In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth

Re: # 387 Zeemax

I consider Syed Ahmed Khan no better than Mirza Ghulam Qadiani.

Your point re context of time is taken. How would you evaluate Iqbal in the context of his time?


Sir Syed was a part of Nobel class of Indian Muslims. He was concerned that Muslim Nobel class would not be able to compete with more educated Hindus in getting of superior government jobs under the British rule. The only solution was to launch a dedicated education spreading movement among Indian Muslims. But Indian Muslims despised western education because of religious beliefs. So first of all Sir Syed had to make-up Muslim mind for the adoptation of western education. That was the time of complete darkness of illeteracy and ignorance. Muslims were unaware of basic teachings of Islam as well and had been trapped into ignorant type superstitious beliefs like ancient prophets were many thousand feet tall etc. etc. Sir Syed had realized the poor and backward state of Muslim beliefs. Western thought of that time was dominated by Rationalism. Sir Syed realized the need of interpreting Islamic beliefs on rational footings. In the glorious period of early Muslim rule (i.e. early period of Abbasid Caliphate), a well known early Muslim sect ``Al-Mutazillah`` already had attempted to perform the task of interpreting Islamic beliefs on rational footings. The importance of that early sect can be realized by the fact that the first ever Rational Muslim Philosopher i.e. Yaqoob Alkindi belonged to Mutazillah faith. Later giant Muslim Philosophers like Al-Farabi and Ibn-e-Sina just had extended the views of Alkindi into further depths. That sect however could not survive for long and their works were also destroyed by the later dominent sects.

Sir Syed had got inspirations from that early sect. Some fragments of scattered work of that early sect could be made available. So Sir Syed undertook the heavy task of interpreting Islamic beliefs on strong rational footings in this way. Another early Shia sect ``Batania`` also influenced the thought of Sir Syed . Perhaps Sir Syed learned allegorical type interpretations of Islamic beliefs from ``Batania`` sect. Basic idea of Sir Syed was that Quran is the Word of God and functioning of Physical world is the Act of God. According to him, there could be no contradiction between Word of God and Act of God. In this way, Sir Syed gave `allegorical` meanings to all those things of Islamic belief system which could not be seen in the Physical world. For example, he allegorically interpreted the existence of angels, paradize and hell. On similar lines, he also denied the physical meanings of miracles of Prophets as well as denied the physical meanings of Hazrat Issa (RA) being alive in heavens. He took allegorical meanings of all these things. In this way, he tried to rationalize Islamic belief system. He could not complete this task. Secondly his work did not affect the orthodox momentum of Islamic beliefs.

About Allama Iqbal:

Allama Iqbal was concerned with the over-all backwardness of Muslim Nation as compared with Western Nations. Allama Iqbal`s time context was different from Mirza Qadiani and Sir Syed. Some Muslim Scholars like Syed Ameer Ali and Maulana Shibli Naumani etc. already had adopted some psychological ``escape`` strategies. Instead of facing the challenges of real world, they started finding charms in the false pride of past glory of Muslims. Allama Iqbal used same strategy with a positive mission i.e. with the view to give some confidence to Muslim Nation. Through his beutiful poetry, Allama Iqbal projected the past glory of Muslims and tried to invoke new spirit (Zinda Tamanna) in a dead nation. Allama Iqbal made the nation more ``emotional`` rather than making ``rational``.

Allama Iqbal also was deeply influenced by the popular Western Philosophies of his time like he was inspired by such Philosophers as Rausseau, Bergson, Fitche, Loyed Magon, Prof. Alexander and Nietzsche etc. etc. Allama Iqbal`s philosophical views are dominated by these philosophies. His ``Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam`` is an attempt to show that either above type of philosophies were already a part of Islamic ideology or that Islamic beliefs could be modernized on these lines.

Regards!

#392 by khuram,

This post is quite confusing. You say:

In those days missioneries used to argue ... Jesus was superior to Prophet of Islam. ... it was Mirza alone who fought this argument of missioneries. ... Mirza had various ``manazras`` with Christien Bishops ... and he e... broke the basic argument of Christian missioneries.

But to what purpose? Christian missionaries were not converting Muslims. All they were doing was converting harijans. Why go to all this trouble of Manazaras and all?

My questions is simply that, what is Mirza`s essential teaching different from Islam other than claiming to be the second coming of Christ and expunging Jihad for his followers?

Syed Ahmed did the same thing, but he thought better not to invent a new religion to do that but found a noble means of education to achieve his ends which was not easy to reject.

However, it was precisely that Syed Ahmed whose designs resulted in the Urdu Medium/ English Medium divide, and exclusion of the vastly major bulk of the population from integrating into a single mainstream identity, with catastrophic results which you see now.

There are two Pakistans, not one. One Pakistan is which the English educated think they own because its they who get all jobs and opportunities; while the other is which obviously many on this site know nothing about. That is the Urdu-medium and Madrassa educated Pakistan.

Regards

Paindoo-Productions kee fakhria paishkush:

Basheera-in-traable

first Panjabi film in english language.

#389 by Urstruly,

There was one Siddiq `Bam Baz` too in androon Lahore. Though I can`t find any references on him on the net.

Re: # 391

I think I do not agree with you on the use of the word ``welcome``, since Punjab in general and Punjabi religious leadership in particular had a very strong anti-British sentiment since the time of Jihad of Syed Ahmad Shaheed and Shah Ismail Shaheed against sikhs and their efforts to unite Muslims against the impending evil of both sikhs and British. We can say that Muslim Punjab accepted British as a lesser of two evils.

However, the British occupation had a profound effect on the lower strata of society since British established the very first time in the history of Punjab the Feudal Lord system aka Jagirdari Nizam as compared to the tribal or clan system that existed for centuries. These Jagirdars were responsible for collecting taxes and revenue and to provide horses and men to their British masters. Too often these Jagirdars used food as a tool for controlling masses. Punjab, the food basket of sub-continent, suffered twice from femine during two world wars. These famines were man made to force Punjabi men to serve in British army to fight the wars for british empire. Those femines and wars devestated the psyche of Punjab when general populace wanted to see British defeated and humiliated on one hand but on the other hand they had concern for the safety of their men at the warfront. That is the reason most of the punjabi folk poetry of near past is all about the `beloved`, `dhola`, and `mahiya` who is away from home and his lover yearns for his return. This has turned Punjabi psyche into a schizophrenic one even in present times when people do want to see rule of law, democracy, and good governance in the country but they do not want to see their military defeated and humilitated either. The fuaji dictatorship knows this very well and exploits it to the fullest.

Re: # 388

We are not any mature nation because we are just unable to see things in clear black and white.

Mirzai`s basic beliefs clearly go against basic beliefs of Gora Sahib. Gora sahib has the belief that Jesus died on cross, then became alive on third day and then went to heavens. In those days missioneries used to argue that since Jesus was alive in heavens and Prophet of Islam was burried in grave ... so Jesus was superior to Prophet of Islam. In such crucial time, it was Mirza alone who fought this argument of missioneries. He came up with a different reply that Jesus also died and is burried in a grave. Mirza had various ``manazras`` with Christien Bishops as well ... and he effectively broke the basic argument of Christian missioneries.

Mirza did have a solid role in his time. He had somewhat contribution of saving Islam from the hands of christian missioneries. Yes he was loyal to British government. But many other Punjabi ulemas were also loyal to British government.

Regards!

Re: # 389

Yes I used wrong word ``all``. Obviously my statement could not come up to ``falsification principle``. As a matter of fact, generally and on the whole, British government proved to be a blessing for Punjabi Muslims. Punjabi Muslims had no freedom of religious practices under the rule of Sikhs. Many mosques had been converted to stables in that period. British government was a blessing for Punjabi Muslims in religious sense also because British government gave full religious freedom to people. In fact, with the emergence of printing and publishing facilities in those times,,, ulemas of this region had found great oppertunity of spreading their religious views among people. These facilities were missing in Sikh Raj.

I should have phrased my post a little better. The people listed in my post were fighting their own separate wars with British. So there were more than one armed ressitances.

Re: # 385
``All the Punjabi Muslims had welcomed British Raj in the province.``
This is not true. Speaking of Punjabi Muslims alone, there was armed ressistance from such freedom fighters as Roy Ahmad Khan Kharl, Barkat Majaithia, Nizam Lohaar, and couple others who started a gorrila warfare against British after the collapse of Sikha Shahi. There are some others who were called ``decoits`` and ``thugs`` by British such as Jugga Daakoo, who was in fact the Punjabi Robin Hood and has become a part of our folklore.

#384 zeemax
Oh, now I got it....so this whole drama or saga of mirzaism was based on to please gora sahib to get to cash his religious card and to divide and rule among Muslims.........

This is scary......or my be this whole mirzaism was a conspiracy of goras against Muslims .......

#385 by khuram,

I consider Syed Ahmed Khan no better than Mirza Ghulam Qadiani.

Your point re context of time is taken. How would you evaluate Iqbal in the context of his time?

Regards

#385 by khuram,

I consider Syed Ahmed Khan no better than Mirza Ghulam Qadiani.

Your point re context of time is taken. How would you evaluate Iqbal in the context of his time?

Regards

Zeemax

We are prone to commit a common mistake while studying or evaluating history. We mistakenly tend to evaluate historical events in the light of our present day political and cultural environment.

Have you read Sir Syed Ahmed Khan`s ``Risala Asbab-e-Baghawat-e-Hind...???

I have read it. If you will read it, you will get very bad impression of Sir Syed because you will find him a perfect slave of British government who considers British people and western culture as superior to local people and culture. You know k Sir Syed ne British Sarkar ki apni jaan per khail ker Khidmet ki thi...??? He personally had saved lives of many British people during 1857 revolt by putting his own life in dangers.

Do you know that about all the Muslim Ulema from Punjab Province were generally very happy with the British government...???

If you do not know, then I tell you its reason. Before British Raj, Punjab province was under the control of Sikh rulers. Punjabi Muslims were suffering in the hands of Sikh rulers. Punjab was overtaken by Britishers in 1849. All the Punjabi Muslims had welcomed British Raj in the province. Because they had got freedom from the cruelties of Sikhs.

Hum log aaj 2007 main British k khilaf barrkein mar saktein hain. Do you know k 1857 k baad even founders of Deoband Madrasah had stopped talking about Jihad...??? Even though they had participated in 1857 war...!!! Deoband k baani ulema barre shageir main iss liye reh rahe thay kiyunke they had availed the ``aam maafi`` of British government.

Do you know k 1906 main Muslim League ki establishment ka purpose kia tha...??? Do you not know k purpose tha k Muslims ko British government ka faithful show kia jaye aur political benefits liye jayein.

Zeemax,, do you know k not only Muslims of Sub-Continent but actually almost all the Asian Nations had fallen so badly in the Colonial era that they had accepted White Man as something superior being to Asian People...???

Asian people could manage to come out of the trance of such deep inferiority complex first time in 1906 when Japanese Army defeated Russian Army. It was for the first time when Asian people got somewhat confidence. Asian people had got REAL confidence in second world war when at a stage Japan was defeating the alliance armies and Japan had liberated many Asian countries from British rule.

Even before this time,,, people of India could not think of trying to get freedom from British. Before second world war, Indian people (including Hindus and Muslims) were satisfied with living under British supervision and with somewhat limited autonomy. Before second world war, the issue was just how much seats for Hindus and how much for Muslims in the legislative assembelies.

But it was during second world war when Indian people got as much confidence to launch such movements as ``Quit India`` ... and Muslims came up with Pakistan Resolution.

Anyways, try to be able to see things in their original context. Pay thanks to the courage of Japanese people who gave you necessary confidence and you came out of a very deep rooted inferiority complex.

Mirza was a person of that time. Evaluate him in the context of that time.

If you evaluate Muhammad Ali Jinnah in the context of 1916, you will consider him right in his struggles for Hindu Muslim Unity.

If you evaluate him in the context of 1940, you will consider him right in his struggle for Hindu Muslim separation.

Learn to evaluate history in its original context. If you were the part of post 1857 context,,, you would be more rational if you accepted the superiority of British people. Sir Syed was a rationalist. Do you know...???

Regards!

#381 by Zeena,

Read this letter he wrote to Queen Victoria and you`ll be further enlightened:



Above is the ONLY reason he was propped up by the British as a fifth columnist, and despite the pacifist feelings of Khuram, the ONLY difference in interpretation of Quranic teachings he came up with (i.e. other than being Issa etc) which even sattar2 has failed to mention in his #377.

Want to add one thing. Another very good explanation or interpretation of Islamic system of Ikhlaq can be found in Wasif Ali Wasif.

Regards!

So discussion turns on to be secterian. This is great misfortune with Muslims that they prefer calling other sects as ``Non-Muslims`` than realizing the real threats imposed on to them. This article where we are interacting is intended against religion as a whole. But we are discussing here that this or that person has no right to call himself a Muslim, even though he argues from Quran and Hadith.

For me, Ahmediah issue is the case of difference in interpretations of Quran and Hadith. No one is real authority on Quran and Hadith and only Allah knows the true meanings of Quran and Hadith. We humans have no right to consider only our interpretation to be perfectly true.

Quranic teachings have many dimensions. No one can understand all the dimensions. Some people will understand some few things like jihad etc. and they shall keep their focus only on these things. Some other people shall understand more tolerant teachings of Islam,, and so they shall emphasize only on those things. Some other people only shall understand the importance of offering prayers and so they shall only keep themselves busy in offering of prayers. Some other people shall understand only the Haqooq-ul-Ibad portion of Quranic teachings and so they shall devote their lives for humaniterian cause.

A balanced society needs all these types of people. For example, if you exclude jihad type people from society, soon the whole society shall become a stupid coward. And similarly if you exclude humaniterian type people, the whole society could become a jungle. If you exclude ibadat guzar people (who may not be good in Haqood-ul-Ibad),,,, soon the survival of religion could be in threats.

Similarly a progressing socioety may need ``Imam Mehdies`` also from time to time. If Islamic history is full of Imam Mehdies, then factor of Divine Will behind it cannot be overlooked. With the passage of time, whole society may fall in confusions and mis-understandings. Islam has provided its solution in the form of ``Mujadads`` and even ``Imam Mehdies``.

I have read Mirza Ghulam Ahmed`s book ``Islami Usool Ki Phoilosophy``... This is an excellent book. I have not seen any better explanation of Islamic system of Ikhlaq anywhere else so far.

I have no right to consider Ahmedies as non-Muslims. They may really be non-Muslims. but I have no concern. Sometimes non-Muslims also can teach Islam,,, better than Muslims.

Muslims should learn to pay some respect to other religious personalities as well.

Regards!