Talibanization of Pakistan

Precisely, Zee, no fair person can have a problem with that, at all. That`s logical and is just what should be expected.

It`s gentlemen like rafi_aamer who need to understand the nature of Jihad or Islam. But you would say, and that would be true, that a soldier can be used without his or her knowing in the least about the nature and the purpose of the flag he is carrying. :)

(My guess is rf786 is not ignorant. He knows his game.)

Given the 60 years of history of Pakistan armed forces, and the number of times they have somersaulted on ideological stances, and not to mention their total disregard for the constitution, it is naive to think that the so-called ``agencies`` have any ideological relationship with the Islamists or Jihadies. From time to time it has been a marriage of convenience, no doubt, but ideologically they are as far apart as Americans were from the Afghan Mujahideen during Soviet era.

Pak Armed forces is the true manifestation of the Military Industrial complex set up on corporate model where members have mob like loyalty to the self interest of organization. This is the mindest that Pak army has inherited from the time when East India Company first established colonies on the coast of Bengal and established their first security forces consisting of locals to save their establishments from the ``decoits``. These security forces wee later transformed into the British Indian Army. The brainwashing that was done to those recruits was so effective that that army had no qualms about butchering their own people. The tradition and mindset still persists. Quaid-e-Azam was the first to realize this cancer and fired the first CinC of Pak Armed forces, General Gracey, on the spot when later refused to take part in the jihad of Kashmir. Had Quaid lived a little bit longer he would have purged the military from officers like Sikandar Mirza, Ayub Khan and others who later destroyed this nation and country.

It is a vicious circle. The NaPak fauj will never accept the dominance of civilian rule and it will do everything in its power to cause the failure of a government of people, by the people and for the people, whether these people are Islamists or atheist/modernists. So anyone who ``partners`` with NaPak fouj assume that it will carry its agenda is merely fooling himself. The ``smart`` people have realized this and joined the club who considers Pakistan as ``halwai ki dukaan, nana jaan ki fateha`` and eat it 24/7.

#62 by zeemax on April 19, 2007 8:16am PT


The blunders go on and the Jihad moves on ... and with a Lincoln`s Inn graduate back in the force!


If you think there is any way the US government will let the paki government free omar sheikh, you`re off-the-paki-deluded-charts deluded...

#66 by Urstruly on April 19, 2007 9:00am PT

maulana urstruly: the paki aam junta is a junkie high on islam and the paki army is the drug dealer..sure, the drug dealer may occasionally indulge in some of his product but he makes his living on peddling his stuff, not keeping it himself...

the junkie-pusher analogy fits perfectly..the drug lords are themselves rarely addicted to their product but the lowest level distributor, in this case the lower levels of the army, are almost always addict...

Re: # 53

{From a religious perspective, everybody is, has been a Muslim?}

Not in the literal sense as implied in your statement, from a theological perspective where God creates everything and is Raab ul Alimeen.

{P.s.: (even Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib)? Even the boy who shot all these virginia tech students? }

Now you are playing with words, surely you have the ability to read and understand what the message explicitly stated.

{rt786 bhai, do you follow a religion or some sort of black magic?}

Whatever may be my choice, it will be mine and not for you or anyone else to judge or decide. My judge is the ONE and only One, nothing to do with little idols made in Taiwan or Afghanistaan.

Re; #58, rafi-aamer,

You have yourself pointed out that from the beginning there has been a desire to make Islam a part of the political life (e.g. Objectives Resoulution). At the same time, there has been a desire for democarcy. You probably think this is a contradiction. Maybe so. But most of the people of Pakistan are not convinced. They are working out the concept in practice.
Maybe they will come to realize that there is an unsurmountable contradiction in the concept of Islamic democracy. They will have to give up either Islam (in public life) or democracy (As someone said, ``selection, not election``).
Or maybe, they will come up with concepts of `Islamic` and `democracy` such that the 2 can work together.
I am rooting for the 2nd option.

Re: # 54

Zee Sahib,

Are you not confusing tribal values with the basic principles of religion? OBL and Mullah Omar both represent the Beduin traditional values, nothing to do with the progressive value system inculcated by Mohammed. Caliph Omar was part o fthe same time capsule as that of the prophet, but these OBL`s, Wahab, Mullah Omer represent obscurantist ideals which are closer to the Ahle Quraish before Islam. Thats my perspective, If iam not wrong, you subscribe to the Taliban style of Islam.

{....I think both Usama and Mullah Umar have modelled themselves after the Caluph Umar Khattab who represented just one facet of Muhammad`s persona.}

Re: # 68

The drug-pusher analogy is correct. However, Islam is not the only drug that military industrial complex pushes. That is the point I was trying to make in my last post. Currently, the Complex is pushing the drug of ``enlightened modernity`` and secularism. As I said, it is a vicious circle people of Pakistan are in. The Islamists (fewer and fewer of them now)think that if the didn`t help military in its ``endeavors`` it will put the scourge of secularism on this country; the modernists on the other hand (more and more of them now) think that the bandwagon of ``enlightened moderation`` will get them to the realization of their wet dreams that that had for the longest time. But in reality, does Miliatry gives a shit to to anyone of these agendas? I think everybody on this forum knows the answer.

rf786

Aap tau naraz ho gaye, even when I did say that unlike Mr. Aamer (what we have seen of him until now), you know your game. One doesn`t have to agree with someone to respect his or her understanding.

``free omar sheikh``

That will not serve anyone`s purpose, arjun. Omar Sheikh will not be hanged. Zee Ustaad understands that, and being the only ustaad on Chowk is willing to explain that to anyone who cares to learn.

(for that matter rf786 too fully understands that, unless he disappoints us by claiming that he doesn`t :))

Re: # 69

rf786

``My judge is the ONE and only One``

why not two or three or four....(just curious.)
wouldn`t it be just a lonely existence otherwise.

Re: # 40

Zeenajee,

Quite franly we Indians dont give two hoots about Pakistan`s talibanization. A Pakistan, Progressive or Talibanized. We couldn`t care less one way or the other. I was just trying to bring contradictions to your views to one of your compatriots.

PS: We will leave you alone, just dont send those Burqa clad women to our Kashmir .....

Re: # 70

``Maybe they will come to realize that there is an unsurmountable contradiction in the concept of Islamic democracy.``

This is an important point. But the realization of this contrdiction was there all the time - whether it is Syed Qutub`s or Syed Moududi`s political philosophy. There has always been a consensus among all Islamists that there is no place for ``liberal or secular democracy`` in an Islamic/Muslim state. Both are mutually exclusive. The concept has always been very clear in the minds of educated Islamists.

There are two components to any democracy -ideological and administrative. The administrative aspect is more like running a municipality - people will need efficient government services no matter what ideology they subscribe to, hence things like healthcare, infrastructure, and various institutions are independent of ideology of the government. But at ideological level, every law that a polity chooses to regulate itself with has its basis in the set of values of that society. This is the social aspect of government. As the definition goes, the laws are merely codification of a value system. A secular society has all laws based on separation of church and state; similarly a society that derives its values from a religion has all social laws based as such. It is absurd to tell a religious society that while their God was correct in giving them individual code of ethics, He could not give them a societal law. Therefore, a society where cousin marriages are considered valid according to the system of values the laws will be made as such. And a society where marriage between two men is a value the marital law will be reflective of that.

But secularism has its contradictions too. By the very nature of it, secularism cannot have a value system as its moral compass. Because all values basically have originated from a religion and in a secular society a case can be made against any value that human beings have worked so hard to establish. So in a secularist society if someone wishes to marry his mother`s corpse, no law can prohibit him. In other words a secular society cannot have a moral compass.

#71 by rf786,

If i am not wrong, you subscribe to the Taliban style of Islam.

There you go making definitive judgments again. It just makes me believe you don`t even have a hint about what Islam is all about, or what I`m about.

But I don`t think I can help you. If you really want to know, ask Kaalchakra, who isn`t a Muslim. Only then you`ll maybe believe him. Not me.

I don`t care whom you believe. As long as you do.

Rgds.

#77 by Urstruly on April 19, 2007 11:27am PT


There are two components to any democracy -ideological and administrative.


So in an Islamic democracy, the islamic part would force the citizens to take a dump just like mo did in the 7th century and the democracy part would be responsible for the sewage system that carries away the crap...?

#65 by kaalchakra,

....knowing in the least about the nature and the purpose of the flag he is carrying. :)...

They all carry the flag. They just don`t know what it represents, but they`ll still do it. They will never turn away. None.

That`s Islam. But you know. :-;)