Allama Iqbal- Is he still relevant?

Folio,

Thanks for your concern addressed to pew-research... Unlike yourself, Pew research suffers from deep seated insecurities about India. (A proud Indian would never take pride in 1 billion strong India over taking 80 million strong Germany in consumption in 2025). The best thing to do is ignore such people.

Srinagar...
I don`t care about the demo. Just see the background...



and compare that with the High court Bar Building in Multan...

Manto,

Balay sahib is irrelevant. The islamist tried to promote him against the progressives like Faiz and Jalib and failed.

Balay bhai was never consistent in his message. He suffered from drastic mode swings. He wrote letters to viceroys when he was promoting himself for the knighthood. Once he got that, he immersed himself in the another dream.

I am not sure his Persian was actually the modern Persian, even though someone posted some aetullah from Iran`s article here.

Dear all,

This article is muddled because this actually cobbled together from five (05) ilogs I wrote as part of a serious effort to address Sadna`s questions about Iqbal and democracy. Later I realised, as I have on several occasions, that the person in question had no interest in honest dialogue but was out to vent her own issues, whatever they may be. I think it is a shame that some poignant posts by echoboom have been blanked out. I have read them on his page and you may do the same.

Naqshbandi,

A perfect IQ or a perfect standard is impossible. Hence it is undesirable. My attempt was never to discuss whether democracy was good or bad... we`ve seen philosophers and intellectuals make a mess of things in the past. This discussion is precisely what I consider to be irrelevant from Iqbal. What is relevant... is his idea of Islamic reform. It is this idea - if it takes off- that will ultimately make Iqbalian thought relevant to Pakistanis...

You may be correct that Iqbal is higher than any nation state- his concern is man. But please note that this is precisely this kind of lofty idealism that I am always suspicious of... the approach should be: Your country/nation-state etc is your Bar council, where you enrolled to practise law. My concern is Iqbal`s relevance to Pakistan alone.

btw, what is the second line here

``Sultan-e-jumhoor ka ata hai zamana``

Jo something nazar aiy unhain gira do. or whatever. Maybe echo can help out here.

Now compare that with
Mohiudin`s

Lo surkh sawera aata hai azadi ka azadi
dekhoo purcham lehrata hai azad ka azad ka.

FromAyaz Amir Todays dawn the last line is important:

But is it right and proper that the interests of 160 million people, if not more, should be subordinated to the interests of one man? Is any individual greater than Pakistan? This is what makes the lawyers’ movement and Chief Justice Iftikhar Mohammad Chaudhry’s petition before the Supreme Court so important. For on their outcome we will get an answer to the question whether in Pakistan, in Fakhruddin Ebrahim’s words, ``the rule of law will prevail or the rule of the gun?``

I mean does anyone think this statement to be true there is in my opinion no rule of gun (except bhatta and taliban kind) in Pak the army rule at best can be explained as acquisesence of the absence of rule of constitution. The army did not massacre thousands of people to take power who were protesting for democracy when Nawaz was overthrown.

When the majority condone this they have no moral right to say that they are for democracy rule of law and one man one vote.

Bulleya has written its is a crisis of incumbency and I think he is correct.

For Bharat if democracy means the army returns to the barracks and boardrooms it is a good thing but not if it returns to adveturism and Jihad.

Sanatani

Till the people of Pak to a gr8 extent and of India about 12.36% lesser want masihas and avataars to come and save them they are going to be disappointed.

BTW the messiah cult in Pak pales (and pales so badly that it would throw out its burqa and clothes to get a tan) in front of the Messiah cult of the Congress with the Nehru Gandhus as its deities.

Somebody get me a barf bag. I have not felt so sick in my life after drinking desi as I have
after spending time with some kangressi chamchas yesterday evening.

It is seriously not just embarassing but ashaming and damning so as to what kind of fkrs we have produced with this scum socialist system of the NG`s.

Vaise we try and tell the pakis to form a nationhood away from Anti India and Islam but behenchooooood I think for almost about an eight of this country (half the congresses vote share) the concept of this nation is the kangress the phamily and their gr8ness and NO not in that order. Add another eight for the commies and equal amounts for socialists, regionalists and casteists and I think we are getting a construct of a country in which a fairly sizeable peoples concept of the nation is not absolute but relative to the identity relentlessly propagated by the political party of choice, imposition or happenstance.

When I read this article I thought manto is spin doctoring but then I thought every country needs a philosophical bedrock to stand upon and maybe he is in favour of that construct being maybe Jinnah or Iqbal then dont think there is a problem.

Maybe Jinnah was an astrologer and he knew what kind of greater scum the kongressis would the congress become into it is no wonder that he wanted separation.

And I think I want concentration camps where to send these people to.

Sanatani

Manto mian,

(Iqbalian thought however has the promise and potential of giving Pakistan a higher purpose: that of unleashing an intellectual renaissance and reformation of the entire Islamic world. )

You will never give up the notion that Pakistan is the beacon of the Islamic world. You wud have made a great Indian Foreign Minister of th 1960s and 70s when India was making similar claims about its leadership position in the Third World.

(but only after guaranteeing that every citizen of Pakistan, regardless of religion, caste, creed or gender has equal rights and opportunities. Only when we`ve put our house in order)

Now that is wholeheartedly welcome.

Regards

yasser,

an IQ of 100 is not perfect. As you know some maths Iäm sure you´ll recall that IQ tests follow --in theory at least--a normal distribution with 100 in the middle. So an IQ of 100 is standard (normal) and means your intellectual age is equal to your actual age. So an IQ of 100 means you are of average intelligence.

Setting this limit would mean that those with IQs less than 100 -i.e. people of below average intelligence don#t get to vote.

So i am not advocating a perfect standard -- that is, as you say, impossible.

Iqbal, at the end of his life, was a fairly traditional Sunni Muslim entirely devoted to the Prophet. His Farsi work from the end of his life is pretty much all about his longing for Madina...

As for his reformist tendencies I think some of his ideas were certainly interesting although some of his thought is clearly influenced by the orientalist approach of his day...

So we actually agree on a central part of your essay.

Excellent article, YLH. Well thought out and very timely. Been missing you around here. :)

Prima facie the idea of disenfranchsing some ppl is WRONG. I dont believe in proxy democracy. In effect Aasif is excluding poor and illiterate as non-stakeholders in a country.

Universal adult franchise is a MUST. They are as important stake holders as educated are in any country. After all, they pay indirect taxes (since they cant pay income tax) and they shud have a say in any setup.

My advice to those who want to re-imagine afresh the Pakistani nation`s identity.

Forget about Jinnah, forget Partition, forget Iqbal.

Do not think that re-construction of Pakistan would imply some sort of a reconstuction in Islam.

Do not waste your energies in trying to strengthen some theological principles whose fresh exegesis cannot match those of the mullahs.

Just struggle for one notion- i.e. secularism.

Forget all those illusions about some imaginary leadership of ummah - only then can one think about re-imagining Pakistan`s identity as a modern state.

Just struggle for turning Pakistan into a secular and multi cultural nation.

Re: # 28 Ballukhan

``...Just struggle for turning Pakistan into a secular and multi cultural nation.,,``

That is Mission Impossible VI

Re: # 29

Hello PewResearch,

You seem to have a crystal ball + ability to read from it.........What makes you think that Pakistan will not be a secular country.........like India..:)

Re: # 15

Pew, U have a point but the context is not right. Hope I am clearer.

Yasser, U can ignore anybody u dont like. Btw, is this article dedicated to Sadna (coz written as a response to Sadna`s posers)?

Anyway u are less raucous here.

Here is a crystal ball prediction: Now this will turn into a discussion amongst Indians trying to massage their own egos.

I have said my part and I am done here. Have a nice day.