The General vs. the Judge
Tariq Ali May 25, 2007
#468 Posted by RAJAHINDUSTANI on June 22, 2007 9:56:33 am
kya mast desh hai... sab loot rahe hai. Ghar ke bhedi , lanka dhai.
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#467 Posted by hassauriwala on June 4, 2007 10:57:26 am
Re: # 466
I am not done with you zeemax. I am not in that photo because as you say I am a mutarwa. That fair-skinned guy is you or your dad or someone in your family posing with of course his sister which kind of explains your state of mental retardation.
I am not done with you zeemax. I am not in that photo because as you say I am a mutarwa. That fair-skinned guy is you or your dad or someone in your family posing with of course his sister which kind of explains your state of mental retardation.
#466 Posted by zeemax on June 3, 2007 3:30:27 am
#464 by hassauriwala,
Didn`t you recognise your sister in that photo? I guess not because you are a muttarwa kaala dhobi while the girl is white. So must be by the pathan milkman when your father was away on altaphi duty ...
Didn`t you recognise your sister in that photo? I guess not because you are a muttarwa kaala dhobi while the girl is white. So must be by the pathan milkman when your father was away on altaphi duty ...
#465 Posted by zeemax on June 3, 2007 3:27:53 am
#463 by hassauriwala,
Abey jaahil .... Jinnah had no grandchildren other than Dina`s kids. He married Emibai when she was 16 against his wish at his mom`s insistence and left for London immediately afterwards, and six months later Emibai died. He had NO kids from Emibai. Whatever grandson claimants are, these are the neighbours. Only way it can be true is Emibai had her way with neighbours when Jinnah was away and produced some kid in six months instead of nine.
AH, neither your altaphi muttarwa Salim nor you can demolish the facts.
Abey jaahil .... Jinnah had no grandchildren other than Dina`s kids. He married Emibai when she was 16 against his wish at his mom`s insistence and left for London immediately afterwards, and six months later Emibai died. He had NO kids from Emibai. Whatever grandson claimants are, these are the neighbours. Only way it can be true is Emibai had her way with neighbours when Jinnah was away and produced some kid in six months instead of nine.
AH, neither your altaphi muttarwa Salim nor you can demolish the facts.
#464 Posted by hassauriwala on June 3, 2007 1:44:43 am
Re: # 462
Yes and that still does not justify why you posted a pic of yourself and your sister in #353. Are you obsessed with incest or what?
Yes and that still does not justify why you posted a pic of yourself and your sister in #353. Are you obsessed with incest or what?
#463 Posted by hassauriwala on June 3, 2007 1:43:11 am
>>Read it again with different punctuation hathoriwala ... :)
``I don`t believe the claim of any Jinnah`s grandsons - many people of Kharadar claim that ... even neighbors. So, forget it.
That still does not make any sense retard, even with the added punctuation.
You still have not refuted my statement that Sikandar Ali who was killed in a police-encounter in 1994 in Kharadar was not Mr Jinnah`s grandson.
It may not affect your primitive and corrupt tribal mentality but you may as well know that he was an innocent man with no criminal or political involvement since as a third-class feudal you are so obsessed with disproving (or proving) family connections.
I am waiting for you to be banned after which I will take your statements apart piece by piece with my brother Saleem.
#462 Posted by zeemax on June 2, 2007 12:36:57 am
...contd...#461
Oops ... sorry ... I thought you were talking about the monkey suckling pic.
That other pic was meant for naqshbandi in support of my argument that morality springs from religion and not society. Since you don`t have any inkling about that debate, better shut up.
Oops ... sorry ... I thought you were talking about the monkey suckling pic.
That other pic was meant for naqshbandi in support of my argument that morality springs from religion and not society. Since you don`t have any inkling about that debate, better shut up.
#461 Posted by zeemax on June 1, 2007 11:39:01 pm
#458 by hassauriwala,
Why have you posted your family photo in post number 353 ..
Didn`t you know hindoos are monkeys? Oh ... well. This is in fact Arjun`s baby pic ... ! But apparently rf786 is a hindoo as well so I thought he`ll be happy to see his next of kin :~)
Why have you posted your family photo in post number 353 ..
Didn`t you know hindoos are monkeys? Oh ... well. This is in fact Arjun`s baby pic ... ! But apparently rf786 is a hindoo as well so I thought he`ll be happy to see his next of kin :~)
#460 Posted by zeemax on June 1, 2007 11:36:15 pm
#457 by hassauriwala,
Abey Mr. hathorhi waley, you say:
You tell me first what your idiot sentence meant ``I don`t believe the claim of any Jinnah`s grandsons. Many people of Kharadar claim that. Even neighbors, so forget it.``
Read it again with different punctuation hathoriwala ... :)
``I don`t believe the claim of any Jinnah`s grandsons - many people of Kharadar claim that ... even neighbors. So, forget it.``
.... I will then explain to you what I meant.
Go ahead. Now tell me keh yeh grandsons jinnah ki konsi beewi ki aulad sey nikley? Agar emibai kaha tau ek chapat tikaoon gaa .. :)
Regards :~)
Abey Mr. hathorhi waley, you say:
You tell me first what your idiot sentence meant ``I don`t believe the claim of any Jinnah`s grandsons. Many people of Kharadar claim that. Even neighbors, so forget it.``
Read it again with different punctuation hathoriwala ... :)
``I don`t believe the claim of any Jinnah`s grandsons - many people of Kharadar claim that ... even neighbors. So, forget it.``
.... I will then explain to you what I meant.
Go ahead. Now tell me keh yeh grandsons jinnah ki konsi beewi ki aulad sey nikley? Agar emibai kaha tau ek chapat tikaoon gaa .. :)
Regards :~)
#459 Posted by teshah on June 1, 2007 4:54:00 pm
Re: # 454
O my God! I never suspected mad dogs on chowk. Moderator may kindly see if he can check them.
O my God! I never suspected mad dogs on chowk. Moderator may kindly see if he can check them.
#458 Posted by hassauriwala on June 1, 2007 1:16:28 pm
...and by the way zeemax. Why have you posted your family photo in post number 353 in the middle of a serious discussion on politics ?
You give people like arjun the opportunity to blame all Pakistanis .
You give people like arjun the opportunity to blame all Pakistanis .
#457 Posted by hassauriwala on June 1, 2007 12:58:15 pm
Well at least you know what I am talking about zeemax.
You tell me first what your idiot sentence meant
``I don`t believe the claim of any Jinnah`s grandsons. Many people of Kharadar claim that. Even neighbors, so forget it.``
I will then explain to you what I meant
You tell me first what your idiot sentence meant
``I don`t believe the claim of any Jinnah`s grandsons. Many people of Kharadar claim that. Even neighbors, so forget it.``
I will then explain to you what I meant
#456 Posted by zeemax on June 1, 2007 4:49:59 am
#450 by hassauriwala,
Abey ... yeh jinnah ki konsi beewi ki aulad sey grandson nikley? Agar emibai kaha tau ek chapat tikaoon gaa .. :)
Abey ... yeh jinnah ki konsi beewi ki aulad sey grandson nikley? Agar emibai kaha tau ek chapat tikaoon gaa .. :)
#454 Posted by abu_safwaan on May 31, 2007 9:56:47 pm
Re: # 453
Abbay Qadiyani Mutaasib Budhay, kuch apnayy safayd ballon ka pass hii kiya karr joo tonayy yaqeenan dhoop hii mein safayd kiyayy hein yeah phirr charhtayy soraj koo poojnayy mein. Apnayy Mirza qadiyanii kayy hazyaan koo sabitt karnayy meiin waqt sarff kiya karr, tayrayy jaysayy dhayriyayy ka iss mamlayy sayy koii taaluuq nahii hayy , yeahh hamarayy aapas kayy mamlaat hein ham tayy karlein gayy too jakarr aapna qibla durastt karr pehlayy, qabarr mein paoonn latka kayy baytha hayy jahanum-rasseed magarr nafratt phaylanayy sayy nahii chooknaa, no wonder ur kids left u at the edhi home, aysayy pagall budhay koo kaun jhayll sakta hayy.
Abbay Qadiyani Mutaasib Budhay, kuch apnayy safayd ballon ka pass hii kiya karr joo tonayy yaqeenan dhoop hii mein safayd kiyayy hein yeah phirr charhtayy soraj koo poojnayy mein. Apnayy Mirza qadiyanii kayy hazyaan koo sabitt karnayy meiin waqt sarff kiya karr, tayrayy jaysayy dhayriyayy ka iss mamlayy sayy koii taaluuq nahii hayy , yeahh hamarayy aapas kayy mamlaat hein ham tayy karlein gayy too jakarr aapna qibla durastt karr pehlayy, qabarr mein paoonn latka kayy baytha hayy jahanum-rasseed magarr nafratt phaylanayy sayy nahii chooknaa, no wonder ur kids left u at the edhi home, aysayy pagall budhay koo kaun jhayll sakta hayy.
#453 Posted by teshah on May 31, 2007 7:13:13 pm
Re: # 445
salim
What a pity; you could think only of a real Panju general `Ghazi Jagjit Singh Arora ` who trounced a `Potohari` general Tiger Niazi. In ethnic terms this was actually a `Punju` vs `Punju`. Why should a Matarwa gloat over it I am at a loss to understand.
As regards Biharies I have a great respect for them as they are not so conceited and selfish as UP Matarwas. It was a Bihari Colonel, whom I had the honour to meet immediately after Dhaka fall who had felt ashamed at the uniform he was wearing.
salim
What a pity; you could think only of a real Panju general `Ghazi Jagjit Singh Arora ` who trounced a `Potohari` general Tiger Niazi. In ethnic terms this was actually a `Punju` vs `Punju`. Why should a Matarwa gloat over it I am at a loss to understand.
As regards Biharies I have a great respect for them as they are not so conceited and selfish as UP Matarwas. It was a Bihari Colonel, whom I had the honour to meet immediately after Dhaka fall who had felt ashamed at the uniform he was wearing.
#452 Posted by echoboom on May 31, 2007 3:00:59 pm
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#451 Posted by echoboom on May 31, 2007 2:55:24 pm
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#450 Posted by hassauriwala on May 31, 2007 2:47:58 pm
``I don`t believe the claim of any Jinnah`s grandsons. Many people of Kharadar claim that. Even neighbors, so forget it.``
Hello people. Can someone please help?
I have quoted above from Mr Zeemax who ( I am not really sure but ) was trying to deny that two of Mr Jinnah`s grandsons had been killed in a police-encounter in 1994.
Since he knew he was lying , Mr Zeemax wrote two broken sentences which do not make much sense.
The news is archived on the daily Dawn or Karachipage.com or somewhere . Can someone please pick it up from there and prove Zeemax to be the liar he is?
Hello people. Can someone please help?
I have quoted above from Mr Zeemax who ( I am not really sure but ) was trying to deny that two of Mr Jinnah`s grandsons had been killed in a police-encounter in 1994.
Since he knew he was lying , Mr Zeemax wrote two broken sentences which do not make much sense.
The news is archived on the daily Dawn or Karachipage.com or somewhere . Can someone please pick it up from there and prove Zeemax to be the liar he is?
#449 Posted by tahmed32 on May 31, 2007 11:45:28 am
salimchauhan: on the other issue of your dealings with atif, ali etc. on unplugged, you make a fair point in saying they refer to you in the same manner. as long as you restrict your jibes against ``panjoos`` to those who write about ``matarwas`` (and worse), then that is your business. However, please leave those of us who are not here to exchange mudslings out of it. If you think I am some kind of a smooth talking sinister panjoo, then that is fine too and if I have time, as you know, I can do a pretty good job of getting back to you. As they say, treat others as you would have them treat you.
What I meant was not the alis and atifs or stukas. They can get back to you and more. The ones I hope you will lay off from are people like this female poster on unplugged who is a perfectly decent poster whom you routinely try to ridicule on account of her being panjabi. Behave like a rat, and you get called one as well.
I am sorry if the above sounds unfriendly, but contrary to what you think, I dont do ``veiled`` meanings, nor do I have any reason to be hypocritical on anything since I am not running for chowk mayor.
I wish you and all others on chowk all the best, and sincerely mean everything I wrote below, but that does not mean that you have the right to take advantage of posters who due to age or gender or merely self-respect are not willing to get back to you in the same language that you use for them.
What I meant was not the alis and atifs or stukas. They can get back to you and more. The ones I hope you will lay off from are people like this female poster on unplugged who is a perfectly decent poster whom you routinely try to ridicule on account of her being panjabi. Behave like a rat, and you get called one as well.
I am sorry if the above sounds unfriendly, but contrary to what you think, I dont do ``veiled`` meanings, nor do I have any reason to be hypocritical on anything since I am not running for chowk mayor.
I wish you and all others on chowk all the best, and sincerely mean everything I wrote below, but that does not mean that you have the right to take advantage of posters who due to age or gender or merely self-respect are not willing to get back to you in the same language that you use for them.
#448 Posted by tahmed32 on May 31, 2007 11:33:54 am
rf: thanks for providing your views. The various points I had raised were basically presented as evidence that panjabis are not a racist people, and that they bear no ill-will towards muhajirs. So please dont misconstrue that to be a ``veiled threats`` against mohajirs. It is not possible to have a discussion if things you write are going to be taken out of context and twisted to mean the opposite of what was intended!! I hope you will reflect on the points I made in the spirit of solidarity and goodwill among all Pakistanis (regardless of ethnicity) they were meant.
#447 Posted by tahmed32 on May 31, 2007 11:27:05 am
Okla: thanks for the appreciative note on my previous post. Let us pray for a peaceful restoration of the basic rights and freedoms of Pakistanis, and may good sense prevail without further bloodshed.
#446 Posted by tahmed32 on May 31, 2007 11:25:40 am
salimchauhan #426 you write ``From 1971 to 1986 there was no MQM, no so-called Urdu-speaking ghoondas, and no May 12 ``carnage.``
That is a valid point. It reinforces, and does not contradict, the fact that mqm`s actions have reduced sympathies for the ``stranded Pakistanis`` (to the extent there still remain any, 36 years after 1971 - and I would appreciate if anyone has knowledge on big the issue is today).
There is no question that post 1971 the government should have implemented a well-formulated policy of repatriation for those with could legitimately be termed ``stranded Pakistanis`` and that was not done. One could debate what would constitute a ``well-formulated`` policy, but the fact is that any rational policy would have ben better than ignoring the issue. To my understanding, there has been a significant flow of immigrants from Bangladesh to Pakistan after 1971, and (I was told this in Dhaka which I used to visit in the late 90`s) there are at least a couple of hundred thousand bengali speakers who moved to karachi after 1971. So I assume a large number of ``stranded Pakistanis`` too must have found their way into karachi as well despite any explicit government program. But if you or anyone else has better knowledge on this, I would be glad to be educated.
To keep things in perspective - there were bigger injustices (involving loss of life) committed by the military and para-militaries in 1971 and no one was brought to justice. Today, we are paying the price for the lawless behavior that indivduals who disgraced the Pakistani army uniform with their actions got away with in 1971. And to keep things in perspective, the ``evacuated Pakistanis`` (i.e. the sikhs and hindus who were forced to flee for their lives in 1947) suffered injustices at a much larger scale (these are the hindus/sikhs who were forced to leave their homes and properties as they fled for their lives) too. And today, there are much bigger injustices taking place where Pakistanis are being denied there basic rights and a military dictator is bent upon clinging to power regardless of the peril of further bloodshed it presents.
So, keeping the above perspective in mind, and in response to your question, my sympathies are of course with any person who has lost life or property or been otherwise harmed due to circumstances beyond his/her control - whether in 1947, or 1971 or 2007, and that includes any ``stranded Pakistani`` who falls in this category. Perhaps you could write a chowk article describing the current situation of the ``stranded Pakistanis`` to help educate individuals like myself on why this is a high priority and relevant issue today.
That is a valid point. It reinforces, and does not contradict, the fact that mqm`s actions have reduced sympathies for the ``stranded Pakistanis`` (to the extent there still remain any, 36 years after 1971 - and I would appreciate if anyone has knowledge on big the issue is today).
There is no question that post 1971 the government should have implemented a well-formulated policy of repatriation for those with could legitimately be termed ``stranded Pakistanis`` and that was not done. One could debate what would constitute a ``well-formulated`` policy, but the fact is that any rational policy would have ben better than ignoring the issue. To my understanding, there has been a significant flow of immigrants from Bangladesh to Pakistan after 1971, and (I was told this in Dhaka which I used to visit in the late 90`s) there are at least a couple of hundred thousand bengali speakers who moved to karachi after 1971. So I assume a large number of ``stranded Pakistanis`` too must have found their way into karachi as well despite any explicit government program. But if you or anyone else has better knowledge on this, I would be glad to be educated.
To keep things in perspective - there were bigger injustices (involving loss of life) committed by the military and para-militaries in 1971 and no one was brought to justice. Today, we are paying the price for the lawless behavior that indivduals who disgraced the Pakistani army uniform with their actions got away with in 1971. And to keep things in perspective, the ``evacuated Pakistanis`` (i.e. the sikhs and hindus who were forced to flee for their lives in 1947) suffered injustices at a much larger scale (these are the hindus/sikhs who were forced to leave their homes and properties as they fled for their lives) too. And today, there are much bigger injustices taking place where Pakistanis are being denied there basic rights and a military dictator is bent upon clinging to power regardless of the peril of further bloodshed it presents.
So, keeping the above perspective in mind, and in response to your question, my sympathies are of course with any person who has lost life or property or been otherwise harmed due to circumstances beyond his/her control - whether in 1947, or 1971 or 2007, and that includes any ``stranded Pakistani`` who falls in this category. Perhaps you could write a chowk article describing the current situation of the ``stranded Pakistanis`` to help educate individuals like myself on why this is a high priority and relevant issue today.
#445 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on May 31, 2007 10:10:37 am
HijRali1 - Go ahead and send that Gen. Bawaseer Lulla BuRbuR to Karachi.
And while you are at it, you may as well dig up the rotting corpse of Marhoom Gen. ``Ghazis if we win, Shaheed if we die`` Tiger Niazi Potohari and send his mutilated ass to Karachi also.
MQM has hired Gen(Retired) Ghazi Jagjit Singh Arora ``Daccawalla`` as a military consultant.
And while you are at it, you may as well dig up the rotting corpse of Marhoom Gen. ``Ghazis if we win, Shaheed if we die`` Tiger Niazi Potohari and send his mutilated ass to Karachi also.
MQM has hired Gen(Retired) Ghazi Jagjit Singh Arora ``Daccawalla`` as a military consultant.
#444 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on May 31, 2007 9:40:49 am
#442 abu safwan {``Dua do rajpootoon or sikhoon koo joo tumharii sabzi qoorr naheef ajsam ki hifazat parr mamoor hein werna abb tak musalmanonn kayy paad kii badboo sayy seham karr marchukkayy hottayy, jahil-e-mutlaq salay.``}
Safwan Sahib,
On behalf of Rajputs, I want to emphasize that we do not waste our time, our sweat, and certainly NOT our blood on such cockroaches as SATANI. I will let the noble Sardarjis offer their own rejection of this bastard.
Safwan Sahib,
On behalf of Rajputs, I want to emphasize that we do not waste our time, our sweat, and certainly NOT our blood on such cockroaches as SATANI. I will let the noble Sardarjis offer their own rejection of this bastard.
#443 Posted by echoboom on May 31, 2007 8:35:57 am
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#442 Posted by abu_safwaan on May 30, 2007 1:08:01 pm
Re: # 438
Abbay hindooo badboodaar kamzoor laghar subziyoon ki paydawar, jaa apnii maan koo jala jakayy, banyayy. Abbay baysharmoon itnii aksaryatt kayy bawajood ayk dawood ibraheem ka naam sunkar tumhayy dustt lag jatayy hein? Orr baat kartayy hoo godhra ki? Mooli kii nasal wohh too goorayy aakarr azadd kara gayeyy werna tumharay nunnay munayy kanchayy kahan bardasht karsaktayy thay gaoo mata khanayy wallon ka qehar? Kuch sharamm kiya karoo monnhh kholnayy sayy pehlayy moot say zyada badboodar. Kabhii aaj takk muslamanoo sayy panga layna kii auqatt hoi hayy itnii aksaryatt kayy bawajood manhoos-un-nasal khatri? Itnayy jootayy maray gaa aakarr chootta shakeel kay apnii amman kii kaalii chatiyoon meinn soo joo keecharr choosa tha sabbb ugal dogay. Abayy baygheyrat siwayeyy apnii ammaoon koo nachanayy kay orr motel chalanayy kay allawa koii mardana kaam kiya hayy aaj takk? Dua do rajpootoon or sikhoon koo joo tumharii sabzi qoorr naheef ajsam ki hifazat parr mamoor hein werna abb tak musalmanonn kayy paad kii badboo sayy seham karr marchukkayy hottayy, jahil-e-mutlaq salay.
Abbay hindooo badboodaar kamzoor laghar subziyoon ki paydawar, jaa apnii maan koo jala jakayy, banyayy. Abbay baysharmoon itnii aksaryatt kayy bawajood ayk dawood ibraheem ka naam sunkar tumhayy dustt lag jatayy hein? Orr baat kartayy hoo godhra ki? Mooli kii nasal wohh too goorayy aakarr azadd kara gayeyy werna tumharay nunnay munayy kanchayy kahan bardasht karsaktayy thay gaoo mata khanayy wallon ka qehar? Kuch sharamm kiya karoo monnhh kholnayy sayy pehlayy moot say zyada badboodar. Kabhii aaj takk muslamanoo sayy panga layna kii auqatt hoi hayy itnii aksaryatt kayy bawajood manhoos-un-nasal khatri? Itnayy jootayy maray gaa aakarr chootta shakeel kay apnii amman kii kaalii chatiyoon meinn soo joo keecharr choosa tha sabbb ugal dogay. Abayy baygheyrat siwayeyy apnii ammaoon koo nachanayy kay orr motel chalanayy kay allawa koii mardana kaam kiya hayy aaj takk? Dua do rajpootoon or sikhoon koo joo tumharii sabzi qoorr naheef ajsam ki hifazat parr mamoor hein werna abb tak musalmanonn kayy paad kii badboo sayy seham karr marchukkayy hottayy, jahil-e-mutlaq salay.
#441 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on May 30, 2007 12:12:43 pm
Zee Sahib #435 {``#435 by zeemax on May 30, 2007 11:07am PT
#432 by Salim_Chauhan,
In the case of the Hifsa Jamia girls, ... I ended up supporting their action.
I didn`t see you do that. Can you post the link where you did? Maybe I missed it.
In any event, it would help if you could enumerate exactly what the grievances of Mohajirs (as you prefer to term them) with the Pakistani State are? ``}
Zee Sahib,
In the case of the Hifsa Jamia girls, I did support the same side as you and Zeena. One of the shortcomings of intense hatred is short-term memory loss. :)
Once again, I would love to make such a list for you, but why do so many of you Punjus like to dish out menial gopher tasks? Do you own research and get educated. If you don`t already know, you will certainly not educate yourself from my list. Bhains ke aagey ...
#432 by Salim_Chauhan,
In the case of the Hifsa Jamia girls, ... I ended up supporting their action.
I didn`t see you do that. Can you post the link where you did? Maybe I missed it.
In any event, it would help if you could enumerate exactly what the grievances of Mohajirs (as you prefer to term them) with the Pakistani State are? ``}
Zee Sahib,
In the case of the Hifsa Jamia girls, I did support the same side as you and Zeena. One of the shortcomings of intense hatred is short-term memory loss. :)
Once again, I would love to make such a list for you, but why do so many of you Punjus like to dish out menial gopher tasks? Do you own research and get educated. If you don`t already know, you will certainly not educate yourself from my list. Bhains ke aagey ...
#440 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on May 30, 2007 12:09:43 pm
Satani #438
I agree with rf786 that you are one sick hatemonger. I also think that his departing comment is exactly what you merit.
I agree with rf786 that you are one sick hatemonger. I also think that his departing comment is exactly what you merit.
#439 Posted by rf786 on May 30, 2007 11:58:12 am
Re: # 438
One sick MOFO!! Pee-Max and u deserve each other, High Octane Hate (HOH). Go FCK yourself, cause thats the only language your type understand.
One sick MOFO!! Pee-Max and u deserve each other, High Octane Hate (HOH). Go FCK yourself, cause thats the only language your type understand.
#438 Posted by Sanatani on May 30, 2007 11:16:41 am
Re: # 429
Salim Chauhan for the 1st time you have spoken as a sane person instead of yapping in the way your scum cousins talk here (i.e. in the Matrabhumi Bharat Maa).
Let us accept what you have said is true and in toality that the state hates you and your kind. Fine so you owe no fealty to the state that is also fine but pray please answer aquarius`s questions he raised about the Muhajirs via the links in your previous article.
Forget everything yes let us accpet fine what you have said about the Punjoos should be treated with the same truth as the Vedas and the Gita but what about your types treatment of the Sindhis the Hindus from 1947 to 1952 and of the Muslims 52 onwards.
Your scum cousins want reservation in India (they wanted it in every state in the undivided Matrabhumi pre independence) and in Pakistan you talk of merit?
Na farmaani ki koi had he kya aur dogula pan ki?
Answer this where can you stay in Peace in Aligarh no in Mau no in Amroha no in Budayun no in Lucknow no (here you fight as Shia Sunni) in Bihar Sharif no in Karachi no in Hyderabad no abe hurrami kahin to aman se reh sakte ho ki nahin.
Ab bol ek paindoo descendant of ex West Punjabi bak raha he, dekho paindoo apna paindoo pana nahin chorte sarhad par kar ke.
Tum aur tumhari jaat wale sach na dekh sakte ho na bol sakte ho? Kanjarpana tumhari ragoon mein hai aur tum kanjar he rahoge.
Heres a toast to your wet dream of Jinnahpur wahan Pisser a Zameen tumhe kootenge aur yahan tumhari baki babar ke aulad ko hum?
Send scum Urdu muslims to kabristan.
Zee bhaiya kyon aap logon ne churiyan pehni hai kya.
And brothers believe me the post Godhra Carnage was not wrong this is the language these people understand.
Regards
Sanatani
Salim Chauhan for the 1st time you have spoken as a sane person instead of yapping in the way your scum cousins talk here (i.e. in the Matrabhumi Bharat Maa).
Let us accept what you have said is true and in toality that the state hates you and your kind. Fine so you owe no fealty to the state that is also fine but pray please answer aquarius`s questions he raised about the Muhajirs via the links in your previous article.
Forget everything yes let us accpet fine what you have said about the Punjoos should be treated with the same truth as the Vedas and the Gita but what about your types treatment of the Sindhis the Hindus from 1947 to 1952 and of the Muslims 52 onwards.
Your scum cousins want reservation in India (they wanted it in every state in the undivided Matrabhumi pre independence) and in Pakistan you talk of merit?
Na farmaani ki koi had he kya aur dogula pan ki?
Answer this where can you stay in Peace in Aligarh no in Mau no in Amroha no in Budayun no in Lucknow no (here you fight as Shia Sunni) in Bihar Sharif no in Karachi no in Hyderabad no abe hurrami kahin to aman se reh sakte ho ki nahin.
Ab bol ek paindoo descendant of ex West Punjabi bak raha he, dekho paindoo apna paindoo pana nahin chorte sarhad par kar ke.
Tum aur tumhari jaat wale sach na dekh sakte ho na bol sakte ho? Kanjarpana tumhari ragoon mein hai aur tum kanjar he rahoge.
Heres a toast to your wet dream of Jinnahpur wahan Pisser a Zameen tumhe kootenge aur yahan tumhari baki babar ke aulad ko hum?
Send scum Urdu muslims to kabristan.
Zee bhaiya kyon aap logon ne churiyan pehni hai kya.
And brothers believe me the post Godhra Carnage was not wrong this is the language these people understand.
Regards
Sanatani
#436 Posted by zeemax on May 30, 2007 11:11:11 am
#434 by Naqshbandi,
Ok Sir .... If you took offense at that, I`ll substitute it with:
Ok Sir .... If you took offense at that, I`ll substitute it with:
HARI KRISHNA HARI RAMA !!!
#435 Posted by zeemax on May 30, 2007 11:07:48 am
#431 by Salim_Chauhan,
I replied on Beena`s board as it pertains to her.
#432 by Salim_Chauhan,
In the case of the Hifsa Jamia girls, ... I ended up supporting their action.
I didn`t see you do that. Can you post the link where you did? Maybe I missed it.
In any event, it would help if you could enumerate exactly what the grievances of Mohajirs (as you prefer to term them) with the Pakistani State are?
Thanks.
I replied on Beena`s board as it pertains to her.
#432 by Salim_Chauhan,
In the case of the Hifsa Jamia girls, ... I ended up supporting their action.
I didn`t see you do that. Can you post the link where you did? Maybe I missed it.
In any event, it would help if you could enumerate exactly what the grievances of Mohajirs (as you prefer to term them) with the Pakistani State are?
Thanks.
#434 Posted by Naqshbandi on May 30, 2007 11:03:40 am
zeemax -- please dont take the zikr of ALLh as a joke. it is far beyond the comprehension of your wahabi kind.
the love-crazed mendicant in patched clothes at a darbar with matted hair has FAR greater understanding of God and Islam than your kind ever will.
Faqih e maslahat se woh rind o baadakhaar accha
Nikal jaati ho jiskay moonH se sacchi baat masti mein
the love-crazed mendicant in patched clothes at a darbar with matted hair has FAR greater understanding of God and Islam than your kind ever will.
Faqih e maslahat se woh rind o baadakhaar accha
Nikal jaati ho jiskay moonH se sacchi baat masti mein
#433 Posted by Naqshbandi on May 30, 2007 11:00:26 am
hamidm..i am just a normal run of the mill sinful sunni muslim of the barelvi bent...i dont support incest morally as wahabi-max seems to imply but i dont think in a secular country the state has the right to tell people who to sleep with.
the genetic problems which would result from such unions could be used to dissuade people but i dont think peresecuting them for what is a private matter is anyones business. as for whisky and alcohol again i wouldnt normally but it doesnt mean that if others want to i would stop them.
i think that the kind of totalitarian state which islamists envisage has more in common with east germany or the USSR than any islamic state that has actually existed in reality. this is evident in islamic lit where though alcohol is criticised from religious POV i have not read accounts of police breaking shops selling it or it being banned.
see i have come round to the point of view that islamist wahabis and their henchmen make a virtue out of necessity. if you dont drink because you are scared of 50 lashes that is not being virtuous; if you have alcohol available but choose not to drink due to respect of God´s commandment if you are a muslim that is real piety.
which is why i believe places like the EU are much more islamic than any islamist state could ever be.
the genetic problems which would result from such unions could be used to dissuade people but i dont think peresecuting them for what is a private matter is anyones business. as for whisky and alcohol again i wouldnt normally but it doesnt mean that if others want to i would stop them.
i think that the kind of totalitarian state which islamists envisage has more in common with east germany or the USSR than any islamic state that has actually existed in reality. this is evident in islamic lit where though alcohol is criticised from religious POV i have not read accounts of police breaking shops selling it or it being banned.
see i have come round to the point of view that islamist wahabis and their henchmen make a virtue out of necessity. if you dont drink because you are scared of 50 lashes that is not being virtuous; if you have alcohol available but choose not to drink due to respect of God´s commandment if you are a muslim that is real piety.
which is why i believe places like the EU are much more islamic than any islamist state could ever be.
#432 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on May 30, 2007 10:47:53 am
#427 by zeemax {``Do you want Punjabis to support you in shipping to Pakistan hundreds of thousands of your potential cadres ripe for MQM indoctrination for making Jinnahpur? You must be joking``}
Zee Sahib,
Sometimes, in order to do the right thing, we have to go against traditional alliances, personal preferences, and our own viewpoints. In the case of the Hifsa Jamia girls, I focused very narrowly on their right to take citizens` actions against an illegal activity - AFTER they had approached law enforcement people for resolution. I did not let my secular viewpoint, disdain for right-wing fundo fantatics, or support for legalized prostitution affect my thinking. Despite political common sense, and much to the chagrin of Hamidum2 Sahib and others, I ended up supporting their action. That is what I mean about doing the right thing. Unfortunately, you are so caught up in the Punjabi vs Mohajir hatred that you cannot understand human suffering, the cruel injustice, and the damaging effects of this policy on Pakistan. May Allah open your eyes.
Zee Sahib,
Sometimes, in order to do the right thing, we have to go against traditional alliances, personal preferences, and our own viewpoints. In the case of the Hifsa Jamia girls, I focused very narrowly on their right to take citizens` actions against an illegal activity - AFTER they had approached law enforcement people for resolution. I did not let my secular viewpoint, disdain for right-wing fundo fantatics, or support for legalized prostitution affect my thinking. Despite political common sense, and much to the chagrin of Hamidum2 Sahib and others, I ended up supporting their action. That is what I mean about doing the right thing. Unfortunately, you are so caught up in the Punjabi vs Mohajir hatred that you cannot understand human suffering, the cruel injustice, and the damaging effects of this policy on Pakistan. May Allah open your eyes.
#431 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on May 30, 2007 10:43:46 am
#430 by zeemax on May 30, 2007 10:38am PT
{``I think all doubts should be removed by now with Beena Sarwar`s article in agonizing detail.
I really feel you should retract your statements, and condemn MQM and Musharraf for what they did. Its really no use denying. This nation can still forgive even though scars will remain.``}
Zeemax Sahib,
Beena`s account is rather one-sided and very opinionated. I detest ALL murderers and violence, but there should be some degree of fairness, proportionality, and balance in reporting events. Please see my embellishments to her article in that forum.
My tolerance of Musharraf is based solely on survival for Urdu-speaking Mohajirs. To his credit, he put an end to the carnage carried on in Karachi/Hyderabad by the Punjabi Rangers as directed by Bezamir and Besharif. I prefer democracy, but not a return to state terrorism of the early 90s. There was never any need for MQM and none existed from 1947 through 1986. It was merely a reaction to the decades of oppression, suppression, and injustice inflicted upon Urdu-speaking people, who were notorious for being meek, peaceful, and afraid of violence.
{``I think all doubts should be removed by now with Beena Sarwar`s article in agonizing detail.
I really feel you should retract your statements, and condemn MQM and Musharraf for what they did. Its really no use denying. This nation can still forgive even though scars will remain.``}
Zeemax Sahib,
Beena`s account is rather one-sided and very opinionated. I detest ALL murderers and violence, but there should be some degree of fairness, proportionality, and balance in reporting events. Please see my embellishments to her article in that forum.
My tolerance of Musharraf is based solely on survival for Urdu-speaking Mohajirs. To his credit, he put an end to the carnage carried on in Karachi/Hyderabad by the Punjabi Rangers as directed by Bezamir and Besharif. I prefer democracy, but not a return to state terrorism of the early 90s. There was never any need for MQM and none existed from 1947 through 1986. It was merely a reaction to the decades of oppression, suppression, and injustice inflicted upon Urdu-speaking people, who were notorious for being meek, peaceful, and afraid of violence.
#430 Posted by zeemax on May 30, 2007 10:38:01 am
#429 by Salim_Chauhan,
I think all doubts should be removed by now with Beena Sarwar`s article in agonizing detail.
I really feel you should retract your statements, and condemn MQM and Musharraf for what they did. Its really no use denying. This nation can still forgive even though scars will remain.
I think all doubts should be removed by now with Beena Sarwar`s article in agonizing detail.
I really feel you should retract your statements, and condemn MQM and Musharraf for what they did. Its really no use denying. This nation can still forgive even though scars will remain.
#429 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on May 30, 2007 10:10:14 am
#426 Zeemax {``Salim Bhai,
Re the stranded `Pakistanis` issue, do you really believe any Pakistani will support you when your convictions are as follows?
With or Without Musharraf – A Mohajir’s Perspective : Salim Chauhan, April 11, 2007. ``}
Zee Sahib,
Don`t do the right thing merely to support me. I was born in 1980, but these poor, unfortunate Pakistani Muslims have been suffering in Bangladesh since 1971 - long before my viewpoints were formed, revised, or stated. In fact, I used to be an avid Paki nationalist. I have even posted here as ``Barachota,`` when I first joined Chowk in 2004. My compassion for these people is based on my sense of humanity and decency. It may have affected how I feel about Pakistan now - a country that despises me and my kind. :(
Re the stranded `Pakistanis` issue, do you really believe any Pakistani will support you when your convictions are as follows?
With or Without Musharraf – A Mohajir’s Perspective : Salim Chauhan, April 11, 2007. ``}
Zee Sahib,
Don`t do the right thing merely to support me. I was born in 1980, but these poor, unfortunate Pakistani Muslims have been suffering in Bangladesh since 1971 - long before my viewpoints were formed, revised, or stated. In fact, I used to be an avid Paki nationalist. I have even posted here as ``Barachota,`` when I first joined Chowk in 2004. My compassion for these people is based on my sense of humanity and decency. It may have affected how I feel about Pakistan now - a country that despises me and my kind. :(
#428 Posted by masadi on May 30, 2007 9:55:21 am
tahmed writes <<< Democracy is the only way to go for Pakistan. Military rule has brought it nothing but fascism in one form or another >>>
Tahmed talks the talk, just like the US elite, regarding democracy but when the time comes to walk the walk these hypocrites support all the military dictators as they know that the only way for them to pursue their perverse policies is through dictators. Tahmed says not a word about the US role in the shape the Pak Army assumed due its relationship with it, neither about how this military and its dictators have been blessed and supported and helped by the US elite as they fulfill their perverse motives in the region, Ayub, Zia and Musharraf have all been darlings of the US elite at one time or the other; US policy in Latin America and the Middle East region reveals similar ``walking the walk`` with dictators while talking the ``democracy`` talk. Hypocrites are like snakes, their posts are deceitful yet poisionous, wrapped up in beautiful words, yet designed to kill and maim....You don`t fool me tahmed. You are the worst among humanity, one that suppots colonization and the enslavement of humankind, supported the US barbaric war on Iraq, and was acting as an apologist for the Atlantic Slave Trade of his Anglo Saxon masters. Your kind need to be dragged through the streets of every country your masters have harmed, for were it not for AHs like you they could never have dominated us in the way that they did...
Tahmed talks the talk, just like the US elite, regarding democracy but when the time comes to walk the walk these hypocrites support all the military dictators as they know that the only way for them to pursue their perverse policies is through dictators. Tahmed says not a word about the US role in the shape the Pak Army assumed due its relationship with it, neither about how this military and its dictators have been blessed and supported and helped by the US elite as they fulfill their perverse motives in the region, Ayub, Zia and Musharraf have all been darlings of the US elite at one time or the other; US policy in Latin America and the Middle East region reveals similar ``walking the walk`` with dictators while talking the ``democracy`` talk. Hypocrites are like snakes, their posts are deceitful yet poisionous, wrapped up in beautiful words, yet designed to kill and maim....You don`t fool me tahmed. You are the worst among humanity, one that suppots colonization and the enslavement of humankind, supported the US barbaric war on Iraq, and was acting as an apologist for the Atlantic Slave Trade of his Anglo Saxon masters. Your kind need to be dragged through the streets of every country your masters have harmed, for were it not for AHs like you they could never have dominated us in the way that they did...
#427 Posted by zeemax on May 30, 2007 9:44:45 am
#426 by Salim_Chauhan,
Salim Bhai,
Re the stranded `Pakistanis` issue, do you really believe any Pakistani will support you when your convictions are as follows?
With or Without Musharraf – A Mohajir’s Perspective : Salim Chauhan, April 11, 2007.
Quote:``Whether we stay in Pakistan, go it alone, or confederate with like-minded freedom loving Sindhis or Baluchis, there are many steps we can take in the interim. ... We can look to Singapore as a model for our evolution.`` Unquote.
Do you want Punjabis to support you in shipping to Pakistan hundreds of thousands of your potential cadres ripe for MQM indoctrination for making Jinnahpur? You must be joking.
I think you owe Pakistanis an explanation.
Salim Bhai,
Re the stranded `Pakistanis` issue, do you really believe any Pakistani will support you when your convictions are as follows?
With or Without Musharraf – A Mohajir’s Perspective : Salim Chauhan, April 11, 2007.
Quote:``Whether we stay in Pakistan, go it alone, or confederate with like-minded freedom loving Sindhis or Baluchis, there are many steps we can take in the interim. ... We can look to Singapore as a model for our evolution.`` Unquote.
Do you want Punjabis to support you in shipping to Pakistan hundreds of thousands of your potential cadres ripe for MQM indoctrination for making Jinnahpur? You must be joking.
I think you owe Pakistanis an explanation.
#426 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on May 30, 2007 9:19:06 am
#416 Tahmed32 {``SalimChauhan: My ``compassion`` or lack thereof on the ``stranded pakistani`` issue does not matter one bit in real life, since Pakistan government policies are not set based on what some chowk poster writes. And by the same token, my views send a ``strong message`` to no one, and in fact you are the only chowk poster who has been brought this up.
And to repeat myself, I think I am merely stating the obvious that mqm`s violence and making of ethnic issues in the 1980`s reduced sympathies for the ``stranded pakistanis`` among many people.
... If there has been no backlash against mohajirs in Lahore after the slaughter of May 12, it is not because of fear of mqm - rather it is because there is zero concern of mqm on the part of anyone other than those unfortunate enough to be living in karachi/hyderabad. ``}
Dear Mr. Tahmed32:
I appreciate your detailed response and your attempt to justify the continued ``stranding`` of Pakistanis in Bangladesh. Bismillah Bhai (rf786) has already provided an eloquent and fact-based response to each of your points. I am sure that his response is far more effective and convincing than anything that I could offer.
Please allow me to disagree with you again on the issue of ``stranded`` Pakistanis in Bangladesh - those whom you easily and nonchalantly dismiss as ``Biharis.`` Sir, you cannot use the violence of the 1980s to justify their inexplicable suffering and their continued ``stranding`` which started in 1971. From 1971 to 1986 there was no MQM, no so-called Urdu-speaking ghoondas, and no May 12 ``carnage.`` How dare you use today`s conditions to justify an illegal and shameless act of the Government of Pakistan from the early 70s? This attempt is as ridiculous as someone saying that the massacre of half a million Punjabi Muslims in East Punjab during 1947 was justified because these Punjabis would have added to the numbers of those Punjabis who committed atrocities in East Pakistan in 1971, Karachi in 1989 and the early 90`s, and now Baluchistan, NWFP, and AK.
You establish a viewpoint and then proclaim that the Government of Pakistan does not react to such opinions. Excuse me, but sir, you might represent the majority view of the Pisser-e-Zameen or Sons of the Soil. Of course, this same viewpoint of yours (multiplied by millions of Punjabis and Sindhis) results in extreme pressure on the GoP and, consequently hundreds of thousands of loyal and long-suffering Pakistani Muslims continue to suffer in Bangladesh. Obviously you have no compassion for the thousands of young women forced to prostitute themselves to feed their families. As a Muslim, you don`t even feel the anguish of poor Pakistanis forced to convert to Christianity to obtain much-needed aid from missionaries. You don`t even care about the impact this continued injustice has on the reputation of Pakistan, the value of Pakistani citizenship, and the demoralizing effect this has on the otherwise loyal and proud Urdu-speaking Pakistanis.
Mr. Tahmed, many Pakistani Punjabis have ridiculed me as a ``Bihari,`` and Chowkies such as Atif2, Ali1, Zeemax, Ally, and many others have heaped on racial, ethnic, and abusive insults (Muttarwas, Paan-chewing Biharis, HindustaaNRa, Panahguzeer, etc...). I can dismiss this nonsense as typical Paindoo rhetoric, but your viewpoint is much more insidious, much more pernicious, and far more sinister in its effects. Let me reassure you that I am NOT a Bihari, I have no Bihari relatives, and I don`t know anyone who is ``stranded`` in Bangladesh. But then, I didn`t know any of the earthquake victims or survivors, but my wife and I did our best to collect and dispatch supplies and food for those unfortunate Pakistanis. Compassion should never be tainted in racial, ethnic, or linguistic terms.
Once again, I appeal to your humanity, your faith, and your nationalism to do the right thing - apologize for your insensitivity. Do it for Pakistan, do it for Islam, and most importantly do it for the sake of simple compassion for fellow human beings. You cannot appeal to Urdu-speaking Mohajirs to join you in your call for ``democracy,`` while telling them that Pakistanis, like them, who happen to speak Urdu as a native language, are NOT welcome in Pakistan. Thank you.
PS – I have decided to ignore your veiled threat against Urdu-speaking residents of Lahore. Obviously, you did not mean it in those terms even though, coming from you, it sure sounded rather hostile and condescending.
And to repeat myself, I think I am merely stating the obvious that mqm`s violence and making of ethnic issues in the 1980`s reduced sympathies for the ``stranded pakistanis`` among many people.
... If there has been no backlash against mohajirs in Lahore after the slaughter of May 12, it is not because of fear of mqm - rather it is because there is zero concern of mqm on the part of anyone other than those unfortunate enough to be living in karachi/hyderabad. ``}
Dear Mr. Tahmed32:
I appreciate your detailed response and your attempt to justify the continued ``stranding`` of Pakistanis in Bangladesh. Bismillah Bhai (rf786) has already provided an eloquent and fact-based response to each of your points. I am sure that his response is far more effective and convincing than anything that I could offer.
Please allow me to disagree with you again on the issue of ``stranded`` Pakistanis in Bangladesh - those whom you easily and nonchalantly dismiss as ``Biharis.`` Sir, you cannot use the violence of the 1980s to justify their inexplicable suffering and their continued ``stranding`` which started in 1971. From 1971 to 1986 there was no MQM, no so-called Urdu-speaking ghoondas, and no May 12 ``carnage.`` How dare you use today`s conditions to justify an illegal and shameless act of the Government of Pakistan from the early 70s? This attempt is as ridiculous as someone saying that the massacre of half a million Punjabi Muslims in East Punjab during 1947 was justified because these Punjabis would have added to the numbers of those Punjabis who committed atrocities in East Pakistan in 1971, Karachi in 1989 and the early 90`s, and now Baluchistan, NWFP, and AK.
You establish a viewpoint and then proclaim that the Government of Pakistan does not react to such opinions. Excuse me, but sir, you might represent the majority view of the Pisser-e-Zameen or Sons of the Soil. Of course, this same viewpoint of yours (multiplied by millions of Punjabis and Sindhis) results in extreme pressure on the GoP and, consequently hundreds of thousands of loyal and long-suffering Pakistani Muslims continue to suffer in Bangladesh. Obviously you have no compassion for the thousands of young women forced to prostitute themselves to feed their families. As a Muslim, you don`t even feel the anguish of poor Pakistanis forced to convert to Christianity to obtain much-needed aid from missionaries. You don`t even care about the impact this continued injustice has on the reputation of Pakistan, the value of Pakistani citizenship, and the demoralizing effect this has on the otherwise loyal and proud Urdu-speaking Pakistanis.
Mr. Tahmed, many Pakistani Punjabis have ridiculed me as a ``Bihari,`` and Chowkies such as Atif2, Ali1, Zeemax, Ally, and many others have heaped on racial, ethnic, and abusive insults (Muttarwas, Paan-chewing Biharis, HindustaaNRa, Panahguzeer, etc...). I can dismiss this nonsense as typical Paindoo rhetoric, but your viewpoint is much more insidious, much more pernicious, and far more sinister in its effects. Let me reassure you that I am NOT a Bihari, I have no Bihari relatives, and I don`t know anyone who is ``stranded`` in Bangladesh. But then, I didn`t know any of the earthquake victims or survivors, but my wife and I did our best to collect and dispatch supplies and food for those unfortunate Pakistanis. Compassion should never be tainted in racial, ethnic, or linguistic terms.
Once again, I appeal to your humanity, your faith, and your nationalism to do the right thing - apologize for your insensitivity. Do it for Pakistan, do it for Islam, and most importantly do it for the sake of simple compassion for fellow human beings. You cannot appeal to Urdu-speaking Mohajirs to join you in your call for ``democracy,`` while telling them that Pakistanis, like them, who happen to speak Urdu as a native language, are NOT welcome in Pakistan. Thank you.
PS – I have decided to ignore your veiled threat against Urdu-speaking residents of Lahore. Obviously, you did not mean it in those terms even though, coming from you, it sure sounded rather hostile and condescending.
#425 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on May 30, 2007 8:53:39 am
#422 rf786 {``Ethnic fascism? What Pathan Anp and Baloch ethnic parties practice that is national politics? Clearly, your writings on Mqm betray some deep seated or conditioned hatred which makes it rascist because the same rancour is not seen for other ethnic people. As mentioned above, why do u not express the same sentiments for the Pathan nationalists killing Pak soldiers and their supporters in the tribal and frontier belt?
...Where do these brave Pakistanis vanish when state terrorism is practiced on the citizens of Karachi, Hyderabad, Balochistan? Where do these brave citizens find refuge when Naseer Lulla Baber is hailed as a national hero? How does this bravery evaporate when confronted by the Lal Masjid/Taliban terrorism?``}
Bismillah Bhai,
Thank you very much for providing such a thoughtful, polite, and fact-based response to Mr. Tahmed`s numerous complaints against Mohajirs, Urdu-speakers, MQM, and ghoondaism. I appreciate your taking the time to address each of his points and request a sense of balance and proportionality in his viewpoints. Thanks again.
...Where do these brave Pakistanis vanish when state terrorism is practiced on the citizens of Karachi, Hyderabad, Balochistan? Where do these brave citizens find refuge when Naseer Lulla Baber is hailed as a national hero? How does this bravery evaporate when confronted by the Lal Masjid/Taliban terrorism?``}
Bismillah Bhai,
Thank you very much for providing such a thoughtful, polite, and fact-based response to Mr. Tahmed`s numerous complaints against Mohajirs, Urdu-speakers, MQM, and ghoondaism. I appreciate your taking the time to address each of his points and request a sense of balance and proportionality in his viewpoints. Thanks again.
#424 Posted by okhla99 on May 30, 2007 8:36:21 am
#416 Tahmed
Brother Tahmed,
I think that in this post you have outdone yourselves. I must have read it a dozen times.
I and many many others find ourselves in complete agreement.
I wonder how the pseudo (read hypocrite) crowd would react !!!
Brother Tahmed,
I think that in this post you have outdone yourselves. I must have read it a dozen times.
I and many many others find ourselves in complete agreement.
I wonder how the pseudo (read hypocrite) crowd would react !!!
#423 Posted by aquaris on May 30, 2007 3:34:55 am
Re: # 396
`` Punjabis were there standing with picks and shovels and telling them ``Aggey jao ... Pakistan aggey hai``. ``
LOL Yeah.....
With WALTON the biggest refuge camp, before Afghanistan crisis...
I must scratch My head.....and wonder....!!
Walton is in Lahore...or near Lahore.( Chungi Amar Sadhuu )....?? isn`t it.....??
I say..... these Paki Panjoos were taken for a LoNG.....ride.....!!
`` Punjabis were there standing with picks and shovels and telling them ``Aggey jao ... Pakistan aggey hai``. ``
LOL Yeah.....
With WALTON the biggest refuge camp, before Afghanistan crisis...
I must scratch My head.....and wonder....!!
Walton is in Lahore...or near Lahore.( Chungi Amar Sadhuu )....?? isn`t it.....??
I say..... these Paki Panjoos were taken for a LoNG.....ride.....!!
#422 Posted by rf786 on May 30, 2007 2:49:31 am
Re: # 416
Dear tahmed32,
If u will be kind enough to allow me the opportunity to respond, it will be greatly appreciated. Purpose is not to blow holes in your argument but to state the other point of view.
{And the proof of this is in the fact that there has not been any mqm-like panjabi ethnic party even as a minority party}
Punjab is the majority by default thus has no need to remind others of its status. Pakistan has had its share of ethnic parties since inception which is not mentioned by yourself or the general interactors painting Mqm as the Only ethnic party. ANP is and has always been a Pathan nationalist/ethnic party, PPP used to play their Sindh card back in the eighties-nineties, NS PML used the Jaag Punjaabi Jaag mantra against PPP (Sindhi) back in 1988 and Balochistan political scene has always been dominated by nationalist/ethnic parties.
{On the other hand, and as I noted earlier, panjabis (or pathans or baluch) are not exactly shaking with fear of mqm either.... If there has been no backlash against mohajirs in Lahore after the slaughter of May 12...}
Why this jingoistic rhetoric? Does the Ghandasa need to be raised everytime a minority challenges the majority? What kind of backlash in Lahore are u talking about? Is this a threat to those settled urdu speaking Lahoris? Some clarification will help. By the way, when Pak soldiers are being killed by Wana militants, whu dont u express the same sentiments for your/our pathan brethren?
{ethnic fascism of mqm (which was created by zia to counter the popularity of PPP I believe).}
Ethnic fascism? What Pathan Anp and Baloch ethnic parties practice that is national politics? Clearly, your writings on Mqm betray some deep seated or conditioned hatred which makes it rascist because the same rancour is not seen for other ethnic people. As mentioned above, why do u not express the same sentiments for the Pathan nationalists killing Pak soldiers and their supporters in the tribal and frontier belt?
And please, Zia did not create Mqm to counter the popularity of PPP simply because PPP never had a popular base in Karachi or Hyderabad, if there was any political party to lose because of Mqm it was primarily JI followed by JUP, both parties were supporters of Zia.
{Brave Pakistanis inside Pakistan are speaking out for democracy.}
Where do these brave Pakistanis vanish when state terrorism is practiced on the citizens of Karachi, Hyderabad, Balochistan? Where do these brave citizens find refuge when Naseer Lulla Baber is hailed as a national hero? How does this bravery evaporate when confronted by the Lal Masjid/Taliban terrorism?
{since these are merely my personal views as someone who wishes nothing more than to see all Pakistanis (regardless of ethnicity) prosper in a democratic nation that is at peace with itself, with its neighbors and with the rest of the world}
Nice words, wud sound better if some fairness, objectivity is expressed in real terms. Classic example would be this recent episode involving Mqm and CJ visit to Karachi. I do not support what Mqm did nor do I condone their actions BUT for the love of god cannot understand the reaction of Punjab and Frontier. For 12years, Karachi/Hyderabad were burning with state sponsored terrorism and never, never did anyone from Frontier or Punjab stage such a vehement opposition being expressed post May 12. For the last atleast two years, Taliban or Pathan rebellion is raging on the western border, but not once has any political leader (Imran Khan et al) expressed the same anguish as being displayed against Mqm. More than six hundred pak soldiers have been killed on the western border, yet that does not draw even whisper of condemnation by JI, JUI, ANP, PTI etc tec. Is this not classic racial bigotry?
Let me conclude by saying, Pakistan is a state that comprises of 160MM citizens of diverse religious and ethnic backgrounds the earlier we start respecting each other the better.
Dear tahmed32,
If u will be kind enough to allow me the opportunity to respond, it will be greatly appreciated. Purpose is not to blow holes in your argument but to state the other point of view.
{And the proof of this is in the fact that there has not been any mqm-like panjabi ethnic party even as a minority party}
Punjab is the majority by default thus has no need to remind others of its status. Pakistan has had its share of ethnic parties since inception which is not mentioned by yourself or the general interactors painting Mqm as the Only ethnic party. ANP is and has always been a Pathan nationalist/ethnic party, PPP used to play their Sindh card back in the eighties-nineties, NS PML used the Jaag Punjaabi Jaag mantra against PPP (Sindhi) back in 1988 and Balochistan political scene has always been dominated by nationalist/ethnic parties.
{On the other hand, and as I noted earlier, panjabis (or pathans or baluch) are not exactly shaking with fear of mqm either.... If there has been no backlash against mohajirs in Lahore after the slaughter of May 12...}
Why this jingoistic rhetoric? Does the Ghandasa need to be raised everytime a minority challenges the majority? What kind of backlash in Lahore are u talking about? Is this a threat to those settled urdu speaking Lahoris? Some clarification will help. By the way, when Pak soldiers are being killed by Wana militants, whu dont u express the same sentiments for your/our pathan brethren?
{ethnic fascism of mqm (which was created by zia to counter the popularity of PPP I believe).}
Ethnic fascism? What Pathan Anp and Baloch ethnic parties practice that is national politics? Clearly, your writings on Mqm betray some deep seated or conditioned hatred which makes it rascist because the same rancour is not seen for other ethnic people. As mentioned above, why do u not express the same sentiments for the Pathan nationalists killing Pak soldiers and their supporters in the tribal and frontier belt?
And please, Zia did not create Mqm to counter the popularity of PPP simply because PPP never had a popular base in Karachi or Hyderabad, if there was any political party to lose because of Mqm it was primarily JI followed by JUP, both parties were supporters of Zia.
{Brave Pakistanis inside Pakistan are speaking out for democracy.}
Where do these brave Pakistanis vanish when state terrorism is practiced on the citizens of Karachi, Hyderabad, Balochistan? Where do these brave citizens find refuge when Naseer Lulla Baber is hailed as a national hero? How does this bravery evaporate when confronted by the Lal Masjid/Taliban terrorism?
{since these are merely my personal views as someone who wishes nothing more than to see all Pakistanis (regardless of ethnicity) prosper in a democratic nation that is at peace with itself, with its neighbors and with the rest of the world}
Nice words, wud sound better if some fairness, objectivity is expressed in real terms. Classic example would be this recent episode involving Mqm and CJ visit to Karachi. I do not support what Mqm did nor do I condone their actions BUT for the love of god cannot understand the reaction of Punjab and Frontier. For 12years, Karachi/Hyderabad were burning with state sponsored terrorism and never, never did anyone from Frontier or Punjab stage such a vehement opposition being expressed post May 12. For the last atleast two years, Taliban or Pathan rebellion is raging on the western border, but not once has any political leader (Imran Khan et al) expressed the same anguish as being displayed against Mqm. More than six hundred pak soldiers have been killed on the western border, yet that does not draw even whisper of condemnation by JI, JUI, ANP, PTI etc tec. Is this not classic racial bigotry?
Let me conclude by saying, Pakistan is a state that comprises of 160MM citizens of diverse religious and ethnic backgrounds the earlier we start respecting each other the better.
#421 Posted by haji004 on May 30, 2007 1:23:42 am
Re: # 247
Amen Brother...Tu cha gaya...
Read the interacts of my articles...Militant Liberalism and you`ll see the reality...
Regards
Ahmad Hayat
Amen Brother...Tu cha gaya...
Read the interacts of my articles...Militant Liberalism and you`ll see the reality...
Regards
Ahmad Hayat
#420 Posted by zeemax on May 29, 2007 11:12:13 pm
Haha ... Echoboom is the limit .... (views exclusively of the author :)
May 28, 2007
How the Westoxicated Pakis were enslaved..
....`` I can`r read & write Urdu, I can`t cook Biryaani..Nihaari, I enjoy behaving westernish , kanjarR like, Im professional, I like goraa Ishtyle but hate Islamic laws...Is that not proof sufficient proof that I am maadrate, can cook Raushan-khayali-PuulaaOs, and maaadren, & like a snake molted my Desi Skin culture & religion?
But why O why they still mistake me for a Desi & a muslim?
Maybe I`ll act more KanjarR..only then they`ll know I am a graduate of MIT``
......................musings of a Desi woman caught in a Neuronal & hormonal Time-Warp.
May 28, 2007
How the Westoxicated Pakis were enslaved..
....`` I can`r read & write Urdu, I can`t cook Biryaani..Nihaari, I enjoy behaving westernish , kanjarR like, Im professional, I like goraa Ishtyle but hate Islamic laws...Is that not proof sufficient proof that I am maadrate, can cook Raushan-khayali-PuulaaOs, and maaadren, & like a snake molted my Desi Skin culture & religion?
But why O why they still mistake me for a Desi & a muslim?
Maybe I`ll act more KanjarR..only then they`ll know I am a graduate of MIT``
......................musings of a Desi woman caught in a Neuronal & hormonal Time-Warp.
#419 Posted by zeemax on May 29, 2007 10:50:01 pm
#415 by abu_safwaan
AS LONG AS THe ACT DOESNT BECOME THE SOURCE OF CORRUPTION for THE SOCIETY AT LARGE.
Mohtarim, that`s exactly what I`m saying. If such acts are legalised (just as in gay marriages), then these no longer remain a taboo and result in societal decay.
#414 by Naqshbandi
...i would hope they wouldnt do such stuff but if they did i would let my personal objections be known. that is not the same as saying it shouldnt be legally allowed between consenting adults....because from a human rights pov there is no argument against it. yes we can use religious arguments but what if the person is non religious?
Sir, I salute you. You`re a true Sufi. As hamidm2 cheers your joining his ranks in #418 ... I intone in unison with you both:
AS LONG AS THe ACT DOESNT BECOME THE SOURCE OF CORRUPTION for THE SOCIETY AT LARGE.
Mohtarim, that`s exactly what I`m saying. If such acts are legalised (just as in gay marriages), then these no longer remain a taboo and result in societal decay.
#414 by Naqshbandi
...i would hope they wouldnt do such stuff but if they did i would let my personal objections be known. that is not the same as saying it shouldnt be legally allowed between consenting adults....because from a human rights pov there is no argument against it. yes we can use religious arguments but what if the person is non religious?
Sir, I salute you. You`re a true Sufi. As hamidm2 cheers your joining his ranks in #418 ... I intone in unison with you both:
MAULA HOOOOOOOOO !!!
#418 Posted by hamidm2 on May 29, 2007 8:17:55 pm
Re: # 414
naqshbandi,
......... you are all right ! ...........even though organized religion is the biggest curse that has plagued mankind, all religious people are not rotten to the core like the wahabis here .......... thanks for restoring my faith (partially) .......
....... now, if you will accept ahmedis as muslims and lift the ban on bacon and whiskey, i will convert to naqshbandism, or whatever it is that you practice ............
naqshbandi,
......... you are all right ! ...........even though organized religion is the biggest curse that has plagued mankind, all religious people are not rotten to the core like the wahabis here .......... thanks for restoring my faith (partially) .......
....... now, if you will accept ahmedis as muslims and lift the ban on bacon and whiskey, i will convert to naqshbandism, or whatever it is that you practice ............
#417 Posted by Cigar on May 29, 2007 8:02:19 pm
Re: # 416
This read was like coming from heart. I think this the opinion and emotions of all Pakistanis today. We need to unite, there is no good in staying apart on the basis of issues which are completely non issues. We have common enemies and they don`t belong to one ethnic group, they all belong to same bloodsucking group. We have to rise against them ... united.
This read was like coming from heart. I think this the opinion and emotions of all Pakistanis today. We need to unite, there is no good in staying apart on the basis of issues which are completely non issues. We have common enemies and they don`t belong to one ethnic group, they all belong to same bloodsucking group. We have to rise against them ... united.
#416 Posted by tahmed32 on May 29, 2007 7:46:24 pm
SalimChauhan: My ``compassion`` or lack thereof on the ``stranded pakistani`` issue does not matter one bit in real life, since Pakistan government policies are not set based on what some chowk poster writes. And by the same token, my views send a ``strong message`` to no one, and in fact you are the only chowk poster who has been brought this up.
And to repeat myself, I think I am merely stating the obvious that mqm`s violence and making of ethnic issues in the 1980`s reduced sympathies for the ``stranded pakistanis`` among many people. I recall behram mentioning this to you as well, so this is not exactly an outrageous conclusion. So, please dont see what I think is a perfectly reasonable conclusion as being ``lack of compassion``, although we can simply agree to disagree since it is not unreasonable for people to arrive at different conclusions based on the same set of facts.
And you have no basis for calling panjabis as being racist either: The proof of this is in the fact is that Musharraf`s overthrow of Nawaz Sharif was welcomed in the panjab and made possible by non-muhajir (panjabi/pathan) generals. The proof of this is in the election of Sindhis BB and ZAB with great popular support in the panjab. The proof of this is in the fact that thousands of ``muhajirs`` have left karachi and live peacefully in Lahore and Rawalpindi throughout the 1980`s, 1990`s and to this day. If people have turned against musharraf now, it is not because of his ethnicity but because he made the same mistake Nawaz Sharif made that started the path to his removal - he sought to gain absolute power, and tried to over-ride the authority of the Supreme Court. And the proof of this is in the fact that there has not been any mqm-like panjabi ethnic party even as a minority party. And the proof of this is in the fact that many panjabis speak urdu with the same ease as they do panjabi. I could go on, but if this is not enough to make you realize how wrong you are in terming panjabis as racist nothing will.
On the other hand, and as I noted earlier, panjabis (or pathans or baluch) are not exactly shaking with fear of mqm either. Musharraf is beholden to non-mohajirs for his power, which is based on a large military. If there has been no backlash against mohajirs in Lahore after the slaughter of May 12, it is not because of fear of mqm - rather it is because there is zero concern of mqm on the part of anyone other than those unfortunate enough to be living in karachi/hyderabad.
So, if you accept the fact that there is neither fear nor hatred for mohajirs on the part of non-mohajirs of pakistan, you need to see who benefits from this use of mqm to prevent the chief justice from speaking in the same peaceful manner in karachi as he had done a few days earlier in Lahore. It is certainly not the mohajir community, certainly not the ``stranded pakistanis``, and of course not the rest of pakistan either.
Democracy is the only way to go for Pakistan. Military rule has brought it nothing but fascism in one form or another - fascism of the kind promoted by religious parties (who have benefitted tremendously from military rule, and who have failed miserably in elections whenver Pakistanis have been given the chance to vote) or the ethnic fascism of mqm (which was created by zia to counter the popularity of PPP I believe).
Brave Pakistanis inside Pakistan are speaking out for democracy. Perhaps musharraf will realize the wisdom of permitting free and fair elections for president, perhaps he will not. And God only knows where all this will lead to. But now is the time for mohajirs to either stand up and be counted as being among those who stood up against continued military rule, or to be among those who committed the carnage of May 12 to help a misguided military ruler suppress the basic right to free speech and peaceful assembly that the chief justice was asserting that day.
You can agree or disagree with what I have written above, since these are merely my personal views as someone who wishes nothing more than to see all Pakistanis (regardless of ethnicity) prosper in a democratic nation that is at peace with itself, with its neighbors and with the rest of the world. I am not running for any elections (not even on chowk!!), so these are my sincere opinions and there is no hypocrisy in what I say.
Also, on a matter of lesser national importance (!), I hope you will think again about the other questions I raised about not picking on female posters on unplugged or on ``panjus`` who have done you no harm, and which (as I mentioned) is ultimately in our own interest. You may not like my repeating this, but as I said, I am not running for any popularity contests on chowk. :-)
PS: sorry all for a lengthy post. took me an hour to write this, so i will not be writing any posts, or at least such lengthy ones, in the near future. I did think that instead of all of us mindlessly taking the cue from May 12 and engaging in mohajir vs non-mohajir arguments, stop to think of the wisdom behind engaging in such arguments. This is a time for all Pakistanis (and indeed, all people of the subcontinent particularly India) to unite and pray for a constructive resolution of the current crisis that Pakistan is going though without further bloodshed.
And to repeat myself, I think I am merely stating the obvious that mqm`s violence and making of ethnic issues in the 1980`s reduced sympathies for the ``stranded pakistanis`` among many people. I recall behram mentioning this to you as well, so this is not exactly an outrageous conclusion. So, please dont see what I think is a perfectly reasonable conclusion as being ``lack of compassion``, although we can simply agree to disagree since it is not unreasonable for people to arrive at different conclusions based on the same set of facts.
And you have no basis for calling panjabis as being racist either: The proof of this is in the fact is that Musharraf`s overthrow of Nawaz Sharif was welcomed in the panjab and made possible by non-muhajir (panjabi/pathan) generals. The proof of this is in the election of Sindhis BB and ZAB with great popular support in the panjab. The proof of this is in the fact that thousands of ``muhajirs`` have left karachi and live peacefully in Lahore and Rawalpindi throughout the 1980`s, 1990`s and to this day. If people have turned against musharraf now, it is not because of his ethnicity but because he made the same mistake Nawaz Sharif made that started the path to his removal - he sought to gain absolute power, and tried to over-ride the authority of the Supreme Court. And the proof of this is in the fact that there has not been any mqm-like panjabi ethnic party even as a minority party. And the proof of this is in the fact that many panjabis speak urdu with the same ease as they do panjabi. I could go on, but if this is not enough to make you realize how wrong you are in terming panjabis as racist nothing will.
On the other hand, and as I noted earlier, panjabis (or pathans or baluch) are not exactly shaking with fear of mqm either. Musharraf is beholden to non-mohajirs for his power, which is based on a large military. If there has been no backlash against mohajirs in Lahore after the slaughter of May 12, it is not because of fear of mqm - rather it is because there is zero concern of mqm on the part of anyone other than those unfortunate enough to be living in karachi/hyderabad.
So, if you accept the fact that there is neither fear nor hatred for mohajirs on the part of non-mohajirs of pakistan, you need to see who benefits from this use of mqm to prevent the chief justice from speaking in the same peaceful manner in karachi as he had done a few days earlier in Lahore. It is certainly not the mohajir community, certainly not the ``stranded pakistanis``, and of course not the rest of pakistan either.
Democracy is the only way to go for Pakistan. Military rule has brought it nothing but fascism in one form or another - fascism of the kind promoted by religious parties (who have benefitted tremendously from military rule, and who have failed miserably in elections whenver Pakistanis have been given the chance to vote) or the ethnic fascism of mqm (which was created by zia to counter the popularity of PPP I believe).
Brave Pakistanis inside Pakistan are speaking out for democracy. Perhaps musharraf will realize the wisdom of permitting free and fair elections for president, perhaps he will not. And God only knows where all this will lead to. But now is the time for mohajirs to either stand up and be counted as being among those who stood up against continued military rule, or to be among those who committed the carnage of May 12 to help a misguided military ruler suppress the basic right to free speech and peaceful assembly that the chief justice was asserting that day.
You can agree or disagree with what I have written above, since these are merely my personal views as someone who wishes nothing more than to see all Pakistanis (regardless of ethnicity) prosper in a democratic nation that is at peace with itself, with its neighbors and with the rest of the world. I am not running for any elections (not even on chowk!!), so these are my sincere opinions and there is no hypocrisy in what I say.
Also, on a matter of lesser national importance (!), I hope you will think again about the other questions I raised about not picking on female posters on unplugged or on ``panjus`` who have done you no harm, and which (as I mentioned) is ultimately in our own interest. You may not like my repeating this, but as I said, I am not running for any popularity contests on chowk. :-)
PS: sorry all for a lengthy post. took me an hour to write this, so i will not be writing any posts, or at least such lengthy ones, in the near future. I did think that instead of all of us mindlessly taking the cue from May 12 and engaging in mohajir vs non-mohajir arguments, stop to think of the wisdom behind engaging in such arguments. This is a time for all Pakistanis (and indeed, all people of the subcontinent particularly India) to unite and pray for a constructive resolution of the current crisis that Pakistan is going though without further bloodshed.
#415 Posted by abu_safwaan on May 29, 2007 2:07:05 pm
My humble opinion is that what is halal and haram in Islam is quite obvious and as an individual we must strive to adopt what is halal and refrain from haram as much as possible. Let me say that thru my very limited knowledge of Islam i am of the opinion that a true Islamic state (which doesnt exist) will not concern itself with who is sleeping with who or what in the privacy of their home, they shouldnt even raid the house out of mere suspicion AS LONG AS THe ACT DOESNT BECOME THE SOURCE OF CORRUPTION for THE SOCIETY AT LARGE.
#414 Posted by Naqshbandi on May 29, 2007 1:36:10 pm
zeemax,
as i said i dont approve of it religiously or morally but i dont think i have to right to tell others how they choose to live as long as they dont harm others. if i had children i would obviously try to bring them up as good muslims and tell them such things are prohibited. if when they reached adulthood and lived under their own roofs i would hope they wouldnt do such stuff but if they did i would let my personal objections be known. that is not the same as saying it shouldnt be legally allowed between consenting adults.
because from a human rights pov there is no argument against it. yes we can use religious arguments but what if the person is non religious?
as i said i dont approve of it religiously or morally but i dont think i have to right to tell others how they choose to live as long as they dont harm others. if i had children i would obviously try to bring them up as good muslims and tell them such things are prohibited. if when they reached adulthood and lived under their own roofs i would hope they wouldnt do such stuff but if they did i would let my personal objections be known. that is not the same as saying it shouldnt be legally allowed between consenting adults.
because from a human rights pov there is no argument against it. yes we can use religious arguments but what if the person is non religious?
#413 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on May 29, 2007 1:27:08 pm
#409 Tahmed32 {``As I said, this ``stranded pakistan`` is the only issue you can find when I told you to back your daily rantings about ``cha cha char so bees`` the ``panjoo racist`` etc. about me. And, being the only straw you could find, you are trying to stretch it to the max by saying I am ``vehemently`` opposed - the fact is that this is a minor side issue on chowk, and out of the thousands of posts I have written you would be challenged to find even one where i bring up the issue other than in correcting you periodically when you start parroting it.``}
Tahmed Sahib,
I stand behind my allegation that by being vehemently opposed to the repatriation of ``stranded`` Pakistanis in BD you send a very strong and personal message to all of us Urdu speaking Mohajirs. Because you obviously don`t have any real animosity against all of those 300,000 unfortunate people, your lack of compassion is driven by your prejudice and hatred against the Urdu-speaking Mohajirs of Karachi and Hyderabad. In your own words, you don`t want to add to our numbers in Pakistan and for this dubious display of Muslim brotherhood, you want us to be grateful and loyal Pakistanis? We may be all ``Biharis, Muttarwas, Panahguzeers, HindustaaNRas, and paan-chewing bhayyas,`` but we are NOT stupid. Please acknowledge your own personal hatred and may Allah forgive you for your hypocrisy.
On the issue of fresh air, time off from Chowk, and other tangential suggestions, please don`t be such a busybody. I don`t care how you waste your time and request you to mind your own business. My use of multiple nicks was necessitated by the former Chowk management`s nepotism when they used to ban me totally just because certain influential people did not like my retaliations. Regardless, that problem is now solved and I am content to be myself. Thanks for your concern. I wish you had similar concern for the welfare of unfortunate Pakistanis who are shamelessly prevented from coming to their own country by a myopic government and a racist majority.
Tahmed Sahib,
I stand behind my allegation that by being vehemently opposed to the repatriation of ``stranded`` Pakistanis in BD you send a very strong and personal message to all of us Urdu speaking Mohajirs. Because you obviously don`t have any real animosity against all of those 300,000 unfortunate people, your lack of compassion is driven by your prejudice and hatred against the Urdu-speaking Mohajirs of Karachi and Hyderabad. In your own words, you don`t want to add to our numbers in Pakistan and for this dubious display of Muslim brotherhood, you want us to be grateful and loyal Pakistanis? We may be all ``Biharis, Muttarwas, Panahguzeers, HindustaaNRas, and paan-chewing bhayyas,`` but we are NOT stupid. Please acknowledge your own personal hatred and may Allah forgive you for your hypocrisy.
On the issue of fresh air, time off from Chowk, and other tangential suggestions, please don`t be such a busybody. I don`t care how you waste your time and request you to mind your own business. My use of multiple nicks was necessitated by the former Chowk management`s nepotism when they used to ban me totally just because certain influential people did not like my retaliations. Regardless, that problem is now solved and I am content to be myself. Thanks for your concern. I wish you had similar concern for the welfare of unfortunate Pakistanis who are shamelessly prevented from coming to their own country by a myopic government and a racist majority.
#412 Posted by echoboom on May 29, 2007 12:28:41 pm
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#411 Posted by SaimaShah on May 29, 2007 11:52:55 am
Thanks for the great article, its objectivity, honesty and sheer bravery must be commended as always. The second last paragraph says it ALL. Pakistan is being bought and sold, but the money isn`t going to its people. The grand posturing politicians are just angry that they aren`t getting it. The Army has it and won`t let it go. It is all about who gets the money for selling to corporate interests. The joke is that the money will buy off a few people in their lifetime and ultimately go to Corporations. The real money will always go to the great Corporations and ultimately to their governments. Those who died in the streets of my country are the true unsung heroes of anti-globalization. Alas, who will write their story, who will carry their burden?
I hope that the solution you propose takes place, otherwise the dream of a sovereign and independent country will die with us.
I hope that the solution you propose takes place, otherwise the dream of a sovereign and independent country will die with us.
#410 Posted by tahmed32 on May 29, 2007 11:35:02 am
zeemax: sorry, i used up all my chowk time on #409 below. :-(
will be back later to see the posts you addressed to me and may get back with a response.
will be back later to see the posts you addressed to me and may get back with a response.
#409 Posted by tahmed32 on May 29, 2007 11:33:49 am
#383 salimchauhan: you write ``When you vehemently oppose the repatriation of legitimate Pakistani citizens to their own country, you send a strong message.``
As I said, this ``stranded pakistan`` is the only issue you can find when I told you to back your daily rantings about ``cha cha char so bees`` the ``panjoo racist`` etc. about me. And, being the only straw you could find, you are trying to stretch it to the max by saying I am ``vehemently`` opposed - the fact is that this is a minor side issue on chowk, and out of the thousands of posts I have written you would be challenged to find even one where i bring up the issue other than in correcting you periodically when you start parroting it. And as i said, i am prepared to discuss it with any reasonable person on chowk if they have any questions on where I am coming from here which is nothing more than stating the obvious implications of mqms ghoonda-like behavior.
So, dont hide behind this issue that you have conveniently made up The facts of your hatred for me are as I stated in my previous post.
I see that while not writing pure abuse (as per your earlier post) this time you are merely calling me as a ``lazy old man`` while remaining quiet on the other issues I pointed out to you. Whether I am lazy or energetic you dont know, and as for my age - I consider that to be a plus even though coming from you it was no doubt meant as an insult. Because you see age as a sign of weakness, and like a classic bully you are on the lookout for any sign of weakness in anyone. Just as you see being female a weakness, and so routinely write such lewd ridicule of individual females who - as one female chowkie who happens to be part-mohajir put it - consider you a ``chowk cancer``.
Anyway, whil being quiet on the suggestion I gave you in my previous post it would be you to your advantage to reflect upon it. Last time I gave you advice (i.e. to end you stupid habit of using multiple nicks since you were fooling no one) you actually took it and have been better off since I think. That of course was when I was one of the few remaining chowkies who exchanged friendly posts with you. What I am suggesting now in my post below (to forget chowk for a minute and get some fresh air) may be harder to do, but rest assured it is meant in the same sincerity (not hypocrisy) as the earlier advice. Unless you enjoy being considered a ``chowk cancer`` by virtually all female posters (with the notable exception of zeena) and enjoy the ``chhittar parades`` I mentioned earlier that you periodically receive from otherwise perfectly friendly male posters (indian and pakistani alike) who on Chowk Unplugged. Now you can get mad at me for stating the obvious, and start trying to save face before a group of faceless people on chowk, or you can reflect on this, since you are not totally stupid.
As I said, this ``stranded pakistan`` is the only issue you can find when I told you to back your daily rantings about ``cha cha char so bees`` the ``panjoo racist`` etc. about me. And, being the only straw you could find, you are trying to stretch it to the max by saying I am ``vehemently`` opposed - the fact is that this is a minor side issue on chowk, and out of the thousands of posts I have written you would be challenged to find even one where i bring up the issue other than in correcting you periodically when you start parroting it. And as i said, i am prepared to discuss it with any reasonable person on chowk if they have any questions on where I am coming from here which is nothing more than stating the obvious implications of mqms ghoonda-like behavior.
So, dont hide behind this issue that you have conveniently made up The facts of your hatred for me are as I stated in my previous post.
I see that while not writing pure abuse (as per your earlier post) this time you are merely calling me as a ``lazy old man`` while remaining quiet on the other issues I pointed out to you. Whether I am lazy or energetic you dont know, and as for my age - I consider that to be a plus even though coming from you it was no doubt meant as an insult. Because you see age as a sign of weakness, and like a classic bully you are on the lookout for any sign of weakness in anyone. Just as you see being female a weakness, and so routinely write such lewd ridicule of individual females who - as one female chowkie who happens to be part-mohajir put it - consider you a ``chowk cancer``.
Anyway, whil being quiet on the suggestion I gave you in my previous post it would be you to your advantage to reflect upon it. Last time I gave you advice (i.e. to end you stupid habit of using multiple nicks since you were fooling no one) you actually took it and have been better off since I think. That of course was when I was one of the few remaining chowkies who exchanged friendly posts with you. What I am suggesting now in my post below (to forget chowk for a minute and get some fresh air) may be harder to do, but rest assured it is meant in the same sincerity (not hypocrisy) as the earlier advice. Unless you enjoy being considered a ``chowk cancer`` by virtually all female posters (with the notable exception of zeena) and enjoy the ``chhittar parades`` I mentioned earlier that you periodically receive from otherwise perfectly friendly male posters (indian and pakistani alike) who on Chowk Unplugged. Now you can get mad at me for stating the obvious, and start trying to save face before a group of faceless people on chowk, or you can reflect on this, since you are not totally stupid.
#408 Posted by Urstruly on May 29, 2007 11:29:48 am
A SHAMEFUL CHAPTER IN THE HISTORY OF NA PAK FOUJ - Affidevit of Chief Justice Iftekhar M. Chowdry.
Read and weep.
http://daily.urdupoint.com/todayNewsLive.php?news_id=31338&featured=1&cat_id=2
#407 Posted by abu_safwaan on May 29, 2007 11:20:40 am
Re: # 405
I was actually referring to the picture of the monkey and hinting at ur approval of Ms. Sherry rehmans guilt when Gilan`s hand brushed her chest. I was merely expressing my point of view, you are big boy so you can decide for ur own how you should behave, i am just a lil concerned because it hurts ur credibility when you are sayin sane things especially regarding Islam.
I was actually referring to the picture of the monkey and hinting at ur approval of Ms. Sherry rehmans guilt when Gilan`s hand brushed her chest. I was merely expressing my point of view, you are big boy so you can decide for ur own how you should behave, i am just a lil concerned because it hurts ur credibility when you are sayin sane things especially regarding Islam.
#406 Posted by zeemax on May 29, 2007 10:58:50 am
#402 by Salim_Chauhan
``KNOWS`` is not the same as ``TALKS.``
Ohhhh ... I get it now. So that`s what you meant!
You`re indeed a wily AH.
(AH=Altaf Hussain)
``KNOWS`` is not the same as ``TALKS.``
Ohhhh ... I get it now. So that`s what you meant!
You`re indeed a wily AH.
(AH=Altaf Hussain)
#405 Posted by zeemax on May 29, 2007 10:55:21 am
...contd...#404
....but for individuals with whom we have differences of opinion in masail but our aqeedah is the same ...
Bhai/Behen ka byah konsey aqeedeh mein jaez hai?
....but for individuals with whom we have differences of opinion in masail but our aqeedah is the same ...
Bhai/Behen ka byah konsey aqeedeh mein jaez hai?
#404 Posted by zeemax on May 29, 2007 10:52:29 am
#401 by abu_safwaan,
Again point taken, but I suppose you`re pointing to the brother/sister marriage photo I posted to Naqshbandi. In response he said he supported it. Are you talking about that?
If that`s the case, I suggest you go back and read Naqshbandi`s response and then tell me whether I should consider him even as much a Muslim as hamidm2 is.
Again point taken, but I suppose you`re pointing to the brother/sister marriage photo I posted to Naqshbandi. In response he said he supported it. Are you talking about that?
If that`s the case, I suggest you go back and read Naqshbandi`s response and then tell me whether I should consider him even as much a Muslim as hamidm2 is.
#403 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on May 29, 2007 10:47:49 am
Zee,
I am now fully convinced that you are neither a racist nor a hypocrite. Your problem is one of size - a small brain and too much inferiority complex. You mask it by appearing to be racist, but then your small brain exposes you to be a simpleton - a PAINDOO. The Punju part just augments the problem. Khuda Hafiz. :)
I am now fully convinced that you are neither a racist nor a hypocrite. Your problem is one of size - a small brain and too much inferiority complex. You mask it by appearing to be racist, but then your small brain exposes you to be a simpleton - a PAINDOO. The Punju part just augments the problem. Khuda Hafiz. :)
#402 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on May 29, 2007 10:42:24 am
#399 Zeemax {``Again, you`re lying! This hindoo 786 was talking about me and not tahmed32. Besides I`ve never heard tahmed32 use such vocabulary either.``}
Zee,
Yaar, kiss pagal ullu se qismat takraai he :)
Listen, fool - I never intended for ``this guy`` to refer to you. I was referring to Chacha Chaar Sau Bees, to whom the original #385 from rf786 was addressed. Also, I said: ``This guy knows only vocabulary that associated ``Maa di, Payn di`` with anatomical references such as ``bund, phuddi, and lun.``
``KNOWS`` is not the same as ``TALKS.``
I am not trying to fool you, just trying to set the record straight. Personally, I don`t care if I offend your sorry ass or the charlatan`s.
Zee, you are still a PAINDOO.
Zee,
Yaar, kiss pagal ullu se qismat takraai he :)
Listen, fool - I never intended for ``this guy`` to refer to you. I was referring to Chacha Chaar Sau Bees, to whom the original #385 from rf786 was addressed. Also, I said: ``This guy knows only vocabulary that associated ``Maa di, Payn di`` with anatomical references such as ``bund, phuddi, and lun.``
``KNOWS`` is not the same as ``TALKS.``
I am not trying to fool you, just trying to set the record straight. Personally, I don`t care if I offend your sorry ass or the charlatan`s.
Zee, you are still a PAINDOO.
#401 Posted by abu_safwaan on May 29, 2007 10:42:02 am
Re: # 398
Bhai sahab condemn MQM all you want, but when you ``spread love`` for all UPites that includes me and my family that has nothing but contempt for MQM, however we have no qualms about our heritage and especially you have much more responsibility since you are the dayi of Islam on this website. Saleem, tahmed can afford to sling mud at each other because they are not carrying that flag, you however shouldnt be posting nauseating photographs in retaliation. I am all for putting people in place when they disrespect our Religion and our prophet (PBUH) thats why i am usualyy the first one to remind hamidm and the veggies of their sorry existance but for individuals with whom we have differences of opinion in masail but our aqeedah is the same, we should and must practice caution. Aaap donnoo hazratt jabb ayk doosray kii maan behan karr rahayy hottay hein aapka kya qayall hayy kayy kalay, naheef, badsoorat, badboodar RSS madrasi kaysayy shadyanayy bajatayy hongay. Brayeyy meharbanii let people come from their moral and religious teachings you should struggle to follow yours.
Bhai sahab condemn MQM all you want, but when you ``spread love`` for all UPites that includes me and my family that has nothing but contempt for MQM, however we have no qualms about our heritage and especially you have much more responsibility since you are the dayi of Islam on this website. Saleem, tahmed can afford to sling mud at each other because they are not carrying that flag, you however shouldnt be posting nauseating photographs in retaliation. I am all for putting people in place when they disrespect our Religion and our prophet (PBUH) thats why i am usualyy the first one to remind hamidm and the veggies of their sorry existance but for individuals with whom we have differences of opinion in masail but our aqeedah is the same, we should and must practice caution. Aaap donnoo hazratt jabb ayk doosray kii maan behan karr rahayy hottay hein aapka kya qayall hayy kayy kalay, naheef, badsoorat, badboodar RSS madrasi kaysayy shadyanayy bajatayy hongay. Brayeyy meharbanii let people come from their moral and religious teachings you should struggle to follow yours.
#400 Posted by anil on May 29, 2007 10:35:46 am
Re: # 336
Zeena beti:
Very thoughtful and honest answers. I look forward to reading more of what you write. Hopefully, you will never make my belief that ``God is the imagination of Human Mind`` and issue between us.
Good luck
Zeena beti:
Very thoughtful and honest answers. I look forward to reading more of what you write. Hopefully, you will never make my belief that ``God is the imagination of Human Mind`` and issue between us.
Good luck
#399 Posted by zeemax on May 29, 2007 10:32:17 am
#397 by Salim_Chauhan,
Again, you`re lying! This hindoo 786 was talking about me and not tahmed32. Besides I`ve never heard tahmed32 use such vocabulary either.
You`re indeed a shameless liar and a manipulator for your nefarious agendas .. !!!
Again, you`re lying! This hindoo 786 was talking about me and not tahmed32. Besides I`ve never heard tahmed32 use such vocabulary either.
You`re indeed a shameless liar and a manipulator for your nefarious agendas .. !!!
#398 Posted by zeemax on May 29, 2007 10:28:31 am
#392 by abu_safwaan,
Ok. Point taken. But only because of the last para which is indeed noble.
However, to present my defence, even Khalid Bin Waleed`s ass was hauled in by Abu Bakr when it was reported he had killed Malik bin Nuweir, an apostate who had actually turned Muslim. Blood money was paid out of State Treasury as a compromise after a long debate where Umar was actually in favour of harsh punishment for the commander in chief of his own armies, and whom Muhammad himself had titled as Saif-u-Allah (Sword of God). All that fuss for a `single` apostate who had turned back and unjustly killed.
The point is, the sword of a Muslim cannot unjustly fall on the neck of another Muslim. MQM killed 48 Muslims unjustly on 12 May, therefore my criticism upon their supporters.
Ok. Point taken. But only because of the last para which is indeed noble.
However, to present my defence, even Khalid Bin Waleed`s ass was hauled in by Abu Bakr when it was reported he had killed Malik bin Nuweir, an apostate who had actually turned Muslim. Blood money was paid out of State Treasury as a compromise after a long debate where Umar was actually in favour of harsh punishment for the commander in chief of his own armies, and whom Muhammad himself had titled as Saif-u-Allah (Sword of God). All that fuss for a `single` apostate who had turned back and unjustly killed.
The point is, the sword of a Muslim cannot unjustly fall on the neck of another Muslim. MQM killed 48 Muslims unjustly on 12 May, therefore my criticism upon their supporters.
#397 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on May 29, 2007 10:26:19 am
#393 Zeemax {``ahmed is right. You`re a shameless liar. I have never used the vocabulary you are attributing to me i.e. :
>i>This guy knows only vocabulary that associated ``Maa di, Payn di`` with anatomical references such as ``bund, phuddi, and lun.``
Show me a single post even on UP where I have used this language. On the contrary it is you people who use it quite liberally ... !``}
Paindoo,
Relax! Cool Down. My #388 was referring to rf786`s #385,l which was in response to Chacha Chaar Sau Bees` #381. ``This guy`` I was referring to is Chacha Chaar Sau Bees.
And they wonder why we call them PAINDOO? :)
>i>This guy knows only vocabulary that associated ``Maa di, Payn di`` with anatomical references such as ``bund, phuddi, and lun.``
Show me a single post even on UP where I have used this language. On the contrary it is you people who use it quite liberally ... !``}
Paindoo,
Relax! Cool Down. My #388 was referring to rf786`s #385,l which was in response to Chacha Chaar Sau Bees` #381. ``This guy`` I was referring to is Chacha Chaar Sau Bees.
And they wonder why we call them PAINDOO? :)
#396 Posted by zeemax on May 29, 2007 10:00:28 am
#391 by aquaris,
No doubt aquaris. You`re right. It is a fact that when the trains full of Urdu-Speaking Mohajirs were arriving at Lahore, Punjabis were there standing with picks and shovels and telling them ``Aggey jao ... Pakistan aggey hai``. Sindhis not only did no such thing, but rather gave them their prime port city... all in the name of Pakistan.
But I blame the Sindhi feudal leadership for always being involved in deal-making and letting things come to the head that they have, where Sindhis are not even a part of the equation in the conflict, nor a leg of the stool on which the solution rests. It is Sindhis` land, but everyone else but Sindhis are the major pieces on the chessboard.
No doubt aquaris. You`re right. It is a fact that when the trains full of Urdu-Speaking Mohajirs were arriving at Lahore, Punjabis were there standing with picks and shovels and telling them ``Aggey jao ... Pakistan aggey hai``. Sindhis not only did no such thing, but rather gave them their prime port city... all in the name of Pakistan.
But I blame the Sindhi feudal leadership for always being involved in deal-making and letting things come to the head that they have, where Sindhis are not even a part of the equation in the conflict, nor a leg of the stool on which the solution rests. It is Sindhis` land, but everyone else but Sindhis are the major pieces on the chessboard.
#395 Posted by aquaris on May 29, 2007 9:52:59 am
Suspended CJ accuses Musharraf in new affidavit
The high-profile case of Pakistan`s suspended Chief Justice took a dramatic turn on Tuesday after the jurist accused President Pervez Musharraf, Premier Shaukat Aziz and chiefs of intelligence agencies of physically restraining him from leaving the Presidential office for over five hours on March 9 when he declined to resign.
As arguments on suspended judge Iftikhar M Chaudhry`s petition questioning the Presidential reference accusing him of misconduct and misuse of authority drew to a close after two weeks of hearing, the jurist sprang a surprise by filing an affidavit alleging that he was confined for over five hours at Musharraf`s camp office in Rawalpindi during which he was pressured to quit.
The petition is being heard by a 13-member full bench of the Pakistan Supreme Court.
Giving for the first time his side of the account of the day of his suspension, Chaudhry said he was ``grilled`` for over five hours by Musharraf, Aziz and Director Generals of ISI, Military Intelligence (MI) and Intelligence Bureau (IB) and was physically restrained from leaving the Army house in Rawalpindi, which is the President`s temporary office.
Chaudhry`s affidavit was filed by his lead counsel, Aitezaz Ahesan, after he concluded his arguments on the judge`s main petition before the bench challenging the Presidential reference.
The new allegations are expected to trigger a fresh furore against the Musharraf regime as the lawyers` organisations and opposition parties have mounted a biggest-ever offensive against the military-backed government for ill-treating the Chief Justice.
In his affidavit, Chaudhry claimed Musharraf insisted that he should resign. Musharraf also said that in case of his resignation, he would ``accommodate`` him.
Musharraf also said in case of his refusal to resign, Chaudhry will have to face the reference, ``which could be a bigger embarrassment`` for the suspended judge, the jurist alleged.
Chaudhry ``finally and more resolutely said `I wouldn`t resign and would face any reference since I am innocent; I have not violated any code of conduct or any law, rule or regulation; I believe that I am myself the guardian of law. I strongly believe in God who will help me`
``This ignited the fury`` of Musharraf who ``stood up angrily and left the room along with his MS (Military Secretary), COS (Chief of Staff) and the Prime Minister of Pakistan, saying that others would show evidence`` to him, Chaudhry`s affidavit said.
Chaudhry alleged that he was ``illegally and unlawfully restrained from performing his constitutional functions as a judge of this Honourable Court and as Chief Justice of Pakistan`` and sent on compulsory leave by Musharraf for his refusal to resign.
He also gave graphic details of what happened to him when he went to see Musharraf on March 9 and the subsequent events during which he was allegedly confined to his house, manhandled by police when he along with his wife tried to walk to the apex court to attend a hearing by the Supreme Judicial Council (SJC).
Chaudhry said on March 9 he went to meet Musharraf after disposing of cases in the court. His petition, however, was silent whether he went to see the President on his own or was summoned. Musharraf has already said Chaudhry came to see him on his own.
After five minutes of Chaudhry`s arrival at the President`s camp office, Musharraf ``wearing his Military Uniform came into the room along with his MS and ADC,`` the affidavit said. As soon as the military ruler took his seat, ``a number of TV cameramen and photographers were also ushered into the room. They took several pictures and made movie footage.``
It said initially the discussions focussed on SAARC Law Conference, SAARC Chief Justices` meet in Karachi, which was subsequently cancelled, and the concluding session of the Golden Jubilee ceremony of the Supreme Court.
After that Musharraf said a complaint against Chaudhry had been received by him from a Judge of Peshawar High Court.
``Chaudhry replied that it was not based on true facts as his case had been decided by a two-member bench and that attempts were being made to maliciously involve the other member of the Bench as well,`` according to the affidavit. On this, Musharraf said there were a few more complaints against Chaudhry as well. ``After saying so, he directed his staff to call the other persons.``
On the direction of Musharraf, ``the `other persons` entered the room. They included the Prime Minster, DG MI, DG ISI, DG IB, COS and another official. All officials (except DG, IB and COS) were in uniform,`` Chaudhry`s petition said.
Musharraf ``started reading from small pieces of paper with notes on them which he had in his hand. There was no single consolidated document. The allegations which were being put ... had been taken from the contents of a notorious letter written by Naeem Bukhari with absolutely no substance in them.``
Bukhari, a lawyer and journalist wrote the letter to Chaudhry before March 9 making several allegations and challenged him to prosecute him under contempt of court but Chaudhry said he ignored it.
Chaudhry refuted the charges as ``being baseless and engineered to defame him personally and the judiciary as a whole,`` the affidavit said, adding he ``promptly denied the veracity and credibility of these allegations as well.``
After this, the petition said Musharraf accused him of obtaining cars, including a Mercedes, from the Supreme Court for his family which Chaudhry said he vehemently denied.
Then Musharraf charged him with interfering in the affairs of the Lahore High Court and not heeding to most of its recommendations.
The meeting continued for not more than 30 minutes.
After Musharraf left, ``The DG MI, DG ISI and DG IB remained behind and continued to sit with`` Chaudhry, the affidavit said, adding they did not show the judge a single piece of evidence. ``In fact, no official except DG ISI had some documents with him but he also did not show anything.``
During the hearing on Tuesday, Ahsan alleged in the apex court today that Musharraf held ``personal malice`` against Chaudhry and wanted him removed from office.
He charged that Musharraf wanted to ``humble, humiliate and subjugate`` the top jurist.
Musharraf`s prime concern was not properly investigating the charges against Chaudhry, ``but just to remove the Chief Justice from his office,`` Ahsan claimed. ``This is the personal malice I`m alleging.... The malice is of the President.``
He said he would provide evidence of ``malice`` later in his arguments.
``If the President had acted constitutionally, he should have been a post office,`` Ahsan said, meaning it was Musharraf`s role to merely convey information.
The high-profile case of Pakistan`s suspended Chief Justice took a dramatic turn on Tuesday after the jurist accused President Pervez Musharraf, Premier Shaukat Aziz and chiefs of intelligence agencies of physically restraining him from leaving the Presidential office for over five hours on March 9 when he declined to resign.
As arguments on suspended judge Iftikhar M Chaudhry`s petition questioning the Presidential reference accusing him of misconduct and misuse of authority drew to a close after two weeks of hearing, the jurist sprang a surprise by filing an affidavit alleging that he was confined for over five hours at Musharraf`s camp office in Rawalpindi during which he was pressured to quit.
The petition is being heard by a 13-member full bench of the Pakistan Supreme Court.
Giving for the first time his side of the account of the day of his suspension, Chaudhry said he was ``grilled`` for over five hours by Musharraf, Aziz and Director Generals of ISI, Military Intelligence (MI) and Intelligence Bureau (IB) and was physically restrained from leaving the Army house in Rawalpindi, which is the President`s temporary office.
Chaudhry`s affidavit was filed by his lead counsel, Aitezaz Ahesan, after he concluded his arguments on the judge`s main petition before the bench challenging the Presidential reference.
The new allegations are expected to trigger a fresh furore against the Musharraf regime as the lawyers` organisations and opposition parties have mounted a biggest-ever offensive against the military-backed government for ill-treating the Chief Justice.
In his affidavit, Chaudhry claimed Musharraf insisted that he should resign. Musharraf also said that in case of his resignation, he would ``accommodate`` him.
Musharraf also said in case of his refusal to resign, Chaudhry will have to face the reference, ``which could be a bigger embarrassment`` for the suspended judge, the jurist alleged.
Chaudhry ``finally and more resolutely said `I wouldn`t resign and would face any reference since I am innocent; I have not violated any code of conduct or any law, rule or regulation; I believe that I am myself the guardian of law. I strongly believe in God who will help me`
``This ignited the fury`` of Musharraf who ``stood up angrily and left the room along with his MS (Military Secretary), COS (Chief of Staff) and the Prime Minister of Pakistan, saying that others would show evidence`` to him, Chaudhry`s affidavit said.
Chaudhry alleged that he was ``illegally and unlawfully restrained from performing his constitutional functions as a judge of this Honourable Court and as Chief Justice of Pakistan`` and sent on compulsory leave by Musharraf for his refusal to resign.
He also gave graphic details of what happened to him when he went to see Musharraf on March 9 and the subsequent events during which he was allegedly confined to his house, manhandled by police when he along with his wife tried to walk to the apex court to attend a hearing by the Supreme Judicial Council (SJC).
Chaudhry said on March 9 he went to meet Musharraf after disposing of cases in the court. His petition, however, was silent whether he went to see the President on his own or was summoned. Musharraf has already said Chaudhry came to see him on his own.
After five minutes of Chaudhry`s arrival at the President`s camp office, Musharraf ``wearing his Military Uniform came into the room along with his MS and ADC,`` the affidavit said. As soon as the military ruler took his seat, ``a number of TV cameramen and photographers were also ushered into the room. They took several pictures and made movie footage.``
It said initially the discussions focussed on SAARC Law Conference, SAARC Chief Justices` meet in Karachi, which was subsequently cancelled, and the concluding session of the Golden Jubilee ceremony of the Supreme Court.
After that Musharraf said a complaint against Chaudhry had been received by him from a Judge of Peshawar High Court.
``Chaudhry replied that it was not based on true facts as his case had been decided by a two-member bench and that attempts were being made to maliciously involve the other member of the Bench as well,`` according to the affidavit. On this, Musharraf said there were a few more complaints against Chaudhry as well. ``After saying so, he directed his staff to call the other persons.``
On the direction of Musharraf, ``the `other persons` entered the room. They included the Prime Minster, DG MI, DG ISI, DG IB, COS and another official. All officials (except DG, IB and COS) were in uniform,`` Chaudhry`s petition said.
Musharraf ``started reading from small pieces of paper with notes on them which he had in his hand. There was no single consolidated document. The allegations which were being put ... had been taken from the contents of a notorious letter written by Naeem Bukhari with absolutely no substance in them.``
Bukhari, a lawyer and journalist wrote the letter to Chaudhry before March 9 making several allegations and challenged him to prosecute him under contempt of court but Chaudhry said he ignored it.
Chaudhry refuted the charges as ``being baseless and engineered to defame him personally and the judiciary as a whole,`` the affidavit said, adding he ``promptly denied the veracity and credibility of these allegations as well.``
After this, the petition said Musharraf accused him of obtaining cars, including a Mercedes, from the Supreme Court for his family which Chaudhry said he vehemently denied.
Then Musharraf charged him with interfering in the affairs of the Lahore High Court and not heeding to most of its recommendations.
The meeting continued for not more than 30 minutes.
After Musharraf left, ``The DG MI, DG ISI and DG IB remained behind and continued to sit with`` Chaudhry, the affidavit said, adding they did not show the judge a single piece of evidence. ``In fact, no official except DG ISI had some documents with him but he also did not show anything.``
During the hearing on Tuesday, Ahsan alleged in the apex court today that Musharraf held ``personal malice`` against Chaudhry and wanted him removed from office.
He charged that Musharraf wanted to ``humble, humiliate and subjugate`` the top jurist.
Musharraf`s prime concern was not properly investigating the charges against Chaudhry, ``but just to remove the Chief Justice from his office,`` Ahsan claimed. ``This is the personal malice I`m alleging.... The malice is of the President.``
He said he would provide evidence of ``malice`` later in his arguments.
``If the President had acted constitutionally, he should have been a post office,`` Ahsan said, meaning it was Musharraf`s role to merely convey information.
#394 Posted by Folio on May 29, 2007 9:51:28 am
......it`s one step forward but 2 steps backward 4 MQM.
#393 Posted by zeemax on May 29, 2007 9:49:36 am
#388 by Salim_Chauhan,
tahmed is right. You`re a shameless liar. I have never used the vocabulary you are attributing to me i.e. :
>i>This guy knows only vocabulary that associated ``Maa di, Payn di`` with anatomical references such as ``bund, phuddi, and lun.``
Show me a single post even on UP where I have used this language. On the contrary it is you people who use it quite liberally ... !
tahmed is right. You`re a shameless liar. I have never used the vocabulary you are attributing to me i.e. :
>i>This guy knows only vocabulary that associated ``Maa di, Payn di`` with anatomical references such as ``bund, phuddi, and lun.``
Show me a single post even on UP where I have used this language. On the contrary it is you people who use it quite liberally ... !
#392 Posted by abu_safwaan on May 29, 2007 9:47:04 am
Aap tamam Ashab ka masla yeah hayy kay harr aadmii apnii lobby ka mauqaff istadlal sayy dohrata rehta hayy, Allah kayy bandoon kabhii dimag khulla rakh karr taasub ka chashma uttarr karr haq bhii kaha karoo.
Baatt kya horahii thii naqshbandii koo moqqa milla unhoon nayy kaha acha moqaa hayy Wahabiyoon koo latarr doo, hazratt yahan mauzoo-e-guftugoo thaa whabiyatt kii abtarii or barelwiyatt ka turahe-imtiaz? Can you be any pettier?
Zeemax you do more harm to the cause of Islam for the audience of this site when you speak from both side of your mouth. How can someone with an understanding of Islam can utter such vile and filth for another Muslim just so he can pander to his pind`s political shortsightedness. UP wallaoon kayy barayy mein phool jharnayy sayy pehlayy, apnayy girayban mein jhank liya karein, kaysayy kaysayy lala-0-gul aapkayy soobayy nayy iss mulk to nawazayy hein jiskii badulat hamm iss izzat-afza muqam parr dunya kayy samnayy kharayy hein.
Yarr saleem Bhai koii khuda kaa naam layta hayy banda. Bhai ajeeb ibham ka shikarr hoo aap. Pehlay yeah faysla karoo kayy aapp logg chahtayy kya hoo, poori qaum ayk ajeeb maqmasayy ka shikar hay. Kya hamara mustaqbil Pakistan kayy saath hayy? Yeahh ham mein itna tappar hayy orr uskayy saath kya waqaii khi, hyderabad ki aksaryat apna mustaqbil pakistan sayy alag karnayy kii rawadarr bhii hay? Mayra qayal hayy kayy in donoo sawaloon ka jawab nafii mein hay. Hamein bahysiyat-e-qaum jamhoriyat pasandoon kayy haath mazboot karnayy chahyein. Khudara yeah bibi or mian kay chakkarr sayy niklein, ham apnayy shehroon mein aksaryat hein, hamein jamhoriyat raas aatii hayy. Mulk mein hawa daykhein kiss taraf kii chall rahii hayy. Hamein jamhoriyaatt suit kartii hay, yanii kayy kiss qadarr jahalatt or beygheyrati kii baatt hayy kayy jiss fauj kayy haathh abb tak rangeen hein hamari galiyoon mein behnayy walay qoon sayy, woh fauj joo zara barabar qayall nahii karayy gii phirr wohii barbariyat dohranayy mein, aapp ussii fauj kayy haath mazboot kar rahay hein? ussii fauj kay saath hambistarii karnayy parr na sirf yeah kayy muzir hein balkayy ``shah sayy barh karr shah kayy wafadar`` mexican auratoon kii tarahh barh charh karr brawl mein apnayy ``man`` kaa diffa bhii kar rahayy hein? Kuch aqal kayy naqun lijyayy hazrat. Aaap yaqqeen janiyayy MQM ko iss daffah vote sirf or sirf mustafa kamal ki wajjah sayy parnayy wala hay, mayra shehar bohat vibrant hayy yeah sheikhupura ka koii gaoon nahii hayy naa hii MQM hamarii chaudhryy hay, jiss izzat sayy sar parr bithaya thaa, doodh mein makhii kii tarah sayy nikal bahar kiya jayega MQM ko khi ki siyasat say apnay vote ki taqat say agar MQM nay apna jabirana rawwaya nahii badla.
Baatt kya horahii thii naqshbandii koo moqqa milla unhoon nayy kaha acha moqaa hayy Wahabiyoon koo latarr doo, hazratt yahan mauzoo-e-guftugoo thaa whabiyatt kii abtarii or barelwiyatt ka turahe-imtiaz? Can you be any pettier?
Zeemax you do more harm to the cause of Islam for the audience of this site when you speak from both side of your mouth. How can someone with an understanding of Islam can utter such vile and filth for another Muslim just so he can pander to his pind`s political shortsightedness. UP wallaoon kayy barayy mein phool jharnayy sayy pehlayy, apnayy girayban mein jhank liya karein, kaysayy kaysayy lala-0-gul aapkayy soobayy nayy iss mulk to nawazayy hein jiskii badulat hamm iss izzat-afza muqam parr dunya kayy samnayy kharayy hein.
Yarr saleem Bhai koii khuda kaa naam layta hayy banda. Bhai ajeeb ibham ka shikarr hoo aap. Pehlay yeah faysla karoo kayy aapp logg chahtayy kya hoo, poori qaum ayk ajeeb maqmasayy ka shikar hay. Kya hamara mustaqbil Pakistan kayy saath hayy? Yeahh ham mein itna tappar hayy orr uskayy saath kya waqaii khi, hyderabad ki aksaryat apna mustaqbil pakistan sayy alag karnayy kii rawadarr bhii hay? Mayra qayal hayy kayy in donoo sawaloon ka jawab nafii mein hay. Hamein bahysiyat-e-qaum jamhoriyat pasandoon kayy haath mazboot karnayy chahyein. Khudara yeah bibi or mian kay chakkarr sayy niklein, ham apnayy shehroon mein aksaryat hein, hamein jamhoriyat raas aatii hayy. Mulk mein hawa daykhein kiss taraf kii chall rahii hayy. Hamein jamhoriyaatt suit kartii hay, yanii kayy kiss qadarr jahalatt or beygheyrati kii baatt hayy kayy jiss fauj kayy haathh abb tak rangeen hein hamari galiyoon mein behnayy walay qoon sayy, woh fauj joo zara barabar qayall nahii karayy gii phirr wohii barbariyat dohranayy mein, aapp ussii fauj kayy haath mazboot kar rahay hein? ussii fauj kay saath hambistarii karnayy parr na sirf yeah kayy muzir hein balkayy ``shah sayy barh karr shah kayy wafadar`` mexican auratoon kii tarahh barh charh karr brawl mein apnayy ``man`` kaa diffa bhii kar rahayy hein? Kuch aqal kayy naqun lijyayy hazrat. Aaap yaqqeen janiyayy MQM ko iss daffah vote sirf or sirf mustafa kamal ki wajjah sayy parnayy wala hay, mayra shehar bohat vibrant hayy yeah sheikhupura ka koii gaoon nahii hayy naa hii MQM hamarii chaudhryy hay, jiss izzat sayy sar parr bithaya thaa, doodh mein makhii kii tarah sayy nikal bahar kiya jayega MQM ko khi ki siyasat say apnay vote ki taqat say agar MQM nay apna jabirana rawwaya nahii badla.
#391 Posted by aquaris on May 29, 2007 9:46:53 am
Can`t help it.
But Sindh Kissee kay Bap ki jageer naheen hey.
Na hi kissi ki Maan ko Jaheez meen Milla thaa.
47 meen Sir akhoon per bithaya tha....to 2007 meen uska difa Bhi ker sektey heen...
#390 Posted by zeemax on May 29, 2007 9:45:20 am
tahmed32,
But give thought to my suggestion to become a spokesman for mqm.
I would much rather become a spokesman for the MQM `bajis` whom I heard were in regular supply to Pir Sahib every night for his blessings when he was here ... dunno about now ... :)
But give thought to my suggestion to become a spokesman for mqm.
I would much rather become a spokesman for the MQM `bajis` whom I heard were in regular supply to Pir Sahib every night for his blessings when he was here ... dunno about now ... :)
#389 Posted by Folio on May 29, 2007 9:45:05 am
#342 by rf786 on May 29, 2007 1:43am PT
Thanks 4 the elaborate post explaining various issues in Pakistan. The details on the birth of MQM are new to me (hither to unknown).
I dont blame u agin 4 pointing out Zia 4 this mess.
What`s the way out????????? That`s the trillion Rupee question.
Sometimes I feel that this argumenst cyclical.
Aasif,
I know u are a pleasant liberal but not `that` liberal.
I can see the diff btw u and zeemax. He wants them to be beheaded but u want them let go. My view is that as a society we shud no way condone the act nor punish them by death. I dont know how to put it but I dont apporve of such relations.
Saleem,
Confrontation and conflict rocks the very boat called Pakistan. There`s a middle way i.e peace. Even if we take MQM as a ruling party, they need a willing constuency even if they are Punjabi. If Punjabis are incorrigible, then it`s a different case.
Like it or not, it one step forward but 2 steps backward 4 MQM. As a ruling party MQM ought to be more responsible in articulating abt the violence perpetrated by PPP and ANP. If a dog bites us we cant bite it back. That`s the major diff btw a law breaker and a law upholder. By resorting to violence, MQM joined the ranks of the law breakers.
Thanks 4 the elaborate post explaining various issues in Pakistan. The details on the birth of MQM are new to me (hither to unknown).
I dont blame u agin 4 pointing out Zia 4 this mess.
What`s the way out????????? That`s the trillion Rupee question.
Sometimes I feel that this argumenst cyclical.
Aasif,
I know u are a pleasant liberal but not `that` liberal.
I can see the diff btw u and zeemax. He wants them to be beheaded but u want them let go. My view is that as a society we shud no way condone the act nor punish them by death. I dont know how to put it but I dont apporve of such relations.
Saleem,
Confrontation and conflict rocks the very boat called Pakistan. There`s a middle way i.e peace. Even if we take MQM as a ruling party, they need a willing constuency even if they are Punjabi. If Punjabis are incorrigible, then it`s a different case.
Like it or not, it one step forward but 2 steps backward 4 MQM. As a ruling party MQM ought to be more responsible in articulating abt the violence perpetrated by PPP and ANP. If a dog bites us we cant bite it back. That`s the major diff btw a law breaker and a law upholder. By resorting to violence, MQM joined the ranks of the law breakers.
#388 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on May 29, 2007 9:43:10 am
#385 rf786 {``Aray Qibla, Jehan Punnah, iss khadim pey koee reham farmain, koi aur saza farmain, u can burn us in oil, skin us alive, make us live with BB or push us in the Arabian sea...but please please, we beseech u, do not send pee-max over to Karachi. ``}
Bismillah Bhai,
LOL!
But, please conserve this elevated Urdu for ahl-e-zabaaN. This guy knows only vocabulary that associated ``Maa di, Payn di`` with anatomical references such as ``bund, phuddi, and lun.``
It`s useless to teach a pig how to sing - he won`t learn and may even get annoyed at you. :)
Bismillah Bhai,
LOL!
But, please conserve this elevated Urdu for ahl-e-zabaaN. This guy knows only vocabulary that associated ``Maa di, Payn di`` with anatomical references such as ``bund, phuddi, and lun.``
It`s useless to teach a pig how to sing - he won`t learn and may even get annoyed at you. :)
#386 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on May 29, 2007 9:39:02 am
#384 HP, {``Sindh is not India that it can be divided by these morons. It was easy for you to give up India for division, it is not going to happen in Sindh. These morons if they so desire should be given lands in UP and the area should be called ``Twice mohajirstan``! ``}
HP Laser SaeeN,
Once again your toner is running low and you seem to be out of paper. Please watch what and how much you eat. :)
HP Laser SaeeN,
Once again your toner is running low and you seem to be out of paper. Please watch what and how much you eat. :)
#385 Posted by rf786 on May 29, 2007 9:37:17 am
Re: # 381
{But give thought to my suggestion to become a spokesman for mqm. That is the worst thing you could do for mqm and the best thing you could do for the pro-democracy movement in Pakistan.}
Aray Qibla, Jehan Punnah, iss khadim pey koee reham farmain, koi aur saza farmain, u can burn us in oil, skin us alive, make us live with BB or push us in the Arabian sea...but please please, we beseech u, do not send pee-max over to Karachi.
{But give thought to my suggestion to become a spokesman for mqm. That is the worst thing you could do for mqm and the best thing you could do for the pro-democracy movement in Pakistan.}
Aray Qibla, Jehan Punnah, iss khadim pey koee reham farmain, koi aur saza farmain, u can burn us in oil, skin us alive, make us live with BB or push us in the Arabian sea...but please please, we beseech u, do not send pee-max over to Karachi.