Preventing More Lal Masjids

Swarrier

Et tu, swarrier? LOL

I am sorry about not noticing that reply earlier! Yes, this format sucks! :(
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We have no way of knowing who disagrees with what unless that disagreement is well articulated. There is too much noise in the system. Hence, the only opinions that publicly matter are the ones that are voiced on time, clearly, forcefully, and if needed, repeatedly.

If Hindu fundamentalists are the only ones who make a racket about an important theory/idea/interpretation of history, then I guess, you agreeing with it does make you, in the eyes of others at least, a Hindu fundamentalist (welcome to the fold :)).

See, this, IMHO, is important. What you REALLY are, and what you REALLY believe is of no conern to others, unless it becomes a factor in shaping the nature of public discourse itself.





By that criteria,

Having spent a few more minutes on this "new" chowk, must confess: this new format is just painful!

Hoping we will all get used to it pretty soon. Too many nice folks here for the place to be abandoned :(

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Back to the forum:

So Philo bhai, have my secular Hindu friends reverted/converted all/many Muslims on Chowk to the bandwagaon of "reform Islam now!" or "reform in Islam is just around the corner," or "sooner or later Muslims will reform Islam and Islam too will become just like any other religion," and "Islam must meet these of my speical criteria, and not preach this or that?"

It would be great fun knowing how many Muslims - other than the usual suspects such as hamidm, raw_dust, iron_mask enthusiastically agreed with my ever-persistent secular Hindu friends, and jumped up to be counted among those Muslims who wish to change Islam itself.

Or has the nature of the dialogue below once again convinced at least some Muslims (let's forget Hindus. One Nihari is enough to delude their friendly minds forever) that Hindus and Muslims, as groups, are so incompatibly different that they cannot talk intelligently to each other about important subjects (other than the nihari, which, I gather, is very delicious)?

:)

Echo writes "It is against human nature to be silent when opposed for some meaner ends in minds , let alone attacked. I am sure you & I pick big fight for far lesser evils for muslims, like e.g Vietnam or Germany. "

Who is asking you to be silent. My beef is with people claiming that Islam says "kill the apostates (those who have left Islam after believing)". That is an outrage against Islam, that is not what the Quran or Islam states.
Of course if anyone, apostate or not, is coming to harm you, you have a duty to stop that injustice but as the Quran says "transgress not, for Allah does not love transgressors". The guy writes a book and what do the transgressors do, they want to chop his head off, that is transgression. If he wrote, you write, he is using ideas to harm you, you use ideas to counter that. In this context the call of "kill the apostates" is nonsense.

masadi:743
["Echo mian, why do you want to argue with Allah when he has allowed people of whatever label complete freedom to accept or reject the truth (i.e. Quran) and their judgment will be based on that choice?"]

and am I quibbling about it?

The whole issue is about those who try to bring harm to the muslim COMMUNITY. Defense of life & property is a right of every human..not simply muslims.

and the defence of even a non-muslim, innocent and following the laws while living in a muslim community has very recourse to get the criminal muslim get capital punishment.

Crime & sin are two completely different aspects of the Islamic laws.

You have evry right to discuss these matters in a country where such laws , no matter how imperfectly, are still applied. Write to them. You won't end up anywhere discussing this here. I, for one, am just a dabbler..I am not at par with your intellectualism.

#742 Posted by Philosopher
((so that is the only BS you have noticed here? Man...this new format is just a load of crap....new formate sucks big time))

Actually no, I just thought that this would be a good place to start venting my spleen. As it stands the great Kaal has not noticed my reply to his interact because he's charging forth on his quest.))

So next criticism, this threading business (replying to interacts is very bad). People just go to the head of the queue and leave the threads behind. I have noticed that the threading concept is okay when people are interested only in their bit , but where's the fun if we cannot see everybody else's disagreements.

Echo mian, why do you want to argue with Allah when he has allowed people of whatever label complete freedom to accept or reject the truth (i.e. Quran) and their judgment will be based on that choice?

Also understand what these Mullahs like Zeemax and the rest mean when they say that an apostate (he or she who rejects Islam after accepting it) should be killed. That is an invention against the Quran. Allah offers people the choice to believe or disbelieve and if the punishment of apostasy was outright execution why would Allah mention people believing and disbelieving again and again (4:137) i.e. more than one time.

Look man, the punishment for apostasy will be given on the last day by Allah, by hastening that punishment you want to interfere with the justice of Allah who allows everyone a natural lifetime to see how they choose and how they behave...

Zeemax's "Islam" is slogannering for the Jihadist group, it does not involve free will thought process in understanding the word of God and the truth. That kind of Islam, is the true colonization of the mind, where your mind is enslaved to received wisdom that represents the powers that be of whatever group that canonized that wisdom, the Quran is against such blind following of tradition, it is all for reason to establish the truth...

#740 Posted by swarrier


(((How come the interact number right now shows 696 and the number of interacts are numbered at 739?)))

so that is the only BS you have noticed here? Man...this new format is just a load of crap....new formate sucks big time

Return us our beloved chowk.

masadi:737

Read again please. This is what I wrote:
["This is meant for non-muslims who should not & must not be asked to relinquish their belief system. As long as a MUSLIM or a non-muslim does not,
by words or deeds, try to be seditious or an apostate, and thus bring harm to muslims he is free to discuss even the most taboo subject within the right fora..as was done throughout the muslim world before we became the pariah dogs...precisely by NOT FOLLOWING these injunctions and preferred to be appeasers & apologists."]

Would not a "muslim" who decides NOT to remain a believer ( not just in heart..of which no one would know) but in WORDS & DEEDS and works against the muslim community deserve some sanction?

If Ayan Hrisi Ali or Salman Rushdie leave the fold & announce it too , it is fine & dandy..it has been never ever beemn a problem through out our cherished past { even when Muttwakkil declared himself to be a "god" in Egypt & wanted to be worshipped by decree..but as long as he was PROTECTING the muslim subjects there was no issue at all.

It is against human nature to be silent when opposed for some meaner ends in minds , let alone attacked. I am sure you & I pick big fight for far lesser evils for muslims, like e.g Vietnam or Germany.

How come the interact number right now shows 696 and the number of interacts are numbered at 739?

Philo bhai

Thanks!

This new format looks terrible! It does attempt to better utilize the real estate here, but at considerable cost to aesthetics. Perhaps the shock of novelty is a factor as well :(

Hope everything has been great at your end. (thumbs up icon)

Zeemax writes "which fact was more than evident to everyone here when you were soundly defeated over 7:181, of which very existence you were not aware"

Actually I was not defeated except according to your sloganeering and now you are lying about it. You were adding ideas and made up contexts to the word of God, something that is no different than idolatory as you associate with Allah's words other words for which you have no proof. In fact your knowledge of the Quran, thrown out here n there for ulterior (violence) motive is quite rudimentary. I've read more Quran, indexed more words and root based context in it than you and your fellows can muster....guaranteed

Echo mian, 18:29 does not differentiate between "Muslim" and non Muslim, there is no exception given in the "let him who will believe and let him who will disbelieve"- that is the whole purpose of life for truth to be accepted free-will and not due to coersion or by household, in fact the context of the verse makes it clear that it is talking about both groups, believers and non believers.

Philosopher, I take Islam directly from the Quran, those that canonized extra Quranic material and developed an ideology out of it for ulterior motive, I reject. The Quran does not give an all encompassing, bureaucratized set of rules and procedures, it merely points you to the universal reality and how you should balance your life based upon that reality. Its purpose is to help you along the way as you fulfill the purpose of your creation, "to see which one of you is best in deed", something that requires freedom of choice and ingenuinty, and does not require narrow proceducre and all encompassing rules- those rules are extra quranic inventions. Inventing things and attributing them to God as those that clergified Islam did is akin to apostasy.

Zeemax writes

Actually I was not defeated except according to your sloganeering. You were adding ideas and made up contexts to the word of God, something that is no different than idolatory as you associate with Allah's words other words for which you have no proof. In fact your knowledge of the Quran, thrown out here n there for ulterior (violence) motive is quite rudimentary. I've read more Quran, indexed more words and root based context in it than you and your fellows can muster....guaranteed

Echo mian, 18:29 does not differentiate between "Muslim" and non Muslim, there is no exception given in the "let him who will believe and let him who will disbelieve"- that is the whole purpose of life for truth to be accepted free-will and not due to coersion or by household, in fact the context of the verse makes it clear that it is talking about both groups, believers and non believers.

Philosopher, I take Islam directly from the Quran, those that canonized extra Quranic material and developed an ideology out of it for ulterior motive, I reject. The Quran does not give an all encompassing, bureaucratized set of rules and procedures, it merely points you to the universal reality and how you should balance your life based upon that reality. Its purpose is to help you along the way as you fulfill the purpose of your creation, "to see which one of you is best in deed", something that requires freedom of choice and ingenuinty, and does not require narrow proceducre and all encompassing rules- those rules are extra quranic inventions. Inventing things and attributing them to God as those that clergified Islam did is akin to apostasy.

Re: # 733
so kaal
If I were to disagree with the assertion that Buddhist monks were killed en masse by Hindus, and follow Vinay Lal's monograph/questions instead , would that make me a right wing hindu fundamentalist? -))

PS. This new format is terrible, the "O" in chowk at the top seems to leer maniacally as one types. Better watch your p's and q's.

#733 Posted by KaalChakra

kaal sahib...wellcome back...we missed you.

sir...where have you been man???we all here are protesting against this new format...we want the original chowk back...please record your protest...if you agree with us...

it looks like a chat forum.

#732 Posted by philosopher
karishan baby

[karishna son of stampede crowd...]

Instead of worrying about who my father is, first figure out who amongst the four of your mothers is your actual mother. : )


[...what paki muslim guys here can discuss/think would be unimaginable for even a billion zoo full of hindu gods. ]

Yes. Paki intellect has become famous in the world. Pakiland has become world famous for its IT (International Terrorism).

Here's a learning opportunity for you. Did you know about the origin ghazals - the pride of Islamic culture?

Read it up. :)

krishna

"Islamist old fart"

Those are unkind words. Haideri has no reason to reject the argument made and history as taught by Hindu secularists themselves.

Hindu secularists have been teaching that Hindus mass killed Buddhists, which is why Buddhism practically disappeared from India.

If a Muslim merely agrees with Hindu secularists, he or she does not become an old Islamist fart.

To my knowledge, no Hindu secularist on Chowk has seriously questioned this assertion.