Rest in Peace Pakistan (1947-1974)

Re: # 1141

One could say Dr. Ambedkar best represented this ideal ... but these people will never get the simple fact that Dr. Ambedkar was a finer human being than any of the Hindu ``Liberals``... and it is precisely because of Dr. Ambedkar that India has a truly secular constitution which champions individual freedom - including the right to profess an identity separate from others- above all else.

Manto, only a blind man would see the same genes in all Muslims. It`s the question of a perception of a separate self. Nation, race, ethnicity, xyz....that`s just labels.

Re: # 1140

Some of these people are champions of misinterpretation.

Yes, I do believe that fully, Muhiyal. If you prefer ethnicity, you can use that instead.

Why do you find it odd?

Kaalchakra, do you really believe (#19) that Muslims from across various regions of South Asia constitute a separate race together?

That sounds so like the 60s in Pakistan, when most of the negative stereotyping of Hindus used to be powered by a delusion that Muslims are a universally taller and fairer race than them.. in spite of all the dissenting evidence from the appearance of Punjabi Hindus or Bengali Muslims.

Even when East Pakistan was around with its millions of generally shorter and darker Muslims, the fact that the race varies by region not by religion was lost on so many Pakistanis especially in armywallah circles. I concede this gora fixation plagues us Punjabis on our side of the border too, the only difference being that it does not power as much racist hatred at least across religions.

In any case, I can understand the reasons that some needed to peddle this theory, but your own subscribing to a view like that is odd.

Re: # 1135

I think kaal used the term race by mistake.

The issue was always of imagined identity ... never ``Race``. I`ve known Kaal long enough not to suspect some reverse logic to abuse Pakistanis.

ylh

I understand it very well and I am very clear about where we are and where we want to go... unlike you pakis who are groping in dark and not sure who you are, where is the future... which is why pakiland is so f***ed up... killing and brutalizing each other... spreading terrorrism and what not...

Re: # 1134

Yes... Ahmedabad Gujurat ... the likes of which Pakistan has never seen ... was secretly made part of Pakistan through a negotiated treaty right?

Re: # 1137

Gujrat: 2000 muslims died... bangladesh: 1 million muslims died, killed by muslims themselves, people of the ``same race``... All in all - number of muslim killed in all communal riots put together - I will take a guess - 5000, may be 10000 tops. But how many paki muslims have been killed, by pakis themselves, since 1947... bengalis, balochis, shias, muhajirs... the number doesn`t even compare... even if you include the collateral damage of kashmir jihad...

Anycase - my point was that - we hindus have already figured it out... we as a ``race``, do not kill each other with abandon... we do not fight internecine religious or ideological bloodbaths... we sure have caste differences, political/cultural differences, but we are unanimous in our purpose, our destiny, our future...

We know who we are and where we stand.... we are the majority and we will make this nation a success for all - hindus, muslims, whoever... sure, we have fallen flat in our face a few times - babri, godhra, gujrat, bombay... but we will learn our lessons and move on - nothing will to stop us from the destiny, inshallah - a nation free and prosperous...

Princes did have different position, Muslim seats were entirely out of the picture.. after CMP. so that they can`t join with Muslims and make the process a nightmare for the Congress..

It is the old trick from `Arthasashtra`` (I think), divide the enemies. Congress effectively divided the enemies, Muslims (under Jinnah) and the Princes and tackled both efficiently. I`m thankful to Nehru/Patel/Gandhi and Congress for that.

Now, why don`t you go back to the crux of this article which is how Ahmadiyas are treated in the ``land of the pure`` Muslims?. :-)

Dude,

I always claimed that Congress rejected the CMP because it is bad for the non-Muslims and
good for only Muslims and the Princes. and I have said it worked out well for me and to a lot of other Indians.. Again you can think whatever you want to like `I made a fool of myself`` and feel happy. :-)

This piece that you wrote is about your dad`s current position BTW. I see that you have written an obituary piece for Pakistan here, because of the treatment that ``Ahmadis`` got. So do you think in the immediate future your dad can wish others in a ``islamic way`` and not fear getting jailed. Any guess on the number of years before Ahmadi can become a ``Muslim`` in pakistan.. 5 / 10 / 20 ?? :-)

Re: # 1132

I am afraid that logic about princes doesn`t work given the arguments that you are evading on the other board and given that most of princes voted on Congress` side. But that is not the argument here.

As for my father... Muslim or not... he is a happy and a content man... let him be. He doesn`t need state`s endorsement of his religious beliefs... but the state has provided him enough of a playing field to do well as a businessman... and thats enough for him.

PS:

Just so that we are clear you left my earlier board because your lie (about princes having a different position under the GOIA 1935 from CMP) was exposed and you didn`t have any answers to direct questions except for harping on the same line that was no longer valid.

Dude,

It`s for others to decide, who made a fool of themselves. You can think of me as whatever you wish to think. I stop indulging in cyclical debates and that`s the reason why I left your earlier board.. It is the truth that under CMP, the princes and the Muslims would have played havoc with the constitution because of their combined weightage and congress rightly rejected that..

First, do something in your country so that your dad doesn`t get jailed because he greets others in a ``proper Muslim way``.. :-)

i`m happy with what we got in India and actually thank Jinnah for that and If you remember have been arguing that Jinnah should be given the highest award ``Bharat ratna`` from the Indian government for the service he did to India. And no Indian as convinced me otherwise.. :-)

Re: # 1129

Dear Masanamuthu,

You can go on saying what you want but you made a fool out of yourself when you claimed that CMP had a different numeric position for the princes than the interim government that Congress got instead. You may respond to my comments there... or here.. whichever pleases you more.

Like I pointed out then... Pakistan didn`t even pander to the princes like you did... no purses were given to them... one morning Nawab of Bahawalpur woke up and the newly declared Republic had taken over in the name of Pakistan.

However why don`t we revisit the discussion on the other board?

Masanamuthu,

Please note that the last time you tried to argue about CMP you made a right royal fool out of yourself.

We still await your rejoinder here: http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00007927&channel=civic%20center&start=0&end=9&chapter=1&page=1