Preventing More Lal Masjids
Pervez Hoodbhoy July 10, 2007
#989 Posted by Al_Bundy on July 23, 2007 8:26:40 pm
An almost honest (with spin) article by a Pakistani writer in a Pakistani paper
http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=65516
Bleeding Pakistan
By Anees Jillani
I probably have spent all my life pleading with the relevant quarters not to support militancy, whether directed towards our eastern or western neighbour. However, I have always given a 'sermon' about bleeding the Indians and the doctrine of strategic depth when it came to supporting the Taliban in Afghanistan. India did not really bleed in the nineties and early part of this decade, except that the Muslims in the Indian-held Kashmir and the foreign mujahideen waging a jihad did; the Indian defence forces nevertheless definitely also incurred a cost, both financial and a substantial human loss. A few major bomb blasts in Mumbai and Delhi also resulted in extensive damage. While the Indians bled we were not spared either and had our own share of bomb blasts coinciding with the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and continuing till date. In fact, we also experienced something that the Indians did not: sectarian violence that led the factions to even kill worshippers in mosques while praying.
We may blame 9/11 for turning the tables but things had started to deteriorate prior to that. The withdrawal from the Kargil heights in 1999 was seen by many in the Indian-held Kashmir as a great betrayal and broke the back of the freedom movement that was already experiencing immense difficulties. However, 9/11 forced Pakistan to discontinue `its moral, diplomatic and political support to the freedom fighters of Kashmir'. The attack on the Indian Parliament and the consequent belligerent reaction resulted in President Musharraf making his famous January 2002 speech renouncing and denouncing all support to terrorist outfits. Several mujahideen organisations were banned following that speech.
There is no turning back and it has been our continuous fate to bleed since. The freedom fighters and the mujahideen have apparently decided to first free themselves and us from the clutches of the American sponsored rulers before turning their attention to neighbouring states. Most of these outfits have an Islamic orientation and thus also inclined to attack Shiites. The situation is thus chaotic, to say the least as the unemployed freedom fighters are constantly looking for excuses to hit at the state while the Taliban on our western borders are consolidating themselves in the tribal areas and also practice target shooting on our troops.
The most ironical part of this whole development is the sizeable support that these militants enjoy throughout Pakistan, particularly in most parts of the Frontier Province and the tribal areas. It is thus almost a `catch-22' situation in that any move to crush the militants results in gearing more public sympathy for them. The fact that the whole exercise to oppose the Islamic militants is widely seen as an American sponsored ploy does not help matters.
The Lal Masjid fiasco must be seen in light of the above context. The Indians experienced such sieges a number of times in the Indian-held Kashmir. It was now our turn to bleed. Not everybody can operate a sub-machine gun as competently and professionally as the militants did at the Lal Masjid. They were obviously trained. Where were they trained? And by whom?
Pakistan also remains one of those few countries left where one can buy machine guns, grenades and anti-air craft guns especially from the tribal areas and even from rest of Pakistan as easily if one was purchasing detergents. Our intelligence agencies most of the time know the minutest details about the personal lives of our politicians and other relevant personalities, particularly those opposed to the rulers, but cannot seem to find out how sophisticated arms reached the mosque and the madressahs. No one could even tell till the end about the estimated number of militants, students, children and women holed-up in the mosque. This is nothing short of shocking and a shame as the crisis did not erupt suddenly and had been brewing since January this year. What were our agencies and the interior ministry personnel doing all this time?
It is for history and the public to judge as to how the crisis was handled. However, it became obvious to all that the country has no force and mechanism to deal with such situations. There are special forces constituted to control such eventualities in other countries. Special committees or task forces are automatically convened in such situations. We had none and the government did not even bother to call a meeting of the National Security Council in the midst of such an embarrassing quandary. We ended up doing what we always do in such situations: rely on the military. The civilians were nowhere in the picture.
The prime minister mercifully was not on a foreign tour but the interior minister was in Rome to advise the Afghans about improving law and order in their country, while the interior secretary was in Delhi to jointly control terrorism with the Indians. It did not matter that these two key personnel of the interior ministry were not in the country.
The army is not trained to conduct such rescue missions. Patience is the name of the game in such situations while the army usually employs brute power, coupled with tactics, to crush the enemy and this is exactly what we eventually witnessed. It is not the job of the army to negotiate; however, the terms of reference for such assignments in our country are inter-mingled anyway as almost one-third of our top-most diplomats posted abroad are former military generals.
There were no professionals available to negotiate on the government's behalf and the president of the ruling party ended up being the top negotiator. The militants within the Lal mosque till the end kept complaining that they had a hard time understanding Chaudhry Shujaat on the mega-phone and asked him to negotiate face to face; they should have known better. There was no one willing and available to represent the Government of Pakistan in front of these talibs, most of whom were probably in their twenties.
The irony is that nothing has changed even after this bitter experience. The whole world was being told for the past five years that the western media was unnecessarily maligning the madressahs that were rendering immense service. The Americans were rolling in millions of dollars to institutionalise madressahs and improve their system of functioning and they were led to believe that their dollars had turned these religious schools into nothing less than regular high schools in California. However, the fact that a school in the capital of Pakistan right under the noses of our rulers and intelligence agencies was armed to the teeth goes to show the level of inefficiency of our institutions.
The problem is that the world may like to write us off and may avoid us as if we have the plague. But we remain one of the major countries in terms of population and export of terrorism if even a small segment of the populace could prove to be nightmarish for the world. And what are those opposed to militancy and freedom fighting supposed to do in these circumstances? There may be millions in this world who did not clap when the twin towers collapsed in New York but did not clap either when the Americans bombed Iraq and Afghanistan back to the Stone Age? Where do these folks fit in this era of `enlightened moderation?'
The writer is a freelance columnist. Email: aneesjillani@yahoo.com
http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=65516
Bleeding Pakistan
By Anees Jillani
I probably have spent all my life pleading with the relevant quarters not to support militancy, whether directed towards our eastern or western neighbour. However, I have always given a 'sermon' about bleeding the Indians and the doctrine of strategic depth when it came to supporting the Taliban in Afghanistan. India did not really bleed in the nineties and early part of this decade, except that the Muslims in the Indian-held Kashmir and the foreign mujahideen waging a jihad did; the Indian defence forces nevertheless definitely also incurred a cost, both financial and a substantial human loss. A few major bomb blasts in Mumbai and Delhi also resulted in extensive damage. While the Indians bled we were not spared either and had our own share of bomb blasts coinciding with the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and continuing till date. In fact, we also experienced something that the Indians did not: sectarian violence that led the factions to even kill worshippers in mosques while praying.
We may blame 9/11 for turning the tables but things had started to deteriorate prior to that. The withdrawal from the Kargil heights in 1999 was seen by many in the Indian-held Kashmir as a great betrayal and broke the back of the freedom movement that was already experiencing immense difficulties. However, 9/11 forced Pakistan to discontinue `its moral, diplomatic and political support to the freedom fighters of Kashmir'. The attack on the Indian Parliament and the consequent belligerent reaction resulted in President Musharraf making his famous January 2002 speech renouncing and denouncing all support to terrorist outfits. Several mujahideen organisations were banned following that speech.
There is no turning back and it has been our continuous fate to bleed since. The freedom fighters and the mujahideen have apparently decided to first free themselves and us from the clutches of the American sponsored rulers before turning their attention to neighbouring states. Most of these outfits have an Islamic orientation and thus also inclined to attack Shiites. The situation is thus chaotic, to say the least as the unemployed freedom fighters are constantly looking for excuses to hit at the state while the Taliban on our western borders are consolidating themselves in the tribal areas and also practice target shooting on our troops.
The most ironical part of this whole development is the sizeable support that these militants enjoy throughout Pakistan, particularly in most parts of the Frontier Province and the tribal areas. It is thus almost a `catch-22' situation in that any move to crush the militants results in gearing more public sympathy for them. The fact that the whole exercise to oppose the Islamic militants is widely seen as an American sponsored ploy does not help matters.
The Lal Masjid fiasco must be seen in light of the above context. The Indians experienced such sieges a number of times in the Indian-held Kashmir. It was now our turn to bleed. Not everybody can operate a sub-machine gun as competently and professionally as the militants did at the Lal Masjid. They were obviously trained. Where were they trained? And by whom?
Pakistan also remains one of those few countries left where one can buy machine guns, grenades and anti-air craft guns especially from the tribal areas and even from rest of Pakistan as easily if one was purchasing detergents. Our intelligence agencies most of the time know the minutest details about the personal lives of our politicians and other relevant personalities, particularly those opposed to the rulers, but cannot seem to find out how sophisticated arms reached the mosque and the madressahs. No one could even tell till the end about the estimated number of militants, students, children and women holed-up in the mosque. This is nothing short of shocking and a shame as the crisis did not erupt suddenly and had been brewing since January this year. What were our agencies and the interior ministry personnel doing all this time?
It is for history and the public to judge as to how the crisis was handled. However, it became obvious to all that the country has no force and mechanism to deal with such situations. There are special forces constituted to control such eventualities in other countries. Special committees or task forces are automatically convened in such situations. We had none and the government did not even bother to call a meeting of the National Security Council in the midst of such an embarrassing quandary. We ended up doing what we always do in such situations: rely on the military. The civilians were nowhere in the picture.
The prime minister mercifully was not on a foreign tour but the interior minister was in Rome to advise the Afghans about improving law and order in their country, while the interior secretary was in Delhi to jointly control terrorism with the Indians. It did not matter that these two key personnel of the interior ministry were not in the country.
The army is not trained to conduct such rescue missions. Patience is the name of the game in such situations while the army usually employs brute power, coupled with tactics, to crush the enemy and this is exactly what we eventually witnessed. It is not the job of the army to negotiate; however, the terms of reference for such assignments in our country are inter-mingled anyway as almost one-third of our top-most diplomats posted abroad are former military generals.
There were no professionals available to negotiate on the government's behalf and the president of the ruling party ended up being the top negotiator. The militants within the Lal mosque till the end kept complaining that they had a hard time understanding Chaudhry Shujaat on the mega-phone and asked him to negotiate face to face; they should have known better. There was no one willing and available to represent the Government of Pakistan in front of these talibs, most of whom were probably in their twenties.
The irony is that nothing has changed even after this bitter experience. The whole world was being told for the past five years that the western media was unnecessarily maligning the madressahs that were rendering immense service. The Americans were rolling in millions of dollars to institutionalise madressahs and improve their system of functioning and they were led to believe that their dollars had turned these religious schools into nothing less than regular high schools in California. However, the fact that a school in the capital of Pakistan right under the noses of our rulers and intelligence agencies was armed to the teeth goes to show the level of inefficiency of our institutions.
The problem is that the world may like to write us off and may avoid us as if we have the plague. But we remain one of the major countries in terms of population and export of terrorism if even a small segment of the populace could prove to be nightmarish for the world. And what are those opposed to militancy and freedom fighting supposed to do in these circumstances? There may be millions in this world who did not clap when the twin towers collapsed in New York but did not clap either when the Americans bombed Iraq and Afghanistan back to the Stone Age? Where do these folks fit in this era of `enlightened moderation?'
The writer is a freelance columnist. Email: aneesjillani@yahoo.com
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#988 Posted by muqaddam on July 22, 2007 5:54:51 am
#956
Are we looking at a communist revolution a-la-Bolshevik revolution in Russia in 1917?
Are we looking at a communist revolution a-la-Bolshevik revolution in Russia in 1917?
#987 Posted by krishna_abcd on July 21, 2007 2:48:34 pm
#979 Posted by KaalChakra
[It seems that the world is (almost) always fully just: we are totally just to others, and others are totally unjust to us. Why mess with this perfection?
:)]
This is music to the ears of the "liberals" - the JNU types and the Islamic apologists - It's 50-50 down the middle. It's eveybody's fault, everybody is
equally to blame.
Here's a dialogue between me and a Islamic Apologist (therefore intellectual) Indian :
Islamic Apologist: Everybody is equally just. Everybody shares the blame equally. Every ideology is equally good/bad. Naziism, Communism,
Fasciism, Non-violence, Shintoism, Buddhism, Jainism, Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam etc. - all are equally bad or good. Everybody is equally to
blame...
Me: Oh really... Okay.... So let's see....
India - Hindus' blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
Thailand - Buddhists' blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
China - Chinese govt's blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
Australia - Australian's blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
UK - Britishers' blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
USA - American's blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
Russia - Russians' blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
Yugoslavia - Christians' blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
Spain - Spanish people's blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
Israel - Jews' blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
Iran - Non-Muslims' blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
France - French people's blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
Netherlands - DUtch people's blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
Germany - Germans' blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
Islamic Apologist: In any case, the only reason Muslims are the common denominator is because of the Mullahs - a recent phenomenon. But in the past,
starting from Muhammad's time, everything was VERY peaceful. You see, Islam is a religion of peace.
Me: A RECENT phenomenon? Can you give me a period of time in Islamic history starting from muhammad's time when there was any peace?
Islamic Apologist: Oh, that was because of the treacherous non-believers. They needed to be defeated, so some violence was necessary, and justified,
and sanctioned by Allah.
Me: Ah. I see, that's why this violence has never stopped. Because there are still treacherous non-believers left.
Islamic Apologist: Exactly!
Me: So why is this "necessary" violence any different from that of Hitler, Stalin etc.
Islamic Apologist: Ah! That's because Hitler, Stalin were not Allah's messengers.... That was an easy one...
Me: And WHO says that muhammad was an Allah's messenger?
Islamic Apologist: Oh, it's obvious from the message....
Me: Exactly WHICH part of which message in the Koran makes you think this way?
Islamic Apologist: Let's not get into specifics here. You sound like a hater....
Me: But that was just a simple question....
Islamic Apologist: Why are you such a HATER? How about YOUR religion? Rat-worshipper! Idolator! Pagan!
Me: Okay so I am a hater. But how about the question? Can I get an answer?
Islamic Apologist: Hater! Intolerant! Modi-follower! RSS suicide bomber! VHP member! Cow-piss drinker! Idolator!
Me: Ummm...okay...bye...
[It seems that the world is (almost) always fully just: we are totally just to others, and others are totally unjust to us. Why mess with this perfection?
:)]
This is music to the ears of the "liberals" - the JNU types and the Islamic apologists - It's 50-50 down the middle. It's eveybody's fault, everybody is
equally to blame.
Here's a dialogue between me and a Islamic Apologist (therefore intellectual) Indian :
Islamic Apologist: Everybody is equally just. Everybody shares the blame equally. Every ideology is equally good/bad. Naziism, Communism,
Fasciism, Non-violence, Shintoism, Buddhism, Jainism, Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam etc. - all are equally bad or good. Everybody is equally to
blame...
Me: Oh really... Okay.... So let's see....
India - Hindus' blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
Thailand - Buddhists' blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
China - Chinese govt's blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
Australia - Australian's blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
UK - Britishers' blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
USA - American's blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
Russia - Russians' blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
Yugoslavia - Christians' blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
Spain - Spanish people's blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
Israel - Jews' blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
Iran - Non-Muslims' blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
France - French people's blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
Netherlands - DUtch people's blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
Germany - Germans' blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
Islamic Apologist: In any case, the only reason Muslims are the common denominator is because of the Mullahs - a recent phenomenon. But in the past,
starting from Muhammad's time, everything was VERY peaceful. You see, Islam is a religion of peace.
Me: A RECENT phenomenon? Can you give me a period of time in Islamic history starting from muhammad's time when there was any peace?
Islamic Apologist: Oh, that was because of the treacherous non-believers. They needed to be defeated, so some violence was necessary, and justified,
and sanctioned by Allah.
Me: Ah. I see, that's why this violence has never stopped. Because there are still treacherous non-believers left.
Islamic Apologist: Exactly!
Me: So why is this "necessary" violence any different from that of Hitler, Stalin etc.
Islamic Apologist: Ah! That's because Hitler, Stalin were not Allah's messengers.... That was an easy one...
Me: And WHO says that muhammad was an Allah's messenger?
Islamic Apologist: Oh, it's obvious from the message....
Me: Exactly WHICH part of which message in the Koran makes you think this way?
Islamic Apologist: Let's not get into specifics here. You sound like a hater....
Me: But that was just a simple question....
Islamic Apologist: Why are you such a HATER? How about YOUR religion? Rat-worshipper! Idolator! Pagan!
Me: Okay so I am a hater. But how about the question? Can I get an answer?
Islamic Apologist: Hater! Intolerant! Modi-follower! RSS suicide bomber! VHP member! Cow-piss drinker! Idolator!
Me: Ummm...okay...bye...
#986 Posted by foggy1 on July 21, 2007 9:20:39 am
what is the use of following events developing,with eyes wide open and brain fully geared to be able to arrive at a prognosis.and yet the end seems shocking.are we in a state of calculated denial.is there any room for mild and lenient thought?and hope. do you have any scientific methodology to guide and nip the horrific in the bud before it is too late? like it was recently qed
#984 Posted by philosopher on July 20, 2007 2:17:12 pm
Dedicated to CJ
UNhi ke faiz say bazara-i-aqal roushan hai
Jo gaahay ba gaahay janoon ikhtiaar kartay hain
UNhi ke faiz say bazara-i-aqal roushan hai
Jo gaahay ba gaahay janoon ikhtiaar kartay hain
#983 Posted by masadi on July 20, 2007 10:33:47 am
#981, tahmed, peon of the West, whether I "fetch samosas" according to your dimwit mentality, or "drive a cab in nyc", according to your friend Hamid, the fact is that I outsmart both you a-holes on Chowk, that is all the recognition I seek for the time being....
#981 Posted by tahmed32 on July 20, 2007 10:23:55 am
#980 masadi: you write "I had predicted long before..."
You are so extremely smart!! Too bad the world does not recognize you genius, and has you running fetching samosas and tea for staff in Govt College, Mian Channu.
You are so extremely smart!! Too bad the world does not recognize you genius, and has you running fetching samosas and tea for staff in Govt College, Mian Channu.
#980 Posted by masadi on July 20, 2007 10:16:15 am
I had predicted long before today's decision restoring the CJ to his office, that this crisis, manufactured by the Americans, using the Pakistan Army in order to punish Musharraf, will lead to its logical end, i.e. a decision against Musharraf. The fools among the people will say that this is a historic moment for Pakistan, something is changing and the Army is losing its authority. Wrong answer, and utopian dreams. The Army is still in charge, Musharraf is losing authority (two different things), because he has lost American support (the main difference between the two).
Don't interpret me wrong. I am not for Musharraf, the sob will get what he deserves soon but these adjustments by the Americans only harm Pakistan and Pakistanis and do not benefit it. The same judiciary that has before always legitimized military rule in Pakistan, cannot change overnight because a CJ took some meds that enhanced the size of his b****. No that is not the case, without military backing this crisis wasn't possible, without military backing this decision was not possible. Now the poor bas**** Musharraf, like I said earlier is running helter skelter like a trapped mouse, one crisis after another. America is leaving no options open for him except for his resignation and a quick sub lease of the Mian's summer home in Saudi Arabia, or a hellfire, with the finger prints of a Mullah, aimed right for his a$$. He knows it, he is scared but he is also stupid, he thinks that somehow he will manage to escape from it all, keep the uniform and keep the presidency and redevelop his relationship with the Americans.....wont happen...
Don't interpret me wrong. I am not for Musharraf, the sob will get what he deserves soon but these adjustments by the Americans only harm Pakistan and Pakistanis and do not benefit it. The same judiciary that has before always legitimized military rule in Pakistan, cannot change overnight because a CJ took some meds that enhanced the size of his b****. No that is not the case, without military backing this crisis wasn't possible, without military backing this decision was not possible. Now the poor bas**** Musharraf, like I said earlier is running helter skelter like a trapped mouse, one crisis after another. America is leaving no options open for him except for his resignation and a quick sub lease of the Mian's summer home in Saudi Arabia, or a hellfire, with the finger prints of a Mullah, aimed right for his a$$. He knows it, he is scared but he is also stupid, he thinks that somehow he will manage to escape from it all, keep the uniform and keep the presidency and redevelop his relationship with the Americans.....wont happen...
#979 Posted by KaalChakra on July 20, 2007 10:00:41 am
tahmedji and Dash_Dot
It seems that the world is (almost) always fully just: we are totally just to others, and others are totally unjust to us. Why mess with this perfection? :)
It seems that the world is (almost) always fully just: we are totally just to others, and others are totally unjust to us. Why mess with this perfection? :)
#978 Posted by tahmed32 on July 20, 2007 6:53:59 am
Dash_Dot: Maybe your stop watch is on Arab Standard Time. :-)
But agreed - chowk staff has I think done more harm than good with this format change. What is the point of having a south asian website if only people with broadband connections in the west can access it without undue wait!!
But agreed - chowk staff has I think done more harm than good with this format change. What is the point of having a south asian website if only people with broadband connections in the west can access it without undue wait!!
#977 Posted by Dash_Dot on July 20, 2007 5:48:14 am
#971 after I posted that reply to you, this damn page took 2.25 mins to load - which is a very long time. Damn Chowk Staff pliss do sometihng about this.
#975 Posted by tahmed32 on July 20, 2007 5:39:33 am
#974 borivili_express of course. (at least that is what i understand, after skimming over borivili's post complaining about some indian muslims not getting their day in court or something).
#974 Posted by harish_hyd on July 20, 2007 5:33:00 am
#972 Posted by tahmed32
What Kaalchakra meant was: "Stop whining".
Whining? Who is doing it? Me, Kaal, or borivili_express?
What Kaalchakra meant was: "Stop whining".
Whining? Who is doing it? Me, Kaal, or borivili_express?
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