Preventing More Lal Masjids
Pervez Hoodbhoy July 10, 2007
#924 Posted by echoboom on July 18, 2007 9:34:06 pm
Re: # 923Snake:
(what a nic)
You have given a common sense reason & shed some beautiful light on this matter.
thaNKS.
chowk NESTING IS NO GOOD. Please go back to ten I/a p page & bring back sidebar.
(what a nic)
You have given a common sense reason & shed some beautiful light on this matter.
thaNKS.
chowk NESTING IS NO GOOD. Please go back to ten I/a p page & bring back sidebar.
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#923 Posted by snake on July 18, 2007 9:19:44 pm
Re: # 921
the muslims who say the punishment for apostasy is death, cite hadiths to back them up - some say the hadiths have as much weight as the qur'an.
personally, i would think that in an important matter like death penalty, the qur'an would've addressed it.
the muslims who say the punishment for apostasy is death, cite hadiths to back them up - some say the hadiths have as much weight as the qur'an.
personally, i would think that in an important matter like death penalty, the qur'an would've addressed it.
#922 Posted by arjun2 on July 18, 2007 8:30:14 pm
zeemax: don't get too uppity or mushy will have you gazi'ed or do this to you..
Pakistani Wife Embodies Cause of ‘Disappeared’
By JANE PERLEZ
ISLAMABAD, Pakistan — Sitting in the sparsely furnished office of her missing husband, Amina Masood Janjua counted the calls on a recent day from Pakistanis who have suffered a fate similar to hers. More and more are coming forward, she says, to report that their husbands, brothers or sons have disappeared under the rule of Pakistan’s president, Gen. Pervez Musharraf.
“It used to be two cases every week,” she said. “Today, there were three. The numbers are incredible. I get cases when I’m driving. I have three diaries full of names.”
She and Pakistani human rights groups say that those who are missing have disappeared into the hands of Pakistan’s military and intelligence services since 2001. The total could be more than 400, they say.
While American intelligence officials say that General Musharraf has not done enough to crack down on militants in the country, human rights groups here assert that Pakistan’s security services have been sweeping up civilians and holding them incommunicado without charges since 9/11, when the government forged an alliance with the United States to fight terrorists.
They say the Bush administration has pushed the government to arrest people who are overtly religious or show an interest in radical Islamic thought. Most of the men who are reported missing wore full beards, a sign of religiosity.
The movement to free the missing men gathered momentum in October when Pakistan’s chief justice, Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry, decided to take up the cases. His boldness may have contributed to the decision by General Musharraf to suspend him on March 9.
But Mr. Chaudhry’s determination to challenge that decision by appealing to the Supreme Court and holding a series of rallies over the last few months has weakened the president and left other Pakistanis less fearful of standing up to the government. He has become the focus of a growing popular movement to restore civilian rule even as General Musharraf also comes under increasing pressure from radical Islamists.
That popular outpouring has given momentum to Defense of Human Rights, a group founded by Mrs. Janjua, and the nongovernmental Human Rights Commission of Pakistan, who are trying to locate and free the missing men.
Every two weeks in crowded sessions of the Supreme Court here, judges listen to the pleadings of women demanding to know the whereabouts of their husbands and sons and brothers, who they believe are locked up in government jails and safe houses.
Security officers, dressed in pressed khakis and black berets, are regularly dragged before the bench and asked to explain where the men — known here as the “disappeared” — are being held.
Pakistani Wife Embodies Cause of ‘Disappeared’
By JANE PERLEZ
ISLAMABAD, Pakistan — Sitting in the sparsely furnished office of her missing husband, Amina Masood Janjua counted the calls on a recent day from Pakistanis who have suffered a fate similar to hers. More and more are coming forward, she says, to report that their husbands, brothers or sons have disappeared under the rule of Pakistan’s president, Gen. Pervez Musharraf.
“It used to be two cases every week,” she said. “Today, there were three. The numbers are incredible. I get cases when I’m driving. I have three diaries full of names.”
She and Pakistani human rights groups say that those who are missing have disappeared into the hands of Pakistan’s military and intelligence services since 2001. The total could be more than 400, they say.
While American intelligence officials say that General Musharraf has not done enough to crack down on militants in the country, human rights groups here assert that Pakistan’s security services have been sweeping up civilians and holding them incommunicado without charges since 9/11, when the government forged an alliance with the United States to fight terrorists.
They say the Bush administration has pushed the government to arrest people who are overtly religious or show an interest in radical Islamic thought. Most of the men who are reported missing wore full beards, a sign of religiosity.
The movement to free the missing men gathered momentum in October when Pakistan’s chief justice, Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry, decided to take up the cases. His boldness may have contributed to the decision by General Musharraf to suspend him on March 9.
But Mr. Chaudhry’s determination to challenge that decision by appealing to the Supreme Court and holding a series of rallies over the last few months has weakened the president and left other Pakistanis less fearful of standing up to the government. He has become the focus of a growing popular movement to restore civilian rule even as General Musharraf also comes under increasing pressure from radical Islamists.
That popular outpouring has given momentum to Defense of Human Rights, a group founded by Mrs. Janjua, and the nongovernmental Human Rights Commission of Pakistan, who are trying to locate and free the missing men.
Every two weeks in crowded sessions of the Supreme Court here, judges listen to the pleadings of women demanding to know the whereabouts of their husbands and sons and brothers, who they believe are locked up in government jails and safe houses.
Security officers, dressed in pressed khakis and black berets, are regularly dragged before the bench and asked to explain where the men — known here as the “disappeared” — are being held.
#921 Posted by echoboom on July 18, 2007 4:52:59 pm
Heeeeeer'es Mullah Echoboom!
Essential Reading for all those participating here: reading or interacting.
Only then write/inter-act.
____________________________________________________________
Apostates: Should they be killed or saved?
The sections of this article are:
1- Who are the Apostates in Islam?
2- The absolute freedom of religion in Islam.
3- So how come Muslim Fundamentalists execute those who desert Islam then?
4- My rebuttal about the historical Muslims' battles with the Apostates.
5- Does Islam really mean to force someone to Islam or else kill him?
6- Conclusion.
Note: Some of the notes in this article were taken from the commentary of the Noble Quran translation of Abdullah Yusuf Ali; may Allah Almighty rest his soul. Ameen.
1- Who are the Apostates in Islam?
Apostates or Renegades are those who decide to leave the religion of Islam. There is a widely prevailing misconception about this issue. It is generally thought that the Holy Quran (The Muslims Holy Scripture) provides the death sentence for those who desert the religion of Islam. There is not the least ground for such a supposition. The Holy Quran speaks repeatedly of people going back to unbelief after believing, but never once does it say that they should be killed or punished. Although the Holy Quran does provide the death sentence for some situations such as putting a murderer to death, but it never provided death sentence or ordered the death of those who leave Islam.
Let us look at Noble Verse 2:217 "They ask thee (Mohammed) Concerning fighting In the Prohibited Month. Say: Fighting therein Is a grave (offence); but graver is it In the sight of Allah to prevent access to the path of Allah, to deny Him, to prevent access to the sacred Mosque, and drive out its members. Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you turn back from their faith (Islam) and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the hereafter; they will be companions of the fire and will abide therein." Here in this Holy Verse we see that Allah Almighty talks about those who leave Islam, and promises them punishment in the day of judgment. Allah Almighty doesn't order the death of those people.
Let also look at Noble Verse 5:54 "O ye who believe! If any from among you turn back from his faith, soon will Allah produce a people whom He (Allah) will love as they will love Him lowly with the believers, Mighty against the rejecters, fighting in the way of Allah, and never afraid of the reproachers of such as find fault. That is the Grace of Allah which He will bestow on whom He (Allah) pleaseth. And Allah encompasseth all, and He knoweth all things." Here in this Holy Verse we see again Allah Almighty strengthening the faith of the Muslims in Islam by assuring them that whenever they see Muslims leaving Islam they will also see those who join Islam with strong faith and love to Allah Almighty.
"As most men are rebellious." (5:49), it is inevitable that there should be apostates even from such a religion of reason and common-sense as Islam. In Verse 5:54 above there is a warning to the Muslims that they should not repeat the history of the Jews, and become so self-satisfied or arrogant as to depart from the spirit of Allah's teaching. If they do, the loss will be their own. Allah's bounty is not confined to one group or section of humanity. He can always raise up people who will follow the true spirit of Islam. That spirit is defined in two ways:
1- They will love Allah Almighty and Allah Almighty will love them.
2- Amongst the Brethren, their attitude will be that of humility, but to wrongdoers they will offer no compromises, and they will always strive and fight for the truth and right. They will know no fear, either physical, or that more insidious form. They are too great in mind to be haunted by any such thought.
Let us look at Noble Verse 5:55 "(O Muslims) Your (real) friends are (No less than) Allah, His Messenger, and the (Fellowship Of) Believers, those who establish regular prayers and regular charity, and they bow down humbly (in worship)." Here we see Allah Almighty telling Muslims after he warned them from apostates in (5:54) that their real friends are: Allah Almighty, Prophet Mohammed peace be upon him, and the good Muslims who keep up with their prayers and charity, and who humbly worship their God.
Let us look at Noble Verse 3:90 "But those who reject faith after they accepted it, and then go on adding to their defiance of faith never will their repentance be accepted; for they are those who have (of set purpose) gone astray." Here in this holy verse we see Allah Almighty rejecting the faith of those who keep coming back and forth to Islam. In order for a human being to accept Islam as his religion, he must be certain about it first. Allah Almighty's path is wide open, and his mercy is greater than this universe. This Holy Verse also does not order the death of those who leave Islam.
The path to Allah Almighty is always open and Allah Almighty will be your friend as in verse (5:55) above, and he will forgive your sins for you once you repent as in the following verse: "Except for those that repent (Even) after that, And make amends; for Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful." (3:89).
2- The absolute freedom of religion in Islam:
Some group of Muslims believe in killing apostates because they follow a Hadith (Saying) from Prophet Mohammed peace be upon him regarding the apostates. While Islam was weak and still growing among Jews, Christians and Pagans, Muslims did not have the full and complete religion that they needed. Some Jews and Christians wanted to take advantage of such situation to destroy Islam. They had a plan to adopt Islam first and then desert it, thus creating the impression that Islam was not a religion worth adopting.
Let us look at Noble Verse 3:72 "A section of the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) say: Believe in the morning what is revealed to the believers (Muslims), but reject it at the end of the day; perchance they may (themselves) turn back (from Islam)." To protect Islam from such Satanic attempts done by a group of the people of the book (Jews and Christians), Prophet Mohammed peace be upon him ordered the death of those who enter Islam and leave it. This temporary law that was put by our Prophet had stopped the hypocrites from the People of the Book who carried so much hatred toward Islam to enter Islam and desert it afterwards.
Allah Almighty ordered the Muslims to kill the pagans who fought against the Muslims. The following Noble Verse talks about all of the enemies who fought the Muslims long and bloody battles:
Let us look at Noble Verse 2:191 "And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith." The killing of the pagans who fought the Muslims during the time when Islam was not yet complete was essential.
Important Note: Noble Verse 2:191 above is not dedicated to the apostates as some Muslims use it to prove that the Noble Quran orders the killing of apostates. In fact, it doesn't even mention the apostates. It talks in general about slaying the pagans who declare wars on the Muslims. The pagans would obviously include the apostates who deserted Islam, but the Noble Verse certainly doesn't DIRECTLY order the killing of anyone who deserts Islam.
Allah Almighty promised that He will protect the Noble Quran from any corruption:
"We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly Guard it (from corruption). (The Noble Quran, 15:9)"
"Nay, this is a Glorious Quran, (inscribed) in a Tablet Preserved! (The Noble Quran, 85:21-22)"
Let us look at Noble Verse 5:3 ".....This day those who reject faith given up all hope of your religion: Yet fear them not But fear Me (Allah). This day have I (Allah) perfected your religion for you, completed my favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your (complete) religion....". So long as Islam was not organized, with its own community and its own laws, the unbelievers and the Hypocrites from the People of the Book and the Pagan Arabs had hoped to wean the believers from the new teaching. Now that hope is gone forever with the complete organization of Islam.
Let us look at Noble Verses 15:2-3 "Again and again will those who disbelieve, wish that they had bowed (to God's will) in Islam. Leave them alone, to enjoy (the good things of this life) and to please themselves: let (false) hope amuse them: soon will knowledge (undeceive them)."
Let us look at Noble Verses 10:99-100 "If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed, all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe! No soul can believe, except by the will of God, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand."
Let us look at Noble Verse 18:29 "Say, 'The truth is from your Lord': Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it): for the wrong doers We have prepared a Fire whose (smoke and flames), like the walls and roof of a tent, will hem them in: if they implore relief they will be granted water like melted brass, that will scald their faces, how dreadful the drink! How uncomfortable a couch to recline on!"
Let us look at Noble Verse 27:92 "And to rehearse the Qur'an: and if any accept guidance, they do it for the good of their own souls, and if any stray, say: 'I am only a Warner.'"
Let us look at Noble Verse 10:99 "If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe!" Allah Almighty doesn't like us to compel people into belief.
"No soul can believe, except by the will of God, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand. (The Noble Quran, 10:100)" Allah Almighty helps those whom He likes to be guided to His Straight Path. If anyone doesn't believe, or reverts back from Islam, it is then his loss and it is the Will of Allah Almighty.
"Say: 'Behold all that is in the heavens and on earth'; but neither Signs nor Warners profit those who believe not. Do they then expect (any thing) but (what happened in) the days of the men who passed away before them? Say: 'Wait ye then: for I, too, will wait with you.' (The Noble Quran, 10:101-102)" Notice how Allah Almighty orders us to say "Wait" to those who reject Islam. This clearly says that we can't force anyone into Islam, or punish anyone for leaving Islam.
Let us look at Noble Verse 10:108 "Say: 'O ye men! Now Truth hath reached you from your Lord! those who receive guidance, do so for the good of their own souls; those who stray, do so to their own loss: and I am not (set) over you to arrange your affairs.'" Whoever believes benefits his soul and whoever doesn't, harms it, and Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him is not in charge of people to arrange their affairs. Only Allah Almighty is.
"Say: 'Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger: but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message). (The Noble Quran, 24:54)" Prophet Muhammad's duty was only to preach.
"Those who pervert the Truth in Our Signs are not hidden from Us. Which is better? he that is cast into the Fire, or he that comes safe through, on the Day of Judgement? Do what ye will: Verily He seeth (clearly) all that ye do. (The Noble Quran, 41:40)" Here we clearly see Allah Almighty giving a freedom of choice for people to choose or refuse Islam.
"And those who take as protectors others besides Him - Allah doth watch over them; and thou art not the disposer of their affairs. (The Noble Quran, 42:6)" Again, Allah Almighty here told Prophet Muhammad that he has no authority over those who reject Islam.
"It is true thou wilt not be able to guide every one whom thou lovest; but Allah Guides those whom He will and He Knows those who receive guidance. (The Noble Quran, 28:56)" Again, no authority to Prophet Muhammad over those who accept or reject Islam.
Let us look at Noble Verse 2:256 "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things." The Holy Quran prohibits Muslims to force any person into Islam. Muslims must not let people resent Islam and Muslims. They must leave people decide for themselves because the "Truth stands out clear from error" (2:256).
Compulsion is incompatible with religion: Because (1) religion depends upon faith and will, and these would be meaningless by force; (2) Truth and Error have been so clearly shown up by the mercy of Allah Almighty that there should be no doubt in the minds of any persons of good will as to the fundamentals of faith; (3) Allah Almighty's protection is continuous, and His Plan is always to lead us from the depths of darkness into the clearest light.
The following was sent to me from "Vipor Poison"; may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him:
"I found another verse in the Quran that dealt with apostates. Noble Verse 4:137 "Those who believe, then reject faith, then believe (again) and (again) reject faith, and go on increasing in unbelief,- Allah will not forgive them nor guide them nor guide them on the way."
Notice that the Quran says those who reject faith and then BELIEVE and again DISBELIEVE. if a Muslim rejects faith and is then killed for doing so how will he live to again BELIEVE and then DISBELIEVE. The atmosphere of this verse is that of free will and freedom of choice to everyone. If Allah wanted he would have said something about the punishment, if there was any, of those who reject Islam after accepting it. but Allah takes this to be clearly a private matter between them and Allah.
I found many verses in the Quran that teach us NO PUNISHMENT for an apostate BUT I found no verse that says the contrary.
Here is another verse about the freedom of expression in the Quran. many translators translate this wrongly and kill the meaning of the word making it a bogus and strange statement. Noble Verse 39:18 "Those who listen to the word, then follow the best of it; those are they whom Allah has guided, and those it is who are the men of understanding."
The Quran tells the Muslims to listen to every thing and follow only the best of what is said. it does not tell them to kill people if they say something that is not according to the cultural norm."
The following two sets of Noble Verses were sent to me by brother Rached Blili; may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him.
Let us look at Noble Verses 109:1-6 "Say : O ye that reject Faith! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. To you be your Way, and to me mine."
Let us look at Noble Verse 42:15 "Now then, for that (reason), call (them to the Faith), and stand steadfast as thou art commanded, nor follow thou their vain desires; but say: 'I believe in the Book which God has sent down; and I am commanded to judge justly between you. God is our Lord and your Lord: for us (is the responsibility for) our deeds, and for you for your deeds. There is no contention between us and you. God will bring us together, and to Him is (our) Final Goal.'"
The Noble Quran in all of the above Noble Verses is crystal clear about providing freedom of religion and choice to all people, Muslims and non-Muslims.
3- So how come Muslim Fundamentalists execute those who desert Islam then?
The interpretation of those who prohibit women from education, even though Islam clearly allows education for women, and prohibit them also from driving, and oppress men by forcing them to grow beards, even though beards are NOT mandatory in Islam, doesn't mean much to me.
As we've seen above, it is quite clear, and beyond any questioning that Allah Almighty prohibited compulsion in religion and allowed the absolute freedom of religion to everyone. When Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him executed apostates, he did it because Muslims were at war time and because Islam was still partial, and Muslims needed protection from the hypocrites of the Jews and Christians who purposely entered Islam and deserted it later to create confusion among the Muslims as shown below in the Noble Verse.
The Sayings of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, regarding killing the renegades came when Islam was partial and the Muslims were dealing with wars all the time. So if the person wasn't with the Muslims, then he was certainly with his people, the pagans and the other non-Muslims, and he would've then had to join the evil forces to fight the Muslims. So the case back then was different than today.
I have no sympathy for those hypocrites of the Jews and Christians who got executed:
"A section of the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) say: Believe in the morning what is revealed to the believers (Muslims), but reject it at the end of the day; perchance they may (themselves) turn back (from Islam). (The Noble Quran, 3:72)"
Please read "The absolute freedom of religion in Islam" section above for more details and explanations.
Please visit Islam prohibits forming alliance with Jews and Christians and non-Muslims.
Why do some Muslims call Americans and Westerners "Great Satan"?
What is the Wisdom of Islam?
4- My rebuttal about the historical Muslims' battles with the Apostates:
According to the Islamic history, when Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him died, some of the Muslims had deserted Islam for several reasons. The biggest of those reasons was that they opposed paying the Zakah (2.5% of annual income of Islamic taxes for the poor). Keep in mind that Allah Almighty constantly Warning the Prophet and the Muslims from the hypocrites (false believers). The Arabs before Islam were used to exploiting each others. The strong ate the poor, and high interest rates were enforced on loans given to the poor to ultimately force them to sell of their cattle, sons, daughters and/or wives as slaves.
After the death of our Prophet, some of the rich hypocrites decided to join with the Pagan Arab tribes to fight the Muslims and end Islam. The leader of the apostates/renegades was Musylama Al-Kath-thab or Musylama the liar in English, started his army of infidels in what we call today the country of Oman, which is more than 1,000 miles away from Mecca and Medina where the Muslims resided.
After Musylama became strong and popular and was able to gather a big amount of pagans and hypocrites to form an army, he led them to march to Mecca and Medina to fight the Muslims. When his army finally reached the mountains near Mecca, the Muslims had fought them several battles until he ultimately was killed and his army was soundly defeated.
The objection that I have with some Muslims is for the following reasons:
1- It was the renegades or apostates that declared the war on the Muslims. The Muslims did not start the war.
2- We can't use the story of Musylama Al-Kath-thab to prove that it is ok today to kill any person who deserts Islam. Musylama was not a peaceful renegade. He wanted to destroy the Muslims through war. He had to be fought and killed. We can't use him as a standard and kill all renegades, especially those in the West for instance, who might embrace Islam and then desert it later due to the overwhelming anti-Islamic media and lies.
3- As I proved in this article, Allah Almighty in the Noble Quran talked about the apostates several times, and not a single command exists in the Noble Quran that orders the killing of any of them.
4- The Sayings of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, regarding killing the renegades came when Islam was partial and the Muslims were dealing with wars all the time. As I said above, if the person wasn't with the Muslims, then he was certainly with his people, the pagans and the other non-Muslims, and he would've then had to join the evil forces to fight the Muslims. So the case back then was different than today.
5- Today, if a week-hearted and easily persuaded person for instance decides to embrace Islam and then gets easily persuaded to leave Islam, and then gets easily persuaded to embrace Islam again, and then gets easily persuaded to leave it and so on, then how is it right for us to apply the things that were applied to the hypocrites and Musylama Al-Kath-thab during and after our Prophet's time to this innocent individual?
6- We must never forget Allah Almighty's Command that honors the freedom of religion and choice in Islam in Noble Verse 2:256 and the others as shown in this article.
7- Some Muslims claim that the Caliphs did not apply Noble Verse 2:256 and others to the renegades, because the Caliphs knew that these Noble Verses are not applicable to them. My response to this is that we:
1. Don't know if the Caliphs had any choice to apply them back in the hostile environment that they existed in back then.
2. The Caliphs are not the measuring stick that the Muslims today have to follow, especially after knowing that the Caliphs themselves did things different from each others several times before on very major Islamic issues: [1] [2].
5- Does Islam really mean to force someone to Islam or else kill him?
Please visit Does Islam really mean to force someone to Islam or else kill him?
6- Conclusion:
As we clearly see from the Noble Verses above, apostates are no longer to be killed in Islam. I am not here promoting apostates, but there is no reason to kill someone who doesn't deserve to be killed. Certainly if the apostate is hostile toward the Muslims and joins the enemy in a war against them, or tries to corrupt the Muslims in the Muslim lands by trying to convert them to his/her new deviant religion, then the matter becomes different. But if a Westerner today for instance embraces Islam for a while and then changes his position due to the overwhelming false anti-Islamic media, then certainly killing that person would be a grave sin and a big mistake.
Please visit: Apostates in the Bible- Instant death to those who desert their religion in both the Old Testament and the New Testament.
The law of apostasy in Christianity.
Allah, Islam, Quran, Muhammad questions and answers.
What is the place of Jews, Christians and non-Muslims in Islam.
Human rights and equality in Islam V.S. Christianity.
Ask me any question.
Essential Reading for all those participating here: reading or interacting.
Only then write/inter-act.
____________________________________________________________
Apostates: Should they be killed or saved?
The sections of this article are:
1- Who are the Apostates in Islam?
2- The absolute freedom of religion in Islam.
3- So how come Muslim Fundamentalists execute those who desert Islam then?
4- My rebuttal about the historical Muslims' battles with the Apostates.
5- Does Islam really mean to force someone to Islam or else kill him?
6- Conclusion.
Note: Some of the notes in this article were taken from the commentary of the Noble Quran translation of Abdullah Yusuf Ali; may Allah Almighty rest his soul. Ameen.
1- Who are the Apostates in Islam?
Apostates or Renegades are those who decide to leave the religion of Islam. There is a widely prevailing misconception about this issue. It is generally thought that the Holy Quran (The Muslims Holy Scripture) provides the death sentence for those who desert the religion of Islam. There is not the least ground for such a supposition. The Holy Quran speaks repeatedly of people going back to unbelief after believing, but never once does it say that they should be killed or punished. Although the Holy Quran does provide the death sentence for some situations such as putting a murderer to death, but it never provided death sentence or ordered the death of those who leave Islam.
Let us look at Noble Verse 2:217 "They ask thee (Mohammed) Concerning fighting In the Prohibited Month. Say: Fighting therein Is a grave (offence); but graver is it In the sight of Allah to prevent access to the path of Allah, to deny Him, to prevent access to the sacred Mosque, and drive out its members. Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you turn back from their faith (Islam) and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the hereafter; they will be companions of the fire and will abide therein." Here in this Holy Verse we see that Allah Almighty talks about those who leave Islam, and promises them punishment in the day of judgment. Allah Almighty doesn't order the death of those people.
Let also look at Noble Verse 5:54 "O ye who believe! If any from among you turn back from his faith, soon will Allah produce a people whom He (Allah) will love as they will love Him lowly with the believers, Mighty against the rejecters, fighting in the way of Allah, and never afraid of the reproachers of such as find fault. That is the Grace of Allah which He will bestow on whom He (Allah) pleaseth. And Allah encompasseth all, and He knoweth all things." Here in this Holy Verse we see again Allah Almighty strengthening the faith of the Muslims in Islam by assuring them that whenever they see Muslims leaving Islam they will also see those who join Islam with strong faith and love to Allah Almighty.
"As most men are rebellious." (5:49), it is inevitable that there should be apostates even from such a religion of reason and common-sense as Islam. In Verse 5:54 above there is a warning to the Muslims that they should not repeat the history of the Jews, and become so self-satisfied or arrogant as to depart from the spirit of Allah's teaching. If they do, the loss will be their own. Allah's bounty is not confined to one group or section of humanity. He can always raise up people who will follow the true spirit of Islam. That spirit is defined in two ways:
1- They will love Allah Almighty and Allah Almighty will love them.
2- Amongst the Brethren, their attitude will be that of humility, but to wrongdoers they will offer no compromises, and they will always strive and fight for the truth and right. They will know no fear, either physical, or that more insidious form. They are too great in mind to be haunted by any such thought.
Let us look at Noble Verse 5:55 "(O Muslims) Your (real) friends are (No less than) Allah, His Messenger, and the (Fellowship Of) Believers, those who establish regular prayers and regular charity, and they bow down humbly (in worship)." Here we see Allah Almighty telling Muslims after he warned them from apostates in (5:54) that their real friends are: Allah Almighty, Prophet Mohammed peace be upon him, and the good Muslims who keep up with their prayers and charity, and who humbly worship their God.
Let us look at Noble Verse 3:90 "But those who reject faith after they accepted it, and then go on adding to their defiance of faith never will their repentance be accepted; for they are those who have (of set purpose) gone astray." Here in this holy verse we see Allah Almighty rejecting the faith of those who keep coming back and forth to Islam. In order for a human being to accept Islam as his religion, he must be certain about it first. Allah Almighty's path is wide open, and his mercy is greater than this universe. This Holy Verse also does not order the death of those who leave Islam.
The path to Allah Almighty is always open and Allah Almighty will be your friend as in verse (5:55) above, and he will forgive your sins for you once you repent as in the following verse: "Except for those that repent (Even) after that, And make amends; for Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful." (3:89).
2- The absolute freedom of religion in Islam:
Some group of Muslims believe in killing apostates because they follow a Hadith (Saying) from Prophet Mohammed peace be upon him regarding the apostates. While Islam was weak and still growing among Jews, Christians and Pagans, Muslims did not have the full and complete religion that they needed. Some Jews and Christians wanted to take advantage of such situation to destroy Islam. They had a plan to adopt Islam first and then desert it, thus creating the impression that Islam was not a religion worth adopting.
Let us look at Noble Verse 3:72 "A section of the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) say: Believe in the morning what is revealed to the believers (Muslims), but reject it at the end of the day; perchance they may (themselves) turn back (from Islam)." To protect Islam from such Satanic attempts done by a group of the people of the book (Jews and Christians), Prophet Mohammed peace be upon him ordered the death of those who enter Islam and leave it. This temporary law that was put by our Prophet had stopped the hypocrites from the People of the Book who carried so much hatred toward Islam to enter Islam and desert it afterwards.
Allah Almighty ordered the Muslims to kill the pagans who fought against the Muslims. The following Noble Verse talks about all of the enemies who fought the Muslims long and bloody battles:
Let us look at Noble Verse 2:191 "And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith." The killing of the pagans who fought the Muslims during the time when Islam was not yet complete was essential.
Important Note: Noble Verse 2:191 above is not dedicated to the apostates as some Muslims use it to prove that the Noble Quran orders the killing of apostates. In fact, it doesn't even mention the apostates. It talks in general about slaying the pagans who declare wars on the Muslims. The pagans would obviously include the apostates who deserted Islam, but the Noble Verse certainly doesn't DIRECTLY order the killing of anyone who deserts Islam.
Allah Almighty promised that He will protect the Noble Quran from any corruption:
"We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly Guard it (from corruption). (The Noble Quran, 15:9)"
"Nay, this is a Glorious Quran, (inscribed) in a Tablet Preserved! (The Noble Quran, 85:21-22)"
Let us look at Noble Verse 5:3 ".....This day those who reject faith given up all hope of your religion: Yet fear them not But fear Me (Allah). This day have I (Allah) perfected your religion for you, completed my favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your (complete) religion....". So long as Islam was not organized, with its own community and its own laws, the unbelievers and the Hypocrites from the People of the Book and the Pagan Arabs had hoped to wean the believers from the new teaching. Now that hope is gone forever with the complete organization of Islam.
Let us look at Noble Verses 15:2-3 "Again and again will those who disbelieve, wish that they had bowed (to God's will) in Islam. Leave them alone, to enjoy (the good things of this life) and to please themselves: let (false) hope amuse them: soon will knowledge (undeceive them)."
Let us look at Noble Verses 10:99-100 "If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed, all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe! No soul can believe, except by the will of God, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand."
Let us look at Noble Verse 18:29 "Say, 'The truth is from your Lord': Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it): for the wrong doers We have prepared a Fire whose (smoke and flames), like the walls and roof of a tent, will hem them in: if they implore relief they will be granted water like melted brass, that will scald their faces, how dreadful the drink! How uncomfortable a couch to recline on!"
Let us look at Noble Verse 27:92 "And to rehearse the Qur'an: and if any accept guidance, they do it for the good of their own souls, and if any stray, say: 'I am only a Warner.'"
Let us look at Noble Verse 10:99 "If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe!" Allah Almighty doesn't like us to compel people into belief.
"No soul can believe, except by the will of God, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand. (The Noble Quran, 10:100)" Allah Almighty helps those whom He likes to be guided to His Straight Path. If anyone doesn't believe, or reverts back from Islam, it is then his loss and it is the Will of Allah Almighty.
"Say: 'Behold all that is in the heavens and on earth'; but neither Signs nor Warners profit those who believe not. Do they then expect (any thing) but (what happened in) the days of the men who passed away before them? Say: 'Wait ye then: for I, too, will wait with you.' (The Noble Quran, 10:101-102)" Notice how Allah Almighty orders us to say "Wait" to those who reject Islam. This clearly says that we can't force anyone into Islam, or punish anyone for leaving Islam.
Let us look at Noble Verse 10:108 "Say: 'O ye men! Now Truth hath reached you from your Lord! those who receive guidance, do so for the good of their own souls; those who stray, do so to their own loss: and I am not (set) over you to arrange your affairs.'" Whoever believes benefits his soul and whoever doesn't, harms it, and Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him is not in charge of people to arrange their affairs. Only Allah Almighty is.
"Say: 'Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger: but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message). (The Noble Quran, 24:54)" Prophet Muhammad's duty was only to preach.
"Those who pervert the Truth in Our Signs are not hidden from Us. Which is better? he that is cast into the Fire, or he that comes safe through, on the Day of Judgement? Do what ye will: Verily He seeth (clearly) all that ye do. (The Noble Quran, 41:40)" Here we clearly see Allah Almighty giving a freedom of choice for people to choose or refuse Islam.
"And those who take as protectors others besides Him - Allah doth watch over them; and thou art not the disposer of their affairs. (The Noble Quran, 42:6)" Again, Allah Almighty here told Prophet Muhammad that he has no authority over those who reject Islam.
"It is true thou wilt not be able to guide every one whom thou lovest; but Allah Guides those whom He will and He Knows those who receive guidance. (The Noble Quran, 28:56)" Again, no authority to Prophet Muhammad over those who accept or reject Islam.
Let us look at Noble Verse 2:256 "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things." The Holy Quran prohibits Muslims to force any person into Islam. Muslims must not let people resent Islam and Muslims. They must leave people decide for themselves because the "Truth stands out clear from error" (2:256).
Compulsion is incompatible with religion: Because (1) religion depends upon faith and will, and these would be meaningless by force; (2) Truth and Error have been so clearly shown up by the mercy of Allah Almighty that there should be no doubt in the minds of any persons of good will as to the fundamentals of faith; (3) Allah Almighty's protection is continuous, and His Plan is always to lead us from the depths of darkness into the clearest light.
The following was sent to me from "Vipor Poison"; may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him:
"I found another verse in the Quran that dealt with apostates. Noble Verse 4:137 "Those who believe, then reject faith, then believe (again) and (again) reject faith, and go on increasing in unbelief,- Allah will not forgive them nor guide them nor guide them on the way."
Notice that the Quran says those who reject faith and then BELIEVE and again DISBELIEVE. if a Muslim rejects faith and is then killed for doing so how will he live to again BELIEVE and then DISBELIEVE. The atmosphere of this verse is that of free will and freedom of choice to everyone. If Allah wanted he would have said something about the punishment, if there was any, of those who reject Islam after accepting it. but Allah takes this to be clearly a private matter between them and Allah.
I found many verses in the Quran that teach us NO PUNISHMENT for an apostate BUT I found no verse that says the contrary.
Here is another verse about the freedom of expression in the Quran. many translators translate this wrongly and kill the meaning of the word making it a bogus and strange statement. Noble Verse 39:18 "Those who listen to the word, then follow the best of it; those are they whom Allah has guided, and those it is who are the men of understanding."
The Quran tells the Muslims to listen to every thing and follow only the best of what is said. it does not tell them to kill people if they say something that is not according to the cultural norm."
The following two sets of Noble Verses were sent to me by brother Rached Blili; may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him.
Let us look at Noble Verses 109:1-6 "Say : O ye that reject Faith! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. To you be your Way, and to me mine."
Let us look at Noble Verse 42:15 "Now then, for that (reason), call (them to the Faith), and stand steadfast as thou art commanded, nor follow thou their vain desires; but say: 'I believe in the Book which God has sent down; and I am commanded to judge justly between you. God is our Lord and your Lord: for us (is the responsibility for) our deeds, and for you for your deeds. There is no contention between us and you. God will bring us together, and to Him is (our) Final Goal.'"
The Noble Quran in all of the above Noble Verses is crystal clear about providing freedom of religion and choice to all people, Muslims and non-Muslims.
3- So how come Muslim Fundamentalists execute those who desert Islam then?
The interpretation of those who prohibit women from education, even though Islam clearly allows education for women, and prohibit them also from driving, and oppress men by forcing them to grow beards, even though beards are NOT mandatory in Islam, doesn't mean much to me.
As we've seen above, it is quite clear, and beyond any questioning that Allah Almighty prohibited compulsion in religion and allowed the absolute freedom of religion to everyone. When Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him executed apostates, he did it because Muslims were at war time and because Islam was still partial, and Muslims needed protection from the hypocrites of the Jews and Christians who purposely entered Islam and deserted it later to create confusion among the Muslims as shown below in the Noble Verse.
The Sayings of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, regarding killing the renegades came when Islam was partial and the Muslims were dealing with wars all the time. So if the person wasn't with the Muslims, then he was certainly with his people, the pagans and the other non-Muslims, and he would've then had to join the evil forces to fight the Muslims. So the case back then was different than today.
I have no sympathy for those hypocrites of the Jews and Christians who got executed:
"A section of the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) say: Believe in the morning what is revealed to the believers (Muslims), but reject it at the end of the day; perchance they may (themselves) turn back (from Islam). (The Noble Quran, 3:72)"
Please read "The absolute freedom of religion in Islam" section above for more details and explanations.
Please visit Islam prohibits forming alliance with Jews and Christians and non-Muslims.
Why do some Muslims call Americans and Westerners "Great Satan"?
What is the Wisdom of Islam?
4- My rebuttal about the historical Muslims' battles with the Apostates:
According to the Islamic history, when Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him died, some of the Muslims had deserted Islam for several reasons. The biggest of those reasons was that they opposed paying the Zakah (2.5% of annual income of Islamic taxes for the poor). Keep in mind that Allah Almighty constantly Warning the Prophet and the Muslims from the hypocrites (false believers). The Arabs before Islam were used to exploiting each others. The strong ate the poor, and high interest rates were enforced on loans given to the poor to ultimately force them to sell of their cattle, sons, daughters and/or wives as slaves.
After the death of our Prophet, some of the rich hypocrites decided to join with the Pagan Arab tribes to fight the Muslims and end Islam. The leader of the apostates/renegades was Musylama Al-Kath-thab or Musylama the liar in English, started his army of infidels in what we call today the country of Oman, which is more than 1,000 miles away from Mecca and Medina where the Muslims resided.
After Musylama became strong and popular and was able to gather a big amount of pagans and hypocrites to form an army, he led them to march to Mecca and Medina to fight the Muslims. When his army finally reached the mountains near Mecca, the Muslims had fought them several battles until he ultimately was killed and his army was soundly defeated.
The objection that I have with some Muslims is for the following reasons:
1- It was the renegades or apostates that declared the war on the Muslims. The Muslims did not start the war.
2- We can't use the story of Musylama Al-Kath-thab to prove that it is ok today to kill any person who deserts Islam. Musylama was not a peaceful renegade. He wanted to destroy the Muslims through war. He had to be fought and killed. We can't use him as a standard and kill all renegades, especially those in the West for instance, who might embrace Islam and then desert it later due to the overwhelming anti-Islamic media and lies.
3- As I proved in this article, Allah Almighty in the Noble Quran talked about the apostates several times, and not a single command exists in the Noble Quran that orders the killing of any of them.
4- The Sayings of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, regarding killing the renegades came when Islam was partial and the Muslims were dealing with wars all the time. As I said above, if the person wasn't with the Muslims, then he was certainly with his people, the pagans and the other non-Muslims, and he would've then had to join the evil forces to fight the Muslims. So the case back then was different than today.
5- Today, if a week-hearted and easily persuaded person for instance decides to embrace Islam and then gets easily persuaded to leave Islam, and then gets easily persuaded to embrace Islam again, and then gets easily persuaded to leave it and so on, then how is it right for us to apply the things that were applied to the hypocrites and Musylama Al-Kath-thab during and after our Prophet's time to this innocent individual?
6- We must never forget Allah Almighty's Command that honors the freedom of religion and choice in Islam in Noble Verse 2:256 and the others as shown in this article.
7- Some Muslims claim that the Caliphs did not apply Noble Verse 2:256 and others to the renegades, because the Caliphs knew that these Noble Verses are not applicable to them. My response to this is that we:
1. Don't know if the Caliphs had any choice to apply them back in the hostile environment that they existed in back then.
2. The Caliphs are not the measuring stick that the Muslims today have to follow, especially after knowing that the Caliphs themselves did things different from each others several times before on very major Islamic issues: [1] [2].
5- Does Islam really mean to force someone to Islam or else kill him?
Please visit Does Islam really mean to force someone to Islam or else kill him?
6- Conclusion:
As we clearly see from the Noble Verses above, apostates are no longer to be killed in Islam. I am not here promoting apostates, but there is no reason to kill someone who doesn't deserve to be killed. Certainly if the apostate is hostile toward the Muslims and joins the enemy in a war against them, or tries to corrupt the Muslims in the Muslim lands by trying to convert them to his/her new deviant religion, then the matter becomes different. But if a Westerner today for instance embraces Islam for a while and then changes his position due to the overwhelming false anti-Islamic media, then certainly killing that person would be a grave sin and a big mistake.
Please visit: Apostates in the Bible- Instant death to those who desert their religion in both the Old Testament and the New Testament.
The law of apostasy in Christianity.
Allah, Islam, Quran, Muhammad questions and answers.
What is the place of Jews, Christians and non-Muslims in Islam.
Human rights and equality in Islam V.S. Christianity.
Ask me any question.
#920 Posted by echoboom on July 18, 2007 4:45:17 pm
Raw_Dust:919
You could have been Khaak-i-Shifaa ( healing Dust) but you seem like Khaak-i-beemaari today..are you O.K?
Everything you are frothing about is there..Been there, Done that!
Check out!
www.secularism.org : The organisation of Mal'ooons.
Here's a list where your misery would love company...see you here next year!..........InshaAllah! :) :) :)
Faith Freedom International
Created by secularist ex-Muslims to help Muslims leave Islam.
www.faithfreedom.org/ - 15k - Cached - Similar pages
Apostates of Islam - We left Islam
FEATURED APOSTATES. Manikhan - Maldives - Maldives. Haji - Pakistan - Pakistan. Ben Rukhsana - UK - UK. Tuhan - Malaysia - Malaysia. Jefferson - - Morocco ...
www.apostatesofislam.com/ - 26k - Cached - Similar pages
Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
An introduction to Islam, with links to Wikipedia's considerable collection of articles on the religion, its teachings, history, and practice.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam - 271k - 17 Jul 2007 - Cached - Similar pages
IslamiCity.com - Islam & The Global Muslim eCommunity
A great information site about Islam and Muslims in text,audio and video. Also, a good reference for non-Muslims who are searching about Islam, Muslims, ...
www.islamicity.com/ - 71k - 17 Jul 2007 - Cached - Similar pages
Internet Islamic History Sourcebook
A categorized listing of links to aspects of the history of Islam; also includes translations of source texts, and articles.
www.fordham.edu/halsall/islam/islamsbook.html - Similar pages
Al-Islam.org by the Ahlul Bayt DILP - Home
Online Islam Library & books including Multilingual Quran, A Shi'ite encyclopedia, Shia Sunni books, islamic philosophy, history, spirituality and jihad.
www.al-islam.org/ - 18k - 17 Jul 2007 - Cached - Similar pages
Islam Page - Islam, Muslims, Allah, Muhammad, Salvation, Jesus
- [ Translate this page ]
Learn about the way of Life called Islam. This site contains many links for you to find information on God, Jesus, Bible, the Quran, Muslims, etc.
www.islamworld.net/ - 105k - Cached - Similar pages
Amnesty International - Working To Protect Human Rights Worldwide
Amnesty International (AI) is a worldwide movement of people who campaign for internationally recognized human rights.
www.amnesty.org/ - 30k - 17 Jul 2007 - Cached - Similar pages
Islam Guide: A Brief Illustrated Guide to Understanding Islam ...
This site on Islam is a brief illustrated guide for non-Muslims who'd like to understand Islam, Muslims (Moslems), and the Quran (Koran).
www.islam-guide.com/ - 23k - Cached - Similar pages
The religion of Islam
Peace/conflict. Attaining peace · Religious tolerance · Religious hatred · Religious conflict · Religious violence. "Hot" topics. Very hot topics ...
www.religioustolerance.org/islam.htm - 85k - Cached - Similar pages
You could have been Khaak-i-Shifaa ( healing Dust) but you seem like Khaak-i-beemaari today..are you O.K?
Everything you are frothing about is there..Been there, Done that!
Check out!
www.secularism.org : The organisation of Mal'ooons.
Here's a list where your misery would love company...see you here next year!..........InshaAllah! :) :) :)
Faith Freedom International
Created by secularist ex-Muslims to help Muslims leave Islam.
www.faithfreedom.org/ - 15k - Cached - Similar pages
Apostates of Islam - We left Islam
FEATURED APOSTATES. Manikhan - Maldives - Maldives. Haji - Pakistan - Pakistan. Ben Rukhsana - UK - UK. Tuhan - Malaysia - Malaysia. Jefferson - - Morocco ...
www.apostatesofislam.com/ - 26k - Cached - Similar pages
Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
An introduction to Islam, with links to Wikipedia's considerable collection of articles on the religion, its teachings, history, and practice.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam - 271k - 17 Jul 2007 - Cached - Similar pages
IslamiCity.com - Islam & The Global Muslim eCommunity
A great information site about Islam and Muslims in text,audio and video. Also, a good reference for non-Muslims who are searching about Islam, Muslims, ...
www.islamicity.com/ - 71k - 17 Jul 2007 - Cached - Similar pages
Internet Islamic History Sourcebook
A categorized listing of links to aspects of the history of Islam; also includes translations of source texts, and articles.
www.fordham.edu/halsall/islam/islamsbook.html - Similar pages
Al-Islam.org by the Ahlul Bayt DILP - Home
Online Islam Library & books including Multilingual Quran, A Shi'ite encyclopedia, Shia Sunni books, islamic philosophy, history, spirituality and jihad.
www.al-islam.org/ - 18k - 17 Jul 2007 - Cached - Similar pages
Islam Page - Islam, Muslims, Allah, Muhammad, Salvation, Jesus
- [ Translate this page ]
Learn about the way of Life called Islam. This site contains many links for you to find information on God, Jesus, Bible, the Quran, Muslims, etc.
www.islamworld.net/ - 105k - Cached - Similar pages
Amnesty International - Working To Protect Human Rights Worldwide
Amnesty International (AI) is a worldwide movement of people who campaign for internationally recognized human rights.
www.amnesty.org/ - 30k - 17 Jul 2007 - Cached - Similar pages
Islam Guide: A Brief Illustrated Guide to Understanding Islam ...
This site on Islam is a brief illustrated guide for non-Muslims who'd like to understand Islam, Muslims (Moslems), and the Quran (Koran).
www.islam-guide.com/ - 23k - Cached - Similar pages
The religion of Islam
Peace/conflict. Attaining peace · Religious tolerance · Religious hatred · Religious conflict · Religious violence. "Hot" topics. Very hot topics ...
www.religioustolerance.org/islam.htm - 85k - Cached - Similar pages
#919 Posted by Raw_Dust on July 18, 2007 3:59:15 pm
RE: 891:
I will shamelessly repeat it again that there are very good reasons for the "Cause" to silence the dissenters/doubters with a proper hit-job. Islam as it exists today will NOT survive once the Taboos on:
1 - Mohammad's personal life
2 - Origins of Quran
3 - Research on the authorship of Quran
are broken. Imagine, the lit. critics, linguistic theorists, feminists and sundry others taking on Mohammad's sexuality, Quran's incoherence and coming up with theories to put the entire Islamic shabang in earthly (unholy) contexts. The cloak of Holyness around Mohammad and Islam along with a
tangible threat to life to the dissenters are essential tools in maintaining the very bases of dogma.
The Cause of the Now-Islam is actually best served by keeping this threat intact.
I will shamelessly repeat it again that there are very good reasons for the "Cause" to silence the dissenters/doubters with a proper hit-job. Islam as it exists today will NOT survive once the Taboos on:
1 - Mohammad's personal life
2 - Origins of Quran
3 - Research on the authorship of Quran
are broken. Imagine, the lit. critics, linguistic theorists, feminists and sundry others taking on Mohammad's sexuality, Quran's incoherence and coming up with theories to put the entire Islamic shabang in earthly (unholy) contexts. The cloak of Holyness around Mohammad and Islam along with a
tangible threat to life to the dissenters are essential tools in maintaining the very bases of dogma.
The Cause of the Now-Islam is actually best served by keeping this threat intact.
#918 Posted by GT on July 18, 2007 3:46:35 pm
#916 Posted by arjun2:
Arjun:
"As part of that effort, Washington plans to spend $750 million on education, health and economic projects in the tribal areas over the next five years and is hoping to find an additional $300 million to $350 million in the coming year to help revamp Pakistan's beleagured 85,000-member Frontier Corps that patrols the border."
Did I hear something similar in the context of Iraq?
Arjun:
"As part of that effort, Washington plans to spend $750 million on education, health and economic projects in the tribal areas over the next five years and is hoping to find an additional $300 million to $350 million in the coming year to help revamp Pakistan's beleagured 85,000-member Frontier Corps that patrols the border."
Did I hear something similar in the context of Iraq?
#917 Posted by GT on July 18, 2007 3:42:44 pm
#913 Posted by zeemax
"Yes. I haven't slept more than a disturbed few hours since 3rd July."
Do not worry .... Lal Masjid will keep India and Pakistan awake for quite some time ... and that, perhaps, is how it should be.
"Yes. I haven't slept more than a disturbed few hours since 3rd July."
Do not worry .... Lal Masjid will keep India and Pakistan awake for quite some time ... and that, perhaps, is how it should be.
#916 Posted by arjun2 on July 18, 2007 3:18:45 pm
#913 Posted by zeemax on July 18, 2007 1:37:40 pm
Yes. I haven't slept more than a disturbed few hours since 3rd July.
you should have slept while you had the chance. you want to be well rested when you take delivery of your 72 virgins..
U.S.: Pakistan Will Attack Militants
Tuesday, July 17, 2007
By MATTHEW LEE, Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON — The United States expects Pakistan to launch more military strikes on Islamic militants along its border with Afghanistan even as the Bush administration pumps hundreds of millions of dollars in development aid into lawless tribal regions to fight extremism.
Senior U.S. officials said Tuesday that the administration will back the military efforts of Pakistani President Gen. Pervez Musharraf to quell a resurgence of al-Qaida and Taliban activity in frontier provinces. But the U.S. will continue aid to the provinces' impoverished residents, the officials said.
"The Pakistani government is dealing decisively with the problems that have been brewing for some time," said Richard Boucher, the assistant secretary of state for south and central Asian affairs, who is expected to travel to Islamabad in early August.
He cited recent developments along the Afghan border, particularly in largely ungoverned Waziristan where Washington says al-Qaida has regrouped, as well as the military siege on extremists holed up in Islamabad's Red Mosque.
"Now having dealt with the mosque, it's pretty much crossing a line and there's no going back," Boucher said. "I think it shows that the government of Pakistan is prepared to move, to act, against a dangerous militancy that has come to infect various areas and parts of Pakistani society."
As part of that effort, Washington plans to spend $750 million on education, health and economic projects in the tribal areas over the next five years and is hoping to find an additional $300 million to $350 million in the coming year to help revamp Pakistan's beleagured 85,000-member Frontier Corps that patrols the border.
While a civilian "hearts and minds campaign" may offer the best long-term solution to combating extremists in the region, "some elements have to be dealt with militarily," Boucher said.
"We have to remember that some military action is necessary, and will probably have to be taken, that there are elements in these areas that are extremely violent and are out to kill government people, out to kill government leaders, and will not settle for a peaceful way forward," he said.
Boucher's comments came at a news briefing timed to coincide with the release of findings from a new U.S. National Intelligence Estimate that expressed concern about al-Qaida's resurgence in Pakistan's northwest, which Musharraf's government had allowed to be policed by tribal chiefs.
At the White House, President Bush's homeland security advisor, Fran Townsend, also praised Musharraf's efforts but said the agreement with tribal leaders had been a failure.
His strategy "hasn't worked for Pakistan. It hasn't worked for the United States," she said, stressing, though, that the administration continues to back Musharraf.
"I think it's fair to say President Musharraf is committed to the fact that he will not permit (the tribal areas) to be a safe haven and we will work with him to ensure that that safe haven is denied to them," Townsend said.
Yes. I haven't slept more than a disturbed few hours since 3rd July.
you should have slept while you had the chance. you want to be well rested when you take delivery of your 72 virgins..
U.S.: Pakistan Will Attack Militants
Tuesday, July 17, 2007
By MATTHEW LEE, Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON — The United States expects Pakistan to launch more military strikes on Islamic militants along its border with Afghanistan even as the Bush administration pumps hundreds of millions of dollars in development aid into lawless tribal regions to fight extremism.
Senior U.S. officials said Tuesday that the administration will back the military efforts of Pakistani President Gen. Pervez Musharraf to quell a resurgence of al-Qaida and Taliban activity in frontier provinces. But the U.S. will continue aid to the provinces' impoverished residents, the officials said.
"The Pakistani government is dealing decisively with the problems that have been brewing for some time," said Richard Boucher, the assistant secretary of state for south and central Asian affairs, who is expected to travel to Islamabad in early August.
He cited recent developments along the Afghan border, particularly in largely ungoverned Waziristan where Washington says al-Qaida has regrouped, as well as the military siege on extremists holed up in Islamabad's Red Mosque.
"Now having dealt with the mosque, it's pretty much crossing a line and there's no going back," Boucher said. "I think it shows that the government of Pakistan is prepared to move, to act, against a dangerous militancy that has come to infect various areas and parts of Pakistani society."
As part of that effort, Washington plans to spend $750 million on education, health and economic projects in the tribal areas over the next five years and is hoping to find an additional $300 million to $350 million in the coming year to help revamp Pakistan's beleagured 85,000-member Frontier Corps that patrols the border.
While a civilian "hearts and minds campaign" may offer the best long-term solution to combating extremists in the region, "some elements have to be dealt with militarily," Boucher said.
"We have to remember that some military action is necessary, and will probably have to be taken, that there are elements in these areas that are extremely violent and are out to kill government people, out to kill government leaders, and will not settle for a peaceful way forward," he said.
Boucher's comments came at a news briefing timed to coincide with the release of findings from a new U.S. National Intelligence Estimate that expressed concern about al-Qaida's resurgence in Pakistan's northwest, which Musharraf's government had allowed to be policed by tribal chiefs.
At the White House, President Bush's homeland security advisor, Fran Townsend, also praised Musharraf's efforts but said the agreement with tribal leaders had been a failure.
His strategy "hasn't worked for Pakistan. It hasn't worked for the United States," she said, stressing, though, that the administration continues to back Musharraf.
"I think it's fair to say President Musharraf is committed to the fact that he will not permit (the tribal areas) to be a safe haven and we will work with him to ensure that that safe haven is denied to them," Townsend said.
#915 Posted by Dash_Dot on July 18, 2007 2:39:07 pm
anyone expieriencing trouble with this articles interacts. It has taken me 2.5 mins for this page to load up, and my line/link is a pretty good one with a reasonable bandwidth.
#914 Posted by zeemax on July 18, 2007 1:42:33 pm
#912 Posted by PM,
...though in such cases they tend to think more deeply about whether it is worth it.
Whether it is worth it or not, that is the question. To Muslims, it is worth it. To you it isn't. And that's the mental block I was referring to in #910.
...though in such cases they tend to think more deeply about whether it is worth it.
Whether it is worth it or not, that is the question. To Muslims, it is worth it. To you it isn't. And that's the mental block I was referring to in #910.
#913 Posted by zeemax on July 18, 2007 1:37:40 pm
#909 Posted by GT,
If so, then you are a flaming LIBERAL who is extremely upset by this onslaught against Muslims.
Yes. I haven't slept more than a disturbed few hours since 3rd July.
If so, then you are a flaming LIBERAL who is extremely upset by this onslaught against Muslims.
Yes. I haven't slept more than a disturbed few hours since 3rd July.
#912 Posted by PM on July 18, 2007 1:20:15 pm
re.
"They lay down their lives for friends unthinkingly without distinction of caste, creed or colour ... that is Islam. "
I'm sure you mean this in the way it is said that something is a very "Christian thing" to do. Not in a definitive way (of Christianity), that is.
Unless you actually believe that such chivalry is unique to Islam or to religion? People are often willing to lay down their lives even without a belief in the hereafter, though in such cases they tend to think more deeply about whether it is worth it.
"They lay down their lives for friends unthinkingly without distinction of caste, creed or colour ... that is Islam. "
I'm sure you mean this in the way it is said that something is a very "Christian thing" to do. Not in a definitive way (of Christianity), that is.
Unless you actually believe that such chivalry is unique to Islam or to religion? People are often willing to lay down their lives even without a belief in the hereafter, though in such cases they tend to think more deeply about whether it is worth it.
#911 Posted by jang on July 18, 2007 1:07:18 pm
only islami resurgence i see here is fratricide...most recently between masadi and jeemax. gt and kaal banias are throwing kerosene in it and later will even demand money for the spent fueld..and echo is a paid agent of the west..not a real muslim.
#910 Posted by zeemax on July 18, 2007 12:52:35 pm
Look GT ... there's a great mental block here ... (I wish kaalchakra was here because he knows what I talk about and puts it in better words than me).
For others, life is everything, and the rest is 'dekhi jayeegi'.
In Islam, the hereafter is everything, and life is 'dekhi jayeegi'.
So its exactly the reverse. How can a meeting of the minds occur in that case?
That is why it is called an 'ideology of death'. It is not. It is an ideology which takes into account reality of death openly and translates it into how to live a fair life.
For others, life is everything, and the rest is 'dekhi jayeegi'.
In Islam, the hereafter is everything, and life is 'dekhi jayeegi'.
So its exactly the reverse. How can a meeting of the minds occur in that case?
That is why it is called an 'ideology of death'. It is not. It is an ideology which takes into account reality of death openly and translates it into how to live a fair life.
#909 Posted by GT on July 18, 2007 12:48:34 pm
#906 Posted by zeemax:
Sometime back you said:
"But, to answer your question, after having wracked my mind,"
I take it from this statement that you are THINKING when you say:
"But what if resolution through argument and practical logic is not possible?
Then, the better side would have won. Simple."
If so, then you are a flaming LIBERAL who is extremely upset by this onslaught against Muslims.
So what you are saying is that after THINKING you come to the conclusion that
Sometime back you said:
"But, to answer your question, after having wracked my mind,"
I take it from this statement that you are THINKING when you say:
"But what if resolution through argument and practical logic is not possible?
Then, the better side would have won. Simple."
If so, then you are a flaming LIBERAL who is extremely upset by this onslaught against Muslims.
So what you are saying is that after THINKING you come to the conclusion that