Talibanization of Pakistan
Rafi Aamer April 17, 2007
#101 Posted by Tehsinabbasi on April 20, 2007 7:34:29 am
#92 by zeemax
“What is the worst possible do you think these Islamists are going to do you?”
No Sir! You are far ahead of me. I do not consider an Islamist victory to be a forgone conclusion. All the other stake holders i.e. the army, the feudal lord, the politician, the industrialist, the tribal chief are not going to allow to be stepped on by any mullah brigade. This is going to result in a civil war probably worse then what is taking place in Iraq today. I think it is an absolutely essential and worthwhile war if there is any such thing – because we have to know who we are. As you said in your other post …. The unresolved issues from 7th century have to be confronted and resolved one way or the other so that we can at least conjure up a common ethos.
My fear of course is for all our loved ones, especially those who are not stake holders, who are merely trying to eek out a living, they are the ones who will be crushed. Those I would wish to extract.
“What is the worst possible do you think these Islamists are going to do you?”
No Sir! You are far ahead of me. I do not consider an Islamist victory to be a forgone conclusion. All the other stake holders i.e. the army, the feudal lord, the politician, the industrialist, the tribal chief are not going to allow to be stepped on by any mullah brigade. This is going to result in a civil war probably worse then what is taking place in Iraq today. I think it is an absolutely essential and worthwhile war if there is any such thing – because we have to know who we are. As you said in your other post …. The unresolved issues from 7th century have to be confronted and resolved one way or the other so that we can at least conjure up a common ethos.
My fear of course is for all our loved ones, especially those who are not stake holders, who are merely trying to eek out a living, they are the ones who will be crushed. Those I would wish to extract.
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#100 Posted by rafi_aamer on April 20, 2007 7:17:04 am
Re: # 93
Those who consider this ``democracy`` should know that this goes against the very grain of our demands in united India. Consider the fact that Muslim League`s claim in United India was that a permanent minority (i.e. a cultural or ethnic group) should not be forced or coerced by a permanent majority. Non-Muslims in Pakistan were and still are a permanent minority. Hence, for OR to suitably meet the end of the basic principle on which our entire struggle for based, a majority of the minority members should have been sought. Hence we didn`t do to our minorities, what we demanded others to do to us.
Excellent point.
Those who consider this ``democracy`` should know that this goes against the very grain of our demands in united India. Consider the fact that Muslim League`s claim in United India was that a permanent minority (i.e. a cultural or ethnic group) should not be forced or coerced by a permanent majority. Non-Muslims in Pakistan were and still are a permanent minority. Hence, for OR to suitably meet the end of the basic principle on which our entire struggle for based, a majority of the minority members should have been sought. Hence we didn`t do to our minorities, what we demanded others to do to us.
Excellent point.
#99 Posted by Urstruly on April 20, 2007 6:41:25 am
TEXT OF OBJECTIVES RESOLUTION
It is quite apparent from the text of the OR that there is no place for liberal or secular democracy in Pakistan even though the constitution guarantees a government of the people by the people, and for the people. But people have to stay with in the constitutional freedoms.
Please do note the article # 5 where the word ``free`` was deleted (and replaced with ***) from the original text of the OR during Zia era by Junejo assemblies. The reason for erasing the word ``free` was to make it commensurate with he Islamic edicts where minorities have full freedom to exercise and prolesytize their religion but they cannot prolysetize to Muslim subjects of the state. The Quadiani specific ammendments in the Constitution further restricts this freedom for Quadianis, whose religion in essence is the anti-state and ant-constitution.
Here is the text:
1. Whereas sovereignty over the entire universe belongs to Allah Almighty alone and the authority which He has delegated to the State of Pakistan, through its people for being exercised within the limits prescribed by Him is a sacred trust;
This Constituent Assembly representing the people of Pakistan resolves to frame a Constitution for the sovereign independent State of Pakistan;
2. Wherein the State shall exercise its powers and authority through the chosen representatives of the people;
3. Wherein the principles of democracy, freedom, equality, tolerance and social justice as enunciated by Islam shall be fully observed;
4. Wherein the Muslims shall be enabled to order their lives in the individual and collective spheres in accordance with the teachings and requirements of Islam as set out in the Holy Quran and the Sunnah;
5. Wherein adequate provision shall be made for the minorities to *** profess and practice their religions and develop their cultures;
6. Wherein the territories now included in or in accession with Pakistan and such other territories as may hereafter be included in or accede to Pakistan shall form a Federation wherein the units will be autonomous with such boundaries and limitations on their powers and authority as may be prescribed;
7. Wherein shall be guaranteed fundamental rights including equality of status, of opportunity and before law, social, economic and political justice, and freedom of thought, expression, belief, faith, worship and association, subject to law and public morality;
Wherein adequate provisions shall be made to safeguard the legitimate interests of minorities and backward and depressed classes;
8. Wherein the independence of the Judiciary shall be fully secured;
9. Wherein the integrity of the territories of the Federation, its independence and all its rights includ-ing its sovereign rights on land, sea and air shall be safeguarded;
So that the people of Pakistan may prosper and attain their rightful and honored place amongst the nations of the World and make their full contribution towards international peace and progress and happiness of humanity.
#98 Posted by Urstruly on April 20, 2007 6:26:47 am
Re: # 82 Tehsin
``Pray tell me, what religion considers liberty as a virtue? – which is perhaps the most sacred of all American values.``
That is what my argument was in my post that there is no place for liberal democracy in any Muslim polity. The system of values of Muslims i.e their religion dons a ceiling over the liberties and sets the limits. Yes there are consequences for having limited liberties within well defined boundries but then there are also consequences with unlimited liberties with no boundries. One has to weigh them side by side objectively and justly.
The main argument in this article is also that the Objective Resolution in the Constitution of 1973, as its Preamble sets forth the ceiling for the liberties in the democratic state of Pakistan. So at the end of the day the core of the argument turns out to be whether you are with God or against Him. I do not think a hypocritical middle is possible. It is one or the other.
``Pray tell me, what religion considers liberty as a virtue? – which is perhaps the most sacred of all American values.``
That is what my argument was in my post that there is no place for liberal democracy in any Muslim polity. The system of values of Muslims i.e their religion dons a ceiling over the liberties and sets the limits. Yes there are consequences for having limited liberties within well defined boundries but then there are also consequences with unlimited liberties with no boundries. One has to weigh them side by side objectively and justly.
The main argument in this article is also that the Objective Resolution in the Constitution of 1973, as its Preamble sets forth the ceiling for the liberties in the democratic state of Pakistan. So at the end of the day the core of the argument turns out to be whether you are with God or against Him. I do not think a hypocritical middle is possible. It is one or the other.
#97 Posted by majumdar on April 20, 2007 5:18:14 am
Tehsinabbasi sahib,
(A few years ago I was convinced that God had shown us immense mercy when we dodged the bullet. I couldn’t find any justification why America chose Iraq as its next target rather then Pakistan and this despite India’s all out attempt to make this attack happen. )
Becuase sir you have no oil. Plainly speaking, you guys aren`t worth attacking.
Regards
(A few years ago I was convinced that God had shown us immense mercy when we dodged the bullet. I couldn’t find any justification why America chose Iraq as its next target rather then Pakistan and this despite India’s all out attempt to make this attack happen. )
Becuase sir you have no oil. Plainly speaking, you guys aren`t worth attacking.
Regards
#96 Posted by majumdar on April 20, 2007 5:15:23 am
Zeenaji,
(and Indians are the followers of the Ghandi)
Who has told you this? MKG is a matter of ridicule for most Indians. The kind of filthy jokes we used to crack about MKG, doubt if ur friend Manto mian would ever crack about MAJ (pbuh).
Manto mian,
(Pakistan can be an Islamic state based on Islamic principles ... but it cannot discriminate between its citizens on the basis of any religious beliefs... )
What if Islamic belief ( or lets say a religious state based on any particular denomination) requires the state to discriminate between citizens on basis of religious beliefs.
Regards
(and Indians are the followers of the Ghandi)
Who has told you this? MKG is a matter of ridicule for most Indians. The kind of filthy jokes we used to crack about MKG, doubt if ur friend Manto mian would ever crack about MAJ (pbuh).
Manto mian,
(Pakistan can be an Islamic state based on Islamic principles ... but it cannot discriminate between its citizens on the basis of any religious beliefs... )
What if Islamic belief ( or lets say a religious state based on any particular denomination) requires the state to discriminate between citizens on basis of religious beliefs.
Regards
#95 Posted by zeemax on April 20, 2007 3:13:09 am
#89 by Zeena,
That`s an excellent questionnaire. I think it will be a good idea if the Pakistani chowkies make a start by honestly answering this first :)
That`s an excellent questionnaire. I think it will be a good idea if the Pakistani chowkies make a start by honestly answering this first :)
#94 Posted by zeemax on April 20, 2007 3:06:51 am
#87 by rf786
....mix Arab traditions with Islamic edicts?
Like what? An example will help ...
Rgds
....mix Arab traditions with Islamic edicts?
Like what? An example will help ...
Rgds
#93 Posted by MantoLives on April 20, 2007 2:56:31 am
A good article.
The biggest problem/issue with the Objectives Resolution (i.e. ``OR``) was that in the constituent assembly all Muslims except one (Mian Iftikharrudin) voted for the OR and all Non-Muslims voted against it. Those who consider this ``democracy`` should know that this goes against the very grain of our demands in united India. Consider the fact that Muslim League`s claim in United India was that a permanent minority (i.e. a cultural or ethnic group) should not be forced or coerced by a permanent majority. Non-Muslims in Pakistan were and still are a permanent minority. Hence, for OR to suitably meet the end of the basic principle on which our entire struggle for based, a majority of the minority members should have been sought. Hence we didn`t do to our minorities, what we demanded others to do to us.
If we were to ignore this important distinction... yes, then we could argue that it is the democratic right of the majority to choose whatever principles it wishes for its governance. But there is a limit on that as well... i.e. principles of citizenship. Pakistan can be an Islamic state based on Islamic principles ... but it cannot discriminate between its citizens on the basis of any religious beliefs... This is also guaranteed through the OR and the subsequent constitution.
As far as the discussion goes vis a vis reaffirming Allah`s sovereignty over the entire universe is not the basic issue with the document. After all America is one nation under god... but is still a secular state. The issue was the trojan horse of the priestly class through this portion here:
``the authority which He has delegated to the State of Pakistan, through its people for being exercised within the limits prescribed by Him is a sacred trust``
and
Wherein the Muslims shall be enabled to order their lives in the individual and collective spheres in accordance with the teachings and requirements of Islam as set out in the Holy Quran and the Sunnah ;
I think the author has its finger on the real issue i.e. the one sided nature of the OR... but has made a few mistakes... namely:
1. Pakistan was formed as a Dominion and not a Republic.
2. OR beccame the substantive part of the Constitution only in 1985. Before 1985, Objectives Resolution appeared as a part of the preamble. However, please note that preamble is never an enforceable substantive part.
The text of the OR:
Whereas sovereignty over the entire universe belongs to Allah Almighty alone and the authority which He has delegated to the State of Pakistan, through its people for being exercised within the limits prescribed by Him is a sacred trust;
This Constituent Assembly representing the people of Pakistan resolves to frame a Constitution for the sovereign independent State of Pakistan;
Wherein the State shall exercise its powers and authority through the chosen representatives of the people;
Wherein the principles of democracy, freedom, equality, tolerance and social justice as enunciated by Islam shall be fully observed;
Wherein the Muslims shall be enabled to order their lives in the individual and collective spheres in accordance with the teachings and requirements of Islam as set out in the Holy Quran and the Sunnah;
Wherein adequate provision shall be made for the minorities to freely profess and practice their religions and develop their cultures;
Wherein the territories now included in or in accession with Pakistan and such other territories as may hereafter be included in or accede to Pakistan shall form a Federation wherein the units will be autonomous with such boundaries and limitations on their powers and authority as may be prescribed;
Wherein shall be guaranteed fundamental rights including equality of status, of opportunity and before law, social, economic and political justice, and freedom of thought, expression, belief, faith, worship and association, subject to law and public morality;
Wherein adequate provisions shall be made to safeguard the legitimate interests of minorities and backward and depressed classes;
Wherein the independence of the Judiciary shall be fully secured;
Wherein the integrity of the territories of the Federation, its independence and all its rights includ-ing its sovereign rights on land, sea and air shall be safeguarded;
So that the people of Pakistan may prosper and attain their rightful and honored place amongst the nations of the World and make their full contribution towards international peace and progress and happiness of humanity.
The biggest problem/issue with the Objectives Resolution (i.e. ``OR``) was that in the constituent assembly all Muslims except one (Mian Iftikharrudin) voted for the OR and all Non-Muslims voted against it. Those who consider this ``democracy`` should know that this goes against the very grain of our demands in united India. Consider the fact that Muslim League`s claim in United India was that a permanent minority (i.e. a cultural or ethnic group) should not be forced or coerced by a permanent majority. Non-Muslims in Pakistan were and still are a permanent minority. Hence, for OR to suitably meet the end of the basic principle on which our entire struggle for based, a majority of the minority members should have been sought. Hence we didn`t do to our minorities, what we demanded others to do to us.
If we were to ignore this important distinction... yes, then we could argue that it is the democratic right of the majority to choose whatever principles it wishes for its governance. But there is a limit on that as well... i.e. principles of citizenship. Pakistan can be an Islamic state based on Islamic principles ... but it cannot discriminate between its citizens on the basis of any religious beliefs... This is also guaranteed through the OR and the subsequent constitution.
As far as the discussion goes vis a vis reaffirming Allah`s sovereignty over the entire universe is not the basic issue with the document. After all America is one nation under god... but is still a secular state. The issue was the trojan horse of the priestly class through this portion here:
``the authority which He has delegated to the State of Pakistan, through its people for being exercised within the limits prescribed by Him is a sacred trust``
and
Wherein the Muslims shall be enabled to order their lives in the individual and collective spheres in accordance with the teachings and requirements of Islam as set out in the Holy Quran and the Sunnah ;
I think the author has its finger on the real issue i.e. the one sided nature of the OR... but has made a few mistakes... namely:
1. Pakistan was formed as a Dominion and not a Republic.
2. OR beccame the substantive part of the Constitution only in 1985. Before 1985, Objectives Resolution appeared as a part of the preamble. However, please note that preamble is never an enforceable substantive part.
The text of the OR:
Whereas sovereignty over the entire universe belongs to Allah Almighty alone and the authority which He has delegated to the State of Pakistan, through its people for being exercised within the limits prescribed by Him is a sacred trust;
This Constituent Assembly representing the people of Pakistan resolves to frame a Constitution for the sovereign independent State of Pakistan;
Wherein the State shall exercise its powers and authority through the chosen representatives of the people;
Wherein the principles of democracy, freedom, equality, tolerance and social justice as enunciated by Islam shall be fully observed;
Wherein the Muslims shall be enabled to order their lives in the individual and collective spheres in accordance with the teachings and requirements of Islam as set out in the Holy Quran and the Sunnah;
Wherein adequate provision shall be made for the minorities to freely profess and practice their religions and develop their cultures;
Wherein the territories now included in or in accession with Pakistan and such other territories as may hereafter be included in or accede to Pakistan shall form a Federation wherein the units will be autonomous with such boundaries and limitations on their powers and authority as may be prescribed;
Wherein shall be guaranteed fundamental rights including equality of status, of opportunity and before law, social, economic and political justice, and freedom of thought, expression, belief, faith, worship and association, subject to law and public morality;
Wherein adequate provisions shall be made to safeguard the legitimate interests of minorities and backward and depressed classes;
Wherein the independence of the Judiciary shall be fully secured;
Wherein the integrity of the territories of the Federation, its independence and all its rights includ-ing its sovereign rights on land, sea and air shall be safeguarded;
So that the people of Pakistan may prosper and attain their rightful and honored place amongst the nations of the World and make their full contribution towards international peace and progress and happiness of humanity.
#92 Posted by zeemax on April 20, 2007 2:48:20 am
#84 by Tehsinabbasi
But that does not spare us the pain that is coming. So lets get ready to extract as many of our loved ones as we possibly can, before all the borders are sealed.
Tehsinabbasi saheb, why`re you so depressed? What is the worst possible do you think these Islamists are going to do you?
I mean, Abdul Rashid Ghazi (the Hafsa leader) said on TV the other day that his own wife drives and goes to malls etc for shopping. So I guess they will allow women to drive and you can eliminate at-least that from your paranoia. What else?
Can you please come up with a list of your fears so I may attempt to redress those ... :)
But that does not spare us the pain that is coming. So lets get ready to extract as many of our loved ones as we possibly can, before all the borders are sealed.
Tehsinabbasi saheb, why`re you so depressed? What is the worst possible do you think these Islamists are going to do you?
I mean, Abdul Rashid Ghazi (the Hafsa leader) said on TV the other day that his own wife drives and goes to malls etc for shopping. So I guess they will allow women to drive and you can eliminate at-least that from your paranoia. What else?
Can you please come up with a list of your fears so I may attempt to redress those ... :)
#91 Posted by rf786 on April 20, 2007 2:25:17 am
Re: # 88
Mr Zeena,
It seems u have lost it completly............
Mr Zeena,
It seems u have lost it completly............
#90 Posted by Zeena on April 20, 2007 12:01:19 am
If majority of Pakistanis wish to practice their religion and wish to adhere to their own cultural values, then why we call their ways of lives as Talibanization?
This thread itself is height of TALIBANIZATION( in terms of fascism and for holding extreme hatred) towards the ways of life of majority of Pakistani citizens.
Talibanization is a term used for fascism and for dictatorialism, where people wish to control and suppress others beliefs and ways of life.
This article and majority of Indians here are showing the exact form of TALIBANIZATION by choking the rights of majority of Pakistanis to live according to their own belief systems and cultural values........................
These people sitting behind their computers and writting carelessly anything that comes to their confused and lost minds....................they are clueless, just clueless in their own bigot world of Talibanization.
So, from now on I will call them Indian Talibans and fundos.................trying to control chowk with their hatred and pseudo minds..........or rather shallow minds.
These are the people who, if, are asked to go to Pakistan and help 80% of poor and oppressed Pakistanis(living in rural areas) and do something for them, b/c they don`t know any other way, but, to enslave themselves in the trap of feudalism, they will refuse or ignore.................................
Those Pakistanis are deprived of their basic needs...................
Do they have any sympathies for them? No.....
They are here on this anon web site to convince us for their false ideas........and in return what are they getting? Nothing........Just a big laugh.....
They have rather become a laughing stock for us...............
Yes, Pakistan is talibanized...........Yes 100% Pakistanis are Talibanis.....Talibanis, My foot.
On the same note I will say, 100% Indians are Talibanized/jihadis/fundos............
And each and every corner of India is Talibanized.....and this happened not today, but, right from the start , when India got it`s freedom from Goras.........Gandhi`s views were exactly like Talibans...............and Indians are the followers of the Ghandi( The biggest Indian Taliban).............
This thread itself is height of TALIBANIZATION( in terms of fascism and for holding extreme hatred) towards the ways of life of majority of Pakistani citizens.
Talibanization is a term used for fascism and for dictatorialism, where people wish to control and suppress others beliefs and ways of life.
This article and majority of Indians here are showing the exact form of TALIBANIZATION by choking the rights of majority of Pakistanis to live according to their own belief systems and cultural values........................
These people sitting behind their computers and writting carelessly anything that comes to their confused and lost minds....................they are clueless, just clueless in their own bigot world of Talibanization.
So, from now on I will call them Indian Talibans and fundos.................trying to control chowk with their hatred and pseudo minds..........or rather shallow minds.
These are the people who, if, are asked to go to Pakistan and help 80% of poor and oppressed Pakistanis(living in rural areas) and do something for them, b/c they don`t know any other way, but, to enslave themselves in the trap of feudalism, they will refuse or ignore.................................
Those Pakistanis are deprived of their basic needs...................
Do they have any sympathies for them? No.....
They are here on this anon web site to convince us for their false ideas........and in return what are they getting? Nothing........Just a big laugh.....
They have rather become a laughing stock for us...............
Yes, Pakistan is talibanized...........Yes 100% Pakistanis are Talibanis.....Talibanis, My foot.
On the same note I will say, 100% Indians are Talibanized/jihadis/fundos............
And each and every corner of India is Talibanized.....and this happened not today, but, right from the start , when India got it`s freedom from Goras.........Gandhi`s views were exactly like Talibans...............and Indians are the followers of the Ghandi( The biggest Indian Taliban).............
#89 Posted by Zeena on April 19, 2007 11:44:40 pm
There is absolutely NO such thing as Talibanization of Pakistan.......
I believe, there should be a referendum in Pakistan.People should be given following choices.............
#1:- Do they wish implementation of sharia laws?
or
#2:- Do they wish the continuation of current system?
or
#3:- Do they wish a secular state?
or
#4:- Do they wish to ban Islam altogether?
Whatever majority of Pakistanis decide, their decision should be respected.
I believe, there should be a referendum in Pakistan.People should be given following choices.............
#1:- Do they wish implementation of sharia laws?
or
#2:- Do they wish the continuation of current system?
or
#3:- Do they wish a secular state?
or
#4:- Do they wish to ban Islam altogether?
Whatever majority of Pakistanis decide, their decision should be respected.
#88 Posted by Zeena on April 19, 2007 11:39:29 pm
#44 by rf786
Madam rf786
LOL...................carry on with your HIGHLY intellectual posts......hahahaha
Madam rf786
LOL...................carry on with your HIGHLY intellectual posts......hahahaha
#87 Posted by rf786 on April 19, 2007 11:18:09 pm
Re: # 78
Zee Sahib,
{There you go making definitive judgments again. It just makes me believe you don`t even have a hint about what Islam is all about, or what I`m about.}
Believe u me, I have no idea what u r about, and have no immediate need in advancing my very little knowledge of Zeema postings. As for your comments regarding my knowledge regarding Islam, welcome to the widely popular club `judgemental.
Ýaar yeh sub baathein chorain, leave aside these slights, my bad.
What do u think of Muslim thinkers and philosophers who mix Arab traditions with Islamic edicts?
Zee Sahib,
{There you go making definitive judgments again. It just makes me believe you don`t even have a hint about what Islam is all about, or what I`m about.}
Believe u me, I have no idea what u r about, and have no immediate need in advancing my very little knowledge of Zeema postings. As for your comments regarding my knowledge regarding Islam, welcome to the widely popular club `judgemental.
Ýaar yeh sub baathein chorain, leave aside these slights, my bad.
What do u think of Muslim thinkers and philosophers who mix Arab traditions with Islamic edicts?
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