Preventing More Lal Masjids

#809 Posted by GT,

Yaar GT, even the method and frequency of prayer is not in the Qura'an, so 5 times Namaz (AND with different sets of rikaats)is out of the window. Then, only food and drink is prohibited during fasting ... so smoking pot is OK. Many other things like that.

Pls ask masadi saheb if his Islam originated somewhere in some Dargah in Nepal?

Not that I have anything against any of the above though ... but just for argument's sake ... :)

#808 Posted by philosopher,

Yaar Philo Bhai, you don't have to defend "zee's version of islam". You can see millions defending it around the world.

Masadi's philosophy of 'God will deal with them' is real weird. What he means is to turn around and give them grease when he's being buggered ... and let 'God deal with them', but in the meantime let 'them' have all the fun.

Don't resist, don't fight, don't punish, don't get weapons, love thy enemy, and fcuk his wife and let him fcuk yours. That's what Masadi means.

Thanks, but no thanks.

GT:807
Instructions for Jadaal (wrangling, debate, argument, coercing.....etc etc) and Qataal ( outright murder , killing,
c-punishing ) are not only sanctioned but muslims as individuals are exhorted to do so.

An Islamic State is or should be a sum-total & a mirror image of such ethos...and carry out the injunctions of the Quraa'an under such collective will.

There is no mystery in this & nothing sacred or secular about it either.

A very wise and clear-cult direction.

Reply to #807 by echoboom:

Boom sahib:

Now you are getting a bit rattled by masadi aren't you? You say:

'Once it is established that the one engaged in sabotage and sedition against muslims ( call it apostasy or whatever) he deserves a punishment by the Islamic State."

I am sorry, but I believe that masadi will not give you even that. As far as I understand masadi, historical precedence is not enough for him to justify a policy that is not formulated in the Koran. You got to argue about its merit based on present circumstances. And if such an arguement is acceptable in a democratic forum then so be it, otherwise forget it. He is not asking you to forget history, as kaal and zee have implied earlier, he is simply asking you to defend your policy based on present day reality.

Boom sahib, I do not believe that masadi is going around in circles. He has been saying the same thing for a long time. I would not call him any of your 'oons'. He is simply puritanical about the Koran and democracy ... reminds me of Calvin at times.

Humsab/Masadi

pidare sahib...thanx for your question...i won't diagree with his article long as it has practical value.. when he says that ''according to situation'' so why cannot we follow ''zee's version of islam to counter other ideologies. In this situation Islamic civilization needs a comprehensive ideological system to fight other ideologies which are trying to overcome/penetrate it.

If we stick to Masadi's version in this situation we won't be having even this moderate version after a couple of decades.

I won't disagree with Masadi when he says that there is no clergy in islam but denying a scoio_political version on the analogy of ' no punishment for trimming beard' and the 'no punishment for apostatsy'is what i have never expected from a person like Masadi.

how would we implement islamic family laws if we don't have islamic socio-political system? what if liberaloon muslims like 'irshad manji' start campaigning in support of the lesbian marriages?? how would you stop them? with 'piyaar mohabbat bhaari batain???

masadi:
You love to go around in circles , don't you?

Once it is established that the one engaged in sabotage and sedition against muslims ( call it apostasy or whatever) he deserves a punishment by the Islamic State.

Rest of what you say is simply details which can be discussed with those who specialize in these matters.

P.S: I am not very qualified in this area. There are plenty of sources available even for you...and I did suggest that you access them. Have you not noticed that, unlike you, I do not sound authoritative in every disciplines?

" ... after the guns stop firing and the hostages are out, whether dead or alive?"

So now that the guns have stopped firing and this article is near its timely death, where are the 'hostages' whether dead or alive?

Philosopher writes " So in that kind of system if you let go apostate and 'deviant' so easily it will be recepie for disaster,it will minimize its utility as a socio-political system "

That is your "Islam", not the Islam of the Quran. The Islam of the Quran is established in the heavens and on earth, regardless of human bs, it is not threatened by "apostates"- you are apparently unaware of this aspect of the Quran and yet the "comprehensive socio-political system" you talk about is all invented through the ages as Islam got clergified and "religionized". Except for broad guidelines the keep you in place among the scheme of things, the Quran does not provide comprehensive control of behavior that stunts growth and prevents thinking from developing. It gives maximum freedom within a very narrow set of rules. Thus its injunctions against "inventing" against Allah for which no sanction is found in the Quran as also the statements that "I find nothing forbidden except a,b,c,d.." and so forth.

Then he writes "Masadi misses a point here when he says 'God will deal with them' off course he will but what is jurisprudence there for??"

Just like you cannot punish me for trimming my hair (it is not considered a crime to be punished according to the Quran) similarly you cannot punish an apostate (because it is not considered by the Quran to be a crime punishable in THIS WORLD). You cannot invent laws where none exist and then assume the role of Allah by translating his Day of Judment specific actions into what you do in this world.

echo wrote " One "writer" used words...the one who expressed opinion that such a person be killed also used words. Did something happen? "

Yes, the one who used "words" to seek his killing had authority among a large number of people which meant his words would be carried out in deed. Regarding the first, that damn fool wrote a piece of fiction for whatever perverse motive, regarding the second he invented a lie against Allah by making the "killing of apostates" a part (through invention) of Islam. The crime of the second is no less than the crime of the first and I'll be damned if I "turn the other cheek" to allow inventors and followers of the Crusader Version of Islam dominate the Muslim world because they are minions of the Shaitan, they dance to his tunes. By the way philosopher the Mullah's struggle against colonization has only amounted to facilitation of their perverse ends, it has done absolutely nothing to either preserve the Islamic identity (which it was eradicate moreso than preserve)or to check colonial expansion. Why all of you reactionaries get so worked up when what I say is backed by the Quran, proves that your "Islam Islam" chatter is just hollow sloganeering. By the way echo, I was not suggesting "turning the other cheek", where did you gather that from in my posts? Or are you arguing against "straw men" that exist only in the magical worldview of the Jihadists...

Philosopher ji
What are your views on the views exprssed in the article posted below? I think you will not agree to most of it.
Regards

Islam Is A Faith Like Any Other Religion
17 Jul 2007, Tahir Mahmood

Believing in the existence of One Supreme and Omnipresent God, one tends to respect the spirituality of all religious faiths as the common heritage of mankind. If there is a God, it has to be One: there cannot be one God for Muslims and another for followers of other religions. If He is merciful and compassionate as the Qur'an says, He cannot reserve Heaven for one chosen community and commit all others to Hell.

In accordance with the Qur'anic exhortation that God sent His messengers to all parts of the globe only some of whom the Holy Book names, include among them Moses and Christ, Buddha and Mahavir, Ram and Krishna, and give them equal respect. The Holy Vedas and the Bhagavad Gita are, like the Torah and the Bible, covered by the Qur'anic concept of suhif-il-oula or earlier scriptures.

Believing in the symbolic and metaphorical nature of teachings of the Qur'an and all other holy books, i do not always take them literally and hardly adhere to any rites and rituals. I have a firm faith in the divinity of the Holy Qur'an, but find no sense in reading it ritually without understanding its meaning and message. Prophet Muhammad was a great social reformer whose revolutionary teachings were much ahead of his time. His authentic saying 'verily i am a human being so obey me in religious matters but not necessarily in worldly affairs' is the guiding principle of my life.

Whatever Prophet Muhammad did in his personal life is not Sunnat to be blindly followed by all for all times to come.

There is nothing wrong in adopting innocuous local customs. Everything Arab is not necessarily Islamic, too. No religion can claim to have a monopoly on truth. If religion has to be retained in society it has to be as a cementing force, not a dividing element. If religions create rift between people we would be happy without any.

Followers of various religions claim the existence of rudiments, or even complete formulations, of human rights in their scriptures and other holy books. Cons-picuous violations of human rights should not take place in the name of religion. Religions are not ends in themselves but means to achieve justice, fairplay and humane solutions to all our societal and individual problems. Rigid rules of religion should be ignored where this ensures a more humane behaviour.

The following is a translation of my Urdu poem: "What comes out of the core of my heart do i state/ Humanity is suffering, and a cure may i suggest i may not be keeping fast on a hot summer day/ To the hungry but a piece of bread i must give away/ Obligatory religious tax i might be failing to pay/ But a crying child i should make smile on my way/ ...A helping hand to cross the road i offer to the blind/ Rather than offering to a shrine a devotional cover/ Offering a garment to the poorly clad do i prefer/ Flowers for worship i don't pick every morning/ But those thorns on the road i keep on removing/ Ram's name i do not keep on ritually uttering/ But a promise made to anyone i must be fulfilling/ These values of humanism as my religion i cherish/ Everyone else's religion too these values be, i wish".

The writer is member, Law Commission of India.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=20077\17\story_17-7-2007_pg3_2

This paki wants to teach mullahs the ideals of non-violence... :)

#899:

The word "against" is missing in the sentence "I won’t be at all surprised if a survey reveals that a majority of Muslims are indeed againstOBL and his brand of Islam.

anil, tahmed:

Sorry, I did not get back to you earlier. The new format did not allow me to log-in until chowk modified my nick. The new format makes it cumbersome to search for your interacts but here is my response based on the memory of their contents.

anil:

No, I am not qualified to write an article on the Quran. First, I am not a Muslim and, given my background, I am bound to have some biases if not prejudices. I do not respect even my own religion, so cannot be expected to review the sacred book of anyone else’s religion.

Secondly, I have not technically even read the quran, merely an Urdu translation. Each language has its own unique features and nuances which get lost in the translation. My reading of the Quran revealed an angry, jealous and vengeful God, but one who is not without mercy and grace for those who genuinely feel remorse for their acts. I did not see the Quran as a document of peace; unlike the Hindu mantras, the surahs do not end with shanti, shanti; the repeated message is one of severe punishment for those who do not accept monotheism and who refuse to obey Allah and his Prophet Mohammad. The tone is one of fire and brimstone reminiscent of many passages of the Old Testament. But then, this may be all due to my own biases.

Thirdly, the study of the Quran is a vast subject for which people spend many years at places like Qoom, Deoband and Al Azhar. Each surah and ayah has to be studied in depth with respect to the sequence of its revelation and the context in which it was revealed with the help of one or more ahadith. It is such a study which may lead one to decide what the core message of the Quran really is. I have absolutely no expertise in this area.


tahmed:

You are right that many prominent Muslims –even wahabis- have criticized, indeed condemned terrorism and terrorists. I won’t be at all surprised if a survey reveals that a majority of Muslims are indeed OBL and his brand of Islam. But I was referring to the criticism of Islam and not of terrorism or terrorists.

You are right that there is no equivalent of hamidm among Hindu chowkies. This is first and foremost because gifted individuals like hamidm are rare in the population at large, let alone among chowk Indians. Secondly, hamidm has many worthy opponents, including yourself, who are vehemently opposed to his view of Islam and so there is a repeated discussion and debate. Among hindu chowkies, there are few who would support caste system and those who do probably want to stay in the closet. The only exception I can think of is Harimou and his rants also seem to be largely reserved not for dalits (or achoots as you people call them) but for reservations for the other backward castes in Tamil Nadu whom he derisively calls Masanmuthu. And some of us even sympathise his views to some extent. I am a firm supporter of affirmative action to remedy historical injustices still embedded in the system. But I also would accept that quotas are a blunt instrument and can result in anomalies, such as the daughter of a poor Brahmin widow with 98% marks in an entrance examination for a medical college being rejected in favour of the son of an IAS officer with 60% marks. To put it in a Pakistani context, it would be like the daughter of poor Bihari Mohajir with 98% marks being rejected in favour of the son of the Sindhi Benazir Bhutto. One has to live with such anomalies during a period of transition.

#793 Posted by ana

[arjun,

Dude, can you please go beyond what Mohammad did with Aisha? None of them live in this century to know what the consequences of such actions are, and unfortunately no one cared then. I think you are a little more intelligent and have a little more at your fingertips than rehashing something that happened centuries ago. Unless you want to be like those who prefer going back to the 7th century for their own bloody, selfish reasons.

Keh diya na? . . . ]


I think the world would much rather not look at or talk about gory, sordid things, like for example mo's life.

But if mo's followers wish to keep bringing up issues involving the instruction manual that mo is supposed to have obtained from a winged creature in a cave, and keep thumping the instruction manual and have endless arguments over it, and continue to make the world an unsafe place for decent human beings, then I guess one HAS to try and convince them that a pedophile, mass murderer, serial rapist and looter was probably lying about the winged creature, and therefore the manual is just a cheap cut and paste job from the Old and New Testaments.

arjun: Giving you your daily dose of lithium makes me an Islamofascist I guess. This is what I get for free medical treatment!! :-(

#793 Posted by ana on July 16, 2007 3:57:43 pm


Dude, can you please go beyond what Mohammad did with Aisha?


this isn't about mo or aisha...this is about the islamofascists who think they have an allah given right to not be offended and make threats against people whose posts they find offensive..

btw: how're you doing?