Fake Killings: People as Trophies
Subhash Gatade May 6, 2007
#113 Posted by nila on May 12, 2007 3:09:29 am
Re: # 109
Minorities have special privileges in opening and running educational instituitions.
These rights and privileges have been largely misused and in a state like Kerala, it is there for everyone to see.
If you look at the Capitation fee based Medical colleges , Engineering colleges , Nursing, pharmacy instituitions etc etc, they out do those run by the so called non-minorities by any number.
Of course their clients are only the rich irrespective of caste.
The government`s attempt to take away minority status from these instituitions, (because they do not serve the purpose for which this status is provided), has been thwarted by the court because of the provisions of the Constituition for minorities, I presume.
The Education minister in Kerala has now appealed to these instituitions to `reserve` a few seats for the benefit of minorities in whose name these charities are run.
The minister seems not to realise that the poor minorities are being well `educated` in Madrassas and the likes.
Minorities have special privileges in opening and running educational instituitions.
These rights and privileges have been largely misused and in a state like Kerala, it is there for everyone to see.
If you look at the Capitation fee based Medical colleges , Engineering colleges , Nursing, pharmacy instituitions etc etc, they out do those run by the so called non-minorities by any number.
Of course their clients are only the rich irrespective of caste.
The government`s attempt to take away minority status from these instituitions, (because they do not serve the purpose for which this status is provided), has been thwarted by the court because of the provisions of the Constituition for minorities, I presume.
The Education minister in Kerala has now appealed to these instituitions to `reserve` a few seats for the benefit of minorities in whose name these charities are run.
The minister seems not to realise that the poor minorities are being well `educated` in Madrassas and the likes.
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#112 Posted by nila on May 12, 2007 2:53:27 am
Re: # 111
What happens in India, should best be seen as India`s own problem, communal or otherwise.
And Indians, as long as there are Hindus, will be able to solve them, in a fair way sooner or later.
This is the impression that I get from this longwinded post, which keeps spewing forth the name of one Sreekumar in each sentence.
Just because `Sreekumar`, would be a Hindu, if not someone masquerading as one.
What happens in India, should best be seen as India`s own problem, communal or otherwise.
And Indians, as long as there are Hindus, will be able to solve them, in a fair way sooner or later.
This is the impression that I get from this longwinded post, which keeps spewing forth the name of one Sreekumar in each sentence.
Just because `Sreekumar`, would be a Hindu, if not someone masquerading as one.
#111 Posted by Zeena on May 12, 2007 12:24:12 am
Killing Muslims was fair game in Gujarat, says ex-cop
By IANS
Sunday May 6, 11:23 AM
New Delhi, May 6 (IANS) A former Gujarat Police officer says the Narendra Modi government had virtually institutionalized the killings of Muslims in staged shootouts and that he too was asked to kill some but he refused to.
According to R.B. Sreekumar, a former additional director general in charge of the intelligence wing in Gujarat Police, the cold-blooded murders were `an attempt to create a sympathy wave in favour of the chief minister whenever his leadership was questioned`.
Sreekumar, who earned Modi`s wrath for his statements against him during the trial of the accused in the 2002 communal violence, told IANS over telephone from Ahmedabad where he still lives that the state police was under pressure `politically` to conduct engineered shootouts.
Sreekumar`s comments came in the wake of the arrests of two senior Gujarat Police officers and one from Rajasthan following the killing of a Muslim man, Sohrabuddin Sheikh, in November 2005 after branding him a terrorist out to assassinate Modi. His wife too was summarily killed and her body burnt.
The dead man`s brother waged a spirited judicial battle for truth, leading the Supreme Court to order an inquiry that uncovered the grim truth.
Sreekumar said he had received `clear instructions` while in service to target the Muslim community in staged shootouts. He said he put his foot down.
`I have been also asked to conduct fake encounters, which I opposed,` he said. He added that former Punjab police chief K.P.S. Gill, who was then security advisor to the Gujarat chief minister, agreed with him and opposed any illegal killings.
According to Sreekumar, who retired in February this year, the Gujarat government`s admission before the apex court over the killings attributed to the arrested officer was only a `damage control` exercise.
`They have put the entire blame on the police officers who simply acted at the political leadership`s behest. The leadership is trying to wash its hands off,` he said.
Sreekumar pointed out that Sheikh`s murder took place ahead of the Bharatiya Janata Party`s (BJP) national executive in Mumbai in December 2005.
There had been speculation then that the BJP would consider a leadership change in Gujarat in the wake of mounting dissidence in the party unit against Modi.
Once it was made out in the media that terrorists were after Modi, the latter gained fresh stature.
Pointing out that people in Gujarat were deeply divided on religions lines, Sreekumar said: `The fake encounters have earned `a respectable status` as a device to prevent crime in the state. People have started accepting the staged killings as a necessity against crime.`
The retired officer also said while he was in service, he had many times received instructions to frame senior Muslim officials in government service.
Sreekumar alleged that he was once asked to prepare a report against an Indian Army officer related to a Bollywood actor.
Again, he refused saying the state police did not have anything to do with the military.
Sreekumar, who filed four affidavits against the Modi government before the Nanavati Commission that probed into the 2002 Gujarat riots, is now busy writing about his experiences in the state.
`In Gujarat you will be given all kinds of rewards if you do what the administration asks,` he said. `If you do not fall in line for them, you will be harassed.`
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By IANS
Sunday May 6, 11:23 AM
New Delhi, May 6 (IANS) A former Gujarat Police officer says the Narendra Modi government had virtually institutionalized the killings of Muslims in staged shootouts and that he too was asked to kill some but he refused to.
According to R.B. Sreekumar, a former additional director general in charge of the intelligence wing in Gujarat Police, the cold-blooded murders were `an attempt to create a sympathy wave in favour of the chief minister whenever his leadership was questioned`.
Sreekumar, who earned Modi`s wrath for his statements against him during the trial of the accused in the 2002 communal violence, told IANS over telephone from Ahmedabad where he still lives that the state police was under pressure `politically` to conduct engineered shootouts.
Sreekumar`s comments came in the wake of the arrests of two senior Gujarat Police officers and one from Rajasthan following the killing of a Muslim man, Sohrabuddin Sheikh, in November 2005 after branding him a terrorist out to assassinate Modi. His wife too was summarily killed and her body burnt.
The dead man`s brother waged a spirited judicial battle for truth, leading the Supreme Court to order an inquiry that uncovered the grim truth.
Sreekumar said he had received `clear instructions` while in service to target the Muslim community in staged shootouts. He said he put his foot down.
`I have been also asked to conduct fake encounters, which I opposed,` he said. He added that former Punjab police chief K.P.S. Gill, who was then security advisor to the Gujarat chief minister, agreed with him and opposed any illegal killings.
According to Sreekumar, who retired in February this year, the Gujarat government`s admission before the apex court over the killings attributed to the arrested officer was only a `damage control` exercise.
`They have put the entire blame on the police officers who simply acted at the political leadership`s behest. The leadership is trying to wash its hands off,` he said.
Sreekumar pointed out that Sheikh`s murder took place ahead of the Bharatiya Janata Party`s (BJP) national executive in Mumbai in December 2005.
There had been speculation then that the BJP would consider a leadership change in Gujarat in the wake of mounting dissidence in the party unit against Modi.
Once it was made out in the media that terrorists were after Modi, the latter gained fresh stature.
Pointing out that people in Gujarat were deeply divided on religions lines, Sreekumar said: `The fake encounters have earned `a respectable status` as a device to prevent crime in the state. People have started accepting the staged killings as a necessity against crime.`
The retired officer also said while he was in service, he had many times received instructions to frame senior Muslim officials in government service.
Sreekumar alleged that he was once asked to prepare a report against an Indian Army officer related to a Bollywood actor.
Again, he refused saying the state police did not have anything to do with the military.
Sreekumar, who filed four affidavits against the Modi government before the Nanavati Commission that probed into the 2002 Gujarat riots, is now busy writing about his experiences in the state.
`In Gujarat you will be given all kinds of rewards if you do what the administration asks,` he said. `If you do not fall in line for them, you will be harassed.`
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#110 Posted by harimau on May 11, 2007 8:49:31 pm
Ref parthaab #89
[The presence of Muslims has been found to be only 3% in the IAS, 1.8% in the IFS and 4% in the IPS.
Muslim community has a representation of only 4.5% in Indian Railways while 98.7% of them are positioned at lower levels.
Representation of Muslims is very low in the Universities and in Banks.
Their share in police constables is only 6%, in health 4.4%, in transport 6.5%.]
How about persons involved in the Mumbai bomb explosions? There Muslims have a 100% representation, don`t they?
How about extortion/protection rackets in major cities? What do you think is the representation of Muslims in that activity? Do you think it is less than 15% of the total?
How about bombings not just in India but in Madrid, London, Bali, NYC? Is 100% Muslim representation in those sufficient for you? Or would you like all communities to advance equally in those activities?
[The presence of Muslims has been found to be only 3% in the IAS, 1.8% in the IFS and 4% in the IPS.
Muslim community has a representation of only 4.5% in Indian Railways while 98.7% of them are positioned at lower levels.
Representation of Muslims is very low in the Universities and in Banks.
Their share in police constables is only 6%, in health 4.4%, in transport 6.5%.]
How about persons involved in the Mumbai bomb explosions? There Muslims have a 100% representation, don`t they?
How about extortion/protection rackets in major cities? What do you think is the representation of Muslims in that activity? Do you think it is less than 15% of the total?
How about bombings not just in India but in Madrid, London, Bali, NYC? Is 100% Muslim representation in those sufficient for you? Or would you like all communities to advance equally in those activities?
#109 Posted by Folio on May 11, 2007 4:11:44 pm
#108 by ModiForPM on May 11, 2007 3:56pm PT
Though I dont like ur name I can see a potential argument here.
Syed Ahmed Khan was kinda evangelical in imparting modern/western model of education 2 Indian muslims but the present scenario (esp in Gujarat is) looks frightening as there are opulent madrasa complexes in many towns and cities of Gujarat (there`s a huge one outside Godhra as well) but no opulent modern educational institutions!
Wud they/the Muslim leaders - if there are any visionaries - open well structured educational complexes for the Muslim youth? The jamaat type education is a dead-end 4 many youth. Invest in future! Wait for 20-30 years 2 see the fruits of such institutions.
Though I dont like ur name I can see a potential argument here.
Syed Ahmed Khan was kinda evangelical in imparting modern/western model of education 2 Indian muslims but the present scenario (esp in Gujarat is) looks frightening as there are opulent madrasa complexes in many towns and cities of Gujarat (there`s a huge one outside Godhra as well) but no opulent modern educational institutions!
Wud they/the Muslim leaders - if there are any visionaries - open well structured educational complexes for the Muslim youth? The jamaat type education is a dead-end 4 many youth. Invest in future! Wait for 20-30 years 2 see the fruits of such institutions.
#108 Posted by ModiForPM on May 11, 2007 3:56:33 pm
Re: # 104
Partaab, you are wrong regarding discrimination of Muslims in Government Jobs. It is true that only 3% of work force work in Government is Muslims against their 15% population in India. But 3% of applicant to government jobs are Muslims. Thus 3% apply and 3% gets selected. This is according to Sarkar Report.
Now, the question arises why only 3% of muslims eligible to apply for jobs. I think the answer goes to their Madraasas and our governments failure to provide decent primary and secondary education.
The goal should be to make atleast 15% of applicant Muslims and then see if there is any discrimination against them. If you find discrimination at that stage, then I agree that we need affirmative action.
Partaab, you are wrong regarding discrimination of Muslims in Government Jobs. It is true that only 3% of work force work in Government is Muslims against their 15% population in India. But 3% of applicant to government jobs are Muslims. Thus 3% apply and 3% gets selected. This is according to Sarkar Report.
Now, the question arises why only 3% of muslims eligible to apply for jobs. I think the answer goes to their Madraasas and our governments failure to provide decent primary and secondary education.
The goal should be to make atleast 15% of applicant Muslims and then see if there is any discrimination against them. If you find discrimination at that stage, then I agree that we need affirmative action.
#107 Posted by TOLKININ on May 11, 2007 1:30:42 pm
Encounters or extra judicial killings are not a new phenomena for Indian state, though it has
changed its position or acceptability in the public psyche for past few years. Thanks goes largely to the Mumbai film industry for making several films `inspired` by the real life of an encounter specialist.
After the box office success of such films, one can say that the act of extra judicial killing , which otherwise is a gross violation of the Justice system, the very aspect of our Constitution( by denying the fundamental right to live), the civil liberties and the human rights, now got legitimacy in the Indian society.
changed its position or acceptability in the public psyche for past few years. Thanks goes largely to the Mumbai film industry for making several films `inspired` by the real life of an encounter specialist.
After the box office success of such films, one can say that the act of extra judicial killing , which otherwise is a gross violation of the Justice system, the very aspect of our Constitution( by denying the fundamental right to live), the civil liberties and the human rights, now got legitimacy in the Indian society.
#106 Posted by nila on May 11, 2007 12:44:00 pm
Re: # 104
Exactly.
If you cannot convince them confuse them, this time with another convoluted reservation strategy.
However is reservation the only way out?
If so why cannot economic backwardness be the criterion?
Uppercastes will be ineligible by default, becuse of the immense wealth their forefathers have stashed away, and which they enjoy now.
All those Muslims languishing in villages without water electricity and roads, and struggling in the <500 Rupees bracket in urban areas will be benefitted.
The only problem is that people will have to find methods to perpetually remain poor, which will not be easy once they have a job which pays them and automatically takes them off the reserved category.
Howver unemployment will increase what with the likes of Shahabudden, Gatade, Ms.Roy.....not to mention the Mayawatis and Mulayams joining the unemployed ranks.
Exactly.
If you cannot convince them confuse them, this time with another convoluted reservation strategy.
However is reservation the only way out?
If so why cannot economic backwardness be the criterion?
Uppercastes will be ineligible by default, becuse of the immense wealth their forefathers have stashed away, and which they enjoy now.
All those Muslims languishing in villages without water electricity and roads, and struggling in the <500 Rupees bracket in urban areas will be benefitted.
The only problem is that people will have to find methods to perpetually remain poor, which will not be easy once they have a job which pays them and automatically takes them off the reserved category.
Howver unemployment will increase what with the likes of Shahabudden, Gatade, Ms.Roy.....not to mention the Mayawatis and Mulayams joining the unemployed ranks.
#105 Posted by swarrier on May 11, 2007 10:54:05 am
Re: # 104
[Of course, the answer does not lie in reservations. And yet, there is something poignantly wrong, when an interview to the civil services can accept only 3% of interviewees, when actually 15% of the population belongs to that religion]
So you are saying that at least 15% of the the candidates for the civil services are Muslim and only 3% are selected. Can you back this up? This is a serious question, no sarcasm is intended.
Not that civil services are plum positions for the well heeled, multinational firms are definitely the job destinations of choice.
[Of course, the answer does not lie in reservations. And yet, there is something poignantly wrong, when an interview to the civil services can accept only 3% of interviewees, when actually 15% of the population belongs to that religion]
So you are saying that at least 15% of the the candidates for the civil services are Muslim and only 3% are selected. Can you back this up? This is a serious question, no sarcasm is intended.
Not that civil services are plum positions for the well heeled, multinational firms are definitely the job destinations of choice.
#104 Posted by parthaab on May 11, 2007 9:54:34 am
Re : #103
It is an unfortunate fact, that under-development in India is community based - however hard it may be to swallow. No individual based specific solutions can remedy the situation, as a whole community is involved.
Re: # 102
The secular state should stay away from religion when such attention is to the detriment of another. An example is Hitlers Germany and Saudi Arabia.
However, when a segment of society, be it SC/ST/OBC/Muslim/Christian/Mountain Tribe, no state, however secular, can sit back and let things by.
Of course, the answer does not lie in reservations. And yet, there is something poignantly wrong, when an interview to the civil services can accept only 3% of interviewees, when actually 15% of the population belongs to that religion. The same, it can be argued, can apply to caste. It could be a necessary evil that a proportion of the civil services should be reserved for the deprived community.
The problems arise only when forward castes have to fight in `open` along with the reserved candidates. Ideally, the reservations for jobs should ensure that all communities have proportionate reservation. Thus, this 15% of the muslim population should not be allowed into the general category. Within this 15%, a creamy layer concept is workable.
If proportionately allocated, this reservation system could become acceptable even to the forward castes.
It is an unfortunate fact, that under-development in India is community based - however hard it may be to swallow. No individual based specific solutions can remedy the situation, as a whole community is involved.
Re: # 102
The secular state should stay away from religion when such attention is to the detriment of another. An example is Hitlers Germany and Saudi Arabia.
However, when a segment of society, be it SC/ST/OBC/Muslim/Christian/Mountain Tribe, no state, however secular, can sit back and let things by.
Of course, the answer does not lie in reservations. And yet, there is something poignantly wrong, when an interview to the civil services can accept only 3% of interviewees, when actually 15% of the population belongs to that religion. The same, it can be argued, can apply to caste. It could be a necessary evil that a proportion of the civil services should be reserved for the deprived community.
The problems arise only when forward castes have to fight in `open` along with the reserved candidates. Ideally, the reservations for jobs should ensure that all communities have proportionate reservation. Thus, this 15% of the muslim population should not be allowed into the general category. Within this 15%, a creamy layer concept is workable.
If proportionately allocated, this reservation system could become acceptable even to the forward castes.
#103 Posted by nila on May 11, 2007 8:36:21 am
Re: # 101
``All communities need to develop equally``.
Wrong. Painfully and pitiably wrong.
Even after all these deliberations you still feel that all `communities` need to develop...not that all people need to develop....not even that all Indians need to develop.
And I don`t blame you entirely.
The fault lies in our Constituition itself which proclaiming itself to be Secular on one hand, is all about reminding every single man day in and day out as to what religion/caste he belongs to, and what religion or caste his neighbour is.
There is no instance where it says truly that you can safely forget religion and caste, and still you will be taken care of by the state.
As long as the tendency to offer special rights and privileges based on religion and caste exists, people will cling madly to their religions and castes.
After all, thats the only `constituitionally guaranteed` survival portal from poverty and misery.
Ignoring this basic flaw,let`s just sit back and wish away religion, castes and casteism in India.
``All communities need to develop equally``.
Wrong. Painfully and pitiably wrong.
Even after all these deliberations you still feel that all `communities` need to develop...not that all people need to develop....not even that all Indians need to develop.
And I don`t blame you entirely.
The fault lies in our Constituition itself which proclaiming itself to be Secular on one hand, is all about reminding every single man day in and day out as to what religion/caste he belongs to, and what religion or caste his neighbour is.
There is no instance where it says truly that you can safely forget religion and caste, and still you will be taken care of by the state.
As long as the tendency to offer special rights and privileges based on religion and caste exists, people will cling madly to their religions and castes.
After all, thats the only `constituitionally guaranteed` survival portal from poverty and misery.
Ignoring this basic flaw,let`s just sit back and wish away religion, castes and casteism in India.
#102 Posted by swarrier on May 11, 2007 6:53:39 am
Re: # 101
By Parthaab.
[As you pointed out, there may be many reasons for the poor employment of muslims, but in a truly secular society this should be pro-actively corrected.]
Wasn`t it you who said that the state should stay away from religion, and that is the true definition of secularism.
Going by your logic then , the hell it should.
The state should treat every individual as equal and not provide sops (pro-active correction) on religious backgrounds.
As I`ve said before, sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
By Parthaab.
[As you pointed out, there may be many reasons for the poor employment of muslims, but in a truly secular society this should be pro-actively corrected.]
Wasn`t it you who said that the state should stay away from religion, and that is the true definition of secularism.
Going by your logic then , the hell it should.
The state should treat every individual as equal and not provide sops (pro-active correction) on religious backgrounds.
As I`ve said before, sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
#101 Posted by parthaab on May 11, 2007 4:03:22 am
Re: # 97 Nila,
All communities need to develop equally.
As you pointed out, there may be many reasons for the poor employment of muslims, but in a truly secular society this should be pro-actively corrected.
No doubt there is resistance to education from within muslims, but many of the reasons are correctable and no truly secular society would stay away from acting.
All communities need to develop equally.
As you pointed out, there may be many reasons for the poor employment of muslims, but in a truly secular society this should be pro-actively corrected.
No doubt there is resistance to education from within muslims, but many of the reasons are correctable and no truly secular society would stay away from acting.
#100 Posted by HP on May 10, 2007 11:36:02 pm
Btw, I was watching UP election results on TV. I have interest in two candidates ( did not see their names so I believe they both lost)
It seems that Dalit, Muslim and Upper caste alliance is back in power. Though now they are being led by Mayawati and not by Nehru and Mrs. Gandhi clan. The Muslim, Dalit and Upper caste alliance kept Congress in power for a long time but now, obviously, mayawati is the inheritor of this grand political alliance.
#99 Posted by dullabhatti on May 10, 2007 10:23:39 pm
extra judicial killing, torture, abductions by police is a bad thing for any country for the long term and for the short term. I can`t believe it still goes on India...good thing is atleast there is public noise that will rein the police or at least make them think twice next time. It is also a very complex issue and may not necessarily be motivated by politics or secterian fanaticism...at the basic level it is mis-use of power by the police. A clerk in the office misuses his office to change the priorities of applications, teacher favors one student over the other, a policeman uses his gun to silense someone for whatever reasons. it is hard to save what motivated this killing or whether the guy was a bad guy (what if he was. does not deserve to be killed..unless this is the new law to kill bad guys by police)...on the other hand since it happens so often ..what is the big deal?
#98 Posted by dullabhatti on May 10, 2007 10:23:31 pm
extra judicial killing, torture, abductions by police is a bad thing for any country for the long term and for the short term. I can`t believe it still goes on India...good thing is atleast there is public noise that will rein the police or at least make them think twice next time. It is also a very complex issue and may not necessarily be motivated by politics or secterian fanaticism...at the basic level it is mis-use of power by the police. A clerk in the office misuses his office to change the priorities of applications, teacher favors one student over the other, a policeman uses his gun to silense someone for whatever reasons. it is hard to save what motivated this killing or whether the guy was a bad guy (what if he was. does not deserve to be killed..unless this is the new law to kill bad guys by police)...on the other hand since it happens so often ..what is the big deal?
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