Allama Iqbal- Is he still relevant?

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The kind of ``free flowing`` democracy as is claimed to exist in the US with slogans about an ``end of ideology``, is actually an ``ideology`` that promotes the status quo and that manipulates individual identity frames by colonizing people`s ``life-world``. It is no democracy when people vote to get themselves slaughtered, therefore we need an ``ideology`` that is true to the spirit of democracy, one whose basic premise is ``equity based on justice`` before any ``voting`` can prove democracy. Follow the discussion on the Gauss thread by Gill, the article is reproduced on my personal profile section of Chowk...

This is a well-balanced and insightful article on Iqbal`s views concerning the issues facing Pakistanis. While not arguing with the conclusion that Iqbalian thought however has the promise and potential of giving Pakistan a higher purpose:, I would say that there are simpler and more direct ways to give Pakistan a higher purpose than the Iqbalist ``pidram sultan bood`` (``father was a king``): that is, to simply accept the basic principles on which the most progressive societies in the world have flourished.

These are first and foremost, the principles of respect for the basic rights of all individuals, particularly the right to elect the national and local political leaders, and the freedom to think and to speak.

No need to seek Iqbal`s or anyone else`s approval for these principles. These principles stand by themselves, and dont need any literary sources or intellectual argments to support them. Although there is no shortage of both, particularly when one looks outside the narrow confines of muslim history or indian history.

A muddled essay but an interesting topic. Iqbal is much bigger than Pakistan or any other nation state. His object was Man (and specifically the Muslim Man) and how he can raise Himself to his highest spiritual and material potential.

I don`t think the ideas of such a lofty idealist like Iqbal can be applied to a constitution as his ideas were fluid. However, they --like much else of the greatest work of the greatest thinkers--were certainly what would be termed Elitist in today`s parlance and, personally, I don`t think there`s anything wrong with that. He wanted people to strive towards the highest possible goal: gnosis of Allah (God) whilst simultaneously being great in this worldly life too. In that sense it was a return to the Prophetic message but packaged in poetic language relevant for his age. He wrote mostly in Farsi--and certainly his magnum opus--because he wanted to reach a MUCH larger audience of Muslims than the Urdu speakers alone.

Nietzsche too was an elitist...

Iqbal`s critique of democracy is not without merit--I am a supporter of democracy but I don`t think everyone should be allowed to vote. Most people in most societies--i.e. the common masses are simply too dumb to know what`s good for them and are like sheep and follow whatever their peers say. Some kind of qualification (maybe an IQ test of some sort with those scoring less than 100 barred) needs to be built in so that ability and not just numbers are taken into account. After all the opinion of 100 morons does not have the same weight as one Einstein but in pure democracy the views of 100 idiots would hold sway.

Iqbal`s poem, ``Jamhuriyat (Democracy)``

the translation from the allama iqbal official website allamaiqbal.com:

Democracy:
By some European sage
This secret was revealed,
Though men endowed with sense,
Keep points like this concealed.

Democracy means a mode
To rule the common man
No doubt, they count the votes,
But conduct do not scan.


Who was this ``European sage`` -- I think Nietzsche.

after all, most people are content with just eating,drinking and fcuking. (Nothing wrong with any of those things per se but not when all your energies are solely devoted to these things and you can do
aught else.)

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#4 naqshabandi

{Some kind of qualification (maybe an IQ test of some sort with those scoring less than 100 barred) needs to be built in so that ability and not just numbers are taken into account. After all the opinion of 100 morons does not have the same weight as one Einstein but in pure democracy the views of 100 idiots would hold sway. }

this is an interesting idea. what do you think of disenfranchising children of cousin-marriages? or maybe giving them extra votes?

Iqbal`s ambivalence toward democracy is understandable. The 1920s and 30s were traumatic for the democracies because of the Great Depression. Dictatorial regimes especially Germany and Japan witnessed unprecedented growth in industrial and military power during this period.

It seems Iqbal couldn`t make up his mind whether he preferred the freedoms of democracy to the economic efficiency of dictatorship, or vice versa. Perhaps if he had lived to see the end of WW2, this choice would have been easier to make for him.

Yasser,

I think this discussion is incomplete without an analysis of Iqbal`s concept of Khudi. This concept is equally applicable to an individual as to a nation. In Asrar-e-Khudi, he has described the various stages of a person graduating to higher levels of self-realization and self-perfection. These stages suggest that the self-conscious and conscientious individual/nation is essentially an ``evolutionary`` creature.

This evolutionary nature of Khudi lends itself to application in democracy, governance, religious reconstruction. Because these are evolutionary in nature too.

Jahan-e-taaza ki afkar-e-taaza se hai namood,
Ke Sang-o-Khisht se hotay nahin jahan paida

Endurance and unity are essential for self-actualization because Iqbal believed the Khudi of one individual reinforces the Khudi of others in society. When one person defies a military general for the sake of his principles, others in society also follow suit and thereby validate the defiance of the first person.

more importantly, is jinnah relevant?

Reward for killing

ISLAMABAD: Pakistani traders on Thursday announced a reward of Rs 10 million for anyone who beheads Salman Rushdie, following Britain’s decision to award the novelist a knighthood. The announcement came during a protest by 200 traders at Aabpara market, Islamabad, an AFP photographer said. “We will give Rs 10 million to anyone who beheads Rushdie,” the secretary general of the Islamabad traders association, Ajmal Baluch, told the cheering crowd. He also called on Islamic countries to boycott British products in protest at the honour to Rushdie, the author of The Satanic Verses. afp

New Rushdie protests after Britain defends award

ISLAMABAD (AFP) - Muslim anger flared Thursday after Britain defended Salman Rushdie’s knighthood, with fresh protests against the novelist and Pakistani clerics bestowing a title on Osama bin Laden in response.

Hundreds of demonstrators took to the streets in Indian Kashmir and Pakistan, while Indonesia, the world’s most populous Muslim nation, criticised the timing of the honour. ...

The Pakistani Ulema Council, a private body that claims to be the biggest of its kind in the country with 2,000 scholars, said it had given Al-Qaeda chief Bin Laden its “highest title for a Muslim warrior.”

“We are pleased to award the title of Saifullah (sword of Allah) to Osama bin Laden after the British government’s decision to bestow the title of ‘Sir’ on blasphemer Rushdie,” council chairman Maulana Tahir Ashrafi told AFP.

Bin Laden has been blamed for the September 11, 2001 attacks on New York and Washington that killed nearly 3,000 people. He is widely believed to be hiding on the Pakistan-Afghanistan border.

Later Afzal Sahi — the speaker of the Punjab province assembly and a member of the Pakistan Muslim League party that backs President Pervez Musharraf — said during a debate that he would obey his duty as a Muslim to murder Rushdie. “If this man comes in front of me I will definitely kill him,” he said.

Manto: a helpful tip...stay away from KFC tomorrow....

YLH:
This all that matters:



and


Lahore protestors burning the Danish flag after cartoons were published in Jyllands Posten

and


Protesters in Lahore burn the Union Jack.
Photo: AP

Iqbal`s poetry (lofty words, but mediocre ideas) is as irrelevant as the Constitution of Pakistan. Got my point?
Now, go and make your life a bit more useful
CIAO

Here are some additional pictures to add more context:




and

Pew,

U cant wait for a couple of days till the subjet/article is discussed? Are u a one-trick pony or an illiterate who cant read the text and context of the article?

Re: # 14 Folio
I like cutting to the chase. Thanks

Considering as Naqshi says the majority is satisfied with food, clothing & shelter & would be happy to be left alone, democracy doesnt have that much to recommend it (except for the alternative!) Heard a guy recently who has studied the wisdom of the collective on the internet & came to the conclusion that the collective is generally stupid.
Its not elitism to note this just realism.
Democracy certainly does not confer some magical moral authority on a people as many have come to believe.

Folio,

Thanks for your concern addressed to pew-research... Unlike yourself, Pew research suffers from deep seated insecurities about India. (A proud Indian would never take pride in 1 billion strong India over taking 80 million strong Germany in consumption in 2025). The best thing to do is ignore such people.

Srinagar...
I don`t care about the demo. Just see the background...



and compare that with the High court Bar Building in Multan...

Manto,

Balay sahib is irrelevant. The islamist tried to promote him against the progressives like Faiz and Jalib and failed.

Balay bhai was never consistent in his message. He suffered from drastic mode swings. He wrote letters to viceroys when he was promoting himself for the knighthood. Once he got that, he immersed himself in the another dream.

I am not sure his Persian was actually the modern Persian, even though someone posted some aetullah from Iran`s article here.

Dear all,

This article is muddled because this actually cobbled together from five (05) ilogs I wrote as part of a serious effort to address Sadna`s questions about Iqbal and democracy. Later I realised, as I have on several occasions, that the person in question had no interest in honest dialogue but was out to vent her own issues, whatever they may be. I think it is a shame that some poignant posts by echoboom have been blanked out. I have read them on his page and you may do the same.

Naqshbandi,

A perfect IQ or a perfect standard is impossible. Hence it is undesirable. My attempt was never to discuss whether democracy was good or bad... we`ve seen philosophers and intellectuals make a mess of things in the past. This discussion is precisely what I consider to be irrelevant from Iqbal. What is relevant... is his idea of Islamic reform. It is this idea - if it takes off- that will ultimately make Iqbalian thought relevant to Pakistanis...

You may be correct that Iqbal is higher than any nation state- his concern is man. But please note that this is precisely this kind of lofty idealism that I am always suspicious of... the approach should be: Your country/nation-state etc is your Bar council, where you enrolled to practise law. My concern is Iqbal`s relevance to Pakistan alone.

btw, what is the second line here

``Sultan-e-jumhoor ka ata hai zamana``

Jo something nazar aiy unhain gira do. or whatever. Maybe echo can help out here.

Now compare that with
Mohiudin`s

Lo surkh sawera aata hai azadi ka azadi
dekhoo purcham lehrata hai azad ka azad ka.

FromAyaz Amir Todays dawn the last line is important:

But is it right and proper that the interests of 160 million people, if not more, should be subordinated to the interests of one man? Is any individual greater than Pakistan? This is what makes the lawyers’ movement and Chief Justice Iftikhar Mohammad Chaudhry’s petition before the Supreme Court so important. For on their outcome we will get an answer to the question whether in Pakistan, in Fakhruddin Ebrahim’s words, ``the rule of law will prevail or the rule of the gun?``

I mean does anyone think this statement to be true there is in my opinion no rule of gun (except bhatta and taliban kind) in Pak the army rule at best can be explained as acquisesence of the absence of rule of constitution. The army did not massacre thousands of people to take power who were protesting for democracy when Nawaz was overthrown.

When the majority condone this they have no moral right to say that they are for democracy rule of law and one man one vote.

Bulleya has written its is a crisis of incumbency and I think he is correct.

For Bharat if democracy means the army returns to the barracks and boardrooms it is a good thing but not if it returns to adveturism and Jihad.

Sanatani

Till the people of Pak to a gr8 extent and of India about 12.36% lesser want masihas and avataars to come and save them they are going to be disappointed.

BTW the messiah cult in Pak pales (and pales so badly that it would throw out its burqa and clothes to get a tan) in front of the Messiah cult of the Congress with the Nehru Gandhus as its deities.

Somebody get me a barf bag. I have not felt so sick in my life after drinking desi as I have
after spending time with some kangressi chamchas yesterday evening.

It is seriously not just embarassing but ashaming and damning so as to what kind of fkrs we have produced with this scum socialist system of the NG`s.

Vaise we try and tell the pakis to form a nationhood away from Anti India and Islam but behenchooooood I think for almost about an eight of this country (half the congresses vote share) the concept of this nation is the kangress the phamily and their gr8ness and NO not in that order. Add another eight for the commies and equal amounts for socialists, regionalists and casteists and I think we are getting a construct of a country in which a fairly sizeable peoples concept of the nation is not absolute but relative to the identity relentlessly propagated by the political party of choice, imposition or happenstance.

When I read this article I thought manto is spin doctoring but then I thought every country needs a philosophical bedrock to stand upon and maybe he is in favour of that construct being maybe Jinnah or Iqbal then dont think there is a problem.

Maybe Jinnah was an astrologer and he knew what kind of greater scum the kongressis would the congress become into it is no wonder that he wanted separation.

And I think I want concentration camps where to send these people to.

Sanatani

Manto mian,

(Iqbalian thought however has the promise and potential of giving Pakistan a higher purpose: that of unleashing an intellectual renaissance and reformation of the entire Islamic world. )

You will never give up the notion that Pakistan is the beacon of the Islamic world. You wud have made a great Indian Foreign Minister of th 1960s and 70s when India was making similar claims about its leadership position in the Third World.

(but only after guaranteeing that every citizen of Pakistan, regardless of religion, caste, creed or gender has equal rights and opportunities. Only when we`ve put our house in order)

Now that is wholeheartedly welcome.

Regards

yasser,

an IQ of 100 is not perfect. As you know some maths Iäm sure you´ll recall that IQ tests follow --in theory at least--a normal distribution with 100 in the middle. So an IQ of 100 is standard (normal) and means your intellectual age is equal to your actual age. So an IQ of 100 means you are of average intelligence.

Setting this limit would mean that those with IQs less than 100 -i.e. people of below average intelligence don#t get to vote.

So i am not advocating a perfect standard -- that is, as you say, impossible.

Iqbal, at the end of his life, was a fairly traditional Sunni Muslim entirely devoted to the Prophet. His Farsi work from the end of his life is pretty much all about his longing for Madina...

As for his reformist tendencies I think some of his ideas were certainly interesting although some of his thought is clearly influenced by the orientalist approach of his day...

So we actually agree on a central part of your essay.

Excellent article, YLH. Well thought out and very timely. Been missing you around here. :)

Prima facie the idea of disenfranchsing some ppl is WRONG. I dont believe in proxy democracy. In effect Aasif is excluding poor and illiterate as non-stakeholders in a country.

Universal adult franchise is a MUST. They are as important stake holders as educated are in any country. After all, they pay indirect taxes (since they cant pay income tax) and they shud have a say in any setup.

My advice to those who want to re-imagine afresh the Pakistani nation`s identity.

Forget about Jinnah, forget Partition, forget Iqbal.

Do not think that re-construction of Pakistan would imply some sort of a reconstuction in Islam.

Do not waste your energies in trying to strengthen some theological principles whose fresh exegesis cannot match those of the mullahs.

Just struggle for one notion- i.e. secularism.

Forget all those illusions about some imaginary leadership of ummah - only then can one think about re-imagining Pakistan`s identity as a modern state.

Just struggle for turning Pakistan into a secular and multi cultural nation.

Re: # 28 Ballukhan

``...Just struggle for turning Pakistan into a secular and multi cultural nation.,,``

That is Mission Impossible VI

Re: # 29

Hello PewResearch,

You seem to have a crystal ball + ability to read from it.........What makes you think that Pakistan will not be a secular country.........like India..:)

Re: # 15

Pew, U have a point but the context is not right. Hope I am clearer.

Yasser, U can ignore anybody u dont like. Btw, is this article dedicated to Sadna (coz written as a response to Sadna`s posers)?

Anyway u are less raucous here.

Here is a crystal ball prediction: Now this will turn into a discussion amongst Indians trying to massage their own egos.

I have said my part and I am done here. Have a nice day.

Re: # 32

Not really......We would prefer Pakis doing it for us........

HE #9 makes an important point: Iqbal`s ambivalence toward democracy is understandable. The 1920s and 30s were traumatic for the democracies because of the Great Depression...Perhaps if he had lived to see the end of WW2, this choice would have been easier to make for him.

And indeed, it is important to keep in mind a key advantage the average person has today over the most profound thinkers of the past - experience with what works and what does not. That is why it is important to use one`s common sense first and foremost, and not get carried away by the words, however inspiring and emotionally satisfying, of poets and philosophers of the past.

Naqsh #4 Most people in most societies--i.e. the common masses are simply too dumb to know what`s good for them and are like sheep and follow whatever their peers say.

Funny you of all people should say this - after all, arent you always referring to your spiritual heroes as if they are little gods.

Some kind of qualification (maybe an IQ test of some sort with those scoring less than 100 barred) needs to be built in so that ability and not just numbers are taken into account. After all the opinion of 100 morons does not have the same weight as one Einstein but in pure democracy the views of 100 idiots would hold sway.

The past 60 years of experience in Pakistan present good case studies on which to test your hypothesis: Thus, today, the ``morons`` of Pakistan instinctively understand the importance of the Rule of Law and thus turn out in the thousands to cheer the Chief Justice, while the ``elite`` Musharraf has proven to be deceiptful, lawless indivdual whom you could not trust with 5 rupees, leave alone the reins of power to the entire Pakistani nation.

Re: # 30 Chennai

``..What makes you think that Pakistan will not be a secular country.........like India..``

60 years of history (and 15 years of Pakistan prior to that) staring you at your face (with Bangladesh formation thrown in to boot!). Can you ignore that deliberate edifice of ignorance? I`ll put it another way as well: How much of your own money will you put on that happening in the next 5 years, given that it has not happened in the previous 60? If you give an answer more than USD 1000, contact me -- I will be happy to bet against you and we can get down to business
CIAO

This is the worst article I have ever read on Iqbal`s poetry and political thought process. I think ylh has to eductae himself quite a bit before writing on the topic.

#32 by Mantolives on June 22, 2007 5:09am PT

yes..I need my ego massaged because India is seen as a politically unstable jihadi hotbed..

oh wait...that`s not India...it`s pakiland...

Re: # 36

Listen my friend.......you seem to have a latent desire to see India & Pak reunite........banish the thought.......U guys will simply change the demographics of a place...
eg; We allow complete freedom to all cows and their ilk to freely traverse from kashmir to Kanyakumari even on our highways without stoping at Toll gates and other impediments.........

This would change on reunification and no self respecting Indian can tolerate that..:)))

Re: # 21
btw, what is the second line here

``Sultan-e-jumhoor ka ata hai zamana``

Jo something nazar aiy unhain gira do

I think it`s

jo naqsh-e-kohan tum ko nazar aye mita do.

Re: # 39 Chennai

``...you seem to have a latent desire to see India & Pak reunite...``

Quite the opposite. Don`t know how you concluded that I harbored such blasphemous thoughts! Nothing would delight me more than to see them wither on the vine!

Saala Kargil ki chattan pe to char gaya! Ab utrey ga kaise? Kind of sums up my sentiments for the whole Paki movement.

Re: # 32 Manto

``...I have said my part and I am done here...``

Aw...come on! Spew forth some `wisdom` so that we can chew it!

Re: # 41

Are you Indian..............

If yes, my sincere apologies on my comments on the bovine species......Do not issue a fatwa or the equivalent on my head.........:)))

From article:

``While in my view this idea is inherently flawed but it is clear that a majority of Muslims around the world agree with Iqbal`s idea, what they don`t agree with is Iqbal`s liberal interpretation of Islamic law and his readiness to do away with what they consider to be the central motif of islam.``

My question: And what is that central motif?

Abey pukeresearch/achootennai etc,

Is this the bharat you idiots jump up and down about?

India Without the Slogans

I came to India looking forward to a place with a sense of momentum and hope. I knew India was still poor and frustrating as well as fascinating and exciting and full of great stories. I have found all those things, but I have also realized that parts of Africa have better services and infrastructure than India, and just as good prospects for development. It`s just that Africa hasn`t yet come up with a catchy slogan to sell itself. I hope it doesn`t. Better to be surprised than disappointed.

manto, can you comment on iqbals vision for pakista vis-a-vis jinnahs? to me it appears iqbal seems to inspire those with a vision differing from that of jinnah. this offcourse with caveat that i dont think jinnah really had much of a vision for pakistan, it was more like a legal brief, prepared to bolster his clients case.

Re: # 45 Zee
Bottom line up-front: The average profit margin of a security on the Bombay Stock Exchange is 3 % points higher than on NYSE or . Follow the money, and you will get it! Everything else is talk. Cheap talk.
CIAO

[#25 by Naqshbandi on June 22, 2007 2:42am PT

...IQ tests follow --in theory at least--a normal distribution with 100 in the middle...]

Gauss Bhaiyya idhar bhi aa dhamake. Koi baat nahee. Welcome.

So what is standard deviation of a standardized IQ test? If the IQ score=0 is at -3*ó then it should be at 33+1/3.

I think so disenfranchizing any people is a bad idea. But if you must use IQ test scores then using 100 as cutoff point is a bad idea. It will disenfrenchise 50% population. At +/-1*ó there are natural points on Gauss`s distribution. At these points are the pdf curve`s two Points of Inflexion. All other points are ``Man Made``. Like 95% etc are all man made. If one must use the distribution of IQ scores in a population one may use (mean -1*ó). At least that way more then 50% will be vote eligible.

But I think letting the nature biase the population by requiring every willing voter first of all to have willingness and then intelligence to understand voting process and have enough intelligence to be able to find one`s way to polling booth, is all that is required as far as disenfrenchising is concerned. The nature itself will take out from voting people who are too dumb or too unwilling.

{``Allama Iqbal- Is he still relevant? ``}

Yasser,
Hi, all I can say is:

TeghoN ke sayye men Hum palkar jawaaN huwen heN
AasaaN nahiN mitaana naamo nishaaN hamara

OR

Baatil se Darney walle, ay aasmaN nahiN hum
So baar kar chuka he tu imtihaaN hamara

Re: # 49

Salim Sahib:

Bahut khoob..
Yeh shairi bhi seekhi aapne.

All I can say that in view of current Pakistani politics , Imran Khan is fits in to that ideology of Sir, Allama Iqbal`s ideology of Shaheen...........................

Long live Imran Khan, Shaheen of Pakistani democracy............

I was never quite impressed by Sir, Allama Iqbal`s ideology, but, recently I started reading his few poetry books, and I realized Pakistan needs his kind of ideology more than ever....And his ideology is not only relevant for current Pakistani chaos, but, is vital,if Pakistanis wish to survive..........

We need another Shaheen like Quaid_e-Azam.................

And Imran Khan fits in to that picture perfect...........



Allama Iqbal got his inspirations from baba Khushaal Khan Khattack...........and I can safely say, Khan Baba was the actual Shaheen man........................

Sorry, zeemax..............

I was never quite impressed by Sir, Allama Iqbal`s ideology, but, recently I started reading his few poetry books, and I realized Pakistan needs his kind of ideology more than ever....And his ideology is not only relevant for current Pakistani chaos, but, is vital,if Pakistanis wish to survive..........

We need another Shaheen like Quaid_e-Azam.................

And Imran Khan fits in to that picture perfect...........



Long live, our Shaheen, Imran Khan................Imran Khan zinda bad..............

while people dabate Iqbal`s relevance, Jamia Hafza `revolutionaries` resort to action again , this time kidnapping Chinese from an Acupuncture centre in Islamabad.

What is ore relevant today, shayeri or laaThi??

inbred retards protesting Sir Salman Rushdie







mushy`s effigy gets burnt even at anti-rushdie rallies....it`s like mushy is the new America..



he looks really really constipated..

Allamah Sahib himself was knighted by the British, of course...

I wish that the minority of Wahabi extremists who call themselves Muslims and use Islam to gain political points would realise the harm they are doing to the image of Muslims worldwide when they start protesting and burning books at the most trivial of things. Rushdie got a knighthood. So what? Get over it. If you don`t like his books,just don`t buy them.

He is a British citizen and the Brits have a right to honour him if they want; I don`t like the guy after he wrote Satanic Verses but I think this reaction is unjustified.

If Muslims hadn`t given him so much prominence the idiot would now be a forgotten novelist or someone most people outside of literary circles had not even heard of!

arjun,
here are some urophiliac hindu retards protesting against m f hussain --the INDIAN artist:

Re: # 56 Naqsh

You are a wise man, and an atypical Muslim

naqshbandi #56 good point. I tried reading his book to see what the fuss was about, and found it to be so dull i stopped reading after three pages. Like all bores, khotay da sir rushdie is trying to get attention by writing articles ridiculing people`s religious feelings - just like on chowk where the more stupid the poster, the more insulting his posts to some community since that is the only way anyone will pay attention to him.

It is these jahil irani mullahs, who by issuing the fatwa, gave this bore so much prominence. if they had not done so, no one would have heard of rushdie. and now the pakistani mullahs and the half-brained son of zia-ul-haq are making fools out of themselves and giving this khotay da sir even more attention.

From Tom Friedman`s NYT opinion piece:

``But since the Islamic parties have monopolized the mosques and the authoritarian regimes have monopolized the public square, anyone trying to articulate an Arab Fourth Way today “is competing against either God or the state — and between God and the state, what room is left for secular democrats?” asked Palestinian pollster Khalil Shikaki.
Only weeds can grow there — small nihilist weeds, like Fatah al Islam in Lebanon or Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia in Iraq or Islamic Jihad in Gaza. And they are growing.``

Sums up the way ahead for Pakstan. Mend your ways - little time left!

Re: # 56 Naqsh

Khomeini was no Wahabbi - he started it with the infamous Rushdie fatwa

#59 by tahmed32,

Did the US cultural centre attack in Islamabad come before or after the Iranian fatwa? I think it was before.

#53 {``We need another Shaheen like Quaid_e-Azam.................
And Imran Khan fits in to that picture perfect........... ``}

Zeena,
Imran Khan is more like what the Shaheen left on the rock. :)

#57 by Naqshbandi on June 23, 2007 6:49am PT

yes...that`s the same thing as a million $ reward for rushdie`s head...or the speaker of the punjab assembly saying he`d kill rushdie himself..or the minister of religion of the land of the pure saying suicide bombings against rushdie are justified...

Arjun, now go easy on Naqsh who is a wise man, and very atypical.

he`s full of it...like all pakis, he`s got an amazing ability to delude himself by making ridiculous comparisons that only muslims/pakis buy...

capt clueless tried to pull that after 9/11 too...told us the real problem in the world was hindu terrorism because of the tamil tigers...posted a bunch of material to prove it...problem was, nobody else bought it..pakis were deported in bulk and he`s now cooling his heels in canuckistan....

Re: # 64

well actually the such peaceful hindus have given him death threats and ransacked his home which have forced him to leave india and live abroad.

so what`s the difference. and the leader of the hindus who was at the forefront of such attacks was bal thackeray who is a politician too (actually a gangster but in the guise of a politician).

and wasn`t deepa mehta/mira nair also forced to film Water in Nepal after hindu fanatics burnt down the sets of her film in Benares?

arjun you uncircumcised phallus, when hindu fanatics burn christians alive or kill muslims it is not terrorism according to you. i dont support muslim extremists either but you are the one who is deluded. the reason hindu terrorism doesnt make the same headlines as islamic terrorism most of the time is that you guys haven`t got balls to do anything to anyone other than helpless preachers and women and children. even though it is totally unislamic, to gve your life for a cause in a suicide bomb actually takes balls. something you vegetarian hindus lack. otherwise you wouldn`t have been the whipping boys of history...you should actually thank the british who, by ruling india and overthrowing the muslim mughal rulers, gave you your first taste of freedom in about a millenium.

`comparisons only the muslims/pakis buy` -- bollocks! if you read papers like the london guardian and the independent you would see that they condemn hindu terrorism as strongly as sny other terrorism.

because of that half-naked fakir [thanks hamidm] gandhu, sorry, gandhi, and some horny gurus like maharishi ganesh or whatever [the one with 100 rolls royces] who told gullible rich westerners in the 60s and 70s that enlightenment was via getting stoned and having orgies, people in the west have this false impression of hinduism as a peace loving religion.

also it is all about real-politick. if the hinduis actually threatened western interests you could bet your bottom dollar that they would be demonised as much as muslims overall are becoming even though no muslim party when in power has committed atrocities like the shiv sainiks did to muslims in gujarat. after all these same terrorist wahabistas were being lauded as freedom fighters and mujahideen by the very same media when they were fighting the soviets.

so you might be able to fool the innocent and trusting people of the naive west who don`t know your lulli-kat saffron realities but you cannot fool us cos we lived side by side with you for 1000 years. sayings such as `bughal mein choRee munh mein Ram Ram` didn`t just come out of nowhere.

btw i dont mean to offend anyone but arjun is such a prat that he needs to be reminded of some home truths.

There we go again..........the Pakis slugging it out amongst themselves on a non-issue........

the next Prez of pakistan will be decided by Bushy.....period.......no amount of raving, ranting & wishful thinking is gonna change that..........

Bushy the brave has also taken Altaf Hussain the fearless into consideration.......

get a life guys........before its too late.........and the dole from USA stops.........

Re: # 69

``also it is all about real-politick. if the hinduis actually threatened western interests you could bet your bottom dollar that they would be demonised as much as muslims overall are becoming even though no muslim party when in power has committed atrocities like the shiv sainiks did to muslims in gujarat.

Really.......never knew that the Shiv Sena was in power in Gujarat.......

Since when...........

Pls do enlighten us.........

#62 zeemax: is the timing of the iranian fatwa important?

I suggest that before manto analyzes another personality, he himself should volunteer to undergo a personality test to determine his stability.

Following are Manto`s 2 ilogs on Imran Khan. One written in dead of winter in 2005, the other written in dead of summer in 2007. Please notice the GIANT u-turn in manto`s ``analysis`` of Imran...

December 1, 2005
[...But one side of Imran Khan has progressively gone fundo and no one can deny this. He does condone if not support terror against Israel and the west... his head-shaking goofy-smile as he encourages the worst form of persecution mania against the west .. all are just too much for any one person to take. What people like Imran Khan do is fuel an unrealistic anti-imperialism and a weird form Islamic populism... he denounces the western education system in Pakistan as ``ooont-e-bey-mahar``.. and speaks of the virtues of the tribal Jirga system over the British legal system in place etc etc -- promotes weird misogynist views about women ... ]

June 13, 2007
[... Imran Khan is a staunch Pakistani nationalist and a believer in Two Nation Theory (though it means something totally different than what Indians want it to mean) ... whose faith in Islam is stronger than any man I know but who does not wear that faith on his sleeve and does not resort to ``singing`` the Quran in public... Let me say this... if decency means moral uprightness of character and incorruptibility... then like Jinnah before him... Imran Khan has no peer not in just in Pakistan but in all of South Asia ]

atif #74 So - all this proves is that manto is capable of changing his mind over time as more facts become available. Thus, there is no question that Imran Khan gave a ``fitting reply`` to the outrages of May 12, and for that he deserves credit. And manto is quite right in recognizing this.

This proves manto is smart. Unlike some chowk duds I could mention whose minds are shaped by the losers that raised them and are incapable of changing their views on anything.

Re: # 72

ok i meant bjp...whichever party modi the hindu thug belongs to along with his chailas

Re: # 75

Please tell me that Hamid Masih is on ur list of DUDs otherwise i would be forced to accept the notion that u r but his alter ego

I can only see Imran Khan`s picture fit in to this poetry......

Imran Khan Zinda bad......

#74 atif ji

With all due respect, I do not agree with you on this stand against Manto.

I still remember I used to criticize Imran Khan a lot in the past, but, with time I progressively realized Imran Khan is the only leader that pakistanis can trust...Only, if they are not hijacked by other proven corrupt retard politicians.............They are so much retards that I feel shame to call them politicians....they are everything,but, politicians,..they do not know any abcs of politics, their politics start with corruption and end with corruption............

But, on the other hand , Imran Khan`s politics starts with fairness and ends with fairness......and that`s the main reason some Pakistanis call Imran Khan an immatured politician....b/c sadly in Pakistan only masters and PHD in corruption is the badge of honor and qualification to be considered a matured Politician.......

Anyone who is not corrupt according to set Pakistani standards, Pakistani population won`t accept him/her their politician.........LOL

And it is clear now, why Pakistan is down the drain and still #1 corrupt country in the world...Isn`t it sad? For an idealist fool like me, yes it is......

When any nation start taking corruption as the norm for it`s society and when corruption culture becomes the part and parcel of Pakistani culture then we can well imagine what could be the reason for Pakistan to be down the drain...............


Manto has every right to change his mind any time, when he feels like with valid reasoning and I think Manto has quite a valid reason to change his mind for Imran Khan.............

atif jii

You are nullifying the process of evolution here......we humans change our thoughs for others under the same process and that`s the vital process in the progress of human progeny..If, we stop thinking and get stuck with our same old worn out views then, we are actually opposing Iqbal`s ideology.............


Manto`s metamorphosis upon this Imran Khan`s issue is under the same evolution.......which is quite encouraging and progressive.....

It is totally contrary to MQWM Mafia`s rotten old ghetto style views where they only backup their own racial slurs and where they wish to divide and rule.....where they do not consider themselves Pakistani, they only view themselves as certain miserable group of people who have had been suffering @ the hands of all other ethnicities and now they only wish one thing and that`s revenge, their stand is to take revenge from anyone who speaks the truth and who tries to oppose their cruel agenda...............of killing innocent poor Pakistani Karachiits..........


Anyway, no matter what your own personal issues with Manto are, please, try NOT to sabotage our national interest @ the chaotic times....If, we consider ourselves patriotic Pakistanis, then we have to forget our personal grudges and we should resolve them for the one voice of democracy in Pakistan.....

All of Pakistanis should be united on this issue of establishment of democracy in Pakistan...with the help of our leader Imran Khan............

Manto first of all great write up. But allama is only relevant to anyone who can read. When more people are literate this will be a more relevant question.

#77 Forget about Hamidm - let`s talk about you.

First, you think you are a muslim, but are unable to free yourself from the casteist brahmin mindset when you refer to ``masih`` as if people are greater or lesser human beings depending on their profession.

Second, you think I equate Mullahism with Islam (under the nick Hamidm) and equate Mullahism with Jehaliyat and the opposite of Islam (under the nick Tahmed). Please enlighten me on why you think any individual would spend his time deliberately contradicting himself?

zeena #79 ``Manto has every right to change his mind any time, ``

Of course zeena dear, manto has every right to change his mind any time and as often as he wishes...and BY GOD he exercises that option with frenzied frequency. But if he is going to change his mind this often, why doesnt he just wait until he has made up his mind?

Yes, evolution of thought is important and one should adjust to changing circumstances. But consider the following example:

Imagine you go to a doctor for headache. He tells you to take Advil. You go the next day with same headache and he ``evolves`` his prescription by telling you to take an injection. By third day, he has adjusted to the fact that he was wrong the first two days and therefore ``evolves`` into suggesting that you get a head surgery done on you. Would you believe him, even if you laud his capacity to ``evolve`` and learn from his mistakes?

Manto, by his own admission, is a trained economist and a trained lawyer. He cannot be lauded for learning from his mistake after his incompetence sends a man to gallows. And he sent Imran`s reputation to gallows by when he lawyerly argued on December 1st 2005 (as quoted in #74) that Imran was a ``terrorist``, ``goofy``, and ``misogynist``...

#78 Zeena {``Imran Khan Zina bad...... ``}

Zeena,
Finally, you see the light. This is exactly what we have been saying. Any way ``Deer aayad drust aayad. `` :)

#69 by Naqshbandi on June 23, 2007 10:30am PT



`comparisons only the muslims/pakis buy` -- bollocks! if you read papers like the london guardian and the independent


HAHA...that`s all you`v got? Al-guardian...

heck...even the british government is exclusively focusing on islamofascists like your brothers when it says it`s fighting terrorism...

and when the US government made it a requirement for foreigners/aliens to register, guess which islamic country made it to the list before indonesia, the largest muslim country or India, the land with an equal number of muslims....

#82 atif ji
LOL...you gave me an example of medical decision making for Headache.......

Well, to tell you the truth, this example itself has lost it`s validity, when you are asking me, that if, my doctor changes his deccision so frequently , will I trust him so oftenly?

For your example, Yes, I will trust my doctor more when he comes up with new and more improved evidenced based medical decision for my headache work up.....

And in real world, this happens daily, always a competent doctor start treating headache with the simplest method first.........and progressively go to upper level , if, headache doesn`t improve...means ...if, next day, my headache doesn`t improve, ofcourse my doctor has every right to change his decision to an alternative method of treatment and patients appreciate doctor`s improved paln of treatment.......

Remember, if one drug doesn`t work or, if, doctor changes his plan to treat frequently , that`s more admirable , than to get stuck with the same old rotten plan with no chances of cure...meicine is a very rapidly changing field of practice.......and that`s the best example that you gave in this context.....but, dearie this example is working against your own view....

Medicine is evolutionary process and sameway, human mind is.....

If, Manto is saying something in favour of Imran Khan now and said something against him in the past, that`s not a valid reason to humiliate manto....Rather I will encourage manto to come up with new ideology more often.....

We don`t need stagnant water...we need fresh srping water..............

#85 by Zeena on June 23, 2007 6:37pm PT


always a competent doctor start treating headache with the simplest method first


retards like you need to go to a proctologist for brain surgery....

#73 by tahmed32

zeemax: is the timing of the iranian fatwa important?

My #62 was to correct your false assertion in your #59 i.e. ``It is these jahil irani mullahs, who by issuing the fatwa, gave this bore so much prominence. if they had not done so, no one would have heard of rushdie...``

In fact, it was your `jahil` students of Quaid-e-Azam Uni of Islamabad who gave rushdie so much prominence by completely gutting the US Cultural Center in Islamabad. The Iranian fatwa came later.

As a further matter of fact, the very first protests were in India.

But facts have never been your forte`. :~)

#87 zeemax: If there had been no iranian fatwa against Rushdie, he would have been just another mediocre, little known writer, competing for attention on chowk with Hamidm (and Hamidm would have beaten him flat out).

It was the iranian fatwa that made him world famous. Without the fatwa, the burning of the US Cultural Center (regardless of whether it took place before or after the fatwa) would have been seen by the world as merely another example of lawlessness in a third world country, and no one would have bothered to inquire about the pretext used this time to destroy property.

Re: # 88 Tahmed32

``...If there had been no iranian fatwa against Rushdie, he would have been just another mediocre, little known writer...``

Tahmed is a village idiot who does not know his facts. Period. Zeemax, you got Tahmed32 cornered this time. Here is a part of Rushdie`s chronology.

Rushdie won the Booker Prize in 1981 for his novel Midnight`s Children. The fatwa did not come until 1988. In case you didn`t know, the winner of the Booker Prize is generally assured of international renown and success. It is also a mark of distinction for authors to be nominated for the Booker longlist or selected for inclusion in the shortlist. In 1993, the Booker of Bookers Prize was awarded to Salman Rushdie for Midnight`s Children (the 1981 winner), as the best novel to win the award in the first 25 years of its existence.

But, in keeping with you chauvinistic, pompous, alpha male, Punjabi muslim, attitude, your observations come as no surprise.

#89 pepe le pew: the fact that i refuse to have ``discussions`` with a self-important twit like you makes me a wise man, not the village idiot. :-)

Re: # 90 Tahmed

Who cares about a discussion? More important: bare the facts for all to see. Let them decide whether you qualify as one or not!

#91 you care about the discussions. i had to tell you twice to f.o. before you stopped addressing posts to me.

Re: # 92 Tahmed

I don`t care what you think, except about exposing your pompous ignorance. You obviously knew nothing about the Booker Prize (a well read person would not made the gaffe that you did). A discussion with you will be illuminating for you, but not for me.

pew-man: new pew-off to some indian board and worry about the filth in hindu society. instead of pretending to be an american research organization commenting from mt. olympus on the ills of muslim society.

#93 a man who takes on the name of a research organization is in no position to call anyone pompous.

pew-man: enough time wasted with you. last post to you, until i decide it is time to tell you to pew-off once again.

Re: # 94 Tahmed

Repeat. I don`t care what you think, except about exposing your pompous ignorance.

``off to some indian board and worry about the filth in hindu society. instead of pretending to be an american research organization commenting from mt. olympus on the ills of muslim society.``

Most who live in non-Muslim societies are free individuals who can choose to read whatever they want, think whatever they want, write whatever they want. When you absorb the simplicity of this principle, you will quit making the assertions that earned you the `village idiot` title. You cannot dictate what I read or write, and where I do. I am free to illuminate your ignorance.

Here is another chutyatic observation from you: `off to some indian board `

Out of the millions of posts that you have written on Chowk, have you bothered even once to read the title in the titlebar: Chowk-Identities of India Pakistan? (note the order in which the countries are called out?)

Re: # 48

Your ideas are in a way incorporated in Election law presently. Nobody can stand for election unless college graduate is towards that direction as laws made by general. So atleast elected people are not dumb though people who elect them may not be bright.

#88 by tahmed32,

Agreed except for the last line.

I was just pointing to that you don`t know facts when you said the `Iranian jahil Mullahs` started it all. Actually it was the US cultural centre gutting in Islamabad which brought the matter to the attention of the Iranians and they acted officially in issuing the fatwa ... not just street protests.

tahmed32,

But tahmed, what I find amusing is that this pukeresearch is even willing to make ME an ally against you ... LoL ... Haha ....

pew-research-but-actually-pandit-hate: what part of ``worry about the filth in hindu society`` before pontificating on the ills of muslim society dont you understand?

Zeemax #99 So, what you are saying is that the sequence of events was - the destruction of the American cultural center in Islamabad, which brought rushdie to the attention of the persian mullahs, who issued the fatwa to kill him. While this is I assume the correct chronology of events, the fact remains that the reason rushdie is world famous is because of that fatwa, not because of the attack on the American cultural center (which even had forgotten about).

as for pepe le pew, he is no doubt doing scholarly research to prove that India is the land of the free and massive poverty, dalits, and burning brides, and female infanticide are only ISI propaganda. :-)

Re: # 102 Tahmed

I thought that you were done with me! And my nick still gives you hernia. Ha! Ha! Ha!
I`ll discuss matters of substance when you are able to rise above petty matters.

PewResearch {`` Tahmed, ...I`ll discuss matters of substance when you are able to rise above petty matters.``}

Pew Janab,
The senile old Chacha Paindoo will not rise above mediocrity in his lifetime, short as it is. The man chooses to pontificate on Islamic matters with the venom and passion of a newly-circumscribed Muslim Pope. Yet, when it comes to compassion for fellow Muslims, the hypocrite is about as generous as the tightest baniya - and I am not necessarily referring to his rectum either, which is about as loose as the morals of the Paki Punju inhabitants of Hira Mandi. In summary, Chacha Chaar Sau Bees is devoted to licking the unwashed TP-rubbed white bums of his gora masters in left, right, left, right, pajama dheela topi tight manner. :)

Yasser,

Iqbal was a poet. Therefore, he ought to be considered exempt from such trivial, ordinary, and practical considerations as rules of logic, making sense, being consistent, etc.

Even more, he must be considered absolutely exempt from...

...being RELEVANT!

By definition, poets are never relevant and forever are! If that sounds inconsistent...

...then you have it!

Re: # 104 Salim

Tahmed is a hypocrite and a bundle of contradictions. These characteristics overwhelm whatever positive aspects he has in his personality. His kind are very dangerous, because they have an IQ high enough to influence others, but not high enough to sift through the good and the bad. As a result, their influence tends to be generally bad. He also suffers from a superiority (`I am right`) complex. I find it useful and hopefully educational to others to puncture his bubble. Some Punjabis (and I say this in all seriousness, being one myself) are full of themselves. Fortunately, in India, we are a minority, and not taken very seriously.