Preventing More Lal Masjids

re. philosopher #887

"Patrick ji...you have just rephrased your questions in this post. Do you want me to rephrase my answers now?"

Philo, the first time 'round my question was asked in the abstract, and your answer was answered likewise. However, abstractions have the danger of taking on a psuedo-life of their own, espeically in cyberspace. That's why I asked the question more pointedly the second time 'round. I'm forcing you to be honest and imagine yourself in a certain situation, making it as real as your mind possibly can. Otherwise this is all so much of intellecto-emotional masturbation.

So, once again: Would you pull the trigger on my apostate friends if I pointed them out to you? Talk is cheap.

re. philosopher #887

"Islam is a very flexible system however this flexibility is always exploited by the ''oons''. In this scenario when criticising Islam is fashions in the world, a lot of ‘‘pseudo Muslim’’ are exploiting it to pursue their own vested interests. Aryan hirsi, wafa sultan, Rushdie only to name a few are worst example of this ''oon' trend. Letting these people get away with this BS is sheer stupidity."

Agreed. But what would be a greater stupidity, in a world that is a marketplace of ideas, is trying to silence them with death. While that may fill your need for revenge, or even imbue you with a nice sense of power, rest assured, you will have ultimately done the Cause more harm than good. Masadi already put it eloquently much earlier.

#879 Posted by Urstruly

"WHERE THE HELL ARE WETERN HUMAN RIGHTS ORGS NOW"

Urstruly sahib,

They are in Kashmir reporting on the abuses of the Indian state.

dang! Double negatives!!

correction: "...and also believe in the import of an Islamic social system, but just don't think that bringing about such a system necessitates killing dissenters."

re 886 philosopher:
"I am not in a position to deal with it exhusatively. My stance on apostasy is mailny of pragmatic nature which i have explained in my posts."

That's quite clear, actually. In fact, it's the 'pragmatism' that I see as the problem (even from a, well, pragmatic standpoint. My next comment will explain why)

You write: "I don't think islamic civilization can survive against this powerful westren new_colonialism if it let apostates and dissenters go that easily."

You have to wonder what type of an ideological society will be built upon fear. Here's a hint: Repressive, dull an ultimately stagnant. Do you really think that a civilization can, in this day and age, or any henceforth, survive on fear? The Soviets tried it, and see how they ended up. (Which is not to take away from the tremendous material progress effected by the Commies through the 50s.)

In any event, not all apostates are Western bootlickers, and many liberoons are in fact devout Muslims (to their own minds, if not to yours.) I'm not sure how killing my apostate friends will in any way lessen the threat posed by the rampant Western oppressive machinery. Methinks you need to clarify who your enemies are, and stop getting high on all this gore-fest, which I know can be very appealing to one who spends too much time with head buried in books. Get out a little, will ya! :)

"The liberaloon muslim are absolutely clueless of the nature of islamic religio-spirtual philosophy and think that it can survive without the feedback of islamic social system (they are living in fools' paradise)."

Or maybe many of them (who you choose to label conveniently) are quite aware of the philosophy at some level (even without having spend years poring through Derrida, Neruda and Iqbal) and also believe in the import of an Islamic social system, but just don't think that bringing about such a system doesn't necessitate killing dissenters. Many of them work quietly bringing about changes in banking and investment, for instance, to bring it more in lines with Islamic teachings and spirit.

Don't be such an arrogant ass, Philo. Take the trouble to look beyond the widest of generalizations, tough as it might be; and fun as Cowboys and Injuns can be!

Re:#866 Posted by Humsab


((((Is the world exactly the same as it was in 7th century? When everything has changed then why not change the interpretation of religious instructions if not instructions?))))

Pidare sahib...I agree with you that the world is not the same as it was back in 7th century...but pidare ji....is Muslim world going through the same phase as it was in 800 years ago when it was ruling over the most part of the world????

Now when it is desperately trying to resist the most powerful civilization human history has ever witnessed, how can you expect it to be lenient on these crucial issues?

Pidare sahib....I agree with you that change is necessary but you cannot change the core principles. The form/content of those principles is determined by the social condition+ the phase that ideology is going through.

Islam is a very flexible system however this flexibility is always exploited by the ''oons''. In this scenario when criticising Islam is fashions in the world, a lot of ‘‘pseudo Muslim’’ are exploiting it to pursue their own vested interests. Aryan hirsi, wafa sultan, Rushdie only to name a few are worst example of this ''oon' trend. Letting these people get away with this BS is sheer stupidity.

Re:#867 Posted by PM

Patrick ji...you have just rephrased your questions in this post. Do you want me to rephrase my answers now? The quotation that you have taken from my posts explain my position on this issue. As for as the complementary relation of totalitarianism is concrened, i don't agree with your opinion.

You have asked me to define ''apostasy' well...you know that my stance on death penality of apostate is only couple of weeks old.....so it's still a new born baby(a cruel one though..)

I am not in a position to deal with it exhusatively. My stance on apostasy is mailny of pragmatic nature which i have explained in my posts.

I don't think islamic civilization can survive against this powerful westren new_colonialism if it let apostates and dissenters go that easily.

The liberaloon muslim are absolutly clueless of the nature of islamic religio-spirtual philosophy and think that it can survive without the feedback of islamic social system(they are living in fools' paradise).

Only a couple weeks ago i was against the death penality of apostate but i don't see any practical utility of that''oon'' theory.

More later.

(this new format is just pissing me of)

Zeemax:

I guess I was working on incomplete information, or even disinformation, gleaned from television and newspaper reports. My "understanding", most likely mistaken in the light of what you point out, was that the the parents were being being called in to increase the number of 'hostages'. But the version of the story you present does make more sense and sound more plausible, I will admit.

Thanks for your patience in explaining.

Re:#879 Posted by Urstruly




Jean-Paul Sartre 1961

Preface to Frantz Fanon’s “Wretched of the Earth''

(There is an excerpt from that preface)



They would do well to read Fanon; for he shows clearly that this irrepressible violence is neither sound and fury, nor the resurrection of savage instincts, nor even the effect of resentment: it is man re-creating himself. I think we understood this truth at one time, but we have forgotten it — that no gentleness can efface the marks of violence; only violence itself can destroy them. The native cures himself of colonial neurosis by thrusting out the settler through force of arms.

When his rage boils over, he rediscovers his lost innocence and he comes to know himself in that he himself creates his self. Far removed from his war, we consider it as a triumph of barbarism; but of its own volition it achieves, slowly but surely, the emancipation of the rebel, for bit by bit it destroys in him and around him the colonial gloom. Once begun, it is a war that gives no quarter. You may fear or be feared; that is to say, abandon yourself to the disassociations of a sham existence or conquer your birthright of unity.

(but i simply love this paragraph)

When the peasant takes a gun in his hands, the old myths grow dim and the prohibitions are one by one forgotten. The rebel’s weapon is the proof of his humanity. For in the first days of the revolt you must kill: to shoot down a European is to kill two birds with one stone, to destroy an oppressor and the man he oppresses at the same time: there remain a dead man, and a free man; the survivor, for the first time, feels a national soil under his foot. At this moment the Nation does not shrink from him; wherever he goes, wherever he may be, she is; she follows, and is never lost to view, for she is one with his liberty.


This excerpt represents most of my thoughts and feelings.

Re: # 881

There were two schools in Lal Masjid Complex; Jamiah Faridiah for boys and Jamiah Hafsa for girls. The total strength of both schools together was 7000+. If we tally the number of students who left the school between the start of seige and final masacre, the number is hardly 1500-2000. Lets assume for arguments sake that half of 7000 got out, this leaves us about 3000 who are unaccounted for- meaning, masacred

876:Zeemax
#873 Posted by PM,

Yaar PM, I'm seriously having doubts about your powers of comprehension after your last few posts.

Zee:
PM is the only guy on CHOWK who I would never accuse of that.

He is thoroughly sincere in his agenda. He is a fundamentalist extremist orthodox rationalist...and he does smoulder in the fire which is the price one pays for the Faustian bargain...

But if I was a Khalifa in an Islamic State, I would make him my closest confidante & advisor...Just as Barmaka family, who were brahmins/barmakaas who were the prime ministers during Abbasi caliphate..If they had names like Jaffar, that should not fool anyone.

My only beef with Masadi is that while I talk about ground-realities ( technology) he talks about the esoterics (Theoritical physics)...otherwise on a pure intellectual level he is 100% right.

#879 Posted by Urstruly on July 18, 2007 7:40:46 am


Why are they so quiet about Islamabad School Masacre of close to 3000 students.?


I'd like that number to get accepted as the casualty count as much as any other jihadi-hating person but COME ON!!...3000? you're fucking kidding yourself...

I think 1000 is more accurate...

PM:#847
I have at least two friends who were born into conservative Muslim families. One is a haafiz, in fact. Both of them, by the age of 18, decided that Islam didn't fit their itellectual or spiritual needs. One is an atheist, the other agnostic. Neither goes to masjid because they do agree that hypocrisy is just wrong. It is only for fear of death that they will sometimes go as Muslims. (Can you blame them?)

Neither of the two engages in denigration of Islam-- to them its as good or bad as most religions; though I have no doubt that, owing to their very generous, caring personalities, they do influence others even in their (non)religiousness. (That's an easy thing to do in over-religionized Pakistan, actually).
____________________________________________________________

No No No! People like these, in fact very well known & highly valued people have voiced their opinions in open fora & nothing ever happened to them...in fact on STATE TV in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan.

Now that was before US was a "friend"...but the media was controlled by commie intellectuals.

Today's Pakistan & Muslims is reactionary because of the US & the western world has not helped in getting themselves viewed as Satans.

PM: this is NOT an Islamic or Christian issue.

It is a shame that day in and day out Islam & Muslims are in the dock here on CHOWK...especially by those who do not even subscribe to the bedrock..i.e God, prophets, & the books.

Please , for a change, discuss greatness of Hitler, rue over allies win overGermany, wish for more Holocausts for jews, evils of democracy and other assorted subjects which have the potential to test your free will in the Land of bilk-&-money.

It is pretty safe to kick those might pose a threat to your way of life...please go after those today who already are THE BIGGEST threat to humanity: The Satanic ideology of the Ooon Oonns.

Return to this "fruitful" discussion once you have paid your dues there ( this is for all the Ooons Ooons who have an itch to follow the grand western progress to ditch theire own parents, religion, children, neighbors in order to travel farther & farther to do their do-gooding & saving & harvesting of souls)

WHERE THE HELL ARE WETERN HUMAN RIGHTS ORGS NOW

Is the only purpose of these hypocrite vultures (HR Orgs) is to promote the interests of Western colonial interests only? Why are they so quiet about Islamabad School Masacre of close to 3000 students.?

#877 Posted by PM,

Ponder over the following. Perhaps you get it this time around:

1) The only 'children' with anywhere to go were the day-scholars who left when the trouble began at noon on 3rd July.

2) The 'live-in' children were either all orphans, or those who had been deposited there by parents who were too poor to afford them. Example of these were the two sisters aged 8-10 who have been taken into care by Ch. Shujaat (as per Ghazi's explicit wishes)who had been left there by their destitute mother who appeared on TV with them a few days ago.

3) Both Ghazi as well as Umme-Hassaan had said many times during the siege that the parents should be allowed in, to whom they could hand over their children after verifying their claims so that they don't fall into wrong hands. The parents whom you mention have all confirmed this fact, many of whom had personally spoken to Umme-Hassaan by cellphone. However, the troops refused to let any parent in.

So what 'consentability' shentability are you talking about?

Zeemax, don't be so dim. Focus on the word "CHILDREN". Many of the parents had children in their teens and even pre-teens. Even assuming those children were filled with the jazba of the oldre ones who wanted to stay on, wouldn't it have been the right thing to force them to leave, given that, unarmed, they'd be in tremendous danger in the event of a storming of the place?

In any case, my original point had to do with the question of consent and consentability of children to lay down their lives for the Ghazi.