Allama Iqbal- Is he still relevant?

Inshallah.

I just ran across this one.....


The Telegraph – Calcutta, India
Saturday, June 30, 2007

IQBAL’S HINDU RELATIONS
this above all - Khushwant Singh

I am beholden to P.V. Rawal of Jammu for sending me a photograph of Allama Iqbal’s Kashmiri Brahmin family taken in Sialkot in 1931. At this time Iqbal was in his mid-fifties. He had already risen to the top as the greatest Urdu poet, at par with Mirza Asadullah Khan Ghalib. Although he was proud of his Brahmin descent, he had nothing to say about his Hindu relations. In this picture, the elderly lady seated in the middle is his grandmother, Indirani Sapru, nicknamed Poshi, wife of Pandit Kanhaya Lal Sapru. The man standing on the left in a shawl is Iqbal’s cousin, Amarnath Sapru; note the close resemblance to the poet.

The family traces its origin to one Birbal. They lived in the village of Saprain (hence, the surname Sapru) on Shopian-Kulgam road. Then the family moved to Srinagar where Iqbal and most of his cousins were born. Birbal had five sons and a daughter. The third one, Kanhaya Lal, and his wife, Indirani, had three sons and five daughters. Kanhaya Lal was Iqbal’s grandfather. His son, Rattan Lal, converted to Islam and was given the name Nur Mohammad. He married a Muslim woman — Imam Bibi. The Saprus disowned Rattan Lal and severed all connections with him. There are different versions of Rattan Lal’s conversion. The one given to me by Syeda Hameed, who has translated some of Iqbal’s poetry into English, maintains that Rattan Lal was the revenue collector of the Afghan governor of Kashmir. He was caught embezzling money. The governor offered him a choice: he should either convert to Islam or be hanged. Rattan Lal chose to stay alive. When the Afghan governor fled from Kashmir to escape its takeover by the Sikhs, Rattan Lal migrated to Sialkot. Imam Bibi was evidently a Sialkoti Punjabi. Iqbal was born in Sialkot on November 9, 1877. As often happens, the first generation of converts are more kattar than others. Iqbal thus grew up to be a devout Muslim. It is believed that once he called on his Hindu grandmother, then living in Amritsar. But there is no hard evidence of their meeting and of what passed between them; Iqbal did not write about it. Though he had many Hindu and Sikh friends and admirers, he felt that the future of Indian Muslims lay in having a separate state of their own. Iqbal was the principal ideologue of what later become Pakistan. Iqbal’s mother-tongue was Punjabi but he never wrote in it. He used only Persian and Urdu, as did many Urdu poets before him.

There are many aspects of Iqbal’s personal life which have not been fully researched by his biographers. We know he married two or three times and that his favourite son was Javed, who became a judge of the Lahore high court. Iqbal’s affair with Atia Faizi of Bombay when they met in London is well-known. There must have been some correspondence between them to show the kind of relationship they had. When in Heidelberg, he was taken up by his young German tutor, Emma Veganast. This secret was divulged by the mayor of Heidelberg in a speech in which he named a part of the bank of the river Neckar after him — Iqbal Weg. The Pakistani ambassador to Germany had the mayor’s speech mentioning the girl’s name suppressed. Iqbal and Emma continued to write to each other till the end of his life. The correspondence should be available in archives in Lahore and Heidelberg. Lovers of Iqbal, among whom I count myself, deserve to be presented with a fuller picture of their idol. We have biographies of Rabindranath Tagore revealing all his love affairs but none of the Allama telling us of the kind of man he was.

Look, the guy was confused, died long time before Pakistan was being hatched by britain, the best i can say is he was a copycat of Nietzche ( compare momen ``the overman`` / Ubermensch, even his thinking pose ). Only that he went the opposite of what Nietzche line of thoughts were.

Anyhow in the absence of any leading figure within Punjab of pakistan, Iqbal fit perfectly for the early dictatros, in my opinion this fabrication of a leader has caused most of the problems for the region, first thougts of past glories were ingrained in the mind of youths, making them go back to the roots, and what roots it has taken us to one may ask, misguided support of taliban, kashmir insurgents, kargil, and now lal masjid.

Most of these folks are now disillusioned, which leave the illitrates to now take the meshal (torche) , and you see the whole talibanization of the region through force and terror.

Now where does this leave us, can`t think of any other way but a turkish style kamal ata turk that could force the secular up everyone`s ass, the alternate is a nuke strap to potbeley of mullahs raining down on earth !

Re: # 125

Welcome dear Nehal! You are right; only an Atta Turk can perhaps save the world now from these fundoo hate-mongers. I am afraid they are taking the world to a holocaust by mushrooms.

After this article I was trying to make a mental picture of YLH. Then comes the other one.

2 Things strike me

This man`s passionate commitment to his country.

An attempt to construct the ``Ideology of Pakistan`` (let us call it that for want of a better word) without Islam or rather without Islam as its core.

So I am thninking why is he trying that?? Is it because he is an Ahmadi and has faced persecution.

Also what is troubling is his passionate hatred towards India and Indians to the point where he puts false hood and half truths to support his PoV.

Interesting character but still one wonders why is he doing this Sisyphean task at all.

Sanatani

@ Yasser Latif

Your article is insightful. However you have skipped to mention another type of critique of Iqbalian thought. It is the criticism on Allama Iqbal`s philosophical ideas. I consider Syed Ali Abbas Jalalpuri as an important this type of critique of Iqbalian though. Please check my following articles about Iqbalian thought. I have accepted many points of Syed Ali Abbas Jalalpuri in this connection.

Allama Iqbal`s Anti-Rational Approach & Some important Historical Roots of Iqbalian Ishq

Regards!

zeemax:

that line --misra` -- `tuu faqat Allahu, Allahu, Allahu` is NOT about `sufis` but a part of a dialogue between Iblis and Gabriel and the poem is actually entitled, Gibril aur Iblis. It is said by Iblis to Gibril in the poem...

Stuka #115: True. But he was just one of a number of writers in his particular genre (i.e. south asian) of writing. I think it is the fatwa that made him the internationally known figure that he is.

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Dear teshah,


With all due respect...I don`t know who this ``Our`` is that you speak for... I am definitely not part of this ``our``. You may go on saying this but know that today people like you are less than a few hundred thousand... and even most of them don`t share your conception.

In any event ...your ``Watan`` Hindustan- as one state- was - whether you like it or not- a British creation ... unless you mean the geographical entity called the Indian subcontinent...

Re: # 118

Oh dear Manto! You are mixing up `Watan` and `State` and `geographical` and `idealogical` entities. Just think, Bengali Muslims who were in the fore-front of the Paki Movement have shed their subjectivism and reverted to their `Desh`, an objective reality. Today ask a Bihari in Bangladesh about his motherland he would definitely say `Pakistan` and rightly so because when he was born there was no Bangladesh. If they insist calling former West Pakistan as Pakistan or New Pakistan, as Bhutto used to call it, let them do so but it is no longer the Quaide Azam`s Pakistan, a Two-Nation wala Pakistan. The fact is that there was no Paky nation to clamour for Pakistan as Bengalies did for Bengladesh who discarded West Pakistan because they had come to hate the very name of Pakistan. Oh! I forgot! The only paky thing in the residual Pakistan, in fact, is the Pak fouj, and so for that matter a rightful claiment to rule the country. So why not call it now as `Foujistan` or `Mushistan`?

Excuse me this harangue as `Aaj dard kuchh dil mein sawa hota he`. I saw Quaide Azam as a young boy and had followed his chariot in a `jalloos`. But today I see him hanged alone on a dune in front of my home on Shahraae Islamabad. Often tears flood to my eyes when I see that great man sad and lonely, hanged on a scaffold where the traffic zooms past him nonchalantly.

Regards

Re: # 124

``I saw Quaide Azam as a young boy and had followed his chariot in a `jalloos`. But today I see him hanged alone on a dune in front of my home on Shahraae Islamabad. Often tears flood to my eyes when I see that great man sad and lonely, hanged on a scaffold where the traffic zooms past him nonchalantly. ``

It is time then to rescue him...

Re: # 128

Mantolives

Thank you dear for your suggestion. But it is for the young-ones to rescue him. Hopefully I see some glimpse of him in Imran Khan. May God help him.

Iqbal is relevant today and would remain so, if for nothing else, then his `Taranah-e-Hindi` which says `` Hindi hein ham watan he Hindostan hamaara, ham bulbalein hein iski yih gulsitaan hamara``.

Our `watan` is, no doubt, still Hindostan, despite the fact that it has been divided into states of `Bharat`, `Pakistan`, `Bangladesh`, etc., etc.

Iqbal is relevant today and would remain so, if for nothing else, then his `Taranah-e-Hindi` which says `` Hindi hein ham watan he Hindostan hamaara, ham bulbalein hein iski yih gulsitaan hamara``.

Our `watan` is, no doubt, still Hindostan, despite the fact that it has been divided into states of `Bharat`, `Pakistan`, `Bangladesh`, etc., etc.

#88 by tahmed32 on June 24, 2007 4:59am PT
#87 zeemax: If there had been no iranian fatwa against Rushdie, he would have been just another mediocre, little known writer, competing for attention on chowk with Hamidm (and Hamidm would have beaten him flat out).

TAhmed, u are dead wrong on this ojne. Salman Rushdie was very well known in the 80s itself due to two novels; Midnight`s Children and Shame.

As expected - the Indians went wild all by themselves

What was not predicted- mainly because it went without saying- was Maulana Atif`s repetitive invocations against me.

Forget me... I am nobody. Even Imran Khan himself has changed his views so many times and admitted it frankly. Wasn`t he Musharraf`s biggest supporter only five short years ago? If the great Khan can change his views on numerous issues.. so can I. The very fact that I have left all my ilogs up despite change of views shows that I am accepting that maybe I was wrong then... or maybe I am wrong now.

To me this shows evolution. Only rigid people with a lack of thinking ability remain wedded to their old positions. If anything then this should show the strength of conviction that I have in ideas that I have stuck by unwaveringly... because I question every single one of my stances every single day I am lucky enough to breathe.

#106 {``He also suffers from a superiority (`I am right`) complex. I find it useful and hopefully educational to others to puncture his bubble. Some Punjabis (and I say this in all seriousness, being one myself) are full of themselves. Fortunately, in India, we are a minority, and not taken very seriously.``}

PewResearch Sahib,
I apologize for any shotgun effect from my daily battles with the most avowed mohajir hater on Chowk. I do not hold ALL Punjabis responsible for his actions - just a few of his cohorts like Zeemax, Akber, Urinaluly, and bubba. I support you in your efforts to exfoliate this plague. good luck. please donate his hide to the folks making the fine chappals in South India.

#108, Chacha Chaar Sau Khabees:
You may think that calling me ``rodent man`` is funny. All you are doing is reminding my fellow Urdu-speaking mohajirs that you are using Bezamir`s favorite racist and hateful term ``chooha`` for us. The same word was used by your idol, Gen. Bawaseer Lulla BuRbuR. Go ahead and convince all of us that you are a bigoted, racist, hypocritical paindoo.

#109 by rashid_s

Tu faqat allaahu allaahu allaahu!

He said that about sufis, but apparently without much success.

Only a well read Lawyer can do justice to what may appear to many as conflicting thoughts and argue in favour of his client who was by all accounts a complex personality.
Anybody, let alone a poet-philosopher like Iqbal who had the courage to extricate humanity from the clutches of ritual worship-- Tu faqat allaahu allaahu allaahu!
and prick the ribs of the Church, is a hero of mine:-
Thanks Yasser.
Rashid

Q: When pandit-hate-pew is in trouble, who`s he gonna call?

A: Rodent Man!!

Re: # 108 Tahmed32
You are digging a deeper hole with each such pronouncement and confirming your status as the Chowk village idiot! You hypocrite!
CIAO

Bala would try every `dhoti` and this is one reason he ended up so confused in his philosophy. As it is, any renowned philosopher has a thousand books written against his ideas - the level of criticism is a good indicator of how original a person`s ideas are. Interestingly, there is not a single book critiquing Bala`s philosophy. This may be due to a lack of scholastic culture in Pakistan - or it could be that Bala`s really not a philosopher at all.

Dr. Mubarak Ali was mentioned in the article. Dr. Mubarak Ali`s `History on Trial` states that nearly all Indo-Muslim literature that stressed non-Indian Muslims as heroes and looked to the Hijaz and Ottoman and Arabia as a source for inspiration was a product of active British persecution. The British persecuted anyone - particularly after 1857 - who tried to highlight the heroes of India - and since Muslims were the main power-weilders - who were mainly Muslims. Fearing another 1857, the colonial powers actively encouraged Indian Muslims to seek comfort in the desert outposts of Arabia and the falling citadels of the Ottoman Empire. So you have Sir Syed Ahmed Khan writing `The Loyal Mohamadans`. Ghalib`s `khatuut` are also often apologetic in nature and reflect a fear among the Muslim community.

In the same light, can we see SIR Allama Iqbal`s poetry with an infusion of non-Indian Muslim heroism, an extension of the British propoganda machine? Since SIR BALA did wear his knighthood with considerable honor, this question has merit.

Yasser,

Iqbal was a poet. Therefore, he ought to be considered exempt from such trivial, ordinary, and practical considerations as rules of logic, making sense, being consistent, etc.

Even more, he must be considered absolutely exempt from...

...being RELEVANT!

By definition, poets are never relevant and forever are! If that sounds inconsistent...

...then you have it!

PewResearch {`` Tahmed, ...I`ll discuss matters of substance when you are able to rise above petty matters.``}

Pew Janab,
The senile old Chacha Paindoo will not rise above mediocrity in his lifetime, short as it is. The man chooses to pontificate on Islamic matters with the venom and passion of a newly-circumscribed Muslim Pope. Yet, when it comes to compassion for fellow Muslims, the hypocrite is about as generous as the tightest baniya - and I am not necessarily referring to his rectum either, which is about as loose as the morals of the Paki Punju inhabitants of Hira Mandi. In summary, Chacha Chaar Sau Bees is devoted to licking the unwashed TP-rubbed white bums of his gora masters in left, right, left, right, pajama dheela topi tight manner. :)

Re: # 104 Salim

Tahmed is a hypocrite and a bundle of contradictions. These characteristics overwhelm whatever positive aspects he has in his personality. His kind are very dangerous, because they have an IQ high enough to influence others, but not high enough to sift through the good and the bad. As a result, their influence tends to be generally bad. He also suffers from a superiority (`I am right`) complex. I find it useful and hopefully educational to others to puncture his bubble. Some Punjabis (and I say this in all seriousness, being one myself) are full of themselves. Fortunately, in India, we are a minority, and not taken very seriously.

Zeemax #99 So, what you are saying is that the sequence of events was - the destruction of the American cultural center in Islamabad, which brought rushdie to the attention of the persian mullahs, who issued the fatwa to kill him. While this is I assume the correct chronology of events, the fact remains that the reason rushdie is world famous is because of that fatwa, not because of the attack on the American cultural center (which even had forgotten about).

as for pepe le pew, he is no doubt doing scholarly research to prove that India is the land of the free and massive poverty, dalits, and burning brides, and female infanticide are only ISI propaganda. :-)

Re: # 102 Tahmed

I thought that you were done with me! And my nick still gives you hernia. Ha! Ha! Ha!
I`ll discuss matters of substance when you are able to rise above petty matters.

pew-research-but-actually-pandit-hate: what part of ``worry about the filth in hindu society`` before pontificating on the ills of muslim society dont you understand?

tahmed32,

But tahmed, what I find amusing is that this pukeresearch is even willing to make ME an ally against you ... LoL ... Haha ....

#88 by tahmed32,

Agreed except for the last line.

I was just pointing to that you don`t know facts when you said the `Iranian jahil Mullahs` started it all. Actually it was the US cultural centre gutting in Islamabad which brought the matter to the attention of the Iranians and they acted officially in issuing the fatwa ... not just street protests.

pew-man: enough time wasted with you. last post to you, until i decide it is time to tell you to pew-off once again.

#93 a man who takes on the name of a research organization is in no position to call anyone pompous.

pew-man: new pew-off to some indian board and worry about the filth in hindu society. instead of pretending to be an american research organization commenting from mt. olympus on the ills of muslim society.

Re: # 94 Tahmed

Repeat. I don`t care what you think, except about exposing your pompous ignorance.

``off to some indian board and worry about the filth in hindu society. instead of pretending to be an american research organization commenting from mt. olympus on the ills of muslim society.``

Most who live in non-Muslim societies are free individuals who can choose to read whatever they want, think whatever they want, write whatever they want. When you absorb the simplicity of this principle, you will quit making the assertions that earned you the `village idiot` title. You cannot dictate what I read or write, and where I do. I am free to illuminate your ignorance.

Here is another chutyatic observation from you: `off to some indian board `

Out of the millions of posts that you have written on Chowk, have you bothered even once to read the title in the titlebar: Chowk-Identities of India Pakistan? (note the order in which the countries are called out?)

#91 you care about the discussions. i had to tell you twice to f.o. before you stopped addressing posts to me.

Re: # 92 Tahmed

I don`t care what you think, except about exposing your pompous ignorance. You obviously knew nothing about the Booker Prize (a well read person would not made the gaffe that you did). A discussion with you will be illuminating for you, but not for me.

#89 pepe le pew: the fact that i refuse to have ``discussions`` with a self-important twit like you makes me a wise man, not the village idiot. :-)

Re: # 90 Tahmed

Who cares about a discussion? More important: bare the facts for all to see. Let them decide whether you qualify as one or not!

#87 zeemax: If there had been no iranian fatwa against Rushdie, he would have been just another mediocre, little known writer, competing for attention on chowk with Hamidm (and Hamidm would have beaten him flat out).

It was the iranian fatwa that made him world famous. Without the fatwa, the burning of the US Cultural Center (regardless of whether it took place before or after the fatwa) would have been seen by the world as merely another example of lawlessness in a third world country, and no one would have bothered to inquire about the pretext used this time to destroy property.

Re: # 88 Tahmed32

``...If there had been no iranian fatwa against Rushdie, he would have been just another mediocre, little known writer...``

Tahmed is a village idiot who does not know his facts. Period. Zeemax, you got Tahmed32 cornered this time. Here is a part of Rushdie`s chronology.

Rushdie won the Booker Prize in 1981 for his novel Midnight`s Children. The fatwa did not come until 1988. In case you didn`t know, the winner of the Booker Prize is generally assured of international renown and success. It is also a mark of distinction for authors to be nominated for the Booker longlist or selected for inclusion in the shortlist. In 1993, the Booker of Bookers Prize was awarded to Salman Rushdie for Midnight`s Children (the 1981 winner), as the best novel to win the award in the first 25 years of its existence.

But, in keeping with you chauvinistic, pompous, alpha male, Punjabi muslim, attitude, your observations come as no surprise.

#73 by tahmed32

zeemax: is the timing of the iranian fatwa important?

My #62 was to correct your false assertion in your #59 i.e. ``It is these jahil irani mullahs, who by issuing the fatwa, gave this bore so much prominence. if they had not done so, no one would have heard of rushdie...``

In fact, it was your `jahil` students of Quaid-e-Azam Uni of Islamabad who gave rushdie so much prominence by completely gutting the US Cultural Center in Islamabad. The Iranian fatwa came later.

As a further matter of fact, the very first protests were in India.

But facts have never been your forte`. :~)

#85 by Zeena on June 23, 2007 6:37pm PT


always a competent doctor start treating headache with the simplest method first


retards like you need to go to a proctologist for brain surgery....

#82 atif ji
LOL...you gave me an example of medical decision making for Headache.......

Well, to tell you the truth, this example itself has lost it`s validity, when you are asking me, that if, my doctor changes his deccision so frequently , will I trust him so oftenly?

For your example, Yes, I will trust my doctor more when he comes up with new and more improved evidenced based medical decision for my headache work up.....

And in real world, this happens daily, always a competent doctor start treating headache with the simplest method first.........and progressively go to upper level , if, headache doesn`t improve...means ...if, next day, my headache doesn`t improve, ofcourse my doctor has every right to change his decision to an alternative method of treatment and patients appreciate doctor`s improved paln of treatment.......

Remember, if one drug doesn`t work or, if, doctor changes his plan to treat frequently , that`s more admirable , than to get stuck with the same old rotten plan with no chances of cure...meicine is a very rapidly changing field of practice.......and that`s the best example that you gave in this context.....but, dearie this example is working against your own view....

Medicine is evolutionary process and sameway, human mind is.....

If, Manto is saying something in favour of Imran Khan now and said something against him in the past, that`s not a valid reason to humiliate manto....Rather I will encourage manto to come up with new ideology more often.....

We don`t need stagnant water...we need fresh srping water..............

#69 by Naqshbandi on June 23, 2007 10:30am PT



`comparisons only the muslims/pakis buy` -- bollocks! if you read papers like the london guardian and the independent


HAHA...that`s all you`v got? Al-guardian...

heck...even the british government is exclusively focusing on islamofascists like your brothers when it says it`s fighting terrorism...

and when the US government made it a requirement for foreigners/aliens to register, guess which islamic country made it to the list before indonesia, the largest muslim country or India, the land with an equal number of muslims....

#78 Zeena {``Imran Khan Zina bad...... ``}

Zeena,
Finally, you see the light. This is exactly what we have been saying. Any way ``Deer aayad drust aayad. `` :)

zeena #79 ``Manto has every right to change his mind any time, ``

Of course zeena dear, manto has every right to change his mind any time and as often as he wishes...and BY GOD he exercises that option with frenzied frequency. But if he is going to change his mind this often, why doesnt he just wait until he has made up his mind?

Yes, evolution of thought is important and one should adjust to changing circumstances. But consider the following example:

Imagine you go to a doctor for headache. He tells you to take Advil. You go the next day with same headache and he ``evolves`` his prescription by telling you to take an injection. By third day, he has adjusted to the fact that he was wrong the first two days and therefore ``evolves`` into suggesting that you get a head surgery done on you. Would you believe him, even if you laud his capacity to ``evolve`` and learn from his mistakes?

Manto, by his own admission, is a trained economist and a trained lawyer. He cannot be lauded for learning from his mistake after his incompetence sends a man to gallows. And he sent Imran`s reputation to gallows by when he lawyerly argued on December 1st 2005 (as quoted in #74) that Imran was a ``terrorist``, ``goofy``, and ``misogynist``...

#77 Forget about Hamidm - let`s talk about you.

First, you think you are a muslim, but are unable to free yourself from the casteist brahmin mindset when you refer to ``masih`` as if people are greater or lesser human beings depending on their profession.

Second, you think I equate Mullahism with Islam (under the nick Hamidm) and equate Mullahism with Jehaliyat and the opposite of Islam (under the nick Tahmed). Please enlighten me on why you think any individual would spend his time deliberately contradicting himself?

Manto first of all great write up. But allama is only relevant to anyone who can read. When more people are literate this will be a more relevant question.

#74 atif ji

With all due respect, I do not agree with you on this stand against Manto.

I still remember I used to criticize Imran Khan a lot in the past, but, with time I progressively realized Imran Khan is the only leader that pakistanis can trust...Only, if they are not hijacked by other proven corrupt retard politicians.............They are so much retards that I feel shame to call them politicians....they are everything,but, politicians,..they do not know any abcs of politics, their politics start with corruption and end with corruption............

But, on the other hand , Imran Khan`s politics starts with fairness and ends with fairness......and that`s the main reason some Pakistanis call Imran Khan an immatured politician....b/c sadly in Pakistan only masters and PHD in corruption is the badge of honor and qualification to be considered a matured Politician.......

Anyone who is not corrupt according to set Pakistani standards, Pakistani population won`t accept him/her their politician.........LOL

And it is clear now, why Pakistan is down the drain and still #1 corrupt country in the world...Isn`t it sad? For an idealist fool like me, yes it is......

When any nation start taking corruption as the norm for it`s society and when corruption culture becomes the part and parcel of Pakistani culture then we can well imagine what could be the reason for Pakistan to be down the drain...............


Manto has every right to change his mind any time, when he feels like with valid reasoning and I think Manto has quite a valid reason to change his mind for Imran Khan.............

atif jii

You are nullifying the process of evolution here......we humans change our thoughs for others under the same process and that`s the vital process in the progress of human progeny..If, we stop thinking and get stuck with our same old worn out views then, we are actually opposing Iqbal`s ideology.............


Manto`s metamorphosis upon this Imran Khan`s issue is under the same evolution.......which is quite encouraging and progressive.....

It is totally contrary to MQWM Mafia`s rotten old ghetto style views where they only backup their own racial slurs and where they wish to divide and rule.....where they do not consider themselves Pakistani, they only view themselves as certain miserable group of people who have had been suffering @ the hands of all other ethnicities and now they only wish one thing and that`s revenge, their stand is to take revenge from anyone who speaks the truth and who tries to oppose their cruel agenda...............of killing innocent poor Pakistani Karachiits..........


Anyway, no matter what your own personal issues with Manto are, please, try NOT to sabotage our national interest @ the chaotic times....If, we consider ourselves patriotic Pakistanis, then we have to forget our personal grudges and we should resolve them for the one voice of democracy in Pakistan.....

All of Pakistanis should be united on this issue of establishment of democracy in Pakistan...with the help of our leader Imran Khan............

I can only see Imran Khan`s picture fit in to this poetry......

Imran Khan Zinda bad......

atif #74 So - all this proves is that manto is capable of changing his mind over time as more facts become available. Thus, there is no question that Imran Khan gave a ``fitting reply`` to the outrages of May 12, and for that he deserves credit. And manto is quite right in recognizing this.

This proves manto is smart. Unlike some chowk duds I could mention whose minds are shaped by the losers that raised them and are incapable of changing their views on anything.

Re: # 75

Please tell me that Hamid Masih is on ur list of DUDs otherwise i would be forced to accept the notion that u r but his alter ego

I suggest that before manto analyzes another personality, he himself should volunteer to undergo a personality test to determine his stability.

Following are Manto`s 2 ilogs on Imran Khan. One written in dead of winter in 2005, the other written in dead of summer in 2007. Please notice the GIANT u-turn in manto`s ``analysis`` of Imran...

December 1, 2005
[...But one side of Imran Khan has progressively gone fundo and no one can deny this. He does condone if not support terror against Israel and the west... his head-shaking goofy-smile as he encourages the worst form of persecution mania against the west .. all are just too much for any one person to take. What people like Imran Khan do is fuel an unrealistic anti-imperialism and a weird form Islamic populism... he denounces the western education system in Pakistan as ``ooont-e-bey-mahar``.. and speaks of the virtues of the tribal Jirga system over the British legal system in place etc etc -- promotes weird misogynist views about women ... ]

June 13, 2007
[... Imran Khan is a staunch Pakistani nationalist and a believer in Two Nation Theory (though it means something totally different than what Indians want it to mean) ... whose faith in Islam is stronger than any man I know but who does not wear that faith on his sleeve and does not resort to ``singing`` the Quran in public... Let me say this... if decency means moral uprightness of character and incorruptibility... then like Jinnah before him... Imran Khan has no peer not in just in Pakistan but in all of South Asia ]

#62 zeemax: is the timing of the iranian fatwa important?

There we go again..........the Pakis slugging it out amongst themselves on a non-issue........

the next Prez of pakistan will be decided by Bushy.....period.......no amount of raving, ranting & wishful thinking is gonna change that..........

Bushy the brave has also taken Altaf Hussain the fearless into consideration.......

get a life guys........before its too late.........and the dole from USA stops.........

btw i dont mean to offend anyone but arjun is such a prat that he needs to be reminded of some home truths.

`comparisons only the muslims/pakis buy` -- bollocks! if you read papers like the london guardian and the independent you would see that they condemn hindu terrorism as strongly as sny other terrorism.

because of that half-naked fakir [thanks hamidm] gandhu, sorry, gandhi, and some horny gurus like maharishi ganesh or whatever [the one with 100 rolls royces] who told gullible rich westerners in the 60s and 70s that enlightenment was via getting stoned and having orgies, people in the west have this false impression of hinduism as a peace loving religion.

also it is all about real-politick. if the hinduis actually threatened western interests you could bet your bottom dollar that they would be demonised as much as muslims overall are becoming even though no muslim party when in power has committed atrocities like the shiv sainiks did to muslims in gujarat. after all these same terrorist wahabistas were being lauded as freedom fighters and mujahideen by the very same media when they were fighting the soviets.

so you might be able to fool the innocent and trusting people of the naive west who don`t know your lulli-kat saffron realities but you cannot fool us cos we lived side by side with you for 1000 years. sayings such as `bughal mein choRee munh mein Ram Ram` didn`t just come out of nowhere.

Re: # 69

``also it is all about real-politick. if the hinduis actually threatened western interests you could bet your bottom dollar that they would be demonised as much as muslims overall are becoming even though no muslim party when in power has committed atrocities like the shiv sainiks did to muslims in gujarat.

Really.......never knew that the Shiv Sena was in power in Gujarat.......

Since when...........

Pls do enlighten us.........

Re: # 72

ok i meant bjp...whichever party modi the hindu thug belongs to along with his chailas

arjun you uncircumcised phallus, when hindu fanatics burn christians alive or kill muslims it is not terrorism according to you. i dont support muslim extremists either but you are the one who is deluded. the reason hindu terrorism doesnt make the same headlines as islamic terrorism most of the time is that you guys haven`t got balls to do anything to anyone other than helpless preachers and women and children. even though it is totally unislamic, to gve your life for a cause in a suicide bomb actually takes balls. something you vegetarian hindus lack. otherwise you wouldn`t have been the whipping boys of history...you should actually thank the british who, by ruling india and overthrowing the muslim mughal rulers, gave you your first taste of freedom in about a millenium.

he`s full of it...like all pakis, he`s got an amazing ability to delude himself by making ridiculous comparisons that only muslims/pakis buy...

capt clueless tried to pull that after 9/11 too...told us the real problem in the world was hindu terrorism because of the tamil tigers...posted a bunch of material to prove it...problem was, nobody else bought it..pakis were deported in bulk and he`s now cooling his heels in canuckistan....

Arjun, now go easy on Naqsh who is a wise man, and very atypical.

#57 by Naqshbandi on June 23, 2007 6:49am PT

yes...that`s the same thing as a million $ reward for rushdie`s head...or the speaker of the punjab assembly saying he`d kill rushdie himself..or the minister of religion of the land of the pure saying suicide bombings against rushdie are justified...

Re: # 64

well actually the such peaceful hindus have given him death threats and ransacked his home which have forced him to leave india and live abroad.

so what`s the difference. and the leader of the hindus who was at the forefront of such attacks was bal thackeray who is a politician too (actually a gangster but in the guise of a politician).

and wasn`t deepa mehta/mira nair also forced to film Water in Nepal after hindu fanatics burnt down the sets of her film in Benares?

#53 {``We need another Shaheen like Quaid_e-Azam.................
And Imran Khan fits in to that picture perfect........... ``}

Zeena,
Imran Khan is more like what the Shaheen left on the rock. :)

#59 by tahmed32,

Did the US cultural centre attack in Islamabad come before or after the Iranian fatwa? I think it was before.

From Tom Friedman`s NYT opinion piece:

``But since the Islamic parties have monopolized the mosques and the authoritarian regimes have monopolized the public square, anyone trying to articulate an Arab Fourth Way today “is competing against either God or the state — and between God and the state, what room is left for secular democrats?” asked Palestinian pollster Khalil Shikaki.
Only weeds can grow there — small nihilist weeds, like Fatah al Islam in Lebanon or Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia in Iraq or Islamic Jihad in Gaza. And they are growing.``

Sums up the way ahead for Pakstan. Mend your ways - little time left!

naqshbandi #56 good point. I tried reading his book to see what the fuss was about, and found it to be so dull i stopped reading after three pages. Like all bores, khotay da sir rushdie is trying to get attention by writing articles ridiculing people`s religious feelings - just like on chowk where the more stupid the poster, the more insulting his posts to some community since that is the only way anyone will pay attention to him.

It is these jahil irani mullahs, who by issuing the fatwa, gave this bore so much prominence. if they had not done so, no one would have heard of rushdie. and now the pakistani mullahs and the half-brained son of zia-ul-haq are making fools out of themselves and giving this khotay da sir even more attention.

arjun,
here are some urophiliac hindu retards protesting against m f hussain --the INDIAN artist:

Allamah Sahib himself was knighted by the British, of course...

I wish that the minority of Wahabi extremists who call themselves Muslims and use Islam to gain political points would realise the harm they are doing to the image of Muslims worldwide when they start protesting and burning books at the most trivial of things. Rushdie got a knighthood. So what? Get over it. If you don`t like his books,just don`t buy them.

He is a British citizen and the Brits have a right to honour him if they want; I don`t like the guy after he wrote Satanic Verses but I think this reaction is unjustified.

If Muslims hadn`t given him so much prominence the idiot would now be a forgotten novelist or someone most people outside of literary circles had not even heard of!

Re: # 56 Naqsh

Khomeini was no Wahabbi - he started it with the infamous Rushdie fatwa

Re: # 56 Naqsh

You are a wise man, and an atypical Muslim

inbred retards protesting Sir Salman Rushdie







mushy`s effigy gets burnt even at anti-rushdie rallies....it`s like mushy is the new America..



he looks really really constipated..

while people dabate Iqbal`s relevance, Jamia Hafza `revolutionaries` resort to action again , this time kidnapping Chinese from an Acupuncture centre in Islamabad.

What is ore relevant today, shayeri or laaThi??

I was never quite impressed by Sir, Allama Iqbal`s ideology, but, recently I started reading his few poetry books, and I realized Pakistan needs his kind of ideology more than ever....And his ideology is not only relevant for current Pakistani chaos, but, is vital,if Pakistanis wish to survive..........

We need another Shaheen like Quaid_e-Azam.................

And Imran Khan fits in to that picture perfect...........



Long live, our Shaheen, Imran Khan................Imran Khan zinda bad..............

I was never quite impressed by Sir, Allama Iqbal`s ideology, but, recently I started reading his few poetry books, and I realized Pakistan needs his kind of ideology more than ever....And his ideology is not only relevant for current Pakistani chaos, but, is vital,if Pakistanis wish to survive..........

We need another Shaheen like Quaid_e-Azam.................

And Imran Khan fits in to that picture perfect...........



Allama Iqbal got his inspirations from baba Khushaal Khan Khattack...........and I can safely say, Khan Baba was the actual Shaheen man........................

Sorry, zeemax..............

All I can say that in view of current Pakistani politics , Imran Khan is fits in to that ideology of Sir, Allama Iqbal`s ideology of Shaheen...........................

Long live Imran Khan, Shaheen of Pakistani democracy............

{``Allama Iqbal- Is he still relevant? ``}

Yasser,
Hi, all I can say is:

TeghoN ke sayye men Hum palkar jawaaN huwen heN
AasaaN nahiN mitaana naamo nishaaN hamara

OR

Baatil se Darney walle, ay aasmaN nahiN hum
So baar kar chuka he tu imtihaaN hamara

Re: # 49

Salim Sahib:

Bahut khoob..
Yeh shairi bhi seekhi aapne.

[#25 by Naqshbandi on June 22, 2007 2:42am PT

...IQ tests follow --in theory at least--a normal distribution with 100 in the middle...]

Gauss Bhaiyya idhar bhi aa dhamake. Koi baat nahee. Welcome.

So what is standard deviation of a standardized IQ test? If the IQ score=0 is at -3*ó then it should be at 33+1/3.

I think so disenfranchizing any people is a bad idea. But if you must use IQ test scores then using 100 as cutoff point is a bad idea. It will disenfrenchise 50% population. At +/-1*ó there are natural points on Gauss`s distribution. At these points are the pdf curve`s two Points of Inflexion. All other points are ``Man Made``. Like 95% etc are all man made. If one must use the distribution of IQ scores in a population one may use (mean -1*ó). At least that way more then 50% will be vote eligible.

But I think letting the nature biase the population by requiring every willing voter first of all to have willingness and then intelligence to understand voting process and have enough intelligence to be able to find one`s way to polling booth, is all that is required as far as disenfrenchising is concerned. The nature itself will take out from voting people who are too dumb or too unwilling.

Re: # 48

Your ideas are in a way incorporated in Election law presently. Nobody can stand for election unless college graduate is towards that direction as laws made by general. So atleast elected people are not dumb though people who elect them may not be bright.

manto, can you comment on iqbals vision for pakista vis-a-vis jinnahs? to me it appears iqbal seems to inspire those with a vision differing from that of jinnah. this offcourse with caveat that i dont think jinnah really had much of a vision for pakistan, it was more like a legal brief, prepared to bolster his clients case.

Abey pukeresearch/achootennai etc,

Is this the bharat you idiots jump up and down about?

India Without the Slogans

I came to India looking forward to a place with a sense of momentum and hope. I knew India was still poor and frustrating as well as fascinating and exciting and full of great stories. I have found all those things, but I have also realized that parts of Africa have better services and infrastructure than India, and just as good prospects for development. It`s just that Africa hasn`t yet come up with a catchy slogan to sell itself. I hope it doesn`t. Better to be surprised than disappointed.

Re: # 45 Zee
Bottom line up-front: The average profit margin of a security on the Bombay Stock Exchange is 3 % points higher than on NYSE or . Follow the money, and you will get it! Everything else is talk. Cheap talk.
CIAO

From article:

``While in my view this idea is inherently flawed but it is clear that a majority of Muslims around the world agree with Iqbal`s idea, what they don`t agree with is Iqbal`s liberal interpretation of Islamic law and his readiness to do away with what they consider to be the central motif of islam.``

My question: And what is that central motif?

#32 by Mantolives on June 22, 2007 5:09am PT

yes..I need my ego massaged because India is seen as a politically unstable jihadi hotbed..

oh wait...that`s not India...it`s pakiland...

This is the worst article I have ever read on Iqbal`s poetry and political thought process. I think ylh has to eductae himself quite a bit before writing on the topic.

Naqsh #4 Most people in most societies--i.e. the common masses are simply too dumb to know what`s good for them and are like sheep and follow whatever their peers say.

Funny you of all people should say this - after all, arent you always referring to your spiritual heroes as if they are little gods.

Some kind of qualification (maybe an IQ test of some sort with those scoring less than 100 barred) needs to be built in so that ability and not just numbers are taken into account. After all the opinion of 100 morons does not have the same weight as one Einstein but in pure democracy the views of 100 idiots would hold sway.

The past 60 years of experience in Pakistan present good case studies on which to test your hypothesis: Thus, today, the ``morons`` of Pakistan instinctively understand the importance of the Rule of Law and thus turn out in the thousands to cheer the Chief Justice, while the ``elite`` Musharraf has proven to be deceiptful, lawless indivdual whom you could not trust with 5 rupees, leave alone the reins of power to the entire Pakistani nation.

HE #9 makes an important point: Iqbal`s ambivalence toward democracy is understandable. The 1920s and 30s were traumatic for the democracies because of the Great Depression...Perhaps if he had lived to see the end of WW2, this choice would have been easier to make for him.

And indeed, it is important to keep in mind a key advantage the average person has today over the most profound thinkers of the past - experience with what works and what does not. That is why it is important to use one`s common sense first and foremost, and not get carried away by the words, however inspiring and emotionally satisfying, of poets and philosophers of the past.

Here is a crystal ball prediction: Now this will turn into a discussion amongst Indians trying to massage their own egos.

I have said my part and I am done here. Have a nice day.

Re: # 32 Manto

``...I have said my part and I am done here...``

Aw...come on! Spew forth some `wisdom` so that we can chew it!

Re: # 32

Not really......We would prefer Pakis doing it for us........

My advice to those who want to re-imagine afresh the Pakistani nation`s identity.

Forget about Jinnah, forget Partition, forget Iqbal.

Do not think that re-construction of Pakistan would imply some sort of a reconstuction in Islam.

Do not waste your energies in trying to strengthen some theological principles whose fresh exegesis cannot match those of the mullahs.

Just struggle for one notion- i.e. secularism.

Forget all those illusions about some imaginary leadership of ummah - only then can one think about re-imagining Pakistan`s identity as a modern state.

Just struggle for turning Pakistan into a secular and multi cultural nation.

Re: # 28 Ballukhan

``...Just struggle for turning Pakistan into a secular and multi cultural nation.,,``

That is Mission Impossible VI

Re: # 29

Hello PewResearch,

You seem to have a crystal ball + ability to read from it.........What makes you think that Pakistan will not be a secular country.........like India..:)

Re: # 30 Chennai

``..What makes you think that Pakistan will not be a secular country.........like India..``

60 years of history (and 15 years of Pakistan prior to that) staring you at your face (with Bangladesh formation thrown in to boot!). Can you ignore that deliberate edifice of ignorance? I`ll put it another way as well: How much of your own money will you put on that happening in the next 5 years, given that it has not happened in the previous 60? If you give an answer more than USD 1000, contact me -- I will be happy to bet against you and we can get down to business
CIAO

Re: # 36

Listen my friend.......you seem to have a latent desire to see India & Pak reunite........banish the thought.......U guys will simply change the demographics of a place...
eg; We allow complete freedom to all cows and their ilk to freely traverse from kashmir to Kanyakumari even on our highways without stoping at Toll gates and other impediments.........

This would change on reunification and no self respecting Indian can tolerate that..:)))

Re: # 39 Chennai

``...you seem to have a latent desire to see India & Pak reunite...``

Quite the opposite. Don`t know how you concluded that I harbored such blasphemous thoughts! Nothing would delight me more than to see them wither on the vine!

Saala Kargil ki chattan pe to char gaya! Ab utrey ga kaise? Kind of sums up my sentiments for the whole Paki movement.

Re: # 41

Are you Indian..............

If yes, my sincere apologies on my comments on the bovine species......Do not issue a fatwa or the equivalent on my head.........:)))

Prima facie the idea of disenfranchsing some ppl is WRONG. I dont believe in proxy democracy. In effect Aasif is excluding poor and illiterate as non-stakeholders in a country.

Universal adult franchise is a MUST. They are as important stake holders as educated are in any country. After all, they pay indirect taxes (since they cant pay income tax) and they shud have a say in any setup.

Excellent article, YLH. Well thought out and very timely. Been missing you around here. :)

yasser,

an IQ of 100 is not perfect. As you know some maths Iäm sure you´ll recall that IQ tests follow --in theory at least--a normal distribution with 100 in the middle. So an IQ of 100 is standard (normal) and means your intellectual age is equal to your actual age. So an IQ of 100 means you are of average intelligence.

Setting this limit would mean that those with IQs less than 100 -i.e. people of below average intelligence don#t get to vote.

So i am not advocating a perfect standard -- that is, as you say, impossible.

Iqbal, at the end of his life, was a fairly traditional Sunni Muslim entirely devoted to the Prophet. His Farsi work from the end of his life is pretty much all about his longing for Madina...

As for his reformist tendencies I think some of his ideas were certainly interesting although some of his thought is clearly influenced by the orientalist approach of his day...

So we actually agree on a central part of your essay.

Manto mian,

(Iqbalian thought however has the promise and potential of giving Pakistan a higher purpose: that of unleashing an intellectual renaissance and reformation of the entire Islamic world. )

You will never give up the notion that Pakistan is the beacon of the Islamic world. You wud have made a great Indian Foreign Minister of th 1960s and 70s when India was making similar claims about its leadership position in the Third World.

(but only after guaranteeing that every citizen of Pakistan, regardless of religion, caste, creed or gender has equal rights and opportunities. Only when we`ve put our house in order)

Now that is wholeheartedly welcome.

Regards

Till the people of Pak to a gr8 extent and of India about 12.36% lesser want masihas and avataars to come and save them they are going to be disappointed.

BTW the messiah cult in Pak pales (and pales so badly that it would throw out its burqa and clothes to get a tan) in front of the Messiah cult of the Congress with the Nehru Gandhus as its deities.

Somebody get me a barf bag. I have not felt so sick in my life after drinking desi as I have
after spending time with some kangressi chamchas yesterday evening.

It is seriously not just embarassing but ashaming and damning so as to what kind of fkrs we have produced with this scum socialist system of the NG`s.

Vaise we try and tell the pakis to form a nationhood away from Anti India and Islam but behenchooooood I think for almost about an eight of this country (half the congresses vote share) the concept of this nation is the kangress the phamily and their gr8ness and NO not in that order. Add another eight for the commies and equal amounts for socialists, regionalists and casteists and I think we are getting a construct of a country in which a fairly sizeable peoples concept of the nation is not absolute but relative to the identity relentlessly propagated by the political party of choice, imposition or happenstance.

When I read this article I thought manto is spin doctoring but then I thought every country needs a philosophical bedrock to stand upon and maybe he is in favour of that construct being maybe Jinnah or Iqbal then dont think there is a problem.

Maybe Jinnah was an astrologer and he knew what kind of greater scum the kongressis would the congress become into it is no wonder that he wanted separation.

And I think I want concentration camps where to send these people to.

Sanatani

FromAyaz Amir Todays dawn the last line is important:

But is it right and proper that the interests of 160 million people, if not more, should be subor