Preventing More Lal Masjids

#827 Posted by philosopher,

Yes ... I'm deeply disturbed to discover masadi is no more than a hypocrite. If 'God will deal with them', surely 'God must be competent to deal with the US Elite' as well. So why rant and rave against the US Elite ... ?

But no. He wants the US Elite fixed in the here and now, and the apostates in the hereafter, for some curious reason.

#823 Posted by khurram

(((He is talking about people peacefully changing their religion and peacefully propagating their new faith.))))

OK...Khurram mian..;

will you please explain what mischief in land is??? if urging muslims to change their faith...oh sorry even peacfully... is not ''mischief in land'' than whatelse is???

i have clarfied it earlier that death penality is NOT the minimum punishment for the apostasy...but it can be implemented if state sees it fit.

My interpretation of Islam(on the philosophical and spirtual level) is hell lot of different than the One Mullahs hold but without a social system how would you preserve those islamic values which differentiate islam from other systems or the values that islam so dearly holds, is beyond me.

i don't know how Masadi would deal with irshad manji, asra nomani and liberaloon and kanjaroon type 'muslims. will he try to stop them with piyaar mohabbat? how would his ''islam'' deal with the supporter of same sex marriage?? what if someone starts supporting incest and this kind of stuff?

Why does Masadi wanna get rid of colonialism and its influence??? what alternative has he got? is it possible to get rid of colonialisma and westren influence without having a social-political system???

#823 Posted by khurram

He is talking about people peacefully changing their religion and peacefully propagating their new faith.

No problem with peacefully changing religion or abandoning it altogether in personal affairs, but it will not be given public sanction. As for propagating their new faith after apostatizing, the punishment is death via the most excruciating methods. There's no question about that.

Khurram:823

We ALL are on the same page here. How can we not. we all read the same book...and this is primary stuff.

The "ground-reality" is that once someone abandons his religion and then starts to even "peacefully-propagate" among others of his former faith..peace is bound to be disturbed....and every effort must be made to avoid this disturbance of peace.

Muslims are NOT supposed to propagate to non-muslim until and unless they are approached by them. The huge surge in conversion to Islam post 911 is like the sun shining & for all to see.

Of course after conquering the enemy there are different rules..for right reasons.

Hindus and Muslims lived peacefully in India precisely for this reason. The christian zeal to convert is getting them what they deserve.

Our Nabi (pbuh) was bringing back on track those MUSLIMS of Ibraheem who had become MUSHRIK...He had nothing whatsoever to do with christans or jews. The pacts within the community is a living proof of recognising this fact.

#818 Posted by aquaris,

The attack on Lal Masjid was not an attack on (so-called) extremism, it was an attack on Islam itself, whatever version, and has been perceived as such. Those people never hurt a fly. Just picked a few up and dropped them back after serving them with tea and long lectures. On the other hand, there're mafias all over the country, and the murderers of May 12 are right there perfectly identified in the videos and none has been touched.

That's why the Wafaq-ul-Madaras, MMA, and all religiously inclined people regardless of 'maslak' who opposed their methods tooth and nail, are now alienated. Many people say Pakistan is no more an Islamic state. Besides, the lies by the administration has made it worse. The 'foreigners' are still to be found (one declared as such was identified as coming from Attock by his parents), no hostages, no rockets, no tunnels, no landmines, no suicide-bombers, no hardened bunkers (just sandbags), no fortified walls .... and a thousand missing bodies including 600 plus women and children.

So you're right. This will not be brushed under the carpet.

echo/zee/philospher

You guys are being unfair to masadi.

He is not arguing against punishment for treason, sabotage, rebellion or 'making mischief in the land'.

He is talking about people peacefully changing their religion and peacefully propagating their new faith.

masadi:
..."that is the mullah's doing not the system of the Quran...."

anyone who comments on Quraan IS a mulla..whether he holds it as a paid job or tries to convince others that he is the sole authority.

I am certainly not one..but you do pretend to be one.

Mulla is a metaphor not a person with beard or gown or one who is orthodox.

Mulla is a Pehlvi word..it is not even farsi! It is of Zorzastrian origin ...and it was their mulla who was reviled and denigrated..just as Peer-i-mughaan and Saaqui were celebrated. This tradition entered Hindvi..and by the time the Britto-Baboons arrived with their "enlightenment" our Kavaa-Gidghs started using it against their own.

Have you ever wondered why the Chritian clergy is never held in such reviled contempt desite the Inquisition & the vatican's horrible past of against scince & free-enquiry?

Marx certainly was the one who had a book; but he was certainly no prophet...I do not think Mirza-Marx has any chance of second coming... Even his first orgasm lasted only 50 seconds in history-era equivalent.

...contd...#820 Posted by zeemax,

And yes Masadi Mian, I have rudimentary knowledge of Qur'an. It is because I have only learnt from you that in fact Qura'an was written for word-indexing sociologists with a firm grasp of rational reality like your goodself, and not for ordinary tent-dwelling Bedouins like me. Thanks.

#817 Posted by masadi,

The argument is that if someone chooses to disbelieve in Islam after believing in it, the Jihadists like Zeemax, who by the way has rudimentary knowledge of the Quran at best, want to kill them ..

Masadi Mian,

Please do not twist my repeated statements. I never said the above. What I HAVE Said and say again is that PROSELYTIZING apostates such as Hamidm2 should be killed. Anyone who is an apostate at heart or insignificant being mentally incompetent (like the prophetess Sajjah in Abu Bakr's time) should be left alone and laughed away.

...contd...#815 Posted by zeemax,

... the toddler's name was Hassaan, thereby his wife adopting the name Umm-e-Hassaan (mother of Hassaan).

Dictators are a POISON to any civil Society.

Pakistan own experience , in this regard is a testimony to it.

The first dictator, inspite of " Decade of Progress ", nurturned the seeds of discontent and alienation..resulting in the ultimate seperation of the two wings.

The second dictator, firmly divided this so called , god forsaken Nation (..?....) into every convievable division.
Provincial,religious,consititutional...etc...etc...etc....and worst of all ethinic....
and Pakistan is still reeling under the impact of those divisions....
and the gulf is widening day by day..

This third Dictator has firmly put Pakistan on the path of Disintegration....... Period.

echo writes "Once it is established that the one engaged in sabotage and sedition against muslims ( call it apostasy or whatever) he deserves a punishment by the Islamic State."

Mian learn the meaning of apostasy, you are misusing it. If someone is planning on killing Muslims bagher e haq, ie. unjustified, he has to be stopped of course, if anyone is planning on killing any human being Muslim or not begher e haq, he or she needs to be stopped as well, no argument there. The argument is that if someone chooses to disbelieve in Islam after believing in it, the Jihadists like Zeemax, who by the way has rudimentary knowledge of the Quran at best, want to kill them- that is an outrage against the Quran and Islam. Regarding the Islamic state, that itself is an invention against the Quran. Islam is a deen, a social system in which there is no rigid bureaucratic structure except for the all encompassing reality of la ilaha il allah, within that framework of the bare minimum, it allows maximum freedom on how people can, based on justice design their institutions. It does not provide a canonized all encompassing pre moulded cast for all societies and all times, that is the mullah's doing not the system of the Quran.

Zeemax writes "Yaar GT, even the method and frequency of prayer is not in the Qura'an, so 5 times Namaz (AND with different sets of rikaats)is out of the window. Then, only food and drink is prohibited during fasting ... so smoking pot is OK. Many other things like that"

If I had a dollar every time a hadithist said this in order to legitimize ALL hadith (even those that do not deal with the above), I'd have over a million, and then I wouldnt need, to quote hamid, return to NY and drive a cab. Actually like I said, the Quran says that if the trees were pens and the oceans with more oceans to back them up were ink even then Allah's words wouldn't be exhausted, so you need to think why he CHOSE not to give you discriptions of the salah etc, even though every detail of them is mentioned in the Quran? Because these things are not transmitted through word but through witnessing and where to witness them is precisely pointed out in the Quran "shatar al mesjid el haraam", that is where you get the physical practice of salah from. Regarding those other allegations of things not mentioned in the Quran, that shows your rudimentary knowledge of it, but that certainly does not mean that everything outside the Quran becomes part of Islam or that inventions that have become part of Islam then become an argument for the inadequacy of the Quran. When Allah is saying that he has neglected NOTHING in the book, these CVI followers, followers of the Crusader Version of Islam, ie.Jihadists tell Allah that he left out this and that....go figure...their Islam is not Islam its sloganeering and facilitating the higher immorality of the Shaitan of the present, i.e. the US elite...

Dictators are a POISON to any civil Society.

Pakistan own experience , in this regard is a testimony to it.

The first dictator, inspite of " Decade of Progress ", nurturned the seeds of discontent and alienation..resulting in the ultimate seperation of the two wings.

The second dictator, firmly divided this so called , god forsaken Nation (..?....) into every convievable division.
Provincial,religious,consititutional...etc...etc...etc....and worst of all ethinic....
and Pakistan is still reeling under the impact of those divisions....
and the gulf is widening day by day..

This third Dictator has firmly put Pakistan on the path of Disintegration....... Period.

#814 Posted by GT,

none of Aziz's family (except his brother) died.'

GT ... Abdul Aziz's toddler son died ... whose body has still not been handed over, besides their elderly mother of-course.

But you're right. Entire Waziristan is now officially up in rebellion, plus Swat. It won't take long before it spreads. I think, we're in a civil war.

I believe that the Lal Masjid fallout will be significant. It would not surprise me even if Punjab were to be shaken. The Gobelian machinery is already, I believe, countering it. A friend of mine in Lahore informed me of the following rumour:

'The whole thing was actually planned by Abdul Aziz and the dictator (who are very close) to get rid of Abdul Rashid. As a proof it is pointed out that none of Aziz's family (except his brother) died.'

Is any Lahorian chowky aware of this rumour?

This was a Muslim.

Who had the courage to say to the media on a cellphone in a perfectly calm voice moments before his murder, that now I can see them right in front who have come to kill me ... and had said what ever he did, was not for any personal glory but for Allah's 'Nizam' and people should continue that.



It appears many people indeed heeded him.