The General vs. the Judge

hamidm..i am just a normal run of the mill sinful sunni muslim of the barelvi bent...i dont support incest morally as wahabi-max seems to imply but i dont think in a secular country the state has the right to tell people who to sleep with.

the genetic problems which would result from such unions could be used to dissuade people but i dont think peresecuting them for what is a private matter is anyones business. as for whisky and alcohol again i wouldnt normally but it doesnt mean that if others want to i would stop them.

i think that the kind of totalitarian state which islamists envisage has more in common with east germany or the USSR than any islamic state that has actually existed in reality. this is evident in islamic lit where though alcohol is criticised from religious POV i have not read accounts of police breaking shops selling it or it being banned.

see i have come round to the point of view that islamist wahabis and their henchmen make a virtue out of necessity. if you dont drink because you are scared of 50 lashes that is not being virtuous; if you have alcohol available but choose not to drink due to respect of God´s commandment if you are a muslim that is real piety.

which is why i believe places like the EU are much more islamic than any islamist state could ever be.

#427 by zeemax {``Do you want Punjabis to support you in shipping to Pakistan hundreds of thousands of your potential cadres ripe for MQM indoctrination for making Jinnahpur? You must be joking``}

Zee Sahib,
Sometimes, in order to do the right thing, we have to go against traditional alliances, personal preferences, and our own viewpoints. In the case of the Hifsa Jamia girls, I focused very narrowly on their right to take citizens` actions against an illegal activity - AFTER they had approached law enforcement people for resolution. I did not let my secular viewpoint, disdain for right-wing fundo fantatics, or support for legalized prostitution affect my thinking. Despite political common sense, and much to the chagrin of Hamidum2 Sahib and others, I ended up supporting their action. That is what I mean about doing the right thing. Unfortunately, you are so caught up in the Punjabi vs Mohajir hatred that you cannot understand human suffering, the cruel injustice, and the damaging effects of this policy on Pakistan. May Allah open your eyes.

#430 by zeemax on May 30, 2007 10:38am PT

{``I think all doubts should be removed by now with Beena Sarwar`s article in agonizing detail.
I really feel you should retract your statements, and condemn MQM and Musharraf for what they did. Its really no use denying. This nation can still forgive even though scars will remain.``}

Zeemax Sahib,
Beena`s account is rather one-sided and very opinionated. I detest ALL murderers and violence, but there should be some degree of fairness, proportionality, and balance in reporting events. Please see my embellishments to her article in that forum.

My tolerance of Musharraf is based solely on survival for Urdu-speaking Mohajirs. To his credit, he put an end to the carnage carried on in Karachi/Hyderabad by the Punjabi Rangers as directed by Bezamir and Besharif. I prefer democracy, but not a return to state terrorism of the early 90s. There was never any need for MQM and none existed from 1947 through 1986. It was merely a reaction to the decades of oppression, suppression, and injustice inflicted upon Urdu-speaking people, who were notorious for being meek, peaceful, and afraid of violence.

#429 by Salim_Chauhan,

I think all doubts should be removed by now with Beena Sarwar`s article in agonizing detail.

I really feel you should retract your statements, and condemn MQM and Musharraf for what they did. Its really no use denying. This nation can still forgive even though scars will remain.

#426 Zeemax {``Salim Bhai,
Re the stranded `Pakistanis` issue, do you really believe any Pakistani will support you when your convictions are as follows?
With or Without Musharraf – A Mohajir’s Perspective : Salim Chauhan, April 11, 2007. ``}

Zee Sahib,
Don`t do the right thing merely to support me. I was born in 1980, but these poor, unfortunate Pakistani Muslims have been suffering in Bangladesh since 1971 - long before my viewpoints were formed, revised, or stated. In fact, I used to be an avid Paki nationalist. I have even posted here as ``Barachota,`` when I first joined Chowk in 2004. My compassion for these people is based on my sense of humanity and decency. It may have affected how I feel about Pakistan now - a country that despises me and my kind. :(

Re: # 429

Salim Chauhan for the 1st time you have spoken as a sane person instead of yapping in the way your scum cousins talk here (i.e. in the Matrabhumi Bharat Maa).

Let us accept what you have said is true and in toality that the state hates you and your kind. Fine so you owe no fealty to the state that is also fine but pray please answer aquarius`s questions he raised about the Muhajirs via the links in your previous article.

Forget everything yes let us accpet fine what you have said about the Punjoos should be treated with the same truth as the Vedas and the Gita but what about your types treatment of the Sindhis the Hindus from 1947 to 1952 and of the Muslims 52 onwards.

Your scum cousins want reservation in India (they wanted it in every state in the undivided Matrabhumi pre independence) and in Pakistan you talk of merit?

Na farmaani ki koi had he kya aur dogula pan ki?

Answer this where can you stay in Peace in Aligarh no in Mau no in Amroha no in Budayun no in Lucknow no (here you fight as Shia Sunni) in Bihar Sharif no in Karachi no in Hyderabad no abe hurrami kahin to aman se reh sakte ho ki nahin.

Ab bol ek paindoo descendant of ex West Punjabi bak raha he, dekho paindoo apna paindoo pana nahin chorte sarhad par kar ke.

Tum aur tumhari jaat wale sach na dekh sakte ho na bol sakte ho? Kanjarpana tumhari ragoon mein hai aur tum kanjar he rahoge.

Heres a toast to your wet dream of Jinnahpur wahan Pisser a Zameen tumhe kootenge aur yahan tumhari baki babar ke aulad ko hum?

Send scum Urdu muslims to kabristan.

Zee bhaiya kyon aap logon ne churiyan pehni hai kya.

And brothers believe me the post Godhra Carnage was not wrong this is the language these people understand.

Regards
Sanatani

Re: # 438

Abbay hindooo badboodaar kamzoor laghar subziyoon ki paydawar, jaa apnii maan koo jala jakayy, banyayy. Abbay baysharmoon itnii aksaryatt kayy bawajood ayk dawood ibraheem ka naam sunkar tumhayy dustt lag jatayy hein? Orr baat kartayy hoo godhra ki? Mooli kii nasal wohh too goorayy aakarr azadd kara gayeyy werna tumharay nunnay munayy kanchayy kahan bardasht karsaktayy thay gaoo mata khanayy wallon ka qehar? Kuch sharamm kiya karoo monnhh kholnayy sayy pehlayy moot say zyada badboodar. Kabhii aaj takk muslamanoo sayy panga layna kii auqatt hoi hayy itnii aksaryatt kayy bawajood manhoos-un-nasal khatri? Itnayy jootayy maray gaa aakarr chootta shakeel kay apnii amman kii kaalii chatiyoon meinn soo joo keecharr choosa tha sabbb ugal dogay. Abayy baygheyrat siwayeyy apnii ammaoon koo nachanayy kay orr motel chalanayy kay allawa koii mardana kaam kiya hayy aaj takk? Dua do rajpootoon or sikhoon koo joo tumharii sabzi qoorr naheef ajsam ki hifazat parr mamoor hein werna abb tak musalmanonn kayy paad kii badboo sayy seham karr marchukkayy hottayy, jahil-e-mutlaq salay.

Re: # 438

One sick MOFO!! Pee-Max and u deserve each other, High Octane Hate (HOH). Go FCK yourself, cause thats the only language your type understand.

tahmed writes <<< Democracy is the only way to go for Pakistan. Military rule has brought it nothing but fascism in one form or another >>>

Tahmed talks the talk, just like the US elite, regarding democracy but when the time comes to walk the walk these hypocrites support all the military dictators as they know that the only way for them to pursue their perverse policies is through dictators. Tahmed says not a word about the US role in the shape the Pak Army assumed due its relationship with it, neither about how this military and its dictators have been blessed and supported and helped by the US elite as they fulfill their perverse motives in the region, Ayub, Zia and Musharraf have all been darlings of the US elite at one time or the other; US policy in Latin America and the Middle East region reveals similar ``walking the walk`` with dictators while talking the ``democracy`` talk. Hypocrites are like snakes, their posts are deceitful yet poisionous, wrapped up in beautiful words, yet designed to kill and maim....You don`t fool me tahmed. You are the worst among humanity, one that suppots colonization and the enslavement of humankind, supported the US barbaric war on Iraq, and was acting as an apologist for the Atlantic Slave Trade of his Anglo Saxon masters. Your kind need to be dragged through the streets of every country your masters have harmed, for were it not for AHs like you they could never have dominated us in the way that they did...

#426 by Salim_Chauhan,

Salim Bhai,

Re the stranded `Pakistanis` issue, do you really believe any Pakistani will support you when your convictions are as follows?

With or Without Musharraf – A Mohajir’s Perspective : Salim Chauhan, April 11, 2007.

Quote:``Whether we stay in Pakistan, go it alone, or confederate with like-minded freedom loving Sindhis or Baluchis, there are many steps we can take in the interim. ... We can look to Singapore as a model for our evolution.`` Unquote.

Do you want Punjabis to support you in shipping to Pakistan hundreds of thousands of your potential cadres ripe for MQM indoctrination for making Jinnahpur? You must be joking.

I think you owe Pakistanis an explanation.

#416 Tahmed32 {``SalimChauhan: My ``compassion`` or lack thereof on the ``stranded pakistani`` issue does not matter one bit in real life, since Pakistan government policies are not set based on what some chowk poster writes. And by the same token, my views send a ``strong message`` to no one, and in fact you are the only chowk poster who has been brought this up.

And to repeat myself, I think I am merely stating the obvious that mqm`s violence and making of ethnic issues in the 1980`s reduced sympathies for the ``stranded pakistanis`` among many people.

... If there has been no backlash against mohajirs in Lahore after the slaughter of May 12, it is not because of fear of mqm - rather it is because there is zero concern of mqm on the part of anyone other than those unfortunate enough to be living in karachi/hyderabad. ``}


Dear Mr. Tahmed32:

I appreciate your detailed response and your attempt to justify the continued ``stranding`` of Pakistanis in Bangladesh. Bismillah Bhai (rf786) has already provided an eloquent and fact-based response to each of your points. I am sure that his response is far more effective and convincing than anything that I could offer.

Please allow me to disagree with you again on the issue of ``stranded`` Pakistanis in Bangladesh - those whom you easily and nonchalantly dismiss as ``Biharis.`` Sir, you cannot use the violence of the 1980s to justify their inexplicable suffering and their continued ``stranding`` which started in 1971. From 1971 to 1986 there was no MQM, no so-called Urdu-speaking ghoondas, and no May 12 ``carnage.`` How dare you use today`s conditions to justify an illegal and shameless act of the Government of Pakistan from the early 70s? This attempt is as ridiculous as someone saying that the massacre of half a million Punjabi Muslims in East Punjab during 1947 was justified because these Punjabis would have added to the numbers of those Punjabis who committed atrocities in East Pakistan in 1971, Karachi in 1989 and the early 90`s, and now Baluchistan, NWFP, and AK.

You establish a viewpoint and then proclaim that the Government of Pakistan does not react to such opinions. Excuse me, but sir, you might represent the majority view of the Pisser-e-Zameen or Sons of the Soil. Of course, this same viewpoint of yours (multiplied by millions of Punjabis and Sindhis) results in extreme pressure on the GoP and, consequently hundreds of thousands of loyal and long-suffering Pakistani Muslims continue to suffer in Bangladesh. Obviously you have no compassion for the thousands of young women forced to prostitute themselves to feed their families. As a Muslim, you don`t even feel the anguish of poor Pakistanis forced to convert to Christianity to obtain much-needed aid from missionaries. You don`t even care about the impact this continued injustice has on the reputation of Pakistan, the value of Pakistani citizenship, and the demoralizing effect this has on the otherwise loyal and proud Urdu-speaking Pakistanis.

Mr. Tahmed, many Pakistani Punjabis have ridiculed me as a ``Bihari,`` and Chowkies such as Atif2, Ali1, Zeemax, Ally, and many others have heaped on racial, ethnic, and abusive insults (Muttarwas, Paan-chewing Biharis, HindustaaNRa, Panahguzeer, etc...). I can dismiss this nonsense as typical Paindoo rhetoric, but your viewpoint is much more insidious, much more pernicious, and far more sinister in its effects. Let me reassure you that I am NOT a Bihari, I have no Bihari relatives, and I don`t know anyone who is ``stranded`` in Bangladesh. But then, I didn`t know any of the earthquake victims or survivors, but my wife and I did our best to collect and dispatch supplies and food for those unfortunate Pakistanis. Compassion should never be tainted in racial, ethnic, or linguistic terms.

Once again, I appeal to your humanity, your faith, and your nationalism to do the right thing - apologize for your insensitivity. Do it for Pakistan, do it for Islam, and most importantly do it for the sake of simple compassion for fellow human beings. You cannot appeal to Urdu-speaking Mohajirs to join you in your call for ``democracy,`` while telling them that Pakistanis, like them, who happen to speak Urdu as a native language, are NOT welcome in Pakistan. Thank you.

PS – I have decided to ignore your veiled threat against Urdu-speaking residents of Lahore. Obviously, you did not mean it in those terms even though, coming from you, it sure sounded rather hostile and condescending.

#422 rf786 {``Ethnic fascism? What Pathan Anp and Baloch ethnic parties practice that is national politics? Clearly, your writings on Mqm betray some deep seated or conditioned hatred which makes it rascist because the same rancour is not seen for other ethnic people. As mentioned above, why do u not express the same sentiments for the Pathan nationalists killing Pak soldiers and their supporters in the tribal and frontier belt?
...Where do these brave Pakistanis vanish when state terrorism is practiced on the citizens of Karachi, Hyderabad, Balochistan? Where do these brave citizens find refuge when Naseer Lulla Baber is hailed as a national hero? How does this bravery evaporate when confronted by the Lal Masjid/Taliban terrorism?``}

Bismillah Bhai,
Thank you very much for providing such a thoughtful, polite, and fact-based response to Mr. Tahmed`s numerous complaints against Mohajirs, Urdu-speakers, MQM, and ghoondaism. I appreciate your taking the time to address each of his points and request a sense of balance and proportionality in his viewpoints. Thanks again.

#416 Tahmed

Brother Tahmed,

I think that in this post you have outdone yourselves. I must have read it a dozen times.
I and many many others find ourselves in complete agreement.


I wonder how the pseudo (read hypocrite) crowd would react !!!

Haha ... Echoboom is the limit .... (views exclusively of the author :)

May 28, 2007

How the Westoxicated Pakis were enslaved..

....`` I can`r read & write Urdu, I can`t cook Biryaani..Nihaari, I enjoy behaving westernish , kanjarR like, Im professional, I like goraa Ishtyle but hate Islamic laws...Is that not proof sufficient proof that I am maadrate, can cook Raushan-khayali-PuulaaOs, and maaadren, & like a snake molted my Desi Skin culture & religion?

But why O why they still mistake me for a Desi & a muslim?

Maybe I`ll act more KanjarR..only then they`ll know I am a graduate of MIT``

......................musings of a Desi woman caught in a Neuronal & hormonal Time-Warp.

#415 by abu_safwaan

AS LONG AS THe ACT DOESNT BECOME THE SOURCE OF CORRUPTION for THE SOCIETY AT LARGE.

Mohtarim, that`s exactly what I`m saying. If such acts are legalised (just as in gay marriages), then these no longer remain a taboo and result in societal decay.


#414 by Naqshbandi

...i would hope they wouldnt do such stuff but if they did i would let my personal objections be known. that is not the same as saying it shouldnt be legally allowed between consenting adults....because from a human rights pov there is no argument against it. yes we can use religious arguments but what if the person is non religious?

Sir, I salute you. You`re a true Sufi. As hamidm2 cheers your joining his ranks in #418 ... I intone in unison with you both:

MAULA HOOOOOOOOO !!!

SalimChauhan: My ``compassion`` or lack thereof on the ``stranded pakistani`` issue does not matter one bit in real life, since Pakistan government policies are not set based on what some chowk poster writes. And by the same token, my views send a ``strong message`` to no one, and in fact you are the only chowk poster who has been brought this up.

And to repeat myself, I think I am merely stating the obvious that mqm`s violence and making of ethnic issues in the 1980`s reduced sympathies for the ``stranded pakistanis`` among many people. I recall behram mentioning this to you as well, so this is not exactly an outrageous conclusion. So, please dont see what I think is a perfectly reasonable conclusion as being ``lack of compassion``, although we can simply agree to disagree since it is not unreasonable for people to arrive at different conclusions based on the same set of facts.

And you have no basis for calling panjabis as being racist either: The proof of this is in the fact is that Musharraf`s overthrow of Nawaz Sharif was welcomed in the panjab and made possible by non-muhajir (panjabi/pathan) generals. The proof of this is in the election of Sindhis BB and ZAB with great popular support in the panjab. The proof of this is in the fact that thousands of ``muhajirs`` have left karachi and live peacefully in Lahore and Rawalpindi throughout the 1980`s, 1990`s and to this day. If people have turned against musharraf now, it is not because of his ethnicity but because he made the same mistake Nawaz Sharif made that started the path to his removal - he sought to gain absolute power, and tried to over-ride the authority of the Supreme Court. And the proof of this is in the fact that there has not been any mqm-like panjabi ethnic party even as a minority party. And the proof of this is in the fact that many panjabis speak urdu with the same ease as they do panjabi. I could go on, but if this is not enough to make you realize how wrong you are in terming panjabis as racist nothing will.

On the other hand, and as I noted earlier, panjabis (or pathans or baluch) are not exactly shaking with fear of mqm either. Musharraf is beholden to non-mohajirs for his power, which is based on a large military. If there has been no backlash against mohajirs in Lahore after the slaughter of May 12, it is not because of fear of mqm - rather it is because there is zero concern of mqm on the part of anyone other than those unfortunate enough to be living in karachi/hyderabad.

So, if you accept the fact that there is neither fear nor hatred for mohajirs on the part of non-mohajirs of pakistan, you need to see who benefits from this use of mqm to prevent the chief justice from speaking in the same peaceful manner in karachi as he had done a few days earlier in Lahore. It is certainly not the mohajir community, certainly not the ``stranded pakistanis``, and of course not the rest of pakistan either.

Democracy is the only way to go for Pakistan. Military rule has brought it nothing but fascism in one form or another - fascism of the kind promoted by religious parties (who have benefitted tremendously from military rule, and who have failed miserably in elections whenver Pakistanis have been given the chance to vote) or the ethnic fascism of mqm (which was created by zia to counter the popularity of PPP I believe).

Brave Pakistanis inside Pakistan are speaking out for democracy. Perhaps musharraf will realize the wisdom of permitting free and fair elections for president, perhaps he will not. And God only knows where all this will lead to. But now is the time for mohajirs to either stand up and be counted as being among those who stood up against continued military rule, or to be among those who committed the carnage of May 12 to help a misguided military ruler suppress the basic right to free speech and peaceful assembly that the chief justice was asserting that day.

You can agree or disagree with what I have written above, since these are merely my personal views as someone who wishes nothing more than to see all Pakistanis (regardless of ethnicity) prosper in a democratic nation that is at peace with itself, with its neighbors and with the rest of the world. I am not running for any elections (not even on chowk!!), so these are my sincere opinions and there is no hypocrisy in what I say.

Also, on a matter of lesser national importance (!), I hope you will think again about the other questions I raised about not picking on female posters on unplugged or on ``panjus`` who have done you no harm, and which (as I mentioned) is ultimately in our own interest. You may not like my repeating this, but as I said, I am not running for any popularity contests on chowk. :-)

PS: sorry all for a lengthy post. took me an hour to write this, so i will not be writing any posts, or at least such lengthy ones, in the near future. I did think that instead of all of us mindlessly taking the cue from May 12 and engaging in mohajir vs non-mohajir arguments, stop to think of the wisdom behind engaging in such arguments. This is a time for all Pakistanis (and indeed, all people of the subcontinent particularly India) to unite and pray for a constructive resolution of the current crisis that Pakistan is going though without further bloodshed.