In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth
Mohammad Gill April 22, 2007
#429 Posted by teshah on May 5, 2007 7:06:37 pm
Re: # 382
khuram
Well done dear! Keep it up. In fact we also need people like Zeena and Zeemax who represent a childish mindset which can exist only in an obscurantist make-believe world. I wonder their only objection against Ahmadies is why they call themselves Muslim.
I personally found Ahmedies very good people and wonder why they called themselves Muslim, which is at best an ambiguous term as per famous Munir Inquiry Report.
What I personally found anything objectionable against them was when I saw in Rabwah the plaque of `Ummulmomineen` fixed on a grave. The grave was of Ms Bashir, wife of Khalifah II of Ahmadies, if rightly recollect. But strange enough no epithet of `Abulmomineen` I found recorded on the grave of her husband, Mirza Bashir, Khalifa II of Ahmadies.
What does this mean? Were Ahmadi Momineens also `fatherless`?
khuram
Well done dear! Keep it up. In fact we also need people like Zeena and Zeemax who represent a childish mindset which can exist only in an obscurantist make-believe world. I wonder their only objection against Ahmadies is why they call themselves Muslim.
I personally found Ahmedies very good people and wonder why they called themselves Muslim, which is at best an ambiguous term as per famous Munir Inquiry Report.
What I personally found anything objectionable against them was when I saw in Rabwah the plaque of `Ummulmomineen` fixed on a grave. The grave was of Ms Bashir, wife of Khalifah II of Ahmadies, if rightly recollect. But strange enough no epithet of `Abulmomineen` I found recorded on the grave of her husband, Mirza Bashir, Khalifa II of Ahmadies.
What does this mean? Were Ahmadi Momineens also `fatherless`?
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#428 Posted by Zeena on May 5, 2007 6:51:38 pm
#425/427 khuram sahib
Thanks for your answers. Now I have more clear concept of this new cult called mirzaism.
But, my question is still there.......Why Mr.Mirza invented this new cult? There was absolutely NO need of that cult.
Yes, if,( as you posted) MrMirza was a scholar, then he could have remained scholar, but, there was NO need of announcing that he was mesiah or Jesus Christ or a prophet....That was the main reason Mirzaism is not considered Islam.
After reading all your posts thoroughly, in my pov, Mirzais is a separate cult or religion than Islam. Yes, the biggest mistake that Mr.Mirza did was to use Islam and Quran as his basic weapons and twisted them to invent a new cult or religion. It would be better for him NOT to use Islam or Quran as the basis of his ideology.
Mr.Mirza , if, would have invented his own ideology without using the clutches of Islam, he would have have had been more respectful among others.
What he did was a terrible blunder. I do not think this man was intellignet to use his own mind rather than twisting Quranic ideology to suit his mind. He reminds of of some ignorant Mullahs who have had been abusing Quran by twisting Quranic verses for their own convenience.
Now, as he claimed to be the messiah or prophet or jesus christ....question is, why he and his new religion never got accepted among majority of Muslims?
Only he was able to make few disciples......
Almost all Muslim world rejected his twisted teachings. And did not recognize him as a prophet or messiah or jesus christ. You know why? b/c no one is stupid to follow him blindly while knowing the facts.......thanks for your feedback, though.
Thanks for your answers. Now I have more clear concept of this new cult called mirzaism.
But, my question is still there.......Why Mr.Mirza invented this new cult? There was absolutely NO need of that cult.
Yes, if,( as you posted) MrMirza was a scholar, then he could have remained scholar, but, there was NO need of announcing that he was mesiah or Jesus Christ or a prophet....That was the main reason Mirzaism is not considered Islam.
After reading all your posts thoroughly, in my pov, Mirzais is a separate cult or religion than Islam. Yes, the biggest mistake that Mr.Mirza did was to use Islam and Quran as his basic weapons and twisted them to invent a new cult or religion. It would be better for him NOT to use Islam or Quran as the basis of his ideology.
Mr.Mirza , if, would have invented his own ideology without using the clutches of Islam, he would have have had been more respectful among others.
What he did was a terrible blunder. I do not think this man was intellignet to use his own mind rather than twisting Quranic ideology to suit his mind. He reminds of of some ignorant Mullahs who have had been abusing Quran by twisting Quranic verses for their own convenience.
Now, as he claimed to be the messiah or prophet or jesus christ....question is, why he and his new religion never got accepted among majority of Muslims?
Only he was able to make few disciples......
Almost all Muslim world rejected his twisted teachings. And did not recognize him as a prophet or messiah or jesus christ. You know why? b/c no one is stupid to follow him blindly while knowing the facts.......thanks for your feedback, though.
#427 Posted by khuram on May 5, 2007 9:21:35 am
Basically he was an emerging Muslim Scholar. His activities were Manazaras or books writings intended to save Islam from the attacks of other religions like Arya Samaj and Christianity. He got some popularity and then started claiming spiritual experiences. He started projecting his predictions and some people became inspired. Ahmedies believe that some major enemies of Islam were died un-natural deaths only because of Mirza`s predictions. Then Mirza came with various major claims not at once but successively. At first step he realized that Hazrat Issa died a normal death,,, at other stage,,, he claimed to be that ``Issa`` who was to appear among Muslims,,, I don`t know whether he claimed to be Imam Mehdi before or after it. Then he got in problem with the issue of Khatm-e-Nabuwat. Perhaps at first he did some mistake about the issue of ``Khatam-e-Nabuwat`` ... but then he clarified the mistake in a separate booklet .. i think ``aik ghalti ka azala``..
I don`t know whether he was right or wrong in his claims ... but he was intelligent enough that he made a complete case of his claims in his many books ... I think he wrote perhaps more than 50 books. For example, in order to show that Hazrat Issa really died,,, he collected many proofs out of Quran, Hadith, writings of many Muslim Scholars as well as historical evidences.
Similarly, he also has made a detailed case about the issue of Khatam-e-Nabuwat as well as the issue of jihad. I already stated that I have read his book ``Islami Usool Ki Philosophy``. In fact this book was read allowed in an all India inter-religion manazara. And this book won that manazara even though some other promionent Muslim scholars also participated in that manazara. Ahmedy beliefs are more rational in nature. In fact Ahmedy beliefs are like a blend of fundamentalism with the approach of Sir Syed Ahmed Khan. Mirza takes symbolic meanings of many Quranic terms. But unlike Sir Syed,, he tends to give proof of those symbolic meanings out of same Quran.
Regards!
I don`t know whether he was right or wrong in his claims ... but he was intelligent enough that he made a complete case of his claims in his many books ... I think he wrote perhaps more than 50 books. For example, in order to show that Hazrat Issa really died,,, he collected many proofs out of Quran, Hadith, writings of many Muslim Scholars as well as historical evidences.
Similarly, he also has made a detailed case about the issue of Khatam-e-Nabuwat as well as the issue of jihad. I already stated that I have read his book ``Islami Usool Ki Philosophy``. In fact this book was read allowed in an all India inter-religion manazara. And this book won that manazara even though some other promionent Muslim scholars also participated in that manazara. Ahmedy beliefs are more rational in nature. In fact Ahmedy beliefs are like a blend of fundamentalism with the approach of Sir Syed Ahmed Khan. Mirza takes symbolic meanings of many Quranic terms. But unlike Sir Syed,, he tends to give proof of those symbolic meanings out of same Quran.
Regards!
#426 Posted by zeemax on May 5, 2007 7:42:16 am
#424/425 by khuram
But what did he teach? The question remains unanswered Khuram, despite all your attempts.
Just give bulleted points on what he taught that was different from Islam.
Thanks.
But what did he teach? The question remains unanswered Khuram, despite all your attempts.
Just give bulleted points on what he taught that was different from Islam.
Thanks.
#424 Posted by khuram on May 5, 2007 6:20:57 am
# 422 and 423 .. Zeemax & Zeena
``My questions is simply that, what is Mirza`s essential teaching different from Islam other than claiming to be the second coming of Christ and expunging Jihad for his followers?``
I suspect the answer is ``Nil``.
So why did he then invent this religion? To teach what? Or was it just to produce loyal servants of the British empire who rather than resisting, would actually work in advancing its colonial interests around the world?
That`s the next obvious question.
Ahmediyat has assumed the shame of an organized community. Mirza`s descendents are at advantageous position because they have become elite members of this community. They are running a dictatorship in the name of Caliphate, in the community.
This community considers Mirza Ghulam Ahmed to be true Imam Mehdi and the promissed Masih. They believe that Mirza has resolved all the outstanding internal disputes of Muslim Nation. For example, in his writings,,, Mirza has discussed internal differences of Shiaism and Ahl-e-Sunnat, of Ahl-e-Hadith and Ahl-e-Quran etc. etc. After necessary discussions, he has drawn his conclusions. For example his decision goes in favor of Ahl-e-Sunnat on the issue of status of first three Caliphs of Islam. He also considers Hazrat Ali to be legitimate fourth Caliph. etc. etc.
Essentially these are just points of views. But since his community considers him true Imam Mehdi, so status of his points of views becomes authority in their eyes. In addition, this community usually abstains from various cultural and religious customs and traditions. For example, they do not offer Qul and Chehlum etc. They don`t go to shrines of walis as well.
Anyways, Mirza could serve Islam better if he did not come up with his claims. He would have got a respectable position in the eyes of whole Muslim Ummah, instead of becoming authority for a small and insignificant size community.
Secondly his community had no advantage for British Crown. Such a small size community could do nothing for the cause of British crown. Only few moderate minded people could not change the over-all anti British sentiments. Beliefs of this community are totally opposite to Christian beliefs. This community believes Mirza to be ``Hazrat Issa``. Now try to think how Cristians and therefore British Crown could digest this belief...??? Because in this way, Mirza becomes equal in status to their own prophet. So emergence of this community had its own dynamics,, which were independent of any planning of the British government.
``My questions is simply that, what is Mirza`s essential teaching different from Islam other than claiming to be the second coming of Christ and expunging Jihad for his followers?``
I suspect the answer is ``Nil``.
So why did he then invent this religion? To teach what? Or was it just to produce loyal servants of the British empire who rather than resisting, would actually work in advancing its colonial interests around the world?
That`s the next obvious question.
Ahmediyat has assumed the shame of an organized community. Mirza`s descendents are at advantageous position because they have become elite members of this community. They are running a dictatorship in the name of Caliphate, in the community.
This community considers Mirza Ghulam Ahmed to be true Imam Mehdi and the promissed Masih. They believe that Mirza has resolved all the outstanding internal disputes of Muslim Nation. For example, in his writings,,, Mirza has discussed internal differences of Shiaism and Ahl-e-Sunnat, of Ahl-e-Hadith and Ahl-e-Quran etc. etc. After necessary discussions, he has drawn his conclusions. For example his decision goes in favor of Ahl-e-Sunnat on the issue of status of first three Caliphs of Islam. He also considers Hazrat Ali to be legitimate fourth Caliph. etc. etc.
Essentially these are just points of views. But since his community considers him true Imam Mehdi, so status of his points of views becomes authority in their eyes. In addition, this community usually abstains from various cultural and religious customs and traditions. For example, they do not offer Qul and Chehlum etc. They don`t go to shrines of walis as well.
Anyways, Mirza could serve Islam better if he did not come up with his claims. He would have got a respectable position in the eyes of whole Muslim Ummah, instead of becoming authority for a small and insignificant size community.
Secondly his community had no advantage for British Crown. Such a small size community could do nothing for the cause of British crown. Only few moderate minded people could not change the over-all anti British sentiments. Beliefs of this community are totally opposite to Christian beliefs. This community believes Mirza to be ``Hazrat Issa``. Now try to think how Cristians and therefore British Crown could digest this belief...??? Because in this way, Mirza becomes equal in status to their own prophet. So emergence of this community had its own dynamics,, which were independent of any planning of the British government.
#423 Posted by Zeena on May 5, 2007 3:58:48 am
khuram sahib
As per zeemax....[[So why did he then invent this religion? To teach what? Or was it just to produce loyal servants of the British empire who rather than resisting, would actually work in advancing its colonial interests around the world?
That`s the next obvious question.
Regards]]
Yes, why?
As per zeemax....[[So why did he then invent this religion? To teach what? Or was it just to produce loyal servants of the British empire who rather than resisting, would actually work in advancing its colonial interests around the world?
That`s the next obvious question.
Regards]]
Yes, why?
#422 Posted by zeemax on May 5, 2007 12:53:05 am
#416 by khuram
Let`s forget about Queen Victoria (and her most obedient servant) for a minute. Let`s first answer my question of #396 reproduced below to which a response is awaited:
``My questions is simply that, what is Mirza`s essential teaching different from Islam other than claiming to be the second coming of Christ and expunging Jihad for his followers?``
I suspect the answer is ``Nil``.
So why did he then invent this religion? To teach what? Or was it just to produce loyal servants of the British empire who rather than resisting, would actually work in advancing its colonial interests around the world?
That`s the next obvious question.
Regards
Let`s forget about Queen Victoria (and her most obedient servant) for a minute. Let`s first answer my question of #396 reproduced below to which a response is awaited:
``My questions is simply that, what is Mirza`s essential teaching different from Islam other than claiming to be the second coming of Christ and expunging Jihad for his followers?``
I suspect the answer is ``Nil``.
So why did he then invent this religion? To teach what? Or was it just to produce loyal servants of the British empire who rather than resisting, would actually work in advancing its colonial interests around the world?
That`s the next obvious question.
Regards
#421 Posted by bjkumar on May 4, 2007 10:20:37 pm
#420
And God spake thus...
``Haul that Gill guy right here
And before I whip his buttt...
Let him read the following...``
#420 Posted by bjkumar on May 4, 2007 9:57:30 pm
#419
...And they all scratch their (graying) heads and moth-eaten beards repeatedly and ponder aloud...
``He did, He did not! He did, He did not!...``
Create the Heavens, and the Earth, of course!
And so the count goes on...
``One - run!``
``Two - true!``
``Three - whee!``
``Four - gore!``
``Five - thrive!``
``Six - licks!``
``Seven - heaven!``
``Eight - wait!``
``Nine - fine!``
Until, until, until....a loud voice rings out...
Until
``Stop, Dr. Gill!``
#419 Posted by bjkumar on May 4, 2007 9:43:44 pm
#418 (add-on)
...while u-no-hu keeps looking in vain everywhere for something solid and hard that fell out of her nose!
#418 Posted by bjkumar on May 4, 2007 9:39:43 pm
Pin-drop silence descends over the chowk crowds as Echoboom and Urstruly climax together to the seductive music of celestial harps while pondering the larger meanings of life!
#417 Posted by khuram on May 4, 2007 9:03:16 pm
Re: # 415
There are every kind of websites. There are websites where you could find list of ex-Muslims telling why they left Islam and so have come to light. etc. etc.
There are every kind of websites. There are websites where you could find list of ex-Muslims telling why they left Islam and so have come to light. etc. etc.
#416 Posted by khuram on May 4, 2007 8:57:47 pm
# 406 Urstruely
Well ... if British Crown was afraid of concept of Imam Mehdi because of experience in Sudan,,, then logically Britain should have opposed or resisted any emergence of Imam Mehdi in Sub-Continent. A proven ``violent`` type movement cannot be anticipated to be ``peaceful`` and ``loyal`` just because of the type of personality who launched the movement.
And yes,,, Mirza was getting good name in the circle of Indian Muslim ulemas before his claims of being Imam Mehdi and like things. He not only debated with Christians, but he debated with Hindus as well. It was the time when Arya Smaj movement was at its peak in India. Mirza`s one of the first books was intended against Arya smaj. And the same book had made him popular among the circle of ulema.
# 384 Zeemax
With reference to the copy of page of letter which Mirza wrote to Queen Victoria, you presented.
As far I remember, Mirza actually had invited Queen Victoria to embrase Islam as well as join his Jamaat Ahmedia. You have presented only one page of that letter. Use of such faithful words could be a part of diplomacy as well. When a common person writes letter to the ruler of country,,, obviously he has to show his aajzi and inkisaari. And then gradually have to come to real point.
@ Sattar
Please try to confirm my point. Try to arrange this letter and read in full. Please tell did Mirza really invite Queen Victoria to embrase Islam and join Ahmediyat or not ... with proof.
Regards!
Well ... if British Crown was afraid of concept of Imam Mehdi because of experience in Sudan,,, then logically Britain should have opposed or resisted any emergence of Imam Mehdi in Sub-Continent. A proven ``violent`` type movement cannot be anticipated to be ``peaceful`` and ``loyal`` just because of the type of personality who launched the movement.
And yes,,, Mirza was getting good name in the circle of Indian Muslim ulemas before his claims of being Imam Mehdi and like things. He not only debated with Christians, but he debated with Hindus as well. It was the time when Arya Smaj movement was at its peak in India. Mirza`s one of the first books was intended against Arya smaj. And the same book had made him popular among the circle of ulema.
# 384 Zeemax
With reference to the copy of page of letter which Mirza wrote to Queen Victoria, you presented.
As far I remember, Mirza actually had invited Queen Victoria to embrase Islam as well as join his Jamaat Ahmedia. You have presented only one page of that letter. Use of such faithful words could be a part of diplomacy as well. When a common person writes letter to the ruler of country,,, obviously he has to show his aajzi and inkisaari. And then gradually have to come to real point.
@ Sattar
Please try to confirm my point. Try to arrange this letter and read in full. Please tell did Mirza really invite Queen Victoria to embrase Islam and join Ahmediyat or not ... with proof.
Regards!
#415 Posted by echoboom on May 4, 2007 3:54:27 pm
#414 Posted by sattar2 on May 4, 2007 3:20:51 pm
Urstruly (#410)
“Lacking background” is different from ”contradicting historical facts”.
Khuram’s post neither affirms nor denies the “background” you provided. Your “background” is a mere opinion, which aims to (mis?)characterize the backdrop of issue. It is either irrelevent or incorrect ... and therefore meaningless.
You tried to make a big splash by citing historical contradictions, but have failed to say much beyond that.
Dude, you come across more as a drama-queen (kinda like zeena - grin).
Moving on
In post #377, I gave reasons for my view that Issa and Imam Mahdi are the same person (under the heading Issa and Imam Mahdi). Mere insistence from you does not cut it.
You agree that prior to his claims, Mirza Sahib was considered a respected man by all.
Note that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) too was a much respected man in Mecca … prior to his claims of prophethood. However, he was much abused and reviled once he claimed to be a prophet of Allah. Same is the case with Mirza Sahib.
More you denounce Mirza Sahib, more your behavior matches that of kuffar of Mecca. Quran attests to such behavior pattern of disbelievers against Allah’s prophets.
If Mirza Sahib has claimed to be a Mahdi only, you’d insist on seeing Issa. But where would this Issa come from? From the skies? I don’t think so. You’d then insist on seeing a one-eyed monster riding a giant, fire-breathing donkey. There is no end to this insanity and your expectations.
In short, problem lies not with claims of Mirza Sahib, but with your incorrect expectations.
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