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In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth

Mohammad Gill April 22, 2007

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listing 176-192   7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17

#285 Posted by khuram on May 1, 2007 3:54:41 am
# 266 by zeemax

yaar, iss sarri wali ka naam kia hai? kahan pe rehti hai...??? !!!!!!!!!!!
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#284 Posted by zeemax on April 30, 2007 11:23:58 pm
#276 by sattar2,

Allah lifts Issa to Himself ... Should we believe this too? How does this jive with “evolution”? ... Perhaps you should review your claims of ``scientific`` Islam ...

I can understand your fascination with the above argument and where it comes from.

In a youtube video that Echoboom posted, your current Mirza Saheb said Issa cannot be in the fourth sky because skies are in seven levels and because at the speed of light it takes 18-20 billion years to reach earth, fourth sky would mean somewhere in the middle and Issa could not be there in just 600 years. When the questioner asked that aren`t prophets free from limitations of time & space and gave `Mairaaj` as an example, he was flummoxed because he couldn`t deny it as false, and kept on harping upon Issa can`t be in the fourth sky and then asked the questioner to sit down.

Is that all there is? Or is there anything else to the mirzai argument?
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#283 Posted by bjkumar on April 30, 2007 10:04:03 pm

#Zeena,

Little sis, in my humble opinion you need to value original creativity and show appreciation for the ORIGINAL contribution of the many interactors here who have actually thought about the subject matter and tried to start a serious dialog going on it.

You are particularly unkind to the author who – in spite of the bland style peculiar to people of his profession – has created this well-intentioned original piece of work for the enjoyment of the READERS.

It is better to value substance over mere form and style. Readers can not live on style alone!

Thank you.

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#282 Posted by parthaab on April 30, 2007 8:43:28 pm
Re: # 280 by Zeena on April 30, 2007 8:28pm PT
``As much as I found height of retardedness in this article and in majority of posts here on this board......

I am impressed to read Farzana Versey`s post #244........

Farzana Versey, she is the best interactor,writer and humanist...........``




But you have nt even read my first few posts here 1-9 or so...maybe you d have a different opinion if you had read them since they were actually the best :-)

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#281 Posted by teshah on April 30, 2007 8:38:04 pm
Re: # 277

Excuse me `Sitta` in Arabic means `six` and not seven - vide ``Six major Hadith collections - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Six major Hadith collections (Arabic: Al-Sihah al-Sittah) are the works of some ... The name ``Al-Sihah al-Sittah`` translates literarly to ``The Six ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_major_Hadith_collections - 27k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this``

My point is why be obsessed with a god which can only speak Arabic when Quran itself says that the prophets always conveyed their message in the language of the nation for which they were sent - vide Sura 14, verse 4.
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#280 Posted by Zeena on April 30, 2007 8:28:08 pm
As much as I found height of retardedness in this article and in majority of posts here on this board......

I am impressed to read Farzana Versey`s post #244........

Farzana Versey, she is the best interactor,writer and humanist...........
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#279 Posted by Zeena on April 30, 2007 8:12:56 pm
#244

By Farzana Versey

(((#244 by FarzanaVersey on April 29, 2007 6:58am PT
Much as it is valid to raise doubts about blind belief, it is a bit disconcerting to watch people completely nullify religion. You cannot dismiss an abstraction like faith (in any sphere, I might add); you may question the negative fallout in terms of wars, fanaticism, terrorism, social and gender inequities perpetrated in its name.

But then these are the curses of the demons that reside in humans of any stripe and ideology.

Some of us who profess ‘non-belief’ tend to get too obsessed about religion and our proselytising is far worse because we claim to be rational. For every ten quotations that talk against religion, there will be 20 more that are pro.

Yes, one would not want someone to shove religion down one’s throat, but then one does not want any ideology to be forced upon us, including the much-touted nationalism.)).....

The best post through out this board. Farzana Versey is no doubt an excellent writer...
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#278 Posted by parthaab on April 30, 2007 5:27:11 pm


I am still trying to understand how `God` as a belief, originated.

While I have always thought it was just a matter of being told so by friends, teachers and especially, relatives, some of the answers on this board by the believers are perplexing.

The proof quoted for Gods existence revolves basically around the same three or four topics...for eg.

1. The boundless atom.

2. How life began years ago, and related topics

3. The inscrutable Universe.

I dont claim to know the answers to the ablve questions, nor does `science`.
To any reasoning mind, this does not mean that a default `super natural` has taken over.

Do religionists have any proof in our everyday lives?
Bottomline is : Why does nt God show himself and clear all doubts?



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#277 Posted by Tehsinabbasi on April 30, 2007 3:07:36 pm
275 by Urstruly on April 30, 2007 1:32pm PT

”The incident that you have mentioned comes from unathenticated or fabricated ahadith. None of the Sihah Sitta (seven most authentic) compendiums of ahadith list those ahadith. For refernce, please see; Tafheem-ul-Qura`n:


http://www.tafheemulquran.org/Tafhim_u/022/surah_all.htm”



You know some thing – I never thought that you would actually lie. I have always taken you to be an intellectually honest person (misguided maybe) but not dishonest. But Man! You say things with such dhurralla, with such conviction that people kind a take your word for it.

But today I was intrigued by your conviction in this matter. So although, it is really hard for me to read Urdu, I did persevere. I used the link that you gave me for tafheem ul quran, please check for yourself page 240 where the whole incident is clearly mentioned. The details are a bit different from mine but the incident is the same. Let me translate it for others. This is the direct translation from tafheem ul quran.

“The case as is related is that the Prophet developed a desire and a wish that if ayahs of Quran were revealed to him which could lessen the opposition and the hate that the polytheists felt, may be they could come closer to Islam. Or at least it should lessen their opposition to Islam. This desire was only in his heart when he during a gathering of the Quraish started getting the prophetic message it was Sura-e-Najam. While he was reciting it suddenly he uttered the words “THESE HIGH RANKED GODDESSES, THERE BLESSINGS ARE DEFINITELY NEEDED” beyond this he continued reciting Sura-e-Najam. At the end of the Sura when he went into sijdah all the Quraish the mushiriqeen as well as muslimeen went into sijdah together.

The polytheists said that now they had no dispute left with Muhammad. We also say that God is the creator and the giver, but these help us and our well wishers. That evening Gabriel came and said; what have you done? I never brought these two verses. This caused the Prophet great anguish and God revealed verse 8 Sura Banu Israel. (I checked the Quran for this - something is wrong with this reference because this verse does not refer to this incident). This continued to be a source of pain and anguish for the Prophet till this current verse was revealed where God said that this is not the first time this happened to one of his messengers.

The results of this event were far reaching because the Quraish and the muslimeen had all performed a sijdah together. The emigrants who had gone to Abbysinia heard that peace had been declared between the Prophet and the polytheist of Mecca. A lot of them returned back. But upon return they discovered that the news of compromise was false, the enmity between Islam and kufr continued.

This event is described in the tafseers of Ibn e jareed, ibn e saad, al wakidi, musa bin uqbah, ibn e ishaq and ibn e rabi hatim …………..etc.”

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#276 Posted by sattar2 on April 30, 2007 2:53:10 pm

Urstruly (#275),

This too is from your web-site … and discusses Issa-in-the-sky!

Click on the link below.
Use the drop menu to go to page031 (verse 55)

Click [Allah lifts Issa to Himself – 3:55]

Should we believe this too?
How does this jive with “evolution”?
What does dr. Israr Ahmad think??

Perhaps you should review your claims of ``scientific`` Islam ...
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#275 Posted by Urstruly on April 30, 2007 1:32:27 pm
Re: # 274

The incident that you have mentioned comes from unathenticated or fabricated ahadith. None of the Sihah Sitta (seven most authentic) compendiums of ahadith list those ahadith. For refernce, please see; Tafheem-ul-Qura`n:


http://www.tafheemulquran.org/Tafhim_u/022/surah_all.htm


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#274 Posted by Tehsinabbasi on April 30, 2007 1:12:25 pm
FACT CHECK

#268 by hamidm2

2. you claim that the arabs had added 360 dieties to al-lah, but isn`t it true that muhammad (pbuh and his camel) had intially okayed worshiping al-lah`s three daughters before al-lah disowned them ...... what happened ?”

#269 by Urstruly

“Ans 2;

This is false accusation and an outright lie - an insult to the people who sacrificed their lives, families, and well being for the cause of Monotheism.”

What Hamid has referred to are called the Satanic verses , which is precisely the title and the topic of the book Satanic Verses by Rushdie. I am not a 100% certain, but I believe it was Abu Sufyan himself who had gone to the Apostle of God for a compromise. The Quraish and all the people of Mecca would give up all their Gods and Goddesses – clean out the whole Kabah, worship only Allah if he would only allow his 3 daughters the Goddesses al-Lat, al-Uzza and Manat to remain in the Kabah.

The Prophet waited for a revelation which came and it approved inclusion of these Goddesses. Actually they were referred in these verses as “al-Gharaniq al-ula” (the high birds). The Quraish were relieved that they could now get back to there customary pilgrim trade as a unified people, but that was not to be.

Next time the Quraish saw the Prophet, the compromise had been abrogated. Gabriel had come down and revealed that the earlier verses were not from God but actually from Satan who had disguised himself as Gabriel. Thus these verses of the Quran were abrogated and actually there is mention of the 3 Goddesses in Sura 53:19-20. The abrogation was also confirmed in the Quran with Surah 22:52.

“Never sent We a messenger or a prophet before thee but when He recited (the message) Satan proposed (opposition) in respect of that which he recited thereof. But Allah abolisheth that which Satan proposeth. Then Allah establisheth His revelations. Allah is Knower, Wise;”


So the incident did occur. It did cause uproar in Mecca. It was abrogated.
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#273 Posted by echoboom on April 30, 2007 12:22:10 pm
While the Dogs howl, the Caravaan moves on


to secularoons, munafiquoons, murtadoons, and liberaloons:

suun toa saheeh jahaan meiN hai teraa fasaana kya
Kehtee hai tujh ko khalque-Khudaa ghaibaana kyaa


tr: Hark! What is the opinion of one and all around the world
Hear! what they say about you, when you are not listening



Ameer Ali: Islam`s coming renaissance will rise in the West



  • A wave of rationalism is spreading from emigre Muslim intellectuals

  • April 30, 2007

IN the minds of many Muslims, an imagined West is the source of all or most of the problems afflicting the world of Islam. Similarly, in the West, an imagined Islam, purposefully structured and popularly propagated, has created a perception that this religion is a threat to Western civilisation. Between these mutually exclusive mind-sets a new phenomenon is emerging in the real West, laying the foundations for a new wave of Islamic rationalism in the 21st century.


The Islamic resurgence of the post-1970s strengthened the hands of the religious orthodoxy and engendered the spectre of political Islam but failed to rekindle the spirit of intellectual rationalism that once pushed Islam to the frontiers of science and modernity. That failure was compounded and worsened by the rise of tyrannical regimes in the Muslim world. The absence of democracy and lack of popular support forced these regimes to look for legitimacy elsewhere.

By championing the cause of religious orthodoxy of the dominant variety in each context, these regimes masqueraded as champions of popular and populist Islam. Any intellectual pursuit that threatened this state-mullah alliance was aggressively curtailed. In Egypt, in Pakistan, in Syria, and in many other Muslim countries Muslim intellectuals who challenged populist Islam faced condemnation not only by the religious hardliners but also by the secular elite that governed these countries.



One happy outcome of this tragic situation was the voluntary exodus of Muslim intellectuals to the West. From an inhospitable environment of political tyranny and ideological oppression Muslim scholars migrated to find refuge in the West, where the mind enjoys more freedom to think, debate and express. As a result, the migrant Muslim intellectuals are now producing a new genre of publications, many of which are questioning centuries-old interpretations of the primary texts in Islam. A new era of ijtihad (independent thinking) rooted in scientific, objective reasoning is spreading from the West and is beginning to make its mark in the Muslim mind-set.



These intellectuals are not necessarily religious scholars by training, like the graduates from al-Azhar University in Egypt or Zeituna from Tunis or Qarawiyin in Morocco, but scholars trained in other fields such as social sciences, medicine, engineering, physical sciences and law.



For example, Mohammed Arkoun, an Algerian Muslim, is an emeritus professor of Islamic thought at the Sorbonne, Paris, who approaches the Koran and other classical texts in Islam from historical, social, psychological and anthropological angles. The methodology of his research, the sharpness of his arguments and conclusions of his writings are dynamite to traditional Islam. Laleh Bakhtiar, a Chicago-based American female convert to Islam, is not a classically trained Arabic scholar, but has translated the Koran after years of research and is questioning the conventional meanings of some of the Koranic concepts.



Bassam Tibi, a political scientist, who writes mostly in German, applies sociological and anthropological theories to study Islam and finds that the cause of Muslim underdevelopment lies not in the West but in Islam as understood and preached by the orthodox clerics. Amina Wadud, an Afro-American Muslim convert from Bethesda, Maryland in the US, has a PhD in Islamic Studies and Arabic from the University of Michigan and is pioneering the research on gender relationship in Islam and retheorising Koranic hermeneutics. Abdelwahab El-Affendi, a former Sudanese diplomat based in London, published Who Needs an Islamic State? in 1991, in which he questions the theological arguments advanced by the protagonists of an Islamic caliphate.



And finally, Abdullahi An-Naim, a law professor at Emory University in Atlanta, Georgia, questions the inadequacies of Islamic sharia and its suitability for a pluralistic society.




There are too many of these scholars to enumerate and the number is increasing. All these cases underline the revolutionary thinking among Muslim intellectuals that is setting the pace for a new wave of Islamic rationalism radiating from the West.



Even writers from Muslim countries who are afraid to publish their works at home are doing so abroad. For example, The Book and the Quran (Koran): A Contemporary Interpretation by Muhammad Shahrur, a civil engineer from Syria, is banned in his country. He argues that human understanding of the Koran is relative and changing and that it requires the continuous exercise of human reason.



His appeal to apply tools of modern epistemology and objective scientific reasoning to the study the Koran is anathema to hardline Islamists. Similarly, Hassan Hanafi, an Egyptian professor of philosophy, is well known for his rationalist views on Islam throughout the intellectual circles in the US, Japan, Germany and Morocco but is frowned upon by the al-Azhar establishment in Egypt. In short, scholars such as Shahrur and Hanafi have become intellectual prisoners in their own countries.



The situation is changing fast. The internet and electronic communication technology have revolutionised the production and distribution of knowledge. Sources of information that were only remotely accessible to a selected few are readily available to many at the click of a mouse. Inquisitive Muslim minds do not have to wait for a cleric to arrive for consultation on theological issues. With the help of the internet any verse or chapter of the Koran and any sayings of the Prophet can be accessed from multiple sources and the reader has the luxury of choosing from among a variety of interpretations, meanings and elaborations.



This revolution in information gathering has become a subversive tool and is eroding the power base of traditional clerics. The authority of the pulpit is collapsing by the hour. The traditional argument that one should be a trained Islamic scholar or an imam to interpret the Koran does not carry weight any more. There is a rising tension between the traditional guardians of Muslim orthodoxy and a new crop of secular educated Muslims, many of whom are better equipped with advanced methodological tools to handle the primary religious texts. An Islamic spring is dawning from the West.



While Western governments and the media are too preoccupied with fighting militant Islam and its terrorist offshoot, the more positive developments that are taking place within the Muslim intellectual world are being ignored. The wave of critical thought emanating from a new breed of Muslim scholars in the West is one of those positive changes. It is a good omen for a long-awaited Islamic renaissance. The hated West has become the surrogate mother of this wave of Islamic rationalism.



Ameer Ali, a former chairman of the Muslim Community Reference Group, is a visiting fellow at the business school at Murdoch University in Perth.
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#272 Posted by hamidm2 on April 30, 2007 11:47:16 am
Re: # 270

bjkumar,

..... like you, i am really perplexed now ....... i had heard this story about hazrat adam (pbuh and his dinosaur) being born in sri lanka, but i always thought it was a rumor started by devious indians to establish their credentials as part of the human race (a myth that george allen tried to dispel just recently) .......... but now that urstruly has confirmed this story, i will have to review my beliefs .............

...... i think there is some merit to your thesis that adam belonged to a non-human species, which would explain the antics of some of the interactors on chowk ......... but i am sure urstruly and other believers will find that idea distasteful and ground for immediate beheading ........
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#271 Posted by hamidm2 on April 30, 2007 11:35:30 am
Re: # 263

jay,

..... i am sorry you are upset at our total disdain for the `more evolved and complete` eastern religions ....... let me assure you that we find all religions, including the monotheistic abrahamic faiths, equally disgusting and not worthy of serious discussion .......... having an ``intellectual discourse`` about religion is like discussing the role of the tooth fairy in modern dentistry ...............
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#270 Posted by bjkumar on April 30, 2007 11:27:05 am

#269 Urstruly

Dear sir, thank you for the information. I was unaware of the facts you quoted in Answer 1.

I do seek one small clarification, though.

Since virtually all the Sri Lankan we see on TV have a deep dark complexion, how did the change in the color shades come about?

Or get effected?

Since Mian Adam was the only one of his kind and he would have been deeply brown - and the only other creatures of the less-than-brown variety would have been other-than-human species, you don`t think....?!!

Hmmm.......!!

Perhaps a candidate topic for a Dr. Gill article down the road.

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listing 176-192   7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17

Interact Index

    #461 teshah
    #460 sattar2
    #459 Urstruly
    #458 Urstruly
    #457 sattar2
    #456 Urstruly
    #455 sattar2
    #454 sattar2
    #453 Urstruly
    #452 sattar2
    #451 Urstruly
    #450 sattar2
    #449 Folio
    #448 Urstruly
    #447 sattar2
    #446 Folio
    #445 Folio
    #444 sattar2
    #443 Urstruly
    #442 sattar2
    #441 teshah
    #440 sattar2
    #439 sattar2
    #438 sattar2
    #437 zeemax
    #436 Tehsinabbasi
    #435 Folio
    #434 khuram
    #433 Zeena
    #432 zeemax
    #431 khuram
    #430 zeemax
    #429 teshah
    #428 Zeena
    #427 khuram
    #426 zeemax
    #425 khuram
    #424 khuram
    #423 Zeena
    #422 zeemax
    #421 bjkumar
    #420 bjkumar
    #419 bjkumar
    #418 bjkumar
    #417 khuram
    #416 khuram
    #415 echoboom
    #414 sattar2
    #413 Folio
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    #411 echoboom
    #410 Urstruly
    #409 khuram
    #408 khuram
    #407 dost_mittar
    #406 sattar2
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    #403 sattar2
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    #401 Urstruly
    #400 sattar2
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    #398 dost_mittar
    #397 khuram
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    #395 echoboom
    #394 zeemax
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    #392 khuram
    #391 khuram
    #390 Urstruly
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    #388 Zeena
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    #248 Urstruly
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    #243 freethinker
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    #236 subhashjoshi
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    #211 bjkumar
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    #174 teshah
    #173 Zeena
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    #169 Tehsinabbasi
    #168 Urstruly
    #167 rafi_aamer
    #166 KaalChakra
    #165 Tehsinabbasi
    #164 khuram
    #163 rafi_aamer
    #162 Zeena
    #161 khuram
    #160 echoboom
    #159 Urstruly
    #158 GT
    #157 malikjahanzeb
    #156 Urstruly
    #155 khurram
    #154 KaalChakra
    #153 bjkumar
    #152 GT
    #151 subhashjoshi
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    #149 subhashjoshi
    #148 subhashjoshi
    #147 khurram
    #146 khuram
    #145 paradox
    #144 bjkumar
    #143 samar1982
    #142 Zeena
    #141 parthaab
    #140 Tehsinabbasi
    #139 samar1982
    #138 samar1982
    #137 dost_mittar
    #136 Tehsinabbasi
    #135 Tehsinabbasi
    #134 sattar2
    #133 Folio
    #132 zeemax
    #131 GT
    #130 GT
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    #128 echoboom
    #127 echoboom
    #126 Folio
    #125 sattar2
    #124 hamidm2
    #123 echoboom
    #122 echoboom
    #121 Folio
    #120 zeemax
    #119 echoboom
    #118 Urstruly
    #117 zeemax
    #116 Urstruly
    #115 KaalChakra
    #114 zeemax
    #113 hamidm2
    #112 hamidm2
    #111 KaalChakra
    #110 samar1982
    #109 dost_mittar
    #108 Folio
    #107 Folio
    #106 Folio
    #105 Urstruly
    #104 Folio
    #103 Ranjit
    #102 samar1982
    #101 Ranjit
    #100 Zeena
    #99 khuram
    #98 khuram
    #97 masadi
    #96 Tehsinabbasi
    #95 malikjahanzeb
    #94 rahul_capri
    #93 teshah
    #92 dullabhatti
    #91 malikjahanzeb
    #90 sattar2
    #89 DrDr
    #88 GT
    #87 malikjahanzeb
    #86 asfand
    #85 GT
    #84 rafi_aamer
    #83 echoboom
    #82 paradox
    #81 KaalChakra
    #80 dost_mittar
    #79 GT
    #78 Folio
    #77 GT
    #76 Urstruly
    #75 Folio
    #74 rafi_aamer
    #73 rafi_aamer
    #72 sattar2
    #71 paradox
    #70 GT
    #69 GT
    #68 Urstruly
    #67 echoboom
    #66 sattar2
    #65 Urstruly
    #64 sattar2
    #63 GT
    #62 drsohail
    #61 hamidm2
    #60 Urstruly
    #59 GT
    #58 rafi_aamer
    #57 GT
    #56 Kulharee
    #55 rafi_aamer
    #54 rafi_aamer
    #53 delhiwala
    #52 hamidm2
    #51 Tehsinabbasi
    #50 Kulharee
    #49 Urstruly
    #48 GT
    #47 khurram
    #46 GT
    #45 Kulharee
    #44 khurram
    #43 khurram
    #42 Kulharee
    #41 rafi_aamer
    #40 FarzanaVersey
    #39 FarzanaVersey
    #38 khuram
    #37 khuram
    #36 Kulharee
    #35 khurram
    #34 freethinker
    #33 khuram
    #32 hamidm2
    #31 samar1982
    #30 MantoLives
    #29 AikThought
    #28 zeemax
    #27 Zeena
    #26 Ranjit
    #25 masadi
    #24 Tehsinabbasi
    #23 malikjahanzeb
    #22 rafi_aamer
    #21 freethinker
    #20 Folio
    #19 rafi_aamer
    #18 mamoon
    #17 freethinker
    #16 rafi_aamer
    #15 paradox

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