In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth

Re: # 268

Ans 1:

The first human being who descended to earth from heavens, who was the first Prophet and father of all human beings, including all Prophets was Adam (pbuh). It is a consensus among Abrahamic scholars that the land where he set foot the very first time was Sirandeep, which is now called the island of Sri Lanka. This makes Adam (pbuh) a Tamil or a Sinhali instead of an Arab. Not quite Indian but close.

Ans 2;

This is false accusation and an outright lie - an insult to the people who sacrificed their lives, families, and well being for the cause of Monotheism.

Re: # 264

urstruly,

a couple of quick questions:

1. i can understand god`s aversion for india and indians, but of the 124,000 prophets (pbut and their camels) that you claim he sent down, can you name two or three (other than mirza ghulam ahmed) who descended in india ?

2. you claim that the arabs had added 360 dieties to al-lah, but isn`t it true that muhammad (pbuh and his camel) had intially okayed worshiping al-lah`s three daughters before al-lah disowned them ...... what happened ?

............ i don`t know much about hindooism, but i seriously doubt that any sane hindoo not ravaged by the long term effects of vegetarianism, actually believes that their god had an elephant nose .............. their praying to an ugly stone sculpture is just as silly as your praying to a mysterious black meteorite ...... so please cut them some slack !

.... actually four others are competing too .... is it the Barbadian who has it for the moment? LoL ...

Jay yaar ... don`t be so highly strung ...

Tell me what`s wrong with this sari? The circle says what`s wrong!


But is it really?

What`s wrong is that the first Pakistani flag is most prominent in undisputed control of her right ... ahem .. while Indian and Britain are competing for the `sheesahy ka ghar!`` and another Pakistani flag has a choice piece while the second Indian flag is still struggling somewhere around her feet ...

Isn`t it? :)

Re: # 263

It is great injustice to consider the insults of atheists to your religion as Muslim insults just because that who insulted your religion claims to be a Pakistani.

Re: # 260

Since you asked the question referring to ``Abraham`s religion``, I will try to answer your question from the persepctive of Islam. First of all your contention is not right that Eastern religions do not enter into the Islam`s discourse and thought process. But before I get to that let me make this very clear that Islam only treats a religion as a valid religion as long as it promotes Monotheism with no ifs, ands, or buts - no dualty, no trinity, and no pentagon. Allah, Khuda, Bhagwan, or God is the Only God there is. Having said that, Islam do recognize the concept of un-adulterated Monotheism in not only Hinduism, but Confucianism and Zorastorianism as well. According to the Islamic belief system Allah has sent approximately 124,000 Prophets to every nation of the world who delivered the message of Monotheism to that group of humanity in different times. That is the reason in almost every religion of the world there exists the concept of One Supreme being. We also see that around the globe the development process of human intellect has not been uniform. From time to time one group of people rises above others and then descends down into obscurity. Not only that but some preimitive societies still exist where concept of Monotheism is at very basic level. So it is my assumption that the message from God to any particular society is tailor made to appeal to the level of intelect of that time. The corruption of message is inherent in human nature. Therefore, even after Moses and Jesus (pbu them both) strictly preached monothism, the corruption did occur. for example, it was not that the Arabs before our Holy Prophet (pbuh) had forgoten Allah but they added 360 others dieties as well.

As far as the question about facing the K`aba during prayers is concerned, please appreciate the difference from idol worship. In idol worship, as far as I understand, the worshiper does not really worship the idol but he considers idol as the likeness of a diety. In comparison, Ka`ba is only a marker, no more no less, and does not present likeness or any association with anything. It is a symbol for direction, so that all Muslims around the world have uniformity in offering a ritual.

#261..
YEAH! get it off your chest...be happy!
This is like seeing the hippies or the ``new churches`` and completely escaping the humanitarian aspects of christianity...or just looking at the antics of the bearded zealots and mistaking them for actions of ``all true believers``!

Have you ever even read any one of the 4 darsanas i mentioned?
Patanjali`s yoga sutras are easily available..provided one has the will and the open mind..
your ridicule only proves you have ``already made up your mind``.

[It is also the ridicule uneducated guys heap on educated ones..``it is all so complicated and fruitless..this education...apni deen hi kafi hai...etc etc...beats me how people pompously make fun of unrelated things just to hide their indecurities].

Often one comes across pakistanis (& some dumb indians too) questioning indian space achievements saying why not feed the poor instead!! The verisame guys will shoo away a poor beggar saying ``saalon ko gandi aadat lag gayee hai!!``

secondly these 6 ways of thought predate the ``downfall`` of most hindu thought as apparent today..(varnashram jati vyavastha etc).
Though the 4 castes find mention in the scriptures, we strangely find the lowest of the lowlies getting married to kings and producing mighty offspring! (King bharata`s extraction is quite strange..to say the least, and so too the ``glorified`` pandavas who were born ``out of wedlock``!
The composer of the ramayana was Valmiki...a ``koli``! (fisherman).

One of the queens of the mahabharata was matsyagandha..a lowly fisherwoman! (but of great beauty..THAT being the equaliser!!

I was not talking of sadhus my dear!

I was talking of high level secular thought that could even question the need of and existence of God!!

Do read any upanishada if you chance to get it, very intellectually stimulating.

There are many (108?) the brihad-aranyaka, the mandukya, the prashna, the , the ka-tha
the shwetashwtar..

I was hoping people like you could hold intellectual discourse without going down to ``street level``.

But then this is chowk...and this ``knee jerk`` reaction to ``pagan faiths`` ..the ``playing to the islamic gallery``..is to be expected..

Bravado..rough language..ma-behen expletives...all to be expected..Afterall that is how ``macho martial muslims`` are supposed to despatch ``meddlesome hindus``...

Intolerance of all things except islam is also to be expected..

So expecting any cool inellectual dialog too would be unrealistic..

My mistake entirely ..
Jayen

Subhash Joshi Saab,

Thanks for the link. I read Mahabharata (all 18 Parvas) in childhood. I shud read it again in full. It`s it`s the greatest epic of this world.

Re: # 260

jay,

..... hindooism and other more ``more evolved and complete`` eastern religions are too complicated for the simple-minded followers of abrahamic faiths - so please don`t confuse us ........... on the other hand, when one looks at the naked sadhus with ashes in their hair, elephant-nosed gods riding rats and monkey kings with tails on fire, one has to doubt the statement that these eastern religions are `more evolved and complete` ........ to an uninformed outsider, hindooism seems to be something dreamed up by a bunch of happy folks under the influence of hallucinogens ! .......... however, i will admit it seems to be lot less harmful than stuff dreamed up by delusional jews and bedouins wandering in the desert ..........

Hi, all
What surprises me is when people like the author (abrahm`s religions) write, they totally exclude eastern religions that are more evolved and complete!
To their minds even when attempting scientefic analysis (meaning open thought), these easter older philosophies are not even worth a mention.
They will mention aristotle in passing ..may be because ``arab`` thought did have ``arastu`` in its ambit, but will take extreme care ``not to loose caste`` & ``credibility`` by mentioning Hindu and Buddhist thought!

the hindus have 6 systems of thought ranging from completely agnostic to monotheistic ``adwait`` (non-dual).

The sankhya / nyaya / vaisheshika / mimansa and yoga darshanas (to mention 4) are very advanced ``secular`` philosophies completely delinked from a dogmatic belief in God.

So is Buddhism! It actually is silent on the ``bearded angry (worship none else but me) patriarchal and ``jamindari hegemon`` of a god!!

The Riga-veda (hiranya-garbha sukta) actually questions the very standard concept of god as in the abrahmaic religions.

It says that if the gods ``existed``, it logically means at some time they ``did not exist`` and at some time they ``will not exist`` ...as existence and non-existence are always tied together as dependent duality.

like night & day / light & dark / living & dead / young & old.

Obviously a god cannot be ``reduced`` to ``fit`` the description of the biblical / koranic concept of god!

A god can NEVER be vengeful, if creation and harmony are the objectives!

A god can never have divisions (brahmin/chandaal, kafir/momeen) etc.

The sukta then deduces that there was / is and will be something primordia that is perforce without beginning or end! (The eternal truth).

It has to be multi all...multi dim, multi faceted, all pervading, all knowing all seeing etc etc etc ..

And yes..it is genderless! because GOD cannot be bound in the shackles of Gender!!

For purpose of simplifying such an indescribable entity, the dwaitawadis came up with the purusha-prakriti (ideator / executor) duality.

Common Hindus follow a multiplicity of gods...To those that ``dont believe`` in statues, why this fixation to ``destroy`` them? because logically active hate is just the other side of active belief!! it signifies attachment to statues.

I always ask muslims ..why this need to face the kaaba while praying? Is it not a form of statue worship? (attachment to a physical object!!).

No clear answer to that question has come my way except hot air and expletives that dont count anything to me.

Would have loved if the author had been more ``open & inclusive`` in his scope.

Jayen

#258
Re;-imransuhail sahib

Excellent!!!
Excellent!!!
Excellent!!!
Post.

``If God is truly unknowable why does humanity spend its entire existence trying to decipher him? Isn’t that what religion is``

<<<<<<<<<<

religion is the spiritual part of one`s life style. The understanding that there is a supernatural being who created all that exists and trying to implement the creators commandments in ones lifestyle so as to be deseving of his reward in the next life. NO religion (no poppular ones atleast) tries to decipher God. Its just stupid... God is known through reasoning and signs. God himslef tells humanity what his few attributes are so that humans might have an idea of him. By definition God cannot be explained to any human due to lack of the human intellect and the inablility of human languages to convey such a message.

The most cmoprehensive explination of God in religious scripture is: God is one, he is the eternal and everlasteing, he doesnt give birth nor was he given birth to, there is no likeness (or example) of him.

Logic tells us that IF something is infinite it cannot be seen. as light needs to bounce off a boundary to be percieved. similarly cannot fe felt or tested or proved etc. It is by definition. No misleading here.

``Is there anything beyond time and space?`` <<<<< such questions have already been answered :) ... stephen hawkings rightly says that since what ever is outside the universe (or multiverse) cannot to experienced and by definition the universe is a closed system therefore whatever is outside the universe is irrelevant and one can say that nothing outside it exists FOR US becuase we can never experince it.


comming to the issue of proving something by science... science works on rational thinking based on known variables. If my laws in wet and my house is wet when i wake up... id say it rained for sure.... not knowing that the fire-man i pissed off last week had showered my house. science cannot always answer everything.... the filure of certain seemilngly perfect theories again and again are proof that science is not perfect and will probaly never be. so how can something impoerfect explain perfection?

when will science explain charge or force??? on a fundamental leve.... maybe never, as we have used these basic things without understanding them to build the buildings of science which will fall down everytime some new discovery is made. ``The unified theory of everything`` will continue to elude sciuentists for a long time (if not forever)

#245 Hamidm2

Stop gushing, my dear! If you and those other chowk fat-cats had been more forthcoming with that wallet - instead of sinking all its contents into the coffers of the Eatallofus Townses of the world, this whole drama of injured withdrawl in stages followed by the equally riveting injured reentry in stages would have been absolutely unnecessary!

Re: # 253

Hamidm Sahib:

I would love to read your journey from among the believers (if not a believer) to believing in beyond belief.

Farazana:

A belief system is not open to analysis. It needs to be accepted. Your analysis is beyond belief.

God is the best imagination of man. Abstractions can manifest in one messenger, one book, or many idols. For some, good old Bertrand, and Albert not withstanding, an abstraction is a way to think beyond.

Re: # 244

FarzanaVersey

``He says, “religion is like flatulence - just because a lot of people suffer from it is no excuse to stink up the place (HamidM)”

This reminds me of an episode with a niece of mine who was preparing for B.A. (English) Exam. She brought a list of usage of English Idioms to be checked by me. I saw the list in which the very first idiom `To break out`, meaning `Phel jaana in Urdu` was used as below:

``Islam has broken out in America``

I said to her, ``It is of course a very factual use of the idiom you have made, dear, but it needs to be a bit explicit by adding, for instance, the phrase, `like aids`.``

`HOLLY KORAN`

``Slay them wherever you find them...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God`s religion reigns supreme.`` (Surah 2:190-)

``Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it.`` (Surah 2:216)

``Men are tempted [in this life] by the lure of women...far better is the return of God. Say: `Shall I tell you of better things than these, with which the righteous shall be rewarded by their Lord? Theirs shall be gardens watered by running streams, where they shall dwell for ever: wives of perfect chastity...`` (Surah 3:14, 15)

``The only true faith in God`s sight is Islam.`` (Surah 3:19)




`HOLLY BIBLE`

The LORD is a jealous God, filled with vengeance and wrath. He takes revenge on all who oppose him and furiously destroys his enemies! The LORD is slow to get angry, but his power is great, and he never lets the guilty go unpunished. He displays his power in the whirlwind and the storm. The billowing clouds are the dust beneath his feet. At his command the oceans and rivers dry up, the lush pastures of Bashan and Carmel fade, and the green forests of Lebanon wilt. In his presence the mountains quake, and the hills melt away; the earth trembles, and its people are destroyed. Who can stand before his fierce anger? Who can survive his burning fury? His rage blazes forth like fire, and the mountains crumble to dust in his presence. The LORD is good. When trouble comes, he is a strong refuge. And he knows everyone who trusts in him. But he sweeps away his enemies in an overwhelming flood. He pursues his foes into the darkness of night. (Nahum 1:2-8 NLT)

If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)

All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

If a man commits adultery with another man`s wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

A priest`s daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)