Imran Khan's Politics

re Arif #348
``... too much pent up anger towards an individual that is impeding your ability to differentiate fact from fiction. I have not seen one individual on this forum defending or promoting AH, unfortunately there are many who use his personality as an excuse to condemn everything related to mohajirs. That is wrong. ``

Actaully, Arif, that would only be wrong if indeed one could imagine the MQM sans AH. I challenge anyone, mohajir stalwart or otherwise, to criticize AH in a public, even MQM, meeting. I think we both know what effect such an action would have on his/her longevity. The fact is, AH, like Yasser Arafat, has attained iconic status (And you talk about hero
worship!!!), and his actions and voice are deemed as the actions and voice of the MQM by those who run the party. As such, distinguishing AH from the MQM, or from Mohajir rights for that matter, is not only difficult but also imprudent.

To prove me wrong, you need to just come up with a workable solution of how MQM can be rid of it`s shall we say, revenue-collection, and ghoondagiri arms and/or disassociate itself from AH. Are you up to it?

To put the problem in a nutshell, yes, it`s true that no-one here has been defending or promoting AH. (And by the way, only one interactor, the resident Attraction Seeker, has condemned `everything relationg to mohajirs). It`s also true that many interactors have problems with the MQM, per se, simply because it is, far from being democratic in any enlightened sense of that word, ultimately run by the fiat of AH, against whose will not one step can be taken by the party. I cannot claim without concrete evidence that the extortion rackets (will you deny this?) and terror tactics run by the MQM are with the complete blessings, and for the benefit of, AH, but you don`t have to be a math whiz to estimate the likelihood of such being the case.

``You are not the only person to experience violence directly or indirectly, more importantly u have not experienced the state sponsored violence. Had u been through the rangers barracks back in the nineties, u wud be singing a different tune.``

Correct me if I`m wrong, Arif, but were the Rangers not called out in response to, and in an attempt to quell, the incredible violence resulting from, first, the APMSO-PSF rivalries, and later, the MQM(A) vs MQM(H) war? It`s rather disingenuous to compare state-sponsored actions which will necessary be violent when the targets are trigger-happy, knee-drilling, murderous gangsters, with the violence now perpertrated in an organized way on peaceful opposition processionists, businessmen, cell-phone owners, or shopkeepers who dare to stay open when the MQM calls a strike. I have a horror story or two from my very street in this regard.

Re: # 353

PM,

Longtime no see, hope all is well. Its always a pleasure exchanging ideas with you, thorough gentleman, objective and sincere, this is no muska, just felt I sud say it.

Will come back tomorrow. Ciao

Long Post. Many addressees.

re #333
Arif, I don`t know if I asked you this before, but, will you please explain ``same as those worshipping idiots like Imran Khan who can never achieve any political significance because they simply refuse to accept democratice principles.``

Specifically, could you please where IK has refused to accpet democratic prinicples. This is a sincere question.

P.S. Pleading with mohajir/Urdu-speaking voters to vote out their current leadership doesn`t, I think, betray any such refusal; it`s merely the exercise of one of them democratic cornerstones-- free speech (also, indirectly, of free association).

PPS. re. an earlier statement of yours, about Mushy dumping IK post elections, yes, that`s a no-brainer. However, it was well known that BEFORE the elections, when Imran was an unknown and therefore dangerous quantity, among other ``pre-election rigging`` shenanigins, Mushy tried to buy his loyalty with the offer of future PMship.

re. #335: Urstruly
I was more than intrigued to read the following:
I must remind you that Punjab is the only province that has unanimoulsy passed resolution through its assembly stressing on federal government to import stranded pakistanis; as a matter of fact the Punjabi prime minister NS is the only PM that even secured funding from Saudi Arabia to help accomodate those Pakistanis.

Sadly, Salim`s response, or non-response to the above is starting to become a pattern.

re. #337 Salim_Chauhan:
Salim, yaar, are we still in denial about what happened on May 12? Are we still going to spout inanities like ``Mohajirs tried to control nefarious elements from inciting riots in our city [on May 12] and we got the proverbial Pakis` nest all stirred up all over the north?``
This would be merely laughable, were it not for the the loss of innocent blood, some it lost, on emergency room tables, where MQM goons harassed doctors doing their jobs.

Your claims about the MQM simply trying ``to control nefarious elements from inciting riots in our city`` would also not be so pugnaious were it not for the fact that Waseem Akhtar et al. have since accepted responsibility for the barricading of roads May 11, (a move that resulted in many deaths by prevention of ambulance access to the injured); widespread reports from civilians, as well as televised evidence, of the taking up of sniper positions along overpasses early in the morning.

That you, Salim, should try to spin this as an instance of the kindly Mohajirs preventing a possible riot by the opposition parties (yeah, right, we know how many lives were lost in the CJ`s processions all over Pakistan to date!!) is, apart from being disgusting to anyone living in Karachi, also alarming in what is suggests might be turning you to such self-deceit.

Arif`s logic (or lack thereof) when it comes to the issue of the May 12 deaths is similarly disturbing. Even if we subtract the 13 claimed by the MQM as their own (Gee, that must prove they weren`t the instigators!!) you`re left with a figure, as of May 15, of 35-- not 29-- others. That Arif can claim, without an iota of evidence, that ``most of these 33 were innocent bystanders``, is again simply befuddling, if not alarming.

That MQM supporters here can deny that the party/group has more than a mere `rogue element`; or that its politics have always included fear-induction and very organised extortionism thru (mainly) bhatta collection, arm-twisting, and organized crime such as, chiefly, mobile-phone and vehicle ``snatchings`` is all more than a little disturbing for the ordinary Karachi resident like myself. (Ordinary in the sense of having no friends in high and/or low places).

Neither is it any more comforting that some of these supporters are willing to put up with the such bare-faced organized crime because the alternative is a less secular, supposedly misogynisitc system. How is secular extremism (or, more correctly, extremist secularism) any different, essentially, from the intolerant religiosity that such secualrists fear? How does a party`s mere profession to secularism enable one to condone, or overlook, its crimes of the magnitude of those mentioned above? Are these crimes, all very real, of somehow less egregiousness than misogyny, which, at the end of the day, is an attitude, (that may or may not lead to crime); not a crime per se? Is Secularism of this variety not then a New Religion, in whose name daylight robbery, and even murder, are acceptable prices to pay to stave off the prospects of misogyny??

Well, of course the MQM was a platform for the Mohajirs to address genuine grievances against the `others`, and is what gives it staying power, well beyond that utility. But anyone seeking legitamacy, or trying to sell acceptability, of the party on these grounds alone would to well to remember the origins of the Nazi Party circa 1930s-- or indeed of any popular uprising led by a Great Leaders-- be it from Cuba, Zimbabwe, or Uganda. Admittedly, and thankfully, the power of the MQM/Altaf hasn`t quite reached such proportions, but it might just be a matter of time, at least within the ambit of Karachi, if otherwise sane folks continue defending its actions and politics, spinning certain events, and ignoring certain inherent relationships, as exhibited here.

No Bubba works 4 Arkansas Guzette..i thought it was pretty obvious

Re: # 349

Bubba Jee

Do u work for Fox TV cause the way u distort messages it sure does look like that.

#349 Bubba {``Killings of innocent civilians are what this British citizen has done in Karachi.``}

Bubba,
How about all the killing of innocent British civilians carried out by Brit Pakis - mostly hailing from upcountry? Can you blame MQM and Pir sahib for their actions. Some are probably even Punjus.

Actually, except for hate MQM has no politics. And that has been their politics since the beginning. By reading any established newspaper of Pakistan, one can get a sense of MQM and their politics. They have nothing to offer for a better society. By visiting their website one gets their political and intellectual level.

The issue before everyone is to come out and strongly condemn the killings of May 12, and continue expressing their outrage. No more spin is necessary. No more short memory is required. All those responsible for such atrocity must be held accountable and brought to justice.

Killings of innocent civilians are what this British citizen has done in Karachi. His continuous diatribe and vitriol against every other ethnic group in Pakistan must be stopped only through civilian outrage. Hopefully, the goons of these mad people will finally understand what sort of political behavior is acceptable in Pakistan.

Comparing the politics of this group of hate mongers with those of Nelson Mandela is demeaning to the politics of Mr. Mandela, who stayed in his country’s prison for over 27 years, and who never left his homeland. Unlike Nelson Mandela, Alt-F accepted the citizenship of another country and continues to direct violence.

These people have no shame, but mohajirs of Karachi that I know of do.

Re: # 346

Jinaab Mirza Sahib,

You said:{Pak Army has been conducting military operations in Waziristan, killing civilians for the past few years, without much protest from any segment of the society. Or worse, capturing innocent civilians and sending them off to Gitmo to be tortured by americans. }

Opposition to the Pak operations in Wazirastan and other regions has come from many quarters including the political parties of JI, JUI-S, JUI-F, PTI and PML-NS. In any case, this was more of an analogy and in no way justifies these actions.

And allow me to say, enough of this apologetic behavior (AB), we sud stand for what is right and oppose what we think is wrong

{Pak army rolled tanks over Sindhi villages during MRD in the early 80s, and has been killing balochis since the 70s. Imagine if Pir Sahib, the illegitimate child of Zia & ISI, had been killed by army like they killed Bughti? But the amry wouldn`t kill the fugly Pir, would it? Pir Sahib is a far more valuable stooge for ISI.}

Mirza, you have too much pent up anger towards an individual that is impeding your ability to differentiate fact from fiction. I have not seen one individual on this forum defending or promoting AH, unfortunately there are many who use his personality as an excuse to condemn everything related to mohajirs. That is wrong.

As for the illegimate child rhetoric, mirza kon hai aisa jo izzat sey chaltha hai? Yahan pey sub he ke kuch na kuch laga nazar aiga. Let it be yaar, the only guy hanged was ZA Bhutto and that too because of that a$$hole Zia lul phuck.

{MQM politics is violence. Quite a few of the kids I grew up with ended up in the local unit as teenagers. Not a single one of them has made anything of his life. And one close friend even died fighting in the MQM civil war. Whenever I`m in Karachi, I make a point of visiting his mom. She still grieves the same way as she did when her innocent son took a bullet for facist Pir. It boils my blood to see his dumb sycophants still supporting the facist and racist politics of MQM.}

You are not the only person to experience violence directly or indirectly, more importantly u have not experienced the state sponsored violence. Had u been through the rangers barracks back in the nineties, u wud be singing a different tune. Iam sorry to say but u r basically using your poor departed friend as an excuse to vent your frustrations and are presenting only one side of the picture.

Making judgements about guys not achieving anything in life, well not everyone was fortunate to leave that godforsaken place and even those who left how well all of them did is a relative term, so please excuse me when I say spare us with this mumbo jumbo BS. And, being part of Mqm in Karachi over the last five years has worked wonders for many individuals professionally, politically and social standing.

{But those of us who stayed away from MQM, have done well. We stayed in schools, worked hard went to colleges, and now have successful careers, regardless of how much the muhajir `ideologues` claim discrimination}

Good for you, no one will argue with that point, but does that imply all Palestinians who have been living lives as refugees since birth but still have achieved material success should simply sit back and allow the Israelis to continue with their atrocities? Being professionally successful in life is a material aspect of life, ask Nelson Mandela and the South Afrikaners how they achieved their freedom. It was not handed to them on a golden platter, nor was it achieved thru continued violence. Political activists are a different breed not everyone can offer the same sacrifices, majority is drawn to material successes and are willing to ignore injustices for a better standard of living. Myself included.

Zeemax you closet karachiite - once again its 70% of national revenue not provinical revenue. You should have used the other word (GDP). Either way you have a point re.Punjab/Sind/Singapore except for many people ethnicity is not in itself an issue. The issue is an angry and alienated urban middle class (which doesnt exist in these huge numbers outside of karachi).
If the surrounding areas of karachi were not so heavily feudal (enemy to the socialist and feminist) and if they were economically similar then i can bet my life this wouldnt be an issue. In the long run as literacy and economics improve as the middle class crops up in other areas the feudal system will die a slow death and the country will homogenise.
Till then politics in pakistan will be unduly influenced by ``ethnicity`` in karachi and in every other place.

Re: # 342
rf786, you write:
``The entire middle/lower class of Pakistan is a victim, correct statement, but incomplete. Middle/lower class citizens of Wazirastan have more rights than those of Karachi, state can kill thousands of mohajirs under the guise of state security...``

Unfortunately your statement is not true. Pak Army has been conducting military operations in Waziristan, killing civilians for the past few years, without much protest from any segment of the society. Or worse, capturing innocent civilians and sending them off to Gitmo to be tortured by americans.
Again, enough of this ``we are the biggest victim BS``.

Pak army rolled tanks over Sindhi villages during MRD in the early 80s, and has been killing balochis since the 70s. Imagine if Pir Sahib, the illegitimate child of Zia & ISI, had been killed by army like they killed Bughti? But the amry wouldn`t kill the fugly Pir, would it? Pir Sahib is a far more valuable stooge for ISI.

MQM politics is violence. Quite a few of the kids I grew up with ended up in the local unit as teenagers. Not a single one of them has made anything of his life. And one close friend even died fighting in the MQM civil war. Whenever I`m in Karachi, I make a point of visiting his mom. She still grieves the same way as she did when her innocent son took a bullet for facist Pir. It boils my blood to see his dumb sycophants still supporting the facist and racist politics of MQM.

But those of us who stayed away from MQM, have done well. We stayed in schools, worked hard went to colleges, and now have successful careers, regardless of how much the muhajir `ideologues` claim discrimination.

It appears to me that the mohajir gripe is not in fact with Punjab, because Punjab gives a bit out of its own share to all small provinces rather than take anything from them. Their real gripe is with Rural Sindh because Karachi produces the lions share of Sindh`s revenue (and not of entire country:Take note cliftonbridge) but has to share it with Rural Sindh. They don`t want to do that because they do not and have never considered themselves part of Sindh.

It seems their rantings against Punjab are just a subterfuge to somehow turn Karachi into a Singapore (jinnahpur) so they can spend all their revenue on themselves, without directly invoking Sindhi ire at this stage, and then ... Mojaan hi Mojaan (or mojo hi mojo).

Yaar Sanatani aseen tey nahi kadna chandhey par ey aap hi tuhadey naal ralna chaondhe ney. Eh bhartian noon kehndedy ney pakistan bana key bari gultee ho gaye tey sanoo muaaf kar deyo tey wapas ley lawo. Tey saano eh kehndey ney key bharti sadey naal ral key jinnahpur banawan gey phair mojaan hi mojaan ... !!!

Hun tusi dasso ki kariey ... tussi hi wapas ley lawo tuhadi bari mehrbani .. :)

Re: # 212

Zee Kuttya, Kanjara,

Tusi sanu Zameena te vede to kadiye asi kuch nahinkya (bas thore jay muhajir kanjaran de prahvha nu katya).

Hun tuse en pen de yara nu ethe pejhoge te main lahore aake tenu chittar maranga. Teh eh bhi sun le pura muhalla kathha ho ke tallian bajauge te tenu gallan kadenga.

Eh bhi ho skda hai ke oh log menu hi kuttan te ken muhajra nu kadna umra karan de barabar hai.

Manhu lagda hai tusi muhajiran kolo dar gaye ho es vaste tusi apne gandgi sade utte sutna chande ho.

Agar sheran da jigar hai te unhan no unhan de ghar ach ghus ke kutto.

No Regards
Sanatani

Re: # 339 & 341

Mirza,

{Could somebody help his muhajir bhai here? }

Jalgia, burnol lagaye, kutgia burnol lagaye. Or, Zeedol, gunj pey layee baal. What kind of help do u require?

Jokes apart, Iam totally in agreement with u on this subject, why has Mqm not done anything to repatriate the stranded Pakistanis from Bangladesh.

Then again, what has MMA done in NWFP? Have they implemented Islami Sharia as promised? These are political questions with deeper ramifications. Mqm is part of the Sindh Govt where many Sindhi nationalists and their allies oppose any influx of refugees. This is not an excuse but a simple rationale explanation that may help a mohajir bhai.

Pir sahib does suffer from meglomania, then again who in Pakistan does not, so why single out Pir sahib.

{In Karachi, by virtue of having a dominant majority muhajirs unfortunately never assimilated}

unfortunately? being apologetic does not explain or solve any issues. Your apology betrays lack of historical and national context, this country was made for Muslims of the Sub-continent for all of its citizens to enjoy equal status. Read Jinnah`s last speech to the constituent assembly of Pakistan.

Has the pathan ever apologized for retaining their cultural identity even though migrated to karachi? They still maintain their pathan identity, and the state is supposed to protect their right to maintain their identity. So why discriminate mohajirs dear mirza? Same can be applied to the Punjabi immigrants to Karachi, to be fair there is not much of a difference between mohajir and Punjabi urbanized cultural values, thus the quick assimilation of migrating mohajirs into Lahore and other major cities of Punjab.

{So please, enough of this `muhajirs are the victims`. The entire middle/lower class Pakistan is a victim.}

The entire middle/lower class of Pakistan is a victim, correct statement, but incomplete. Middle/lower class citizens of Wazirastan have more rights than those of Karachi, state can kill thousands of mohajirs under the guise of state security and be supported by morons like Imran Khan who fiercely defend the right of the waziris to defend their life and honor by kiling 700 Pak soldiers. Here lies the duplicity and that is the problem, state/govts do make mistakes but it is the role of civil society, intelligensia to support the victims and condemn state atrocities. That is all we ask for dear mirza, a sense of equality, justice, tolerance and sharing.

Re: # 340
Sahib Kiyaa aapnay Ghalib yaad kara diyaa:
chtt-tii nahii hayy moonh koo yeah kafir lagii hoii.


Agree with you on all points. Yes, MQM is unfortunatey a real force. My grandfather scolded his nephews who were getting swept up in the MQM phenom in the 80s, of how Sindhis came and helped them out when the first migrated to Pak. Part of my family settled in Lahore, and they are assimilated into the local culture while retaining their cultural heritage.

In Karachi, by virtue of having a dominant majority muhajirs unfortunately never assimilated.

There is also a darker side of `educated` elite muhajirs (not the majority that settled in Lines Area and other middle/lower class areas) colluding with the Ayub dictatorship in marginalizing Bengalis. The entire One-Unit system helped two ethnic groups: Educated Muhajirs who were major part of the civilian bureaucracy and Punajbi military elites.

So please, enough of this `muhajirs are the victims`. The entire middle/lower class Pakistan is a victim.

Re: # 339

Hazrat Sharminda kiyayy dayy rahayy hein aapp. Lilahh reham kijyayy.

You are dead on about MQM`s hypocricy on the Stranded Pakistanis Issue, in fcat the only individual who sincerely tried to bring those poor soles back to pakistan was a punjabi gulam hayder wayeen the C.M of punjab, but then again hatred has a bigger constituency than fear of Allah in our country. It was part of MQM`s original manifesto, in fact almost everything that was on their manifesto is defunct now for all intent and purpose but here is the caveat, MQM is a political force on ground in KHI, they have a real constituency and the only manner in which they can be marginalized is thru reason and compassion and fairness to the city itself. Let me disappoint the haters of MQM by saying that in the next elections, MQM will win again from karachi and they CAN win fair and square (thanks to one man and its not Altaf Hussein its actually Mustafa Kamal) but they`ll insist on cheating cause as ghalib said...chtt-tii nahii hayy moonh koo yeah kafir lagii hoii.

My point is that if and when our supposed REAL leaders (see mian and bibi) return and my hope is to see a pakistan where there is true democracy, if as a result of true democracy one of these chracters come in power -and they should if they have the manadate of the people- and if they try to crush MQM by force like they have tried in the past, than that works quite well for altaf hussein for it rejuvinates a dying phenomenon all the while peer jii is sitting pretty in london. Its the same parallel that makes Osama more popular when bushy insists on sprinkling the democracy magic dust on us by showering us with daisy cutters, which i know is for our own good, we just dont know it yet.