Preventing More Lal Masjids

#682 by haideri

[Re: # 681

How common are the marriages between a Brahmin and Dalit? The Cyber Napoleons are out there to help/correct others when their own backyard is on fire.

haideri ]

It is good that you are trying to engage in a logical discussion.

You are bound to fail, of course, but I respect the honest attempt.

Okay, here we go....


There are LOTS of Brahmins marrying Dalits. When MY parents were looking for someone for me to marry, and they advertised in the newspaper, they advertised ``Caste no bar`` as do millions of Brahmins. However, because of differences in cultural and educational levels, finding good matches is much more difficult between Brahmins and Dalits.

Also, the main point is, in the OVERWHELMING majority of areas in India (barring maybe SOME parts of Bihar, UP etc.), nobody even notices nowadays.

In Pakistan, in a Muslim converts to Hinduism for marrying someone, he/she would be killed.

GET THE DIFFERENCE?

Are YOU a ``Cyber Napoleon``, maybe?

Re: # 681

Youth killed for marrying Brahmin girl
Tribune News Service

Rohtak, October 7
Sanjay, a dalit youth, was stabbed to death allegedly by his father-in-law and five others in the Ekta Colony here last night.

He had married a Brahmin girl three years ago but his wife’s family had not reconciled to the inter-caste marriage. Late last night he was caught by his father-in-law Raj Kumar and his accomplices and stabbed repeatedly. He succumbed to his injuries sometime later. Two of the deceased’s friends were also hurt. The police has arrested Raj Kumar while five others — Amit, Parveen and Monu and two unidentified persons are absconding.



Man, brother held for dowry death
Our Correspondent

Rewari, October 7
The police here has arrested Bhim Singh (husband) and Bir Singh (brother-in-law) both sons of Duli Chand Gujjar in connection with the dowry death of Ratti (26) whose body was found hanging from ceiling in suspicious circumstances in a room at their house in Mohalla Rajiv Nagar, here on September 28.

It is alleged that Ratti daughter of Mata Din Gujjar of Alwar district of Rajasthan, who married Bhim Singh five years ago, was subjected to torture for dowry following which she ended her life.

On a complaint of Mata Din, the police registered a case of dowry death under Sections 498-A, 304-B of the IPC against Bhim Singh, Bir Singh and father-in-law Duli Chand, mother-in-law Bimla Devi and others.

Re: # 681

How common are the marriages between a Brahmin and Dalit? The Cyber Napoleons are out there to help/correct others when their own backyard is on fire.

haideri

#671 by tahmed32

Let me point out some of the obfuscations:


[1. Religious conversions: I think we are in agreement then that in traditional hindu and muslim societies, cross-religion marriages were frowned upon.]


``Frowned upon`` is not exactly the same as ``killing``.

Why don`t you give me examples of Muslims converting to Hinduism and walking around with their heads intact in Pakistan, and I`ll give you MANY examples of Hindus converting to Islam in India and still being VERY popular in the society ().

Oh, and by the way, you can adjust the numbers for the Hindu:Muslim population ratio for both countries. (See, I think of everything. :) )


[Regarding you question for hindu boy marrying a muslim girl in Pakistan - while I dont know any hindu boy (let alone hindu boy marrying a muslim girl) in Pakistan for the obvious reason that we have virtually no hindus except in rural south of Pakistan, I do know of a such a couple in the US. Your question implies that you think that if there was such a couple in Pakistan they would be killed - so now it is my turn to ask if you can provide me of a single such case. I certainly never heard of any.]

Again, obfuscation. In America it is possible. Because the society is not Islamic, and beheadings are not permitted. And this is precisely the point.

Also, and I have posted this before, I personally live within 5 miles of one such couple - the girl is Hindu Punjabi, the boy is Muslim from Pakistan. The girl was forced to convert (due to pressure from her in-laws) against her wishes (she is a friend of my wife), and she is treated with suspicion and resentment by her in-laws that she is not a true Muslim. She has to prove her Muslimness by following a very strict religious life - going to mosque 50 times a day and whatnot.


[btw, this is not just a hindu-muslim thing: this transtion is true for all human societies.]


No. It is not. Stop trying to obfuscate. NO OTHER SOCIETY KILLS FOR APOSTASY. GET IT? NO OTHER SOCIETY!!



[2. Caste system: You provide an example of hindus condemning the caste system (which you too rightly condemn), and ask if I can provide an example of an prominent muslim condemning islamist terrorism. Surely you jest, sir. :-) What does hamidm (a prominent chowkie muslim) do all day on chowk except condemn islamist terrorism? How many hindus on chowk are so dedicated to condemning the caste system? answer: zero. What was lal masjid about? Pakistani soldiers laid down their lives trying to fight terrorists and save innocent lives at the same time - and there is ample evidence of Pakistanis supporting musharraf on this even if they are opposed to his contined rule. ]


No. Obfuscation again. THERE IS NOBODY IN PAKISTAN WALKING AROUND CONDEMNING THE ILLS IN ISLAM. Because they will not live very long. In India, you can condemn Hinduism all day long, AND NOBODY would BE CHOPPING YOUR HEAD OFF FOR IT.

GET IT? GET THE DIFFERENCE?



[Long post, and hope it makes some sense. ]


See the above.


Oh, and another thing. Blaming all ills of Islam on social backwardness is too convenient. Because ALL of the ILLS were SPECIFICALLY PRESCRIBED AND PRACTICED by the good man mohammed (allah`s messenger who communicated with a winged creature in a cave).

Some additional thoughts on this topic!

People look for reform where the need appears to be the greatest at a given moment. Once upon a time, when the Pope ruled the world – there was a need for reform in the Christian Church and it did come about. Guess which religion is making most news world-wide NOW.

Most problems of the world that refuse to go away do so because those who suffer from the same are unable to see the same – they blame the onlookers instead! This interactor admits that he has not heard a lot about reformers in Egypt and other places. What I HAVE heard about are the laws against apostasy and I am very impressed with the self-restraint of the “intellectuals” on that issue.

Why do (did) some women participate in that lal masjid outrage? The reasons are the same as that for the men – they were brain-washed by people who were older than them, who were supposed to be their protectors and their well-wishers so these ladies trusted the same. In reality, they were failed by the same.

Changing a bit of paper called the “constitution” does not get rid of the mindset which created the country in the first place! There is nothing wrong with an “instruction manual” providing guidance on how to wash one’s elbows – the problem comes when it starts REQUIRING one to always wash those elbows in the same way and the rest of the world to do the same at the risk of otherwise having those elbows amputated! Then indeed there may be made a case for reform.

And saying that Pakistan is being “used” by the USA is a bit hypocritical – it is little different from saying that a prostitute gets “used” by a customer – when the reality is that such ladies take part in such “use” very willingly so are no less to blame! Johns will come and go – but the act remains the same, and the only constant participant is the “used”. Sure, one can rail all one wants at the “injustice” of the circumstances – but in truth that lady-Pakistan has been a bit less than virtuous!

The USA is not into colonizing third countries – at least not for the past hundred years or so. Were that the case, Philippines would be a part of the USA (perhaps willingly) and so would Mexico (again, perhaps quite willingly). US involvement in Vietnam – like US involvement in Iraq – was based on nobler objectives. The one in Vietnam failed due to lack of public will – a bane of all democracies. The one in Iraq may go the same way – but the reasons for starting the war do not change.

It is incorrect to compare what isolated preachers in the American South do with what the mainstream Pakistani religious establishment has been practicing in that country since its inception – with full state sanction and perhaps a nod and a wink (at least until recently) from its “intellectuals”! In fact, if there is one element which has emboldened and strengthened the fringe groups of the US Christian Right, it has been the acts and utterances of the Jihadis worldwide – and to a lesser extent, the inability or unwillingness of the “intellectuals” to call that out.

#676:

``I personally know of two men who became lapsed Muslims``

...Should have said personally known - one of them was a close friend who has now left Ottawa and the other is the father of my daughter`s best friend.

Calling FV a lifafa journalist is silly...you don`t have to pay her...she writes he jihadi apologia gratis...

Farzana Versey #666
{``I am not partial to Pathans, but I do like some of them. And not the list you mentioned. ``}

Farzana,
Did you know that they assigned you #666? Just a coincidence, I hope. :)

OK, how about this revised list of Pattons - please note that they are all ``top nauch`` :

Gen. George Patton
Field Marshal A Lube Can
Gen. Yak Yak Can
Gen. Tick A Can
Gen. Buwaseer Lulla Khan BuRbuR
Pres. Ham Id Qarzi
Pres-to-be I`m Moron Can


{``I don’t care much for mixed-breeds ...``}

How about partial Rajputs? :(

{``My khaala lived in Karachi until a few years ago before she had this desperate desire for Dunkin Donuts and since she felt Lahore was too far, she moved to the US, which is a dunked donut.``}

Wise woman - your khaala. Somehow the hallucinatory doughnuts in Lahore make people see Singapore when they should be seeing Cawnpore.

{``No trickery needed, just jugglery will do… ``}

You are right. Marriage does affect the jugular.

{``What will “another article” do that a few sighs escaping my lips occasionally don’t?! ``}

Farzana,
Who made our goddess sigh? Don`t let the audience in the cheap seats affect your morale. From that distance, all artists look the same to them and their judgment suffers from attenuation and attrition. Now, go write that article - please. :)

bulleya#665:

``......i am talking about the general public........the remaining 499,998..........if one of them became a christian, do you really think anything would happen to him/her in canada``

No, not if he/she did quietly and it did not become a public issue. I never implied otherwise. However, it was much easier to do so 30-40 years ago when the Muslim community was very small and not very assertive. I personally know of two men who became lapsed Muslims, at most and raised their children as Catholics. The reason of their conversion is the same as the reason for conversion to Islam of non-blacks now - namely marriage - to Catholic Christians who, in those days, were as keen as Muslims are now on ensuring that their flock married their own or at least agreed to raise their children in their own faith.

``.......i am sure an odd few have changed religions or become athiests........now, if they came on tv, daily, formed an organization, started publicising it, sooner or later one odd person out of the 499.998 may threaten them.....``

For some strange reason, Muslims -despite what the quran says about kufr - have no problem with atheists - even the Pakistani Muslims with Islamist viewpoint quote and sing praises of the likes of Faiz and Ghalib and would even try to prove that they were indeed believing Muslims. As I have said many times, for Muslims, only Mohammad is sacred for all practical purposes, Allah can be insulted with impunity.

``but in day to day life, i think any canadian muslim could change his/her religion, without much fear and interference``

I agree as long as he keeps it a private affair - e.g., does not say that he is leaving Islam because he considers that Mohammad was faking his message, for example, thousands of Hindus leave their religion publicly in Parks in India claiming that they consider caste system is evil and thousands of Jews and Christians here openly leave their religion questioning their fundamentals- AND is willing to accept familial and communal boycott, including the end of his marriage.

``in any case, if you are convinced that muslims overwhelmingly remain muslims, because they fear attacks, if they switch religions, then be my guest........``

Once again, I do not believe so and never said said so. The overwhelming majority of Muslims, like the overwhelming majority of people of any religion, die in the religion in which they were born, regardless of whether they like their religon or not (most of them do because they become comfortable with the religion in which they grew up by the time they are able to make any independent judgment).

``do study islam as a philosophy (if not as a religion)........it is quite interesting and extremely flexible and fluid and dynamic philosophically.......... ``

To the extent that everything about Islam is embedded in the Quran, I have studied it. And it may be my own lack of comprehension skill but I found it full of inconsistent and incomprehensible surahs, but with a simple repetitive message to be afraid of Allah, hate kafirs, pagans and Mushiriks and the wrath of Allah on those who did not follow the Prophet in his wars. And yes, I did read the ayah that says ``no compusion in religion``.

Re: # 671 Tahmed

Dost:

As expected, Tahmed disingenuously deflected and parried from your principal assertions. For example,

“…I think we are in agreement then that in traditional hindu and muslim societies, cross-religion marriages were frowned upon…btw, this is not just a hindu-muslim thing: this transtion is true for all human societies…”

That was not your point at all. Your principal point was that resistance to a Muslim girl marrying Hindu boy is so severe that there are no cases that one can recollect. Tahmed conveniently ducked the issue.

``“…Your question implies that you think that if there was such a couple in Pakistan they would be killed - so now it is my turn to ask if you can provide me of a single such case….”

As Masanmuthu has already noted, this is a `brilliant` response. Your whole point was to use that as an example to point out that this never happens. Instead, of admitting the obvious, Tahmed turns the question back to you? How foolish can one get?

“…I used to have a jewish roommate whose sister wanted to marry a roman catholic boy - and he would have terrible (and expensive) telephone fights with his mother over the phone, since she absolutely rejected the match on account of religion. And of course the sister ended up marrying anyway….”

And the point is...? Answer: no point at all. Is the `Jewish sister` still alive? Is she still accepted by her family? Would the same be true if she was Muslim? Tahmed is silent on all this.

“…How many hindus on chowk are so dedicated to condemning the caste system? answer: zero…”

Several, including Dost Mittar and self. Besides, in a democratic system, what counts is action through the law and not empty rhetoric on Chowk. Where it matters, either through Constitution-sanctioned reservations, elections, etc. the intent and approach to the caste system is clear. Dost-Mittar`s point was about how many Muslims in positions of authority have condemned Jihad. Specifically, his question that remains unanswered is, `Now, could you please tell me which prominent Muslim has condemned the concepts of violent jihad, blasphemy or dar-ul-harb as jahilya of seventh century, which ought to be buried in the contemporary world?` Hamidm is not one such person, and neither am I or Dost Mittar. Asking us to condemn caste system, jihad, blasphemy or dar-ul-harb is not the same as asking prominent people to do the same. In the case of the caste system, the record in India of 60 years of nearly oppressive affirmative action is in sharp contrast to the condemnation of jihad, blasphemy or dar-ul-harb.

“…What was lal masjid about?...”
It was about the Chinese response to the kidnapping of Chinese parlor girls. Until then, Musharraf ignored the Shamim case, the burning of books/CDs, the kidnapping of government officials, etc. So, you are deluding yourself if you think that it was inspired to preserve the rule of law and all the other nonsense that Musharraf mouths.

#670 by zeemax:

[The only thing that disappointed me in bulleya`s post was his attempt at discrediting you by reducing you to the level of a `lafafa` journalist, plus insinuating the insult that it is all that women journalists are good for, in response to your invitation to get in touch while visiting.]

No one and nothing can reduce me. Their attempts, though, reduce them considerably...isiliye itna chhatpatatey hai...aur rang badalte hai...if bulleya has tried to insult me, then I have not `received` that insult and therefore it remains with him! However, I don`t think he would imagine I would be a ``lafafa`` journalist. He hasn`t offered to pay, though if he has made such an error in thinking then he will have to pay for it in other ways...arre, not even the most important people, and that includes my friends in the BJP, have tried such stunts with me...I am happy to let you know that a RSS ideologue has called me ``an honourable enemy``.

But someone else has offered to pay...``Farzana, I am ready to pay for your expenses to travel to visit this school again, meet with the teachers, students, their parents, lawyer and if possible the judge. Have the judge order these guys pay for the land at the fair price, and set up the trust to run this school and build more such schools.``

Giving me instructions sitting in Silicon Valley...and offering to pay me... heck, how would it sound if I came on a public forum and talked about wanting to make a donation to that institution? But some people thrive on such public displays...I have seen it elsewhere too...

Re. liberals...my post 144 talks of ``vocational liberalism``. You know, collect funds for Hillary Clinton types...

PS: You don`t have to label yourself as anything...I do not agree with your views on several subjects, esp. atheism and cheese, but it is easier to deal with. At least one knows the POV won`t change like a chameleon...this applies to the hardliners among Indians too.

Anyway, am done with this board...

The islamofascists` favorite MP is about to get suspended....

Galloway to be suspended from Commons over Iraq

GEORGE GALLOWAY, the MP who campaigned against the Iraq war, is to be suspended from parliament over his links to the United Nations oil-for-food programme in Iraq.

The parliamentary standards watchdog will rule this week that Galloway failed properly to declare his links to a charitable appeal partially funded from money made by selling Iraqi oil under Saddam Hussein, according to a source close to the inquiry. The one-month suspension for Galloway, often referred to as “Gorgeous George”, is one of the most severe given to an MP.

Galloway, who was expelled from Labour, is now an MP for the Respect party. He may also be asked to apologise to the Commons for his behaviour but will launch a robust defence of his conduct. He denies any wrongdoing.

Your question implies that you think that if there was such a couple in Pakistan they would be killed - so now it is my turn to ask if you can provide me of a single such case.


Wow, what a brilliant reply.. :-)

dost mittar #657 Let me start with seconding haideri in appreciation of your presence and excellent contributions on chowk. While we differ on certain issues, it is a pleasure to discuss these matters, and if this results in both of us seeing things in a broader light that is good and if not - there is always another day, another board on chowk. Thanks also for your response to Krishna which is basically accurate. Coming to your post, there are two issues...

1. Religious conversions: I think we are in agreement then that in traditional hindu and muslim societies, cross-religion marriages were frowned upon. And that with structural changes in society (urbanization, greater mixing of populations, greater education), this is changing. Regarding you question for hindu boy marrying a muslim girl in Pakistan - while I dont know any hindu boy (let alone hindu boy marrying a muslim girl) in Pakistan for the obvious reason that we have virtually no hindus except in rural south of Pakistan, I do know of a such a couple in the US. Your question implies that you think that if there was such a couple in Pakistan they would be killed - so now it is my turn to ask if you can provide me of a single such case. I certainly never heard of any. The bottom line is: Urban, educated types in Pakistan - as in India I am sure - are not prisoners of these traditional barriers. Among this group, girls typically choose their own husbands and we all know ``ishq na puchhay zaat (or deen, in this case)``. :-)

btw, this is not just a hindu-muslim thing: this transtion is true for all human societies. I used to have a jewish roommate whose sister wanted to marry a roman catholic boy - and he would have terrible (and expensive) telephone fights with his mother over the phone, since she absolutely rejected the match on account of religion. And of course the sister ended up marrying anyway.

2. Caste system: You provide an example of hindus condemning the caste system (which you too rightly condemn), and ask if I can provide an example of an prominent muslim condemning islamist terrorism. Surely you jest, sir. :-) What does hamidm (a prominent chowkie muslim) do all day on chowk except condemn islamist terrorism? How many hindus on chowk are so dedicated to condemning the caste system? answer: zero. What was lal masjid about? Pakistani soldiers laid down their lives trying to fight terrorists and save innocent lives at the same time - and there is ample evidence of Pakistanis supporting musharraf on this even if they are opposed to his contined rule.

Just to be fair, let me add that the caste system is also a relic of traditional societies, and there is no shortage of Pakistanis who swear by their ``zaat`` as well. And Syeds are the de facto brahmins for many Pakistanis. But it doesnt not carry the same weight of religious tradition among muslims at is does among hindus, so that is why it is less of an issue. And that is why (as I started saying) you find much more mass conversions among hindus (as happened recently in the example of the dalits I pointed out) than among muslims for whom there is no practical need to part with their muslim identity.

Long post, and hope it makes some sense.

#666 by FarzanaVersey,

The only thing that disappointed me in bulleya`s post was his attempt at discrediting you by reducing you to the level of a `lafafa` journalist, plus insinuating the insult that it is all that women journalists are good for, in response to your invitation to get in touch while visiting.

And this gentleman is supposed to be a `liberal`. I have no idea of what `liberal` means anymore. It is quite likely that I`m the most `liberal` of them all.

All these `liberal` intellectual wannabes are just punks and hypocrites.

#657 by dost-mittar on July 14, 2007 4:25pm PT


HAHAHA....you really let the hypocritical self-righteous prophet tahmed(peace be unto his self-righteous butt) have it...

now watch as he threatens to ignore you again..and again..and again..and again...and then continues to reply to you with a footnote saying he`s going to ignore you...