Reflections on the Virginia Tech School Tragedy

Re: # 142
dear ritaveda....i am not clear who are you referring to when you say...`on the orders of

somebody sitting in a foreign country`...

i can just share my impressions

for me human life is precious whether of an easterner or westerner, northerner or

southerner...we are all part of a human family

so when human beings are killed we reflect

....were they killed for personal motives

...were they killed for religious motives

....were they killed for political motives

is the person killing

a schizophrenic

a psychoth

a dictator

a part of a religious or political organization?

i would like to hear your views about the killings in karachi...thanks for your

interest...sincerely sohail

A single person responsible for killing of innocent persons in any Western country attracts our attention like this and we come up with our diagnosis of mental illnesses of Western societies. But, in front of us, multitudes of persons are killed by their fellow countrymen in Karachi on Saturday for a whole day in front of army, police, rangers and entire world watching through television sets, on the orders of somebody sitting in a foreign country but nobody dares to analysis his mental health!

Re: # 138

``OBL--who Pardesi has already decided is just after oil money and nearly the same thing that America Is``

I do not know whether OBL is after oil money or not. But western view is that if people like him do control the Middle East, they will have the power to disrupt our economic machine and therefore can not be allowed to have this capability. USA is not after this oil money. We gladly pay the fair market price to oil producers whether they are from Venezuela or Saudi Arabia.

Capitalism has flaws, because it was not invented by some prophets. It was developed by humans, for humans and is governed by humans without any divine guidance. The output rewards people in this life and does not promise anything after life. Its flaws are constantly discussed openly and corrected as much as possible. Variations of this capitalist system are practiced in various western societies and they do resolve their differences peacefully most of the times and do not fight for what happened thousand years back.

Everyone starting from Buffett to a clerk is a cog in the machine and people respect each other`s contribution. The richest people some times donate 90-95% of their net worth for the benefit of other folks living even in other continents. I wish so called elitists donate their 90% net worth in their own countries where there is no shortage of poor folks. In this system, self worth does not come from titles in corporations but financial independence and what you contribute to society and how society in turn treats you.

I wish people who are critical of this system, truly work as productive members here for 15-20 years to see how the system continuously upgrades itself through creative destruction of old and its replacement with new and how nice folks here accept it graciously for the greater good of their next generations. In any other rotten system created on ``higher principles`` people will be at each other`s throats if their own interests are at risk.

People should treat the capitalist system with respect and then try to make improvements gradually. If you want to make changes to your nice home, you do section at a time. You do not constantly curse it and cooperate with your enemies whose sole purpose in life is to see its destruction.

Re: # 138

[However, to be very frank with you, I do not hate America.]

Obviously, you seem to be benefitting from the system in some way or the other otherwise you would have decided to take your valuable theories and applied them to the land of milk and honey :). In your case, you should replace America with Canada and start the worshipping process.

Re: # 138
dear saimashah...i am impressed how you articulated your thoughts about a topic that

stirred up so many strong feelings. thanks for sharing....sohail

Re: # 135

Dear masadi:

Everything that you say is true about American liberation, emancipation and freedom. Equally true is the fact that some people value the sense of power and liberty that a corporate title bestows upon them. They are the ones for whom the system `works`. It feels goooood and that is all that matters to the individual. The individual who `performs` in this economy, feels immense self-respect and confidence. This is a bubble that works as long as it can. When it stops working the individual can do the following:
1. Reinvent other sources of `self-esteem` and align with different causes.
2. Accept the sense of `mediocrity` that not `performing` in the system causes.
3. Move to a different country

The arguments that you present are not at the level of the individual. In other words you are asking the individual whose livelihood and sense of self is dependent on the system to critique the system. It is a hard sell (in the corporate lingo), which is why Dr Chomsky, perhaps the greatest intellectual finds few purchasers of his ideas. Which brings me back to the idea of buy and sell. Some people actually love to do that, and they`d be doing this regardless of what impact it had on justice. I also find the argument about the greatness of America very fun. It is a logical conundrum. When all arguments fail, the defenders of America will say, `O but see, it is only in America that people can criticize America, that look our liberty is working because so many criticize it openly, and the world`s smartest people are STILL IN America.` This is but natural, because such is the nature of power and always has been. IT does not mean that the power or its source has no ethical flaws. It is interesting to see that `Jihadi` and `OBL` are accepted as the competitors for this power and if you don`t like America, you must be OBL--who Pardesi has already decided is just after oil money and nearly the same thing that America Is. In the two dimensional world of America, you are either with us or you want we got or you are either with us or against us.

However, to be very frank with you, I do not hate America. I see it as based on a system that is in a terrible crisis. I believe that capitalism as we know it is changing very rapidly to become the most repressive system ever seen unlike what it was for many people. The world`s economic theories and systems need a complete rethink. I am appalled that our Universities are ill equipped with ideas to deal with the crisis. We are hitting a great big wall. There are some who think we will never hit the wall. Some who think that the wall does not exist. Some who think we can jump over the wall. Some who think that if they eliminate the other contenders, they won`t hit the wall and still others who believe that the wall should not be allowed to get this huge and try to change the paradigm.

Utterly and completely respected Masadi Sahib,

It is amazing how you continue to spew venom at any one who dares disagree with you.
It is also evident that you will continue to infest Chowk and cause a stink and have not accepted the ``making worthwhile contribution to Pakistan by joining a construction crew. ``
Let me once again reiterate the following :

The BS that you call ``research``, your lunatic ``theories`` , your insane ``dimwit`` arguments, do not deserve to get published anywhere (except lulu.com).

Kindly wake up to the facts that :

1. You were kicked out of the US college by your Gora masters and sent back to Pakistan inspite of your pleadings and wailings.

2. The Pakistani college which offered you a position based on your fake ``credentials`` wasted no time in booting you out as soon as the discovered the real you.This second rejection by the Brown masters has completely unhinged you.

3. Rejection of your ``articles`` by Chowk editors is just a simple continuation of the trend.

Accept reality. Go see a shrink. Take a break. Before you get hysterical and suffer a nervous breakdown. Try to make a positive contribution to Pakistan. Cut the crap. Do some manual labour. Stop ranting. Stop typing.Stay away from computers. Roll up your sleeves and join the gang on that construction project.

Wishing you well, Masadi.

drsohail:

Same here!

Pardesi writes <<< I do not have inclination to continue with these meaningless debates especially when people unnecessarily criticize USA, the best thing that ever happened to humanity :). >>>

They are meaningless to you because unlike the facts that I write about, busting the mythology of the ``best thing that ever happened to humanity``, based on the aggregate picture of its society, you on the other hand have only platitudes that are unoriginal, have been borrowed from the corporate media and are quite unscientific, you and the experience of your friends do not constitute either a critical mass or a scientific sample to make any of the conlcusions you are making in an ignorantly authoritative manner. The US did indeed enslave people and destroy entire races in its bloody history and continues to do so by the policies of its elite...

Re: # 132

dear dost-mittar...i enjoyed exchanging ideas with you. keep in touch...sincerely sohail

Re: # 126

Dear Masadi,

Clearly your impressions about USA are based upon your experiences here and mine are based upon my own and countless others that I associate with. We, and our children, have achieved more success than we dreamed of when we landed here. And there are many more that have succeeded even more – CEOs, CFOs of major corporations.

You come across as a very bright and hard working person. I wish you had marketable skills for this economic engine. With right attitude you could have leveraged your intelligence and tenacity by acquiring other skills useful for this country. However, some folks have very high degree of pride/arrogance compared to their societal worth and can not take any useful feedback from well meaning friends and therefore never amount to anything. This results in their perpetual anger. Hopefully in Peshawar, or other appropriate Jihad friendly university, you will be able to find recognition for your obvious high talents in your field of specialization.

Now about America, these guys did not enslave anybody. They are just enablers of free economy and social development. Economic progress and opportunities overcome prejudices based upon religion, caste etc. Ask Japanese, Koreans, Chinese or Indians why they are welcoming the new environment and Americans with open arms. I just read an article about Chile. The new socialist president, while still angry at the old dictator about putting her in jail, wants to continue his economic policies that have put Chile ahead of all South American countries. People come to USA to learn and emulate our system rather than us forcing anything.

The only reason we play hardball with Middle East is OIL. We need it and or dependent upon it. OBL and USA both know it. OBL and his buddies know that they do not have industrial base, developed scientific infrastructure/manpwer and do not stand a chance against western world. But using oil weapon they think they can bring these countries to knees and once again bring back their glorious days. Westerns believe that they found the oil and they are generous in paying the right price for oil and these camel jockeys should be grateful and “live and let live”. Let’s hope the more enlightened ones win.

You can have the last word if you wish. I do not have inclination to continue with these meaningless debates especially when people unnecessarily criticize USA, the best thing that ever happened to humanity :).

Regards.

Dr Sohail:

I have no reason to doubt your stats.; it was only my impression (plus common sense) that people who are too busy trying to meet the basic primary physical needs have their minds too preoccupied with those problems. But yes, I have read about theories that many of the problems associated with chemical imbalances are genetic and/or develop during pregnancy.

Re: # 130
dear dost-mittar...as far as emotional problems and mental illnesses are concerned they

are universal.
1 in 100 people all over the world suffer from schizophrenia....and it is more prevalent in

lower socio-economic classes than the affluent

1 in 4 women and 1 in 10 men suffer from depression

women have more depression while men experience it as addictions and are more violent

than women

it seems as if men explode and women implode when under stress.

the difference is that different cultures cope with their problems differently.

the cultures that are more formally educated and more aware of mental health problems

see doctors and psychiatrists while more traditional cultures go to spiritual healers or

silently suffer...not seeing a psychiatrist does not mean people do not have emotional

problems or do not suffer. did you ever go to a psychiatric hospital/mental sylum in asia?

it is painful to see how these patients are treated.

sincerely sohail

I agree with almost everything you say. Yes, our societies -including those of south asian backgrounds living in North America, do have their hang-ups. But I think that, other than extreme depression, most of Psychiatric patients back home are from affluent classes. The case of the Pakistani serial murderer that you mentioned was also, if I remember correctly, of an extremely depressed person who was willing to go to the extreme and take blame for something that he hadn`t done.

Re: # 128
dear dost-mittar

thank you for your thoughtful comments. i agree with you that in close knit families and

communities there is a lot of support network but many of those families are also

traditional and conservative and not very tolerant of non-traditional and creative people

who feel suffocated by those families and communities and have emotional problems.

the other factor is that for people to say

i am anxious

i am depressed

i have emotional problems

people need to be psychologically tuned in with their emotions. many people who go to holy

shrines in pakistan has emotional problems and many who go to see family doctors with

physical problems also have psychological problems.

i think individuals and families and communities and cultures can define emotional

problems as

physical problems

religious problems

social problems

spiritual problems

or

psychological problems

you are quite aware that these problems are complex. human suffering is neither eastern

nor western and we all deal with it the unique way we have learnt. is one way better than

the other? is a matter of judgment.

sincerely... sohail

Sohail Sahib:

``In Canada a psychiatrist can sign a Form One for involuntary admission to a psychiatric hospital if the person``

Actually, any physician -not just psychiatrist- can sign Form One, but it is valid only for 2-3 days for assessment. On the basis of that assessment, the hospital may decide to keep the patient for longer period but the patient in many cases has the right to challenge that decision, with the help of a lawyer if necessary, provided by the government.

``I reviewed the literature on serial killers and mass murderers and was shocked to find that America had the highest rate of serial killers in the world. ``

Why were you shocked? People in poor countries are too concerned about satisfying the basic needs of life to have psychiatric problems. Exceptions notwithstanding, rich people have more psychiatric needs than poor people. Moreover, in a society like North American where people are discouraged to talk about personal problems with each other, shrinks become a necessity. Back home, your friends, neighbours and even the local barbers act as shrinks.

Re: # 106 Naqsh

The way the wind is blowing, it is not looking too good. U.S. Concerned About Britons From Pakistan. ``Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff has opened talks with the British government on how to curb the access of British citizens of Pakistani origin to the United States.

Pardesi writes <<< For example, America is a land of strivers that rewards doers and leaves behind who want to sit back on their butt either because they can not cope with change or they have enough to live on their trust accounts or they just learn to live on less and are happy with it. >>>

Unfortunately this poor ignoramus is just repeating the rhetoric of FOX NEWS, that many before him and before Fox News have specialized in, what C. Wright Mills referred to as ``The Great American Celebration``. The facts are that those with wealth and ``trust funds`` keep increasing their wealth while doing next to nothing, except manipulation and practicing the higher immorality of destroying nations while the vast majority of the rest, are working longer hours at multiple jobs just to make ends meet while being knee deep in debt.

Americans didn`t have to go out killing anyone on one incident, since their elite have already killed millions of them (read your history books). Further ``cultural criminology``, crime as covered on TV is not the same as actual crime, only dimwits with conlude that just because hate crimes against Koreans (both explicit and implicit) are not reported on this media, which wants to create a particular image of crime, they do not exist. No other ``civilized`` people have ever enslaved people based on race than have the American elite. Fully one third of young African American males have been through its criminal justice system, and in that system minorities constitute majorities....that should say something about this land your worship and its level of civility.

Just because system survival requires that these things be hidden both objectively and from the consciousness of those that live within and outside it does not mean that poverty of a debilitating sort and crime of most henious kinds, perpetrated by the locals and especially their elite does not exist. You`d be ( and are) stupid and ignorant to conclude otherwise.

To be a munafiquoon & Murtadoon is to have a lack of faith in the one & only diety they themselves claim to believe in--the Supremacy of Man himself. But then still they cannot do away with the concept of a diety.

Now can there be a bigger ailment & disease than that?

Never ever shall they ever be DE-depressed...for they suffer from a cancer of their Psyche or until they recite : La ilaha; il al-Insaan

Reciting only the first half of the Kalima is at the root of their ailing hearts & minds.

Shrinks must get their heads examined, once a year or when there License is renewed. Even Driver`s Licenses & Taxi LIcebses are renewed after check up.

We might discover that it is really the Shrinks who have been exercising too much influence
in this so-called ``modern`` world.

Instead of these barrage of ``articles`` [ read:disease-confessions disguised as intellectualism or desire to understand] by the murtadoons it is far better to be positive and pro-active and listen to this:

MashaAllah what a discussion.

Depression - The Plague of the Modern World

Virginia Tech is now stale news. Shall we move on now to the sawed-off shotgun in Kansas?

If it is all due to mental sickness which should be treated, there`re certainly a lot of mentally sick running loose in malls and schools over there.

#120 by Kulharee on April 29, 2007 5:00pm PT

The NRA guy was for the law and the nutcase association guy was against it...that`s like bizzaro world...

Re: # 120

dear kulharee...you have asked a very interesting question. i can give you my opinion and

i am sure many people may not agree with me.

i am against any person carrying gun because we can all get angry and frustrated and can

use it inappropriately even when driving and experiencing road rage

but if society wants to give the freedom to carry guns then psychiatric patients should not

be penalized because they suffer from emotional problems. i always fought for the rights of

psychiatric pateints because

....most psychiatric patients do not commit violent crimes

and

...most violent crimes are committed by psychopaths and not by people with mental illness

(over here i am defining mental illness as schizophrenia and manic depressive illness...in

short people who are psychotic)

on the other hand i fully agree that if a person suffering from mental illness is a danger to

self or others then the doctor/psychiatrist is obligated to arrange for admission to the

hospital for psychiatric treatment.

every patient has all the human rights as a common citizen untill he/she shows evidence to

be danger to the society.

i hope i answered your question and i like your questions even when i cannot answer them

satisfactorily. they are food for thought and inspire me to read and write more...sincerely sohail

Re: # 116

dear pardesi...i want to join jahraj to congratulate you on your insightful and eloquent

letter. i agree with almost all the points you made. i just want to add my two cents worth.

i think it is important to see the dilemma of children of first generation immigrants.

immigrants come with their dreams. if they succeed they are really happy but if their

dreams are shattered they face emotional problems.

in early part of 20th century a Norwegian psychiatrist Odegaard noticed that the number of

immigrants in American mental hospitals was proportionately more than local people. he

opened a debate

is it because of the stress of the immigration?

or

is it that people who leave their homelands are emotionally abnormal and cannot fit in their

own communities?.

his conclusion was that people who immigrate has emotional problems to start withother

psychiatrists do not agree and it is a big subject that i do not want to go in detail

but children of those immigrants have to carry the cross of the dreams of their

parents most asian immigrants i met told me that they came to north america for the future

of their children. in many cases those children get better education in north america than

they would have received in asia and become very successsful but some like CHO who had

serious emotional problems even as a child in korea do not do well....and then the final

outcome....depends how serious the problem is and how much professional help they

receive....

thanks for your comments...sincerely sohail

Dear Dr. Sahib, I just watched a 60 minutes segment on Guns and Mental Health. MHA (Mental Health America) is against any legislation requiring Mental Health patients to be registered in FBI database for the purpose of restricting the sale of Guns to them. Over 1000 homicides annually in the US are carried out by the mentally ill. MHA argues that Mentally Ill are stigmatized enough as it is, and their record (under the guise of doctor patient confidentiality laws) should not be made public.

Please comment.

Re: # 118

Pardesi - Your post # 116 was the most beautiful and appropriate post I have read on Chowk in the past many many years. I just wanted you to know that there are people around who appreciate your thought process. It is very rare that you come across individuals who you can relate to at a certain level. Thanks for a very insightful post.

On the subject of change and evolution - Change is an instigator for evolution.

[Will we ever get praise from the liberated masses after fanatics are subdued?]

:)

We may not get appreciation but the liberated masses will follow the change without realizing :) That`s the beauty of certain types of change.

Best Regards to you too.

Zahra, hello again. You bring in very interesting point – will change always bring in evolution?

I would say yes in democratic societies, where there are so many eyes watching each other. Let’s take a look at our own adopted country – there are at least 7 power centers that I can think of that work so independently from each other that they think of themselves as the only true power. In addition to the three official centers of power, we have Wall Street, Media, Hollywood and Corporate world. Each of these has tremendous impact on our lives and is kind of independent of each other due to huge egos involved. IMHO, that’s the beauty of this evolved society.

The con of this structure is that it takes long time and lots of back and forth before this system can make up its mind when brand new challenge is faced. If you think about it, that’s the reason we have not been able to come with a unified action against Al-Quada, while the opponents think that either we are dumb or they are braver than USA. My sense is that we are going to suffer more before all our local power centers see need to unite in order to face this brand new virus.

The world should be grateful to this country that civilized Germany and Japan after WW2, saved the world from communism and now hopefully will eradicate the new menace. While working as chowkidar, the system kept humming along as innovator of best things that have changed lives of billions.

Will we ever get praise from the liberated masses after fanatics are subdued? No - just look at French how much they appreciate us :). Watch ‘High Noon’ (old movie), if you have not already. Some people and nations are just doomed to keep humanity moving forward at great cost to themselves.

Best regards.

Re: # 116

Pardesi - Hi. Excellent points! Ditto to all your points. The focus is on productivity and evolution. Hopefully, change results in evolution.

Dear Dr. Sohail,

You wrote “It is fascinating to observe the evolution of American society over the last century. One can see the best and the worst of the whole world in United States of America. People from all over the world have been trying to immigrate to America, as though it were the modern “promised land”. In this land of eminent scientists, avant-garde artists and Oscar award winning actors and directors, we also see the worst serial killers and mass murderers. For some their dreams come true and for others they turn into violent nightmares”

Is it possible that this kind of mass murder/violence might be related to the “change” that one needs to go though in order to survive or fit in this ultra competitive society?

For example, America is a land of strivers that rewards doers and leaves behind who want to sit back on their butt either because they can not cope with change or they have enough to live on their trust accounts or they just learn to live on less and are happy with it.

These competitive pressures start on kids early on. The pressure continues in your career as technology changes, mergers/acquisitions/outsourcing/insourcing takes place. Meanwhile, demands related to your life stage (adjustment with spouse, some times divorces, raising kids) can not wait simply because you are experiencing tremendous job pressures.

All this is a potent mix that becomes unbearable for some and they explode. It does not mean that American society is flawed or that capitalism is immoral. It just is the price you pay if you want to stay competitive or a leader for change. If one can not take the heat, he/she should go and settle down in Canada, Panama or wherever else one can find peace. As other countries try to move up the food chain and try to work harder to improve their lot and provide opportunities to the poorer sections of society, they will experience similar growing pains due to the associated “change”.

In fact I would submit that the reason Muslim world is experiencing so much turmoil is this “change” – change from nice cushy life that was taken for granted for some due to oil money and no opportunities for others. These countries are going through changes that took centuries for westerners to digest. Now, who do people like to blame for all this – Of course America. And that’s pure non sense.

On balance, I will prefer to live in this country even with this occasional unfortunate incidences than societies which either are static (little opportunities for most people) or they have violence that’s encouraged by religious fanatics or other officials at the highest levels when it suits their purposes.

In this great country at least a) Cho’s civilized family apologized to the victims and did not blame his evil deeds on Jews or sufferings of Palestinians and b) Americans did not start burning Koreans alive all over the country.

What a great country with civilized culture and institutions to enforce law and order.

Dr. Sohail - Thanks for taking a stab at my question. I was surprised that you forgot to take into account the Canadian incident in your overall analysis. I think there is a deeper reason behind killings that take place in a school or a university. I would also add that the location of the school/university played a role in the past three major massacres. In case of Amish killings, they took place in a very remote area. There was not anything else in that neighborhood. Columbine was more or less in the same category. Having spoken to a few colleagues who`ve attended Virginia Tech, I was told that the university is located in a very suburban area as well. For some people suburbs can be peaceful whereas for others they can add to their depression or frustration. Last but not least, the ongoing issue of gun control needs serious review and attention.

#112 by drsohail,

Dear Dr. Sohail, to be truthful my ire was intended at the author of #110 and not you though it did turn out that way. Apologies. However, the reference I used for you is the same as hamidm uses regularly as a term of endearment for his best friend tehsinabbasi :)

Re: # 110

dear zahraj....your question is valid and thought provoking. the literature of serial killers

and mass murderers that i have reviewed suggests that these people have a theory in their

mind. they see themselves as victims and blame one group for their troubles....whether it

is whites....or spanish...or women....and then want to hurt that group and find a place

where they can find those people....

many men who blame women as they have deep hatred for women go to red light areas

and kill prostitutes

many blacks who blame whites for their miseries kill whites

i would not be surprised if we read the diaries of CHO that he blamed white students in his

school as they teased him for being asian or eccentric...that he wanted to take revenge.

i also find it fascinating that these people want media attention so they want to make sure

that they become famous/notorious. CHO also sent a package to news media in between

his two sets of killings.

i am aware that my answer is not a satisfactory answer but that is what your question

inspired. i will keep your question in mind in my future readings. thanks for taking a keen

interest in my article. i went to your website and liked the zen saying you quoted....quite

profound....sincerely sohail

Re: # 111

dear zeemax...i thought we agreed to be mutually respectful.....sincerely sohail

=== Interact Filtered ===
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Dr. Sohail -

Thanks for sharing your insights on a very sad incident.

Is there any connection between people like Cho and the location they pick to vent their frustrations? Long time back, another incident like this took place in Canada in 1989. That incident is attributed to be the worst in Canadian history.

[The Montréal Massacre of December 6, 1989, in which 14 women students at the École Polytechnique were systematically killed and 13 other students wounded by a lone gunman, is indelibly imprinted on the minds of Quebeckers and others who struggled to comprehend the worst single-day massacre in Canadian history.]

http://www.gendercide.org/case_montreal.html

http://www.peaceworkmagazine.org/node/346


Looking back at the Amish school killings and Columbine Massacre, I wonder why schools and universities are being chosen to unleash the animals within. Is it because of the significance of a place of learning? Or the counter effect it produces on others? That`s really disturbing.

I agree with your points in Relationship to War and Violent Films and Videos passages.

#103 by bulleya on April 27, 2007 11:23pm PT

Funny how you discovered the magic of canada at the same time the US government was cracking down on pakis post 9/11..quite a co-incidence, isn`t it...

and the fact that abdul paki and harper jr both have to wait 19 weeks or more for cardiac surgery isn`t exactly comforting to abdul paki or harper jr...

The fact remains that the US is a magnet for the most productive immigrants...must be some reason for that, right?

Re: # 105

dear muh adil.....i am not a computer expert. the way the chowk staff has arranged

my articles are published under the name

khalid sohail

but when i respond to people`s questions it comes under

drsohail

i am not aware if someone else writes under my name....i know there are other sohails

but i write under khalid sohail and respond under drsohail

thanks for your concern. sincerely sohail ( the real one)

Naqshbandi #106: I am glad you are trying to integrate yourself as a european, and i agree that one can be comfortable with being a muslim and at the same time be comfortable with seeing oneself as a member of the broader community where one has chosen to live. If only more muslim were capable of taking this broader view of things!!

You take a controversial stand in saying that you oppose further immigration from muslim countries unless the immigrants are willing not to build a ``muslim ghetto`` for themselves (as they have done in the UK and France). The question of immigration I think needs to be seen in the broader light, whereby the world has become a ``global village``. It is indeed vital for the muslims to understand this - at the risk of becoming more and more irrelevant at best (and a problem, at worst) in the modern world.

I can understand your negative perceptions about the US, but as kulharee says they are shaped not by a first-hand view of things but on a negative press in europe. Rest assured that if human nature changes by crossing over the Atlantic (or Pacific) to the new world, it is generally for the better (more ``elbow room``, fewer historical hangups, stronger democratic roots).

Re: # 100

Kulharee mian-- i am aware of the immigration issue. but like many middle class/professional immigrants i too support restrictions on immigration--because a lot of them dont make the effort to integrate and that leads to problems for those of us who just want to get on with our lives. i know a lot of people from chowk probably think of me as some kind of islamist but, i love islam and respect it, but i am v integrated into the european way of life.

saying i support stopping immigration might seem selfish considering my own family were immigrants 2 generations ago but so be it.

there are FAR more inter-racial marriage as a proportion of the population in the UK than in the US, especially between blacks and whites. i have no stats but am sure it`d back me up. even in so called racist france, something like 30 percent of muslims from north africa have white partners.

in the usa blacks live in their own ghettoes which are virtual no go areas for whites.
ask yourself this: WHY is the USA so criticised socially in the EU countries?

Hello Dr. Sohail,
i have one request to make, and that is

when you write something at chowk.com, you use ID
(http://www.chowk.com/show_writer_page.cgi?pen_name=Khalid%20Sohail)

and when you are replying to the comments made by people you use different ID (http://www.chowk.com/show_interactor_page.cgi?membername=drsohail) , so it make

confusion to the people who are reading your reply on comments.

I also get confused earlier but since i have read almost all of your writing at your website (http://www.drsohail.com/), and i know your writing style, so i came to know it`s you not somebody who is writing with fake ID.

But this thing can make confusions for the people who have not read you before, or even if they have it still confusing because how we know its you.

I don`t know it is problem of chowk.com or you are doing it intensionally, If it is chowk.com problem, then i think we can request them to give functionality to writer also to comment back, and if you are doing it, then can you give some reason for that.

I hope you will reply to that because this is a very serious problem.
Thanks.

Those who can read ``URDU``

should read a wonderful, readworthy article `` Nazaryatee Maqtal Gahain`` from

http://kashifhafeez.com/mazameen.php

....If you are a medical patient, Canada is a better place to be......as you will be looked after at very low costs and in an equitable manner.....Your son will be in the same line for a heart transplant as the son of the Prime Minister of the country.........However, if you are the surgeon treating the patient, USA is a better place, as you will make far more money as a surgeon in the USA than in Canada........

........There are more patients in the world than surgeons........

Interesting discussion on the best places to live and the most equitable societies......I think one would actually have to live/work in a country to be able to objectively evaluate it........And one would have to look at it for all levels of society - poor and rich - to get a clear picture.........

I have lived extensively in the Midwest and West Coast of USA.......And now in Canada......I have worked for a European firm, thereby getting a chance to see the business environment there, though not the social environment.........And now I will be getting a chance to spend a lot of time in India, Pakistan and Middle East.......

.......The best and most humane and just society I have seen is Canada.......There really isn`t any contest in this regard........The UN`s HDI is the most detailed analysis in the world of living standards.......And for its first seven years, it ranked Canada as no. 1..........

The best place to do business and to become rich the quickest, in a stable manner, is hands down USA......Once again, no contest amongst the Western nations........(though now it is being replaced by the Middle East oil kingdoms in this regard....however they are not as stable)...........

The USA is for the entrepreneuer, the talented, the ambitious and the successful.........I don`t have exact figures, but that probably constitutes 10% or so of a society.......This is not to say that the USA doesn`t look after the downtrodden etc........However considering the amount of wealth it has, its downtrodden could be a lot better taken care of.........

..........Canada allows you to make money........But not at the same pace as the USA.......However, Canada is a far more equitable society..........While I have not seen the kind of wealth in Canada that one sees in Silicon Valley, I have yet to see the kind of poverty in Toronto that I saw in Silicon Valley........In addition, Canadian society is far more at peace with itself than USA........Everyone is blended in.......The rich and poor live in the same neighborhood..........When was the last time anyone heard of any ethnic, racial etc. violence in Canada, even though Toronto is more multi-cultural than New York.....

In addition, Canada`s economy is far better placed for the future than the USA......It has been in a surplus for a while, and will remain in one for a while.......It provides universal health care to all, nearly free education, throughout university, with every student given access to its Harvard`s and MIT`s.......It has Employee Pension and Insurance Plans(s) which are overflowing with money.........Amongst large(r) countries, it has by far, the largest natural resources to population ratios in the world......Alberta alone has more oil deposits than Saudi Arabia......Lumber, fresh water, stream water, minerals etc.........

Due to a society being in peace with itself, Canada has a low crime rate.......To the point that one can feel it, when one walks through downtown.........I could walk in any part of Toronto in the middle of the night........Couldn`t do that in San Francisco and San Jose.........

So it depends on what level of the society one belongs to and what one`s motivations are in life........If you want to become Bill Gates, you must be in USA; no other place will allow you to move up so quickly..........However, I cannot see something like a Katrina happening in Canada.......

In addition, Canada is recognized as a leader in human rights internationally, and is generally respected by countries across the spectrum..........While USA has moved to the opposite spectrum on this and has created a lot of problems for itself and its social setup, in this regard.........

Europe, from what I can see, seems to have gone stale and non-dynamic.......Not to mention quite expensive.......I cannot see how one can get value for money in Europe........I have worked with a lot of Europeans who want to migrate out to North America; even though they have good professional jobs in Europe........

Re: # 97

Well said!

all i remember is that paknets service (atleast for my internet card was ``intentionaly disrupted by some real black-behind and then when i could not hit the net, and since my mother board (intel`s) is manufactured from Korea, well, then perhaps the message was dilevered to the other end, when someone shouted loud n clear.

``you cannot do this to me``

isn`t that what the korean kid said ?

there is God Almighty ?

or even somes little lower than God Almighty.

did i ever went to virginia ?
do i have a mobile or other wise electronic or non-electronics link with others ?
do i reveal these emotions to others ?

i do know why spirits fall for One.


...

Re: # 98

Naqshbandi Sahib, I could never figure out (even after living in England) why the Brits refer to Americans as Yanks? I hope that Yanks is a term of endearment (as in liberators). Secondly, you are brainwashed by the typical anti-American European and British press. Here, let me ask you to find out these facts for yourself… ask yourself, what country has 12 million ‘illegal’ residents, vs what country is keen on challenging the Geneva convention on refuges and asylum seekers and spends over a billion dollars building refugee ‘detention’ centers. You are very misinformed my friend. Anti-immigrant political parties are gaining huge grounds in practically all EU nations. And you still believe that Europe is a refugee/immigrant friendly place? Do you know what Sarkozy is proposing to do (and mind you he is very popular, while he may not be Le Pen but he is not far off ideologically)? Europeans are intolerant and xenophobic. Wait and watch my friend.

naqshbandi #98 Other things equal, it would indeed be great to have a system where the quality of healthcare is based on need rather than ability to pay.

Other things are not equal, though, and this ideal is met to varying extents in the US vs UK systems. Thus, virtually every hospital in the US is chartered to provide medical care to anyone showing up at the emergency ward. Also, there is the other goal of promoting medical innovation - and here the US has led the world over the past few decades. A system that accomplishes this cannot be simply dismissed regardless of the benefits of socialized medicine.

tahmed

i quote the cases of yanks i have met simply because i have not lived in the USA. But I oppose on principal any system where the quality of the healthcare you can receive in based on your ability to pay.

#93 by Naqshbandi on April 27, 2007 11:52am PT


if i was a refugee or an asylum seeker i`d rather be in the EU than in the USA.


If you were a refugee or an asylum seeker, i`d rather you be in the EU too...

OTOH, productive immigrants are drawn towards the US more than the EU...ever wondered why?

Like Reagan said, you can`t migrate to germany and be a german but you can migrate to america and be an american...

from today`s paper-
CARY, Ill. -- A high school senior was arrested after writing that ``it would be funny`` to dream about opening fire in a building and having sex with the dead victims, authorities said.

Another passage in the essay advised his teacher at Cary-Grove High School: ``don`t be surprised on inspiring the first CG shooting,`` according to a criminal complaint filed this week.

Allen Lee, 18, faces two disorderly conduct charges over the creative-writing assignment, which he was given on Monday in English class at the northern Illinois school.

Students were told to ``write whatever comes to your mind. Do not judge or censor what you are writing,`` according to a copy of the assignment.

According to the complaint, Lee`s essay reads in part, ``Blood, sex and booze. Drugs, drugs, drugs are fun. Stab, stab, stab, stab, stab, s...t...a...b...puke. So I had this dream last night where I went into a building, pulled out two P90s and started shooting everyone, then had sex with the dead bodies. Well, not really, but it would be funny if I did.``

Officials described the essay as disturbing and inappropriate.

Lee said he was just following the directions.

``In creative writing, you`re told to exaggerate,`` Lee said. ``It was supposed to be just junk. ... There definitely is violent content, but they`re taking it out of context and making it something it isn`t.``

Lee was moved to an off-campus learning program, and the district was evaluating a punishment, schools spokesman Jeff Puma said.

``It wasn`t just violent or foul language,`` Puma said. ``It went beyond that.``

The teenager`s father, Albert Lee, has defended his son as a straight-A student who was just following instructions and contends the school overreacted. But he has also said he understands that the situation arose in the week after a Virginia Tech student gunned down 32 people before committing suicide.

Defense attorney Dane Loizzo said Allen Lee has never been disciplined in school and signed Marine enlistment papers last week.

A conviction could bring up to 30 days in jail and a maximum $1,500 fine.

naqshbandi #93 I am interested in the logic of the case, not in the views of middle class americans you have met. (btw, why are you always looking to other people to base your opinions, rather than focussing on the logic of the discussion? previously it used to be these long-dead arab men on religious matters and now it is middle class americans on economic issues?? reflect on this please at your leisure).

And to the extent you present logic, it is quite weak. i.e. You say ``i think that it is better for those asylum seekers to get aid than to starve`` Fact: immigrants (legal and illegal) dont starve in the US either.

You say they (i.e. immigrants living off the dole in europe) do eventually find work too. This begs the question. The fact is that the unemployment rate in europe is chronically higher than the US due to the reason I mentioned earlier (the reluctance of employers to give regular jobs to people knowing how hard it is to fire them once they come on board). As for immigrants, the fact is that under german law (as i understand it, and correct me if i am wrong), asylum seekers cannot get a job until their case is resolved. So they spend years on the dole. If this is not a recipe for building an entitlement mentality, I dont know what is.

#93 by Naqshbandi on April 27, 2007 11:52am PT


but the problem is enough americans


enough = majority

link

Previous polls have asked this differently; one last year asked if people would support or oppose ``a national health plan, financed by taxpayers, in which all Americans would get their insurance from a single government plan,`` and found 40 percent support. The wording in this ABCNEWS/Washington Post poll weighs the proposal against the current system, and adds the Medicare model to the description. Context also can play a role; this poll asks about universal health after a long and probing series of questions on the current system.

As noted, support for this universal system is conditional. If it limited Americans` choice of doctors, support drops sharply, from 62 percent to 35 percent. Likewise, if it meant waiting lists for some non-emergency treatments, support falls to 39 percent.


As noted, personal experience with the current system is positive, which serves to temper all these concerns. Among all Americans — even those who lack coverage — large majorities express satisfaction with their quality of health care (85 percent), ability to see a doctor (83 percent), ability to see good specialists (78 percent) and ability to get the most sophisticated treatments (77 percent).

Among uninsured Americans these ratings are lower — but, perhaps surprisingly, still mostly positive: Sixty-nine percent rate the quality of their health care positively; 73 percent, their ability to see a doctor; 55 percent, their ability to see top-quality specialists; 58 percent, their ability to get the latest treatments.

tahmed,

i know american society is divided on the issue--i have met enough middle class americans to know that a sizeable number of them would like to have an EU style social security and welfare/healthcare system with treatment free for all at the point of delivery. the working classes especially would like this but the problem is enough americans oppose this system to make it a political hot potato and a vote loser. it is this second group of wealthy americans who are too selfish to want to pay extra taxes to help the poor people in their country.

i think that it is better for those asylum seekers to get aid than to starve. they do eventually find work too.

if i was a refugee or an asylum seeker i`d rather be in the EU than in the USA.

---

kulharee,
i have no sympathy with such pakistani brits. they are lazy SOBs with the same victim mentality as the blacks in the USA (and in the UK). In a society like England with free education up to 16 and easily obtainable loans for university for all with some help with maintenance grants too there is NO excuse.

naqshbandi #87 Please dont make the mistake of passing negative judgements on an entire country (US, in your case) or community. Leave that for lesser individuals than yourself, like arjun and masadi.

On the subject of whether Europe or the US are better at taking care of their weakest members that you mention - that is a highly debateable point with pros and cons on both sides. Thus, e.g., I have seen ``asylum seekers`` from north africa being almost literally spoon-fed in Germany (i.e. I saw government-paid food being delivered to their residence, and was told by my relatives in Germany that these immigrants simply watch TV all day in their residence). I doubt if this is good for these ``asylum seekers`` in the long run, since it makes them feel that it is somone else`s responsibility to take care of them. Similarly, laws against firing workers in Europe have had the affect of increasing unemployment since employers are afraid to take on new workers whom they wont be able to fire. The US has a different philosophy, I think, one which emphasizes giving people opportunitities but not spoon-feeding them.

While it is impossible to achieve perfection in this field, the US approach I think is a more effective way to help the weakest members of society - the European approach of spoon-feeding immigrants being a classic case of the road to hell being paved with good intentions.

Re: # 90
Dr. Sohail
I do not disagree with your views regarding the treatment of the mentally disturbed. But it will be, in most societies that permit some degree of freedom, difficult to identify and treat such persons without restricting some of their privileges. A person can seem very normal till something drives them over the edge. Because we live in democracies where people can challenge restrictive laws in court we may never be able to isolate/negate the violent instincts of some such people

But by restricting not just guns but access to most sophisticated weaponry we can also achieve some degree of safety.

Right after the shooting one of the news channels interviewed an ex-FBI specialist, I forget her name now. She mentioned that her son goes to Oxford (UK) and there was an incident there where a man ran across a supermarket stabbing people. She stated that if it had been the US and the man had a gun there would have been a lot of dead people instead of injured ones.

As our weapons get more sophisticated it is important for the government to put laws in place that restrict possession and sales of such weapons. The right to bear arms was provided so that local militias would ensure that a fascist government could never oppose the will of the people. But this was true for a fledgling democary/state. We do not live in that age anymore. If we do not choose to restrict weapons then perhaps we will have more Cho`s.

After all the first shooting on a campus in the US took place in 1986 or so in Texas. It has been repeated many times now but while treatment of the mentally disturbed may have improved since 1986 very few checks have been put in the path of gun ownership.

Re: # 89
dear swarrior...thank you for bringing the discussion back to the topic. i fully agree with

you that there is no reason why people need to carry guns in their day to day lives. so i am

in favour of banning guns.

but that is one aspect of the problem.

the other factor is the mtivation of the crime...

people who are suffering from mental illness and are suicidal find ways to kill

themselves...taking overdoses....even jumping from the bridges....tall buildings

people who are part of violent religious and political organizations....

they can make bombs or burn government buildings or religious centres of their enemies

so VIOLENT CONSCIOUSNESS and REVENGE find ways to express themselves.

while we put bann on guns...we need to make those minds and communities more peaceful

that create those people that press the triggers

i am in favour of a broad based approach to violence

....biological...mental illness

....psychological..personality disorders

....social...violence in families

cultural....violent religious and political organizations promoting aggression for enemies

.....sincerely sohail

Dr.Sohail
Mentally disturbed people are present in all societies. So talking about societies hiding their people etc because they do not want to admit that people are mentally disturbed is simply taking away the main issue. All other societies have these people.
Massacres like these have occurred in other places too. There have been the Dunblane killings in Scotland, in your own Canada in Quebec in `89 , in Paris in 2002.
The main difference is that none of those killings have been repeated in any of these countries because strict gun laws were tightened even further.

The point is that in no country where such a killing occurred, is it now possible to easily and legally buy weaponry which is capable of the sort firepower that Cho produced.

I like guns myself and am interested in the mechanics of weapons. However there is no reason why an ordinary man in the US should own a handgun. A hunting rifle, a shot gun, yes, with proper licensing, this is a nation that likes to hunt.

But there should be a serious reworking of the laws on ownership of semi-automatic or automatic rifles , automatic handguns, speedloaders etc.

Re: # 87

Naqshbandi, Remember the riots in Paris about a year ago, “Muslim factor – as was/is labeled in the local media”. I am sure you do. And why do you think that the Paki youth is England is f’d up beyond repair? I am not even going to talk about Germany because Germans are just plain stupid. I don’t know what Europe you are talking about, it is one big fascist continent with only bigotry and racism only skin deep. You as a Desi should be ashamed of your community in England for the kind of hatred it promotes. Can you please tell us how their misery has anything to do with the US foreign policy? I am really surprised that Desis who are treated like scum in Europe will hold negative views about the US. I honestly am.

arjun,

this isnt about islam. as for saudi arabia i am the first to criticise their country. it is not a place i would like to live. if it wasnt for the presence of medina and makkah in that land which hold spiritual significance for me i would not respect SA at all.

we were comparing Western Europe and the USA. The rule about judging a society on how it treats its weakest is i think one which most civilised and thinking people will agree with. on that, the US sucks. The UK overall too is not doing as good as it should but that is because our leaders are trying to make it into a US clone. Still, I would much rather live and work in the socialist democracries of the EU than in the USA.

Masadi,

To which I commented, “The only way for Pakistan to develop is for it to form alliances wit the rest of the developing nations, and for them to collectively delink from the global economic system which is dominated by the U.S, whose institutions that produce predictable winners (the West) and losers (the developing world) are dominated by the U.S.

There was such a move. It was to be called `South Bank`.

Regards.

Re: # 81

Utterly & completely respected Masadi Sahib,


Your fascination with ``peons`` is amazing. According to you, Universities (UK/US/Pak) are just peon creating factories. According to you, organizations like World Bank, IMF etc are staffed by peons. According to you, anybody who dares to disagree with you, on Chowk or elsewhere, is also a peon. That the rest of the world just rejects you and your opinions completely is a naked truth which is evident now to all concerned. But you merrily continue to ignore the facts and harp on your ``peons vs elites`` theories. Being an object of ridicule, being rejected by US college, local college, Chowk editors etc would make any normal human being search for flaws within. But then, you are not a normal human being, are you. You are ``perfect`` in a world dominated by the powerful elite and populated by the imperfect foolish peons. You are great because every one in Lululand says so.

I shall repeat my advice given earlier in post #32. Stop raving and ranting. See a shrink. Stop typing. Stay away from computers. Do something constructive. Join a construction crew.

Wishing you well, Masadi.

duniyaN bhar de sharabiyO, ikk ho jao
duniyaN bhar de jihadiyO, pahjjO

hamidm sahib would love this news....today is too late but tomorrow I promise to have my weekly pegg of wine to celebrate this.

``According to Daily Pakistan, a famous khatib of Jamia Faridia Ahle Hadith, Kasur, Maulana Barakullah, was invited to a house and his one foot long beard, moustashe and eyebrows were shaved at gun point. The culprits who sold liquor suspected him of providing information to the police. The amir and senator of Jamiat Ahle Hadith Pir Sajid Mir and other ulema were furious and wanted strict punishment for the culprits. Police arrested three culprits while the others are still at large.``
:-)

#80 by dullabhatti on April 26, 2007 9:36pm PT


Bulleya, happiest are the people who follow their hearts


Capt Clueless didn`t ``follow his heart``..It was more like the INS was following his ass....

Arjun writes <<< so it follows that masadi is a peon creator....>>>

Your ``logic`` is just as convoluted as your morals. Firstly, peon`s aren`t created in the three weeks when I as getting acquainted with the culture and purpose of the institution. Second, my ideas as presented in the seminar we had which was attended by the entire faculty (except the master peon) and lack of submission to the rector- the master peon(what he referred to as my ``mini strike``) was the major reason why he felt threatened and let me go. Master peons don`t feel threatened by ``peon creators``, they feel threated by those that bust their mythology. Creating fireworks in that ``peon creating factory``- whose very name is unoriginal, borrowed from an institution in the UK, was what I did, which exposed the board and the master peon to the rest of the faculty.

Ironically like the other peon who visited this public university campus (see my blog for 4/20), this peon was also at the World Bank though at a less senior level...

Bulleya, happiest are the people who follow their hearts and at the end of the journey find out that their hearts were indeed in the right place and in right direction. Let me offer you best wishes that you find out 2 decades from now that your heart was on the right path. That is all that will matter.

``actually told indians, sri lankans and arabs to wear t-shirts with paki flags if they wanted to stay safe in the US..the premise being that Americans would be falling over themselves to thank the next paki they saw on the street..for Pakiland joining the war on terrorism...
``

HAR HAR...I remember that post....

#36 by okhla99 on April 25, 2007 8:47pm PT

hey okhla dude...how`s it going?

Did you see how masadi starting calling the paki college that fired him a ``peon creating factory``...so before they fired him, he was merrily working in the same ``peon creating factory``...so it follows that masadi is a peon creator....

#51 by Kulharee on April 26, 2007 6:34am PT



I hope that you will not be so judgmental of those who might not share your views of how US has been bad to the non-Americans.


You registered in 2003 so you`re unaware of capt clueless` history..in the days after 9/11, he was telling us how he was itching to give up his IT job and join the US invasion of Afghanistan..he even tols us pakis had it great in the US..actually told indians, sri lankans and arabs to wear t-shirts with paki flags if they wanted to stay safe in the US..the premise being that Americans would be falling over themselves to thank the next paki they saw on the street..for Pakiland joining the war on terrorism...

then the US started singling out pakis..and capt clueless migrated ``voluntarily`` to canada..and then canada became the great land where the jooos didn`t control the media and pakis got a fair shake(of course, he said this before the pakis in canada got busted for planning to behead the PM, Harper)...

#67 by Naqshbandi on April 26, 2007 12:03pm PT



an interesting discussion going on about canada vs usa system of living. i think that a society should be judged on how equitable it is, how it treats the weakest and poorest members


Who made that law? The practitioners of the religion of peace? How about how saudi arabia, the keepers of islam`s sacred shrines, treats it`s weakest and poorest members...the immigrants...

wonder why the ROPers are silent about the saudi princes who spend vast amounts of money on drugs, hookers and gamblers in europe while the average saudi has seen his per capita income drop...

#71 by Kulharee on April 26, 2007 12:33pm PT

Norway has a oil money pool that belongs to it`s citizens...

Capt clueless is only extolling the virtues of Canuckistan because he was forced to move there post-9/11...

Canada: Because the US has standards..

Okay...well I have lived in both US And Canada. I am Canadian, and have been living in the US for the past few years. I am also Desi.

I am with Kulharee on this one. US is much better then Canada in a lot of ways.

However, I guess if you are not young and ambitious, and just want a ``routine`` then Canada suits you well.

re: the myth that Canada welcomes immigrants. This is hog wash. Canadians tend to act all reserved and of course more evolved then Americans :). I have met very ignorant people in Canada, as well as US as well as in Europe, definately in the middle east, etc. (incidentally, I would never want to live in Middle East).

I found Americans (That I interact with) to be more open, welcoming, and friendly. There are less formalities, and you are more easiy accepted. (Of course I am in Southern California, so that may be one of the reasons for that as well). But Canadians are so ``tolerant`` that they are usually not welcoming to the hassle of being open to immigrants :)

Health Care sucks in both US and Canada. Canadians routinely fly out to US to get operations done. It is free but non-existant. Harmful. The US system is bad as well. You are reliant on insurance companies to make health decisions that affect your life. Lose-lose situation in both cases.

US sucks on the international area, as it is definately a bully. But Canada is just mentally challenged. It cannot makeup its mind about whether it is Socialist or Capitalist. It ends up being the worst of both.

i dont get this..why do pakis always come back to the square 1..good-ol amrica bashing? naqsh here is trying one report after another and keeps finding us in top few. NYC is like the bestest city in the world .. just the other day i said hi to tony bennett on central park west..he was walking without anyone harassing him..the rich and the poor (tony and the tangeywala taking tourist sowaris for 40 bucks) were happily co-exising together. why are the pakis getting azzburn?

Re: # 69

Naqshbandi,,, the countries above the US in the HDI -- ummm… countries as homogenous as Japan…. Norway… Sweden….. how about we send all the unhappy troopers to Norway? You cant compare something like Norway to the US. Norway will move to the last place if 18% of it’s population was immigrants. Total immigrant population in Norway is less than a medium size ethnic neighborhood of NYC. Please show some respect to the US. Thanks.

There is no other place like the US. Why is the UK so far down the list?

this is a fairer measure for the OECD nations:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Poverty_Index#The_human_poverty_index_for_developing_countries_.28HPI-1.29

The US now ranks bottom of the 16 countries.

``Each year since 1990 the Human Development Report has publishedthe human development index (HDI) that looks beyond GDP to a broaderdefinition of well-being. The HDI provides a composite measureof three dimensions of human development: living a long and healthylife (measured by life expectancy), being educated (measured byadult literacy and enrolment at the primary, secondary and tertiarylevel) and having a decent standard of living (measured by purchasingpower parity, PPP, income). The index is not in any sense a comprehensive measure of human development. It does not, for example, include important indicators such as inequality and difficult to measure indicators like respect for human rights and political freedoms.`` -HDI report 2006

Human Development Report 2006 (latest available)

I stand corrected, the US ranks 8th overall but still lags behind most EU countries in many areas.

an interesting discussion going on about canada vs usa system of living. i think that a society should be judged on how equitable it is, how it treats the weakest and poorest members and on those counts the USA is far far behind the countries of western Europe which offer a great social security blanket, free healthcare and free education and are much fairer as a result.

i work with many teachers from the US and they say they have a much higher standard of life here than in the USA where they tell me all the trillions of dollars of wealth is only for the top 10% or so and where the rest have to struggle, often doing 2 jobs, just to survive.

With my professional background i could go to the USA and probably earn more than i do in Europe but i wouldn`t want to be part of such a purely capitalist, dog-eat-dog society.

i havent been to the USA or to Scandinavia but I`d say that Scandinavian countries are the fairest of them all. Most UN Quality of Life/HIDI Indices are dominated by the EU in the top 10 positions along with the Canadians and Aussies.
America ranks quite down the table despite its immense wealth.

kulharee yar, my workplace and many towns in new england are full of economic refugees from canada that they have become french-canadian ghettos. i am very sure that they dont come here for the climate. they come for the 4 bedroom 2 car garage house with a yard.

Re: # 63
dear ali...1....we all make some choices in our life, personally and professionally. i chose to

understand and help people with emotional problems....do you see any problem with that?

..i wonder what choices you have made in your life....

by the way i liked the pictures you presented...quite nostalgic from qissa khani bazar

peshawar. i wonder how it has changed in 20 years that i did not see it. when were you

there last?...smiles...sohail