The General vs. the Judge

#434 by Naqshbandi,

Ok Sir .... If you took offense at that, I`ll substitute it with:

HARI KRISHNA HARI RAMA !!!

#431 by Salim_Chauhan,

I replied on Beena`s board as it pertains to her.

#432 by Salim_Chauhan,

In the case of the Hifsa Jamia girls, ... I ended up supporting their action.

I didn`t see you do that. Can you post the link where you did? Maybe I missed it.

In any event, it would help if you could enumerate exactly what the grievances of Mohajirs (as you prefer to term them) with the Pakistani State are?

Thanks.

zeemax -- please dont take the zikr of ALLh as a joke. it is far beyond the comprehension of your wahabi kind.

the love-crazed mendicant in patched clothes at a darbar with matted hair has FAR greater understanding of God and Islam than your kind ever will.

Faqih e maslahat se woh rind o baadakhaar accha
Nikal jaati ho jiskay moonH se sacchi baat masti mein

hamidm..i am just a normal run of the mill sinful sunni muslim of the barelvi bent...i dont support incest morally as wahabi-max seems to imply but i dont think in a secular country the state has the right to tell people who to sleep with.

the genetic problems which would result from such unions could be used to dissuade people but i dont think peresecuting them for what is a private matter is anyones business. as for whisky and alcohol again i wouldnt normally but it doesnt mean that if others want to i would stop them.

i think that the kind of totalitarian state which islamists envisage has more in common with east germany or the USSR than any islamic state that has actually existed in reality. this is evident in islamic lit where though alcohol is criticised from religious POV i have not read accounts of police breaking shops selling it or it being banned.

see i have come round to the point of view that islamist wahabis and their henchmen make a virtue out of necessity. if you dont drink because you are scared of 50 lashes that is not being virtuous; if you have alcohol available but choose not to drink due to respect of God´s commandment if you are a muslim that is real piety.

which is why i believe places like the EU are much more islamic than any islamist state could ever be.

#427 by zeemax {``Do you want Punjabis to support you in shipping to Pakistan hundreds of thousands of your potential cadres ripe for MQM indoctrination for making Jinnahpur? You must be joking``}

Zee Sahib,
Sometimes, in order to do the right thing, we have to go against traditional alliances, personal preferences, and our own viewpoints. In the case of the Hifsa Jamia girls, I focused very narrowly on their right to take citizens` actions against an illegal activity - AFTER they had approached law enforcement people for resolution. I did not let my secular viewpoint, disdain for right-wing fundo fantatics, or support for legalized prostitution affect my thinking. Despite political common sense, and much to the chagrin of Hamidum2 Sahib and others, I ended up supporting their action. That is what I mean about doing the right thing. Unfortunately, you are so caught up in the Punjabi vs Mohajir hatred that you cannot understand human suffering, the cruel injustice, and the damaging effects of this policy on Pakistan. May Allah open your eyes.

#430 by zeemax on May 30, 2007 10:38am PT

{``I think all doubts should be removed by now with Beena Sarwar`s article in agonizing detail.
I really feel you should retract your statements, and condemn MQM and Musharraf for what they did. Its really no use denying. This nation can still forgive even though scars will remain.``}

Zeemax Sahib,
Beena`s account is rather one-sided and very opinionated. I detest ALL murderers and violence, but there should be some degree of fairness, proportionality, and balance in reporting events. Please see my embellishments to her article in that forum.

My tolerance of Musharraf is based solely on survival for Urdu-speaking Mohajirs. To his credit, he put an end to the carnage carried on in Karachi/Hyderabad by the Punjabi Rangers as directed by Bezamir and Besharif. I prefer democracy, but not a return to state terrorism of the early 90s. There was never any need for MQM and none existed from 1947 through 1986. It was merely a reaction to the decades of oppression, suppression, and injustice inflicted upon Urdu-speaking people, who were notorious for being meek, peaceful, and afraid of violence.

#429 by Salim_Chauhan,

I think all doubts should be removed by now with Beena Sarwar`s article in agonizing detail.

I really feel you should retract your statements, and condemn MQM and Musharraf for what they did. Its really no use denying. This nation can still forgive even though scars will remain.

#426 Zeemax {``Salim Bhai,
Re the stranded `Pakistanis` issue, do you really believe any Pakistani will support you when your convictions are as follows?
With or Without Musharraf – A Mohajir’s Perspective : Salim Chauhan, April 11, 2007. ``}

Zee Sahib,
Don`t do the right thing merely to support me. I was born in 1980, but these poor, unfortunate Pakistani Muslims have been suffering in Bangladesh since 1971 - long before my viewpoints were formed, revised, or stated. In fact, I used to be an avid Paki nationalist. I have even posted here as ``Barachota,`` when I first joined Chowk in 2004. My compassion for these people is based on my sense of humanity and decency. It may have affected how I feel about Pakistan now - a country that despises me and my kind. :(

tahmed writes <<< Democracy is the only way to go for Pakistan. Military rule has brought it nothing but fascism in one form or another >>>

Tahmed talks the talk, just like the US elite, regarding democracy but when the time comes to walk the walk these hypocrites support all the military dictators as they know that the only way for them to pursue their perverse policies is through dictators. Tahmed says not a word about the US role in the shape the Pak Army assumed due its relationship with it, neither about how this military and its dictators have been blessed and supported and helped by the US elite as they fulfill their perverse motives in the region, Ayub, Zia and Musharraf have all been darlings of the US elite at one time or the other; US policy in Latin America and the Middle East region reveals similar ``walking the walk`` with dictators while talking the ``democracy`` talk. Hypocrites are like snakes, their posts are deceitful yet poisionous, wrapped up in beautiful words, yet designed to kill and maim....You don`t fool me tahmed. You are the worst among humanity, one that suppots colonization and the enslavement of humankind, supported the US barbaric war on Iraq, and was acting as an apologist for the Atlantic Slave Trade of his Anglo Saxon masters. Your kind need to be dragged through the streets of every country your masters have harmed, for were it not for AHs like you they could never have dominated us in the way that they did...

#426 by Salim_Chauhan,

Salim Bhai,

Re the stranded `Pakistanis` issue, do you really believe any Pakistani will support you when your convictions are as follows?

With or Without Musharraf – A Mohajir’s Perspective : Salim Chauhan, April 11, 2007.

Quote:``Whether we stay in Pakistan, go it alone, or confederate with like-minded freedom loving Sindhis or Baluchis, there are many steps we can take in the interim. ... We can look to Singapore as a model for our evolution.`` Unquote.

Do you want Punjabis to support you in shipping to Pakistan hundreds of thousands of your potential cadres ripe for MQM indoctrination for making Jinnahpur? You must be joking.

I think you owe Pakistanis an explanation.

#416 Tahmed32 {``SalimChauhan: My ``compassion`` or lack thereof on the ``stranded pakistani`` issue does not matter one bit in real life, since Pakistan government policies are not set based on what some chowk poster writes. And by the same token, my views send a ``strong message`` to no one, and in fact you are the only chowk poster who has been brought this up.

And to repeat myself, I think I am merely stating the obvious that mqm`s violence and making of ethnic issues in the 1980`s reduced sympathies for the ``stranded pakistanis`` among many people.

... If there has been no backlash against mohajirs in Lahore after the slaughter of May 12, it is not because of fear of mqm - rather it is because there is zero concern of mqm on the part of anyone other than those unfortunate enough to be living in karachi/hyderabad. ``}


Dear Mr. Tahmed32:

I appreciate your detailed response and your attempt to justify the continued ``stranding`` of Pakistanis in Bangladesh. Bismillah Bhai (rf786) has already provided an eloquent and fact-based response to each of your points. I am sure that his response is far more effective and convincing than anything that I could offer.

Please allow me to disagree with you again on the issue of ``stranded`` Pakistanis in Bangladesh - those whom you easily and nonchalantly dismiss as ``Biharis.`` Sir, you cannot use the violence of the 1980s to justify their inexplicable suffering and their continued ``stranding`` which started in 1971. From 1971 to 1986 there was no MQM, no so-called Urdu-speaking ghoondas, and no May 12 ``carnage.`` How dare you use today`s conditions to justify an illegal and shameless act of the Government of Pakistan from the early 70s? This attempt is as ridiculous as someone saying that the massacre of half a million Punjabi Muslims in East Punjab during 1947 was justified because these Punjabis would have added to the numbers of those Punjabis who committed atrocities in East Pakistan in 1971, Karachi in 1989 and the early 90`s, and now Baluchistan, NWFP, and AK.

You establish a viewpoint and then proclaim that the Government of Pakistan does not react to such opinions. Excuse me, but sir, you might represent the majority view of the Pisser-e-Zameen or Sons of the Soil. Of course, this same viewpoint of yours (multiplied by millions of Punjabis and Sindhis) results in extreme pressure on the GoP and, consequently hundreds of thousands of loyal and long-suffering Pakistani Muslims continue to suffer in Bangladesh. Obviously you have no compassion for the thousands of young women forced to prostitute themselves to feed their families. As a Muslim, you don`t even feel the anguish of poor Pakistanis forced to convert to Christianity to obtain much-needed aid from missionaries. You don`t even care about the impact this continued injustice has on the reputation of Pakistan, the value of Pakistani citizenship, and the demoralizing effect this has on the otherwise loyal and proud Urdu-speaking Pakistanis.

Mr. Tahmed, many Pakistani Punjabis have ridiculed me as a ``Bihari,`` and Chowkies such as Atif2, Ali1, Zeemax, Ally, and many others have heaped on racial, ethnic, and abusive insults (Muttarwas, Paan-chewing Biharis, HindustaaNRa, Panahguzeer, etc...). I can dismiss this nonsense as typical Paindoo rhetoric, but your viewpoint is much more insidious, much more pernicious, and far more sinister in its effects. Let me reassure you that I am NOT a Bihari, I have no Bihari relatives, and I don`t know anyone who is ``stranded`` in Bangladesh. But then, I didn`t know any of the earthquake victims or survivors, but my wife and I did our best to collect and dispatch supplies and food for those unfortunate Pakistanis. Compassion should never be tainted in racial, ethnic, or linguistic terms.

Once again, I appeal to your humanity, your faith, and your nationalism to do the right thing - apologize for your insensitivity. Do it for Pakistan, do it for Islam, and most importantly do it for the sake of simple compassion for fellow human beings. You cannot appeal to Urdu-speaking Mohajirs to join you in your call for ``democracy,`` while telling them that Pakistanis, like them, who happen to speak Urdu as a native language, are NOT welcome in Pakistan. Thank you.

PS – I have decided to ignore your veiled threat against Urdu-speaking residents of Lahore. Obviously, you did not mean it in those terms even though, coming from you, it sure sounded rather hostile and condescending.

#422 rf786 {``Ethnic fascism? What Pathan Anp and Baloch ethnic parties practice that is national politics? Clearly, your writings on Mqm betray some deep seated or conditioned hatred which makes it rascist because the same rancour is not seen for other ethnic people. As mentioned above, why do u not express the same sentiments for the Pathan nationalists killing Pak soldiers and their supporters in the tribal and frontier belt?
...Where do these brave Pakistanis vanish when state terrorism is practiced on the citizens of Karachi, Hyderabad, Balochistan? Where do these brave citizens find refuge when Naseer Lulla Baber is hailed as a national hero? How does this bravery evaporate when confronted by the Lal Masjid/Taliban terrorism?``}

Bismillah Bhai,
Thank you very much for providing such a thoughtful, polite, and fact-based response to Mr. Tahmed`s numerous complaints against Mohajirs, Urdu-speakers, MQM, and ghoondaism. I appreciate your taking the time to address each of his points and request a sense of balance and proportionality in his viewpoints. Thanks again.

#416 Tahmed

Brother Tahmed,

I think that in this post you have outdone yourselves. I must have read it a dozen times.
I and many many others find ourselves in complete agreement.


I wonder how the pseudo (read hypocrite) crowd would react !!!

Re: # 396

`` Punjabis were there standing with picks and shovels and telling them ``Aggey jao ... Pakistan aggey hai``. ``


LOL Yeah.....

With WALTON the biggest refuge camp, before Afghanistan crisis...

I must scratch My head.....and wonder....!!

Walton is in Lahore...or near Lahore.( Chungi Amar Sadhuu )....?? isn`t it.....??

I say..... these Paki Panjoos were taken for a LoNG.....ride.....!!

Re: # 416

Dear tahmed32,

If u will be kind enough to allow me the opportunity to respond, it will be greatly appreciated. Purpose is not to blow holes in your argument but to state the other point of view.

{And the proof of this is in the fact that there has not been any mqm-like panjabi ethnic party even as a minority party}

Punjab is the majority by default thus has no need to remind others of its status. Pakistan has had its share of ethnic parties since inception which is not mentioned by yourself or the general interactors painting Mqm as the Only ethnic party. ANP is and has always been a Pathan nationalist/ethnic party, PPP used to play their Sindh card back in the eighties-nineties, NS PML used the Jaag Punjaabi Jaag mantra against PPP (Sindhi) back in 1988 and Balochistan political scene has always been dominated by nationalist/ethnic parties.

{On the other hand, and as I noted earlier, panjabis (or pathans or baluch) are not exactly shaking with fear of mqm either.... If there has been no backlash against mohajirs in Lahore after the slaughter of May 12...}

Why this jingoistic rhetoric? Does the Ghandasa need to be raised everytime a minority challenges the majority? What kind of backlash in Lahore are u talking about? Is this a threat to those settled urdu speaking Lahoris? Some clarification will help. By the way, when Pak soldiers are being killed by Wana militants, whu dont u express the same sentiments for your/our pathan brethren?

{ethnic fascism of mqm (which was created by zia to counter the popularity of PPP I believe).}

Ethnic fascism? What Pathan Anp and Baloch ethnic parties practice that is national politics? Clearly, your writings on Mqm betray some deep seated or conditioned hatred which makes it rascist because the same rancour is not seen for other ethnic people. As mentioned above, why do u not express the same sentiments for the Pathan nationalists killing Pak soldiers and their supporters in the tribal and frontier belt?

And please, Zia did not create Mqm to counter the popularity of PPP simply because PPP never had a popular base in Karachi or Hyderabad, if there was any political party to lose because of Mqm it was primarily JI followed by JUP, both parties were supporters of Zia.

{Brave Pakistanis inside Pakistan are speaking out for democracy.}

Where do these brave Pakistanis vanish when state terrorism is practiced on the citizens of Karachi, Hyderabad, Balochistan? Where do these brave citizens find refuge when Naseer Lulla Baber is hailed as a national hero? How does this bravery evaporate when confronted by the Lal Masjid/Taliban terrorism?

{since these are merely my personal views as someone who wishes nothing more than to see all Pakistanis (regardless of ethnicity) prosper in a democratic nation that is at peace with itself, with its neighbors and with the rest of the world}

Nice words, wud sound better if some fairness, objectivity is expressed in real terms. Classic example would be this recent episode involving Mqm and CJ visit to Karachi. I do not support what Mqm did nor do I condone their actions BUT for the love of god cannot understand the reaction of Punjab and Frontier. For 12years, Karachi/Hyderabad were burning with state sponsored terrorism and never, never did anyone from Frontier or Punjab stage such a vehement opposition being expressed post May 12. For the last atleast two years, Taliban or Pathan rebellion is raging on the western border, but not once has any political leader (Imran Khan et al) expressed the same anguish as being displayed against Mqm. More than six hundred pak soldiers have been killed on the western border, yet that does not draw even whisper of condemnation by JI, JUI, ANP, PTI etc tec. Is this not classic racial bigotry?

Let me conclude by saying, Pakistan is a state that comprises of 160MM citizens of diverse religious and ethnic backgrounds the earlier we start respecting each other the better.

Re: # 247

Amen Brother...Tu cha gaya...

Read the interacts of my articles...Militant Liberalism and you`ll see the reality...

Regards
Ahmad Hayat