Citizenship and Identity in Pakistan

Re: # 293
Rafay mian

Some people just refuse to look forward and upward... YLH is one... for some reason, kaal has joined the freak show... :)

Re kaalchakra # 279: I saw the words ``Cabinet`` ``Mission`` and ``Plan``. Whoa. Welcome to the 21st century. I spend my days around ideas (and laws) dating from the Colonial period. My expert analysis: Brilliant, for the time. Now they`re ideas well-past their expiry date.

All of you: You can`t predict Pakistan`s future by exclusively looking into the past. Our demographics (a majority under 30, nearly 50% of the population urbanized, a poor but widespread education system and, yes, cable TV) suggest that Partition is something that belongs in the history books (sorry for stating the obvious). There`s too much stuff going on now, and the rhetoric of Partition is not suited for today`s debates.

YLH: Let me be the devil`s advocate (you know I always agree with what you think ;): Do away with the provinces. They model is outdated anyway. Keep the Districts and the Federation. In the age of the internet and mobile phones, what does the Province do anyway (other than misuse the police)? Get the idea?

Mananamuthu,

All I can say is that everyone has their own mechanism of justifying themselves... and defending the indefensible. What if is only one such exercise. FYI I have not made any extravagant claims about what would have happened if Cabinet Mission Plan would have been adopted...

I merely concerned about the facts. Kaalchakra has already enumerated the many reasons why this article does not relate to Indians... so I am frankly stumped why Indians like you and Chennai over here persist on proving to yourself that you did the right thing by rejecting the Cabinet Mission Plan... you did it... right or wrong ... no need to apologise and think up new and colorful excuses for it.

Dear Pew research,

To quote what you said.... little knowledge is dangerous. You`ve proved that several times on this board. Do refer to #212 to see how often and how outrageously wrong you often are...

1. There is no PCO in force in Pakistan since 2002. It is the constitution of 1973 (which I don`t personally agree with) that is in force in Pakistan since it was restored in 2002...

2. It is quite clear that it is you who are clutching. You clearly had no argument so you`ve gotten into another discussion. As usual... your research is not on the mark... the method of election in Pakistan was joint till 1978 under both 1956 and 1973... Joint electorate was restored in January 2002.

3. There are no ``versions`` of the ``suspended`` constitution. There is one constitution (which I dislike for many reasons) of 1973... which has had many amendments and additions since 1973. Nor is it suspended right now... it was suspended twice 1977-1984 and then 1999-2002.... when Provisional Constitutional Order was in force.

4. All of this has nothing to do with the argument that you had undertaken which was based on several shaky premises.


Next time do your research before you speak or make extravagant claims which blow in your face (as they often do).

Chennai:

think it is time we Indians confer the Padma Shri to Jinnah saab. He envisaged a situation where the trouble makers, the riff raffs of his community would hinder the development of an independent India and so got a moth-eaten wasteland where these people could settle down and do what they do best...........


I think you are denigrating the contribution of Jinnah towards India by offering him just the `padma shri``. Jinnah should be given the ``Bharat ratna``. and celebrated by all Indians. Think about how India was so close to disaster by almost accepting the ``Cabinet Mission Plan``. Thank Allah that sanity prevailed and Nehru renounced it. Otherwise instead of a ``moth eaten pakistan`` we would have had a ``moth eaten Hindustan`` a few years down the line and a continuing saga of problems unrelated to the development of all the people resulting in whether a Muslim or a Hindu gets the government peon post. It would have been like Lebanon or Nigeria of today where the colonialists left power with a single political entity with Muslims and Christians fighting it out.

Re: # 287 Manto

``...Pakistanis chose joint electorate as the method of election under both constitutions of 1956 and 1973...``

You are clutching at straws. There are so many suspended versions of your god-forsaken constitution that they need to be put under effective configuration management:) A desi code coolie could help you do that along with his version of Java/.Net code:) My head is dizzy with which Constitution says what. But, wait a minute. They are all suspended/annulled/neutered today. The only constitution is the PCO, correct? So, who frikkin` cares what the constitution says? Why do you insist on introducing irrelevant details.

Dear teshah,

The legally correct position Pakistan is a federation because of the Independence of India Act 1947 and The Republic of India is a federation because of the same. Legally Pakistan and India were jointly the successors in interest to British India. If these facts are not recognised, then it is the fault of those who seek to confuse simple facts.

You are quite correct when you say that Dr. Iqbal, who gave the idea of a Muslim majority state, wrote tarana hindi as well. The implications of this are far reaching impact... especially when one considers this statement from Jinnah when explaining the Lahore Resolution:

``Muslims are proud to be Indians and India for Indians is the spirit behind Lahore Resolution``

The solution for this predicament is to take the concept of citizenship and divorce it from identity/nationalism/communalism/ideology... and allow citizenry to follow the basic principles of citizenship... as in tax, law, rights and obligations.

Dear Pew research,

Your first line sums up your dilemma. I am sure you know (given that you possess infinitely more knowledge than me) that

a. An independent Bangladesh agreed upon by Sarat Bose, Jinnah and Suhrawardy was vetoed by Nehru in 1947.

b. Evil Evil Pakistanis chose joint electorate as the method of election under both constitutions of 1956 and 1973... and these included people who considered Jinnah`s 11th August Speech as too secular and unIslamic.

Azad`s dedication of his book to Nehru mian is the only thing that is irrelevant here... and that is a point your brought up.


Dear BJkumar,

I agree with your post generally with some exceptions. Yes identities change over time. Precisely why we should allow them to evolve instead of slapping people around. Your effort to ascribe a noble vision to India`s ``founding`` is as false as your effort to condemn Pakistan to an exclusivist one. Practical realities of today need not reflect on what was intended then. You said it yourself.

Anil,

I agree with your post.


Rafay Alam,


Please see #200... I disagree with your comment... I am merely advocating a system of governance that brings together the normal federal principle, the one man one vote democracy and the federation of communities into one single state...

In many ways... I am advocating an essentially ``integrationist`` idea... you are talking of balkanisation along district lines which is akin to making life more difficult.

The reason why your territorial division along district lines is bound to fail is because what is true of Pakistan over all... is true of cities like Karachi and Lahore... and even smaller towns and villages....

The system of local government is important ... but the idea I have given is not pooh poohing either the local government system or the provincial system... which are a separate issue... I am talking of a sort of a power sharing agreement at a central level which would bring all these people together as Pakistanis... and a state based on : One man One vote (NA) + Federation of Provinces (Senate) + Federation of Communities (Third house) would be the best solution.

Other wise- applying your idea-... what would you do to the ANP`s red flags in MQM`s Karachi?

Re:#285 by masanamuthu

I think it is time we Indians confer the Padma Shri to Jinnah saab. He envisaged a situation where the trouble makers, the riff raffs of his community would hinder the development of an independent India and so got a moth-eaten wasteland where these people could settle down and do what they do best...........

Today Jinnah Saabs wasteland is an internationally acclaimed export oriented nation; exporting high quality Islamic terrorism, Jehadism, nuclear weapons and the likes.......

Other then nuclear weapons, they first do several dry runs on their own citizens and then after fine-tuning, start exporting..........................

If you happen to be a citizen of this wasteland, you are a most welcome visitor to other countries; the immigration officials there always make it a point to spend extra time with them to welcome them...................

Jinnah saab for Padma Shri.............

Which is what I never understood... on one hand pakis boast of their superior ancestry derived from bedouins/uzbeks/mongols and how they ruled hinuds ....and then they turn around and claim deprivation and domination by hinuds...
pakis and their paranoia - it never ends...

``Paranoia`` is the main driver behind Pakistan movement and it is not based on ``facts``. But I`m all happy for it and I think every Indian should feel so and thank Jinnah for the service he did to India.

Re: # 87

Manto

No dear Manto. What I had
tried to emphasize was the fact that the federation of Pakistan was not a country, ipso facto, but an artificially state carved out of India by the Independence Act which imposed a new identity on a part of Indian citizens. It created many absurdities though. For instance, I was born in that part of India wh later came to be known as Pakistan, but I can`t record this fact in my application for the National Identity Card. I saw a Bihari migrating from Bangladesh insisting on recording his birth place as Pakistan when Nadra officials insisted that he should record it as Bangladesh, though this desh, the very name of which the Bihari hated, had not existed even when he was born. Just imagine how precariously the artificial identities created by Partition stand that of all the world the `States of Hindostan` cannot allow inter-state dual citizenship to their citizens which could have solved many of their mutual problems, even that of Kashmir, despite the fact that Dr Iqbal, a Kashmiri, had sung a song `` Hindi hein ham watan he Hindostan hamara``.

And now Karachi has been made a virtual `No-go` area even for the CJ of Pakistan by the people who call themselves `Mahajarin` of India.

I wonder how long this theatre of absurdity would go on.

Re: # 282

This not as if you are buying pants - try and see if it fits... :)...

What people in subcontinent really need is jobs and security - and that is a universal concern - same for majority and minority... what they really need is good governance that focuses on economy, law and order... not some cooked up theory for social re-engineering... which has been derived from something that had already been debunked and discarded by history...

mohar11

At least it should be tried Conditions are so much more favorable now. Granted Indians never believed in the arrangement; but with belief already in place, half the battle should be won at the outset.

And pakiland`s problems will not be solved by having a third house with a thousand members... it`s a joke... Only YLH, the freak, can come up with such lunatic ideas... :)

Re: # 279

Dude - what`s up with this ``Cabinet Mission Plan`` thingy? you and YLH are obsessed with it... that sh!t didn`t work then, and will not work now... stop flogging dead horses...

And stop dissecting everything thru majority-minority cr@p... after a point, it`s counter-productive... as made clear by events of past...

Get over it already...

rafay_alam

Majorities are often even more oppressive at various local levels (they receive less external scrutiny) than at the national level. So decentralization can make matters significantly worse. Besides that might render minorities largely irrelevant in influencing issues of nation-wide importance.

Decentralization can work if you implement a Pakistani version of the Cabinet Mission Plan. Some districts can be exclusively alotted to Christians, some to Hindus etc, and in the national, aggregative setup, representatives from these districts be given significant weights. Not the easiest to implement option, but the good news is that minorities in Pakistan are not large enough to cause any reasonable anxiety to anyone else.