Preventing More Lal Masjids

Zeemax writes "What I HAVE Said and say again is that PROSELYTIZING apostates such as Hamidm2 should be killed."

Please show me where it says in the Quran that Proselytizing apostates (as opposed to just apostates) have a different punishment in the hereafter or this world. I wont ask you to show me where Allah asks you to kill them, because you can never find such a verse. Abu Bakr was no "Furqaan" regarding Islam (the Furqaan, criterion as all knowledable Muslims know is the Quran, and pray tell me how can it ever be the Furqaan when all extra Quranic things can be sanitized by hadith and enter into the fold of Islam?), when you say Islam= Allah + Muhammad + Sahaba, this is your holy trinity and you are as a result of which an idolator and a proselytizing idolator/apostate but there is no sanction for you to be killed. When the Quran says, "Obey Allah and Obey the messenger(rasool)", that word "rasool" means something. And when you read the verse "maa aler rasoole illa balagh", it is not for the messenger except to convey, then you would realize that Obeying Allah comes through obeying the conveyor of his message and refers only to the Quran, not your Holy trinity where the prophet speaks of his own desire about things that are extra-Quranic.

Zeemax writes "He completely rejects Muslim history, including Sunnah, and tries to read everything in the 'book' itself "

More nonsense, I do not "reject" Muslim history, I merely do not accept it as criteria for what Islam is. I am skeptical about it as truth as well (which is a seperate issue) due to the history of manipulation regarding hadith, even the claims of the collectors who threw out the very vast majority of them as fabrications and the rest they accepted based on subjective not scientific criteria which have major flaws, even though these Jihadists talk about the "science of hadith collection", there is no such thing

Further I do not try to "read everything" in the book, when the book itself points us outside to nature for proof. When nonsense tales are used to fill in details historical or otherwise in the Quran and they have no semblance or relation with the book but are legitimized by being given the holy title of "hadith", that is what I do not accept.

By the way traditional Islam of the Jihadist variety, aka the Crusader Version of Islam makes no difference between apostates and proselytizing apostates, the punishment for them according to the Jihadist sharia is the same, i.e. killing. That Zeemax is not trying to qualify it by making it a bit milder (though still barbaric) is a step in the right direction.

Echo mian don't get stuck over the word "mullah", I was using it in the common use that is prevalent today, those that make a living off of Islam and claim to be its guardians and teachers, the clergy that Islam does not sanction, those that sell the words of Allah for a miserable price and are thus involved in a haraam profession. Those are the mullahs of today, I don't give a rat's nut about what the etiology of the word is.

Killing those that are trying to convert you is an outrage against Islam, reflects badly on it and shows it to be unable to defend itself on the power of reason and intellect. It actually weakens and harms Islam and Muslims moreso than any proselytization can ever achieve. What does Allah say: " Invite to the way of Allah with wisdom and beautiful (good, kind) speech...and argue with them in ways that are good.." When he does not even allow you to use harsh speech, how can he sanction killing of those that argue with you? You all have no feet to stand upon, you are inventing lies against Allah, which by itself puts you outside the pale of Islam...By the way philosopher, you use the words "socio-political system" and I can guarantee you all here he does not understand what that means, he has no clue about a social system and that all social systems do not need to be bureaucratically circumscribed and can never be unchanging and static- that what the mullah aims at but never ever achieves or can achieve..

#857 Posted by echoboom,

Thank you for posting this column. This 'moderatoon'- Ishtiaq Baig - the billionaire Denim king of Pakistan and husband of (late) Nazia Hassan), has now seen the light of day.

Grease up....bend over...

July 18, 2007
Bush Aides See Failure in Fight With Al Qaeda in Pakistan
By MARK MAZZETTI and DAVID E. SANGER

WASHINGTON, July 17 — President Bush’s top counterterrorism advisers acknowledged Tuesday that the strategy for fighting Osama bin Laden’s leadership of Al Qaeda in Pakistan had failed, as the White House released a grim new intelligence assessment that has forced the administration to consider more aggressive measures inside Pakistan.

The intelligence report, the most formal assessment since the Sept. 11 attacks about the terrorist threat facing the United States, concludes that the United States is losing ground on a number of fronts in the fight against Al Qaeda, and describes the terrorist organization as having significantly strengthened over the past two years.

In identifying the main reasons for Al Qaeda’s resurgence, intelligence officials and White House aides pointed the finger squarely at a hands-off approach toward the tribal areas by Pakistan’s president, Gen. Pervez Musharraf, who last year brokered a cease-fire with tribal leaders in an attempt to drain support for Islamic extremism in the region.

“It hasn’t worked for Pakistan,� said Frances Fragos Townsend, who heads the Homeland Security Council at the White House. “It hasn’t worked for the United States.�

While Bush administration officials had reluctantly endorsed the cease-fire as part of their effort to prop up the Pakistani leader, they expressed relief on Tuesday that General Musharraf may have to abandon that approach, because the accord seems to have unraveled.

But American officials make little secret of their skepticism that General Musharraf has the capability to be effective in the mountainous territory along the Afghan border, where his troops have been bloodied before by a mix of Qaeda leaders and tribes that view the territory as their own, not part of Pakistan.

“We’ve seen in the past that he’s sent people in and they get wiped out,� said one senior official involved in the internal debate. “You can tell from the language today that we take the threat from the tribal areas incredibly seriously. It has to be dealt with. If he can deal with it, amen. But if he can’t, he’s got to build and borrow the capability.�

In weighing how to deal with the Qaeda threat in Pakistan, American officials have been meeting in recent weeks to discuss what some said was emerging as an aggressive new strategy, one that would include both public and covert elements. They said there was growing concern that pinprick attacks on Qaeda targets were not enough, but also said some new American measures might have to remain secret to avoid embarrassing General Musharraf.


The growing Qaeda threat in Pakistan has prompted repeated trips to Islamabad by senior administration officials to lean on officials there and calls by lawmakers to make American aid to Pakistan contingent on a sustained counterterrorism effort by General Musharraf’s government.

Dost Mittar: Fair enough, and glad to have your vote on "my" interpretation of Islam rather than Hamidm's. Actually, Hamidm has said he would be all for "my" interpretation except he choses to consider it impossible. I put "my" in quotes because it is in fact the mainstream interpretation of Islam, and not merely my interpretation.

On the clarifications, I did not mean to put you on the defensive: I gave the Japanese example simply to illustrate that when individuals use religion to further personal ambitions (as emperor HiroHito did) that you have a problem. Hiro Hito showed his true colors when he switched from being the warrior king to being the mild-mannered gardener king to save his own skin after WWII - and after tens of millions of people had been killed. It is these individuals who use religion who are the true enemies of all humanity, not the religion. Whether the religion is Shinto or Buddhist or Islam or Hinduism.

When Hamidm makes fun of Islam, while ignoring the real problem (those who seek to become military or religious autocrats in Pakistan), he is merely barking up the wrong tree. (and I hope Hamidm reads this and thinks about it, so he can apply his unmatched writing style and wit to proper use).

On the other clarification, I did not mean to imply that you had asked me to start a dialog with anyone - and admittedly the reason I wrote it was not clearly stated. So let me make that point a bit more clearly: You had said you agreed with harimau on one issue (quotas). It happens I too consider quotas to be counterproductive (I have seen how they are abused first hand). But I chose to draw the line with someone who thinks there is an excuse for killing innocent people (as Harimau claims was the case in Gujrat), or who routinely ridicules some community of people. You obviously dont draw such lines, and that is fine. For me, I couldnt care less what pearls of wisdom someone has to shed if he crosses certain lines.

Hope the above clarifies any misunderstanding, rather than makes confusion worse confounded. :-)

Thanks for the discussion.

arjun,

many posts later, i am doing fine, thanks for asking. hope you are doing well also. haven't emailed you for a while, but then tum bhi kab likhtay ho?!?

and i know this is not about mo and aisha. i actually know what you are getting at. as usual we disagree on tactics. :)

Krishna,

I am sorry, I did not get to read all of what you said because I am only here for a limited time, but thank you for responding to what I said all the same.

The Cantonment kuttas who have been awarded Nishaan-i-Ganjaa-Giddh from their Masters in remote-control
are really elated at this news.

Oh now let us go muslim hunting again; the massa IS COMIN' THE MASS IS COMIN'
__________________________________________________________
U.S. says Pakistan is fighting extremism decisively

07:33, July 18, 2007 The United States expects Pakistan, one of its anti-terror allies, to launch more military strikes on Islamic militants along its border with Afghanistan, senior U.S. officials said Tuesday.

"The Pakistani government is dealing decisively with the problems that have been brewing for some time," said Richard Boucher, the assistant secretary of state for south and central Asian affairs.

Citing recent developments along the Afghan border and the military siege on extremists holed up in Islamabad's Red Mosque, Boucher told a news briefing, "I think it shows that the government pared to move, to act, against a dangerous militancy that has come to infect various areas and parts of Pakistani society."

Voicing U.S. support for Pakistan's anti-terror effort, Boucher said "We have to remember that some military action is necessary, and will probably have to be taken."

Fran Townsend, U.S. President George W. Bush's homeland security advisor, also praised Musharraf's efforts to fight extremists in its border region with Afghanistan.

"I think it's fair to say (Pakistani) President Pervez Musharraf is committed to the fact that he will not permit that to be a safe haven and we will work with him to ensure that that safe haven is denied to them."

It was reported that Washington plans to spend 750 million dollars on education, health and economic projects in Pakistan's tribal areas over the next five years and is hoping to find an additional 300 million dollars to 350 million dollars in the coming year to help revamp Pakistan's beleaguered 85,000-member Frontier Corps that patrols the border.

Source: Xinhua

..the REASONS not YOU!

GT:851
You know what, it is people like you who make the reasons given for the partition look completely asinine.

thanks, but promise not to agree with me in future to this extent.

#849 Posted by echoboom:

"But anarchy, no matter how laudable, is still a very Utopian concept."

No question about it ... completely agreed. On the other hand, taking stock requires sanity. The dictator cannot be removed without the 'moderates' (oons?). The 'moderates' know what happened in Iran. So to get their support, credible and long term commitments have to be made. A credible way forward would be to talk about what kind of shariah/constitution is feasible in Pakistan today. Who knows ... there may be a huge overlap. But simply copy-pasting some Western document will not do for today's Pakistan. Pakistanis need to cut their differences and think ... be practical instead of emotional.

tahmed#841:

I think that it is time to bring this dialog to an end. Just two small clarifications:

- I did not ask you to interact with arjun or anyone else.

- I did not suggest Japanese options 1 or 2; in fact I had preferred your approach to hamidm's for remdial action.

Thanks.

838: GT
You put words in my mouth and in BOLD.
very unfair!
I'm quite aware of the nefarious practices pf the western world.. But I really admire that you too look at the things same way.

You are right on the money about that Quraanic injunction..my only contention is about the "ground realities".

In a community individually acting according to the Quraan, that "ground reality" would be redundant.

But anarchy, no matter how laudable, is still a very Utopian concept.

Re: # 841

It's time to bring this topic to a close. Only two small points:

- I did not ask you to interact with arjun or anyone else.

- I did not suggest Japanese options 1 and 2; indeed I had suggested you over hamidm for any remedial action.

Will meet again, I am sure. :)

#840 Posted by zeemax

Zee:

You say:
"You and hamidm carefully read masadi because he kind of says what you want to hear."
You know that you are not being fair here. I read what you say very carefully too.
Also, if you care about Pakistan then it is high time for you to get less emotional/angry.

zee
[...He had replied "Islamabad would become Baghdad"...]

Well - we will soon find out... pakis killing pakis is nothing new - but killing field like baghdad would be a whole different story...

I guess the time for you to oil up your guillotine and run after hamidm... :)