What Next After Karachi’s Carnage?

PM (#767),

Valid comments and inquiries, but first, let me properly set up the context of “prophethood” issue as I see it.

Prophethood in itself is a non-issue. Whether a person believes in Mirza Sahib, or Jesus, or Muhammad, or Buddha, in itself is not critical. However, what is important is the particular style of reasoning employed by a person, whereby he uses one set of criteria to validate his own beliefs, while using a different set of criteria to belittle, renounce someone else’s beliefs.

Even-handedness and impartiality are virtues worth acquiring. Prophethood issue is but one issue which strikes a chord with great majority of ummah and highlights inconsistencies in its reasoning. My post #783 touches upon some aspects of this issue.

A person like hamidm ridicules all faiths. Due to his even-handedness, I have no issues with his views even as he takes jibes at Ahmadis. His impartiality is what makes his views acceptable to me. And it is this impartiality that I find absent in several others … tahmed, philosopher, Urstruly, abu_safwaan, zeena, echo, zeemax, etc. etc.

One of these members (philosopher) earlier commented that he did not think any Quranic verse supported continuation of prophethood. I asked if he could point to any verse that supported end of prophethood. He ridiculed me, while dropping the issue altogether. What should one make of this?

In one of his posts, tahmed cited views of ullema and 95% Muslims … who support end of prophethood. What he ignored was the fact that these ullema and Muslims also support sacrificing animals to celebrate Eid and hold in esteem ahadith, institution of khilafat, khalifaas … views that tahmed seemingly despises. So what’s the point of citing support from ullema and 95% Muslims? It comes across as disingenuous, more than anything else.

Urstruly used to argue on basis of Quran. But since he has failed to make his case on “seal” issue, he now merely cites verdicts of scholars. Such reasoning seems to have become hallmark of ummah. Very much same is the case with others I mentioned.

+++

Prophethood in itself is not an issue. If a person does not believe in continuation of prohethood, or Mirza Sahib, it is not a problem for me. What becomes an issue is mean-spiritedness and lack of impartiality at times displayed by ummah on this issue. Such double-standards and hypocrisy are crux of the matter, which are doing the ummah in, in more ways than one.

More later …

Abu_safwan (#702),

You are confusing two issues here: A person talking to god is a spiritual experience, outside the domain of science. However, the notion that a human, that is, Jesus, will descend down to earth (but did he ever ascend in the first place? I am not so sure) is completely at odds with science and collective human experience.

As long as we are talking science, try to distinguish between what does not, and what does, fall in its domain.

And btw, which “loonie toon talking to god” are you referring to? It could be Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) for some! I hope you see the irony.

If you mean Mirza Sahib, and you want proof of his prophethood, then first you need to square away a few issues. Issues I am raising below are meant to make you question your own approach:

- What proof do you have for prophethood of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)? Note that 80% of the world still does not buy it. What do you mean by proof? What good is your proof?

- Furthermore, if you believe that prophethood has ended, no proof can satisfy you about Mirza Sahib. Do you see the futility of your method? You are placing the cart before the horse.

- And furthermore yet, what kind of proof of prophthood do you ask for? A prophet walking on water? A prophet raising the dead out of his grave? Pardon me, but no prophet, including those mentioned in Quran, fit this bill. So keep searching …!

(and no point dragging hamidm into this … it reflects poorly on you)

+++

Your comments about Ahmadis wanting a Qadiyani dictator … are speculative and incorrect. If people of Pakistan wrong Ahmadis, the matter rests with Allah Almighty. I have faith in Him and would plead my case to Him, and not to anyone else. And as an Ahmadi Muslim, a human being, I would certainly strive to make rule of the land equitable and dignified for everyone, and not just for Ahmadis. A democracy that is blatantly unjust to some, deserves to be challenged, regardless of majority vote. One must strive peacefully, within the limits of law, to bring about betterment of the society. Ultimately we all will be answerable to the Almighty regarding our thoughts and actions. That is what Islam teaches me, and I am quite alright with it.

Zahra: ``Musharraf`s weeping`` would be hilarious if it wasnt for the fact that 42 peaceful demonstrators were murdered in cold blood on May 12 due to his determination to suppress the basic rights to peaceful demonstration that is guaranteed to citizens of all civilized countries.

#780 by Zeena on May 24, 2007 1:56pm PT


So, this is what they think democracy is......sick....just sick...


yes...that`s democracy in action....in fact, lincoln said democracy is government by the people who want to grope other people...you should stay away from democracy like good muslims that you are...

you should stick with dictatorship...that seems to be working out very well for most pakis, except the few thousand bengali women who were raped in 71 by armymen and the odd shazia khalid....


p.s. what about the country you live in, the US of A...it has a democracy...since you`ve told us democracy means women get groped, when are you packing your goat and moving to the land of the pure where you won`t have to face this ignominy

#778 folio sahib

Exactly, bravo....you gave me the right answer.....

This public display of rape by a prominent leader for another prominent female leader is condemnable.....

But, my only question is......if a woman is such a weak woman who takes such rape in public with smile then she is a loser.....she shouldn`t be a leader......

Why is she unable to stand up on her feet and file charges of rape for another guy?
Nobody wellcomes rape with smile.....there something else going on.......

And the tragedy is this that these leaders are out there to cry out loud for the democracy......LOL

So, this is what they think democracy is......sick....just sick...

Folio sahib/sahiba

Whne people here throw muds on these burqa clads and call them bitc*s then you don`t seem to be concerned.....wawawa
They are also women.......but b/c they are not in agreement with your ideology so, you and others make it their life to abuse them.......

So, many interactors abused me on Hafsa girls article for my stand ....I still can show you their posts...no one of you stood up for me for being abused just for my own POV.......

Why this hypocrisy?

While here I am just asking these two leaders of Pakistan to answer for this perverted sexual exhibition in public.....And this has got nothing to do with mud or something...If, this lady and the man wish they can do that in private.......
Why in public?

And trust me this is considered perversion anywhere in any society......

Thanks.

Xena Dahling,

She didnt solicit any sexual favours from that guy.

If u think moving in public attracts such behaviour from men then I pity the society, not the woman.

Sherry has nothing feel ashamed of. It`s the senseless guy on her right side who shud.

CU later..

#776 Folio sahib/sahiba
Exactly, I am absolutely NOT throwing any mud on any woman...If you read my posts you will know my stand.....

If, sheree rehman is victim then she should stand up for herself....b/c she is a role model for Pakistani women....she is a leader...

But, if, she is not a victime means that she is in agreement with the other guy for this kind of abusive behviour then it is worst....b/c she should do it in her own private place.....And the same goes for that man .....

I am just asking you a fair deal here....she is a public figure, she is a prominent PPP MNA..she is a woman leader, then she is answerable to this action, too. Simple.....

Democracy is not just crying out loud slogans...democracy is that each and every leader is answerable to th epeople who chose him/her for their actions......Simple.

Sheree Rehamn rape victim or adulterer? and the other rapist/adulterer leaders? they are the role models to lead Pakistani nation towards what? towards rapeor adultry in public.......

Xena Dahling,


Phleez, Dont throw mud on another woman without knwoing much abt Sherry and ignoring the edited portion of the video publisher. If Sherry wants she can bed with anybody she likes, much like any other woman in this world.

Thanks.

Dear Dr. Hoodbhoy -

In addition to these miscreants in Islamabad, you may have to write a piece on Musharraf`s weeping. That`s the most hilarious news coverage in the history of politics that I have been exposed to.

I am sure you will have your hands full in the next few months to update the readership on interesting stories from the land of revolutionists and miscreants.

Look forward to reading your perspective.

Best Regards.

#748 by Folio sahib/sahiba

Whether you agree or disagree....that doesn`t make any difference....to you your faith and to me mine........

And I am not here to convince anyone or to argue with anyone....

I will always speak up my mind, when and where I need to? Even, if, people will try to choke my voice, I will never ever stop....Period.

If, you have any problem with my views then better not waste your time on me.....Thanks

PS:- Friendly suggestion, do not read my posts, they don`t conform with your mind.....thanks

#770 ZahraJ bibi

Just one request, get a life...other than being obsessed about me....

Please, read my post for you where I showed you a mirror.....
Here a woman leader is either being raped in public or committing adultry?

I am just asking for this behaviour...Why Pakistanis have such leaders who are even unable to standup for their own rights?

If, MM( a poor lady) can stand up for her rights and can face all the filth that was thrown on her and fought back, then what is stopping sheeree Rehman for filing a report for the charges of rape against her own rapist?

Where is the courage?

Anyway, again just get a life, and focus on those interactors who are dying for your attention..Please, don`t waste your precious time on me.....as per your words, I am just a sick loser......

All the best....

#752 by rf786 on May 24, 2007 10:13am PT
Re: # 736

[[[Height of shamelesness is another woman like yourself using this crap video for personal agendas. Clearly, the lady was caught off-guard and behaved in the most civilized manner of trying to manage this uncomfortable position.

By the way, sharam is supposed to be in the eye.....u seem to have a hair of a creature most repugnant. Pathetic to say the least, u have stooped to another low.]]]]]

rf786 aka multiple nicks....
Why don`t you come up with your other prominent ID? You always attack me personally for your own agendas.

Yes, this is civilized for you either to be raped by a man and take that rape with a civilized gesture.

Wawawawa.......so, I consider accepting this rape in public as a civilized gesture....What an example that this Pakistani leader is setting up?

One leader raping the other female leader in public and the female leader is taking or embraccing that rape with an open smile and that is called civilized gesture in your dictionary........who is sick here? who is stooping to a low class attitude here? who is hypocrite here? who is shameless here? Just think with sane mind and you`ll find your answers.......

Who is supporting this rape here? The lady leader....

And you when do not find any answer as usual get fired up and start attacking me personally...So, no doubt you`ll tell your own family females also to take such great gestures gracefully.......

Alright, now the scenario changes, if both of them have given a consent for this great public vulgar sexually perverted display then , why in public? why such desperation?


And they are the so called leaders of Pakistan........leaders or scum bags and whoever support their r adultry they are also scum bags...

My only question is why Pakistanis let such scum bags as their leaders......Who will take care of that nation whose leaders are either rapists or adulterers.............What an unfortunate nation!!!


Sheree Rehamn rape victim or adulterer? and the other rapist/adulterer leaders? they are the role models to lead Pakistani nation towards what? towards rapeor adultry in public.......

Wonderful!!!

And some people on this forum have practically started abusing me for using my own freedom of expression and for asking these fair questions from those who think this is alright to accept being raped in public with smile.......but,. that`s a crime to wear burqa......

For those who think this rape victim is civilized to take that open rape in public with smile is civilized......they are livingh in fool`s paradise.......

And tragedy is they do not consider this a rape or adultry.......

Anyway, I can not call an extremely sick and perverted behaviour as civilized......

If, sheree Rehman would have been innocent, then she should have stood up for her right.......Why she took that rape with a smile?

So, it means that she is not innocent, there is more to this rape and that is the monster male leader did that sexula exhibition with her consent.........

So, in that case , sheeree rehman is a culprit...........she and the other basta*d should answer the whole nation for thier act.........Simple....There is no ifs, or buts... here...

In #768 read <<< Keeping his kind and other CIA wannabes who are on the payroll of those they worship, is a moral obligation... >>>

as <<< Keeping his kind and other CIA wannabes who are on the payroll of those they worship, IN CHECK is a moral obligation... >>>

Re: # 752

rf786 - Thank you for reiterating your message. You are right on!

Another copy-paste from the old discussion

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tahmed writes << The number of those enslaved in the americas was significantly smaller than those in muslim nations, where slaves were taken from both west africa (via mauritania, where it existed until quite recently) >>>

This is a lie, the Atlantic Slave trade was by far the largest that occurred in human history, accounting for the largest migration of people to date. Considering the loss enroute of around 20% of those transported, this almost continent wide barbarism is unequalled in human history. I challenge you to give me one scholarly reference that states that Muslim trade in slaves, prior to the European one (i.e not linked with it) was greater than the Atlantic Slave Trade or the slave trade undertaken by European colonials. Not ONE such reference exists.

Your point is that Britian, after mastering trade in flesh in a most barbaric manner, suddenly ``discovered`` that slavery was immoral and that discovery of immorality did not extend to either factory workers or indentured servants, who were treated in an equally barbarous fashion. That is extremely prepostrous. The reason why Britain started opposing and enforsing it world wide on the high seas was because of economic reason and a transition to an industrialized market economy. What you are tyring to claim is the same as claiming that the transnational corporations are shifting manufacturing jobs to poor nations because of ``moral`` considerations, shifting the labor in its own countries to service based. It has economic reasons and not moral reasons behind it.

Here are a couple of references that document what I am saying,

1) The Atlantic Slave Trade (New Approaches to the Americas) by Herbert S. Klein and Stuart Schwartz,
2) Van Horne, Winston. Editor. Global Convulsions: Race, Ethnicity and Nationalism at the End of the Twentieth Century. 1997. State University of New York Press. New York.

And I have not come across a single scholarly ref that claims that Muslim trade in flesh was greater than the Atlantic Slave trade.