Preventing More Lal Masjids
Pervez Hoodbhoy July 10, 2007
#1005 Posted by fmshah on December 24, 2008 5:11:04 am
Here's a tale of two Pakistani self-haters and defeatists who enjoy every moment of hating themselves and their country: Dr. Pervaiz Hoodbhoy and Asma Jahangir.
Whenever there is a writing project in any newspaper anywhere in the world where they want to bash Pakistan using a Pakistani name, they call one man in Islamabad: Dr. Hoodbhoy. He spews more venom against Pakistan than Hamid Karzai and Bal Thackery - an Indian Hindu terrorist - combined.
Asma Jahangir, another defeatist who went to India to shake the hands of Narendar Modi, the killer of 2500 Indian Muslims, has just volunteered to Hindustan Times to confirm that Mumbai terror was a Pakistani conspiracy [see below].
Here's a letter sent by a Pakistani young man to Dr. Pervaiz Hoodbhoy, a Pakistani self-hater, and received no reply. And then watch Asma Jahangir's video.
Recommendation: We need to start a witch-hunt in Pakistan to cleanse our academia and public life of such self-haters and defeatists who poison the minds of young Pakistanis about their homeland. Such academics and human rights activists should not be allowed to hide behind the freedom of expression.
TO: Dr. Pervaiz A. Hoodbhoy
Professor and Chairman
Physic Department
Quaid-e-Azam University,
Islamabad.
E-mail: hoodb...@lns.mit.edu
NATION WILL NEVER FORGIVE YOU
Dear Dr Pervaiz Hoodbhoy Sahib,
I have been reading your articles and research reports and watching your interviews on different TV channels on different issues. I have tried to go through your articles again and again to satisfy myself that whatsoever you are speaking in the name of freedom of speech is just an ordinary criticism and could be a difference of opinion.
But I regret to say that I am unable to do so. In dozens of your articles and interviews you have never ever said a single positive thing about Pakistan and have always tried to portray a false picture of Pakistan, according to which Pakistan is a failed state. Whether it's the issue of extremism, or Pakistan's nuclear assets, or Pak-India relations, or if there is an issue of western and Indian allegations, you have always come up with your nasty ideas to prove to the world community that whatever the enemies of Pakistan are saying, you are more than happy to say it from them, using a Pakistani identity, which is an act for which you feel no shame.
I am not sure if Pakistanis have seen your massive one-man campaign against Pakistan where you have alleged that we are not capable of retaining our nuclear assets. Or, now, after the Mumbai attacks, when even the cheapest of Pakistani politicians have shown some kind of patriotism and unity for the sake of Pakistan, at this crucial time again you are trying to prove what the enemies of Pakistan are trying to do. I fail to understand what motivates you except gaining popularity in West or even in India.
India is a so-called democracy where low caste Hindus, Christians and Muslims are burned alive [a ritual unique to India, doesn't happen anywhere else], where Hindu extremists are in the government, where groups like Bajrang Dal are trained in Indian Army schools. But India seems like Switzerland after reading one of your articles on India, especially the one you wrote recently after a visit to India. India's terrorist and rogue intelligence agency, RAW, which is funding and supporting separatist movements in our tribal belt and in Balochistan, continues to be an untouchable issue for you. What really is important for you is to put all your efforts toward portraying a negative Pakistan.
I give you an example from the history which you will find self explanatory in reference to our current scenario.
I am not sure if our enemies will impose a war on Pakistan or not but at this crucial stage all your efforts to distort Pakistan's image is not going to remain unnoticed and the nation will never forgive you for what you have done.
Wassalam.
Waqas Ahmed
Muscat, Sultanate of Oman
Whenever there is a writing project in any newspaper anywhere in the world where they want to bash Pakistan using a Pakistani name, they call one man in Islamabad: Dr. Hoodbhoy. He spews more venom against Pakistan than Hamid Karzai and Bal Thackery - an Indian Hindu terrorist - combined.
Asma Jahangir, another defeatist who went to India to shake the hands of Narendar Modi, the killer of 2500 Indian Muslims, has just volunteered to Hindustan Times to confirm that Mumbai terror was a Pakistani conspiracy [see below].
Here's a letter sent by a Pakistani young man to Dr. Pervaiz Hoodbhoy, a Pakistani self-hater, and received no reply. And then watch Asma Jahangir's video.
Recommendation: We need to start a witch-hunt in Pakistan to cleanse our academia and public life of such self-haters and defeatists who poison the minds of young Pakistanis about their homeland. Such academics and human rights activists should not be allowed to hide behind the freedom of expression.
TO: Dr. Pervaiz A. Hoodbhoy
Professor and Chairman
Physic Department
Quaid-e-Azam University,
Islamabad.
E-mail: hoodb...@lns.mit.edu
NATION WILL NEVER FORGIVE YOU
Dear Dr Pervaiz Hoodbhoy Sahib,
I have been reading your articles and research reports and watching your interviews on different TV channels on different issues. I have tried to go through your articles again and again to satisfy myself that whatsoever you are speaking in the name of freedom of speech is just an ordinary criticism and could be a difference of opinion.
But I regret to say that I am unable to do so. In dozens of your articles and interviews you have never ever said a single positive thing about Pakistan and have always tried to portray a false picture of Pakistan, according to which Pakistan is a failed state. Whether it's the issue of extremism, or Pakistan's nuclear assets, or Pak-India relations, or if there is an issue of western and Indian allegations, you have always come up with your nasty ideas to prove to the world community that whatever the enemies of Pakistan are saying, you are more than happy to say it from them, using a Pakistani identity, which is an act for which you feel no shame.
I am not sure if Pakistanis have seen your massive one-man campaign against Pakistan where you have alleged that we are not capable of retaining our nuclear assets. Or, now, after the Mumbai attacks, when even the cheapest of Pakistani politicians have shown some kind of patriotism and unity for the sake of Pakistan, at this crucial time again you are trying to prove what the enemies of Pakistan are trying to do. I fail to understand what motivates you except gaining popularity in West or even in India.
India is a so-called democracy where low caste Hindus, Christians and Muslims are burned alive [a ritual unique to India, doesn't happen anywhere else], where Hindu extremists are in the government, where groups like Bajrang Dal are trained in Indian Army schools. But India seems like Switzerland after reading one of your articles on India, especially the one you wrote recently after a visit to India. India's terrorist and rogue intelligence agency, RAW, which is funding and supporting separatist movements in our tribal belt and in Balochistan, continues to be an untouchable issue for you. What really is important for you is to put all your efforts toward portraying a negative Pakistan.
I give you an example from the history which you will find self explanatory in reference to our current scenario.
I am not sure if our enemies will impose a war on Pakistan or not but at this crucial stage all your efforts to distort Pakistan's image is not going to remain unnoticed and the nation will never forgive you for what you have done.
Wassalam.
Waqas Ahmed
Muscat, Sultanate of Oman
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#1004 Posted by akcheema on February 23, 2008 6:15:52 am
Has any one ever wondered about the following:
If a book (the Qur’an in this situation) is meant to be from God/Allah, why do two individuals of equivalent intelligence always come up with different interpretations of the text?
There are many contradictions in the Quran; the only people unable to see them are those completely brainwashed and have lost the ability to think rationally. They come up with all sorts of historical/non-historical justifications for these such as the arabic language/literary peculiarities etc. nothing substantial or scientific; perhaps they are not aware of this concept.
There are literally billions and billions of galaxies and star systems in our “known� universe; supposedly we are talking about a creator that is well beyond the confines of any material boundaries; why would such a “person� even care about what goes on in individual hearts and minds on a teeny weeny planet! Why would he be upset about, for example, a woman showing off a bit of skin or someone not observing some ritual exactly how it was prescribed (when there are literally hundreds of such, very contradictory, rituals in Islam amongst the sects; not to quote countless other similar examples.
If the “Loh-e-Mahfouz� was the first thing created with the deeds of all living things and their fate already prescribed, what the hell is the meaning of “the free will�?!
If a ruler of my country wanted me to abide by ceratin rules, I would expect them to be laid down explicitly and clearly for all to understand. Otherwise, I would think they were unjust in prosecuting me for misgivings; why are there so many ambiguities as to what the “true Islam� is; that definition is certainly not unanimous by anyone’s standards as we ll know; the interpretations are so varied and far apart at times that it is mind boggling!
According to the Quran, Allah gave his blessings to the Bani Israel but they betrayed his trust many a times, so he went off them completely and chose a different people for revival of his “Only and True Message�! Are we thinking that an omniscient and omnipotent God, with the inherent knowledge of everything, transcendent through the confines of time, made a mistake!! Then he tried to correct it by chosing arabia for his chosen messanger! How odd!!
Prayer is such a contradictory term, don’t you think. If all is already decided, does God change his mind if we were to grovel before him and grants us our desires as a reward; very confusing!!
The only answers I ever got for these as a child, and many other similar questions, was that we CANNOT work out God’s will and he is the only one who does; what the hell are we doing with our assess up in the air five times a day then!!
All of the above seem to be the desires of the needy and not fullfilled “persona� (to quote Al-Razi); Is it that we have created this “persona� is OUR OWN IMAGE rather than the other way around?
Is our “conflict� with the rest of the world sheer paranoia “they are out to get us�!! and the only reason we cannot accept this is our inherent “sense of pride� so deeply indoctrinated that we cannot listen to reason.
The reason I am talking about the Islamic context here is because that is my background and I wish to discuss the very foundations of this faith. It is all very well to hide behind the “good aspects� of Islamic history and ignore the other “less desirable� aspects, but the question is what it is all based on; without foundation, there is nothing left. I criticise any dogma based on “faith� and th other so-called faiths are no exception to this; however, I prefer people from those cultures to comment on their own cultural heritages.
Problem with being “moderate� is that moderation, whatever it might mean, harbours and nurtures extremist elemnts. Extremists to me mean people who are trying to follow their “faiths� down to the last letter. This Sufism etc have nothing to do with what Islam actually is; it is a digression from the mainstream. Sufis were always at the fringes of mainstream society and their ideas of “Sulha-e-kul� etc have nothing to do with the message of Islam; though I do admit it can make Islam a bit more palatable!
If we had all the “knowledge/Ilm� in the Quran, why would we strive for more; the whole idea of “the completeness� of “Deen/way of life� is not compatible with modernity of any kind, however that is defined. Of course we can cherry pick and find quotes to justify absolutely anything that WE WANT TO; that itself is the biggest weakness of religious dogma; interpretable with vast differences of opinions between individuals of equivalent intelligence!
Surely, they can't ALL be true!!!
If a book (the Qur’an in this situation) is meant to be from God/Allah, why do two individuals of equivalent intelligence always come up with different interpretations of the text?
There are many contradictions in the Quran; the only people unable to see them are those completely brainwashed and have lost the ability to think rationally. They come up with all sorts of historical/non-historical justifications for these such as the arabic language/literary peculiarities etc. nothing substantial or scientific; perhaps they are not aware of this concept.
There are literally billions and billions of galaxies and star systems in our “known� universe; supposedly we are talking about a creator that is well beyond the confines of any material boundaries; why would such a “person� even care about what goes on in individual hearts and minds on a teeny weeny planet! Why would he be upset about, for example, a woman showing off a bit of skin or someone not observing some ritual exactly how it was prescribed (when there are literally hundreds of such, very contradictory, rituals in Islam amongst the sects; not to quote countless other similar examples.
If the “Loh-e-Mahfouz� was the first thing created with the deeds of all living things and their fate already prescribed, what the hell is the meaning of “the free will�?!
If a ruler of my country wanted me to abide by ceratin rules, I would expect them to be laid down explicitly and clearly for all to understand. Otherwise, I would think they were unjust in prosecuting me for misgivings; why are there so many ambiguities as to what the “true Islam� is; that definition is certainly not unanimous by anyone’s standards as we ll know; the interpretations are so varied and far apart at times that it is mind boggling!
According to the Quran, Allah gave his blessings to the Bani Israel but they betrayed his trust many a times, so he went off them completely and chose a different people for revival of his “Only and True Message�! Are we thinking that an omniscient and omnipotent God, with the inherent knowledge of everything, transcendent through the confines of time, made a mistake!! Then he tried to correct it by chosing arabia for his chosen messanger! How odd!!
Prayer is such a contradictory term, don’t you think. If all is already decided, does God change his mind if we were to grovel before him and grants us our desires as a reward; very confusing!!
The only answers I ever got for these as a child, and many other similar questions, was that we CANNOT work out God’s will and he is the only one who does; what the hell are we doing with our assess up in the air five times a day then!!
All of the above seem to be the desires of the needy and not fullfilled “persona� (to quote Al-Razi); Is it that we have created this “persona� is OUR OWN IMAGE rather than the other way around?
Is our “conflict� with the rest of the world sheer paranoia “they are out to get us�!! and the only reason we cannot accept this is our inherent “sense of pride� so deeply indoctrinated that we cannot listen to reason.
The reason I am talking about the Islamic context here is because that is my background and I wish to discuss the very foundations of this faith. It is all very well to hide behind the “good aspects� of Islamic history and ignore the other “less desirable� aspects, but the question is what it is all based on; without foundation, there is nothing left. I criticise any dogma based on “faith� and th other so-called faiths are no exception to this; however, I prefer people from those cultures to comment on their own cultural heritages.
Problem with being “moderate� is that moderation, whatever it might mean, harbours and nurtures extremist elemnts. Extremists to me mean people who are trying to follow their “faiths� down to the last letter. This Sufism etc have nothing to do with what Islam actually is; it is a digression from the mainstream. Sufis were always at the fringes of mainstream society and their ideas of “Sulha-e-kul� etc have nothing to do with the message of Islam; though I do admit it can make Islam a bit more palatable!
If we had all the “knowledge/Ilm� in the Quran, why would we strive for more; the whole idea of “the completeness� of “Deen/way of life� is not compatible with modernity of any kind, however that is defined. Of course we can cherry pick and find quotes to justify absolutely anything that WE WANT TO; that itself is the biggest weakness of religious dogma; interpretable with vast differences of opinions between individuals of equivalent intelligence!
Surely, they can't ALL be true!!!
#1003 Posted by nkg on December 11, 2007 8:19:48 pm
I find communism and Islam similar ( I am no expert in both the matters).Both of these beliefs are doing ( apprently) good to one at the cost of others. Try to organise and thrash the oposition to submission. They take stand, which is not principled but most of the people like that. Ultimately, both of these are very popular, but the people follow it, has dismal record of human contribution.
I have heard a nice story....
A gang of robbers looted a bank using fake arms. While escaping, the employees of the bank started shouting. The robbers has come by couple of bicycles. So, how will they escape? Thay have looted around 2.8 lakhs. They have thrown around 1 lakhs to the people around the bank and easily escaped. Most of us are like,those who were collecting money thrown by robbers.
I have heard a nice story....
A gang of robbers looted a bank using fake arms. While escaping, the employees of the bank started shouting. The robbers has come by couple of bicycles. So, how will they escape? Thay have looted around 2.8 lakhs. They have thrown around 1 lakhs to the people around the bank and easily escaped. Most of us are like,those who were collecting money thrown by robbers.
#1002 Posted by nkg on December 11, 2007 8:03:12 pm
Re: # 965
Are you from India? Most of the riots are started by moslems (Meerut, Bhagalpur, Mumbai). Moslems were of the view that they are very couragious and can easily inflict injury to the people there ( most of the people there are vegetarian and strictly practice non violence). When RSS/VHP/Shiv Sena organize people in large number and starts thrashing moslems and police backs them, they starts cribbing. Don't start riots. Use Friday afternoon prayer to bring peace in your mind, not start violence. Why don't you see similar riots with Christians, Jains, Budhdhists in India? The history of riots in Gujrat is more than 200 year old. Most of the time moslems used to start and inflict more casualty on the Gujratis. Last riot (2002), for the first time in Gujrat, moslems were in receiving end.So, the way media is projecting, is not the situation on ground. The riot was supported by large section of non-moslems. How come people of a state, which have a bright son like M K Gandhi resorts to violence? I have sympathy for moslems in Gujrat. But, the problem they have created in Gujrati society is far more dangerous. They are truning into a Hindu equivalent of Moslem society (Left liberal poeple call Gujrat now Hindu Pakistan).
Are you from India? Most of the riots are started by moslems (Meerut, Bhagalpur, Mumbai). Moslems were of the view that they are very couragious and can easily inflict injury to the people there ( most of the people there are vegetarian and strictly practice non violence). When RSS/VHP/Shiv Sena organize people in large number and starts thrashing moslems and police backs them, they starts cribbing. Don't start riots. Use Friday afternoon prayer to bring peace in your mind, not start violence. Why don't you see similar riots with Christians, Jains, Budhdhists in India? The history of riots in Gujrat is more than 200 year old. Most of the time moslems used to start and inflict more casualty on the Gujratis. Last riot (2002), for the first time in Gujrat, moslems were in receiving end.So, the way media is projecting, is not the situation on ground. The riot was supported by large section of non-moslems. How come people of a state, which have a bright son like M K Gandhi resorts to violence? I have sympathy for moslems in Gujrat. But, the problem they have created in Gujrati society is far more dangerous. They are truning into a Hindu equivalent of Moslem society (Left liberal poeple call Gujrat now Hindu Pakistan).
#1001 Posted by nkg on December 11, 2007 7:38:43 pm
Re: # 997
Your mind is perfectly perverted. If you are that much concerned with Indian association, then please stop Pakistani patients to be treated in Indian hospitals. India is much larger opportunity for people of Pakistan than Pakistan. It is up to the individual to decide what he/she wants. Regarding the matter of Kashmir, it is political. When India and USA were in different camp, other than sensitive areas, people to people contact was quite well. Don't mix diplomatic,defence matters with common people's interest. Pakistan is now in better position about Kashmir. Once, USA finds any links with Kashmiri militants with international terrorism, USA will force Pakistan to close these terrorist training camps. Pakistan has lost in all front ( diplomatic channel in UN,military adventure) in Kashmir several times. That is the reason, they are using jihadis in informal way.
Your mind is perfectly perverted. If you are that much concerned with Indian association, then please stop Pakistani patients to be treated in Indian hospitals. India is much larger opportunity for people of Pakistan than Pakistan. It is up to the individual to decide what he/she wants. Regarding the matter of Kashmir, it is political. When India and USA were in different camp, other than sensitive areas, people to people contact was quite well. Don't mix diplomatic,defence matters with common people's interest. Pakistan is now in better position about Kashmir. Once, USA finds any links with Kashmiri militants with international terrorism, USA will force Pakistan to close these terrorist training camps. Pakistan has lost in all front ( diplomatic channel in UN,military adventure) in Kashmir several times. That is the reason, they are using jihadis in informal way.
#1000 Posted by nkg on December 11, 2007 7:28:52 pm
Re: # 998
There are couple of factors you are not taking into account.
What British people will do after capturing the land? That area was not of great resource and significance. So, they have left that area. The role of US technology in defeating USSR is well known.
There are couple of factors you are not taking into account.
What British people will do after capturing the land? That area was not of great resource and significance. So, they have left that area. The role of US technology in defeating USSR is well known.
#999 Posted by hunzai on November 18, 2007 7:16:32 pm
Is there a viable quick fix to the radicalism that has engulfed Pakistan over the last one decade? I don’t think so there is one. Then what is the alternative. Regrettably there is not any single alternative either. There will always be a diversity of interpretations of Islam (as has been historically), diversity of religious expressions, political persuasions and some form of radicalism. This has been the general historic pattern and character of any Muslim society for a very very long period of Islam’s tumultuous history. Given these conditions and I suppose sweeping assumptions about the nature of our history then what is so questionable and bewildering about contemporary radicalism in Pakistan. It is the senselessly violent behaviour that has penetrated in the minds of religious zealots that is going to be a terrible thing. So where is the wellspring of this hatred and violence that has to be directed against? It is the West, if we talk in terms of geography, and modernity and its consequences if we talk about in terms of the guiding philosophy. Although West may be a confined idea of a monolithic real and abstract entity but modernity is fluid. Modernity is all over, it has penetrated into the heart of ‘Islam’. So the enemy is all that is modern. These unassailable religious horsemen of apocalypse, always talk about the ‘signs of the day of judgement’ and deliver endless sermons in mosques denigrating the West and its ‘moral decadence’. They will endlessly talk about the promiscuous behaviour of Western women and their jealously guarded liberty, but they miss the fundamental point about this whole exercise.
What is it that they miss? Well they miss the point that modernity is not just a conspiracy against Islam or modernity leads to moral decadence. This is a totally mis-understood phenomenon in the minds of religious zealots. Modernity is all about adopting a critical attitude towards everything, applying human reason in matters of faith, politics, economics and in all aspects of life. The application of reason simply melts away, what Marx called, ‘all that is solid into air.’ It is the constant change that has to stay here staring at our faces to be understood. So what is really important to minimise the catastrophic consequences of radicalism is to radiate the minds of these people with not the symptoms of modernity as symbolised by the West but to illuminate its real intellectual foundations. This way is the only way forward.
What is it that they miss? Well they miss the point that modernity is not just a conspiracy against Islam or modernity leads to moral decadence. This is a totally mis-understood phenomenon in the minds of religious zealots. Modernity is all about adopting a critical attitude towards everything, applying human reason in matters of faith, politics, economics and in all aspects of life. The application of reason simply melts away, what Marx called, ‘all that is solid into air.’ It is the constant change that has to stay here staring at our faces to be understood. So what is really important to minimise the catastrophic consequences of radicalism is to radiate the minds of these people with not the symptoms of modernity as symbolised by the West but to illuminate its real intellectual foundations. This way is the only way forward.
#998 Posted by dawa-i-dil on July 31, 2007 4:37:26 am
the problem is that...we have created fight with those people who freed half of Kashmir...this Azad kashmir was all captured by Mahsood tribe ...and other tribl people....
they are one of the bravest people living on the face of earth....
when British were ruling the whole indo pak..and half of the world...even then British made a pact with them..and not ruled upon them...
Russian like super power could not defeat them...
and US and NATO are unble to defeat them....
but due to our Baighairat generals...we have bombarbed our own people there..and in revenge..they have strted suicide bombing..yes..they also did some mstakes...but firing missiles on madrassas is unaccetable ..
and thats why we have burn the fire of hell..in all this tribal area..which has reached inside Islamabad also....
they are one of the bravest people living on the face of earth....
when British were ruling the whole indo pak..and half of the world...even then British made a pact with them..and not ruled upon them...
Russian like super power could not defeat them...
and US and NATO are unble to defeat them....
but due to our Baighairat generals...we have bombarbed our own people there..and in revenge..they have strted suicide bombing..yes..they also did some mstakes...but firing missiles on madrassas is unaccetable ..
and thats why we have burn the fire of hell..in all this tribal area..which has reached inside Islamabad also....
#997 Posted by dawa-i-dil on July 31, 2007 4:36:44 am
in the early days...he started to change the religious axis of pakistan....
his first picture was..in front of PM house with small dog in his hand....to show people he is very moderate....
he lived in Turkey..so he fisrt declared that his most beloved personality is Kamal Attaturk...so..he wanted to transform pakistan into Turkey..and considered himself as Attaturk of Pakistan....
but thanks god...the religious masses of pakistan were so strong that...despite of his 8 years ..efforts..he could not change the pakistan into secular Turkey..and also infleunced the Army to be like Turkish Natinal Army..but he also failed in this regard...
though ..in these efforts..he made enormous losses to whole Pakistan idelogical axis..with a lot of anarchy and suicide bombings...and reactionary efforts of Lal Masjid..etc....
On Basant ..in 6 years..full time ...Baighairti...Shabab-o-Kabab mehfils..mujras..and other things...he himself was in Lahore on basant nights for 6 years..when atlast Supreme court put a complete ban on Basant....
He also tried to secularize the Army by regular basis musicaol concerts in every garrison and Abrar ..and other were invited on night dinners...there..still today....while Zia ul haq..never allowed that...
In his foolish thinking that iNdia will compromise on Kashmir..he turned whole pakistan media into indian culture..Meera going there..there singers and actors..and film stars coming here....but the Indians shown him boots on Kashmir issue..no dialogue at all...
he ordered the music classes in Punjab university..although students protested against that..but his nasha of enlightened moderation was overwhelming him...
PTV ..and other private channels are so much that sometimes they beat even indian channels in nudity and baighairti ..but no check from government at all....
these all are the fruits of this Dictator era...
his first picture was..in front of PM house with small dog in his hand....to show people he is very moderate....
he lived in Turkey..so he fisrt declared that his most beloved personality is Kamal Attaturk...so..he wanted to transform pakistan into Turkey..and considered himself as Attaturk of Pakistan....
but thanks god...the religious masses of pakistan were so strong that...despite of his 8 years ..efforts..he could not change the pakistan into secular Turkey..and also infleunced the Army to be like Turkish Natinal Army..but he also failed in this regard...
though ..in these efforts..he made enormous losses to whole Pakistan idelogical axis..with a lot of anarchy and suicide bombings...and reactionary efforts of Lal Masjid..etc....
On Basant ..in 6 years..full time ...Baighairti...Shabab-o-Kabab mehfils..mujras..and other things...he himself was in Lahore on basant nights for 6 years..when atlast Supreme court put a complete ban on Basant....
He also tried to secularize the Army by regular basis musicaol concerts in every garrison and Abrar ..and other were invited on night dinners...there..still today....while Zia ul haq..never allowed that...
In his foolish thinking that iNdia will compromise on Kashmir..he turned whole pakistan media into indian culture..Meera going there..there singers and actors..and film stars coming here....but the Indians shown him boots on Kashmir issue..no dialogue at all...
he ordered the music classes in Punjab university..although students protested against that..but his nasha of enlightened moderation was overwhelming him...
PTV ..and other private channels are so much that sometimes they beat even indian channels in nudity and baighairti ..but no check from government at all....
these all are the fruits of this Dictator era...
#996 Posted by dawa-i-dil on July 31, 2007 4:35:42 am
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#995 Posted by dawa-i-dil on July 31, 2007 4:34:21 am
These bloody .....broke the country...made pakistan..and heroin state..gave waters of 3 rivers to pakistan....and atlast..made the whole country ..in the burning fire of suicide attacks.....
these lanti...harami..generals ..consider themselves above every law..and rule and regulations.....
they have created a state within a state in pakistan....
there budget is never presented in National Assembly or Senate.....the most highest bodies of pakistan....
Nobody knows where the 60% of GDP go......
Minerva...come and look at he castle or palace of Lahore Corp Commander in Defence area...at night...1000's of bulbs glow..on his palace..who is he ...a soldier ..whose job is to defend country..but these baighairat kuttai....looted the money for thier own luxuries....
go and see ..how these Baighairat generals go in thier precious cars to have golf match in evening.....like they have conquered Kashmir.....
go and see..how these bloody general's wives...go to Cavalary..and Liberty market.. ...for shopping in offical cars....like they are queens of pakistan...bah.... lanti
in same Lahore..people have not pure water to drink..the patients are dying as they have no medicine..and these harami generals are enjoying the Pakistan money for thier badmashi...drunkards kuttai ........
for 60 years...they have made pakistan...the most corrupt...and beggar country....of the world...
these baighairat generals... ...DHA princes..and land mafia generals..are now...on the way..to eat whole Gwadar lands..in thier greed.....
These lanti generals ..consider themselves as very superior ...and call us " bloody civilians" ..lanti na ho tau......
what they have given to pakistan in 60 years..except..the kicking off the elected govermnets of 150 millions...or gallows to elected PM ..etc....
in my eyes..the only solution is...to have gallows...be constructed in Islamabad Abpara Chowk..bring all these baighairat generals ..to that..place..and sentence them to death..in front of all nation.....thats the only solution left...if we want to get rid of this cancer...
these lanti...harami..generals ..consider themselves above every law..and rule and regulations.....
they have created a state within a state in pakistan....
there budget is never presented in National Assembly or Senate.....the most highest bodies of pakistan....
Nobody knows where the 60% of GDP go......
Minerva...come and look at he castle or palace of Lahore Corp Commander in Defence area...at night...1000's of bulbs glow..on his palace..who is he ...a soldier ..whose job is to defend country..but these baighairat kuttai....looted the money for thier own luxuries....
go and see ..how these Baighairat generals go in thier precious cars to have golf match in evening.....like they have conquered Kashmir.....
go and see..how these bloody general's wives...go to Cavalary..and Liberty market.. ...for shopping in offical cars....like they are queens of pakistan...bah.... lanti
in same Lahore..people have not pure water to drink..the patients are dying as they have no medicine..and these harami generals are enjoying the Pakistan money for thier badmashi...drunkards kuttai ........
for 60 years...they have made pakistan...the most corrupt...and beggar country....of the world...
these baighairat generals... ...DHA princes..and land mafia generals..are now...on the way..to eat whole Gwadar lands..in thier greed.....
These lanti generals ..consider themselves as very superior ...and call us " bloody civilians" ..lanti na ho tau......
what they have given to pakistan in 60 years..except..the kicking off the elected govermnets of 150 millions...or gallows to elected PM ..etc....
in my eyes..the only solution is...to have gallows...be constructed in Islamabad Abpara Chowk..bring all these baighairat generals ..to that..place..and sentence them to death..in front of all nation.....thats the only solution left...if we want to get rid of this cancer...
#994 Posted by dawa-i-dil on July 31, 2007 4:33:31 am
An elected leader of 15 crore people declined 5 phone calls of US President...as he knew...if he will not disobey him...2/3 majority in National Assembly against him..will kick him out from PM seat....
While this baighairat general...about which Clinton ..was not willing to shake hands with him...on eve of 11 september 2001..laid down his all weapons on his bed when he listened tothe 3rd level secretary of US ...lanat on him....
is this the respect of a nuclear and missile state....can an elected leader do that.....without taking into consideration his cabinet..NA ..Senate...and pals like Saudia..Emirates..and China etc....
just as this baihghairat Dictaor got a golden chance to "Legetamize" his millitary rule..in eyes of US and West....and for his seat...he pushed the whole pakistan..in fire and hell...of that war..which was not actually of pakistan....and accepted every thing they demanded..shame on him.....
can an elected goverment do that..it is answerable to 10's of institution..this Dictaor was not answerable to anyone....
and plz..dont give me psuedo threats of US attackilng pakistan and taking her to cave era or stone age like crap.....only dictators having no public support fear from these childish threats...not any elected government of 150 millions......
While this baighairat general...about which Clinton ..was not willing to shake hands with him...on eve of 11 september 2001..laid down his all weapons on his bed when he listened tothe 3rd level secretary of US ...lanat on him....
is this the respect of a nuclear and missile state....can an elected leader do that.....without taking into consideration his cabinet..NA ..Senate...and pals like Saudia..Emirates..and China etc....
just as this baihghairat Dictaor got a golden chance to "Legetamize" his millitary rule..in eyes of US and West....and for his seat...he pushed the whole pakistan..in fire and hell...of that war..which was not actually of pakistan....and accepted every thing they demanded..shame on him.....
can an elected goverment do that..it is answerable to 10's of institution..this Dictaor was not answerable to anyone....
and plz..dont give me psuedo threats of US attackilng pakistan and taking her to cave era or stone age like crap.....only dictators having no public support fear from these childish threats...not any elected government of 150 millions......
#993 Posted by dawa-i-dil on July 31, 2007 4:32:58 am
Do you not know this simple fact that newton's 3rd Law..is more applicable to our social life rather than Physics...
do you not know..what this Baighairat general did in 8 years to change the ideological islamic axis of pakistan....
nobody wants cave vesrion of jahil taliban type islam in Pakistan...but is it means that you start Sharab-o-Kabab mehfils..in every nook and corner of the country... semi nude Marathon races...the cable dish atmosphere... ..indian kanjar culture...the indo pak blend of film and drama industry...music cocerts in army areas in whole Pakistan...where these Baighairat generals...having drinks in hands....dance with the singers.....
* do you not know what is happening in pakistan in whole this dictator era....the Basant ....and mujras..and chaklas ...stage dances.....and brothels....where were they leading to pakistan....
Thjis baighairat general....asked for Imam-e-Kaaba ...last few months..when the whole country stood with CJ of Pakistan..why not he remebered to have one more Marathon Race...with logo Dor mairai Lahore.....why he invited Imam-e-Kaaba..and start giving proofs of his entering the Khana Kaaba and on his roof....
can you change the religious axis of pakistan on the name of so called Enlightened Moderation.....can people will accept all these things....
will they not react....before this Dictator..where were all talibans...when they actualy ruling in Afghanistan..therewas no talbinization in whole pakistan..and when they are not actually n the scene..suddenly..this Talbinization ..reached inside Islamabad...why ???????
When you try to change the mindset of traditions..then be ready to face the music also....
do you not know..what this Baighairat general did in 8 years to change the ideological islamic axis of pakistan....
nobody wants cave vesrion of jahil taliban type islam in Pakistan...but is it means that you start Sharab-o-Kabab mehfils..in every nook and corner of the country... semi nude Marathon races...the cable dish atmosphere... ..indian kanjar culture...the indo pak blend of film and drama industry...music cocerts in army areas in whole Pakistan...where these Baighairat generals...having drinks in hands....dance with the singers.....
* do you not know what is happening in pakistan in whole this dictator era....the Basant ....and mujras..and chaklas ...stage dances.....and brothels....where were they leading to pakistan....
Thjis baighairat general....asked for Imam-e-Kaaba ...last few months..when the whole country stood with CJ of Pakistan..why not he remebered to have one more Marathon Race...with logo Dor mairai Lahore.....why he invited Imam-e-Kaaba..and start giving proofs of his entering the Khana Kaaba and on his roof....
can you change the religious axis of pakistan on the name of so called Enlightened Moderation.....can people will accept all these things....
will they not react....before this Dictator..where were all talibans...when they actualy ruling in Afghanistan..therewas no talbinization in whole pakistan..and when they are not actually n the scene..suddenly..this Talbinization ..reached inside Islamabad...why ???????
When you try to change the mindset of traditions..then be ready to face the music also....
#992 Posted by dawa-i-dil on July 31, 2007 4:32:17 am
You said that Lal Masjid was a drama and threat of islamic millitants....
hahahah....
*do you know...the ISI HQ is about 200 or 400 yards from the Lal Mosque....
* the petrol bombs...rocket launchers...gas masks..accumulated to this mosque in invisble mode...i think.....
* the ISI personals were drinkinng daru ..and enjoying soota of powder wali cigaratte when all arms were going in.....
* is it possible that..inside heart of a capital..and adjacent to ISI HQ....the dangerous arms keep on gathering....
* The baighairat general and his bloody baihgat generals ka tola ...instteadof using IB..MI..and ISI for national security..were using them to gather funny and ridiculous....proofs of Chef Justice inside house photographs..bugging the 19 SC judges...phone tapping...and threatening them with pressures.....Lanat on them...is in UK or USA..can you think..the government can do such dirty things....
* bugging of all High Courts ..and judges housese so that they cnnot unfold..the Chor Bazari..of the government..and black mail them...lanat on all the Baighatrs general's Tola again....
*when secret agents are on phone tapping of judges...can they know..wht is happening inside the heart of capital...in a place which is already famous for tensive speeches and vogorousss elements....
*who supported Ghazi brothers for 20 years...were all armed forces were not with them...now they have become the terrorists....
* i am against their implementation ways..but what they are saying...is 100% right..do you not know..what is going on in the name of enlightened Moderation..are you so unaware of that...Aunti Shameem...regulars customers were many Federal Secreatries..and 2 Ministers....and police invited the girls to stop that..as they said ..we are helpless due to government pressure..i am aginst the way the girls raided..but its not the duty of law enforcement agencies to stop these things..tell me...
hahahah....
*do you know...the ISI HQ is about 200 or 400 yards from the Lal Mosque....
* the petrol bombs...rocket launchers...gas masks..accumulated to this mosque in invisble mode...i think.....
* the ISI personals were drinkinng daru ..and enjoying soota of powder wali cigaratte when all arms were going in.....
* is it possible that..inside heart of a capital..and adjacent to ISI HQ....the dangerous arms keep on gathering....
* The baighairat general and his bloody baihgat generals ka tola ...instteadof using IB..MI..and ISI for national security..were using them to gather funny and ridiculous....proofs of Chef Justice inside house photographs..bugging the 19 SC judges...phone tapping...and threatening them with pressures.....Lanat on them...is in UK or USA..can you think..the government can do such dirty things....
* bugging of all High Courts ..and judges housese so that they cnnot unfold..the Chor Bazari..of the government..and black mail them...lanat on all the Baighatrs general's Tola again....
*when secret agents are on phone tapping of judges...can they know..wht is happening inside the heart of capital...in a place which is already famous for tensive speeches and vogorousss elements....
*who supported Ghazi brothers for 20 years...were all armed forces were not with them...now they have become the terrorists....
* i am against their implementation ways..but what they are saying...is 100% right..do you not know..what is going on in the name of enlightened Moderation..are you so unaware of that...Aunti Shameem...regulars customers were many Federal Secreatries..and 2 Ministers....and police invited the girls to stop that..as they said ..we are helpless due to government pressure..i am aginst the way the girls raided..but its not the duty of law enforcement agencies to stop these things..tell me...
#991 Posted by nasah on July 26, 2007 7:20:24 pm
In my view way one of the surest ways to prevent more Lal Masjids will be exactly what some of the smartest personnel of PTV did to that bearded Mualla Aziz on prine time -- interviewed him in Burqa on national TV teaching the the PTV audience -- not how to give birth to an Islamist militant without a tear -- but how to wear Burqa over a beard with poise and piety -- and still be taken seriously.
I tip my hat for the PTV staff for doing world’s most creative interviewing on PTV.
I tip my hat for the PTV staff for doing world’s most creative interviewing on PTV.
#990 Posted by Al_Bundy on July 23, 2007 8:33:38 pm
An article in an online Arabic Insternational Paper (English Edition); author's got some good points
http://www.asharq-e.com/news.asp?section=2&id=9654
Today in Pakistan
22/07/2007
Hussein Shobokshi
After the dust has settled, gunfire sounds abated and bodies buried following the siege of the Red Mosque in Pakistan, it might be useful to contemplate deeply the conditions of this large Islamic country and how it has transformed into a hotbed of corruption and extremism.
Pakistan was just a project of a country for the Muslims in the Indian subcontinent. But firstly, this idea was founded upon secular and economic bases, which soon evaporated and vanished vis-à -vis the military coup d'états and corrupt regimes. The most dangerous era of Pakistan’s contemporary history, however, is that between Zulfikar Ali Bhutto and Mohammed Zia ul Haq, when state institutions, which Bhutto sought to establish, were destroyed at the hands of Zia ul Haq, as he allowed the extremist ideology to proliferate and penetrate, and further strengthened the military institution at the expense of civil institutions, creating a favorable climate for corruption. Subsequently, Pakistan transformed into a breeding ground for nepotism and was cited as an example of corruption and included on the lists of corrupt states. Without doubt, the successive governments, which came to power after Zia ul Haq, fell into this quagmire.
What has happened in Pakistan may be full of lessons for what could afflict more than one Arab state, particularly in view of the abominable extremism of Islamist groups, a large number of which have become hard-line, and the judiciary that collapsed before the exacerbation of corruption and despotism of military rulers. Meanwhile, we cannot overlook drawing comparisons between India and Pakistan, whereby India created a dazzling political system and reaped the fruits of stability that was boosted by an economic growth approximating a miracle.
Pakistan should have followed a development approach to concern itself with internal issues rather than devote itself to the Kashmir cause for example, in which millions of dollars were spent and scores of people were killed. This cause is not of great significance because Indian Muslims themselves enjoy good and safe conditions. For instance, the Indian president and India’s richest businessman [Azim Premji] are Muslims amongst others. Therefore, if stability and security were maintained in Kashmir without foreign intervention, it would become an active player in the homeland.
In fact, the tremendous collapse that afflicted Pakistan and turned its provinces into disputing statelets, some of which are out of control, should be taken into consideration and its consequences should be deliberated upon. Therefore, if the Pakistani disease becomes worse, it will lead to the collapse of the Pakistani government and army that is being penetrated by radical fundamentalism and Pakistan will be transformed into a lifeless jungle.
Hussein Shobokshi
A Businessman and prominent columnist. Mr. Shobokshi hosts the weekly current affairs program Al Takreer on Al Arabiya, and in 1995, he was chosen as one of the "Global Leaders for Tomorrow" by the World Economic Forum. He received his B.A. in Political Science and Management from the University of Tulsa.
http://www.asharq-e.com/news.asp?section=2&id=9654
Today in Pakistan
22/07/2007
Hussein Shobokshi
After the dust has settled, gunfire sounds abated and bodies buried following the siege of the Red Mosque in Pakistan, it might be useful to contemplate deeply the conditions of this large Islamic country and how it has transformed into a hotbed of corruption and extremism.
Pakistan was just a project of a country for the Muslims in the Indian subcontinent. But firstly, this idea was founded upon secular and economic bases, which soon evaporated and vanished vis-à -vis the military coup d'états and corrupt regimes. The most dangerous era of Pakistan’s contemporary history, however, is that between Zulfikar Ali Bhutto and Mohammed Zia ul Haq, when state institutions, which Bhutto sought to establish, were destroyed at the hands of Zia ul Haq, as he allowed the extremist ideology to proliferate and penetrate, and further strengthened the military institution at the expense of civil institutions, creating a favorable climate for corruption. Subsequently, Pakistan transformed into a breeding ground for nepotism and was cited as an example of corruption and included on the lists of corrupt states. Without doubt, the successive governments, which came to power after Zia ul Haq, fell into this quagmire.
What has happened in Pakistan may be full of lessons for what could afflict more than one Arab state, particularly in view of the abominable extremism of Islamist groups, a large number of which have become hard-line, and the judiciary that collapsed before the exacerbation of corruption and despotism of military rulers. Meanwhile, we cannot overlook drawing comparisons between India and Pakistan, whereby India created a dazzling political system and reaped the fruits of stability that was boosted by an economic growth approximating a miracle.
Pakistan should have followed a development approach to concern itself with internal issues rather than devote itself to the Kashmir cause for example, in which millions of dollars were spent and scores of people were killed. This cause is not of great significance because Indian Muslims themselves enjoy good and safe conditions. For instance, the Indian president and India’s richest businessman [Azim Premji] are Muslims amongst others. Therefore, if stability and security were maintained in Kashmir without foreign intervention, it would become an active player in the homeland.
In fact, the tremendous collapse that afflicted Pakistan and turned its provinces into disputing statelets, some of which are out of control, should be taken into consideration and its consequences should be deliberated upon. Therefore, if the Pakistani disease becomes worse, it will lead to the collapse of the Pakistani government and army that is being penetrated by radical fundamentalism and Pakistan will be transformed into a lifeless jungle.
Hussein Shobokshi
A Businessman and prominent columnist. Mr. Shobokshi hosts the weekly current affairs program Al Takreer on Al Arabiya, and in 1995, he was chosen as one of the "Global Leaders for Tomorrow" by the World Economic Forum. He received his B.A. in Political Science and Management from the University of Tulsa.
#989 Posted by Al_Bundy on July 23, 2007 8:26:40 pm
An almost honest (with spin) article by a Pakistani writer in a Pakistani paper
http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=65516
Bleeding Pakistan
By Anees Jillani
I probably have spent all my life pleading with the relevant quarters not to support militancy, whether directed towards our eastern or western neighbour. However, I have always given a 'sermon' about bleeding the Indians and the doctrine of strategic depth when it came to supporting the Taliban in Afghanistan. India did not really bleed in the nineties and early part of this decade, except that the Muslims in the Indian-held Kashmir and the foreign mujahideen waging a jihad did; the Indian defence forces nevertheless definitely also incurred a cost, both financial and a substantial human loss. A few major bomb blasts in Mumbai and Delhi also resulted in extensive damage. While the Indians bled we were not spared either and had our own share of bomb blasts coinciding with the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and continuing till date. In fact, we also experienced something that the Indians did not: sectarian violence that led the factions to even kill worshippers in mosques while praying.
We may blame 9/11 for turning the tables but things had started to deteriorate prior to that. The withdrawal from the Kargil heights in 1999 was seen by many in the Indian-held Kashmir as a great betrayal and broke the back of the freedom movement that was already experiencing immense difficulties. However, 9/11 forced Pakistan to discontinue `its moral, diplomatic and political support to the freedom fighters of Kashmir'. The attack on the Indian Parliament and the consequent belligerent reaction resulted in President Musharraf making his famous January 2002 speech renouncing and denouncing all support to terrorist outfits. Several mujahideen organisations were banned following that speech.
There is no turning back and it has been our continuous fate to bleed since. The freedom fighters and the mujahideen have apparently decided to first free themselves and us from the clutches of the American sponsored rulers before turning their attention to neighbouring states. Most of these outfits have an Islamic orientation and thus also inclined to attack Shiites. The situation is thus chaotic, to say the least as the unemployed freedom fighters are constantly looking for excuses to hit at the state while the Taliban on our western borders are consolidating themselves in the tribal areas and also practice target shooting on our troops.
The most ironical part of this whole development is the sizeable support that these militants enjoy throughout Pakistan, particularly in most parts of the Frontier Province and the tribal areas. It is thus almost a `catch-22' situation in that any move to crush the militants results in gearing more public sympathy for them. The fact that the whole exercise to oppose the Islamic militants is widely seen as an American sponsored ploy does not help matters.
The Lal Masjid fiasco must be seen in light of the above context. The Indians experienced such sieges a number of times in the Indian-held Kashmir. It was now our turn to bleed. Not everybody can operate a sub-machine gun as competently and professionally as the militants did at the Lal Masjid. They were obviously trained. Where were they trained? And by whom?
Pakistan also remains one of those few countries left where one can buy machine guns, grenades and anti-air craft guns especially from the tribal areas and even from rest of Pakistan as easily if one was purchasing detergents. Our intelligence agencies most of the time know the minutest details about the personal lives of our politicians and other relevant personalities, particularly those opposed to the rulers, but cannot seem to find out how sophisticated arms reached the mosque and the madressahs. No one could even tell till the end about the estimated number of militants, students, children and women holed-up in the mosque. This is nothing short of shocking and a shame as the crisis did not erupt suddenly and had been brewing since January this year. What were our agencies and the interior ministry personnel doing all this time?
It is for history and the public to judge as to how the crisis was handled. However, it became obvious to all that the country has no force and mechanism to deal with such situations. There are special forces constituted to control such eventualities in other countries. Special committees or task forces are automatically convened in such situations. We had none and the government did not even bother to call a meeting of the National Security Council in the midst of such an embarrassing quandary. We ended up doing what we always do in such situations: rely on the military. The civilians were nowhere in the picture.
The prime minister mercifully was not on a foreign tour but the interior minister was in Rome to advise the Afghans about improving law and order in their country, while the interior secretary was in Delhi to jointly control terrorism with the Indians. It did not matter that these two key personnel of the interior ministry were not in the country.
The army is not trained to conduct such rescue missions. Patience is the name of the game in such situations while the army usually employs brute power, coupled with tactics, to crush the enemy and this is exactly what we eventually witnessed. It is not the job of the army to negotiate; however, the terms of reference for such assignments in our country are inter-mingled anyway as almost one-third of our top-most diplomats posted abroad are former military generals.
There were no professionals available to negotiate on the government's behalf and the president of the ruling party ended up being the top negotiator. The militants within the Lal mosque till the end kept complaining that they had a hard time understanding Chaudhry Shujaat on the mega-phone and asked him to negotiate face to face; they should have known better. There was no one willing and available to represent the Government of Pakistan in front of these talibs, most of whom were probably in their twenties.
The irony is that nothing has changed even after this bitter experience. The whole world was being told for the past five years that the western media was unnecessarily maligning the madressahs that were rendering immense service. The Americans were rolling in millions of dollars to institutionalise madressahs and improve their system of functioning and they were led to believe that their dollars had turned these religious schools into nothing less than regular high schools in California. However, the fact that a school in the capital of Pakistan right under the noses of our rulers and intelligence agencies was armed to the teeth goes to show the level of inefficiency of our institutions.
The problem is that the world may like to write us off and may avoid us as if we have the plague. But we remain one of the major countries in terms of population and export of terrorism if even a small segment of the populace could prove to be nightmarish for the world. And what are those opposed to militancy and freedom fighting supposed to do in these circumstances? There may be millions in this world who did not clap when the twin towers collapsed in New York but did not clap either when the Americans bombed Iraq and Afghanistan back to the Stone Age? Where do these folks fit in this era of `enlightened moderation?'
The writer is a freelance columnist. Email: aneesjillani@yahoo.com
http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=65516
Bleeding Pakistan
By Anees Jillani
I probably have spent all my life pleading with the relevant quarters not to support militancy, whether directed towards our eastern or western neighbour. However, I have always given a 'sermon' about bleeding the Indians and the doctrine of strategic depth when it came to supporting the Taliban in Afghanistan. India did not really bleed in the nineties and early part of this decade, except that the Muslims in the Indian-held Kashmir and the foreign mujahideen waging a jihad did; the Indian defence forces nevertheless definitely also incurred a cost, both financial and a substantial human loss. A few major bomb blasts in Mumbai and Delhi also resulted in extensive damage. While the Indians bled we were not spared either and had our own share of bomb blasts coinciding with the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and continuing till date. In fact, we also experienced something that the Indians did not: sectarian violence that led the factions to even kill worshippers in mosques while praying.
We may blame 9/11 for turning the tables but things had started to deteriorate prior to that. The withdrawal from the Kargil heights in 1999 was seen by many in the Indian-held Kashmir as a great betrayal and broke the back of the freedom movement that was already experiencing immense difficulties. However, 9/11 forced Pakistan to discontinue `its moral, diplomatic and political support to the freedom fighters of Kashmir'. The attack on the Indian Parliament and the consequent belligerent reaction resulted in President Musharraf making his famous January 2002 speech renouncing and denouncing all support to terrorist outfits. Several mujahideen organisations were banned following that speech.
There is no turning back and it has been our continuous fate to bleed since. The freedom fighters and the mujahideen have apparently decided to first free themselves and us from the clutches of the American sponsored rulers before turning their attention to neighbouring states. Most of these outfits have an Islamic orientation and thus also inclined to attack Shiites. The situation is thus chaotic, to say the least as the unemployed freedom fighters are constantly looking for excuses to hit at the state while the Taliban on our western borders are consolidating themselves in the tribal areas and also practice target shooting on our troops.
The most ironical part of this whole development is the sizeable support that these militants enjoy throughout Pakistan, particularly in most parts of the Frontier Province and the tribal areas. It is thus almost a `catch-22' situation in that any move to crush the militants results in gearing more public sympathy for them. The fact that the whole exercise to oppose the Islamic militants is widely seen as an American sponsored ploy does not help matters.
The Lal Masjid fiasco must be seen in light of the above context. The Indians experienced such sieges a number of times in the Indian-held Kashmir. It was now our turn to bleed. Not everybody can operate a sub-machine gun as competently and professionally as the militants did at the Lal Masjid. They were obviously trained. Where were they trained? And by whom?
Pakistan also remains one of those few countries left where one can buy machine guns, grenades and anti-air craft guns especially from the tribal areas and even from rest of Pakistan as easily if one was purchasing detergents. Our intelligence agencies most of the time know the minutest details about the personal lives of our politicians and other relevant personalities, particularly those opposed to the rulers, but cannot seem to find out how sophisticated arms reached the mosque and the madressahs. No one could even tell till the end about the estimated number of militants, students, children and women holed-up in the mosque. This is nothing short of shocking and a shame as the crisis did not erupt suddenly and had been brewing since January this year. What were our agencies and the interior ministry personnel doing all this time?
It is for history and the public to judge as to how the crisis was handled. However, it became obvious to all that the country has no force and mechanism to deal with such situations. There are special forces constituted to control such eventualities in other countries. Special committees or task forces are automatically convened in such situations. We had none and the government did not even bother to call a meeting of the National Security Council in the midst of such an embarrassing quandary. We ended up doing what we always do in such situations: rely on the military. The civilians were nowhere in the picture.
The prime minister mercifully was not on a foreign tour but the interior minister was in Rome to advise the Afghans about improving law and order in their country, while the interior secretary was in Delhi to jointly control terrorism with the Indians. It did not matter that these two key personnel of the interior ministry were not in the country.
The army is not trained to conduct such rescue missions. Patience is the name of the game in such situations while the army usually employs brute power, coupled with tactics, to crush the enemy and this is exactly what we eventually witnessed. It is not the job of the army to negotiate; however, the terms of reference for such assignments in our country are inter-mingled anyway as almost one-third of our top-most diplomats posted abroad are former military generals.
There were no professionals available to negotiate on the government's behalf and the president of the ruling party ended up being the top negotiator. The militants within the Lal mosque till the end kept complaining that they had a hard time understanding Chaudhry Shujaat on the mega-phone and asked him to negotiate face to face; they should have known better. There was no one willing and available to represent the Government of Pakistan in front of these talibs, most of whom were probably in their twenties.
The irony is that nothing has changed even after this bitter experience. The whole world was being told for the past five years that the western media was unnecessarily maligning the madressahs that were rendering immense service. The Americans were rolling in millions of dollars to institutionalise madressahs and improve their system of functioning and they were led to believe that their dollars had turned these religious schools into nothing less than regular high schools in California. However, the fact that a school in the capital of Pakistan right under the noses of our rulers and intelligence agencies was armed to the teeth goes to show the level of inefficiency of our institutions.
The problem is that the world may like to write us off and may avoid us as if we have the plague. But we remain one of the major countries in terms of population and export of terrorism if even a small segment of the populace could prove to be nightmarish for the world. And what are those opposed to militancy and freedom fighting supposed to do in these circumstances? There may be millions in this world who did not clap when the twin towers collapsed in New York but did not clap either when the Americans bombed Iraq and Afghanistan back to the Stone Age? Where do these folks fit in this era of `enlightened moderation?'
The writer is a freelance columnist. Email: aneesjillani@yahoo.com
#988 Posted by muqaddam on July 22, 2007 5:54:51 am
#956
Are we looking at a communist revolution a-la-Bolshevik revolution in Russia in 1917?
Are we looking at a communist revolution a-la-Bolshevik revolution in Russia in 1917?
#987 Posted by krishna_abcd on July 21, 2007 2:48:34 pm
#979 Posted by KaalChakra
[It seems that the world is (almost) always fully just: we are totally just to others, and others are totally unjust to us. Why mess with this perfection?
:)]
This is music to the ears of the "liberals" - the JNU types and the Islamic apologists - It's 50-50 down the middle. It's eveybody's fault, everybody is
equally to blame.
Here's a dialogue between me and a Islamic Apologist (therefore intellectual) Indian :
Islamic Apologist: Everybody is equally just. Everybody shares the blame equally. Every ideology is equally good/bad. Naziism, Communism,
Fasciism, Non-violence, Shintoism, Buddhism, Jainism, Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam etc. - all are equally bad or good. Everybody is equally to
blame...
Me: Oh really... Okay.... So let's see....
India - Hindus' blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
Thailand - Buddhists' blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
China - Chinese govt's blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
Australia - Australian's blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
UK - Britishers' blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
USA - American's blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
Russia - Russians' blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
Yugoslavia - Christians' blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
Spain - Spanish people's blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
Israel - Jews' blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
Iran - Non-Muslims' blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
France - French people's blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
Netherlands - DUtch people's blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
Germany - Germans' blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
Islamic Apologist: In any case, the only reason Muslims are the common denominator is because of the Mullahs - a recent phenomenon. But in the past,
starting from Muhammad's time, everything was VERY peaceful. You see, Islam is a religion of peace.
Me: A RECENT phenomenon? Can you give me a period of time in Islamic history starting from muhammad's time when there was any peace?
Islamic Apologist: Oh, that was because of the treacherous non-believers. They needed to be defeated, so some violence was necessary, and justified,
and sanctioned by Allah.
Me: Ah. I see, that's why this violence has never stopped. Because there are still treacherous non-believers left.
Islamic Apologist: Exactly!
Me: So why is this "necessary" violence any different from that of Hitler, Stalin etc.
Islamic Apologist: Ah! That's because Hitler, Stalin were not Allah's messengers.... That was an easy one...
Me: And WHO says that muhammad was an Allah's messenger?
Islamic Apologist: Oh, it's obvious from the message....
Me: Exactly WHICH part of which message in the Koran makes you think this way?
Islamic Apologist: Let's not get into specifics here. You sound like a hater....
Me: But that was just a simple question....
Islamic Apologist: Why are you such a HATER? How about YOUR religion? Rat-worshipper! Idolator! Pagan!
Me: Okay so I am a hater. But how about the question? Can I get an answer?
Islamic Apologist: Hater! Intolerant! Modi-follower! RSS suicide bomber! VHP member! Cow-piss drinker! Idolator!
Me: Ummm...okay...bye...
[It seems that the world is (almost) always fully just: we are totally just to others, and others are totally unjust to us. Why mess with this perfection?
:)]
This is music to the ears of the "liberals" - the JNU types and the Islamic apologists - It's 50-50 down the middle. It's eveybody's fault, everybody is
equally to blame.
Here's a dialogue between me and a Islamic Apologist (therefore intellectual) Indian :
Islamic Apologist: Everybody is equally just. Everybody shares the blame equally. Every ideology is equally good/bad. Naziism, Communism,
Fasciism, Non-violence, Shintoism, Buddhism, Jainism, Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam etc. - all are equally bad or good. Everybody is equally to
blame...
Me: Oh really... Okay.... So let's see....
India - Hindus' blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
Thailand - Buddhists' blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
China - Chinese govt's blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
Australia - Australian's blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
UK - Britishers' blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
USA - American's blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
Russia - Russians' blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
Yugoslavia - Christians' blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
Spain - Spanish people's blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
Israel - Jews' blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
Iran - Non-Muslims' blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
France - French people's blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
Netherlands - DUtch people's blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
Germany - Germans' blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
Islamic Apologist: In any case, the only reason Muslims are the common denominator is because of the Mullahs - a recent phenomenon. But in the past,
starting from Muhammad's time, everything was VERY peaceful. You see, Islam is a religion of peace.
Me: A RECENT phenomenon? Can you give me a period of time in Islamic history starting from muhammad's time when there was any peace?
Islamic Apologist: Oh, that was because of the treacherous non-believers. They needed to be defeated, so some violence was necessary, and justified,
and sanctioned by Allah.
Me: Ah. I see, that's why this violence has never stopped. Because there are still treacherous non-believers left.
Islamic Apologist: Exactly!
Me: So why is this "necessary" violence any different from that of Hitler, Stalin etc.
Islamic Apologist: Ah! That's because Hitler, Stalin were not Allah's messengers.... That was an easy one...
Me: And WHO says that muhammad was an Allah's messenger?
Islamic Apologist: Oh, it's obvious from the message....
Me: Exactly WHICH part of which message in the Koran makes you think this way?
Islamic Apologist: Let's not get into specifics here. You sound like a hater....
Me: But that was just a simple question....
Islamic Apologist: Why are you such a HATER? How about YOUR religion? Rat-worshipper! Idolator! Pagan!
Me: Okay so I am a hater. But how about the question? Can I get an answer?
Islamic Apologist: Hater! Intolerant! Modi-follower! RSS suicide bomber! VHP member! Cow-piss drinker! Idolator!
Me: Ummm...okay...bye...
#986 Posted by foggy1 on July 21, 2007 9:20:39 am
what is the use of following events developing,with eyes wide open and brain fully geared to be able to arrive at a prognosis.and yet the end seems shocking.are we in a state of calculated denial.is there any room for mild and lenient thought?and hope. do you have any scientific methodology to guide and nip the horrific in the bud before it is too late? like it was recently qed
#984 Posted by philosopher on July 20, 2007 2:17:12 pm
Dedicated to CJ
UNhi ke faiz say bazara-i-aqal roushan hai
Jo gaahay ba gaahay janoon ikhtiaar kartay hain
UNhi ke faiz say bazara-i-aqal roushan hai
Jo gaahay ba gaahay janoon ikhtiaar kartay hain
#983 Posted by masadi on July 20, 2007 10:33:47 am
#981, tahmed, peon of the West, whether I "fetch samosas" according to your dimwit mentality, or "drive a cab in nyc", according to your friend Hamid, the fact is that I outsmart both you a-holes on Chowk, that is all the recognition I seek for the time being....
#981 Posted by tahmed32 on July 20, 2007 10:23:55 am
#980 masadi: you write "I had predicted long before..."
You are so extremely smart!! Too bad the world does not recognize you genius, and has you running fetching samosas and tea for staff in Govt College, Mian Channu.
You are so extremely smart!! Too bad the world does not recognize you genius, and has you running fetching samosas and tea for staff in Govt College, Mian Channu.
#980 Posted by masadi on July 20, 2007 10:16:15 am
I had predicted long before today's decision restoring the CJ to his office, that this crisis, manufactured by the Americans, using the Pakistan Army in order to punish Musharraf, will lead to its logical end, i.e. a decision against Musharraf. The fools among the people will say that this is a historic moment for Pakistan, something is changing and the Army is losing its authority. Wrong answer, and utopian dreams. The Army is still in charge, Musharraf is losing authority (two different things), because he has lost American support (the main difference between the two).
Don't interpret me wrong. I am not for Musharraf, the sob will get what he deserves soon but these adjustments by the Americans only harm Pakistan and Pakistanis and do not benefit it. The same judiciary that has before always legitimized military rule in Pakistan, cannot change overnight because a CJ took some meds that enhanced the size of his b****. No that is not the case, without military backing this crisis wasn't possible, without military backing this decision was not possible. Now the poor bas**** Musharraf, like I said earlier is running helter skelter like a trapped mouse, one crisis after another. America is leaving no options open for him except for his resignation and a quick sub lease of the Mian's summer home in Saudi Arabia, or a hellfire, with the finger prints of a Mullah, aimed right for his a$$. He knows it, he is scared but he is also stupid, he thinks that somehow he will manage to escape from it all, keep the uniform and keep the presidency and redevelop his relationship with the Americans.....wont happen...
Don't interpret me wrong. I am not for Musharraf, the sob will get what he deserves soon but these adjustments by the Americans only harm Pakistan and Pakistanis and do not benefit it. The same judiciary that has before always legitimized military rule in Pakistan, cannot change overnight because a CJ took some meds that enhanced the size of his b****. No that is not the case, without military backing this crisis wasn't possible, without military backing this decision was not possible. Now the poor bas**** Musharraf, like I said earlier is running helter skelter like a trapped mouse, one crisis after another. America is leaving no options open for him except for his resignation and a quick sub lease of the Mian's summer home in Saudi Arabia, or a hellfire, with the finger prints of a Mullah, aimed right for his a$$. He knows it, he is scared but he is also stupid, he thinks that somehow he will manage to escape from it all, keep the uniform and keep the presidency and redevelop his relationship with the Americans.....wont happen...
#979 Posted by KaalChakra on July 20, 2007 10:00:41 am
tahmedji and Dash_Dot
It seems that the world is (almost) always fully just: we are totally just to others, and others are totally unjust to us. Why mess with this perfection? :)
It seems that the world is (almost) always fully just: we are totally just to others, and others are totally unjust to us. Why mess with this perfection? :)
#978 Posted by tahmed32 on July 20, 2007 6:53:59 am
Dash_Dot: Maybe your stop watch is on Arab Standard Time. :-)
But agreed - chowk staff has I think done more harm than good with this format change. What is the point of having a south asian website if only people with broadband connections in the west can access it without undue wait!!
But agreed - chowk staff has I think done more harm than good with this format change. What is the point of having a south asian website if only people with broadband connections in the west can access it without undue wait!!
#977 Posted by Dash_Dot on July 20, 2007 5:48:14 am
#971 after I posted that reply to you, this damn page took 2.25 mins to load - which is a very long time. Damn Chowk Staff pliss do sometihng about this.
#975 Posted by tahmed32 on July 20, 2007 5:39:33 am
#974 borivili_express of course. (at least that is what i understand, after skimming over borivili's post complaining about some indian muslims not getting their day in court or something).
#974 Posted by harish_hyd on July 20, 2007 5:33:00 am
#972 Posted by tahmed32
What Kaalchakra meant was: "Stop whining".
Whining? Who is doing it? Me, Kaal, or borivili_express?
What Kaalchakra meant was: "Stop whining".
Whining? Who is doing it? Me, Kaal, or borivili_express?
#973 Posted by tahmed32 on July 20, 2007 5:21:16 am
Supreme Court reinstates Chief Justice!!
Great day for all true Pakistanis!!
Very bad day for militarists, mullah hates, and pandit hates.
Great day for all true Pakistanis!!
Very bad day for militarists, mullah hates, and pandit hates.
#972 Posted by tahmed32 on July 20, 2007 5:14:19 am
harish_hyd: Kaalchakra is too profound for you!! Permit me to be his interpreter: What Kaalchakra meant was: "Stop whining". (PS to Kaalchakra: Right boss?)
#971 Posted by tahmed32 on July 20, 2007 5:12:28 am
Dash_Dot: Shouldnt you be helping plague victims rather than avoiding them?
#970 Posted by tahmed32 on July 20, 2007 5:11:11 am
Masadi: Why do you always cover your ass with to $$ signs? ("a$$"). An ass is a noble creature, works hard carrying bricks all day long in the hot sun. All it asks for is the right to bray a few times each day. It has nothing to be ashamed of, nothing to be covered up with two $ signs.
#969 Posted by Dash_Dot on July 20, 2007 2:39:44 am
I have been avoiding FP like as if it has got the plague - since ever since the format change (damn it takes 3 mins to load this page for e.g), but this post by Wheel O time couldl not be resisted
#967 : KaalChakra borivili_express, Hindus will never be fair to Muslims
Wheel O Time, you are being mischievious here by not stating your assumptions here, to arrive at this conclusion. Couldn't it be the other way round?
Again in 967: appropriate to speak of our world as a field of war rather than a marketplace?
Its an interesting vision/image here. Let us carry this forward - within the field are rings. Most of of these have a certain uniformity in them, and particles within these rings could be in brownian motion, but the rings themselves at a macro level donot exhibit this brownian motion, and as such you can assign uniform smooth properties to them. The problems arise when the brownian motion within a particular ring, escapes it and starts to input its unwanted energies into other rings. This upsets the field completely, in that the topology changes and usual metrics do not work. That is when the rings come together to constrain the rogue ring.
hhhhm! you have made an intersting analogy there!
#967 : KaalChakra borivili_express, Hindus will never be fair to Muslims
Wheel O Time, you are being mischievious here by not stating your assumptions here, to arrive at this conclusion. Couldn't it be the other way round?
Again in 967: appropriate to speak of our world as a field of war rather than a marketplace?
Its an interesting vision/image here. Let us carry this forward - within the field are rings. Most of of these have a certain uniformity in them, and particles within these rings could be in brownian motion, but the rings themselves at a macro level donot exhibit this brownian motion, and as such you can assign uniform smooth properties to them. The problems arise when the brownian motion within a particular ring, escapes it and starts to input its unwanted energies into other rings. This upsets the field completely, in that the topology changes and usual metrics do not work. That is when the rings come together to constrain the rogue ring.
hhhhm! you have made an intersting analogy there!
#968 Posted by harish_hyd on July 20, 2007 2:07:46 am
#967 by KaalChakra
borivili_express, Hindus will never be fair to Muslims.
Why do you say that Kaal bhai?
borivili_express, Hindus will never be fair to Muslims.
Why do you say that Kaal bhai?
#967 Posted by KaalChakra on July 20, 2007 1:53:58 am
PM
Just thinking aloud here, in the domain of ideas, might it not be more appropriate to speak of our world as a field of war rather than a marketplace?
iron bhai,
Perfectly totalitarian systems exist. There are, have been, many of them in theory, in vision. In practice, in actual REALITY, no social system can be perfectly totalitarian. And on Chowk, that what is "real" has always been a matter of dispute. Everybody can be right by simply redefining "real" for their own selves.
--------------------
Jang Singh, masadi is totally right on this one. One deceives oneself in expecting to raise architectural marvels on foundations of sand. Hindus will never get this because they dogmatically hold that all mitti is exactly the same (except in appearance) and that sand simply does not exist.
borivili_express, Hindus will never be fair to Muslims.
Just thinking aloud here, in the domain of ideas, might it not be more appropriate to speak of our world as a field of war rather than a marketplace?
iron bhai,
Perfectly totalitarian systems exist. There are, have been, many of them in theory, in vision. In practice, in actual REALITY, no social system can be perfectly totalitarian. And on Chowk, that what is "real" has always been a matter of dispute. Everybody can be right by simply redefining "real" for their own selves.
--------------------
Jang Singh, masadi is totally right on this one. One deceives oneself in expecting to raise architectural marvels on foundations of sand. Hindus will never get this because they dogmatically hold that all mitti is exactly the same (except in appearance) and that sand simply does not exist.
borivili_express, Hindus will never be fair to Muslims.
#966 Posted by krishna_abcd on July 20, 2007 12:57:33 am
Re: #965
Well, what's stopping you from heading west for the land of the pure? Eh?
Jinnah was right. Go to Pakiland. If you really want democracy and justice.
Go now. Go. And don't let the door hit you on the way out.
Well, what's stopping you from heading west for the land of the pure? Eh?
Jinnah was right. Go to Pakiland. If you really want democracy and justice.
Go now. Go. And don't let the door hit you on the way out.
#965 Posted by borivili_express on July 20, 2007 12:49:25 am
Indian/Hindu Democracy in action:
The Times of India -Breaking news, views. reviews, cricket from across India
Driven to despair
20 Jul 2007, 0030 hrs IST,Jyoti Punwani
SMS NEWS to 8888 for latest updates
On January 10, 1993, Hajirabi Qureishi saw her husband and eldest son dragged from her house by Shiv Sainiks who used to hang around the local Sena shakha. When she tried to stop the sainiks, they pushed her off the parapet and she lost consciousness. She never saw her husband and son again.
Much before his inquiry into the 1992-93 Mumbai riots was complete, Justice Srikrishna wrote a letter to the government recommending immediate payment of compensation for missing persons in cases that he had personally investigated. The Qureishis headed that list. Hajirabi should have received Rs 4,00,000; instead she received Rs 2,00,000 eight years later for her husband. Compensation for her son Saleem Qureishi continues to form the subject matter of petitions being heard for the ump-teenth time in the Supreme Court.
Unable to cope with memories of their disappearance, Hajirabi left the Hindu-Muslim chawl that had been home for years to live in a Muslim ghetto. Every known and unknown Muslim organisation had its offices there, including SIMI. Yet they could not recruit Hajira's son Rizwan, his father's favourite.
Farooq Mapkar should have been an ideal candidate for SIMI. Shot in his shoulder on January 10, 1993, while praying inside a mosque, this bank employee saw a namazi being shot dead at point-blank range despite coming out of the mosque with his hands up. Along with the other namazis, Farooq was charged under Section 307.
Fourteen years later, Farooq continues to take leave from his job to attend court hearings in a case declared false by the Srikrishna commission. Contrast this with the case of sub-inspector Nikhil Kapse. The commission found him guilty for unprovoked firing that killed six innocent Muslims. But he was exonerated by a bunch of policemen entrusted with implementing the commission's findings.
The policemen didn't think it necessary to talk to those who testified in front of the commission about the incident involving Kapse. In these 14 years, Kapse hasn't faced a day's suspension. More than Farooq and Rizwan, Abdullah would have made the ideal jehadi. As a 12-year-old, he saw his handicapped father being dragged down the stairs of the madrassa where he taught and shot, pleading for water as he lay dying. Abdullah continued to live in the same madrassa. Eight years later, he joined the legal battle to put behind bars the policemen charged with murder for this incident. When he lost, the entire madrassa felt betrayed.
Even while lashing out at the government's indulgence towards policemen charged with murder, Abdullah was packing his bags for further studies in Deoband. He had graduated from his madrassa with flying colours, with full marks in logic. "Why don't you study law", i asked, "you could fight for your father". "My world is the hereafter", he replied. "He can't get involved in all this", added his teachers.
Mumbai's riot orphans have grown up deprived of their childhood, seen their mothers struggle alone - and often fail - to give them the education their fathers desired for them. They've seen those who led the violent mobs become ministers. A sitting judge pronounced these policemen guilty; his report became an election issue and made ministers out of nobodies, but has yet to be acted upon.
They've seen, over the last year, those who took revenge on their behalf by killing innocent Hindus, being made to pay, some even with life sentences.
Last week, as two Muslim accused in the July 11 train blasts in Mumbai confessed on TV (by a mysterious coincidence, all channels got hold of the footage exactly a year after the blasts), the news anchors screamed: "This man not only betrayed his nation, but also humanity. Doesn't your blood boil when you see this traitor"?
Narendra Modi could be accused of having done the same. No channel asks these questions about him. These double standards are now part of being a Muslim in India's "vibrant" democracy. We should be thankful hundreds of Kafeel Ahmeds haven't produced a swadeshi version of jehad.
The writer is a political commentator.
The Times of India -Breaking news, views. reviews, cricket from across India
Driven to despair
20 Jul 2007, 0030 hrs IST,Jyoti Punwani
SMS NEWS to 8888 for latest updates
On January 10, 1993, Hajirabi Qureishi saw her husband and eldest son dragged from her house by Shiv Sainiks who used to hang around the local Sena shakha. When she tried to stop the sainiks, they pushed her off the parapet and she lost consciousness. She never saw her husband and son again.
Much before his inquiry into the 1992-93 Mumbai riots was complete, Justice Srikrishna wrote a letter to the government recommending immediate payment of compensation for missing persons in cases that he had personally investigated. The Qureishis headed that list. Hajirabi should have received Rs 4,00,000; instead she received Rs 2,00,000 eight years later for her husband. Compensation for her son Saleem Qureishi continues to form the subject matter of petitions being heard for the ump-teenth time in the Supreme Court.
Unable to cope with memories of their disappearance, Hajirabi left the Hindu-Muslim chawl that had been home for years to live in a Muslim ghetto. Every known and unknown Muslim organisation had its offices there, including SIMI. Yet they could not recruit Hajira's son Rizwan, his father's favourite.
Farooq Mapkar should have been an ideal candidate for SIMI. Shot in his shoulder on January 10, 1993, while praying inside a mosque, this bank employee saw a namazi being shot dead at point-blank range despite coming out of the mosque with his hands up. Along with the other namazis, Farooq was charged under Section 307.
Fourteen years later, Farooq continues to take leave from his job to attend court hearings in a case declared false by the Srikrishna commission. Contrast this with the case of sub-inspector Nikhil Kapse. The commission found him guilty for unprovoked firing that killed six innocent Muslims. But he was exonerated by a bunch of policemen entrusted with implementing the commission's findings.
The policemen didn't think it necessary to talk to those who testified in front of the commission about the incident involving Kapse. In these 14 years, Kapse hasn't faced a day's suspension. More than Farooq and Rizwan, Abdullah would have made the ideal jehadi. As a 12-year-old, he saw his handicapped father being dragged down the stairs of the madrassa where he taught and shot, pleading for water as he lay dying. Abdullah continued to live in the same madrassa. Eight years later, he joined the legal battle to put behind bars the policemen charged with murder for this incident. When he lost, the entire madrassa felt betrayed.
Even while lashing out at the government's indulgence towards policemen charged with murder, Abdullah was packing his bags for further studies in Deoband. He had graduated from his madrassa with flying colours, with full marks in logic. "Why don't you study law", i asked, "you could fight for your father". "My world is the hereafter", he replied. "He can't get involved in all this", added his teachers.
Mumbai's riot orphans have grown up deprived of their childhood, seen their mothers struggle alone - and often fail - to give them the education their fathers desired for them. They've seen those who led the violent mobs become ministers. A sitting judge pronounced these policemen guilty; his report became an election issue and made ministers out of nobodies, but has yet to be acted upon.
They've seen, over the last year, those who took revenge on their behalf by killing innocent Hindus, being made to pay, some even with life sentences.
Last week, as two Muslim accused in the July 11 train blasts in Mumbai confessed on TV (by a mysterious coincidence, all channels got hold of the footage exactly a year after the blasts), the news anchors screamed: "This man not only betrayed his nation, but also humanity. Doesn't your blood boil when you see this traitor"?
Narendra Modi could be accused of having done the same. No channel asks these questions about him. These double standards are now part of being a Muslim in India's "vibrant" democracy. We should be thankful hundreds of Kafeel Ahmeds haven't produced a swadeshi version of jehad.
The writer is a political commentator.
#964 Posted by masadi on July 20, 2007 12:24:10 am
Philo "Asked whether US President George W Bush had ruled out US military action inside Pakistan, spokesman Tony Snow replied: 'We never rule out any options, including striking actionable targets.'"
Typical political "covering your a$$" statement by Tony Snow. Obama doesn't rule out military action against Iran either, all options are "on the table" and other such BS so that the opponents don't use your "diplomatic" answer to take it as a sign of weakness, especially when you've conditioned your base to support you on your tough stand in a (contrived) "war on terror". There is nothing new in this assertion, they have already been violating Pakistani borders to pursue civilian "women and children" targets.
If the Pakistani Army was not America's occupation force, now would be a good time to sell the F-16s to North Korea and use that money to buy the latest air defense systems from Russia and knock the predators right out of our "Third World" sky...
Typical political "covering your a$$" statement by Tony Snow. Obama doesn't rule out military action against Iran either, all options are "on the table" and other such BS so that the opponents don't use your "diplomatic" answer to take it as a sign of weakness, especially when you've conditioned your base to support you on your tough stand in a (contrived) "war on terror". There is nothing new in this assertion, they have already been violating Pakistani borders to pursue civilian "women and children" targets.
If the Pakistani Army was not America's occupation force, now would be a good time to sell the F-16s to North Korea and use that money to buy the latest air defense systems from Russia and knock the predators right out of our "Third World" sky...
#963 Posted by masadi on July 20, 2007 12:19:22 am
Jang "so if you idolate, but otherwise lead a fruitful life, maybe hold a day-job, and invent cure for cancer, then what is bad? also, is belief in god also wrong? if an idol is not "truth" what about the god guy? then offcourse there are all the beliefs in messages etc..is believing in them also unnatural? "
Look Einstein, if you believe in a lie that guides your life, regardless of the day jobs you hold, your life is spent chasing a lie, its a narrow life. Regarding the "god guy", do you not get the part in my post about "truth and fact"? Going against truth and fact is injustice. Justice is not "some", it is all or none. Comprendey?
Look Einstein, if you believe in a lie that guides your life, regardless of the day jobs you hold, your life is spent chasing a lie, its a narrow life. Regarding the "god guy", do you not get the part in my post about "truth and fact"? Going against truth and fact is injustice. Justice is not "some", it is all or none. Comprendey?
#962 Posted by majumdar on July 19, 2007 8:46:41 pm
Ahmedmadani sahib,
Re#961
Spoken like a true patriot, sir.
Maulana Zeemax (RA)
(Those bastards and westoxicated intellectuals who didn't believe me when I said if they touch a single burqa-clad, they will be slaughtered. )
The only ones getting slaughtered are ordinary footsoldiers and innocent civilian bystanders. The generals and the intellectuals are all freaking out.
Maulana Urstruly (pbuh),
(How did they contemplate that the results would be any different from Iraq and Afghanistan. )
In Punjab and Sind the result would indeed be different becuase the people here are cowards. Yes, NWFP/B'stan would be a different matter.
Regards
Re#961
Spoken like a true patriot, sir.
Maulana Zeemax (RA)
(Those bastards and westoxicated intellectuals who didn't believe me when I said if they touch a single burqa-clad, they will be slaughtered. )
The only ones getting slaughtered are ordinary footsoldiers and innocent civilian bystanders. The generals and the intellectuals are all freaking out.
Maulana Urstruly (pbuh),
(How did they contemplate that the results would be any different from Iraq and Afghanistan. )
In Punjab and Sind the result would indeed be different becuase the people here are cowards. Yes, NWFP/B'stan would be a different matter.
Regards
#961 Posted by ahmedmadani on July 19, 2007 6:57:40 pm
All good people here like Zeemax who are are betterment of pakistan should KINDLY moderate their view for sake of general welfare. Internal fighting only damages people and nation and peaceful way need to be praised. CJ is good man but he is misguided by political people who hate president.
In given situation where many ( hundreds) have died in less than week including soldiers and luckly chinese engineers survived from attack near Karachi (hub) elections will lead to more termoil and secterian violence and large crowds means easy target for terrorists who want to damage pakistan will be better to be called of for immediate future say 2 years. When things improve elections can take place even earlier. There are lots of foreign powers who want to weaken president such as India, usa, UK, Britain, Canada, Australia and Isarel only China is standing by pakistan and putting its citizen in danger to complete projects they have started. From time of "CJ" trouble Indian activity by their diplomats is getting brisk as well as in border area with A.Stan. In such situation even our friend such as S.Arabia, USA, China, UAE and IRan as suggesting postponeent of elections. Let us hope this election fever goes down and things return to normal. Everybody is sad for deaths in Mosque but what was left for general to do. Whatever he does people criticize them. Some time violence goes up when such things happen but things cool down if leaders behave properly. When Mr. Bugti Sr was killed in fight for few days violence peaked but not gas pipelines, electic towers, railway are working properly and "B.Stan" problem is in control. If people give chance to president for next 2 years he can beat terrorist in their game. If terrorist feel they want to use terror tactics then govt can do same but general do not like that but he wants to talk and solve problems. Question is are people read to give 2 years to president till he clean up maess and then we can have Farce of election. People should now help govt to bring stability.
In given situation where many ( hundreds) have died in less than week including soldiers and luckly chinese engineers survived from attack near Karachi (hub) elections will lead to more termoil and secterian violence and large crowds means easy target for terrorists who want to damage pakistan will be better to be called of for immediate future say 2 years. When things improve elections can take place even earlier. There are lots of foreign powers who want to weaken president such as India, usa, UK, Britain, Canada, Australia and Isarel only China is standing by pakistan and putting its citizen in danger to complete projects they have started. From time of "CJ" trouble Indian activity by their diplomats is getting brisk as well as in border area with A.Stan. In such situation even our friend such as S.Arabia, USA, China, UAE and IRan as suggesting postponeent of elections. Let us hope this election fever goes down and things return to normal. Everybody is sad for deaths in Mosque but what was left for general to do. Whatever he does people criticize them. Some time violence goes up when such things happen but things cool down if leaders behave properly. When Mr. Bugti Sr was killed in fight for few days violence peaked but not gas pipelines, electic towers, railway are working properly and "B.Stan" problem is in control. If people give chance to president for next 2 years he can beat terrorist in their game. If terrorist feel they want to use terror tactics then govt can do same but general do not like that but he wants to talk and solve problems. Question is are people read to give 2 years to president till he clean up maess and then we can have Farce of election. People should now help govt to bring stability.
#960 Posted by philosopher on July 19, 2007 3:39:03 pm
US military action possible inside Pakistan: US
WASHINGTON: The White House on Thursday refused to rule out striking at suspected terrorist targets inside Pakistan and would not say whether US forces would first seek permission from Islamabad.
Asked whether US President George W Bush had ruled out US military action inside Pakistan, spokesman Tony Snow replied: 'We never rule out any options, including striking actionable targets.'
Asked whether Bush would first seek authorization from Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf, Snow told reporters, 'Those are matters that are best not discussed publicly.'
Washington in recent days has sharply criticized Musharraf's truce with leaders in Pakistan's tribal areas, where Al-Qaeda and Taliban militants were believed hiding, calling on him to take aggressive military action.
And Bush's top counter-terrorism adviser at the White House recently suggested that the United States did not get all of the cooperation it hoped for from Pakistan in the global war on terrorism.
At the same time, the White House has been praising Musharraf personally.
'President Musharraf has put his life on the line and has been a very important ally in the war on terror,' Snow said as Bush travelled here to make remarks on the federal budget.
'It's also clear that Taliban and al Qaeda, in the northwest territories and the federally administered tribal areas, have begun to put on operations that threaten the government of Pakistan itself,' he added.
'President Musharraf, having tried one approach, in terms of dealing with the tribal leaders, is now going to have to be more aggressive and is being more aggressive moving forces into the region to deal with the security problems there,' he said.
WASHINGTON: The White House on Thursday refused to rule out striking at suspected terrorist targets inside Pakistan and would not say whether US forces would first seek permission from Islamabad.
Asked whether US President George W Bush had ruled out US military action inside Pakistan, spokesman Tony Snow replied: 'We never rule out any options, including striking actionable targets.'
Asked whether Bush would first seek authorization from Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf, Snow told reporters, 'Those are matters that are best not discussed publicly.'
Washington in recent days has sharply criticized Musharraf's truce with leaders in Pakistan's tribal areas, where Al-Qaeda and Taliban militants were believed hiding, calling on him to take aggressive military action.
And Bush's top counter-terrorism adviser at the White House recently suggested that the United States did not get all of the cooperation it hoped for from Pakistan in the global war on terrorism.
At the same time, the White House has been praising Musharraf personally.
'President Musharraf has put his life on the line and has been a very important ally in the war on terror,' Snow said as Bush travelled here to make remarks on the federal budget.
'It's also clear that Taliban and al Qaeda, in the northwest territories and the federally administered tribal areas, have begun to put on operations that threaten the government of Pakistan itself,' he added.
'President Musharraf, having tried one approach, in terms of dealing with the tribal leaders, is now going to have to be more aggressive and is being more aggressive moving forces into the region to deal with the security problems there,' he said.
#958 Posted by zeemax on July 19, 2007 3:00:49 pm
#956 Posted by echoboom,
"Sultaani-e-Jamhoor kaa aataa hai zamaana
Jo naqsh-i-kuh'n tuum ko nazar aaey..mitaa doa!".
............................................ ALLAMA Iqbal
I don't know how far ahead Iqbal saw, and how, and what remains to be seen of his vision.
You were right. He was touched by Gabriel's wing.
But there will be a lot of bloodshed. I wonder if it could have been avoided. Or was it fate?
"Sultaani-e-Jamhoor kaa aataa hai zamaana
Jo naqsh-i-kuh'n tuum ko nazar aaey..mitaa doa!".
............................................ ALLAMA Iqbal
I don't know how far ahead Iqbal saw, and how, and what remains to be seen of his vision.
You were right. He was touched by Gabriel's wing.
But there will be a lot of bloodshed. I wonder if it could have been avoided. Or was it fate?
#957 Posted by zeemax on July 19, 2007 12:55:51 pm
#955 Posted by Urstruly,
Urstruly, it saddens me to no end. I actually have close, learned, intellectual friends who had said Lal Masjid issue will be finished in 72 hours when their refrigeration runs out ... while they were eating tree leaves in there for a week.
They didn't even have a clue of what it was all about ....
Urstruly, it saddens me to no end. I actually have close, learned, intellectual friends who had said Lal Masjid issue will be finished in 72 hours when their refrigeration runs out ... while they were eating tree leaves in there for a week.
They didn't even have a clue of what it was all about ....
#956 Posted by echoboom on July 19, 2007 12:47:43 pm
SECULARO! mard-i-mujaahid sey naa Uuljhho..DaikhO!
Haath mazloom kaa shamsheer tak aa pohnchaa hai
The"elite", the good-life-charlies' time has come. These were the Haraamis who either co-operated with the British or were upset at the Freedom fighters for disturbing their hollowed-our, termite-eaten, aristocracy.
No wonder we are ruled by Uniformed Kuttaaas and un-informed
burRvayCats.
A revolution is an eartquake, it turns things upside down. The servants son shall be your master and your son will polish his shoes. The Ba Ba Blacksheep must be shorn of their wool and for a change must know what winters are like. The toataa-mainaas must be let out of their air-conditioned suites & trained anew to make do with crumbs.
Every servant farmer labourer must be encouraged to turn on against their westoxicated huDD-haraam corrupt masters.
"Sultaani-e-Jamhoor kaa aataa hai zamaana
Jo naqsh-i-kuh'n tuum ko nazar aaey..mitaa doa!".
............................................ ALLAMA Iqbal
tr:
The time when People themselves shall rule..has come
Wherever you see any sign of the old-order..erase it!
Haath mazloom kaa shamsheer tak aa pohnchaa hai
The"elite", the good-life-charlies' time has come. These were the Haraamis who either co-operated with the British or were upset at the Freedom fighters for disturbing their hollowed-our, termite-eaten, aristocracy.
No wonder we are ruled by Uniformed Kuttaaas and un-informed
burRvayCats.
A revolution is an eartquake, it turns things upside down. The servants son shall be your master and your son will polish his shoes. The Ba Ba Blacksheep must be shorn of their wool and for a change must know what winters are like. The toataa-mainaas must be let out of their air-conditioned suites & trained anew to make do with crumbs.
Every servant farmer labourer must be encouraged to turn on against their westoxicated huDD-haraam corrupt masters.
"Sultaani-e-Jamhoor kaa aataa hai zamaana
Jo naqsh-i-kuh'n tuum ko nazar aaey..mitaa doa!".
............................................ ALLAMA Iqbal
tr:
The time when People themselves shall rule..has come
Wherever you see any sign of the old-order..erase it!
#955 Posted by Urstruly on July 19, 2007 12:03:58 pm
Re: # 954
It is horrible that Na-Pak fouj's personnel all over Pakistan had been ordered not to wear uniform in public. It also seems like a separate force will be required to protect police from people now. I think these madarchod munafiq intellectuals did not learn any leasson from Iraq where ordinary people of Iraq have made monkeys out of the collosal war machinery of the West; same thing in Afghanistan. I don't know what the fuck they were thinking when they carried out the school masacre in Islamabad. How did they contemplate that the results would be any different from Iraq and Afghanistan.
It is horrible that Na-Pak fouj's personnel all over Pakistan had been ordered not to wear uniform in public. It also seems like a separate force will be required to protect police from people now. I think these madarchod munafiq intellectuals did not learn any leasson from Iraq where ordinary people of Iraq have made monkeys out of the collosal war machinery of the West; same thing in Afghanistan. I don't know what the fuck they were thinking when they carried out the school masacre in Islamabad. How did they contemplate that the results would be any different from Iraq and Afghanistan.
#954 Posted by zeemax on July 19, 2007 11:23:30 am
The Fedayeen march is on towards settled areas. Those bastards and westoxicated intellectuals who didn't believe me when I said if they touch a single burqa-clad, they will be slaughtered. In the end these bastards ended up killing over a thousand of them.
Now, they will not spare ANYONE who supported that action.
Now, they will not spare ANYONE who supported that action.
#953 Posted by jang on July 19, 2007 11:14:06 am
#952 ok...let me rephrase. so if you idolate, but otherwise lead a fruitful life, maybe hold a day-job, and invent cure for cancer, then what is bad? also, is belief in god also wrong? if an idol is not "truth" what about the god guy? then offcourse there are all the beliefs in messages etc..is believing in them also unnatural?
#952 Posted by masadi on July 19, 2007 10:50:19 am
Jang writes "masadi,
can you esplane what is so wrong with idolatory? "
Yes I can explain it, it is an outrage against truth and fact. If you do not align yourself with the fact and the truth out there, your entire life is spent chasing a lie, your development is stunted, in other words your lifestyle is unnatural
Zeemax "power grab"
It does not reflect too well on the community of believers if dissent on the control of a community results moments after the death of the messenger so much that his final rites were not even completed. If that is what happened it sure could have been handled better by the "elders". It is far from the "best example" you were presenting it as...
can you esplane what is so wrong with idolatory? "
Yes I can explain it, it is an outrage against truth and fact. If you do not align yourself with the fact and the truth out there, your entire life is spent chasing a lie, your development is stunted, in other words your lifestyle is unnatural
Zeemax "power grab"
It does not reflect too well on the community of believers if dissent on the control of a community results moments after the death of the messenger so much that his final rites were not even completed. If that is what happened it sure could have been handled better by the "elders". It is far from the "best example" you were presenting it as...
#951 Posted by echoboom on July 19, 2007 8:49:54 am
MaashaAllah!
Time to drag the Ata-SECULARROON out of his slumber & do a Mussolini on him. The bastard freemason, enemy of scholars of Islam: the mullahs, Muslims & Islam.
This could not be more timely for Pakistan. The Koochak-i-SECULAROON , the Parvaaz-i Murtaddon, will InshaAllah, soon die, what else, a dogs death.
___________________________________________________________
Turkish ruling party looks set for big election win
Thu 19 Jul 2007, 13:56 GMT
By Paul de Bendern
ANKARA (Reuters) - Turkey's ruling Islamist-rooted AK Party looks on course to win enough votes on Sunday to govern alone again in an election that has divided the country over religion's role in a secular state.
An opinion poll published on Thursday showed them winning 42.6 percent and only two other parties entering parliament -- the main opposition centre-left Republican People's Party with 17.3 percent and the far-right Nationalist Movement Party on 12.5 percent.
"It's clear sailing. Even (Prime Minister Tayyip) Erdogan has gone out on a limb saying he'll resign if his party doesn't return as a single-party government," Semih Idiz, a leading Turkish commentator, told Reuters.
Turkish stocks and bond prices rose and the lira firmed after the survey by the Konda polling agency and two other polls reinforced expectations the AK Party was set for another landslide victory.
Investors like the party's free-market policies but fear too large a majority could reignite tensions with the secularists, including a powerful army suspicious of AK Party intentions.
The armed forces have removed four governments in the past 50 years, including an Islamist government as recently as 1997.
A divided Turkey now faces a choice -- the pro-business centre-right AK Party with a background in political Islam, or its opponents determined to keep decades-old secular principles.
Earlier this year during a crisis over the presidential election the military pledged to intervene in politics if Turkey's secular principles were threatened. A series of mass anti-AK Party rallies also increased tensions.
The Konda survey gave the AK Party a share of the vote several percentage points higher than in 2002, though due to a more unified opposition this would give them 310 to 340 seats in the 550-member parliament -- down from 352 now.
PRESIDENT ROW
Most recent polls show the same three parties clearing the 10 percent national threshold for winning seats in parliament. Up to 35 independents, mostly pro-Kurdish candidates, are also likely to enter the new parliament, the latest poll said.
Erdogan's AK Party has presided over nearly five years of strong economic growth, falling inflation and the historic launch of now floundering European Union membership talks.
His party is seeking to portray itself as moderate and centrist, but is deeply distrusted by the elite, including powerful army generals and top judges, for its Islamist roots and efforts to ease restrictions on Islam such as a ban on women wearing headscarves at universities and state institutions.
Erdogan was forced to call the parliamentary election months early after a clash with the secular elite over his party's choice of presidential candidate, Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul, like him an ex-Islamist and whose wife also wears a headscarf.
The AK Party still prefers Gul as the next president.
Critically for the secularists -- and for financial markets closely watching the election -- the latest poll shows the AK Party still falling short of a two-thirds majority needed to impose its own presidential candidate or alter the constitution.
Analysts expect renewed political tensions when parliament reconvenes to appoint a new president. The president carries great symbolic weight in Turkey because the post was first held by the founder of the republic, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk.
Outgoing secularist President Ahmet Necdet Sezer has been a fierce critic of Erdogan and frequently blocked legislation.
The opposition accuses the ruling party of seeking to turn Turkey into an Iranian-style system, a charge it denies. However, many AK Party supporters hope a second term will bring reforms to make life easier for devout Muslim Turks.
"If they get around 40 percent then it will be a validation of sorts, especially after millions took to the streets to protest in defence of secularism and against the AK Party, and the opposition didn't get into power," said commentator Idiz.
(Additional reporting by Gareth Jones in Ankara)
Time to drag the Ata-SECULARROON out of his slumber & do a Mussolini on him. The bastard freemason, enemy of scholars of Islam: the mullahs, Muslims & Islam.
This could not be more timely for Pakistan. The Koochak-i-SECULAROON , the Parvaaz-i Murtaddon, will InshaAllah, soon die, what else, a dogs death.
___________________________________________________________
Turkish ruling party looks set for big election win
Thu 19 Jul 2007, 13:56 GMT
By Paul de Bendern
ANKARA (Reuters) - Turkey's ruling Islamist-rooted AK Party looks on course to win enough votes on Sunday to govern alone again in an election that has divided the country over religion's role in a secular state.
An opinion poll published on Thursday showed them winning 42.6 percent and only two other parties entering parliament -- the main opposition centre-left Republican People's Party with 17.3 percent and the far-right Nationalist Movement Party on 12.5 percent.
"It's clear sailing. Even (Prime Minister Tayyip) Erdogan has gone out on a limb saying he'll resign if his party doesn't return as a single-party government," Semih Idiz, a leading Turkish commentator, told Reuters.
Turkish stocks and bond prices rose and the lira firmed after the survey by the Konda polling agency and two other polls reinforced expectations the AK Party was set for another landslide victory.
Investors like the party's free-market policies but fear too large a majority could reignite tensions with the secularists, including a powerful army suspicious of AK Party intentions.
The armed forces have removed four governments in the past 50 years, including an Islamist government as recently as 1997.
A divided Turkey now faces a choice -- the pro-business centre-right AK Party with a background in political Islam, or its opponents determined to keep decades-old secular principles.
Earlier this year during a crisis over the presidential election the military pledged to intervene in politics if Turkey's secular principles were threatened. A series of mass anti-AK Party rallies also increased tensions.
The Konda survey gave the AK Party a share of the vote several percentage points higher than in 2002, though due to a more unified opposition this would give them 310 to 340 seats in the 550-member parliament -- down from 352 now.
PRESIDENT ROW
Most recent polls show the same three parties clearing the 10 percent national threshold for winning seats in parliament. Up to 35 independents, mostly pro-Kurdish candidates, are also likely to enter the new parliament, the latest poll said.
Erdogan's AK Party has presided over nearly five years of strong economic growth, falling inflation and the historic launch of now floundering European Union membership talks.
His party is seeking to portray itself as moderate and centrist, but is deeply distrusted by the elite, including powerful army generals and top judges, for its Islamist roots and efforts to ease restrictions on Islam such as a ban on women wearing headscarves at universities and state institutions.
Erdogan was forced to call the parliamentary election months early after a clash with the secular elite over his party's choice of presidential candidate, Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul, like him an ex-Islamist and whose wife also wears a headscarf.
The AK Party still prefers Gul as the next president.
Critically for the secularists -- and for financial markets closely watching the election -- the latest poll shows the AK Party still falling short of a two-thirds majority needed to impose its own presidential candidate or alter the constitution.
Analysts expect renewed political tensions when parliament reconvenes to appoint a new president. The president carries great symbolic weight in Turkey because the post was first held by the founder of the republic, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk.
Outgoing secularist President Ahmet Necdet Sezer has been a fierce critic of Erdogan and frequently blocked legislation.
The opposition accuses the ruling party of seeking to turn Turkey into an Iranian-style system, a charge it denies. However, many AK Party supporters hope a second term will bring reforms to make life easier for devout Muslim Turks.
"If they get around 40 percent then it will be a validation of sorts, especially after millions took to the streets to protest in defence of secularism and against the AK Party, and the opposition didn't get into power," said commentator Idiz.
(Additional reporting by Gareth Jones in Ankara)
#950 Posted by jang on July 19, 2007 8:48:17 am
masadi,
can you esplane what is so wrong with idolatory? and if the massage and the massager were both so important, why did lal masjidis become upset with the chinese massager? does it have something to do with the final massage concept that the chinese massager were abducted?
can you esplane what is so wrong with idolatory? and if the massage and the massager were both so important, why did lal masjidis become upset with the chinese massager? does it have something to do with the final massage concept that the chinese massager were abducted?
#949 Posted by echoboom on July 19, 2007 7:49:28 am
Khaak-i-beemar:
Even if grammatically you were wrong , still saqam means anomaly in arabic...there is no connection or sense.
In farsi grammar this anomaly is called shut'r-gurba ( combining two words of different languages & creating confusion)
Even if grammatically you were wrong , still saqam means anomaly in arabic...there is no connection or sense.
In farsi grammar this anomaly is called shut'r-gurba ( combining two words of different languages & creating confusion)
#948 Posted by Raw_Dust on July 19, 2007 6:59:08 am
I was going the Arabic way. khaak e Beemari was such a travesty. I had to. I'd expected the torch bearer of mashriqiyat (whatever that means) on here, to know the civilized way of cussing out. What's that verse on Allah putting a seal on hearts and minds of the ones He Willed to go astray from the True path. Now, that's a killer. A real one.
#947 Posted by echoboom on July 19, 2007 6:41:26 am
946:Khaak-i-beemaar
..."I figure, someone should get...."
_________________________________________________________
that "someone" word should get you off the hook...Haaa Haaa Haa
1. KhAAK AND SAQAM cannot be joined as a tarkeeb
2. Saqam does not even come close in meaning to what you are implying.
3. I checked the farhanG already
unless of course you do have an insider :)))...I'm never too old to learn.
..."I figure, someone should get...."
_________________________________________________________
that "someone" word should get you off the hook...Haaa Haaa Haa
1. KhAAK AND SAQAM cannot be joined as a tarkeeb
2. Saqam does not even come close in meaning to what you are implying.
3. I checked the farhanG already
unless of course you do have an insider :)))...I'm never too old to learn.
#946 Posted by Raw_Dust on July 19, 2007 6:23:50 am
echoboom: "khaak e beemari" hahaha. Hazrat, that would be khaak-e-saqam to khaak-e-shifa in Urdu proper. I figure, someone should get into a Taleem-e-BaalighaaN/Adult Ed. for an Urdu-e-Mua'lla program at a nearby Madrassah or maybe it's too already late for that. I dunno.
#945 Posted by Chennai on July 19, 2007 6:04:45 am
#944 Posted by arjun2
It looks like Land of the Pure is getting ready for the final purification rites....Courtesy Uncle Sam who has pumped in 5 Billion $ and wants results..now..
It looks like Land of the Pure is getting ready for the final purification rites....Courtesy Uncle Sam who has pumped in 5 Billion $ and wants results..now..
#944 Posted by arjun2 on July 19, 2007 4:33:58 am
what's going in in the land of allah's chosen people? 36 dead in a suicide bombing...America getting ready to clean up the jihadi rathole all by itself..
#943 Posted by zeemax on July 19, 2007 2:05:22 am
#941 Posted by masadi,
...which in this case happens to be a "power grab".
What power grab? There would just have been TWO powers instead of one if the matter had gone unattended. One of Quraish and the other of Ansaars, and TWO Caliphs, one of each. Everyone would have gone home happy.
It was to prevent a split, and not to grab any power because each already had their own power.
...which in this case happens to be a "power grab".
What power grab? There would just have been TWO powers instead of one if the matter had gone unattended. One of Quraish and the other of Ansaars, and TWO Caliphs, one of each. Everyone would have gone home happy.
It was to prevent a split, and not to grab any power because each already had their own power.
#942 Posted by zeemax on July 19, 2007 1:59:23 am
#941#935 Posted by masadi,
Yaar masadi bhai, aap ki baat smajh sey bahar hai.
Mian, the 'message' had been completed. The 'messenger' was dead. Nothing more was to descend via him. It was vital at that time to preserve the 'completed' message and not have dissention in the ranks. Therefore they delayed the burial and attended to fire-fighting instead. Read the complete account/speeches of that particular incident.
Beher haal ..
(P.S. Thanks for adding 'fool' to the various acronyms you have blessed me with ... :)
Yaar masadi bhai, aap ki baat smajh sey bahar hai.
Mian, the 'message' had been completed. The 'messenger' was dead. Nothing more was to descend via him. It was vital at that time to preserve the 'completed' message and not have dissention in the ranks. Therefore they delayed the burial and attended to fire-fighting instead. Read the complete account/speeches of that particular incident.
Beher haal ..
(P.S. Thanks for adding 'fool' to the various acronyms you have blessed me with ... :)
#941 Posted by masadi on July 19, 2007 1:36:23 am
PM, I was talking about GEO, why I think that it is the CIA medial outpost in Pakistan is listed in previous interacts.
Regarding idolatory, anyone who associates another with Allah is an idolator. If you consider the words of humans to be of greater authority than the words of Allah, you're an idolator. Regarding the messenger, I didn't say the message is the messenger, the Book can be a messenger but the messenger is the one who conveys the message. The prophet was dead, according to that discription, but leaving the dead body as it was and rushing out to other tasks amounts to rushing out and neglecting the prophet at that moment, i.e not seeking his leave. Consider how it would appear if your father had died was lying out in the open ready for burial and you run off to tend to other works, which in this case happens to be a "power grab".
Regarding idolatory, anyone who associates another with Allah is an idolator. If you consider the words of humans to be of greater authority than the words of Allah, you're an idolator. Regarding the messenger, I didn't say the message is the messenger, the Book can be a messenger but the messenger is the one who conveys the message. The prophet was dead, according to that discription, but leaving the dead body as it was and rushing out to other tasks amounts to rushing out and neglecting the prophet at that moment, i.e not seeking his leave. Consider how it would appear if your father had died was lying out in the open ready for burial and you run off to tend to other works, which in this case happens to be a "power grab".
#940 Posted by krishna_abcd on July 19, 2007 1:28:07 am
Hey masadi, I just found out that some of the top nuclear physicists have realized that the koran contains the "Theory or Everything" in coded form. Apparently some flying djinn provided them this info.
But you knew this already.
But you knew this already.
#939 Posted by zeemax on July 19, 2007 1:07:28 am
#934 Posted by PM,
PM, the attack was not on the CJ, though everyone is now trying to make political capital out of it. The attack was on PPP. CJ was not in the premises and had the bomber waited half an hour (it was indeed a bomber and not a timed device as lawyers are claiming), he would have got CJ's motorcade. He didn't. He blew up PPP's reception counter. Of-course you know these things are planned and timed with precision.
PM, the attack was not on the CJ, though everyone is now trying to make political capital out of it. The attack was on PPP. CJ was not in the premises and had the bomber waited half an hour (it was indeed a bomber and not a timed device as lawyers are claiming), he would have got CJ's motorcade. He didn't. He blew up PPP's reception counter. Of-course you know these things are planned and timed with precision.
#938 Posted by zeemax on July 19, 2007 1:01:32 am
#931 Posted by PM re. Zee 914:
My point was that, in the absence of incentives in a hereafter, non-believers would be inclined to "think deeper" about whether their cause is better caused by living to fight another day, or by a quick 'martyrdom'. Do you disagree?
Whether their cause is better served by living to fight another day, or by a quick 'martyrdom' depends on the peculiar circumstances of a battle, and that is the choice the warriors are confronted with and one they have to decide.
In case of Jamia Hafsa, it is my opinion that they decided on both choices in equal proportions. Approx half came out to fight another day, and half chose martyrdom to become a symbol of the movement and a rallying cry. That seems like a sound strategy to me under the circumstances.
If all had been killed or all had surrendered, their message would have been significantly weakened. In the first scenario, they would have been declared terrorists and/or renegades and/or cultists with no-one to tell or carry forward the true story. In the second scenario, they would have been painted as cowards having been 'smoked' out.
My point was that, in the absence of incentives in a hereafter, non-believers would be inclined to "think deeper" about whether their cause is better caused by living to fight another day, or by a quick 'martyrdom'. Do you disagree?
Whether their cause is better served by living to fight another day, or by a quick 'martyrdom' depends on the peculiar circumstances of a battle, and that is the choice the warriors are confronted with and one they have to decide.
In case of Jamia Hafsa, it is my opinion that they decided on both choices in equal proportions. Approx half came out to fight another day, and half chose martyrdom to become a symbol of the movement and a rallying cry. That seems like a sound strategy to me under the circumstances.
If all had been killed or all had surrendered, their message would have been significantly weakened. In the first scenario, they would have been declared terrorists and/or renegades and/or cultists with no-one to tell or carry forward the true story. In the second scenario, they would have been painted as cowards having been 'smoked' out.
#937 Posted by PM on July 19, 2007 1:00:53 am
re. masadi #936
"Note here that this is why I consider Zeemax an idolator. He sees the decision and works of men as being "better" to the words of Allah in the Quran. In fact the Quran talks specifically to believers not to rush out from the presence of the messenger without seeking his leave, "seeking the chance goods of the world". This behavior which he has attributed to the sahaba goes completely contrary to those statements of the Quran,"
Yaar masadi, sometimes you surprise me with your uneasonableness. Wasn't the Messenger already dead at this point when the sahaba left to put out the fire at the Ansaar meeting place? As per your own elucidation, the Rasool is actaully the message, not the person. Can there be a message embodied in a dead Messenger???
Idolator is a strong word. Humans are suspect to blurring the line between message and messenger. That doesn't make them bad, except when the message is relegated or obscured.
I'm outta here... be back in about 12 hrs.
"Note here that this is why I consider Zeemax an idolator. He sees the decision and works of men as being "better" to the words of Allah in the Quran. In fact the Quran talks specifically to believers not to rush out from the presence of the messenger without seeking his leave, "seeking the chance goods of the world". This behavior which he has attributed to the sahaba goes completely contrary to those statements of the Quran,"
Yaar masadi, sometimes you surprise me with your uneasonableness. Wasn't the Messenger already dead at this point when the sahaba left to put out the fire at the Ansaar meeting place? As per your own elucidation, the Rasool is actaully the message, not the person. Can there be a message embodied in a dead Messenger???
Idolator is a strong word. Humans are suspect to blurring the line between message and messenger. That doesn't make them bad, except when the message is relegated or obscured.
I'm outta here... be back in about 12 hrs.
#936 Posted by PM on July 19, 2007 12:51:26 am
waisaey, masadi, you claimed a while ago that Hamid Mir was an American agent. Are you still of that opinion. What are the reasons you say that?
#935 Posted by masadi on July 19, 2007 12:47:34 am
Zeemax writes "I cannot come up with a better set of rules than when Muhammad's body was lying unburied, and the Quraish had gathered in the Masjid-e-Nabvi awaiting the next Caliph's appointment, and word reached that the Ansaar were preparing to name their own Caliph ... Abu Bakr, Umar and Abu Ubaida had rushed to the Ansaar's meeting place leaving everything aside. If they hadn't done that, Islam would be dead at Muhammad's death. There would have been civil war"
Note here that this is why I consider Zeemax an idolator. He sees the decision and works of men as being "better" to the words of Allah in the Quran. In fact the Quran talks specifically to believers not to rush out from the presence of the messenger without seeking his leave, "seeking the chance goods of the world". This behavior which he has attributed to the sahaba goes completely contrary to those statements of the Quran, and rightly so the Shias have accused them of power grab- whether they did that or not is up for debate. Nevertheless Islam was not saved by people, it was distorted by people. Allah has established his system both in the heavens and on earth, mankind rejects it does not mean it is finished or destroyed, never has it been destroyed, not before the prophet(when it certainly existed, read the Quran fool), not after the prophet either...
Note here that this is why I consider Zeemax an idolator. He sees the decision and works of men as being "better" to the words of Allah in the Quran. In fact the Quran talks specifically to believers not to rush out from the presence of the messenger without seeking his leave, "seeking the chance goods of the world". This behavior which he has attributed to the sahaba goes completely contrary to those statements of the Quran, and rightly so the Shias have accused them of power grab- whether they did that or not is up for debate. Nevertheless Islam was not saved by people, it was distorted by people. Allah has established his system both in the heavens and on earth, mankind rejects it does not mean it is finished or destroyed, never has it been destroyed, not before the prophet(when it certainly existed, read the Quran fool), not after the prophet either...
#934 Posted by PM on July 19, 2007 12:45:12 am
re. #925 Zeemax:
Zee, I got down the page and read the first half of the article (my urdu reading is s-l-o-w, having not read much since FSC days).
Khair, I agree with Mir's basic thesis, that there is a disconnect between the two parties to the conflict, though I don't care much for his labelling the Mushy-supporters as 'roshan khayaaloN"-- many of them are anything BUT!
An aside... was watching his program on GEO an hour ago... he had a judge and a PPP spokesperson on... interestingly, both seemed to suggest that the attack on the PPP welcoming camp was most likely NOT a suicide bombing, and that the target was quite possibly the CJ himself, who, had things gone according to schedule, would have probably been present at the very site of the blast when it took place... So you know where the finger is being pointed... interesting...
Zee, I got down the page and read the first half of the article (my urdu reading is s-l-o-w, having not read much since FSC days).
Khair, I agree with Mir's basic thesis, that there is a disconnect between the two parties to the conflict, though I don't care much for his labelling the Mushy-supporters as 'roshan khayaaloN"-- many of them are anything BUT!
An aside... was watching his program on GEO an hour ago... he had a judge and a PPP spokesperson on... interestingly, both seemed to suggest that the attack on the PPP welcoming camp was most likely NOT a suicide bombing, and that the target was quite possibly the CJ himself, who, had things gone according to schedule, would have probably been present at the very site of the blast when it took place... So you know where the finger is being pointed... interesting...
#933 Posted by zeemax on July 19, 2007 12:43:50 am
#931 Posted by PM,
Here is the link. It is by Hamid Mir. It is about the e-mail he received from Iman Yousuf, a girl-student of an English Medium School near the Chineses massage parlour, who was the one who complained to Ghazi about the parlour's activities. It also gives the contents of an SMS from a surviving girl who was pursuaded by Umme-Hassaan to leave on 6th July.
http://ejang.jang.com.pk/jm/7-19-2007/images/05_05.gif
(You may have to log in, but try.)
Here is the link. It is by Hamid Mir. It is about the e-mail he received from Iman Yousuf, a girl-student of an English Medium School near the Chineses massage parlour, who was the one who complained to Ghazi about the parlour's activities. It also gives the contents of an SMS from a surviving girl who was pursuaded by Umme-Hassaan to leave on 6th July.
http://ejang.jang.com.pk/jm/7-19-2007/images/05_05.gif
(You may have to log in, but try.)
#932 Posted by masadi on July 19, 2007 12:41:37 am
Zeemax writes "I don't thing masadi is a Muslim BTW. I have come to believe he's waiting for some Mehdi like our friend 'Number' here. "
What you think is immaterial, what Allah thinks regarding my Islam is what matters. Btw I think you're a total idolator, who uses Islamic slogans while having little to no knowledge of what its all about. Also I don't believe in the Mahdi concept, its extra-Quranic through and through, manufactured hadith believers like yourself, are the ones who have borrowed that from Christianity and Judaism and tried to force it unto Islam through the hadith factory...
What you think is immaterial, what Allah thinks regarding my Islam is what matters. Btw I think you're a total idolator, who uses Islamic slogans while having little to no knowledge of what its all about. Also I don't believe in the Mahdi concept, its extra-Quranic through and through, manufactured hadith believers like yourself, are the ones who have borrowed that from Christianity and Judaism and tried to force it unto Islam through the hadith factory...
#931 Posted by PM on July 19, 2007 12:18:03 am
re. Zee 914:
"Whether it is worth it or not, that is the question. To Muslims, it is worth it. To you it isn't. And that's the mental block I was referring to in #910. "
Zee, bhai, I wasn't suggesting that I necessarily disagreed with those Muslims ready to give their lives at the drop of the hat. My point was that, in the absence of incentives in a hereafter, non-believers would be inclined to "think deeper" about whether their cause is better caused by living to fight another day, or by a quick 'martyrdom'.
Do you disagree?
re. #925: Translation? Of what? Was/Is there an Urdu article attached to the your post? I cancel the page download the moment the first posts appear on my screen, since I'm paying per unit of download, and can really do without the whole 900 interacts, along with pics, to come down. Please post the link to the article if there is one.
"Whether it is worth it or not, that is the question. To Muslims, it is worth it. To you it isn't. And that's the mental block I was referring to in #910. "
Zee, bhai, I wasn't suggesting that I necessarily disagreed with those Muslims ready to give their lives at the drop of the hat. My point was that, in the absence of incentives in a hereafter, non-believers would be inclined to "think deeper" about whether their cause is better caused by living to fight another day, or by a quick 'martyrdom'.
Do you disagree?
re. #925: Translation? Of what? Was/Is there an Urdu article attached to the your post? I cancel the page download the moment the first posts appear on my screen, since I'm paying per unit of download, and can really do without the whole 900 interacts, along with pics, to come down. Please post the link to the article if there is one.
#930 Posted by krishna_abcd on July 19, 2007 12:14:33 am
#927 Posted by echoboom
[You are named after an Avtar who is highly respected among hindus.
Would it not be nice if you told us about some of his sermons from the Mahabharta?
The questions you have asked and the answers you seek are probably not to increase your wisdom or a desire to embrace Islam..Isn't that so? ]
You have NO good answers. Isn't that so?
[You are named after an Avtar who is highly respected among hindus.
Would it not be nice if you told us about some of his sermons from the Mahabharta?
The questions you have asked and the answers you seek are probably not to increase your wisdom or a desire to embrace Islam..Isn't that so? ]
You have NO good answers. Isn't that so?
#929 Posted by zeemax on July 19, 2007 12:02:52 am
#927 Posted by echoboom,
Why don't 'you' tell us about those sermons ... this should be fun ... :)
Why don't 'you' tell us about those sermons ... this should be fun ... :)
#928 Posted by zeemax on July 19, 2007 12:00:04 am
#921 Posted by echoboom
Certainly if the apostate is hostile toward the Muslims and joins the enemy in a war against them, or tries to corrupt the Muslims in the Muslim lands by trying to convert them to his/her new deviant religion, then the matter becomes different... Ask me any question.
Yes, I have a question:
Does hamidm2 fall in the above category or not???
If the answer is 'yes', then I stand vindicated on the subject. If it is no, I would like to know 'how' and 'what' are the mitigating circumstances in his case?
Certainly if the apostate is hostile toward the Muslims and joins the enemy in a war against them, or tries to corrupt the Muslims in the Muslim lands by trying to convert them to his/her new deviant religion, then the matter becomes different... Ask me any question.
Yes, I have a question:
Does hamidm2 fall in the above category or not???
If the answer is 'yes', then I stand vindicated on the subject. If it is no, I would like to know 'how' and 'what' are the mitigating circumstances in his case?
#927 Posted by echoboom on July 18, 2007 11:52:04 pm
Krishna-abcd:
You are named after an Avtar who is highly respected among hindus.
Would it not be nice if you told us about some of his sermons from the Mahabharta?
The questions you have asked and the answers you seek are probably not to increase your wisdom or a desire to embrace Islam..Isn't that so?
You are named after an Avtar who is highly respected among hindus.
Would it not be nice if you told us about some of his sermons from the Mahabharta?
The questions you have asked and the answers you seek are probably not to increase your wisdom or a desire to embrace Islam..Isn't that so?
#926 Posted by krishna_abcd on July 18, 2007 11:36:50 pm
#921 by echoboom
[Let us look at Noble Verse 3:72 "A section of the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) say: Believe in the morning what is revealed to the believers (Muslims), but reject it at the end of the day; perchance they may (themselves) turn back (from Islam)." To protect Islam from such Satanic attempts done by a group of the people of the book (Jews and Christians), Prophet Mohammed peace be upon him ordered the death of those who enter Islam and leave it. This temporary law that was put by our Prophet had stopped the hypocrites from the People of the Book who carried so much hatred toward Islam to enter Islam and desert it afterwards. ]
Yes. Hitler also wanted to kill the "treacherous" Jews for establishing HIS utopia.
[Ask me any question. ]
Okay. Ummm... is it true that mohammed proposed marriage to a little six-year-old child when he was past middle age with grey pubic hair?
[Essential Reading for all those participating here: reading or interacting.
Only then write/inter-act.]
Mohammed raped a woman the same day he murdered her father and brother (rape - forcing sex on someone unwiilling to have sex). That makes him a monster in everyone's book except for Muslims (who are supposed to be JUST LIKE everybody else).
WHY would ANYONE want to listen to someone like this guy? Especially when on top of all this, according to him, all the info he put down in the Koran was told to him by a winged creature in a cave?
eh?
[Let us look at Noble Verse 3:72 "A section of the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) say: Believe in the morning what is revealed to the believers (Muslims), but reject it at the end of the day; perchance they may (themselves) turn back (from Islam)." To protect Islam from such Satanic attempts done by a group of the people of the book (Jews and Christians), Prophet Mohammed peace be upon him ordered the death of those who enter Islam and leave it. This temporary law that was put by our Prophet had stopped the hypocrites from the People of the Book who carried so much hatred toward Islam to enter Islam and desert it afterwards. ]
Yes. Hitler also wanted to kill the "treacherous" Jews for establishing HIS utopia.
[Ask me any question. ]
Okay. Ummm... is it true that mohammed proposed marriage to a little six-year-old child when he was past middle age with grey pubic hair?
[Essential Reading for all those participating here: reading or interacting.
Only then write/inter-act.]
Mohammed raped a woman the same day he murdered her father and brother (rape - forcing sex on someone unwiilling to have sex). That makes him a monster in everyone's book except for Muslims (who are supposed to be JUST LIKE everybody else).
WHY would ANYONE want to listen to someone like this guy? Especially when on top of all this, according to him, all the info he put down in the Koran was told to him by a winged creature in a cave?
eh?
#925 Posted by zeemax on July 18, 2007 11:15:45 pm
PM, any comments?
(Don't suppose you will ned a translation)
(Don't suppose you will ned a translation)
#924 Posted by echoboom on July 18, 2007 9:34:06 pm
Re: # 923Snake:
(what a nic)
You have given a common sense reason & shed some beautiful light on this matter.
thaNKS.
chowk NESTING IS NO GOOD. Please go back to ten I/a p page & bring back sidebar.
(what a nic)
You have given a common sense reason & shed some beautiful light on this matter.
thaNKS.
chowk NESTING IS NO GOOD. Please go back to ten I/a p page & bring back sidebar.
#923 Posted by snake on July 18, 2007 9:19:44 pm
Re: # 921
the muslims who say the punishment for apostasy is death, cite hadiths to back them up - some say the hadiths have as much weight as the qur'an.
personally, i would think that in an important matter like death penalty, the qur'an would've addressed it.
the muslims who say the punishment for apostasy is death, cite hadiths to back them up - some say the hadiths have as much weight as the qur'an.
personally, i would think that in an important matter like death penalty, the qur'an would've addressed it.
#922 Posted by arjun2 on July 18, 2007 8:30:14 pm
zeemax: don't get too uppity or mushy will have you gazi'ed or do this to you..
Pakistani Wife Embodies Cause of ‘Disappeared’
By JANE PERLEZ
ISLAMABAD, Pakistan — Sitting in the sparsely furnished office of her missing husband, Amina Masood Janjua counted the calls on a recent day from Pakistanis who have suffered a fate similar to hers. More and more are coming forward, she says, to report that their husbands, brothers or sons have disappeared under the rule of Pakistan’s president, Gen. Pervez Musharraf.
“It used to be two cases every week,� she said. “Today, there were three. The numbers are incredible. I get cases when I’m driving. I have three diaries full of names.�
She and Pakistani human rights groups say that those who are missing have disappeared into the hands of Pakistan’s military and intelligence services since 2001. The total could be more than 400, they say.
While American intelligence officials say that General Musharraf has not done enough to crack down on militants in the country, human rights groups here assert that Pakistan’s security services have been sweeping up civilians and holding them incommunicado without charges since 9/11, when the government forged an alliance with the United States to fight terrorists.
They say the Bush administration has pushed the government to arrest people who are overtly religious or show an interest in radical Islamic thought. Most of the men who are reported missing wore full beards, a sign of religiosity.
The movement to free the missing men gathered momentum in October when Pakistan’s chief justice, Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry, decided to take up the cases. His boldness may have contributed to the decision by General Musharraf to suspend him on March 9.
But Mr. Chaudhry’s determination to challenge that decision by appealing to the Supreme Court and holding a series of rallies over the last few months has weakened the president and left other Pakistanis less fearful of standing up to the government. He has become the focus of a growing popular movement to restore civilian rule even as General Musharraf also comes under increasing pressure from radical Islamists.
That popular outpouring has given momentum to Defense of Human Rights, a group founded by Mrs. Janjua, and the nongovernmental Human Rights Commission of Pakistan, who are trying to locate and free the missing men.
Every two weeks in crowded sessions of the Supreme Court here, judges listen to the pleadings of women demanding to know the whereabouts of their husbands and sons and brothers, who they believe are locked up in government jails and safe houses.
Security officers, dressed in pressed khakis and black berets, are regularly dragged before the bench and asked to explain where the men — known here as the “disappeared� — are being held.
Pakistani Wife Embodies Cause of ‘Disappeared’
By JANE PERLEZ
ISLAMABAD, Pakistan — Sitting in the sparsely furnished office of her missing husband, Amina Masood Janjua counted the calls on a recent day from Pakistanis who have suffered a fate similar to hers. More and more are coming forward, she says, to report that their husbands, brothers or sons have disappeared under the rule of Pakistan’s president, Gen. Pervez Musharraf.
“It used to be two cases every week,� she said. “Today, there were three. The numbers are incredible. I get cases when I’m driving. I have three diaries full of names.�
She and Pakistani human rights groups say that those who are missing have disappeared into the hands of Pakistan’s military and intelligence services since 2001. The total could be more than 400, they say.
While American intelligence officials say that General Musharraf has not done enough to crack down on militants in the country, human rights groups here assert that Pakistan’s security services have been sweeping up civilians and holding them incommunicado without charges since 9/11, when the government forged an alliance with the United States to fight terrorists.
They say the Bush administration has pushed the government to arrest people who are overtly religious or show an interest in radical Islamic thought. Most of the men who are reported missing wore full beards, a sign of religiosity.
The movement to free the missing men gathered momentum in October when Pakistan’s chief justice, Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry, decided to take up the cases. His boldness may have contributed to the decision by General Musharraf to suspend him on March 9.
But Mr. Chaudhry’s determination to challenge that decision by appealing to the Supreme Court and holding a series of rallies over the last few months has weakened the president and left other Pakistanis less fearful of standing up to the government. He has become the focus of a growing popular movement to restore civilian rule even as General Musharraf also comes under increasing pressure from radical Islamists.
That popular outpouring has given momentum to Defense of Human Rights, a group founded by Mrs. Janjua, and the nongovernmental Human Rights Commission of Pakistan, who are trying to locate and free the missing men.
Every two weeks in crowded sessions of the Supreme Court here, judges listen to the pleadings of women demanding to know the whereabouts of their husbands and sons and brothers, who they believe are locked up in government jails and safe houses.
Security officers, dressed in pressed khakis and black berets, are regularly dragged before the bench and asked to explain where the men — known here as the “disappeared� — are being held.
#921 Posted by echoboom on July 18, 2007 4:52:59 pm
Heeeeeer'es Mullah Echoboom!
Essential Reading for all those participating here: reading or interacting.
Only then write/inter-act.
____________________________________________________________
Apostates: Should they be killed or saved?
The sections of this article are:
1- Who are the Apostates in Islam?
2- The absolute freedom of religion in Islam.
3- So how come Muslim Fundamentalists execute those who desert Islam then?
4- My rebuttal about the historical Muslims' battles with the Apostates.
5- Does Islam really mean to force someone to Islam or else kill him?
6- Conclusion.
Note: Some of the notes in this article were taken from the commentary of the Noble Quran translation of Abdullah Yusuf Ali; may Allah Almighty rest his soul. Ameen.
1- Who are the Apostates in Islam?
Apostates or Renegades are those who decide to leave the religion of Islam. There is a widely prevailing misconception about this issue. It is generally thought that the Holy Quran (The Muslims Holy Scripture) provides the death sentence for those who desert the religion of Islam. There is not the least ground for such a supposition. The Holy Quran speaks repeatedly of people going back to unbelief after believing, but never once does it say that they should be killed or punished. Although the Holy Quran does provide the death sentence for some situations such as putting a murderer to death, but it never provided death sentence or ordered the death of those who leave Islam.
Let us look at Noble Verse 2:217 "They ask thee (Mohammed) Concerning fighting In the Prohibited Month. Say: Fighting therein Is a grave (offence); but graver is it In the sight of Allah to prevent access to the path of Allah, to deny Him, to prevent access to the sacred Mosque, and drive out its members. Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you turn back from their faith (Islam) and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the hereafter; they will be companions of the fire and will abide therein." Here in this Holy Verse we see that Allah Almighty talks about those who leave Islam, and promises them punishment in the day of judgment. Allah Almighty doesn't order the death of those people.
Let also look at Noble Verse 5:54 "O ye who believe! If any from among you turn back from his faith, soon will Allah produce a people whom He (Allah) will love as they will love Him lowly with the believers, Mighty against the rejecters, fighting in the way of Allah, and never afraid of the reproachers of such as find fault. That is the Grace of Allah which He will bestow on whom He (Allah) pleaseth. And Allah encompasseth all, and He knoweth all things." Here in this Holy Verse we see again Allah Almighty strengthening the faith of the Muslims in Islam by assuring them that whenever they see Muslims leaving Islam they will also see those who join Islam with strong faith and love to Allah Almighty.
"As most men are rebellious." (5:49), it is inevitable that there should be apostates even from such a religion of reason and common-sense as Islam. In Verse 5:54 above there is a warning to the Muslims that they should not repeat the history of the Jews, and become so self-satisfied or arrogant as to depart from the spirit of Allah's teaching. If they do, the loss will be their own. Allah's bounty is not confined to one group or section of humanity. He can always raise up people who will follow the true spirit of Islam. That spirit is defined in two ways:
1- They will love Allah Almighty and Allah Almighty will love them.
2- Amongst the Brethren, their attitude will be that of humility, but to wrongdoers they will offer no compromises, and they will always strive and fight for the truth and right. They will know no fear, either physical, or that more insidious form. They are too great in mind to be haunted by any such thought.
Let us look at Noble Verse 5:55 "(O Muslims) Your (real) friends are (No less than) Allah, His Messenger, and the (Fellowship Of) Believers, those who establish regular prayers and regular charity, and they bow down humbly (in worship)." Here we see Allah Almighty telling Muslims after he warned them from apostates in (5:54) that their real friends are: Allah Almighty, Prophet Mohammed peace be upon him, and the good Muslims who keep up with their prayers and charity, and who humbly worship their God.
Let us look at Noble Verse 3:90 "But those who reject faith after they accepted it, and then go on adding to their defiance of faith never will their repentance be accepted; for they are those who have (of set purpose) gone astray." Here in this holy verse we see Allah Almighty rejecting the faith of those who keep coming back and forth to Islam. In order for a human being to accept Islam as his religion, he must be certain about it first. Allah Almighty's path is wide open, and his mercy is greater than this universe. This Holy Verse also does not order the death of those who leave Islam.
The path to Allah Almighty is always open and Allah Almighty will be your friend as in verse (5:55) above, and he will forgive your sins for you once you repent as in the following verse: "Except for those that repent (Even) after that, And make amends; for Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful." (3:89).
2- The absolute freedom of religion in Islam:
Some group of Muslims believe in killing apostates because they follow a Hadith (Saying) from Prophet Mohammed peace be upon him regarding the apostates. While Islam was weak and still growing among Jews, Christians and Pagans, Muslims did not have the full and complete religion that they needed. Some Jews and Christians wanted to take advantage of such situation to destroy Islam. They had a plan to adopt Islam first and then desert it, thus creating the impression that Islam was not a religion worth adopting.
Let us look at Noble Verse 3:72 "A section of the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) say: Believe in the morning what is revealed to the believers (Muslims), but reject it at the end of the day; perchance they may (themselves) turn back (from Islam)." To protect Islam from such Satanic attempts done by a group of the people of the book (Jews and Christians), Prophet Mohammed peace be upon him ordered the death of those who enter Islam and leave it. This temporary law that was put by our Prophet had stopped the hypocrites from the People of the Book who carried so much hatred toward Islam to enter Islam and desert it afterwards.
Allah Almighty ordered the Muslims to kill the pagans who fought against the Muslims. The following Noble Verse talks about all of the enemies who fought the Muslims long and bloody battles:
Let us look at Noble Verse 2:191 "And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith." The killing of the pagans who fought the Muslims during the time when Islam was not yet complete was essential.
Important Note: Noble Verse 2:191 above is not dedicated to the apostates as some Muslims use it to prove that the Noble Quran orders the killing of apostates. In fact, it doesn't even mention the apostates. It talks in general about slaying the pagans who declare wars on the Muslims. The pagans would obviously include the apostates who deserted Islam, but the Noble Verse certainly doesn't DIRECTLY order the killing of anyone who deserts Islam.
Allah Almighty promised that He will protect the Noble Quran from any corruption:
"We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly Guard it (from corruption). (The Noble Quran, 15:9)"
"Nay, this is a Glorious Quran, (inscribed) in a Tablet Preserved! (The Noble Quran, 85:21-22)"
Let us look at Noble Verse 5:3 ".....This day those who reject faith given up all hope of your religion: Yet fear them not But fear Me (Allah). This day have I (Allah) perfected your religion for you, completed my favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your (complete) religion....". So long as Islam was not organized, with its own community and its own laws, the unbelievers and the Hypocrites from the People of the Book and the Pagan Arabs had hoped to wean the believers from the new teaching. Now that hope is gone forever with the complete organization of Islam.
Let us look at Noble Verses 15:2-3 "Again and again will those who disbelieve, wish that they had bowed (to God's will) in Islam. Leave them alone, to enjoy (the good things of this life) and to please themselves: let (false) hope amuse them: soon will knowledge (undeceive them)."
Let us look at Noble Verses 10:99-100 "If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed, all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe! No soul can believe, except by the will of God, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand."
Let us look at Noble Verse 18:29 "Say, 'The truth is from your Lord': Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it): for the wrong doers We have prepared a Fire whose (smoke and flames), like the walls and roof of a tent, will hem them in: if they implore relief they will be granted water like melted brass, that will scald their faces, how dreadful the drink! How uncomfortable a couch to recline on!"
Let us look at Noble Verse 27:92 "And to rehearse the Qur'an: and if any accept guidance, they do it for the good of their own souls, and if any stray, say: 'I am only a Warner.'"
Let us look at Noble Verse 10:99 "If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe!" Allah Almighty doesn't like us to compel people into belief.
"No soul can believe, except by the will of God, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand. (The Noble Quran, 10:100)" Allah Almighty helps those whom He likes to be guided to His Straight Path. If anyone doesn't believe, or reverts back from Islam, it is then his loss and it is the Will of Allah Almighty.
"Say: 'Behold all that is in the heavens and on earth'; but neither Signs nor Warners profit those who believe not. Do they then expect (any thing) but (what happened in) the days of the men who passed away before them? Say: 'Wait ye then: for I, too, will wait with you.' (The Noble Quran, 10:101-102)" Notice how Allah Almighty orders us to say "Wait" to those who reject Islam. This clearly says that we can't force anyone into Islam, or punish anyone for leaving Islam.
Let us look at Noble Verse 10:108 "Say: 'O ye men! Now Truth hath reached you from your Lord! those who receive guidance, do so for the good of their own souls; those who stray, do so to their own loss: and I am not (set) over you to arrange your affairs.'" Whoever believes benefits his soul and whoever doesn't, harms it, and Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him is not in charge of people to arrange their affairs. Only Allah Almighty is.
"Say: 'Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger: but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message). (The Noble Quran, 24:54)" Prophet Muhammad's duty was only to preach.
"Those who pervert the Truth in Our Signs are not hidden from Us. Which is better? he that is cast into the Fire, or he that comes safe through, on the Day of Judgement? Do what ye will: Verily He seeth (clearly) all that ye do. (The Noble Quran, 41:40)" Here we clearly see Allah Almighty giving a freedom of choice for people to choose or refuse Islam.
"And those who take as protectors others besides Him - Allah doth watch over them; and thou art not the disposer of their affairs. (The Noble Quran, 42:6)" Again, Allah Almighty here told Prophet Muhammad that he has no authority over those who reject Islam.
"It is true thou wilt not be able to guide every one whom thou lovest; but Allah Guides those whom He will and He Knows those who receive guidance. (The Noble Quran, 28:56)" Again, no authority to Prophet Muhammad over those who accept or reject Islam.
Let us look at Noble Verse 2:256 "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things." The Holy Quran prohibits Muslims to force any person into Islam. Muslims must not let people resent Islam and Muslims. They must leave people decide for themselves because the "Truth stands out clear from error" (2:256).
Compulsion is incompatible with religion: Because (1) religion depends upon faith and will, and these would be meaningless by force; (2) Truth and Error have been so clearly shown up by the mercy of Allah Almighty that there should be no doubt in the minds of any persons of good will as to the fundamentals of faith; (3) Allah Almighty's protection is continuous, and His Plan is always to lead us from the depths of darkness into the clearest light.
The following was sent to me from "Vipor Poison"; may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him:
"I found another verse in the Quran that dealt with apostates. Noble Verse 4:137 "Those who believe, then reject faith, then believe (again) and (again) reject faith, and go on increasing in unbelief,- Allah will not forgive them nor guide them nor guide them on the way."
Notice that the Quran says those who reject faith and then BELIEVE and again DISBELIEVE. if a Muslim rejects faith and is then killed for doing so how will he live to again BELIEVE and then DISBELIEVE. The atmosphere of this verse is that of free will and freedom of choice to everyone. If Allah wanted he would have said something about the punishment, if there was any, of those who reject Islam after accepting it. but Allah takes this to be clearly a private matter between them and Allah.
I found many verses in the Quran that teach us NO PUNISHMENT for an apostate BUT I found no verse that says the contrary.
Here is another verse about the freedom of expression in the Quran. many translators translate this wrongly and kill the meaning of the word making it a bogus and strange statement. Noble Verse 39:18 "Those who listen to the word, then follow the best of it; those are they whom Allah has guided, and those it is who are the men of understanding."
The Quran tells the Muslims to listen to every thing and follow only the best of what is said. it does not tell them to kill people if they say something that is not according to the cultural norm."
The following two sets of Noble Verses were sent to me by brother Rached Blili; may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him.
Let us look at Noble Verses 109:1-6 "Say : O ye that reject Faith! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. To you be your Way, and to me mine."
Let us look at Noble Verse 42:15 "Now then, for that (reason), call (them to the Faith), and stand steadfast as thou art commanded, nor follow thou their vain desires; but say: 'I believe in the Book which God has sent down; and I am commanded to judge justly between you. God is our Lord and your Lord: for us (is the responsibility for) our deeds, and for you for your deeds. There is no contention between us and you. God will bring us together, and to Him is (our) Final Goal.'"
The Noble Quran in all of the above Noble Verses is crystal clear about providing freedom of religion and choice to all people, Muslims and non-Muslims.
3- So how come Muslim Fundamentalists execute those who desert Islam then?
The interpretation of those who prohibit women from education, even though Islam clearly allows education for women, and prohibit them also from driving, and oppress men by forcing them to grow beards, even though beards are NOT mandatory in Islam, doesn't mean much to me.
As we've seen above, it is quite clear, and beyond any questioning that Allah Almighty prohibited compulsion in religion and allowed the absolute freedom of religion to everyone. When Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him executed apostates, he did it because Muslims were at war time and because Islam was still partial, and Muslims needed protection from the hypocrites of the Jews and Christians who purposely entered Islam and deserted it later to create confusion among the Muslims as shown below in the Noble Verse.
The Sayings of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, regarding killing the renegades came when Islam was partial and the Muslims were dealing with wars all the time. So if the person wasn't with the Muslims, then he was certainly with his people, the pagans and the other non-Muslims, and he would've then had to join the evil forces to fight the Muslims. So the case back then was different than today.
I have no sympathy for those hypocrites of the Jews and Christians who got executed:
"A section of the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) say: Believe in the morning what is revealed to the believers (Muslims), but reject it at the end of the day; perchance they may (themselves) turn back (from Islam). (The Noble Quran, 3:72)"
Please read "The absolute freedom of religion in Islam" section above for more details and explanations.
Please visit Islam prohibits forming alliance with Jews and Christians and non-Muslims.
Why do some Muslims call Americans and Westerners "Great Satan"?
What is the Wisdom of Islam?
4- My rebuttal about the historical Muslims' battles with the Apostates:
According to the Islamic history, when Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him died, some of the Muslims had deserted Islam for several reasons. The biggest of those reasons was that they opposed paying the Zakah (2.5% of annual income of Islamic taxes for the poor). Keep in mind that Allah Almighty constantly Warning the Prophet and the Muslims from the hypocrites (false believers). The Arabs before Islam were used to exploiting each others. The strong ate the poor, and high interest rates were enforced on loans given to the poor to ultimately force them to sell of their cattle, sons, daughters and/or wives as slaves.
After the death of our Prophet, some of the rich hypocrites decided to join with the Pagan Arab tribes to fight the Muslims and end Islam. The leader of the apostates/renegades was Musylama Al-Kath-thab or Musylama the liar in English, started his army of infidels in what we call today the country of Oman, which is more than 1,000 miles away from Mecca and Medina where the Muslims resided.
After Musylama became strong and popular and was able to gather a big amount of pagans and hypocrites to form an army, he led them to march to Mecca and Medina to fight the Muslims. When his army finally reached the mountains near Mecca, the Muslims had fought them several battles until he ultimately was killed and his army was soundly defeated.
The objection that I have with some Muslims is for the following reasons:
1- It was the renegades or apostates that declared the war on the Muslims. The Muslims did not start the war.
2- We can't use the story of Musylama Al-Kath-thab to prove that it is ok today to kill any person who deserts Islam. Musylama was not a peaceful renegade. He wanted to destroy the Muslims through war. He had to be fought and killed. We can't use him as a standard and kill all renegades, especially those in the West for instance, who might embrace Islam and then desert it later due to the overwhelming anti-Islamic media and lies.
3- As I proved in this article, Allah Almighty in the Noble Quran talked about the apostates several times, and not a single command exists in the Noble Quran that orders the killing of any of them.
4- The Sayings of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, regarding killing the renegades came when Islam was partial and the Muslims were dealing with wars all the time. As I said above, if the person wasn't with the Muslims, then he was certainly with his people, the pagans and the other non-Muslims, and he would've then had to join the evil forces to fight the Muslims. So the case back then was different than today.
5- Today, if a week-hearted and easily persuaded person for instance decides to embrace Islam and then gets easily persuaded to leave Islam, and then gets easily persuaded to embrace Islam again, and then gets easily persuaded to leave it and so on, then how is it right for us to apply the things that were applied to the hypocrites and Musylama Al-Kath-thab during and after our Prophet's time to this innocent individual?
6- We must never forget Allah Almighty's Command that honors the freedom of religion and choice in Islam in Noble Verse 2:256 and the others as shown in this article.
7- Some Muslims claim that the Caliphs did not apply Noble Verse 2:256 and others to the renegades, because the Caliphs knew that these Noble Verses are not applicable to them. My response to this is that we:
1. Don't know if the Caliphs had any choice to apply them back in the hostile environment that they existed in back then.
2. The Caliphs are not the measuring stick that the Muslims today have to follow, especially after knowing that the Caliphs themselves did things different from each others several times before on very major Islamic issues: [1] [2].
5- Does Islam really mean to force someone to Islam or else kill him?
Please visit Does Islam really mean to force someone to Islam or else kill him?
6- Conclusion:
As we clearly see from the Noble Verses above, apostates are no longer to be killed in Islam. I am not here promoting apostates, but there is no reason to kill someone who doesn't deserve to be killed. Certainly if the apostate is hostile toward the Muslims and joins the enemy in a war against them, or tries to corrupt the Muslims in the Muslim lands by trying to convert them to his/her new deviant religion, then the matter becomes different. But if a Westerner today for instance embraces Islam for a while and then changes his position due to the overwhelming false anti-Islamic media, then certainly killing that person would be a grave sin and a big mistake.
Please visit: Apostates in the Bible- Instant death to those who desert their religion in both the Old Testament and the New Testament.
The law of apostasy in Christianity.
Allah, Islam, Quran, Muhammad questions and answers.
What is the place of Jews, Christians and non-Muslims in Islam.
Human rights and equality in Islam V.S. Christianity.
Ask me any question.
Essential Reading for all those participating here: reading or interacting.
Only then write/inter-act.
____________________________________________________________
Apostates: Should they be killed or saved?
The sections of this article are:
1- Who are the Apostates in Islam?
2- The absolute freedom of religion in Islam.
3- So how come Muslim Fundamentalists execute those who desert Islam then?
4- My rebuttal about the historical Muslims' battles with the Apostates.
5- Does Islam really mean to force someone to Islam or else kill him?
6- Conclusion.
Note: Some of the notes in this article were taken from the commentary of the Noble Quran translation of Abdullah Yusuf Ali; may Allah Almighty rest his soul. Ameen.
1- Who are the Apostates in Islam?
Apostates or Renegades are those who decide to leave the religion of Islam. There is a widely prevailing misconception about this issue. It is generally thought that the Holy Quran (The Muslims Holy Scripture) provides the death sentence for those who desert the religion of Islam. There is not the least ground for such a supposition. The Holy Quran speaks repeatedly of people going back to unbelief after believing, but never once does it say that they should be killed or punished. Although the Holy Quran does provide the death sentence for some situations such as putting a murderer to death, but it never provided death sentence or ordered the death of those who leave Islam.
Let us look at Noble Verse 2:217 "They ask thee (Mohammed) Concerning fighting In the Prohibited Month. Say: Fighting therein Is a grave (offence); but graver is it In the sight of Allah to prevent access to the path of Allah, to deny Him, to prevent access to the sacred Mosque, and drive out its members. Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you turn back from their faith (Islam) and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the hereafter; they will be companions of the fire and will abide therein." Here in this Holy Verse we see that Allah Almighty talks about those who leave Islam, and promises them punishment in the day of judgment. Allah Almighty doesn't order the death of those people.
Let also look at Noble Verse 5:54 "O ye who believe! If any from among you turn back from his faith, soon will Allah produce a people whom He (Allah) will love as they will love Him lowly with the believers, Mighty against the rejecters, fighting in the way of Allah, and never afraid of the reproachers of such as find fault. That is the Grace of Allah which He will bestow on whom He (Allah) pleaseth. And Allah encompasseth all, and He knoweth all things." Here in this Holy Verse we see again Allah Almighty strengthening the faith of the Muslims in Islam by assuring them that whenever they see Muslims leaving Islam they will also see those who join Islam with strong faith and love to Allah Almighty.
"As most men are rebellious." (5:49), it is inevitable that there should be apostates even from such a religion of reason and common-sense as Islam. In Verse 5:54 above there is a warning to the Muslims that they should not repeat the history of the Jews, and become so self-satisfied or arrogant as to depart from the spirit of Allah's teaching. If they do, the loss will be their own. Allah's bounty is not confined to one group or section of humanity. He can always raise up people who will follow the true spirit of Islam. That spirit is defined in two ways:
1- They will love Allah Almighty and Allah Almighty will love them.
2- Amongst the Brethren, their attitude will be that of humility, but to wrongdoers they will offer no compromises, and they will always strive and fight for the truth and right. They will know no fear, either physical, or that more insidious form. They are too great in mind to be haunted by any such thought.
Let us look at Noble Verse 5:55 "(O Muslims) Your (real) friends are (No less than) Allah, His Messenger, and the (Fellowship Of) Believers, those who establish regular prayers and regular charity, and they bow down humbly (in worship)." Here we see Allah Almighty telling Muslims after he warned them from apostates in (5:54) that their real friends are: Allah Almighty, Prophet Mohammed peace be upon him, and the good Muslims who keep up with their prayers and charity, and who humbly worship their God.
Let us look at Noble Verse 3:90 "But those who reject faith after they accepted it, and then go on adding to their defiance of faith never will their repentance be accepted; for they are those who have (of set purpose) gone astray." Here in this holy verse we see Allah Almighty rejecting the faith of those who keep coming back and forth to Islam. In order for a human being to accept Islam as his religion, he must be certain about it first. Allah Almighty's path is wide open, and his mercy is greater than this universe. This Holy Verse also does not order the death of those who leave Islam.
The path to Allah Almighty is always open and Allah Almighty will be your friend as in verse (5:55) above, and he will forgive your sins for you once you repent as in the following verse: "Except for those that repent (Even) after that, And make amends; for Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful." (3:89).
2- The absolute freedom of religion in Islam:
Some group of Muslims believe in killing apostates because they follow a Hadith (Saying) from Prophet Mohammed peace be upon him regarding the apostates. While Islam was weak and still growing among Jews, Christians and Pagans, Muslims did not have the full and complete religion that they needed. Some Jews and Christians wanted to take advantage of such situation to destroy Islam. They had a plan to adopt Islam first and then desert it, thus creating the impression that Islam was not a religion worth adopting.
Let us look at Noble Verse 3:72 "A section of the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) say: Believe in the morning what is revealed to the believers (Muslims), but reject it at the end of the day; perchance they may (themselves) turn back (from Islam)." To protect Islam from such Satanic attempts done by a group of the people of the book (Jews and Christians), Prophet Mohammed peace be upon him ordered the death of those who enter Islam and leave it. This temporary law that was put by our Prophet had stopped the hypocrites from the People of the Book who carried so much hatred toward Islam to enter Islam and desert it afterwards.
Allah Almighty ordered the Muslims to kill the pagans who fought against the Muslims. The following Noble Verse talks about all of the enemies who fought the Muslims long and bloody battles:
Let us look at Noble Verse 2:191 "And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith." The killing of the pagans who fought the Muslims during the time when Islam was not yet complete was essential.
Important Note: Noble Verse 2:191 above is not dedicated to the apostates as some Muslims use it to prove that the Noble Quran orders the killing of apostates. In fact, it doesn't even mention the apostates. It talks in general about slaying the pagans who declare wars on the Muslims. The pagans would obviously include the apostates who deserted Islam, but the Noble Verse certainly doesn't DIRECTLY order the killing of anyone who deserts Islam.
Allah Almighty promised that He will protect the Noble Quran from any corruption:
"We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly Guard it (from corruption). (The Noble Quran, 15:9)"
"Nay, this is a Glorious Quran, (inscribed) in a Tablet Preserved! (The Noble Quran, 85:21-22)"
Let us look at Noble Verse 5:3 ".....This day those who reject faith given up all hope of your religion: Yet fear them not But fear Me (Allah). This day have I (Allah) perfected your religion for you, completed my favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your (complete) religion....". So long as Islam was not organized, with its own community and its own laws, the unbelievers and the Hypocrites from the People of the Book and the Pagan Arabs had hoped to wean the believers from the new teaching. Now that hope is gone forever with the complete organization of Islam.
Let us look at Noble Verses 15:2-3 "Again and again will those who disbelieve, wish that they had bowed (to God's will) in Islam. Leave them alone, to enjoy (the good things of this life) and to please themselves: let (false) hope amuse them: soon will knowledge (undeceive them)."
Let us look at Noble Verses 10:99-100 "If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed, all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe! No soul can believe, except by the will of God, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand."
Let us look at Noble Verse 18:29 "Say, 'The truth is from your Lord': Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it): for the wrong doers We have prepared a Fire whose (smoke and flames), like the walls and roof of a tent, will hem them in: if they implore relief they will be granted water like melted brass, that will scald their faces, how dreadful the drink! How uncomfortable a couch to recline on!"
Let us look at Noble Verse 27:92 "And to rehearse the Qur'an: and if any accept guidance, they do it for the good of their own souls, and if any stray, say: 'I am only a Warner.'"
Let us look at Noble Verse 10:99 "If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe!" Allah Almighty doesn't like us to compel people into belief.
"No soul can believe, except by the will of God, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand. (The Noble Quran, 10:100)" Allah Almighty helps those whom He likes to be guided to His Straight Path. If anyone doesn't believe, or reverts back from Islam, it is then his loss and it is the Will of Allah Almighty.
"Say: 'Behold all that is in the heavens and on earth'; but neither Signs nor Warners profit those who believe not. Do they then expect (any thing) but (what happened in) the days of the men who passed away before them? Say: 'Wait ye then: for I, too, will wait with you.' (The Noble Quran, 10:101-102)" Notice how Allah Almighty orders us to say "Wait" to those who reject Islam. This clearly says that we can't force anyone into Islam, or punish anyone for leaving Islam.
Let us look at Noble Verse 10:108 "Say: 'O ye men! Now Truth hath reached you from your Lord! those who receive guidance, do so for the good of their own souls; those who stray, do so to their own loss: and I am not (set) over you to arrange your affairs.'" Whoever believes benefits his soul and whoever doesn't, harms it, and Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him is not in charge of people to arrange their affairs. Only Allah Almighty is.
"Say: 'Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger: but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message). (The Noble Quran, 24:54)" Prophet Muhammad's duty was only to preach.
"Those who pervert the Truth in Our Signs are not hidden from Us. Which is better? he that is cast into the Fire, or he that comes safe through, on the Day of Judgement? Do what ye will: Verily He seeth (clearly) all that ye do. (The Noble Quran, 41:40)" Here we clearly see Allah Almighty giving a freedom of choice for people to choose or refuse Islam.
"And those who take as protectors others besides Him - Allah doth watch over them; and thou art not the disposer of their affairs. (The Noble Quran, 42:6)" Again, Allah Almighty here told Prophet Muhammad that he has no authority over those who reject Islam.
"It is true thou wilt not be able to guide every one whom thou lovest; but Allah Guides those whom He will and He Knows those who receive guidance. (The Noble Quran, 28:56)" Again, no authority to Prophet Muhammad over those who accept or reject Islam.
Let us look at Noble Verse 2:256 "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things." The Holy Quran prohibits Muslims to force any person into Islam. Muslims must not let people resent Islam and Muslims. They must leave people decide for themselves because the "Truth stands out clear from error" (2:256).
Compulsion is incompatible with religion: Because (1) religion depends upon faith and will, and these would be meaningless by force; (2) Truth and Error have been so clearly shown up by the mercy of Allah Almighty that there should be no doubt in the minds of any persons of good will as to the fundamentals of faith; (3) Allah Almighty's protection is continuous, and His Plan is always to lead us from the depths of darkness into the clearest light.
The following was sent to me from "Vipor Poison"; may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him:
"I found another verse in the Quran that dealt with apostates. Noble Verse 4:137 "Those who believe, then reject faith, then believe (again) and (again) reject faith, and go on increasing in unbelief,- Allah will not forgive them nor guide them nor guide them on the way."
Notice that the Quran says those who reject faith and then BELIEVE and again DISBELIEVE. if a Muslim rejects faith and is then killed for doing so how will he live to again BELIEVE and then DISBELIEVE. The atmosphere of this verse is that of free will and freedom of choice to everyone. If Allah wanted he would have said something about the punishment, if there was any, of those who reject Islam after accepting it. but Allah takes this to be clearly a private matter between them and Allah.
I found many verses in the Quran that teach us NO PUNISHMENT for an apostate BUT I found no verse that says the contrary.
Here is another verse about the freedom of expression in the Quran. many translators translate this wrongly and kill the meaning of the word making it a bogus and strange statement. Noble Verse 39:18 "Those who listen to the word, then follow the best of it; those are they whom Allah has guided, and those it is who are the men of understanding."
The Quran tells the Muslims to listen to every thing and follow only the best of what is said. it does not tell them to kill people if they say something that is not according to the cultural norm."
The following two sets of Noble Verses were sent to me by brother Rached Blili; may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him.
Let us look at Noble Verses 109:1-6 "Say : O ye that reject Faith! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. To you be your Way, and to me mine."
Let us look at Noble Verse 42:15 "Now then, for that (reason), call (them to the Faith), and stand steadfast as thou art commanded, nor follow thou their vain desires; but say: 'I believe in the Book which God has sent down; and I am commanded to judge justly between you. God is our Lord and your Lord: for us (is the responsibility for) our deeds, and for you for your deeds. There is no contention between us and you. God will bring us together, and to Him is (our) Final Goal.'"
The Noble Quran in all of the above Noble Verses is crystal clear about providing freedom of religion and choice to all people, Muslims and non-Muslims.
3- So how come Muslim Fundamentalists execute those who desert Islam then?
The interpretation of those who prohibit women from education, even though Islam clearly allows education for women, and prohibit them also from driving, and oppress men by forcing them to grow beards, even though beards are NOT mandatory in Islam, doesn't mean much to me.
As we've seen above, it is quite clear, and beyond any questioning that Allah Almighty prohibited compulsion in religion and allowed the absolute freedom of religion to everyone. When Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him executed apostates, he did it because Muslims were at war time and because Islam was still partial, and Muslims needed protection from the hypocrites of the Jews and Christians who purposely entered Islam and deserted it later to create confusion among the Muslims as shown below in the Noble Verse.
The Sayings of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, regarding killing the renegades came when Islam was partial and the Muslims were dealing with wars all the time. So if the person wasn't with the Muslims, then he was certainly with his people, the pagans and the other non-Muslims, and he would've then had to join the evil forces to fight the Muslims. So the case back then was different than today.
I have no sympathy for those hypocrites of the Jews and Christians who got executed:
"A section of the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) say: Believe in the morning what is revealed to the believers (Muslims), but reject it at the end of the day; perchance they may (themselves) turn back (from Islam). (The Noble Quran, 3:72)"
Please read "The absolute freedom of religion in Islam" section above for more details and explanations.
Please visit Islam prohibits forming alliance with Jews and Christians and non-Muslims.
Why do some Muslims call Americans and Westerners "Great Satan"?
What is the Wisdom of Islam?
4- My rebuttal about the historical Muslims' battles with the Apostates:
According to the Islamic history, when Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him died, some of the Muslims had deserted Islam for several reasons. The biggest of those reasons was that they opposed paying the Zakah (2.5% of annual income of Islamic taxes for the poor). Keep in mind that Allah Almighty constantly Warning the Prophet and the Muslims from the hypocrites (false believers). The Arabs before Islam were used to exploiting each others. The strong ate the poor, and high interest rates were enforced on loans given to the poor to ultimately force them to sell of their cattle, sons, daughters and/or wives as slaves.
After the death of our Prophet, some of the rich hypocrites decided to join with the Pagan Arab tribes to fight the Muslims and end Islam. The leader of the apostates/renegades was Musylama Al-Kath-thab or Musylama the liar in English, started his army of infidels in what we call today the country of Oman, which is more than 1,000 miles away from Mecca and Medina where the Muslims resided.
After Musylama became strong and popular and was able to gather a big amount of pagans and hypocrites to form an army, he led them to march to Mecca and Medina to fight the Muslims. When his army finally reached the mountains near Mecca, the Muslims had fought them several battles until he ultimately was killed and his army was soundly defeated.
The objection that I have with some Muslims is for the following reasons:
1- It was the renegades or apostates that declared the war on the Muslims. The Muslims did not start the war.
2- We can't use the story of Musylama Al-Kath-thab to prove that it is ok today to kill any person who deserts Islam. Musylama was not a peaceful renegade. He wanted to destroy the Muslims through war. He had to be fought and killed. We can't use him as a standard and kill all renegades, especially those in the West for instance, who might embrace Islam and then desert it later due to the overwhelming anti-Islamic media and lies.
3- As I proved in this article, Allah Almighty in the Noble Quran talked about the apostates several times, and not a single command exists in the Noble Quran that orders the killing of any of them.
4- The Sayings of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, regarding killing the renegades came when Islam was partial and the Muslims were dealing with wars all the time. As I said above, if the person wasn't with the Muslims, then he was certainly with his people, the pagans and the other non-Muslims, and he would've then had to join the evil forces to fight the Muslims. So the case back then was different than today.
5- Today, if a week-hearted and easily persuaded person for instance decides to embrace Islam and then gets easily persuaded to leave Islam, and then gets easily persuaded to embrace Islam again, and then gets easily persuaded to leave it and so on, then how is it right for us to apply the things that were applied to the hypocrites and Musylama Al-Kath-thab during and after our Prophet's time to this innocent individual?
6- We must never forget Allah Almighty's Command that honors the freedom of religion and choice in Islam in Noble Verse 2:256 and the others as shown in this article.
7- Some Muslims claim that the Caliphs did not apply Noble Verse 2:256 and others to the renegades, because the Caliphs knew that these Noble Verses are not applicable to them. My response to this is that we:
1. Don't know if the Caliphs had any choice to apply them back in the hostile environment that they existed in back then.
2. The Caliphs are not the measuring stick that the Muslims today have to follow, especially after knowing that the Caliphs themselves did things different from each others several times before on very major Islamic issues: [1] [2].
5- Does Islam really mean to force someone to Islam or else kill him?
Please visit Does Islam really mean to force someone to Islam or else kill him?
6- Conclusion:
As we clearly see from the Noble Verses above, apostates are no longer to be killed in Islam. I am not here promoting apostates, but there is no reason to kill someone who doesn't deserve to be killed. Certainly if the apostate is hostile toward the Muslims and joins the enemy in a war against them, or tries to corrupt the Muslims in the Muslim lands by trying to convert them to his/her new deviant religion, then the matter becomes different. But if a Westerner today for instance embraces Islam for a while and then changes his position due to the overwhelming false anti-Islamic media, then certainly killing that person would be a grave sin and a big mistake.
Please visit: Apostates in the Bible- Instant death to those who desert their religion in both the Old Testament and the New Testament.
The law of apostasy in Christianity.
Allah, Islam, Quran, Muhammad questions and answers.
What is the place of Jews, Christians and non-Muslims in Islam.
Human rights and equality in Islam V.S. Christianity.
Ask me any question.
#920 Posted by echoboom on July 18, 2007 4:45:17 pm
Raw_Dust:919
You could have been Khaak-i-Shifaa ( healing Dust) but you seem like Khaak-i-beemaari today..are you O.K?
Everything you are frothing about is there..Been there, Done that!
Check out!
www.secularism.org : The organisation of Mal'ooons.
Here's a list where your misery would love company...see you here next year!..........InshaAllah! :) :) :)
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#919 Posted by Raw_Dust on July 18, 2007 3:59:15 pm
RE: 891:
I will shamelessly repeat it again that there are very good reasons for the "Cause" to silence the dissenters/doubters with a proper hit-job. Islam as it exists today will NOT survive once the Taboos on:
1 - Mohammad's personal life
2 - Origins of Quran
3 - Research on the authorship of Quran
are broken. Imagine, the lit. critics, linguistic theorists, feminists and sundry others taking on Mohammad's sexuality, Quran's incoherence and coming up with theories to put the entire Islamic shabang in earthly (unholy) contexts. The cloak of Holyness around Mohammad and Islam along with a
tangible threat to life to the dissenters are essential tools in maintaining the very bases of dogma.
The Cause of the Now-Islam is actually best served by keeping this threat intact.
I will shamelessly repeat it again that there are very good reasons for the "Cause" to silence the dissenters/doubters with a proper hit-job. Islam as it exists today will NOT survive once the Taboos on:
1 - Mohammad's personal life
2 - Origins of Quran
3 - Research on the authorship of Quran
are broken. Imagine, the lit. critics, linguistic theorists, feminists and sundry others taking on Mohammad's sexuality, Quran's incoherence and coming up with theories to put the entire Islamic shabang in earthly (unholy) contexts. The cloak of Holyness around Mohammad and Islam along with a
tangible threat to life to the dissenters are essential tools in maintaining the very bases of dogma.
The Cause of the Now-Islam is actually best served by keeping this threat intact.
#918 Posted by GT on July 18, 2007 3:46:35 pm
#916 Posted by arjun2:
Arjun:
"As part of that effort, Washington plans to spend $750 million on education, health and economic projects in the tribal areas over the next five years and is hoping to find an additional $300 million to $350 million in the coming year to help revamp Pakistan's beleagured 85,000-member Frontier Corps that patrols the border."
Did I hear something similar in the context of Iraq?
Arjun:
"As part of that effort, Washington plans to spend $750 million on education, health and economic projects in the tribal areas over the next five years and is hoping to find an additional $300 million to $350 million in the coming year to help revamp Pakistan's beleagured 85,000-member Frontier Corps that patrols the border."
Did I hear something similar in the context of Iraq?
#917 Posted by GT on July 18, 2007 3:42:44 pm
#913 Posted by zeemax
"Yes. I haven't slept more than a disturbed few hours since 3rd July."
Do not worry .... Lal Masjid will keep India and Pakistan awake for quite some time ... and that, perhaps, is how it should be.
"Yes. I haven't slept more than a disturbed few hours since 3rd July."
Do not worry .... Lal Masjid will keep India and Pakistan awake for quite some time ... and that, perhaps, is how it should be.
#916 Posted by arjun2 on July 18, 2007 3:18:45 pm
#913 Posted by zeemax on July 18, 2007 1:37:40 pm
Yes. I haven't slept more than a disturbed few hours since 3rd July.
you should have slept while you had the chance. you want to be well rested when you take delivery of your 72 virgins..
U.S.: Pakistan Will Attack Militants
Tuesday, July 17, 2007
By MATTHEW LEE, Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON — The United States expects Pakistan to launch more military strikes on Islamic militants along its border with Afghanistan even as the Bush administration pumps hundreds of millions of dollars in development aid into lawless tribal regions to fight extremism.
Senior U.S. officials said Tuesday that the administration will back the military efforts of Pakistani President Gen. Pervez Musharraf to quell a resurgence of al-Qaida and Taliban activity in frontier provinces. But the U.S. will continue aid to the provinces' impoverished residents, the officials said.
"The Pakistani government is dealing decisively with the problems that have been brewing for some time," said Richard Boucher, the assistant secretary of state for south and central Asian affairs, who is expected to travel to Islamabad in early August.
He cited recent developments along the Afghan border, particularly in largely ungoverned Waziristan where Washington says al-Qaida has regrouped, as well as the military siege on extremists holed up in Islamabad's Red Mosque.
"Now having dealt with the mosque, it's pretty much crossing a line and there's no going back," Boucher said. "I think it shows that the government of Pakistan is prepared to move, to act, against a dangerous militancy that has come to infect various areas and parts of Pakistani society."
As part of that effort, Washington plans to spend $750 million on education, health and economic projects in the tribal areas over the next five years and is hoping to find an additional $300 million to $350 million in the coming year to help revamp Pakistan's beleagured 85,000-member Frontier Corps that patrols the border.
While a civilian "hearts and minds campaign" may offer the best long-term solution to combating extremists in the region, "some elements have to be dealt with militarily," Boucher said.
"We have to remember that some military action is necessary, and will probably have to be taken, that there are elements in these areas that are extremely violent and are out to kill government people, out to kill government leaders, and will not settle for a peaceful way forward," he said.
Boucher's comments came at a news briefing timed to coincide with the release of findings from a new U.S. National Intelligence Estimate that expressed concern about al-Qaida's resurgence in Pakistan's northwest, which Musharraf's government had allowed to be policed by tribal chiefs.
At the White House, President Bush's homeland security advisor, Fran Townsend, also praised Musharraf's efforts but said the agreement with tribal leaders had been a failure.
His strategy "hasn't worked for Pakistan. It hasn't worked for the United States," she said, stressing, though, that the administration continues to back Musharraf.
"I think it's fair to say President Musharraf is committed to the fact that he will not permit (the tribal areas) to be a safe haven and we will work with him to ensure that that safe haven is denied to them," Townsend said.
Yes. I haven't slept more than a disturbed few hours since 3rd July.
you should have slept while you had the chance. you want to be well rested when you take delivery of your 72 virgins..
U.S.: Pakistan Will Attack Militants
Tuesday, July 17, 2007
By MATTHEW LEE, Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON — The United States expects Pakistan to launch more military strikes on Islamic militants along its border with Afghanistan even as the Bush administration pumps hundreds of millions of dollars in development aid into lawless tribal regions to fight extremism.
Senior U.S. officials said Tuesday that the administration will back the military efforts of Pakistani President Gen. Pervez Musharraf to quell a resurgence of al-Qaida and Taliban activity in frontier provinces. But the U.S. will continue aid to the provinces' impoverished residents, the officials said.
"The Pakistani government is dealing decisively with the problems that have been brewing for some time," said Richard Boucher, the assistant secretary of state for south and central Asian affairs, who is expected to travel to Islamabad in early August.
He cited recent developments along the Afghan border, particularly in largely ungoverned Waziristan where Washington says al-Qaida has regrouped, as well as the military siege on extremists holed up in Islamabad's Red Mosque.
"Now having dealt with the mosque, it's pretty much crossing a line and there's no going back," Boucher said. "I think it shows that the government of Pakistan is prepared to move, to act, against a dangerous militancy that has come to infect various areas and parts of Pakistani society."
As part of that effort, Washington plans to spend $750 million on education, health and economic projects in the tribal areas over the next five years and is hoping to find an additional $300 million to $350 million in the coming year to help revamp Pakistan's beleagured 85,000-member Frontier Corps that patrols the border.
While a civilian "hearts and minds campaign" may offer the best long-term solution to combating extremists in the region, "some elements have to be dealt with militarily," Boucher said.
"We have to remember that some military action is necessary, and will probably have to be taken, that there are elements in these areas that are extremely violent and are out to kill government people, out to kill government leaders, and will not settle for a peaceful way forward," he said.
Boucher's comments came at a news briefing timed to coincide with the release of findings from a new U.S. National Intelligence Estimate that expressed concern about al-Qaida's resurgence in Pakistan's northwest, which Musharraf's government had allowed to be policed by tribal chiefs.
At the White House, President Bush's homeland security advisor, Fran Townsend, also praised Musharraf's efforts but said the agreement with tribal leaders had been a failure.
His strategy "hasn't worked for Pakistan. It hasn't worked for the United States," she said, stressing, though, that the administration continues to back Musharraf.
"I think it's fair to say President Musharraf is committed to the fact that he will not permit (the tribal areas) to be a safe haven and we will work with him to ensure that that safe haven is denied to them," Townsend said.
#915 Posted by Dash_Dot on July 18, 2007 2:39:07 pm
anyone expieriencing trouble with this articles interacts. It has taken me 2.5 mins for this page to load up, and my line/link is a pretty good one with a reasonable bandwidth.
#914 Posted by zeemax on July 18, 2007 1:42:33 pm
#912 Posted by PM,
...though in such cases they tend to think more deeply about whether it is worth it.
Whether it is worth it or not, that is the question. To Muslims, it is worth it. To you it isn't. And that's the mental block I was referring to in #910.
...though in such cases they tend to think more deeply about whether it is worth it.
Whether it is worth it or not, that is the question. To Muslims, it is worth it. To you it isn't. And that's the mental block I was referring to in #910.
#913 Posted by zeemax on July 18, 2007 1:37:40 pm
#909 Posted by GT,
If so, then you are a flaming LIBERAL who is extremely upset by this onslaught against Muslims.
Yes. I haven't slept more than a disturbed few hours since 3rd July.
If so, then you are a flaming LIBERAL who is extremely upset by this onslaught against Muslims.
Yes. I haven't slept more than a disturbed few hours since 3rd July.
#912 Posted by PM on July 18, 2007 1:20:15 pm
re.
"They lay down their lives for friends unthinkingly without distinction of caste, creed or colour ... that is Islam. "
I'm sure you mean this in the way it is said that something is a very "Christian thing" to do. Not in a definitive way (of Christianity), that is.
Unless you actually believe that such chivalry is unique to Islam or to religion? People are often willing to lay down their lives even without a belief in the hereafter, though in such cases they tend to think more deeply about whether it is worth it.
"They lay down their lives for friends unthinkingly without distinction of caste, creed or colour ... that is Islam. "
I'm sure you mean this in the way it is said that something is a very "Christian thing" to do. Not in a definitive way (of Christianity), that is.
Unless you actually believe that such chivalry is unique to Islam or to religion? People are often willing to lay down their lives even without a belief in the hereafter, though in such cases they tend to think more deeply about whether it is worth it.
#911 Posted by jang on July 18, 2007 1:07:18 pm
only islami resurgence i see here is fratricide...most recently between masadi and jeemax. gt and kaal banias are throwing kerosene in it and later will even demand money for the spent fueld..and echo is a paid agent of the west..not a real muslim.
#910 Posted by zeemax on July 18, 2007 12:52:35 pm
Look GT ... there's a great mental block here ... (I wish kaalchakra was here because he knows what I talk about and puts it in better words than me).
For others, life is everything, and the rest is 'dekhi jayeegi'.
In Islam, the hereafter is everything, and life is 'dekhi jayeegi'.
So its exactly the reverse. How can a meeting of the minds occur in that case?
That is why it is called an 'ideology of death'. It is not. It is an ideology which takes into account reality of death openly and translates it into how to live a fair life.
For others, life is everything, and the rest is 'dekhi jayeegi'.
In Islam, the hereafter is everything, and life is 'dekhi jayeegi'.
So its exactly the reverse. How can a meeting of the minds occur in that case?
That is why it is called an 'ideology of death'. It is not. It is an ideology which takes into account reality of death openly and translates it into how to live a fair life.
#909 Posted by GT on July 18, 2007 12:48:34 pm
#906 Posted by zeemax:
Sometime back you said:
"But, to answer your question, after having wracked my mind,"
I take it from this statement that you are THINKING when you say:
"But what if resolution through argument and practical logic is not possible?
Then, the better side would have won. Simple."
If so, then you are a flaming LIBERAL who is extremely upset by this onslaught against Muslims.
So what you are saying is that after THINKING you come to the conclusion that
Sometime back you said:
"But, to answer your question, after having wracked my mind,"
I take it from this statement that you are THINKING when you say:
"But what if resolution through argument and practical logic is not possible?
Then, the better side would have won. Simple."
If so, then you are a flaming LIBERAL who is extremely upset by this onslaught against Muslims.
So what you are saying is that after THINKING you come to the conclusion that
#908 Posted by zeemax on July 18, 2007 12:45:53 pm
#907 Posted by GT,
I don't know what event you're referring to of 1857. But I don't need to go back 150 years to find any answer. Islam has had a lot of ups and downs, and perhaps the most varied experience of the world than any other. There's a resurgence going on right now and it is back to the basics. I have said this many times before. Only the basics are the real power of Islam, which is why people are turning to them.
I don't thing masadi is a Muslim BTW. I have come to believe he's waiting for some Mehdi like our friend 'Number' here.
I don't know what event you're referring to of 1857. But I don't need to go back 150 years to find any answer. Islam has had a lot of ups and downs, and perhaps the most varied experience of the world than any other. There's a resurgence going on right now and it is back to the basics. I have said this many times before. Only the basics are the real power of Islam, which is why people are turning to them.
I don't thing masadi is a Muslim BTW. I have come to believe he's waiting for some Mehdi like our friend 'Number' here.
#907 Posted by GT on July 18, 2007 12:35:20 pm
Zee:
Get a grip on yourself.
"They lay down their lives for friends unthinkingly without distinction of caste, creed or colour ... " that is Islam.
Is this what they did in 1857? Is this Islam? Laying down your life for a friend (who knows what the friend is upto) is not Islam. It is tribalism. It is these kinds of things that you say which get the goat of people like masadi.
#906 Posted by zeemax on July 18, 2007 12:28:47 pm
#904 Posted by GT,
But what if resolution through argument and practical logic is not possible?
Then, the better side would have won. Simple.
But what if resolution through argument and practical logic is not possible?
Then, the better side would have won. Simple.
#905 Posted by zeemax on July 18, 2007 12:24:32 pm
...contd...#903,
... you would have seen Fawzia Afzal Khan's article of contempt, and also perhaps noticed the affection those Muslim girls showered on her as per her account. They would have died for her too even though there was nothing common between them.
That is Islam.
... you would have seen Fawzia Afzal Khan's article of contempt, and also perhaps noticed the affection those Muslim girls showered on her as per her account. They would have died for her too even though there was nothing common between them.
That is Islam.
#904 Posted by GT on July 18, 2007 12:23:48 pm
#902 Posted by zeemax:
Zee:
We are already talking :)
"They left their prophet unburied and thought resolving dissent by argument and practical logic was more important."
This is a great first step. But what if resolution through arguement and practical logic is not possible?
Zee:
We are already talking :)
"They left their prophet unburied and thought resolving dissent by argument and practical logic was more important."
This is a great first step. But what if resolution through arguement and practical logic is not possible?
#903 Posted by zeemax on July 18, 2007 12:13:50 pm
#901 Posted by GT,
Yes it's clearer now. But I'm still afraid you do not fully grasp Islam ...
When they ""They lay down their lives for friends unthinkingly without distinction of caste, creed or colour ... ", that is Islam. It is not 'oons'.
No 'oon' will lay down their life for their teachers and friends like the Hafsa girls did ... it is right in front of you. That is a pure Islamic deed. You don't run away to save your life and leave your colleagues behind. If you die, you die. That's it. No less no more.
(P.S. Don't get too hung up on Animal Farm. Islam transcends that by far)
Yes it's clearer now. But I'm still afraid you do not fully grasp Islam ...
When they ""They lay down their lives for friends unthinkingly without distinction of caste, creed or colour ... ", that is Islam. It is not 'oons'.
No 'oon' will lay down their life for their teachers and friends like the Hafsa girls did ... it is right in front of you. That is a pure Islamic deed. You don't run away to save your life and leave your colleagues behind. If you die, you die. That's it. No less no more.
(P.S. Don't get too hung up on Animal Farm. Islam transcends that by far)
#902 Posted by zeemax on July 18, 2007 12:03:18 pm
#899 Posted by GT,
Zee,Propose a set of rules for governance where incidents like Lal Masjid do not occur in Pakistan again. Make sure that the rules hold for Lal Mandir too.
GT, I'm accused of living in the 7th century, being regressive, and by masadi of even being an idolator, and plenty of other stuff.
But, to answer your question, after having wracked my mind, I cannot come up with a better set of rules than when Muhammad's body was lying unburied, and the Quraish had gathered in the Masjid-e-Nabvi awaiting the next Caliph's appointment, and word reached that the Ansaar were preparing to name their own Caliph ... Abu Bakr, Umar and Abu Ubaida had rushed to the Ansaar's meeting place leaving everything aside. If they hadn't done that, Islam would be dead at Muhammad's death. There would have been civil war.
It was much within the power of Muhajireen to crush Ansaar's rebellion by force, but they didn't do that. They left their prophet unburied and thought resolving dissent by argument and practical logic was more important.
Can there be a better assignment of priorities than that?
Zee,Propose a set of rules for governance where incidents like Lal Masjid do not occur in Pakistan again. Make sure that the rules hold for Lal Mandir too.
GT, I'm accused of living in the 7th century, being regressive, and by masadi of even being an idolator, and plenty of other stuff.
But, to answer your question, after having wracked my mind, I cannot come up with a better set of rules than when Muhammad's body was lying unburied, and the Quraish had gathered in the Masjid-e-Nabvi awaiting the next Caliph's appointment, and word reached that the Ansaar were preparing to name their own Caliph ... Abu Bakr, Umar and Abu Ubaida had rushed to the Ansaar's meeting place leaving everything aside. If they hadn't done that, Islam would be dead at Muhammad's death. There would have been civil war.
It was much within the power of Muhajireen to crush Ansaar's rebellion by force, but they didn't do that. They left their prophet unburied and thought resolving dissent by argument and practical logic was more important.
Can there be a better assignment of priorities than that?
#901 Posted by GT on July 18, 2007 11:59:25 am
"They lay down their lives for friends unthinkingly without distinction of caste, creed or colour ... "
That makes them 'oons' (remember, for me 'oons' are good people who do not discriminate).
"The ones with power who speak the language of the 'oons' but who run after the control of a powerful state are the ones you and echo are talking about."
These are the bad guys ... like Indira Gandhi, Stalin, Bhutto etc. Their language is full of words like 'secularism', 'nationalism, 'internationalism', 'roti-kapda-makan' etc. See what they do .... they advocate a strong state (a mai-baap state complete with socio-economic hegemony) ... and then they take control over the state. Have you read 'Animal Farm' ... I am talking about the pigs .... they are not 'oons' .... Yes, oscar the horse is an 'oon'. Am I a bit clearer now?
#900 Posted by zeemax on July 18, 2007 11:50:54 am
#897 Posted by GT,
I may have been a bit hasty on this, but your post wasn't clear. Do forgive if I erred.
I may have been a bit hasty on this, but your post wasn't clear. Do forgive if I erred.
#899 Posted by GT on July 18, 2007 11:49:50 am
Zee,
Propose a set of rules for governance where incidents like Lal Masjid do not occur in Pakistan again. Make sure that the rules hold for Lal Mandir too. In that context, let us see how much power the state should have? Then let us see how much of a disagreement we have here in chowk.
Propose a set of rules for governance where incidents like Lal Masjid do not occur in Pakistan again. Make sure that the rules hold for Lal Mandir too. In that context, let us see how much power the state should have? Then let us see how much of a disagreement we have here in chowk.
#898 Posted by zeemax on July 18, 2007 11:48:16 am
#897 Posted by GT,
GT, I don't know what you mean by "(as you yourself have pointed out in the case of Pathans)The ones with power who speak the language of the 'oons' but who run after the control of a powerful state are the ones you and echo are talking about.
.
Can you pls clarify? Where did I say that they're running after power?
Just to further elaborate, Islam is 'part' of tribal Pathans deep inside, not just a religion like we discuss all the time ... it is part of their very being.
And they don't give a damn about power. The ONLY thing important to them is honour.
Now can I please have my answer?
GT, I don't know what you mean by "(as you yourself have pointed out in the case of Pathans)The ones with power who speak the language of the 'oons' but who run after the control of a powerful state are the ones you and echo are talking about.
.
Can you pls clarify? Where did I say that they're running after power?
Just to further elaborate, Islam is 'part' of tribal Pathans deep inside, not just a religion like we discuss all the time ... it is part of their very being.
And they don't give a damn about power. The ONLY thing important to them is honour.
Now can I please have my answer?
#897 Posted by GT on July 18, 2007 11:26:19 am
#895 Posted by zeemax
"You don't hold them in contempt, like most 'oons' do for anyone remotely resembling a 'Mulla', or voicing Allah or Islam."
Zee, I disagree. Most 'oons' do not hold other people in contempt. They are simply not heard. The common people are mostly 'oons' (as you yourself have pointed out in the case of Pathans). The ones with power who speak the language of the 'oons' but who run after the control of a powerful state are the ones you and echo are talking about.
Do you know the greatest 'oon' in our mythology? His name is Arjun, the one who protested the war in the Mahabharata. His ideology does not rule, Krisna's dogmatic ideology of 'duty' rules us even today. But Arjun's wimpy protest has left us with a language of protest: we do still ask 'duty towards whom'? It is a still a start for a protest movement ... at least in our sub-continent.
#896 Posted by GT on July 18, 2007 11:06:18 am
#893 Posted by zeemax
cont....
The IAF bombings of Mizoram, Nagaland, Golden Temple, Punjab, Assam, Delhi Riots, Gujrat, Kashmir ... whenever the Indian state has killed in these regions it has received the subtle support of the classes that matter in the rest of the country. We keep on denying till we reach the absurd. The Pakistanis should not let this happen in their country. There are examples of conflict resolutions in India that Pakistanis can learn from too .... Gorkhaland comes to mind straight away. Hopefully by learning, Pakistanis can leapfrog India in building a better (i.e. weaker) state.
cont....
The IAF bombings of Mizoram, Nagaland, Golden Temple, Punjab, Assam, Delhi Riots, Gujrat, Kashmir ... whenever the Indian state has killed in these regions it has received the subtle support of the classes that matter in the rest of the country. We keep on denying till we reach the absurd. The Pakistanis should not let this happen in their country. There are examples of conflict resolutions in India that Pakistanis can learn from too .... Gorkhaland comes to mind straight away. Hopefully by learning, Pakistanis can leapfrog India in building a better (i.e. weaker) state.
#895 Posted by zeemax on July 18, 2007 11:03:26 am
#894 Posted by GT,
Look ... GT, you 'negotiate' with your own people. You don't hold them in contempt, like most 'oons' do for anyone remotely resembling a 'Mulla', or voicing Allah or Islam. You talk to them, and resolve issues. They are citizens of Pakistan too.
That is what the liberals of Pakistan are guilty of ... i.e. holding Islam in contempt. That is why we're seeing what we're seeing today.
I have lived in dorms with Wazirs and Mehsuds. I know how loyal they are. And I equally know, how fierce.
They lay down their lives for friends unthinkingly without distinction of caste, creed or colour ... but they don't leave their enemies alive ... no matter what. That's their way. Take my word for it. It is a tragedy of immense proportion that we have turned them against us.
Look ... GT, you 'negotiate' with your own people. You don't hold them in contempt, like most 'oons' do for anyone remotely resembling a 'Mulla', or voicing Allah or Islam. You talk to them, and resolve issues. They are citizens of Pakistan too.
That is what the liberals of Pakistan are guilty of ... i.e. holding Islam in contempt. That is why we're seeing what we're seeing today.
I have lived in dorms with Wazirs and Mehsuds. I know how loyal they are. And I equally know, how fierce.
They lay down their lives for friends unthinkingly without distinction of caste, creed or colour ... but they don't leave their enemies alive ... no matter what. That's their way. Take my word for it. It is a tragedy of immense proportion that we have turned them against us.
#894 Posted by GT on July 18, 2007 10:50:52 am
#893 Posted by zeemax
"You don't lay siege and kill your own women and children like that. You fight powerful enemies, not your own unarmed civilians."
Who gave the dictator this power? Will Pakistanis/Indians ensure that their respective states never have such unchecked powers in the future? How can we do so? Can 'oons' and 'fundoos' come together in answering this question? Can Pakistanis and Indians come together in answering this question? .... I must be dreaming ... need some tea.
"You don't lay siege and kill your own women and children like that. You fight powerful enemies, not your own unarmed civilians."
Who gave the dictator this power? Will Pakistanis/Indians ensure that their respective states never have such unchecked powers in the future? How can we do so? Can 'oons' and 'fundoos' come together in answering this question? Can Pakistanis and Indians come together in answering this question? .... I must be dreaming ... need some tea.
#893 Posted by zeemax on July 18, 2007 10:33:55 am
Gawd I hate this format ... I keep losing long posts ... my 3.0 gig processor fan sounds like a jet plane taking off ...
#885 Posted by PM,
Thanks for saying that.
Leave aside Islam, politics, Faith, democracy, war in Afghanistan and all the rest. These women and children were our own Pakistanis just like you and me.
You don't lay siege and kill your own women and children like that. You fight powerful enemies, not your own unarmed civilians.
Musharraf had said in Baluchistan on 10th July "Come out or you'll all be killed". They didn't comply, so he killed them all, man woman or child, just as he had said.
Now we'll all have to bear the consequences.
#885 Posted by PM,
Thanks for saying that.
Leave aside Islam, politics, Faith, democracy, war in Afghanistan and all the rest. These women and children were our own Pakistanis just like you and me.
You don't lay siege and kill your own women and children like that. You fight powerful enemies, not your own unarmed civilians.
Musharraf had said in Baluchistan on 10th July "Come out or you'll all be killed". They didn't comply, so he killed them all, man woman or child, just as he had said.
Now we'll all have to bear the consequences.
#892 Posted by PM on July 18, 2007 10:31:42 am
re. philosopher #887
"Patrick ji...you have just rephrased your questions in this post. Do you want me to rephrase my answers now?"
Philo, the first time 'round my question was asked in the abstract, and your answer was answered likewise. However, abstractions have the danger of taking on a psuedo-life of their own, espeically in cyberspace. That's why I asked the question more pointedly the second time 'round. I'm forcing you to be honest and imagine yourself in a certain situation, making it as real as your mind possibly can. Otherwise this is all so much of intellecto-emotional masturbation.
So, once again: Would you pull the trigger on my apostate friends if I pointed them out to you? Talk is cheap.
"Patrick ji...you have just rephrased your questions in this post. Do you want me to rephrase my answers now?"
Philo, the first time 'round my question was asked in the abstract, and your answer was answered likewise. However, abstractions have the danger of taking on a psuedo-life of their own, espeically in cyberspace. That's why I asked the question more pointedly the second time 'round. I'm forcing you to be honest and imagine yourself in a certain situation, making it as real as your mind possibly can. Otherwise this is all so much of intellecto-emotional masturbation.
So, once again: Would you pull the trigger on my apostate friends if I pointed them out to you? Talk is cheap.
#891 Posted by PM on July 18, 2007 10:25:59 am
re. philosopher #887
"Islam is a very flexible system however this flexibility is always exploited by the ''oons''. In this scenario when criticising Islam is fashions in the world, a lot of ‘‘pseudo Muslim’’ are exploiting it to pursue their own vested interests. Aryan hirsi, wafa sultan, Rushdie only to name a few are worst example of this ''oon' trend. Letting these people get away with this BS is sheer stupidity."
Agreed. But what would be a greater stupidity, in a world that is a marketplace of ideas, is trying to silence them with death. While that may fill your need for revenge, or even imbue you with a nice sense of power, rest assured, you will have ultimately done the Cause more harm than good. Masadi already put it eloquently much earlier.
"Islam is a very flexible system however this flexibility is always exploited by the ''oons''. In this scenario when criticising Islam is fashions in the world, a lot of ‘‘pseudo Muslim’’ are exploiting it to pursue their own vested interests. Aryan hirsi, wafa sultan, Rushdie only to name a few are worst example of this ''oon' trend. Letting these people get away with this BS is sheer stupidity."
Agreed. But what would be a greater stupidity, in a world that is a marketplace of ideas, is trying to silence them with death. While that may fill your need for revenge, or even imbue you with a nice sense of power, rest assured, you will have ultimately done the Cause more harm than good. Masadi already put it eloquently much earlier.
#890 Posted by GT on July 18, 2007 10:21:00 am
#879 Posted by Urstruly
"WHERE THE HELL ARE WETERN HUMAN RIGHTS ORGS NOW"
Urstruly sahib,
They are in Kashmir reporting on the abuses of the Indian state.
"WHERE THE HELL ARE WETERN HUMAN RIGHTS ORGS NOW"
Urstruly sahib,
They are in Kashmir reporting on the abuses of the Indian state.
#889 Posted by PM on July 18, 2007 10:17:13 am
dang! Double negatives!!
correction: "...and also believe in the import of an Islamic social system, but just don't think that bringing about such a system necessitates killing dissenters."
correction: "...and also believe in the import of an Islamic social system, but just don't think that bringing about such a system necessitates killing dissenters."
#888 Posted by PM on July 18, 2007 10:10:13 am
re 886 philosopher:
"I am not in a position to deal with it exhusatively. My stance on apostasy is mailny of pragmatic nature which i have explained in my posts."
That's quite clear, actually. In fact, it's the 'pragmatism' that I see as the problem (even from a, well, pragmatic standpoint. My next comment will explain why)
You write: "I don't think islamic civilization can survive against this powerful westren new_colonialism if it let apostates and dissenters go that easily."
You have to wonder what type of an ideological society will be built upon fear. Here's a hint: Repressive, dull an ultimately stagnant. Do you really think that a civilization can, in this day and age, or any henceforth, survive on fear? The Soviets tried it, and see how they ended up. (Which is not to take away from the tremendous material progress effected by the Commies through the 50s.)
In any event, not all apostates are Western bootlickers, and many liberoons are in fact devout Muslims (to their own minds, if not to yours.) I'm not sure how killing my apostate friends will in any way lessen the threat posed by the rampant Western oppressive machinery. Methinks you need to clarify who your enemies are, and stop getting high on all this gore-fest, which I know can be very appealing to one who spends too much time with head buried in books. Get out a little, will ya! :)
"The liberaloon muslim are absolutely clueless of the nature of islamic religio-spirtual philosophy and think that it can survive without the feedback of islamic social system (they are living in fools' paradise)."
Or maybe many of them (who you choose to label conveniently) are quite aware of the philosophy at some level (even without having spend years poring through Derrida, Neruda and Iqbal) and also believe in the import of an Islamic social system, but just don't think that bringing about such a system doesn't necessitate killing dissenters. Many of them work quietly bringing about changes in banking and investment, for instance, to bring it more in lines with Islamic teachings and spirit.
Don't be such an arrogant ass, Philo. Take the trouble to look beyond the widest of generalizations, tough as it might be; and fun as Cowboys and Injuns can be!
"I am not in a position to deal with it exhusatively. My stance on apostasy is mailny of pragmatic nature which i have explained in my posts."
That's quite clear, actually. In fact, it's the 'pragmatism' that I see as the problem (even from a, well, pragmatic standpoint. My next comment will explain why)
You write: "I don't think islamic civilization can survive against this powerful westren new_colonialism if it let apostates and dissenters go that easily."
You have to wonder what type of an ideological society will be built upon fear. Here's a hint: Repressive, dull an ultimately stagnant. Do you really think that a civilization can, in this day and age, or any henceforth, survive on fear? The Soviets tried it, and see how they ended up. (Which is not to take away from the tremendous material progress effected by the Commies through the 50s.)
In any event, not all apostates are Western bootlickers, and many liberoons are in fact devout Muslims (to their own minds, if not to yours.) I'm not sure how killing my apostate friends will in any way lessen the threat posed by the rampant Western oppressive machinery. Methinks you need to clarify who your enemies are, and stop getting high on all this gore-fest, which I know can be very appealing to one who spends too much time with head buried in books. Get out a little, will ya! :)
"The liberaloon muslim are absolutely clueless of the nature of islamic religio-spirtual philosophy and think that it can survive without the feedback of islamic social system (they are living in fools' paradise)."
Or maybe many of them (who you choose to label conveniently) are quite aware of the philosophy at some level (even without having spend years poring through Derrida, Neruda and Iqbal) and also believe in the import of an Islamic social system, but just don't think that bringing about such a system doesn't necessitate killing dissenters. Many of them work quietly bringing about changes in banking and investment, for instance, to bring it more in lines with Islamic teachings and spirit.
Don't be such an arrogant ass, Philo. Take the trouble to look beyond the widest of generalizations, tough as it might be; and fun as Cowboys and Injuns can be!
#887 Posted by philosopher on July 18, 2007 9:45:43 am
Re:#866 Posted by Humsab
((((Is the world exactly the same as it was in 7th century? When everything has changed then why not change the interpretation of religious instructions if not instructions?))))
Pidare sahib...I agree with you that the world is not the same as it was back in 7th century...but pidare ji....is Muslim world going through the same phase as it was in 800 years ago when it was ruling over the most part of the world????
Now when it is desperately trying to resist the most powerful civilization human history has ever witnessed, how can you expect it to be lenient on these crucial issues?
Pidare sahib....I agree with you that change is necessary but you cannot change the core principles. The form/content of those principles is determined by the social condition+ the phase that ideology is going through.
Islam is a very flexible system however this flexibility is always exploited by the ''oons''. In this scenario when criticising Islam is fashions in the world, a lot of ‘‘pseudo Muslim’’ are exploiting it to pursue their own vested interests. Aryan hirsi, wafa sultan, Rushdie only to name a few are worst example of this ''oon' trend. Letting these people get away with this BS is sheer stupidity.
((((Is the world exactly the same as it was in 7th century? When everything has changed then why not change the interpretation of religious instructions if not instructions?))))
Pidare sahib...I agree with you that the world is not the same as it was back in 7th century...but pidare ji....is Muslim world going through the same phase as it was in 800 years ago when it was ruling over the most part of the world????
Now when it is desperately trying to resist the most powerful civilization human history has ever witnessed, how can you expect it to be lenient on these crucial issues?
Pidare sahib....I agree with you that change is necessary but you cannot change the core principles. The form/content of those principles is determined by the social condition+ the phase that ideology is going through.
Islam is a very flexible system however this flexibility is always exploited by the ''oons''. In this scenario when criticising Islam is fashions in the world, a lot of ‘‘pseudo Muslim’’ are exploiting it to pursue their own vested interests. Aryan hirsi, wafa sultan, Rushdie only to name a few are worst example of this ''oon' trend. Letting these people get away with this BS is sheer stupidity.
#886 Posted by philosopher on July 18, 2007 9:19:08 am
Re:#867 Posted by PM
Patrick ji...you have just rephrased your questions in this post. Do you want me to rephrase my answers now? The quotation that you have taken from my posts explain my position on this issue. As for as the complementary relation of totalitarianism is concrened, i don't agree with your opinion.
You have asked me to define ''apostasy' well...you know that my stance on death penality of apostate is only couple of weeks old.....so it's still a new born baby(a cruel one though..)
I am not in a position to deal with it exhusatively. My stance on apostasy is mailny of pragmatic nature which i have explained in my posts.
I don't think islamic civilization can survive against this powerful westren new_colonialism if it let apostates and dissenters go that easily.
The liberaloon muslim are absolutly clueless of the nature of islamic religio-spirtual philosophy and think that it can survive without the feedback of islamic social system(they are living in fools' paradise).
Only a couple weeks ago i was against the death penality of apostate but i don't see any practical utility of that''oon'' theory.
More later.
(this new format is just pissing me of)
Patrick ji...you have just rephrased your questions in this post. Do you want me to rephrase my answers now? The quotation that you have taken from my posts explain my position on this issue. As for as the complementary relation of totalitarianism is concrened, i don't agree with your opinion.
You have asked me to define ''apostasy' well...you know that my stance on death penality of apostate is only couple of weeks old.....so it's still a new born baby(a cruel one though..)
I am not in a position to deal with it exhusatively. My stance on apostasy is mailny of pragmatic nature which i have explained in my posts.
I don't think islamic civilization can survive against this powerful westren new_colonialism if it let apostates and dissenters go that easily.
The liberaloon muslim are absolutly clueless of the nature of islamic religio-spirtual philosophy and think that it can survive without the feedback of islamic social system(they are living in fools' paradise).
Only a couple weeks ago i was against the death penality of apostate but i don't see any practical utility of that''oon'' theory.
More later.
(this new format is just pissing me of)
#885 Posted by PM on July 18, 2007 9:06:52 am
Zeemax:
I guess I was working on incomplete information, or even disinformation, gleaned from television and newspaper reports. My "understanding", most likely mistaken in the light of what you point out, was that the the parents were being being called in to increase the number of 'hostages'. But the version of the story you present does make more sense and sound more plausible, I will admit.
Thanks for your patience in explaining.
I guess I was working on incomplete information, or even disinformation, gleaned from television and newspaper reports. My "understanding", most likely mistaken in the light of what you point out, was that the the parents were being being called in to increase the number of 'hostages'. But the version of the story you present does make more sense and sound more plausible, I will admit.
Thanks for your patience in explaining.
#884 Posted by philosopher on July 18, 2007 8:34:24 am
Re:#879 Posted by Urstruly
Jean-Paul Sartre 1961
Preface to Frantz Fanon’s “Wretched of the Earth''
(There is an excerpt from that preface)
They would do well to read Fanon; for he shows clearly that this irrepressible violence is neither sound and fury, nor the resurrection of savage instincts, nor even the effect of resentment: it is man re-creating himself. I think we understood this truth at one time, but we have forgotten it — that no gentleness can efface the marks of violence; only violence itself can destroy them. The native cures himself of colonial neurosis by thrusting out the settler through force of arms.
When his rage boils over, he rediscovers his lost innocence and he comes to know himself in that he himself creates his self. Far removed from his war, we consider it as a triumph of barbarism; but of its own volition it achieves, slowly but surely, the emancipation of the rebel, for bit by bit it destroys in him and around him the colonial gloom. Once begun, it is a war that gives no quarter. You may fear or be feared; that is to say, abandon yourself to the disassociations of a sham existence or conquer your birthright of unity.
(but i simply love this paragraph)
When the peasant takes a gun in his hands, the old myths grow dim and the prohibitions are one by one forgotten. The rebel’s weapon is the proof of his humanity. For in the first days of the revolt you must kill: to shoot down a European is to kill two birds with one stone, to destroy an oppressor and the man he oppresses at the same time: there remain a dead man, and a free man; the survivor, for the first time, feels a national soil under his foot. At this moment the Nation does not shrink from him; wherever he goes, wherever he may be, she is; she follows, and is never lost to view, for she is one with his liberty.
This excerpt represents most of my thoughts and feelings.
Jean-Paul Sartre 1961
Preface to Frantz Fanon’s “Wretched of the Earth''
(There is an excerpt from that preface)
They would do well to read Fanon; for he shows clearly that this irrepressible violence is neither sound and fury, nor the resurrection of savage instincts, nor even the effect of resentment: it is man re-creating himself. I think we understood this truth at one time, but we have forgotten it — that no gentleness can efface the marks of violence; only violence itself can destroy them. The native cures himself of colonial neurosis by thrusting out the settler through force of arms.
When his rage boils over, he rediscovers his lost innocence and he comes to know himself in that he himself creates his self. Far removed from his war, we consider it as a triumph of barbarism; but of its own volition it achieves, slowly but surely, the emancipation of the rebel, for bit by bit it destroys in him and around him the colonial gloom. Once begun, it is a war that gives no quarter. You may fear or be feared; that is to say, abandon yourself to the disassociations of a sham existence or conquer your birthright of unity.
(but i simply love this paragraph)
When the peasant takes a gun in his hands, the old myths grow dim and the prohibitions are one by one forgotten. The rebel’s weapon is the proof of his humanity. For in the first days of the revolt you must kill: to shoot down a European is to kill two birds with one stone, to destroy an oppressor and the man he oppresses at the same time: there remain a dead man, and a free man; the survivor, for the first time, feels a national soil under his foot. At this moment the Nation does not shrink from him; wherever he goes, wherever he may be, she is; she follows, and is never lost to view, for she is one with his liberty.
This excerpt represents most of my thoughts and feelings.
#883 Posted by Urstruly on July 18, 2007 8:15:45 am
Re: # 881
There were two schools in Lal Masjid Complex; Jamiah Faridiah for boys and Jamiah Hafsa for girls. The total strength of both schools together was 7000+. If we tally the number of students who left the school between the start of seige and final masacre, the number is hardly 1500-2000. Lets assume for arguments sake that half of 7000 got out, this leaves us about 3000 who are unaccounted for- meaning, masacred
There were two schools in Lal Masjid Complex; Jamiah Faridiah for boys and Jamiah Hafsa for girls. The total strength of both schools together was 7000+. If we tally the number of students who left the school between the start of seige and final masacre, the number is hardly 1500-2000. Lets assume for arguments sake that half of 7000 got out, this leaves us about 3000 who are unaccounted for- meaning, masacred
#882 Posted by echoboom on July 18, 2007 7:54:46 am
876:Zeemax
#873 Posted by PM,
Yaar PM, I'm seriously having doubts about your powers of comprehension after your last few posts.
Zee:
PM is the only guy on CHOWK who I would never accuse of that.
He is thoroughly sincere in his agenda. He is a fundamentalist extremist orthodox rationalist...and he does smoulder in the fire which is the price one pays for the Faustian bargain...
But if I was a Khalifa in an Islamic State, I would make him my closest confidante & advisor...Just as Barmaka family, who were brahmins/barmakaas who were the prime ministers during Abbasi caliphate..If they had names like Jaffar, that should not fool anyone.
My only beef with Masadi is that while I talk about ground-realities ( technology) he talks about the esoterics (Theoritical physics)...otherwise on a pure intellectual level he is 100% right.
#873 Posted by PM,
Yaar PM, I'm seriously having doubts about your powers of comprehension after your last few posts.
Zee:
PM is the only guy on CHOWK who I would never accuse of that.
He is thoroughly sincere in his agenda. He is a fundamentalist extremist orthodox rationalist...and he does smoulder in the fire which is the price one pays for the Faustian bargain...
But if I was a Khalifa in an Islamic State, I would make him my closest confidante & advisor...Just as Barmaka family, who were brahmins/barmakaas who were the prime ministers during Abbasi caliphate..If they had names like Jaffar, that should not fool anyone.
My only beef with Masadi is that while I talk about ground-realities ( technology) he talks about the esoterics (Theoritical physics)...otherwise on a pure intellectual level he is 100% right.
#881 Posted by arjun2 on July 18, 2007 7:52:07 am
#879 Posted by Urstruly on July 18, 2007 7:40:46 am
Why are they so quiet about Islamabad School Masacre of close to 3000 students.?
I'd like that number to get accepted as the casualty count as much as any other jihadi-hating person but COME ON!!...3000? you're fucking kidding yourself...
I think 1000 is more accurate...
Why are they so quiet about Islamabad School Masacre of close to 3000 students.?
I'd like that number to get accepted as the casualty count as much as any other jihadi-hating person but COME ON!!...3000? you're fucking kidding yourself...
I think 1000 is more accurate...
#880 Posted by echoboom on July 18, 2007 7:45:28 am
PM:#847
I have at least two friends who were born into conservative Muslim families. One is a haafiz, in fact. Both of them, by the age of 18, decided that Islam didn't fit their itellectual or spiritual needs. One is an atheist, the other agnostic. Neither goes to masjid because they do agree that hypocrisy is just wrong. It is only for fear of death that they will sometimes go as Muslims. (Can you blame them?)
Neither of the two engages in denigration of Islam-- to them its as good or bad as most religions; though I have no doubt that, owing to their very generous, caring personalities, they do influence others even in their (non)religiousness. (That's an easy thing to do in over-religionized Pakistan, actually).
____________________________________________________________
No No No! People like these, in fact very well known & highly valued people have voiced their opinions in open fora & nothing ever happened to them...in fact on STATE TV in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan.
Now that was before US was a "friend"...but the media was controlled by commie intellectuals.
Today's Pakistan & Muslims is reactionary because of the US & the western world has not helped in getting themselves viewed as Satans.
PM: this is NOT an Islamic or Christian issue.
It is a shame that day in and day out Islam & Muslims are in the dock here on CHOWK...especially by those who do not even subscribe to the bedrock..i.e God, prophets, & the books.
Please , for a change, discuss greatness of Hitler, rue over allies win overGermany, wish for more Holocausts for jews, evils of democracy and other assorted subjects which have the potential to test your free will in the Land of bilk-&-money.
It is pretty safe to kick those might pose a threat to your way of life...please go after those today who already are THE BIGGEST threat to humanity: The Satanic ideology of the Ooon Oonns.
Return to this "fruitful" discussion once you have paid your dues there ( this is for all the Ooons Ooons who have an itch to follow the grand western progress to ditch theire own parents, religion, children, neighbors in order to travel farther & farther to do their do-gooding & saving & harvesting of souls)
I have at least two friends who were born into conservative Muslim families. One is a haafiz, in fact. Both of them, by the age of 18, decided that Islam didn't fit their itellectual or spiritual needs. One is an atheist, the other agnostic. Neither goes to masjid because they do agree that hypocrisy is just wrong. It is only for fear of death that they will sometimes go as Muslims. (Can you blame them?)
Neither of the two engages in denigration of Islam-- to them its as good or bad as most religions; though I have no doubt that, owing to their very generous, caring personalities, they do influence others even in their (non)religiousness. (That's an easy thing to do in over-religionized Pakistan, actually).
____________________________________________________________
No No No! People like these, in fact very well known & highly valued people have voiced their opinions in open fora & nothing ever happened to them...in fact on STATE TV in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan.
Now that was before US was a "friend"...but the media was controlled by commie intellectuals.
Today's Pakistan & Muslims is reactionary because of the US & the western world has not helped in getting themselves viewed as Satans.
PM: this is NOT an Islamic or Christian issue.
It is a shame that day in and day out Islam & Muslims are in the dock here on CHOWK...especially by those who do not even subscribe to the bedrock..i.e God, prophets, & the books.
Please , for a change, discuss greatness of Hitler, rue over allies win overGermany, wish for more Holocausts for jews, evils of democracy and other assorted subjects which have the potential to test your free will in the Land of bilk-&-money.
It is pretty safe to kick those might pose a threat to your way of life...please go after those today who already are THE BIGGEST threat to humanity: The Satanic ideology of the Ooon Oonns.
Return to this "fruitful" discussion once you have paid your dues there ( this is for all the Ooons Ooons who have an itch to follow the grand western progress to ditch theire own parents, religion, children, neighbors in order to travel farther & farther to do their do-gooding & saving & harvesting of souls)
#879 Posted by Urstruly on July 18, 2007 7:40:46 am
WHERE THE HELL ARE WETERN HUMAN RIGHTS ORGS NOW
Is the only purpose of these hypocrite vultures (HR Orgs) is to promote the interests of Western colonial interests only? Why are they so quiet about Islamabad School Masacre of close to 3000 students.?
Is the only purpose of these hypocrite vultures (HR Orgs) is to promote the interests of Western colonial interests only? Why are they so quiet about Islamabad School Masacre of close to 3000 students.?
#878 Posted by zeemax on July 18, 2007 7:40:17 am
#877 Posted by PM,
Ponder over the following. Perhaps you get it this time around:
1) The only 'children' with anywhere to go were the day-scholars who left when the trouble began at noon on 3rd July.
2) The 'live-in' children were either all orphans, or those who had been deposited there by parents who were too poor to afford them. Example of these were the two sisters aged 8-10 who have been taken into care by Ch. Shujaat (as per Ghazi's explicit wishes)who had been left there by their destitute mother who appeared on TV with them a few days ago.
3) Both Ghazi as well as Umme-Hassaan had said many times during the siege that the parents should be allowed in, to whom they could hand over their children after verifying their claims so that they don't fall into wrong hands. The parents whom you mention have all confirmed this fact, many of whom had personally spoken to Umme-Hassaan by cellphone. However, the troops refused to let any parent in.
So what 'consentability' shentability are you talking about?
Ponder over the following. Perhaps you get it this time around:
1) The only 'children' with anywhere to go were the day-scholars who left when the trouble began at noon on 3rd July.
2) The 'live-in' children were either all orphans, or those who had been deposited there by parents who were too poor to afford them. Example of these were the two sisters aged 8-10 who have been taken into care by Ch. Shujaat (as per Ghazi's explicit wishes)who had been left there by their destitute mother who appeared on TV with them a few days ago.
3) Both Ghazi as well as Umme-Hassaan had said many times during the siege that the parents should be allowed in, to whom they could hand over their children after verifying their claims so that they don't fall into wrong hands. The parents whom you mention have all confirmed this fact, many of whom had personally spoken to Umme-Hassaan by cellphone. However, the troops refused to let any parent in.
So what 'consentability' shentability are you talking about?
#877 Posted by PM on July 18, 2007 6:26:01 am
Zeemax, don't be so dim. Focus on the word "CHILDREN". Many of the parents had children in their teens and even pre-teens. Even assuming those children were filled with the jazba of the oldre ones who wanted to stay on, wouldn't it have been the right thing to force them to leave, given that, unarmed, they'd be in tremendous danger in the event of a storming of the place?
In any case, my original point had to do with the question of consent and consentability of children to lay down their lives for the Ghazi.
In any case, my original point had to do with the question of consent and consentability of children to lay down their lives for the Ghazi.
#876 Posted by zeemax on July 18, 2007 5:57:45 am
#873 Posted by PM,
Yaar PM, I'm seriously having doubts about your powers of comprehension after your last few posts.
Bhai, the Zafar Abbas article is talking about the commitment of the students, and not of their parents.
Now try again....
I'll respond re your other posts a bit later.
Yaar PM, I'm seriously having doubts about your powers of comprehension after your last few posts.
Bhai, the Zafar Abbas article is talking about the commitment of the students, and not of their parents.
Now try again....
I'll respond re your other posts a bit later.
#875 Posted by iron_mask on July 18, 2007 5:57:33 am
Re: # 870
please go here and make your contributions. The more like minded people we have the better it is
the link http://chowk.com/unplugged/t/42340
please go here and make your contributions. The more like minded people we have the better it is
the link http://chowk.com/unplugged/t/42340
#874 Posted by iron_mask on July 18, 2007 5:51:14 am
#870 tell them PM. I have been saying this right from day one.
this threaded format really sucks big time. It a pain in the butt to use. But Chowk Staff have no use for us. Please go to the unplugged section (no not off the wall but chowk related section and put in your peniies worth on the thread I started there).
this threaded format really sucks big time. It a pain in the butt to use. But Chowk Staff have no use for us. Please go to the unplugged section (no not off the wall but chowk related section and put in your peniies worth on the thread I started there).
#873 Posted by PM on July 18, 2007 5:49:27 am
re. Zafar Abbas article:
"Throughout the crisis the authorities kept giving the impression that most of those inside the Mosque-Madressah complex were hostage to a situation, and if given a chance, would opt to come out and leave the militants alone to fight with the security forces.
All this is fast proving to be wrong. ... Scores of men and women who stayed back with a few dozen armed militants can best be described as highly committed religious extremists."
What about the scores of children whose parents waiting anxiously for them to exit? Were they also in the complex out of a sense of commitment to the cause?
"Throughout the crisis the authorities kept giving the impression that most of those inside the Mosque-Madressah complex were hostage to a situation, and if given a chance, would opt to come out and leave the militants alone to fight with the security forces.
All this is fast proving to be wrong. ... Scores of men and women who stayed back with a few dozen armed militants can best be described as highly committed religious extremists."
What about the scores of children whose parents waiting anxiously for them to exit? Were they also in the complex out of a sense of commitment to the cause?
#872 Posted by iron_mask on July 18, 2007 5:49:18 am
Re: # 867
If I may,I feel this discussion on "total ideological system" is a non-sequitur.
Nothing like is possible - PM in a manner of speaking alludes to this in #867. It was never possible, it will never be possible and in the future might just become impossible. There might be a few special conditions under which this can happen, but given human endeavours of the last few centuries this is well neigh imposs.
here is a description (i have anonamised it) read it and mull it over
In xxx, ABCD began implementing very controversial policies that introduced a new religion. Reportedly, he began referring to himself as a god when meeting with politicians and he was referred to as God on occasion in public documents. A sacred precinct was set apart for his worship and two temples were erected for worship of him. He would appear here on occasions, dressed and and demanding that those in his presence adopt sycophantic methods of acknowledging him.
What would you think of ABCD? He is a real historical character (and nothing to do with the Prophet)
Every total ideological system in this world has failed to live beyond a few centuries. Adaptability and evolvability are two characteristics whichshould nurtured and cherished - for without them the ideological system will become useless and worthless and moribund.
If I may,I feel this discussion on "total ideological system" is a non-sequitur.
Nothing like is possible - PM in a manner of speaking alludes to this in #867. It was never possible, it will never be possible and in the future might just become impossible. There might be a few special conditions under which this can happen, but given human endeavours of the last few centuries this is well neigh imposs.
here is a description (i have anonamised it) read it and mull it over
In xxx, ABCD began implementing very controversial policies that introduced a new religion. Reportedly, he began referring to himself as a god when meeting with politicians and he was referred to as God on occasion in public documents. A sacred precinct was set apart for his worship and two temples were erected for worship of him. He would appear here on occasions, dressed and and demanding that those in his presence adopt sycophantic methods of acknowledging him.
What would you think of ABCD? He is a real historical character (and nothing to do with the Prophet)
Every total ideological system in this world has failed to live beyond a few centuries. Adaptability and evolvability are two characteristics whichshould nurtured and cherished - for without them the ideological system will become useless and worthless and moribund.
#871 Posted by majumdar on July 18, 2007 5:40:09 am
PM Sahib,
Re: # 869
(Both Calivin and masadi see their respective Scriptures as divine and the Final Word.)
I dont know about Calvin but the good thing about Masadi sahib is that even if he believes that his scripture is the final word he does not deem it necessary to slaughter or persecute those who don't agree with him.
Regards
Re: # 869
(Both Calivin and masadi see their respective Scriptures as divine and the Final Word.)
I dont know about Calvin but the good thing about Masadi sahib is that even if he believes that his scripture is the final word he does not deem it necessary to slaughter or persecute those who don't agree with him.
Regards
#870 Posted by PM on July 18, 2007 5:37:27 am
CHOWKSTAFF!!!
Not all of us have DSL/CABLE/Tx connections. This manner of having to reload the entire interact forum each time we submit a post or refresh the page is bloody insane!!
If you don't do something to fix this, I will be forced to quit chowk, which will be a very, very thing, mostly owing to the fact taht I know I won't even be missed. :(
Not all of us have DSL/CABLE/Tx connections. This manner of having to reload the entire interact forum each time we submit a post or refresh the page is bloody insane!!
If you don't do something to fix this, I will be forced to quit chowk, which will be a very, very thing, mostly owing to the fact taht I know I won't even be missed. :(
#869 Posted by PM on July 18, 2007 5:32:43 am
re. Zeemax:
"That is why I call masadi a hypocrite. He considers a petty transitional matter like usurping global resources a crime, which all empires do in their time, while he condones an attack on the entire Islamic faith as personal judgment and advocates looking in the other direction." (emphasis added)
Is this guy for real?? Is he aware of the number of references in the Qur'an to justice and equity in business dealings??
Moreover, isn't it really rich that someone who, not more than two weeks ago, confidently claimed that "Islam does not need protecting by any individual" now finds that an individual, by merely rejecting the Islam he inherited from his parents, poses a threat or engages in "an attack on the entire Islamic faith" !!!
"That is why I call masadi a hypocrite. He considers a petty transitional matter like usurping global resources a crime, which all empires do in their time, while he condones an attack on the entire Islamic faith as personal judgment and advocates looking in the other direction." (emphasis added)
Is this guy for real?? Is he aware of the number of references in the Qur'an to justice and equity in business dealings??
Moreover, isn't it really rich that someone who, not more than two weeks ago, confidently claimed that "Islam does not need protecting by any individual" now finds that an individual, by merely rejecting the Islam he inherited from his parents, poses a threat or engages in "an attack on the entire Islamic faith" !!!
#868 Posted by PM on July 18, 2007 5:21:36 am
To the interactor who likened masadi to Calvin:
Both Calivin and masadi see their respective Scriptures as divine and the Final Word. The similarity begins and ends there. You do masadi sahib a big injustice in implying that either intellectually or temperamentally his approach is anything like Calvin's nonrational treatment of the Bible.
Both Calivin and masadi see their respective Scriptures as divine and the Final Word. The similarity begins and ends there. You do masadi sahib a big injustice in implying that either intellectually or temperamentally his approach is anything like Calvin's nonrational treatment of the Bible.
#867 Posted by PM on July 18, 2007 4:24:30 am
kaal,
The following post might help clear up my reservations for Philospher's 'total' ideological system. I have no problems with the content, only with the method, so to speak. (and let's no get started with how Method is also part of Content, now, okay! It's too early in the day for that) :-)
re. Philosopher #794:
"The internal structure of ideology will determine what it needs to preserve itself against all other ideologies and systems.At the end of the day its all down to the ''acceptence'' of the basics of that ideology.if you accpet that all your questions are answered."
Yes, the internal structure (obviously) determines what it needs to preserve itself. But preservation, or the requirements for preservation, cannot be seen divorced of externalities, which keep changing. The point I've been trying to make for some time is this: Islam is no longer the nascent, vulnerable socio-political entity of the 7th century. Whether it can ever be a political entity of that kind is quite impossible, in fact, except in pockets of tribal areas and the like. (And thank God for that!) As a social force, it remains a powerful and relevant entity (And thank God for that too!).
What might have been important for its preservation 14 centuries ago will no longer be so. In fact, attempts to follow those prescriptions may result in damage to the ideology, as it gets distorted and distasteful.
In any case, understand this, miaN... attempts to bring about a totalitarian Islamic polity (which is EXACTLY what you seem to be suggesting is a goal of Islamic ideology) will do little more than render you a pariah among even the few progressive, successful, Islamic nations.
Let the first apostate-killing be sanctioned and carried out in Pakistan and then hold your breathe for the fall-out!
In an earlier post, your wrote:
" In this situation Islamic civilization needs a comprehensive ideological system to fight other ideologies which are trying to overcome/penetrate it. If we stick to Masadi's version in this situation we won't be having even this moderate version after a couple of decades."
This need for a comprehensive ideological system to fight other ideologies is not unique to Islam. EVERY IDEOLOGY, by definition, has this need. In the civilized world, even in the less-cvilized world of globalized capitalism, ideologies have to buy their keep through ideas, not coercion. It says something about the sturdiness or vulnerability of your ideology, and the power or powerlessness of the ideas within, if you need to kill the holders of other opinions to preserve your own.
I do not think that Islam is so impoverished and vulnerable in the ideas department that it dissent needs to be put down with harsheness, or that any dissent is to be viewed as a threat to the system itself, a position which you and echoboom seem clearly to hold, though echo in his customary
style is happy to simply foxtrot around the issue.
You write:
"how would we implement islamic family laws if we don't have islamic socio-political system? what if liberaloon muslims like 'irshad manji' start campaigning in support of the lesbian marriages?? how would you stop them? With 'piyaar mohabbat bhaari batain???"
You are muddying the waters here, miaN. Don't put too much on your plate. We're talking about how to handle dissent. How to deal with individuals who try to introduce unIslamic ideas to the political ideology and attempt to stay within the fold is a completely different issue.
Finally, you didn't do justice to my question re. apostasy. I specifically asked you to consider the question in the light of those who never ACCEPTED Islam to begin with. Okay, let me take it out of the purely theoretical realm... I have at least two friends who were born into conservative Muslim families. One is a haafiz, in fact. Both of them, by the age of 18, decided that Islam didn't fit their itellectual or spiritual needs. One is an atheist, the other agnostic. Neither goes to masjid because they do agree that hypocrisy is just wrong. It is only for fear of death that they will sometimes go as Muslims. (Can you blame them?)
Neither of the two engages in denigration of Islam-- to them its as good or bad as most religions; though I have no doubt that, owing to their very generous, caring personalities, they do influence others even in their (non)religiousness. (That's an easy thing to do in over-religionized Pakistan, actually).
So tell me... First, are the Apostates? Neither can be said to have consciously, and in maturity, chosen Islam in the fisrt place.
Will you, like Zeemax, deprive them of their right to choose in the fisrt place? Will you, like echoboom, present a specious arguement, that we don't choose to be born in the first place; so we have no choice in this either-- therby rejecting the whole Free Will deal so important to Isalm?
(We'll deal with those who choose Islam and later change their minds some other time.)
Second, (assuming they qualify as apostates) should they be deprived of their heads by God- and opposition-fearing Muslims were they to be found out, or publicly renounce their religion? Actually, here's the REAL question: WOULD YOU PULL THE TRIGGER,-- assuming there were no legal consequences, which there won't, of course, in your Islamic ideological state? Please answer.
Well, take it from there.
In the meanwhile, you might consider reading Karl Popper's The Open Society and Its Enemies if you're serious about seeing Islam sprout a living, vibrant society as opposed to one where, to quote Masadi saheb, " stunts growth and prevents thinking from developing."
rgds,
The following post might help clear up my reservations for Philospher's 'total' ideological system. I have no problems with the content, only with the method, so to speak. (and let's no get started with how Method is also part of Content, now, okay! It's too early in the day for that) :-)
re. Philosopher #794:
"The internal structure of ideology will determine what it needs to preserve itself against all other ideologies and systems.At the end of the day its all down to the ''acceptence'' of the basics of that ideology.if you accpet that all your questions are answered."
Yes, the internal structure (obviously) determines what it needs to preserve itself. But preservation, or the requirements for preservation, cannot be seen divorced of externalities, which keep changing. The point I've been trying to make for some time is this: Islam is no longer the nascent, vulnerable socio-political entity of the 7th century. Whether it can ever be a political entity of that kind is quite impossible, in fact, except in pockets of tribal areas and the like. (And thank God for that!) As a social force, it remains a powerful and relevant entity (And thank God for that too!).
What might have been important for its preservation 14 centuries ago will no longer be so. In fact, attempts to follow those prescriptions may result in damage to the ideology, as it gets distorted and distasteful.
In any case, understand this, miaN... attempts to bring about a totalitarian Islamic polity (which is EXACTLY what you seem to be suggesting is a goal of Islamic ideology) will do little more than render you a pariah among even the few progressive, successful, Islamic nations.
Let the first apostate-killing be sanctioned and carried out in Pakistan and then hold your breathe for the fall-out!
In an earlier post, your wrote:
" In this situation Islamic civilization needs a comprehensive ideological system to fight other ideologies which are trying to overcome/penetrate it. If we stick to Masadi's version in this situation we won't be having even this moderate version after a couple of decades."
This need for a comprehensive ideological system to fight other ideologies is not unique to Islam. EVERY IDEOLOGY, by definition, has this need. In the civilized world, even in the less-cvilized world of globalized capitalism, ideologies have to buy their keep through ideas, not coercion. It says something about the sturdiness or vulnerability of your ideology, and the power or powerlessness of the ideas within, if you need to kill the holders of other opinions to preserve your own.
I do not think that Islam is so impoverished and vulnerable in the ideas department that it dissent needs to be put down with harsheness, or that any dissent is to be viewed as a threat to the system itself, a position which you and echoboom seem clearly to hold, though echo in his customary
style is happy to simply foxtrot around the issue.
You write:
"how would we implement islamic family laws if we don't have islamic socio-political system? what if liberaloon muslims like 'irshad manji' start campaigning in support of the lesbian marriages?? how would you stop them? With 'piyaar mohabbat bhaari batain???"
You are muddying the waters here, miaN. Don't put too much on your plate. We're talking about how to handle dissent. How to deal with individuals who try to introduce unIslamic ideas to the political ideology and attempt to stay within the fold is a completely different issue.
Finally, you didn't do justice to my question re. apostasy. I specifically asked you to consider the question in the light of those who never ACCEPTED Islam to begin with. Okay, let me take it out of the purely theoretical realm... I have at least two friends who were born into conservative Muslim families. One is a haafiz, in fact. Both of them, by the age of 18, decided that Islam didn't fit their itellectual or spiritual needs. One is an atheist, the other agnostic. Neither goes to masjid because they do agree that hypocrisy is just wrong. It is only for fear of death that they will sometimes go as Muslims. (Can you blame them?)
Neither of the two engages in denigration of Islam-- to them its as good or bad as most religions; though I have no doubt that, owing to their very generous, caring personalities, they do influence others even in their (non)religiousness. (That's an easy thing to do in over-religionized Pakistan, actually).
So tell me... First, are the Apostates? Neither can be said to have consciously, and in maturity, chosen Islam in the fisrt place.
Will you, like Zeemax, deprive them of their right to choose in the fisrt place? Will you, like echoboom, present a specious arguement, that we don't choose to be born in the first place; so we have no choice in this either-- therby rejecting the whole Free Will deal so important to Isalm?
(We'll deal with those who choose Islam and later change their minds some other time.)
Second, (assuming they qualify as apostates) should they be deprived of their heads by God- and opposition-fearing Muslims were they to be found out, or publicly renounce their religion? Actually, here's the REAL question: WOULD YOU PULL THE TRIGGER,-- assuming there were no legal consequences, which there won't, of course, in your Islamic ideological state? Please answer.
Well, take it from there.
In the meanwhile, you might consider reading Karl Popper's The Open Society and Its Enemies if you're serious about seeing Islam sprout a living, vibrant society as opposed to one where, to quote Masadi saheb, " stunts growth and prevents thinking from developing."
rgds,
#866 Posted by Humsab on July 18, 2007 3:58:54 am
Philosopher ji
You know about that statement that 'Change' is the only constant in the world and everything else keeps on changing and evolving?
Then why you want your religion to be fossilised in 7th century? When God has promised to protect it in whichever form he feels it to be kept then let him do this job. Do you think you are more powerful then him to do his job?
Is the world exactly the same as it was in 7th century? When everything has changed then why not change the interpretation of religious instructions if not instructions?
Regards
You know about that statement that 'Change' is the only constant in the world and everything else keeps on changing and evolving?
Then why you want your religion to be fossilised in 7th century? When God has promised to protect it in whichever form he feels it to be kept then let him do this job. Do you think you are more powerful then him to do his job?
Is the world exactly the same as it was in 7th century? When everything has changed then why not change the interpretation of religious instructions if not instructions?
Regards
#865 Posted by zeemax on July 18, 2007 3:56:39 am
If this doesn't cure Dr. Qaum-e-Lut Bhoy from his delusions, I don't know what will ...
Musharraf’s moment of truth
By Zaffar Abbas
It has been more than a week since the massive operation by the army’s elite (anti-terrorist) special services group eliminated what had come to be known as the Lal Masjid Brigade, but sounds from the bloody finale have continued to reverberate across the country in more ways than one.
Certainly the situation is more alarming than what many had earlier thought, particularly if seen in the light of the radical views of the non-combatant survivors of the religious complex. Coupled with that has been the angry reaction in a large section of the population, mainly due to the lack of transparency about the civilian casualties.
And a much stronger reaction by the Islamic militants has come in the form of suicide attacks in North West Pakistan. And now Islamabad. All this makes the situation look even more precarious.
The big question is: Is the country really poised on a powder-keg of Talibanisation, or the fissures seen in the aftermath of the Lal Masjid crackdown are just a passing phase? If the former is true, then does it imply the political and security establishment has once again been caught unaware of how deep-rooted the new wave of Islamism is?
But then Lal Masjid was never an issue into itself. The illegal actions of the mosque brigade and the open defiance by the armed militants in the heart of Islamabad had perhaps made the crackdown witnessed last week almost inevitable.
However, a deeper look into the malaise suggests that Lal Masjid was just a symptom of what is increasingly looking like creeping Talibanisation in the country. If not handled with determination and clarity of purpose, that may well continue its march from the tribal areas towards the settled regions beyond the North West Frontier soon and start to swallow the traditional political forces, including the mainstream Islamic groups that still believe in a democratic order.
So, little wonder that among those seriously worried about this disturbing trend is also the leader of the biggest pro-democracy Islamic group in the country, Maulana Fazlur Rehman.
Based on the assessment of several political and security analysts, it can be said that if there is at all a strategy to deal with the rising tide of religious extremism, it is not working. In fact, many believe the government’s handling of various issues from Waziristan to Bajaur, and madressah reforms to the Lal Masjid affair, is indicative of the fact that such issues are still being handled on a piecemeal basis, with no sign of an effective, coherent strategy.
Certainly the Lal Masjid affair was treated as an isolated phenomenon where the mission was to deal with a couple of hard-line clerics who, along with a bunch of militants, had turned against their one-time benefactors.
Throughout the crisis the authorities kept giving the impression that most of those inside the Mosque-Madressah complex were hostage to a situation, and if given a chance, would opt to come out and leave the militants alone to fight with the security forces.
All this is fast proving to be wrong. Many did come out voluntarily on the first day of the security siege to avoid getting killed, which was indeed a success of the authorities.
But scores of men and women who stayed back with a few dozen armed militants can best be described as highly committed religious extremists.
Still, they were unarmed civilians, and preferred to stay back, and became victim of a brutal situation. Those who survived, particularly the women, show they have nothing but praise for the people who died inside the mosque.
.... Dawn
Musharraf’s moment of truth
By Zaffar Abbas
It has been more than a week since the massive operation by the army’s elite (anti-terrorist) special services group eliminated what had come to be known as the Lal Masjid Brigade, but sounds from the bloody finale have continued to reverberate across the country in more ways than one.
Certainly the situation is more alarming than what many had earlier thought, particularly if seen in the light of the radical views of the non-combatant survivors of the religious complex. Coupled with that has been the angry reaction in a large section of the population, mainly due to the lack of transparency about the civilian casualties.
And a much stronger reaction by the Islamic militants has come in the form of suicide attacks in North West Pakistan. And now Islamabad. All this makes the situation look even more precarious.
The big question is: Is the country really poised on a powder-keg of Talibanisation, or the fissures seen in the aftermath of the Lal Masjid crackdown are just a passing phase? If the former is true, then does it imply the political and security establishment has once again been caught unaware of how deep-rooted the new wave of Islamism is?
But then Lal Masjid was never an issue into itself. The illegal actions of the mosque brigade and the open defiance by the armed militants in the heart of Islamabad had perhaps made the crackdown witnessed last week almost inevitable.
However, a deeper look into the malaise suggests that Lal Masjid was just a symptom of what is increasingly looking like creeping Talibanisation in the country. If not handled with determination and clarity of purpose, that may well continue its march from the tribal areas towards the settled regions beyond the North West Frontier soon and start to swallow the traditional political forces, including the mainstream Islamic groups that still believe in a democratic order.
So, little wonder that among those seriously worried about this disturbing trend is also the leader of the biggest pro-democracy Islamic group in the country, Maulana Fazlur Rehman.
Based on the assessment of several political and security analysts, it can be said that if there is at all a strategy to deal with the rising tide of religious extremism, it is not working. In fact, many believe the government’s handling of various issues from Waziristan to Bajaur, and madressah reforms to the Lal Masjid affair, is indicative of the fact that such issues are still being handled on a piecemeal basis, with no sign of an effective, coherent strategy.
Certainly the Lal Masjid affair was treated as an isolated phenomenon where the mission was to deal with a couple of hard-line clerics who, along with a bunch of militants, had turned against their one-time benefactors.
Throughout the crisis the authorities kept giving the impression that most of those inside the Mosque-Madressah complex were hostage to a situation, and if given a chance, would opt to come out and leave the militants alone to fight with the security forces.
All this is fast proving to be wrong. Many did come out voluntarily on the first day of the security siege to avoid getting killed, which was indeed a success of the authorities.
But scores of men and women who stayed back with a few dozen armed militants can best be described as highly committed religious extremists.
Still, they were unarmed civilians, and preferred to stay back, and became victim of a brutal situation. Those who survived, particularly the women, show they have nothing but praise for the people who died inside the mosque.
.... Dawn
#864 Posted by masadi on July 18, 2007 1:17:16 am
From the WIKI regarding apostasy and Islam
"W. Heffening states that in Qur'an "the apostate is threatened with punishment in the next world only" and "in traditions, there is little echo of these punishments in the next world ... and instead, we have in many traditions a new element, the death penalty." [6] Heffening states that Shafi'is interpret verse 2:217 as adducing the main evidence for the death penalty in Qur'an. Wael Hallaq states the death penalty was a new element added later and "reflects a later reality and does not stand in accord with the deeds of the Prophet." He further states that "nothing in the law governing apostate and apostasy derives from the letter of the holy text." [7]
The dissenting Shia jurist Grand Ayatollah Hossein-Ali Montazeri, a significant Shi'a religious authority, states that the above verses do not prescribe an earthly penalty for apostasy and adds that it is not improbable that the punishment was prescribed by Muhammad during early Islam due to political conspiracies against Islam and Muslims and not only because of changing the belief or expressing it. Montazeri defines different types of apostasy. He does not hold that a reversion of belief because of investigation and research is punishable by death but prescribes capital punishment for a desertion of Islam out of malice and enmity towards the Muslim community.[8] "
---------------------
Let me add to this that it is not the Ayatollah's place to to translate "no punishment by death" which he acknowledges as being non-Quranic, into "some punishment" or what the prophet "might have done" when "haqq" on when life can be justly taken are clearly prescribe in the Quran- only when someone has killed already (life for life unless compensated) or is making war on you to kill you, until they surrender or give up, or is out to threaten your existence in some way by destroying a community's means of subsistence ("crops and cattle")- The belief or previous belief of the person is never a question in this "haqq"- ever so the point of apostasy does not even arise in the Quran with capital punishment...
"W. Heffening states that in Qur'an "the apostate is threatened with punishment in the next world only" and "in traditions, there is little echo of these punishments in the next world ... and instead, we have in many traditions a new element, the death penalty." [6] Heffening states that Shafi'is interpret verse 2:217 as adducing the main evidence for the death penalty in Qur'an. Wael Hallaq states the death penalty was a new element added later and "reflects a later reality and does not stand in accord with the deeds of the Prophet." He further states that "nothing in the law governing apostate and apostasy derives from the letter of the holy text." [7]
The dissenting Shia jurist Grand Ayatollah Hossein-Ali Montazeri, a significant Shi'a religious authority, states that the above verses do not prescribe an earthly penalty for apostasy and adds that it is not improbable that the punishment was prescribed by Muhammad during early Islam due to political conspiracies against Islam and Muslims and not only because of changing the belief or expressing it. Montazeri defines different types of apostasy. He does not hold that a reversion of belief because of investigation and research is punishable by death but prescribes capital punishment for a desertion of Islam out of malice and enmity towards the Muslim community.[8] "
---------------------
Let me add to this that it is not the Ayatollah's place to to translate "no punishment by death" which he acknowledges as being non-Quranic, into "some punishment" or what the prophet "might have done" when "haqq" on when life can be justly taken are clearly prescribe in the Quran- only when someone has killed already (life for life unless compensated) or is making war on you to kill you, until they surrender or give up, or is out to threaten your existence in some way by destroying a community's means of subsistence ("crops and cattle")- The belief or previous belief of the person is never a question in this "haqq"- ever so the point of apostasy does not even arise in the Quran with capital punishment...
#863 Posted by masadi on July 18, 2007 1:05:44 am
In 861 read
as
That Zeemax is now trying to qualify it by making it a bit milder (though still barbaric) is a step in the right direction.
as
That Zeemax is now trying to qualify it by making it a bit milder (though still barbaric) is a step in the right direction.
#862 Posted by masadi on July 18, 2007 1:04:25 am
In 861 read
as
That Zeemax is now trying to qualify it by making it a bit milder (though still barbaric) is a step in the right direction.
as
That Zeemax is now trying to qualify it by making it a bit milder (though still barbaric) is a step in the right direction.
#861 Posted by masadi on July 18, 2007 12:59:52 am
Zeemax writes "What I HAVE Said and say again is that PROSELYTIZING apostates such as Hamidm2 should be killed."
Please show me where it says in the Quran that Proselytizing apostates (as opposed to just apostates) have a different punishment in the hereafter or this world. I wont ask you to show me where Allah asks you to kill them, because you can never find such a verse. Abu Bakr was no "Furqaan" regarding Islam (the Furqaan, criterion as all knowledable Muslims know is the Quran, and pray tell me how can it ever be the Furqaan when all extra Quranic things can be sanitized by hadith and enter into the fold of Islam?), when you say Islam= Allah + Muhammad + Sahaba, this is your holy trinity and you are as a result of which an idolator and a proselytizing idolator/apostate but there is no sanction for you to be killed. When the Quran says, "Obey Allah and Obey the messenger(rasool)", that word "rasool" means something. And when you read the verse "maa aler rasoole illa balagh", it is not for the messenger except to convey, then you would realize that Obeying Allah comes through obeying the conveyor of his message and refers only to the Quran, not your Holy trinity where the prophet speaks of his own desire about things that are extra-Quranic.
Zeemax writes "He completely rejects Muslim history, including Sunnah, and tries to read everything in the 'book' itself "
More nonsense, I do not "reject" Muslim history, I merely do not accept it as criteria for what Islam is. I am skeptical about it as truth as well (which is a seperate issue) due to the history of manipulation regarding hadith, even the claims of the collectors who threw out the very vast majority of them as fabrications and the rest they accepted based on subjective not scientific criteria which have major flaws, even though these Jihadists talk about the "science of hadith collection", there is no such thing
Further I do not try to "read everything" in the book, when the book itself points us outside to nature for proof. When nonsense tales are used to fill in details historical or otherwise in the Quran and they have no semblance or relation with the book but are legitimized by being given the holy title of "hadith", that is what I do not accept.
By the way traditional Islam of the Jihadist variety, aka the Crusader Version of Islam makes no difference between apostates and proselytizing apostates, the punishment for them according to the Jihadist sharia is the same, i.e. killing. That Zeemax is not trying to qualify it by making it a bit milder (though still barbaric) is a step in the right direction.
Echo mian don't get stuck over the word "mullah", I was using it in the common use that is prevalent today, those that make a living off of Islam and claim to be its guardians and teachers, the clergy that Islam does not sanction, those that sell the words of Allah for a miserable price and are thus involved in a haraam profession. Those are the mullahs of today, I don't give a rat's nut about what the etiology of the word is.
Killing those that are trying to convert you is an outrage against Islam, reflects badly on it and shows it to be unable to defend itself on the power of reason and intellect. It actually weakens and harms Islam and Muslims moreso than any proselytization can ever achieve. What does Allah say: " Invite to the way of Allah with wisdom and beautiful (good, kind) speech...and argue with them in ways that are good.." When he does not even allow you to use harsh speech, how can he sanction killing of those that argue with you? You all have no feet to stand upon, you are inventing lies against Allah, which by itself puts you outside the pale of Islam...By the way philosopher, you use the words "socio-political system" and I can guarantee you all here he does not understand what that means, he has no clue about a social system and that all social systems do not need to be bureaucratically circumscribed and can never be unchanging and static- that what the mullah aims at but never ever achieves or can achieve..
Please show me where it says in the Quran that Proselytizing apostates (as opposed to just apostates) have a different punishment in the hereafter or this world. I wont ask you to show me where Allah asks you to kill them, because you can never find such a verse. Abu Bakr was no "Furqaan" regarding Islam (the Furqaan, criterion as all knowledable Muslims know is the Quran, and pray tell me how can it ever be the Furqaan when all extra Quranic things can be sanitized by hadith and enter into the fold of Islam?), when you say Islam= Allah + Muhammad + Sahaba, this is your holy trinity and you are as a result of which an idolator and a proselytizing idolator/apostate but there is no sanction for you to be killed. When the Quran says, "Obey Allah and Obey the messenger(rasool)", that word "rasool" means something. And when you read the verse "maa aler rasoole illa balagh", it is not for the messenger except to convey, then you would realize that Obeying Allah comes through obeying the conveyor of his message and refers only to the Quran, not your Holy trinity where the prophet speaks of his own desire about things that are extra-Quranic.
Zeemax writes "He completely rejects Muslim history, including Sunnah, and tries to read everything in the 'book' itself "
More nonsense, I do not "reject" Muslim history, I merely do not accept it as criteria for what Islam is. I am skeptical about it as truth as well (which is a seperate issue) due to the history of manipulation regarding hadith, even the claims of the collectors who threw out the very vast majority of them as fabrications and the rest they accepted based on subjective not scientific criteria which have major flaws, even though these Jihadists talk about the "science of hadith collection", there is no such thing
Further I do not try to "read everything" in the book, when the book itself points us outside to nature for proof. When nonsense tales are used to fill in details historical or otherwise in the Quran and they have no semblance or relation with the book but are legitimized by being given the holy title of "hadith", that is what I do not accept.
By the way traditional Islam of the Jihadist variety, aka the Crusader Version of Islam makes no difference between apostates and proselytizing apostates, the punishment for them according to the Jihadist sharia is the same, i.e. killing. That Zeemax is not trying to qualify it by making it a bit milder (though still barbaric) is a step in the right direction.
Echo mian don't get stuck over the word "mullah", I was using it in the common use that is prevalent today, those that make a living off of Islam and claim to be its guardians and teachers, the clergy that Islam does not sanction, those that sell the words of Allah for a miserable price and are thus involved in a haraam profession. Those are the mullahs of today, I don't give a rat's nut about what the etiology of the word is.
Killing those that are trying to convert you is an outrage against Islam, reflects badly on it and shows it to be unable to defend itself on the power of reason and intellect. It actually weakens and harms Islam and Muslims moreso than any proselytization can ever achieve. What does Allah say: " Invite to the way of Allah with wisdom and beautiful (good, kind) speech...and argue with them in ways that are good.." When he does not even allow you to use harsh speech, how can he sanction killing of those that argue with you? You all have no feet to stand upon, you are inventing lies against Allah, which by itself puts you outside the pale of Islam...By the way philosopher, you use the words "socio-political system" and I can guarantee you all here he does not understand what that means, he has no clue about a social system and that all social systems do not need to be bureaucratically circumscribed and can never be unchanging and static- that what the mullah aims at but never ever achieves or can achieve..
#860 Posted by zeemax on July 18, 2007 12:18:52 am
#857 Posted by echoboom,
Thank you for posting this column. This 'moderatoon'- Ishtiaq Baig - the billionaire Denim king of Pakistan and husband of (late) Nazia Hassan), has now seen the light of day.
Thank you for posting this column. This 'moderatoon'- Ishtiaq Baig - the billionaire Denim king of Pakistan and husband of (late) Nazia Hassan), has now seen the light of day.
#859 Posted by arjun2 on July 17, 2007 9:18:45 pm
Grease up....bend over...
July 18, 2007
Bush Aides See Failure in Fight With Al Qaeda in Pakistan
By MARK MAZZETTI and DAVID E. SANGER
WASHINGTON, July 17 — President Bush’s top counterterrorism advisers acknowledged Tuesday that the strategy for fighting Osama bin Laden’s leadership of Al Qaeda in Pakistan had failed, as the White House released a grim new intelligence assessment that has forced the administration to consider more aggressive measures inside Pakistan.
The intelligence report, the most formal assessment since the Sept. 11 attacks about the terrorist threat facing the United States, concludes that the United States is losing ground on a number of fronts in the fight against Al Qaeda, and describes the terrorist organization as having significantly strengthened over the past two years.
In identifying the main reasons for Al Qaeda’s resurgence, intelligence officials and White House aides pointed the finger squarely at a hands-off approach toward the tribal areas by Pakistan’s president, Gen. Pervez Musharraf, who last year brokered a cease-fire with tribal leaders in an attempt to drain support for Islamic extremism in the region.
“It hasn’t worked for Pakistan,� said Frances Fragos Townsend, who heads the Homeland Security Council at the White House. “It hasn’t worked for the United States.�
While Bush administration officials had reluctantly endorsed the cease-fire as part of their effort to prop up the Pakistani leader, they expressed relief on Tuesday that General Musharraf may have to abandon that approach, because the accord seems to have unraveled.
But American officials make little secret of their skepticism that General Musharraf has the capability to be effective in the mountainous territory along the Afghan border, where his troops have been bloodied before by a mix of Qaeda leaders and tribes that view the territory as their own, not part of Pakistan.
“We’ve seen in the past that he’s sent people in and they get wiped out,� said one senior official involved in the internal debate. “You can tell from the language today that we take the threat from the tribal areas incredibly seriously. It has to be dealt with. If he can deal with it, amen. But if he can’t, he’s got to build and borrow the capability.�
In weighing how to deal with the Qaeda threat in Pakistan, American officials have been meeting in recent weeks to discuss what some said was emerging as an aggressive new strategy, one that would include both public and covert elements. They said there was growing concern that pinprick attacks on Qaeda targets were not enough, but also said some new American measures might have to remain secret to avoid embarrassing General Musharraf.
The growing Qaeda threat in Pakistan has prompted repeated trips to Islamabad by senior administration officials to lean on officials there and calls by lawmakers to make American aid to Pakistan contingent on a sustained counterterrorism effort by General Musharraf’s government.
July 18, 2007
Bush Aides See Failure in Fight With Al Qaeda in Pakistan
By MARK MAZZETTI and DAVID E. SANGER
WASHINGTON, July 17 — President Bush’s top counterterrorism advisers acknowledged Tuesday that the strategy for fighting Osama bin Laden’s leadership of Al Qaeda in Pakistan had failed, as the White House released a grim new intelligence assessment that has forced the administration to consider more aggressive measures inside Pakistan.
The intelligence report, the most formal assessment since the Sept. 11 attacks about the terrorist threat facing the United States, concludes that the United States is losing ground on a number of fronts in the fight against Al Qaeda, and describes the terrorist organization as having significantly strengthened over the past two years.
In identifying the main reasons for Al Qaeda’s resurgence, intelligence officials and White House aides pointed the finger squarely at a hands-off approach toward the tribal areas by Pakistan’s president, Gen. Pervez Musharraf, who last year brokered a cease-fire with tribal leaders in an attempt to drain support for Islamic extremism in the region.
“It hasn’t worked for Pakistan,� said Frances Fragos Townsend, who heads the Homeland Security Council at the White House. “It hasn’t worked for the United States.�
While Bush administration officials had reluctantly endorsed the cease-fire as part of their effort to prop up the Pakistani leader, they expressed relief on Tuesday that General Musharraf may have to abandon that approach, because the accord seems to have unraveled.
But American officials make little secret of their skepticism that General Musharraf has the capability to be effective in the mountainous territory along the Afghan border, where his troops have been bloodied before by a mix of Qaeda leaders and tribes that view the territory as their own, not part of Pakistan.
“We’ve seen in the past that he’s sent people in and they get wiped out,� said one senior official involved in the internal debate. “You can tell from the language today that we take the threat from the tribal areas incredibly seriously. It has to be dealt with. If he can deal with it, amen. But if he can’t, he’s got to build and borrow the capability.�
In weighing how to deal with the Qaeda threat in Pakistan, American officials have been meeting in recent weeks to discuss what some said was emerging as an aggressive new strategy, one that would include both public and covert elements. They said there was growing concern that pinprick attacks on Qaeda targets were not enough, but also said some new American measures might have to remain secret to avoid embarrassing General Musharraf.
The growing Qaeda threat in Pakistan has prompted repeated trips to Islamabad by senior administration officials to lean on officials there and calls by lawmakers to make American aid to Pakistan contingent on a sustained counterterrorism effort by General Musharraf’s government.
#858 Posted by tahmed32 on July 17, 2007 7:50:04 pm
Dost Mittar: Fair enough, and glad to have your vote on "my" interpretation of Islam rather than Hamidm's. Actually, Hamidm has said he would be all for "my" interpretation except he choses to consider it impossible. I put "my" in quotes because it is in fact the mainstream interpretation of Islam, and not merely my interpretation.
On the clarifications, I did not mean to put you on the defensive: I gave the Japanese example simply to illustrate that when individuals use religion to further personal ambitions (as emperor HiroHito did) that you have a problem. Hiro Hito showed his true colors when he switched from being the warrior king to being the mild-mannered gardener king to save his own skin after WWII - and after tens of millions of people had been killed. It is these individuals who use religion who are the true enemies of all humanity, not the religion. Whether the religion is Shinto or Buddhist or Islam or Hinduism.
When Hamidm makes fun of Islam, while ignoring the real problem (those who seek to become military or religious autocrats in Pakistan), he is merely barking up the wrong tree. (and I hope Hamidm reads this and thinks about it, so he can apply his unmatched writing style and wit to proper use).
On the other clarification, I did not mean to imply that you had asked me to start a dialog with anyone - and admittedly the reason I wrote it was not clearly stated. So let me make that point a bit more clearly: You had said you agreed with harimau on one issue (quotas). It happens I too consider quotas to be counterproductive (I have seen how they are abused first hand). But I chose to draw the line with someone who thinks there is an excuse for killing innocent people (as Harimau claims was the case in Gujrat), or who routinely ridicules some community of people. You obviously dont draw such lines, and that is fine. For me, I couldnt care less what pearls of wisdom someone has to shed if he crosses certain lines.
Hope the above clarifies any misunderstanding, rather than makes confusion worse confounded. :-)
Thanks for the discussion.
On the clarifications, I did not mean to put you on the defensive: I gave the Japanese example simply to illustrate that when individuals use religion to further personal ambitions (as emperor HiroHito did) that you have a problem. Hiro Hito showed his true colors when he switched from being the warrior king to being the mild-mannered gardener king to save his own skin after WWII - and after tens of millions of people had been killed. It is these individuals who use religion who are the true enemies of all humanity, not the religion. Whether the religion is Shinto or Buddhist or Islam or Hinduism.
When Hamidm makes fun of Islam, while ignoring the real problem (those who seek to become military or religious autocrats in Pakistan), he is merely barking up the wrong tree. (and I hope Hamidm reads this and thinks about it, so he can apply his unmatched writing style and wit to proper use).
On the other clarification, I did not mean to imply that you had asked me to start a dialog with anyone - and admittedly the reason I wrote it was not clearly stated. So let me make that point a bit more clearly: You had said you agreed with harimau on one issue (quotas). It happens I too consider quotas to be counterproductive (I have seen how they are abused first hand). But I chose to draw the line with someone who thinks there is an excuse for killing innocent people (as Harimau claims was the case in Gujrat), or who routinely ridicules some community of people. You obviously dont draw such lines, and that is fine. For me, I couldnt care less what pearls of wisdom someone has to shed if he crosses certain lines.
Hope the above clarifies any misunderstanding, rather than makes confusion worse confounded. :-)
Thanks for the discussion.
#855 Posted by ana on July 17, 2007 6:41:59 pm
arjun,
many posts later, i am doing fine, thanks for asking. hope you are doing well also. haven't emailed you for a while, but then tum bhi kab likhtay ho?!?
and i know this is not about mo and aisha. i actually know what you are getting at. as usual we disagree on tactics. :)
Krishna,
I am sorry, I did not get to read all of what you said because I am only here for a limited time, but thank you for responding to what I said all the same.
many posts later, i am doing fine, thanks for asking. hope you are doing well also. haven't emailed you for a while, but then tum bhi kab likhtay ho?!?
and i know this is not about mo and aisha. i actually know what you are getting at. as usual we disagree on tactics. :)
Krishna,
I am sorry, I did not get to read all of what you said because I am only here for a limited time, but thank you for responding to what I said all the same.
#854 Posted by echoboom on July 17, 2007 6:18:23 pm
The Cantonment kuttas who have been awarded Nishaan-i-Ganjaa-Giddh from their Masters in remote-control
are really elated at this news.
Oh now let us go muslim hunting again; the massa IS COMIN' THE MASS IS COMIN'
__________________________________________________________
U.S. says Pakistan is fighting extremism decisively
07:33, July 18, 2007 The United States expects Pakistan, one of its anti-terror allies, to launch more military strikes on Islamic militants along its border with Afghanistan, senior U.S. officials said Tuesday.
"The Pakistani government is dealing decisively with the problems that have been brewing for some time," said Richard Boucher, the assistant secretary of state for south and central Asian affairs.
Citing recent developments along the Afghan border and the military siege on extremists holed up in Islamabad's Red Mosque, Boucher told a news briefing, "I think it shows that the government pared to move, to act, against a dangerous militancy that has come to infect various areas and parts of Pakistani society."
Voicing U.S. support for Pakistan's anti-terror effort, Boucher said "We have to remember that some military action is necessary, and will probably have to be taken."
Fran Townsend, U.S. President George W. Bush's homeland security advisor, also praised Musharraf's efforts to fight extremists in its border region with Afghanistan.
"I think it's fair to say (Pakistani) President Pervez Musharraf is committed to the fact that he will not permit that to be a safe haven and we will work with him to ensure that that safe haven is denied to them."
It was reported that Washington plans to spend 750 million dollars on education, health and economic projects in Pakistan's tribal areas over the next five years and is hoping to find an additional 300 million dollars to 350 million dollars in the coming year to help revamp Pakistan's beleaguered 85,000-member Frontier Corps that patrols the border.
Source: Xinhua
are really elated at this news.
Oh now let us go muslim hunting again; the massa IS COMIN' THE MASS IS COMIN'
__________________________________________________________
U.S. says Pakistan is fighting extremism decisively
07:33, July 18, 2007 The United States expects Pakistan, one of its anti-terror allies, to launch more military strikes on Islamic militants along its border with Afghanistan, senior U.S. officials said Tuesday.
"The Pakistani government is dealing decisively with the problems that have been brewing for some time," said Richard Boucher, the assistant secretary of state for south and central Asian affairs.
Citing recent developments along the Afghan border and the military siege on extremists holed up in Islamabad's Red Mosque, Boucher told a news briefing, "I think it shows that the government pared to move, to act, against a dangerous militancy that has come to infect various areas and parts of Pakistani society."
Voicing U.S. support for Pakistan's anti-terror effort, Boucher said "We have to remember that some military action is necessary, and will probably have to be taken."
Fran Townsend, U.S. President George W. Bush's homeland security advisor, also praised Musharraf's efforts to fight extremists in its border region with Afghanistan.
"I think it's fair to say (Pakistani) President Pervez Musharraf is committed to the fact that he will not permit that to be a safe haven and we will work with him to ensure that that safe haven is denied to them."
It was reported that Washington plans to spend 750 million dollars on education, health and economic projects in Pakistan's tribal areas over the next five years and is hoping to find an additional 300 million dollars to 350 million dollars in the coming year to help revamp Pakistan's beleaguered 85,000-member Frontier Corps that patrols the border.
Source: Xinhua
#852 Posted by echoboom on July 17, 2007 5:54:27 pm
GT:851
You know what, it is people like you who make the reasons given for the partition look completely asinine.
thanks, but promise not to agree with me in future to this extent.
You know what, it is people like you who make the reasons given for the partition look completely asinine.
thanks, but promise not to agree with me in future to this extent.
#851 Posted by GT on July 17, 2007 5:43:46 pm
#849 Posted by echoboom:
"But anarchy, no matter how laudable, is still a very Utopian concept."
No question about it ... completely agreed. On the other hand, taking stock requires sanity. The dictator cannot be removed without the 'moderates' (oons?). The 'moderates' know what happened in Iran. So to get their support, credible and long term commitments have to be made. A credible way forward would be to talk about what kind of shariah/constitution is feasible in Pakistan today. Who knows ... there may be a huge overlap. But simply copy-pasting some Western document will not do for today's Pakistan. Pakistanis need to cut their differences and think ... be practical instead of emotional.
"But anarchy, no matter how laudable, is still a very Utopian concept."
No question about it ... completely agreed. On the other hand, taking stock requires sanity. The dictator cannot be removed without the 'moderates' (oons?). The 'moderates' know what happened in Iran. So to get their support, credible and long term commitments have to be made. A credible way forward would be to talk about what kind of shariah/constitution is feasible in Pakistan today. Who knows ... there may be a huge overlap. But simply copy-pasting some Western document will not do for today's Pakistan. Pakistanis need to cut their differences and think ... be practical instead of emotional.
#850 Posted by dost_mittar on July 17, 2007 5:01:05 pm
tahmed#841:
I think that it is time to bring this dialog to an end. Just two small clarifications:
- I did not ask you to interact with arjun or anyone else.
- I did not suggest Japanese options 1 or 2; in fact I had preferred your approach to hamidm's for remdial action.
Thanks.
I think that it is time to bring this dialog to an end. Just two small clarifications:
- I did not ask you to interact with arjun or anyone else.
- I did not suggest Japanese options 1 or 2; in fact I had preferred your approach to hamidm's for remdial action.
Thanks.
#849 Posted by echoboom on July 17, 2007 4:55:35 pm
838: GT
You put words in my mouth and in BOLD.
very unfair!
I'm quite aware of the nefarious practices pf the western world.. But I really admire that you too look at the things same way.
You are right on the money about that Quraanic injunction..my only contention is about the "ground realities".
In a community individually acting according to the Quraan, that "ground reality" would be redundant.
But anarchy, no matter how laudable, is still a very Utopian concept.
You put words in my mouth and in BOLD.
very unfair!
I'm quite aware of the nefarious practices pf the western world.. But I really admire that you too look at the things same way.
You are right on the money about that Quraanic injunction..my only contention is about the "ground realities".
In a community individually acting according to the Quraan, that "ground reality" would be redundant.
But anarchy, no matter how laudable, is still a very Utopian concept.
#848 Posted by dost_mittar on July 17, 2007 4:50:46 pm
Re: # 841
It's time to bring this topic to a close. Only two small points:
- I did not ask you to interact with arjun or anyone else.
- I did not suggest Japanese options 1 and 2; indeed I had suggested you over hamidm for any remedial action.
Will meet again, I am sure. :)
It's time to bring this topic to a close. Only two small points:
- I did not ask you to interact with arjun or anyone else.
- I did not suggest Japanese options 1 and 2; indeed I had suggested you over hamidm for any remedial action.
Will meet again, I am sure. :)
#847 Posted by GT on July 17, 2007 4:42:15 pm
#840 Posted by zeemax
Zee:
You say:
"You and hamidm carefully read masadi because he kind of says what you want to hear."
You know that you are not being fair here. I read what you say very carefully too.
Also, if you care about Pakistan then it is high time for you to get less emotional/angry.
Zee:
You say:
"You and hamidm carefully read masadi because he kind of says what you want to hear."
You know that you are not being fair here. I read what you say very carefully too.
Also, if you care about Pakistan then it is high time for you to get less emotional/angry.
#846 Posted by mohar11 on July 17, 2007 3:44:12 pm
zee
[...He had replied "Islamabad would become Baghdad"...]
Well - we will soon find out... pakis killing pakis is nothing new - but killing field like baghdad would be a whole different story...
I guess the time for you to oil up your guillotine and run after hamidm... :)
[...He had replied "Islamabad would become Baghdad"...]
Well - we will soon find out... pakis killing pakis is nothing new - but killing field like baghdad would be a whole different story...
I guess the time for you to oil up your guillotine and run after hamidm... :)
#845 Posted by arjun2 on July 17, 2007 3:29:01 pm
Grease up..bend over..here it comes..
US pushing Pakistan to hit al-Qaeda: official
OUR SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT
WASHINGTON - The United States will keep pressing Pakistan to take action against the Al Qaeda, which, according to an American intelligence report released Tuesday, is regrouping in Pakistan's remote border regions to carry out terrorist attacks on U.S. soil, a senior White House official said.
Al Qaeda's top operatives and leadership have found safe haven in the frontier areas near the border with Afghanistan, where the government exercises little control, according to the National Intelligence Estimate (NIE).
"We will continue to press (the Pakistanis) to take action to ensure that no part of Pakistan remains a safe haven for terrorists,' said Fran Townsend, US President George W. Bush's homeland security adviser.
US pushing Pakistan to hit al-Qaeda: official
OUR SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT
WASHINGTON - The United States will keep pressing Pakistan to take action against the Al Qaeda, which, according to an American intelligence report released Tuesday, is regrouping in Pakistan's remote border regions to carry out terrorist attacks on U.S. soil, a senior White House official said.
Al Qaeda's top operatives and leadership have found safe haven in the frontier areas near the border with Afghanistan, where the government exercises little control, according to the National Intelligence Estimate (NIE).
"We will continue to press (the Pakistanis) to take action to ensure that no part of Pakistan remains a safe haven for terrorists,' said Fran Townsend, US President George W. Bush's homeland security adviser.
#844 Posted by arjun2 on July 17, 2007 3:27:45 pm
HAHAHA...
Kashmir banega Pakistan Pakistan banega Afghanistan..
Lal Masjids to turn Pak into Afghanistan
Mehmood Hamdani and Dilshad Azeem
ISLAMABAD — Interior Minister Aftab Sherpao Tuesday forewarned that Pakistan would become Afghanistan if Lal Masjid and Jamia Hafsa-like incidents continue to take place in the country.
Kashmir banega Pakistan Pakistan banega Afghanistan..
Lal Masjids to turn Pak into Afghanistan
Mehmood Hamdani and Dilshad Azeem
ISLAMABAD — Interior Minister Aftab Sherpao Tuesday forewarned that Pakistan would become Afghanistan if Lal Masjid and Jamia Hafsa-like incidents continue to take place in the country.
#843 Posted by tahmed32 on July 17, 2007 3:24:58 pm
I meant #800, not #100 below. Why the hell did chowk take away this second chance to review before publishing what you wrote?? :-(
#841 Posted by tahmed32 on July 17, 2007 3:20:40 pm
Dost Mittar: You say I was referring to the criticism of Islam and not of terrorism or terrorists.
During WWII, millions of Japanese soldiers fought with fanatical zeal, scores of kamikaze pilots went on suicide mission, tens of millions of innocent people coming in their way were killed for the greater glory of their emperor Hiro Hito who was considered a sun-god in their religion Shintoism. Shintoism, along with Buddhism, was the official religion of Japan.
So how did they solve the problem after WWII?
a. By declaring Shintoism to be the cause of this violence, and therefore prohibiting its practice;
b. By declaring Shintoism and Buddhism to be the cause of this violence, and therefore prohibiting their practice; or
c. By introducing a democratic constitution that transferred power from militarists and priests to ordinary people, while leaving it for the people to practice their religion as before.
The answer is of course c. And Buddhism is considered a religion of peace (which it is, like all other religions - if practiced by ordinary people, not by those seeking to gain or retain political power like emperor HiroHito).
This point could easily be re-inforced by other examples in history from other religions including hinduism (e.g. the kali worshipping ghoondas who gave us the word "thug"). But if you reflect upon the Japanese example, you will I hope agree that this is enough for me to rest my case.
And this is why I consider all those who chose to equate Islam with mullah terrorists to be driven not by any logic or facts but by their own personal hatreds.
You write The only exception I can think of is Harimou and his rants also seem to be largely reserved not for dalits (or achoots as you people call them) but for reservations for the other backward castes in Tamil Nadu whom he derisively calls Masanmuthu. And some of us even sympathise his views to some extent.
Harimau has also noted that he considers gujerat murders of muslim families to be justified due to godhra murders of hindu passengers.
The question of quotas is a separate issue - one can debate its pros and cons. We need to draw the line on justifications presented for violence and lawlessness and negative stereotyping of any community.
Why should I discuss issues with arjun or harimau (I can exchange insults if I have time) even if I agree on some specific issue with them if they cross this line and condones murder of innocent people or ridicule of muslims or any other community of people?
During WWII, millions of Japanese soldiers fought with fanatical zeal, scores of kamikaze pilots went on suicide mission, tens of millions of innocent people coming in their way were killed for the greater glory of their emperor Hiro Hito who was considered a sun-god in their religion Shintoism. Shintoism, along with Buddhism, was the official religion of Japan.
So how did they solve the problem after WWII?
a. By declaring Shintoism to be the cause of this violence, and therefore prohibiting its practice;
b. By declaring Shintoism and Buddhism to be the cause of this violence, and therefore prohibiting their practice; or
c. By introducing a democratic constitution that transferred power from militarists and priests to ordinary people, while leaving it for the people to practice their religion as before.
The answer is of course c. And Buddhism is considered a religion of peace (which it is, like all other religions - if practiced by ordinary people, not by those seeking to gain or retain political power like emperor HiroHito).
This point could easily be re-inforced by other examples in history from other religions including hinduism (e.g. the kali worshipping ghoondas who gave us the word "thug"). But if you reflect upon the Japanese example, you will I hope agree that this is enough for me to rest my case.
And this is why I consider all those who chose to equate Islam with mullah terrorists to be driven not by any logic or facts but by their own personal hatreds.
You write The only exception I can think of is Harimou and his rants also seem to be largely reserved not for dalits (or achoots as you people call them) but for reservations for the other backward castes in Tamil Nadu whom he derisively calls Masanmuthu. And some of us even sympathise his views to some extent.
Harimau has also noted that he considers gujerat murders of muslim families to be justified due to godhra murders of hindu passengers.
The question of quotas is a separate issue - one can debate its pros and cons. We need to draw the line on justifications presented for violence and lawlessness and negative stereotyping of any community.
Why should I discuss issues with arjun or harimau (I can exchange insults if I have time) even if I agree on some specific issue with them if they cross this line and condones murder of innocent people or ridicule of muslims or any other community of people?
#840 Posted by zeemax on July 17, 2007 2:37:17 pm
#838 Posted by GT,
GT I don't know if you are aware of my major difference with masadi. He completely rejects Muslim history, including Sunnah, and tries to read everything in the 'book' itself. That is not what Qura'an itself says. It says follow Allah AND His prophet. All the time, over and over. Everything is not in Qura'an as a day-to-day desk-manual. No book can do that. Qura'an provides clear hints. The ones whose hearts Allah lights up (that's from Qura'an as well) pick up those hints and take it on from there.
Those girls of Jamia Hafsa who bravely faced nerve gas, bullets and mortars, and never surrendered, were neither zombies nor brain-washed. They were as much or less so as were the original Muhajireen. They died in Allah's path and considered it their honour, as did their next of kin.
You and hamidm carefully read masadi because he kind of says what you want to hear. That is not Islam. Islam is Qura'an PLUS Mohammad (and by extension, his closest Companions). You have just seen a display of its power.
Killing the scheming and proselytizing apostates is one of those things. It is vague in the Qura'an, but that is what Muhammad did himself, and practically what Abu Bakr spent most of his 2 year tenure in doing.
Only once that was done, Umar established the Islamic empire without irritants. Without Abu Bakr's timely action against apostates, it would not have been possible.
Is someone here telling me Abu Bak'r went against the teachings of Qura'an?
GT I don't know if you are aware of my major difference with masadi. He completely rejects Muslim history, including Sunnah, and tries to read everything in the 'book' itself. That is not what Qura'an itself says. It says follow Allah AND His prophet. All the time, over and over. Everything is not in Qura'an as a day-to-day desk-manual. No book can do that. Qura'an provides clear hints. The ones whose hearts Allah lights up (that's from Qura'an as well) pick up those hints and take it on from there.
Those girls of Jamia Hafsa who bravely faced nerve gas, bullets and mortars, and never surrendered, were neither zombies nor brain-washed. They were as much or less so as were the original Muhajireen. They died in Allah's path and considered it their honour, as did their next of kin.
You and hamidm carefully read masadi because he kind of says what you want to hear. That is not Islam. Islam is Qura'an PLUS Mohammad (and by extension, his closest Companions). You have just seen a display of its power.
Killing the scheming and proselytizing apostates is one of those things. It is vague in the Qura'an, but that is what Muhammad did himself, and practically what Abu Bakr spent most of his 2 year tenure in doing.
Only once that was done, Umar established the Islamic empire without irritants. Without Abu Bakr's timely action against apostates, it would not have been possible.
Is someone here telling me Abu Bak'r went against the teachings of Qura'an?
#839 Posted by GT on July 17, 2007 2:30:46 pm
#837 Posted by echoboom
WHY ARE YOU WASTING MY TIME, GT?
Well echo:
This Haneef guy is a relative of the guy who drove a car into Glasgow airport. He is a doctor and he may well have been a part of the plan. He was arrested in Australia. But the Australians have not been able to prove his links with the terrorist plot. The judge granted him bail but the govt. revoked his visa. Hence, the guy is still in jail. The Indian govt. has demanded that Haneef be fairly treated. The Queensland premier has blamed the federal govt. for its actions. The left and right are all up in arms. Politics as usual and everything is fine. Haneef's wife is not too happy about matters, and if his one month old baby had been a couple of years older then she would have had to deal with his misery too. But that is not the purpose of this post.
I want you and all who are reading this post to consider the following title of an article in an Australian paper;
"Oz doctor's alleged terror links revealed in documents"
So what would you think? Well one would believe that finally the doctor's links with the terror plot have been revealed. You would go to your office and hold forth on doctors and terrorists and what not. But if you had some-time to read on you would notice the following in the article:
"Fresh details of Mohamed Haneef's links to UK terror suspects have been revealed in documents used by Immigration Minister Kevin Andrews to revoke the Indian doctor's visa."
So you would say, what about it GT? Why are you wasting my time? I would ask you to read a bit more carefully. Note it says that "..links to terror SUSPECTS..". Not "..links to the terror PLOT...". But we knew that there were links, there had to be, they were brothers after all!
The point is that many a times we are taken for a ride in this "global war on terror". And while we pay and die, many are laughing their way to the banks.
WHY ARE YOU WASTING MY TIME, GT?
Well echo:
This Haneef guy is a relative of the guy who drove a car into Glasgow airport. He is a doctor and he may well have been a part of the plan. He was arrested in Australia. But the Australians have not been able to prove his links with the terrorist plot. The judge granted him bail but the govt. revoked his visa. Hence, the guy is still in jail. The Indian govt. has demanded that Haneef be fairly treated. The Queensland premier has blamed the federal govt. for its actions. The left and right are all up in arms. Politics as usual and everything is fine. Haneef's wife is not too happy about matters, and if his one month old baby had been a couple of years older then she would have had to deal with his misery too. But that is not the purpose of this post.
I want you and all who are reading this post to consider the following title of an article in an Australian paper;
"Oz doctor's alleged terror links revealed in documents"
So what would you think? Well one would believe that finally the doctor's links with the terror plot have been revealed. You would go to your office and hold forth on doctors and terrorists and what not. But if you had some-time to read on you would notice the following in the article:
"Fresh details of Mohamed Haneef's links to UK terror suspects have been revealed in documents used by Immigration Minister Kevin Andrews to revoke the Indian doctor's visa."
So you would say, what about it GT? Why are you wasting my time? I would ask you to read a bit more carefully. Note it says that "..links to terror SUSPECTS..". Not "..links to the terror PLOT...". But we knew that there were links, there had to be, they were brothers after all!
The point is that many a times we are taken for a ride in this "global war on terror". And while we pay and die, many are laughing their way to the banks.
#838 Posted by GT on July 17, 2007 1:49:22 pm
#834 Posted by zeemax
Zee,
I will let masadi deal with all of this. But it seems that people like me and hamid, who disagree a lot with masadi, read him more carefully. You have misinterpreted him a lot.
Anyway, you say:
"I say BS. Kill the proselytizing apostates now because that is an integral part of the Islamic system,..."
Fine, but it is not an integral part of the Koran. Even I know this, thanks to urstruly. Also, I do not buy your ".. the Islamic system..". I simply call it zeemax's Islamic system :)
Zee,
I will let masadi deal with all of this. But it seems that people like me and hamid, who disagree a lot with masadi, read him more carefully. You have misinterpreted him a lot.
Anyway, you say:
"I say BS. Kill the proselytizing apostates now because that is an integral part of the Islamic system,..."
Fine, but it is not an integral part of the Koran. Even I know this, thanks to urstruly. Also, I do not buy your ".. the Islamic system..". I simply call it zeemax's Islamic system :)
#837 Posted by echoboom on July 17, 2007 1:38:31 pm
#835 Posted by GT
Boom sahib?
a simple echo would do. thank you.
I am not aware of Haneef case, but I'm pretty sure the Indian Government would speak its mind....any people whose leaders can afford to go about in their national dress; not to make it a multicuNJURRal-event to the Goraa-ghar but as a purpose to irritate the Chitta-baboons, has my blessings.
Let us free our mind, our spirit, and our souls from the western baboons. Science, Technology, and "progress" has nothing whatsoever to do with behaving like a monkey, parrot, dog, mynaa, totaa, or an ass.
Are you not guys who invented Zero without an alien accent, dress, or food?
Boom sahib?
a simple echo would do. thank you.
I am not aware of Haneef case, but I'm pretty sure the Indian Government would speak its mind....any people whose leaders can afford to go about in their national dress; not to make it a multicuNJURRal-event to the Goraa-ghar but as a purpose to irritate the Chitta-baboons, has my blessings.
Let us free our mind, our spirit, and our souls from the western baboons. Science, Technology, and "progress" has nothing whatsoever to do with behaving like a monkey, parrot, dog, mynaa, totaa, or an ass.
Are you not guys who invented Zero without an alien accent, dress, or food?
#836 Posted by zeemax on July 17, 2007 1:27:31 pm
I'm wondering now how truthful Ghazi Abdul-Rasheed was.
He was asked what would happen if he was killed in the action. He had replied "Islamabad would become Baghdad".
He was asked what would happen if he was killed in the action. He had replied "Islamabad would become Baghdad".
#835 Posted by GT on July 17, 2007 1:23:32 pm
Boom sahib:
Regarding the namak-slaves. You might want to see the Indian govt.'s response to the Australians over Haneef's case. Here is an editorial:
http://www.hindu.com/2007/07/17/stories/2007071755640800.htm
I remember, not a very long time ago, the Brits used to lecture the Indians on human rights in Kashmir. I think it is high time for the Indians to lecture Britain on Iraq.
#834 Posted by zeemax on July 17, 2007 1:19:09 pm
#832 Posted by GT,
Well, certainly masadi is entitled to his opinions, but they don't make any sense. The matter is whether it is a crime or not. Extent of punishment is secondary.
To masadi, US Elite are criminals and must be neutralized. To me, US Elite are just punks who will be neutralized anyway in due course but apostates and the enemies of Islam within Islam are a bigger threat.
Masadi says the former have a negative impact here and now and must be taken to task, while apostates are not a threat and let 'God deal with them'. I say BS. Kill the proselytizing apostates now because that is an integral part of the Islamic system, and let God decide whether there was any injustice involved in the act by those passing that verdict.
That is why I call masadi a hypocrite. He considers a petty transitional matter like usurping global resources a crime, which all empires do in their time, while condones an attack on the entire Islamic faith as personal judgment and advocates looking in the other direction.
Well, certainly masadi is entitled to his opinions, but they don't make any sense. The matter is whether it is a crime or not. Extent of punishment is secondary.
To masadi, US Elite are criminals and must be neutralized. To me, US Elite are just punks who will be neutralized anyway in due course but apostates and the enemies of Islam within Islam are a bigger threat.
Masadi says the former have a negative impact here and now and must be taken to task, while apostates are not a threat and let 'God deal with them'. I say BS. Kill the proselytizing apostates now because that is an integral part of the Islamic system, and let God decide whether there was any injustice involved in the act by those passing that verdict.
That is why I call masadi a hypocrite. He considers a petty transitional matter like usurping global resources a crime, which all empires do in their time, while condones an attack on the entire Islamic faith as personal judgment and advocates looking in the other direction.
#833 Posted by khurram on July 17, 2007 1:17:33 pm
Re#827 philospher,
"but without a social system how would you preserve those islamic values which differentiate islam from other systems or the values that islam so dearly holds.."
No one is disputing that Islam is a socio-political system. But, why would this socio-political system need to resort to coercion to respond to criticism and dissent?
" don't know how Masadi would deal with irshad manji, asra nomani ......"
My guess is that he would let them have their say and respond with his own arguments. Why resort to coercion?
"how would his ''islam'' deal with the supporter of same sex marriage?? what if someone starts supporting incest and this kind of stuff?"
Such behaviour can remain outlawed without resorting to coercion against people who are merely arguing for it. Their arguments can be defeated by counter-arguments - not violence.
"but without a social system how would you preserve those islamic values which differentiate islam from other systems or the values that islam so dearly holds.."
No one is disputing that Islam is a socio-political system. But, why would this socio-political system need to resort to coercion to respond to criticism and dissent?
" don't know how Masadi would deal with irshad manji, asra nomani ......"
My guess is that he would let them have their say and respond with his own arguments. Why resort to coercion?
"how would his ''islam'' deal with the supporter of same sex marriage?? what if someone starts supporting incest and this kind of stuff?"
Such behaviour can remain outlawed without resorting to coercion against people who are merely arguing for it. Their arguments can be defeated by counter-arguments - not violence.
#832 Posted by GT on July 17, 2007 1:00:14 pm
Reply to # 828 by zeemax;
Zee;
You guys have raised several questions for masadi to answer and I am sure he will deal with them. But he has interacted here for quite sometime and since his interacts are public, I believe I have the right to comment on an issue which you raise and which I find disturbing.
You say he is a hypocrite.
And then go on to say: "He wants the US Elite fixed in the here and now, and the apostates in the hereafter, for some curious reason." What masadi has been maintaining throughout is that the Koran does not say that apostates should be killed. IT IS MASADI'S opinion THAT APOSTATES SHOULD NOT BE KILLED, JUST AS IT HIS opinion THAT THE US ELITE BE FIXED. Moreover, I have not seen any post of masadi where he says that the US elites should be killed. So, where is the hypocricy zee?
p.s. About the Abdul Aziz thing. Of course, I know that the rumour is false. What I wanted to know is whether others have heard it too.
Zee;
You guys have raised several questions for masadi to answer and I am sure he will deal with them. But he has interacted here for quite sometime and since his interacts are public, I believe I have the right to comment on an issue which you raise and which I find disturbing.
You say he is a hypocrite.
And then go on to say: "He wants the US Elite fixed in the here and now, and the apostates in the hereafter, for some curious reason." What masadi has been maintaining throughout is that the Koran does not say that apostates should be killed. IT IS MASADI'S opinion THAT APOSTATES SHOULD NOT BE KILLED, JUST AS IT HIS opinion THAT THE US ELITE BE FIXED. Moreover, I have not seen any post of masadi where he says that the US elites should be killed. So, where is the hypocricy zee?
p.s. About the Abdul Aziz thing. Of course, I know that the rumour is false. What I wanted to know is whether others have heard it too.
#831 Posted by philosopher on July 17, 2007 12:57:32 pm
Re:#828 Posted by zeemax
(((But no. He wants the US Elite fixed in the here and now, and the apostates in the hereafter, for some curious reason.)))
The reason is obvious and that is the colonized unconscious. We muslim have been apologetic on islam's concept of divorce before divorce became the most LIBERATING concept in the west. Now we are apologetic about polygamy clearing ignoring the fact that islam is the only religion which puts an upper limit onn polygamy. These other religions have convenient reform movements that they can hide behind and we are left explaining why islam is 'misogynist'.
How can you change the core principles of a philosophy on the basis of overly generalized and so called ,broader underlying' purposes?
Some liberaloon islamic feminist have been trying to derive out new meanings from ''qawaam'' and ''daraba''. This is nothing but exercise in futilit. The philosophy of Islam is plainly clear on this issue and that is it believes in a patriarichal family system.
Now liberaloon have been trying to ''deconstruct'' this language to derive out some more desirable meanings suited to their oon minds and letting it is nothing but a worst kind of apostasy.
I don't give any shit about this liberaloonism any more. My religion is source of guidance and moralities for me no matter how they look like to 'oon' minds.
(((But no. He wants the US Elite fixed in the here and now, and the apostates in the hereafter, for some curious reason.)))
The reason is obvious and that is the colonized unconscious. We muslim have been apologetic on islam's concept of divorce before divorce became the most LIBERATING concept in the west. Now we are apologetic about polygamy clearing ignoring the fact that islam is the only religion which puts an upper limit onn polygamy. These other religions have convenient reform movements that they can hide behind and we are left explaining why islam is 'misogynist'.
How can you change the core principles of a philosophy on the basis of overly generalized and so called ,broader underlying' purposes?
Some liberaloon islamic feminist have been trying to derive out new meanings from ''qawaam'' and ''daraba''. This is nothing but exercise in futilit. The philosophy of Islam is plainly clear on this issue and that is it believes in a patriarichal family system.
Now liberaloon have been trying to ''deconstruct'' this language to derive out some more desirable meanings suited to their oon minds and letting it is nothing but a worst kind of apostasy.
I don't give any shit about this liberaloonism any more. My religion is source of guidance and moralities for me no matter how they look like to 'oon' minds.
#830 Posted by zeemax on July 17, 2007 12:54:34 pm
Attack was on People's Party reception camp for CJ convention ...
#828 Posted by zeemax on July 17, 2007 12:33:27 pm
#827 Posted by philosopher,
Yes ... I'm deeply disturbed to discover masadi is no more than a hypocrite. If 'God will deal with them', surely 'God must be competent to deal with the US Elite' as well. So why rant and rave against the US Elite ... ?
But no. He wants the US Elite fixed in the here and now, and the apostates in the hereafter, for some curious reason.
Yes ... I'm deeply disturbed to discover masadi is no more than a hypocrite. If 'God will deal with them', surely 'God must be competent to deal with the US Elite' as well. So why rant and rave against the US Elite ... ?
But no. He wants the US Elite fixed in the here and now, and the apostates in the hereafter, for some curious reason.
#827 Posted by philosopher on July 17, 2007 12:13:23 pm
#823 Posted by khurram
(((He is talking about people peacefully changing their religion and peacefully propagating their new faith.))))
OK...Khurram mian..;
will you please explain what mischief in land is??? if urging muslims to change their faith...oh sorry even peacfully... is not ''mischief in land'' than whatelse is???
i have clarfied it earlier that death penality is NOT the minimum punishment for the apostasy...but it can be implemented if state sees it fit.
My interpretation of Islam(on the philosophical and spirtual level) is hell lot of different than the One Mullahs hold but without a social system how would you preserve those islamic values which differentiate islam from other systems or the values that islam so dearly holds, is beyond me.
i don't know how Masadi would deal with irshad manji, asra nomani and liberaloon and kanjaroon type 'muslims. will he try to stop them with piyaar mohabbat? how would his ''islam'' deal with the supporter of same sex marriage?? what if someone starts supporting incest and this kind of stuff?
Why does Masadi wanna get rid of colonialism and its influence??? what alternative has he got? is it possible to get rid of colonialisma and westren influence without having a social-political system???
(((He is talking about people peacefully changing their religion and peacefully propagating their new faith.))))
OK...Khurram mian..;
will you please explain what mischief in land is??? if urging muslims to change their faith...oh sorry even peacfully... is not ''mischief in land'' than whatelse is???
i have clarfied it earlier that death penality is NOT the minimum punishment for the apostasy...but it can be implemented if state sees it fit.
My interpretation of Islam(on the philosophical and spirtual level) is hell lot of different than the One Mullahs hold but without a social system how would you preserve those islamic values which differentiate islam from other systems or the values that islam so dearly holds, is beyond me.
i don't know how Masadi would deal with irshad manji, asra nomani and liberaloon and kanjaroon type 'muslims. will he try to stop them with piyaar mohabbat? how would his ''islam'' deal with the supporter of same sex marriage?? what if someone starts supporting incest and this kind of stuff?
Why does Masadi wanna get rid of colonialism and its influence??? what alternative has he got? is it possible to get rid of colonialisma and westren influence without having a social-political system???
#826 Posted by zeemax on July 17, 2007 12:11:21 pm
#823 Posted by khurram
He is talking about people peacefully changing their religion and peacefully propagating their new faith.
No problem with peacefully changing religion or abandoning it altogether in personal affairs, but it will not be given public sanction. As for propagating their new faith after apostatizing, the punishment is death via the most excruciating methods. There's no question about that.
He is talking about people peacefully changing their religion and peacefully propagating their new faith.
No problem with peacefully changing religion or abandoning it altogether in personal affairs, but it will not be given public sanction. As for propagating their new faith after apostatizing, the punishment is death via the most excruciating methods. There's no question about that.
#825 Posted by echoboom on July 17, 2007 12:07:00 pm
Khurram:823
We ALL are on the same page here. How can we not. we all read the same book...and this is primary stuff.
The "ground-reality" is that once someone abandons his religion and then starts to even "peacefully-propagate" among others of his former faith..peace is bound to be disturbed....and every effort must be made to avoid this disturbance of peace.
Muslims are NOT supposed to propagate to non-muslim until and unless they are approached by them. The huge surge in conversion to Islam post 911 is like the sun shining & for all to see.
Of course after conquering the enemy there are different rules..for right reasons.
Hindus and Muslims lived peacefully in India precisely for this reason. The christian zeal to convert is getting them what they deserve.
Our Nabi (pbuh) was bringing back on track those MUSLIMS of Ibraheem who had become MUSHRIK...He had nothing whatsoever to do with christans or jews. The pacts within the community is a living proof of recognising this fact.
We ALL are on the same page here. How can we not. we all read the same book...and this is primary stuff.
The "ground-reality" is that once someone abandons his religion and then starts to even "peacefully-propagate" among others of his former faith..peace is bound to be disturbed....and every effort must be made to avoid this disturbance of peace.
Muslims are NOT supposed to propagate to non-muslim until and unless they are approached by them. The huge surge in conversion to Islam post 911 is like the sun shining & for all to see.
Of course after conquering the enemy there are different rules..for right reasons.
Hindus and Muslims lived peacefully in India precisely for this reason. The christian zeal to convert is getting them what they deserve.
Our Nabi (pbuh) was bringing back on track those MUSLIMS of Ibraheem who had become MUSHRIK...He had nothing whatsoever to do with christans or jews. The pacts within the community is a living proof of recognising this fact.
#824 Posted by zeemax on July 17, 2007 12:00:00 pm
#818 Posted by aquaris,
The attack on Lal Masjid was not an attack on (so-called) extremism, it was an attack on Islam itself, whatever version, and has been perceived as such. Those people never hurt a fly. Just picked a few up and dropped them back after serving them with tea and long lectures. On the other hand, there're mafias all over the country, and the murderers of May 12 are right there perfectly identified in the videos and none has been touched.
That's why the Wafaq-ul-Madaras, MMA, and all religiously inclined people regardless of 'maslak' who opposed their methods tooth and nail, are now alienated. Many people say Pakistan is no more an Islamic state. Besides, the lies by the administration has made it worse. The 'foreigners' are still to be found (one declared as such was identified as coming from Attock by his parents), no hostages, no rockets, no tunnels, no landmines, no suicide-bombers, no hardened bunkers (just sandbags), no fortified walls .... and a thousand missing bodies including 600 plus women and children.
So you're right. This will not be brushed under the carpet.
The attack on Lal Masjid was not an attack on (so-called) extremism, it was an attack on Islam itself, whatever version, and has been perceived as such. Those people never hurt a fly. Just picked a few up and dropped them back after serving them with tea and long lectures. On the other hand, there're mafias all over the country, and the murderers of May 12 are right there perfectly identified in the videos and none has been touched.
That's why the Wafaq-ul-Madaras, MMA, and all religiously inclined people regardless of 'maslak' who opposed their methods tooth and nail, are now alienated. Many people say Pakistan is no more an Islamic state. Besides, the lies by the administration has made it worse. The 'foreigners' are still to be found (one declared as such was identified as coming from Attock by his parents), no hostages, no rockets, no tunnels, no landmines, no suicide-bombers, no hardened bunkers (just sandbags), no fortified walls .... and a thousand missing bodies including 600 plus women and children.
So you're right. This will not be brushed under the carpet.
#823 Posted by khurram on July 17, 2007 11:53:29 am
echo/zee/philospher
You guys are being unfair to masadi.
He is not arguing against punishment for treason, sabotage, rebellion or 'making mischief in the land'.
He is talking about people peacefully changing their religion and peacefully propagating their new faith.
You guys are being unfair to masadi.
He is not arguing against punishment for treason, sabotage, rebellion or 'making mischief in the land'.
He is talking about people peacefully changing their religion and peacefully propagating their new faith.
#822 Posted by echoboom on July 17, 2007 11:48:37 am
masadi:
..."that is the mullah's doing not the system of the Quran...."
anyone who comments on Quraan IS a mulla..whether he holds it as a paid job or tries to convince others that he is the sole authority.
I am certainly not one..but you do pretend to be one.
Mulla is a metaphor not a person with beard or gown or one who is orthodox.
Mulla is a Pehlvi word..it is not even farsi! It is of Zorzastrian origin ...and it was their mulla who was reviled and denigrated..just as Peer-i-mughaan and Saaqui were celebrated. This tradition entered Hindvi..and by the time the Britto-Baboons arrived with their "enlightenment" our Kavaa-Gidghs started using it against their own.
Have you ever wondered why the Chritian clergy is never held in such reviled contempt desite the Inquisition & the vatican's horrible past of against scince & free-enquiry?
Marx certainly was the one who had a book; but he was certainly no prophet...I do not think Mirza-Marx has any chance of second coming... Even his first orgasm lasted only 50 seconds in history-era equivalent.
..."that is the mullah's doing not the system of the Quran...."
anyone who comments on Quraan IS a mulla..whether he holds it as a paid job or tries to convince others that he is the sole authority.
I am certainly not one..but you do pretend to be one.
Mulla is a metaphor not a person with beard or gown or one who is orthodox.
Mulla is a Pehlvi word..it is not even farsi! It is of Zorzastrian origin ...and it was their mulla who was reviled and denigrated..just as Peer-i-mughaan and Saaqui were celebrated. This tradition entered Hindvi..and by the time the Britto-Baboons arrived with their "enlightenment" our Kavaa-Gidghs started using it against their own.
Have you ever wondered why the Chritian clergy is never held in such reviled contempt desite the Inquisition & the vatican's horrible past of against scince & free-enquiry?
Marx certainly was the one who had a book; but he was certainly no prophet...I do not think Mirza-Marx has any chance of second coming... Even his first orgasm lasted only 50 seconds in history-era equivalent.
#821 Posted by zeemax on July 17, 2007 11:44:04 am
...contd...#820 Posted by zeemax,
And yes Masadi Mian, I have rudimentary knowledge of Qur'an. It is because I have only learnt from you that in fact Qura'an was written for word-indexing sociologists with a firm grasp of rational reality like your goodself, and not for ordinary tent-dwelling Bedouins like me. Thanks.
And yes Masadi Mian, I have rudimentary knowledge of Qur'an. It is because I have only learnt from you that in fact Qura'an was written for word-indexing sociologists with a firm grasp of rational reality like your goodself, and not for ordinary tent-dwelling Bedouins like me. Thanks.
#820 Posted by zeemax on July 17, 2007 11:39:37 am
#817 Posted by masadi,
The argument is that if someone chooses to disbelieve in Islam after believing in it, the Jihadists like Zeemax, who by the way has rudimentary knowledge of the Quran at best, want to kill them ..
Masadi Mian,
Please do not twist my repeated statements. I never said the above. What I HAVE Said and say again is that PROSELYTIZING apostates such as Hamidm2 should be killed. Anyone who is an apostate at heart or insignificant being mentally incompetent (like the prophetess Sajjah in Abu Bakr's time) should be left alone and laughed away.
The argument is that if someone chooses to disbelieve in Islam after believing in it, the Jihadists like Zeemax, who by the way has rudimentary knowledge of the Quran at best, want to kill them ..
Masadi Mian,
Please do not twist my repeated statements. I never said the above. What I HAVE Said and say again is that PROSELYTIZING apostates such as Hamidm2 should be killed. Anyone who is an apostate at heart or insignificant being mentally incompetent (like the prophetess Sajjah in Abu Bakr's time) should be left alone and laughed away.
#819 Posted by zeemax on July 17, 2007 11:30:49 am
...contd...#815 Posted by zeemax,
... the toddler's name was Hassaan, thereby his wife adopting the name Umm-e-Hassaan (mother of Hassaan).
... the toddler's name was Hassaan, thereby his wife adopting the name Umm-e-Hassaan (mother of Hassaan).
#818 Posted by aquaris on July 17, 2007 11:27:27 am
Dictators are a POISON to any civil Society.
Pakistan own experience , in this regard is a testimony to it.
The first dictator, inspite of " Decade of Progress ", nurturned the seeds of discontent and alienation..resulting in the ultimate seperation of the two wings.
The second dictator, firmly divided this so called , god forsaken Nation (..?....) into every convievable division.
Provincial,religious,consititutional...etc...etc...etc....and worst of all ethinic....
and Pakistan is still reeling under the impact of those divisions....
and the gulf is widening day by day..
This third Dictator has firmly put Pakistan on the path of Disintegration....... Period.
#817 Posted by masadi on July 17, 2007 11:26:37 am
echo writes "Once it is established that the one engaged in sabotage and sedition against muslims ( call it apostasy or whatever) he deserves a punishment by the Islamic State."
Mian learn the meaning of apostasy, you are misusing it. If someone is planning on killing Muslims bagher e haq, ie. unjustified, he has to be stopped of course, if anyone is planning on killing any human being Muslim or not begher e haq, he or she needs to be stopped as well, no argument there. The argument is that if someone chooses to disbelieve in Islam after believing in it, the Jihadists like Zeemax, who by the way has rudimentary knowledge of the Quran at best, want to kill them- that is an outrage against the Quran and Islam. Regarding the Islamic state, that itself is an invention against the Quran. Islam is a deen, a social system in which there is no rigid bureaucratic structure except for the all encompassing reality of la ilaha il allah, within that framework of the bare minimum, it allows maximum freedom on how people can, based on justice design their institutions. It does not provide a canonized all encompassing pre moulded cast for all societies and all times, that is the mullah's doing not the system of the Quran.
Zeemax writes "Yaar GT, even the method and frequency of prayer is not in the Qura'an, so 5 times Namaz (AND with different sets of rikaats)is out of the window. Then, only food and drink is prohibited during fasting ... so smoking pot is OK. Many other things like that"
If I had a dollar every time a hadithist said this in order to legitimize ALL hadith (even those that do not deal with the above), I'd have over a million, and then I wouldnt need, to quote hamid, return to NY and drive a cab. Actually like I said, the Quran says that if the trees were pens and the oceans with more oceans to back them up were ink even then Allah's words wouldn't be exhausted, so you need to think why he CHOSE not to give you discriptions of the salah etc, even though every detail of them is mentioned in the Quran? Because these things are not transmitted through word but through witnessing and where to witness them is precisely pointed out in the Quran "shatar al mesjid el haraam", that is where you get the physical practice of salah from. Regarding those other allegations of things not mentioned in the Quran, that shows your rudimentary knowledge of it, but that certainly does not mean that everything outside the Quran becomes part of Islam or that inventions that have become part of Islam then become an argument for the inadequacy of the Quran. When Allah is saying that he has neglected NOTHING in the book, these CVI followers, followers of the Crusader Version of Islam, ie.Jihadists tell Allah that he left out this and that....go figure...their Islam is not Islam its sloganeering and facilitating the higher immorality of the Shaitan of the present, i.e. the US elite...
Mian learn the meaning of apostasy, you are misusing it. If someone is planning on killing Muslims bagher e haq, ie. unjustified, he has to be stopped of course, if anyone is planning on killing any human being Muslim or not begher e haq, he or she needs to be stopped as well, no argument there. The argument is that if someone chooses to disbelieve in Islam after believing in it, the Jihadists like Zeemax, who by the way has rudimentary knowledge of the Quran at best, want to kill them- that is an outrage against the Quran and Islam. Regarding the Islamic state, that itself is an invention against the Quran. Islam is a deen, a social system in which there is no rigid bureaucratic structure except for the all encompassing reality of la ilaha il allah, within that framework of the bare minimum, it allows maximum freedom on how people can, based on justice design their institutions. It does not provide a canonized all encompassing pre moulded cast for all societies and all times, that is the mullah's doing not the system of the Quran.
Zeemax writes "Yaar GT, even the method and frequency of prayer is not in the Qura'an, so 5 times Namaz (AND with different sets of rikaats)is out of the window. Then, only food and drink is prohibited during fasting ... so smoking pot is OK. Many other things like that"
If I had a dollar every time a hadithist said this in order to legitimize ALL hadith (even those that do not deal with the above), I'd have over a million, and then I wouldnt need, to quote hamid, return to NY and drive a cab. Actually like I said, the Quran says that if the trees were pens and the oceans with more oceans to back them up were ink even then Allah's words wouldn't be exhausted, so you need to think why he CHOSE not to give you discriptions of the salah etc, even though every detail of them is mentioned in the Quran? Because these things are not transmitted through word but through witnessing and where to witness them is precisely pointed out in the Quran "shatar al mesjid el haraam", that is where you get the physical practice of salah from. Regarding those other allegations of things not mentioned in the Quran, that shows your rudimentary knowledge of it, but that certainly does not mean that everything outside the Quran becomes part of Islam or that inventions that have become part of Islam then become an argument for the inadequacy of the Quran. When Allah is saying that he has neglected NOTHING in the book, these CVI followers, followers of the Crusader Version of Islam, ie.Jihadists tell Allah that he left out this and that....go figure...their Islam is not Islam its sloganeering and facilitating the higher immorality of the Shaitan of the present, i.e. the US elite...
#816 Posted by aquaris on July 17, 2007 11:24:44 am
Dictators are a POISON to any civil Society.
Pakistan own experience , in this regard is a testimony to it.
The first dictator, inspite of " Decade of Progress ", nurturned the seeds of discontent and alienation..resulting in the ultimate seperation of the two wings.
The second dictator, firmly divided this so called , god forsaken Nation (..?....) into every convievable division.
Provincial,religious,consititutional...etc...etc...etc....and worst of all ethinic....
and Pakistan is still reeling under the impact of those divisions....
and the gulf is widening day by day..
This third Dictator has firmly put Pakistan on the path of Disintegration....... Period.
#815 Posted by zeemax on July 17, 2007 11:10:16 am
#814 Posted by GT,
none of Aziz's family (except his brother) died.'
GT ... Abdul Aziz's toddler son died ... whose body has still not been handed over, besides their elderly mother of-course.
But you're right. Entire Waziristan is now officially up in rebellion, plus Swat. It won't take long before it spreads. I think, we're in a civil war.
none of Aziz's family (except his brother) died.'
GT ... Abdul Aziz's toddler son died ... whose body has still not been handed over, besides their elderly mother of-course.
But you're right. Entire Waziristan is now officially up in rebellion, plus Swat. It won't take long before it spreads. I think, we're in a civil war.
#814 Posted by GT on July 17, 2007 10:45:20 am
I believe that the Lal Masjid fallout will be significant. It would not surprise me even if Punjab were to be shaken. The Gobelian machinery is already, I believe, countering it. A friend of mine in Lahore informed me of the following rumour:
'The whole thing was actually planned by Abdul Aziz and the dictator (who are very close) to get rid of Abdul Rashid. As a proof it is pointed out that none of Aziz's family (except his brother) died.'
Is any Lahorian chowky aware of this rumour?
'The whole thing was actually planned by Abdul Aziz and the dictator (who are very close) to get rid of Abdul Rashid. As a proof it is pointed out that none of Aziz's family (except his brother) died.'
Is any Lahorian chowky aware of this rumour?
#813 Posted by zeemax on July 17, 2007 10:11:22 am
This was a Muslim.
Who had the courage to say to the media on a cellphone in a perfectly calm voice moments before his murder, that now I can see them right in front who have come to kill me ... and had said what ever he did, was not for any personal glory but for Allah's 'Nizam' and people should continue that.
It appears many people indeed heeded him.
Who had the courage to say to the media on a cellphone in a perfectly calm voice moments before his murder, that now I can see them right in front who have come to kill me ... and had said what ever he did, was not for any personal glory but for Allah's 'Nizam' and people should continue that.
It appears many people indeed heeded him.
#812 Posted by zeemax on July 17, 2007 10:01:11 am
#809 Posted by GT,
Yaar GT, even the method and frequency of prayer is not in the Qura'an, so 5 times Namaz (AND with different sets of rikaats)is out of the window. Then, only food and drink is prohibited during fasting ... so smoking pot is OK. Many other things like that.
Pls ask masadi saheb if his Islam originated somewhere in some Dargah in Nepal?
Not that I have anything against any of the above though ... but just for argument's sake ... :)
Yaar GT, even the method and frequency of prayer is not in the Qura'an, so 5 times Namaz (AND with different sets of rikaats)is out of the window. Then, only food and drink is prohibited during fasting ... so smoking pot is OK. Many other things like that.
Pls ask masadi saheb if his Islam originated somewhere in some Dargah in Nepal?
Not that I have anything against any of the above though ... but just for argument's sake ... :)
#811 Posted by zeemax on July 17, 2007 9:50:24 am
#808 Posted by philosopher,
Yaar Philo Bhai, you don't have to defend "zee's version of islam". You can see millions defending it around the world.
Masadi's philosophy of 'God will deal with them' is real weird. What he means is to turn around and give them grease when he's being buggered ... and let 'God deal with them', but in the meantime let 'them' have all the fun.
Don't resist, don't fight, don't punish, don't get weapons, love thy enemy, and fcuk his wife and let him fcuk yours. That's what Masadi means.
Thanks, but no thanks.
Yaar Philo Bhai, you don't have to defend "zee's version of islam". You can see millions defending it around the world.
Masadi's philosophy of 'God will deal with them' is real weird. What he means is to turn around and give them grease when he's being buggered ... and let 'God deal with them', but in the meantime let 'them' have all the fun.
Don't resist, don't fight, don't punish, don't get weapons, love thy enemy, and fcuk his wife and let him fcuk yours. That's what Masadi means.
Thanks, but no thanks.
#810 Posted by echoboom on July 17, 2007 9:46:10 am
GT:807
Instructions for Jadaal (wrangling, debate, argument, coercing.....etc etc) and Qataal ( outright murder , killing,
c-punishing ) are not only sanctioned but muslims as individuals are exhorted to do so.
An Islamic State is or should be a sum-total & a mirror image of such ethos...and carry out the injunctions of the Quraa'an under such collective will.
There is no mystery in this & nothing sacred or secular about it either.
A very wise and clear-cult direction.
Instructions for Jadaal (wrangling, debate, argument, coercing.....etc etc) and Qataal ( outright murder , killing,
c-punishing ) are not only sanctioned but muslims as individuals are exhorted to do so.
An Islamic State is or should be a sum-total & a mirror image of such ethos...and carry out the injunctions of the Quraa'an under such collective will.
There is no mystery in this & nothing sacred or secular about it either.
A very wise and clear-cult direction.
#809 Posted by GT on July 17, 2007 9:31:00 am
Reply to #807 by echoboom:
Boom sahib:
Now you are getting a bit rattled by masadi aren't you? You say:
'Once it is established that the one engaged in sabotage and sedition against muslims ( call it apostasy or whatever) he deserves a punishment by the Islamic State."
I am sorry, but I believe that masadi will not give you even that. As far as I understand masadi, historical precedence is not enough for him to justify a policy that is not formulated in the Koran. You got to argue about its merit based on present circumstances. And if such an arguement is acceptable in a democratic forum then so be it, otherwise forget it. He is not asking you to forget history, as kaal and zee have implied earlier, he is simply asking you to defend your policy based on present day reality.
Boom sahib, I do not believe that masadi is going around in circles. He has been saying the same thing for a long time. I would not call him any of your 'oons'. He is simply puritanical about the Koran and democracy ... reminds me of Calvin at times.
Boom sahib:
Now you are getting a bit rattled by masadi aren't you? You say:
'Once it is established that the one engaged in sabotage and sedition against muslims ( call it apostasy or whatever) he deserves a punishment by the Islamic State."
I am sorry, but I believe that masadi will not give you even that. As far as I understand masadi, historical precedence is not enough for him to justify a policy that is not formulated in the Koran. You got to argue about its merit based on present circumstances. And if such an arguement is acceptable in a democratic forum then so be it, otherwise forget it. He is not asking you to forget history, as kaal and zee have implied earlier, he is simply asking you to defend your policy based on present day reality.
Boom sahib, I do not believe that masadi is going around in circles. He has been saying the same thing for a long time. I would not call him any of your 'oons'. He is simply puritanical about the Koran and democracy ... reminds me of Calvin at times.
#808 Posted by philosopher on July 17, 2007 8:50:11 am
Humsab/Masadi
pidare sahib...thanx for your question...i won't diagree with his article long as it has practical value.. when he says that ''according to situation'' so why cannot we follow ''zee's version of islam to counter other ideologies. In this situation Islamic civilization needs a comprehensive ideological system to fight other ideologies which are trying to overcome/penetrate it.
If we stick to Masadi's version in this situation we won't be having even this moderate version after a couple of decades.
I won't disagree with Masadi when he says that there is no clergy in islam but denying a scoio_political version on the analogy of ' no punishment for trimming beard' and the 'no punishment for apostatsy'is what i have never expected from a person like Masadi.
how would we implement islamic family laws if we don't have islamic socio-political system? what if liberaloon muslims like 'irshad manji' start campaigning in support of the lesbian marriages?? how would you stop them? with 'piyaar mohabbat bhaari batain???
pidare sahib...thanx for your question...i won't diagree with his article long as it has practical value.. when he says that ''according to situation'' so why cannot we follow ''zee's version of islam to counter other ideologies. In this situation Islamic civilization needs a comprehensive ideological system to fight other ideologies which are trying to overcome/penetrate it.
If we stick to Masadi's version in this situation we won't be having even this moderate version after a couple of decades.
I won't disagree with Masadi when he says that there is no clergy in islam but denying a scoio_political version on the analogy of ' no punishment for trimming beard' and the 'no punishment for apostatsy'is what i have never expected from a person like Masadi.
how would we implement islamic family laws if we don't have islamic socio-political system? what if liberaloon muslims like 'irshad manji' start campaigning in support of the lesbian marriages?? how would you stop them? with 'piyaar mohabbat bhaari batain???
#807 Posted by echoboom on July 17, 2007 7:38:55 am
masadi:
You love to go around in circles , don't you?
Once it is established that the one engaged in sabotage and sedition against muslims ( call it apostasy or whatever) he deserves a punishment by the Islamic State.
Rest of what you say is simply details which can be discussed with those who specialize in these matters.
P.S: I am not very qualified in this area. There are plenty of sources available even for you...and I did suggest that you access them. Have you not noticed that, unlike you, I do not sound authoritative in every disciplines?
You love to go around in circles , don't you?
Once it is established that the one engaged in sabotage and sedition against muslims ( call it apostasy or whatever) he deserves a punishment by the Islamic State.
Rest of what you say is simply details which can be discussed with those who specialize in these matters.
P.S: I am not very qualified in this area. There are plenty of sources available even for you...and I did suggest that you access them. Have you not noticed that, unlike you, I do not sound authoritative in every disciplines?
#806 Posted by zeemax on July 17, 2007 4:03:54 am
" ... after the guns stop firing and the hostages are out, whether dead or alive?"
So now that the guns have stopped firing and this article is near its timely death, where are the 'hostages' whether dead or alive?
So now that the guns have stopped firing and this article is near its timely death, where are the 'hostages' whether dead or alive?
#805 Posted by masadi on July 17, 2007 12:46:42 am
Philosopher writes " So in that kind of system if you let go apostate and 'deviant' so easily it will be recepie for disaster,it will minimize its utility as a socio-political system "
That is your "Islam", not the Islam of the Quran. The Islam of the Quran is established in the heavens and on earth, regardless of human bs, it is not threatened by "apostates"- you are apparently unaware of this aspect of the Quran and yet the "comprehensive socio-political system" you talk about is all invented through the ages as Islam got clergified and "religionized". Except for broad guidelines the keep you in place among the scheme of things, the Quran does not provide comprehensive control of behavior that stunts growth and prevents thinking from developing. It gives maximum freedom within a very narrow set of rules. Thus its injunctions against "inventing" against Allah for which no sanction is found in the Quran as also the statements that "I find nothing forbidden except a,b,c,d.." and so forth.
Then he writes "Masadi misses a point here when he says 'God will deal with them' off course he will but what is jurisprudence there for??"
Just like you cannot punish me for trimming my hair (it is not considered a crime to be punished according to the Quran) similarly you cannot punish an apostate (because it is not considered by the Quran to be a crime punishable in THIS WORLD). You cannot invent laws where none exist and then assume the role of Allah by translating his Day of Judment specific actions into what you do in this world.
That is your "Islam", not the Islam of the Quran. The Islam of the Quran is established in the heavens and on earth, regardless of human bs, it is not threatened by "apostates"- you are apparently unaware of this aspect of the Quran and yet the "comprehensive socio-political system" you talk about is all invented through the ages as Islam got clergified and "religionized". Except for broad guidelines the keep you in place among the scheme of things, the Quran does not provide comprehensive control of behavior that stunts growth and prevents thinking from developing. It gives maximum freedom within a very narrow set of rules. Thus its injunctions against "inventing" against Allah for which no sanction is found in the Quran as also the statements that "I find nothing forbidden except a,b,c,d.." and so forth.
Then he writes "Masadi misses a point here when he says 'God will deal with them' off course he will but what is jurisprudence there for??"
Just like you cannot punish me for trimming my hair (it is not considered a crime to be punished according to the Quran) similarly you cannot punish an apostate (because it is not considered by the Quran to be a crime punishable in THIS WORLD). You cannot invent laws where none exist and then assume the role of Allah by translating his Day of Judment specific actions into what you do in this world.
#804 Posted by masadi on July 17, 2007 12:27:34 am
echo wrote " One "writer" used words...the one who expressed opinion that such a person be killed also used words. Did something happen? "
Yes, the one who used "words" to seek his killing had authority among a large number of people which meant his words would be carried out in deed. Regarding the first, that damn fool wrote a piece of fiction for whatever perverse motive, regarding the second he invented a lie against Allah by making the "killing of apostates" a part (through invention) of Islam. The crime of the second is no less than the crime of the first and I'll be damned if I "turn the other cheek" to allow inventors and followers of the Crusader Version of Islam dominate the Muslim world because they are minions of the Shaitan, they dance to his tunes. By the way philosopher the Mullah's struggle against colonization has only amounted to facilitation of their perverse ends, it has done absolutely nothing to either preserve the Islamic identity (which it was eradicate moreso than preserve)or to check colonial expansion. Why all of you reactionaries get so worked up when what I say is backed by the Quran, proves that your "Islam Islam" chatter is just hollow sloganeering. By the way echo, I was not suggesting "turning the other cheek", where did you gather that from in my posts? Or are you arguing against "straw men" that exist only in the magical worldview of the Jihadists...
Yes, the one who used "words" to seek his killing had authority among a large number of people which meant his words would be carried out in deed. Regarding the first, that damn fool wrote a piece of fiction for whatever perverse motive, regarding the second he invented a lie against Allah by making the "killing of apostates" a part (through invention) of Islam. The crime of the second is no less than the crime of the first and I'll be damned if I "turn the other cheek" to allow inventors and followers of the Crusader Version of Islam dominate the Muslim world because they are minions of the Shaitan, they dance to his tunes. By the way philosopher the Mullah's struggle against colonization has only amounted to facilitation of their perverse ends, it has done absolutely nothing to either preserve the Islamic identity (which it was eradicate moreso than preserve)or to check colonial expansion. Why all of you reactionaries get so worked up when what I say is backed by the Quran, proves that your "Islam Islam" chatter is just hollow sloganeering. By the way echo, I was not suggesting "turning the other cheek", where did you gather that from in my posts? Or are you arguing against "straw men" that exist only in the magical worldview of the Jihadists...
#803 Posted by Humsab on July 16, 2007 11:13:11 pm
Philosopher ji
What are your views on the views exprssed in the article posted below? I think you will not agree to most of it.
Regards
Islam Is A Faith Like Any Other Religion
17 Jul 2007, Tahir Mahmood
Believing in the existence of One Supreme and Omnipresent God, one tends to respect the spirituality of all religious faiths as the common heritage of mankind. If there is a God, it has to be One: there cannot be one God for Muslims and another for followers of other religions. If He is merciful and compassionate as the Qur'an says, He cannot reserve Heaven for one chosen community and commit all others to Hell.
In accordance with the Qur'anic exhortation that God sent His messengers to all parts of the globe only some of whom the Holy Book names, include among them Moses and Christ, Buddha and Mahavir, Ram and Krishna, and give them equal respect. The Holy Vedas and the Bhagavad Gita are, like the Torah and the Bible, covered by the Qur'anic concept of suhif-il-oula or earlier scriptures.
Believing in the symbolic and metaphorical nature of teachings of the Qur'an and all other holy books, i do not always take them literally and hardly adhere to any rites and rituals. I have a firm faith in the divinity of the Holy Qur'an, but find no sense in reading it ritually without understanding its meaning and message. Prophet Muhammad was a great social reformer whose revolutionary teachings were much ahead of his time. His authentic saying 'verily i am a human being so obey me in religious matters but not necessarily in worldly affairs' is the guiding principle of my life.
Whatever Prophet Muhammad did in his personal life is not Sunnat to be blindly followed by all for all times to come.
There is nothing wrong in adopting innocuous local customs. Everything Arab is not necessarily Islamic, too. No religion can claim to have a monopoly on truth. If religion has to be retained in society it has to be as a cementing force, not a dividing element. If religions create rift between people we would be happy without any.
Followers of various religions claim the existence of rudiments, or even complete formulations, of human rights in their scriptures and other holy books. Cons-picuous violations of human rights should not take place in the name of religion. Religions are not ends in themselves but means to achieve justice, fairplay and humane solutions to all our societal and individual problems. Rigid rules of religion should be ignored where this ensures a more humane behaviour.
The following is a translation of my Urdu poem: "What comes out of the core of my heart do i state/ Humanity is suffering, and a cure may i suggest i may not be keeping fast on a hot summer day/ To the hungry but a piece of bread i must give away/ Obligatory religious tax i might be failing to pay/ But a crying child i should make smile on my way/ ...A helping hand to cross the road i offer to the blind/ Rather than offering to a shrine a devotional cover/ Offering a garment to the poorly clad do i prefer/ Flowers for worship i don't pick every morning/ But those thorns on the road i keep on removing/ Ram's name i do not keep on ritually uttering/ But a promise made to anyone i must be fulfilling/ These values of humanism as my religion i cherish/ Everyone else's religion too these values be, i wish".
The writer is member, Law Commission of India.
What are your views on the views exprssed in the article posted below? I think you will not agree to most of it.
Regards
Islam Is A Faith Like Any Other Religion
17 Jul 2007, Tahir Mahmood
Believing in the existence of One Supreme and Omnipresent God, one tends to respect the spirituality of all religious faiths as the common heritage of mankind. If there is a God, it has to be One: there cannot be one God for Muslims and another for followers of other religions. If He is merciful and compassionate as the Qur'an says, He cannot reserve Heaven for one chosen community and commit all others to Hell.
In accordance with the Qur'anic exhortation that God sent His messengers to all parts of the globe only some of whom the Holy Book names, include among them Moses and Christ, Buddha and Mahavir, Ram and Krishna, and give them equal respect. The Holy Vedas and the Bhagavad Gita are, like the Torah and the Bible, covered by the Qur'anic concept of suhif-il-oula or earlier scriptures.
Believing in the symbolic and metaphorical nature of teachings of the Qur'an and all other holy books, i do not always take them literally and hardly adhere to any rites and rituals. I have a firm faith in the divinity of the Holy Qur'an, but find no sense in reading it ritually without understanding its meaning and message. Prophet Muhammad was a great social reformer whose revolutionary teachings were much ahead of his time. His authentic saying 'verily i am a human being so obey me in religious matters but not necessarily in worldly affairs' is the guiding principle of my life.
Whatever Prophet Muhammad did in his personal life is not Sunnat to be blindly followed by all for all times to come.
There is nothing wrong in adopting innocuous local customs. Everything Arab is not necessarily Islamic, too. No religion can claim to have a monopoly on truth. If religion has to be retained in society it has to be as a cementing force, not a dividing element. If religions create rift between people we would be happy without any.
Followers of various religions claim the existence of rudiments, or even complete formulations, of human rights in their scriptures and other holy books. Cons-picuous violations of human rights should not take place in the name of religion. Religions are not ends in themselves but means to achieve justice, fairplay and humane solutions to all our societal and individual problems. Rigid rules of religion should be ignored where this ensures a more humane behaviour.
The following is a translation of my Urdu poem: "What comes out of the core of my heart do i state/ Humanity is suffering, and a cure may i suggest i may not be keeping fast on a hot summer day/ To the hungry but a piece of bread i must give away/ Obligatory religious tax i might be failing to pay/ But a crying child i should make smile on my way/ ...A helping hand to cross the road i offer to the blind/ Rather than offering to a shrine a devotional cover/ Offering a garment to the poorly clad do i prefer/ Flowers for worship i don't pick every morning/ But those thorns on the road i keep on removing/ Ram's name i do not keep on ritually uttering/ But a promise made to anyone i must be fulfilling/ These values of humanism as my religion i cherish/ Everyone else's religion too these values be, i wish".
The writer is member, Law Commission of India.
#802 Posted by mohar11 on July 16, 2007 8:30:05 pm
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2007 7\17\story_17-7-2007_pg3_2
This paki wants to teach mullahs the ideals of non-violence... :)
This paki wants to teach mullahs the ideals of non-violence... :)
#801 Posted by dost_mittar on July 16, 2007 7:47:02 pm
#899:
The word "against" is missing in the sentence "I won’t be at all surprised if a survey reveals that a majority of Muslims are indeed againstOBL and his brand of Islam.
The word "against" is missing in the sentence "I won’t be at all surprised if a survey reveals that a majority of Muslims are indeed againstOBL and his brand of Islam.
#800 Posted by dost_mittar on July 16, 2007 7:41:03 pm
anil, tahmed:
Sorry, I did not get back to you earlier. The new format did not allow me to log-in until chowk modified my nick. The new format makes it cumbersome to search for your interacts but here is my response based on the memory of their contents.
anil:
No, I am not qualified to write an article on the Quran. First, I am not a Muslim and, given my background, I am bound to have some biases if not prejudices. I do not respect even my own religion, so cannot be expected to review the sacred book of anyone else’s religion.
Secondly, I have not technically even read the quran, merely an Urdu translation. Each language has its own unique features and nuances which get lost in the translation. My reading of the Quran revealed an angry, jealous and vengeful God, but one who is not without mercy and grace for those who genuinely feel remorse for their acts. I did not see the Quran as a document of peace; unlike the Hindu mantras, the surahs do not end with shanti, shanti; the repeated message is one of severe punishment for those who do not accept monotheism and who refuse to obey Allah and his Prophet Mohammad. The tone is one of fire and brimstone reminiscent of many passages of the Old Testament. But then, this may be all due to my own biases.
Thirdly, the study of the Quran is a vast subject for which people spend many years at places like Qoom, Deoband and Al Azhar. Each surah and ayah has to be studied in depth with respect to the sequence of its revelation and the context in which it was revealed with the help of one or more ahadith. It is such a study which may lead one to decide what the core message of the Quran really is. I have absolutely no expertise in this area.
tahmed:
You are right that many prominent Muslims –even wahabis- have criticized, indeed condemned terrorism and terrorists. I won’t be at all surprised if a survey reveals that a majority of Muslims are indeed OBL and his brand of Islam. But I was referring to the criticism of Islam and not of terrorism or terrorists.
You are right that there is no equivalent of hamidm among Hindu chowkies. This is first and foremost because gifted individuals like hamidm are rare in the population at large, let alone among chowk Indians. Secondly, hamidm has many worthy opponents, including yourself, who are vehemently opposed to his view of Islam and so there is a repeated discussion and debate. Among hindu chowkies, there are few who would support caste system and those who do probably want to stay in the closet. The only exception I can think of is Harimou and his rants also seem to be largely reserved not for dalits (or achoots as you people call them) but for reservations for the other backward castes in Tamil Nadu whom he derisively calls Masanmuthu. And some of us even sympathise his views to some extent. I am a firm supporter of affirmative action to remedy historical injustices still embedded in the system. But I also would accept that quotas are a blunt instrument and can result in anomalies, such as the daughter of a poor Brahmin widow with 98% marks in an entrance examination for a medical college being rejected in favour of the son of an IAS officer with 60% marks. To put it in a Pakistani context, it would be like the daughter of poor Bihari Mohajir with 98% marks being rejected in favour of the son of the Sindhi Benazir Bhutto. One has to live with such anomalies during a period of transition.
Sorry, I did not get back to you earlier. The new format did not allow me to log-in until chowk modified my nick. The new format makes it cumbersome to search for your interacts but here is my response based on the memory of their contents.
anil:
No, I am not qualified to write an article on the Quran. First, I am not a Muslim and, given my background, I am bound to have some biases if not prejudices. I do not respect even my own religion, so cannot be expected to review the sacred book of anyone else’s religion.
Secondly, I have not technically even read the quran, merely an Urdu translation. Each language has its own unique features and nuances which get lost in the translation. My reading of the Quran revealed an angry, jealous and vengeful God, but one who is not without mercy and grace for those who genuinely feel remorse for their acts. I did not see the Quran as a document of peace; unlike the Hindu mantras, the surahs do not end with shanti, shanti; the repeated message is one of severe punishment for those who do not accept monotheism and who refuse to obey Allah and his Prophet Mohammad. The tone is one of fire and brimstone reminiscent of many passages of the Old Testament. But then, this may be all due to my own biases.
Thirdly, the study of the Quran is a vast subject for which people spend many years at places like Qoom, Deoband and Al Azhar. Each surah and ayah has to be studied in depth with respect to the sequence of its revelation and the context in which it was revealed with the help of one or more ahadith. It is such a study which may lead one to decide what the core message of the Quran really is. I have absolutely no expertise in this area.
tahmed:
You are right that many prominent Muslims –even wahabis- have criticized, indeed condemned terrorism and terrorists. I won’t be at all surprised if a survey reveals that a majority of Muslims are indeed OBL and his brand of Islam. But I was referring to the criticism of Islam and not of terrorism or terrorists.
You are right that there is no equivalent of hamidm among Hindu chowkies. This is first and foremost because gifted individuals like hamidm are rare in the population at large, let alone among chowk Indians. Secondly, hamidm has many worthy opponents, including yourself, who are vehemently opposed to his view of Islam and so there is a repeated discussion and debate. Among hindu chowkies, there are few who would support caste system and those who do probably want to stay in the closet. The only exception I can think of is Harimou and his rants also seem to be largely reserved not for dalits (or achoots as you people call them) but for reservations for the other backward castes in Tamil Nadu whom he derisively calls Masanmuthu. And some of us even sympathise his views to some extent. I am a firm supporter of affirmative action to remedy historical injustices still embedded in the system. But I also would accept that quotas are a blunt instrument and can result in anomalies, such as the daughter of a poor Brahmin widow with 98% marks in an entrance examination for a medical college being rejected in favour of the son of an IAS officer with 60% marks. To put it in a Pakistani context, it would be like the daughter of poor Bihari Mohajir with 98% marks being rejected in favour of the son of the Sindhi Benazir Bhutto. One has to live with such anomalies during a period of transition.
#799 Posted by krishna_abcd on July 16, 2007 5:22:02 pm
#793 Posted by ana
[arjun,
Dude, can you please go beyond what Mohammad did with Aisha? None of them live in this century to know what the consequences of such actions are, and unfortunately no one cared then. I think you are a little more intelligent and have a little more at your fingertips than rehashing something that happened centuries ago. Unless you want to be like those who prefer going back to the 7th century for their own bloody, selfish reasons.
Keh diya na? . . . ]
I think the world would much rather not look at or talk about gory, sordid things, like for example mo's life.
But if mo's followers wish to keep bringing up issues involving the instruction manual that mo is supposed to have obtained from a winged creature in a cave, and keep thumping the instruction manual and have endless arguments over it, and continue to make the world an unsafe place for decent human beings, then I guess one HAS to try and convince them that a pedophile, mass murderer, serial rapist and looter was probably lying about the winged creature, and therefore the manual is just a cheap cut and paste job from the Old and New Testaments.
[arjun,
Dude, can you please go beyond what Mohammad did with Aisha? None of them live in this century to know what the consequences of such actions are, and unfortunately no one cared then. I think you are a little more intelligent and have a little more at your fingertips than rehashing something that happened centuries ago. Unless you want to be like those who prefer going back to the 7th century for their own bloody, selfish reasons.
Keh diya na? . . . ]
I think the world would much rather not look at or talk about gory, sordid things, like for example mo's life.
But if mo's followers wish to keep bringing up issues involving the instruction manual that mo is supposed to have obtained from a winged creature in a cave, and keep thumping the instruction manual and have endless arguments over it, and continue to make the world an unsafe place for decent human beings, then I guess one HAS to try and convince them that a pedophile, mass murderer, serial rapist and looter was probably lying about the winged creature, and therefore the manual is just a cheap cut and paste job from the Old and New Testaments.
#798 Posted by tahmed32 on July 16, 2007 5:19:24 pm
arjun: Giving you your daily dose of lithium makes me an Islamofascist I guess. This is what I get for free medical treatment!! :-(
#797 Posted by arjun2 on July 16, 2007 5:01:36 pm
#793 Posted by ana on July 16, 2007 3:57:43 pm
Dude, can you please go beyond what Mohammad did with Aisha?
this isn't about mo or aisha...this is about the islamofascists who think they have an allah given right to not be offended and make threats against people whose posts they find offensive..
btw: how're you doing?
Dude, can you please go beyond what Mohammad did with Aisha?
this isn't about mo or aisha...this is about the islamofascists who think they have an allah given right to not be offended and make threats against people whose posts they find offensive..
btw: how're you doing?
#796 Posted by ana on July 16, 2007 4:25:14 pm
kaalchakra,
yahaan ka rasta kaun bhoolta hai? Thank you for the welcome, but I don't think I have ever really left this place, even with the brief hiatus. I just don't actively (or regularly perhaps is better) participate anymore. Hope all is well with you.
arjun,
speaking of forced child marriages to adults. . .(you were at least) did you read about the Bangladeshi girls who helped stop their 13 yr old girlfriend from being forcibly married to a 23 year old. The times are a-changing somewhere. :)
yahaan ka rasta kaun bhoolta hai? Thank you for the welcome, but I don't think I have ever really left this place, even with the brief hiatus. I just don't actively (or regularly perhaps is better) participate anymore. Hope all is well with you.
arjun,
speaking of forced child marriages to adults. . .(you were at least) did you read about the Bangladeshi girls who helped stop their 13 yr old girlfriend from being forcibly married to a 23 year old. The times are a-changing somewhere. :)
#794 Posted by philosopher on July 16, 2007 3:58:45 pm
PM
(((No, it doesn't. But you seemed to rationalizing Islam's right to kill apostates, on the grounds of the need to maintain its integrity. That sounds like an attempt to provide an objective justification. Correct me if wrong))))
I am not giving 'objective' justification of the killing of apostate in the sense you are thinking. This objectivity is not ''universal'' in the mathematical sense.if you have the faith in the baiscs it is justified(agreed with kaal...in fact i am not suprised he has said...coz i knwo his stance on it)hence 'objective'.
The internal structure of ideology will determine what it needs to preserve itself against all other ideologies and systems.At the end of the day its all down to the ''acceptence'' of the basics of that ideology.if you accpet that all your questions are answered.
PM
(((Also, please do define the word "apostate", esp. with reference to what I said about choice in 'accpeting' the faith in the first place)))
Apostasy means...renouncing Islam's fundamental beliefs or try to alter it.
other definition are bit controversial.we will discuss it tomorrow.
if you gentlemen are intrested....i would like to discuss islamic concept of PATRIARCHY tomorrow....there is a lot of confusion regarding this issue....i wanna bring up some intresting dimension of this issue...
though islam gave some very important rights to women which were quite revolutionary at that time but...
my thesis is that PATRIARCHY is a very important part of islamic SPIRTUAL philosophy.....
It doesn't merely have ADMINISTRATIVE aspect as most people believe.At the same time i will try to show that there is no MISOGYNY in islam.
see ye guys tomorrow.
(((No, it doesn't. But you seemed to rationalizing Islam's right to kill apostates, on the grounds of the need to maintain its integrity. That sounds like an attempt to provide an objective justification. Correct me if wrong))))
I am not giving 'objective' justification of the killing of apostate in the sense you are thinking. This objectivity is not ''universal'' in the mathematical sense.if you have the faith in the baiscs it is justified(agreed with kaal...in fact i am not suprised he has said...coz i knwo his stance on it)hence 'objective'.
The internal structure of ideology will determine what it needs to preserve itself against all other ideologies and systems.At the end of the day its all down to the ''acceptence'' of the basics of that ideology.if you accpet that all your questions are answered.
PM
(((Also, please do define the word "apostate", esp. with reference to what I said about choice in 'accpeting' the faith in the first place)))
Apostasy means...renouncing Islam's fundamental beliefs or try to alter it.
other definition are bit controversial.we will discuss it tomorrow.
if you gentlemen are intrested....i would like to discuss islamic concept of PATRIARCHY tomorrow....there is a lot of confusion regarding this issue....i wanna bring up some intresting dimension of this issue...
though islam gave some very important rights to women which were quite revolutionary at that time but...
my thesis is that PATRIARCHY is a very important part of islamic SPIRTUAL philosophy.....
It doesn't merely have ADMINISTRATIVE aspect as most people believe.At the same time i will try to show that there is no MISOGYNY in islam.
see ye guys tomorrow.
#793 Posted by ana on July 16, 2007 3:57:43 pm
arjun,
Dude, can you please go beyond what Mohammad did with Aisha? None of them live in this century to know what the consequences of such actions are, and unfortunately no one cared then. I think you are a little more intelligent and have a little more at your fingertips than rehashing something that happened centuries ago. Unless you want to be like those who prefer going back to the 7th century for their own bloody, selfish reasons.
Keh diya na? . . .
Dude, can you please go beyond what Mohammad did with Aisha? None of them live in this century to know what the consequences of such actions are, and unfortunately no one cared then. I think you are a little more intelligent and have a little more at your fingertips than rehashing something that happened centuries ago. Unless you want to be like those who prefer going back to the 7th century for their own bloody, selfish reasons.
Keh diya na? . . .
#792 Posted by KaalChakra on July 16, 2007 3:56:48 pm
Hopefully the last sentence in # 791 will be seen as the opinion of a non-Muslim, who lacks faith. A believer would naturally accept it God's word. (and that's justification enough for most people).
#791 Posted by KaalChakra on July 16, 2007 3:53:01 pm
PM, Islam, as much as I can see, is NOT out-and-out fascism, dripping in red blood all the time. :)
It is actually a great system, even a generous and wonderful system, a progressive system, for those who can have faith in it. ONCE and after its framework has been fully accepted.
--------------------------
But let me post the reply to your # 785, which I had withheld, fearing it might be misconstrued. Yet the position is not as crazy as it might seem, and hopefully will be taken in light of similar opinions expressed by others, including many knowledgeable Muslims. So here goes:
--------------------------
PM, IMHO, you are on the right track. Communism is Islam for newborn babies, because even kids become quite rumbunctious and more inquisitive.
So just becuase Communism died everywhere except in the forever glowing hearts of Hindu secularists, it does not follow that Islam will die too. It's a "total system," less in a political sense (although it does aspire to be all-guiding), but more in the sense of claiming and holding the allegiance of individuals. Again, it does NOT matter WHY any and every Muslim offers that Islam that allegiance, only that he or she ultimately does.
Communism never got that far, and could never have, because its internal logic was so obviously flawed. It was based on an acdemic theory, not on a theory lived and honed over generations and generations of men living a particular kind of life.
It is actually a great system, even a generous and wonderful system, a progressive system, for those who can have faith in it. ONCE and after its framework has been fully accepted.
--------------------------
But let me post the reply to your # 785, which I had withheld, fearing it might be misconstrued. Yet the position is not as crazy as it might seem, and hopefully will be taken in light of similar opinions expressed by others, including many knowledgeable Muslims. So here goes:
--------------------------
PM, IMHO, you are on the right track. Communism is Islam for newborn babies, because even kids become quite rumbunctious and more inquisitive.
So just becuase Communism died everywhere except in the forever glowing hearts of Hindu secularists, it does not follow that Islam will die too. It's a "total system," less in a political sense (although it does aspire to be all-guiding), but more in the sense of claiming and holding the allegiance of individuals. Again, it does NOT matter WHY any and every Muslim offers that Islam that allegiance, only that he or she ultimately does.
Communism never got that far, and could never have, because its internal logic was so obviously flawed. It was based on an acdemic theory, not on a theory lived and honed over generations and generations of men living a particular kind of life.
#790 Posted by PM on July 16, 2007 3:44:19 pm
Also, on the global scale, or in the Middle East, you will see that the liberals do indeed do a little more than merely engage in cheap talk to keep the menacing talons of out-and-out fascism at bay.
#789 Posted by PM on July 16, 2007 3:42:17 pm
re. kaal:
"IMO, it's not liberals "fault," because that would be a value judgement. Just that they have nothing to work on, except their own cheap talk."
Funny, but I'd have sworn that the liberal Musharraf, backed by at least half the nation, went a little beyond cheap talk in taking on the custodians of islamic virtue.
"IMO, it's not liberals "fault," because that would be a value judgement. Just that they have nothing to work on, except their own cheap talk."
Funny, but I'd have sworn that the liberal Musharraf, backed by at least half the nation, went a little beyond cheap talk in taking on the custodians of islamic virtue.
#788 Posted by PM on July 16, 2007 3:34:51 pm
In response to PM, who wrote: "What makes Islam so different from the epitomological standpoint? What gives it the right to coerce through it's social "philosophy"?
philosopher responded:
Ideology doesn't give 'objective'(accpetable for all) justification for its 'right'to dominate other ideologies,
No, it doesn't. But you seemed to rationalizing Islam's right to kill apostates, on the grounds of the need to maintain its integrity. That sounds like an attempt to provide an objective justification. Correct me if wrong.
Also, please do define the word "apostate", esp. with reference to what I said about choice in 'accpeting' the faith in the first place. This is not mere armchair philosophy for me, mind you.
philosopher responded:
Ideology doesn't give 'objective'(accpetable for all) justification for its 'right'to dominate other ideologies,
No, it doesn't. But you seemed to rationalizing Islam's right to kill apostates, on the grounds of the need to maintain its integrity. That sounds like an attempt to provide an objective justification. Correct me if wrong.
Also, please do define the word "apostate", esp. with reference to what I said about choice in 'accpeting' the faith in the first place. This is not mere armchair philosophy for me, mind you.
#787 Posted by KaalChakra on July 16, 2007 3:31:39 pm
PM, in reference to state enforcing a law, let's come to the crux of the matter.
I can wager any reasonable amount that in the next ten years, make it fifteen or twenty, few countries with Muslims as majority population will actually enact (as very different from create even greater amounts of cheap talk) any such law, let alone enforce it.
To be able to generalize like that, PM, you have to grant, one has to be confident of one's position :)
IMO, it's not liberals "fault," because that would be a value judgement. Just that they have nothing to work on, except their own cheap talk. However, they CAN be liberal within the wider framework of Islam which Zee and Philo bhai have been, much to the chagrin of non-Muslims, quite accurately describing.
I can wager any reasonable amount that in the next ten years, make it fifteen or twenty, few countries with Muslims as majority population will actually enact (as very different from create even greater amounts of cheap talk) any such law, let alone enforce it.
To be able to generalize like that, PM, you have to grant, one has to be confident of one's position :)
IMO, it's not liberals "fault," because that would be a value judgement. Just that they have nothing to work on, except their own cheap talk. However, they CAN be liberal within the wider framework of Islam which Zee and Philo bhai have been, much to the chagrin of non-Muslims, quite accurately describing.
#786 Posted by PM on July 16, 2007 3:23:36 pm
correction:
"When the STATE enforces a law against calling for the death of apostate-killers, watch how, in due time, the FAITH, of the believers in the soundness of death-for-apostates also starts to diminish.
"When the STATE enforces a law against calling for the death of apostate-killers, watch how, in due time, the FAITH, of the believers in the soundness of death-for-apostates also starts to diminish.
#785 Posted by PM on July 16, 2007 3:21:16 pm
re. kaal:
"Other two are attributes of efficiency (straightest path to ojbectives) and durability across time and space."
Where is this efficiency exhibited? And how does dissent hamper this effeciency? Funny, but it's a axiom of social theory that what makes a society vibrant, strong and therefore efficient, is its diversity, and allowance for dissent. Unless you're talking of the kind of efficiency seen in Communist China. Maybe you, and Philo, are, actually.
If the Communists keep their ideological strangehold over the country -- as unlikely in the face of globalization as traditional, or Zee's Islam's hold over its adherents -- we may then add the third attribute added to Communist ideology as well. Don't a majority of N.Koreans still support their Great Leader??
"Other two are attributes of efficiency (straightest path to ojbectives) and durability across time and space."
Where is this efficiency exhibited? And how does dissent hamper this effeciency? Funny, but it's a axiom of social theory that what makes a society vibrant, strong and therefore efficient, is its diversity, and allowance for dissent. Unless you're talking of the kind of efficiency seen in Communist China. Maybe you, and Philo, are, actually.
If the Communists keep their ideological strangehold over the country -- as unlikely in the face of globalization as traditional, or Zee's Islam's hold over its adherents -- we may then add the third attribute added to Communist ideology as well. Don't a majority of N.Koreans still support their Great Leader??
#784 Posted by arjun2 on July 16, 2007 3:18:40 pm
#780 Posted by philosopher on July 16, 2007 3:01:20 pm
If you do it with 9 year old girls, like mo did it with aisha, there is a lot we can do about it..like calling the cops..
If you do it with 9 year old girls, like mo did it with aisha, there is a lot we can do about it..like calling the cops..
#783 Posted by philosopher on July 16, 2007 3:18:17 pm
#778 Posted by PM on July 16, 2007 2:55:45 pm
PM
(((What makes Islam so different from the epitomological standpoint? What gives it the right to coerce through it's social "philosophy"?))))
Ideology doesn't give 'objective'(accpetable for all) justification for its 'right'to dominate other ideologies, it makes its own standard of objectivity and that is what makes it ideology.(call it whatever you want..that is what it is.)
PM
((((Maybe some liberal are aware of it, and also aware that, while the social political Islam served a very important function in the past, it's redundant now. (Not irrelevant, but redundant-- it's function has been copted by the secular state.) Look around you, mian... you see Islamic states, in the socio-political sense, all over Europe))))
YES...iN SOME principle these systems are islamic and might have been influnced by Islam in some respects but its not a big deal...ideologies,philosophies and civilization do influence each other....but the real difference is the difference of perspective of these ideologies....islamic social theory(even its ethical theory) is not isolated and independent of its religio-spirtual basis. Secular systems are only concerned with the society they are not concerned with the perspective and the element of ''consciouness'' in following those moralities. In islam a follower in practicing moralities has a strong sense of accountability to God in view. His social being is ''consciously'' seeing those moralities in the light of God's knowledge not that these moralities itself are good or bad.
PM
(((What makes Islam so different from the epitomological standpoint? What gives it the right to coerce through it's social "philosophy"?))))
Ideology doesn't give 'objective'(accpetable for all) justification for its 'right'to dominate other ideologies, it makes its own standard of objectivity and that is what makes it ideology.(call it whatever you want..that is what it is.)
PM
((((Maybe some liberal are aware of it, and also aware that, while the social political Islam served a very important function in the past, it's redundant now. (Not irrelevant, but redundant-- it's function has been copted by the secular state.) Look around you, mian... you see Islamic states, in the socio-political sense, all over Europe))))
YES...iN SOME principle these systems are islamic and might have been influnced by Islam in some respects but its not a big deal...ideologies,philosophies and civilization do influence each other....but the real difference is the difference of perspective of these ideologies....islamic social theory(even its ethical theory) is not isolated and independent of its religio-spirtual basis. Secular systems are only concerned with the society they are not concerned with the perspective and the element of ''consciouness'' in following those moralities. In islam a follower in practicing moralities has a strong sense of accountability to God in view. His social being is ''consciously'' seeing those moralities in the light of God's knowledge not that these moralities itself are good or bad.
#782 Posted by PM on July 16, 2007 3:08:05 pm
re. kaal:
"People can believe or say anything. Beliefs and words matter ONLY if they can be enforced. By state for most non-Muslims, and by faith, for most Muslims."
When the STATE enforces a law against calling for the death of apostates, watch how, in due time, the FAITH, of the believers in the soundness of such punishment also starts to diminish. Faith didn't motivate the faithful to kill blasphemers quite as much as it started to in '85, before which the consequences were rather dire.
You point on talk being cheap is, of course, taken.
"People can believe or say anything. Beliefs and words matter ONLY if they can be enforced. By state for most non-Muslims, and by faith, for most Muslims."
When the STATE enforces a law against calling for the death of apostates, watch how, in due time, the FAITH, of the believers in the soundness of such punishment also starts to diminish. Faith didn't motivate the faithful to kill blasphemers quite as much as it started to in '85, before which the consequences were rather dire.
You point on talk being cheap is, of course, taken.
#781 Posted by KaalChakra on July 16, 2007 3:04:44 pm
"You're suggesting that the more all-encompassing a system is, the more vulnerable it becomes to dissent of any kinds."
"That makes it potentially totalitarian."
Unless someone has strong objections, I do think that is exactly correct. Orwellian or not, that is one's personal preference.
Would only add that being all-encompassing is only one the three important attributes. Other two are attributes of efficiency (straightest path to ojbectives) and durability across time and space.
To achieve all three together, one cannot play with little pieces here and there, merely to suit temporary needs, (except in a clear sense of "strategic retreat)."
--------------
There is a great deal of freedom within. Just not the kind that risks the structure as a whole. There will always be some poeple who are unwilling to countenance too many risks, by themselves, and if the system is important, by others as well.
------------
What's the justification?
None, unless one first has faith in the basics.
"That makes it potentially totalitarian."
Unless someone has strong objections, I do think that is exactly correct. Orwellian or not, that is one's personal preference.
Would only add that being all-encompassing is only one the three important attributes. Other two are attributes of efficiency (straightest path to ojbectives) and durability across time and space.
To achieve all three together, one cannot play with little pieces here and there, merely to suit temporary needs, (except in a clear sense of "strategic retreat)."
--------------
There is a great deal of freedom within. Just not the kind that risks the structure as a whole. There will always be some poeple who are unwilling to countenance too many risks, by themselves, and if the system is important, by others as well.
------------
What's the justification?
None, unless one first has faith in the basics.
#780 Posted by philosopher on July 16, 2007 3:01:20 pm
#777 Posted by arjun2 on July 16, 2007 2:49:40 pm
((((This is america. here people are free to renounce islam and there's nothing you can do about it..let me repeat...nothing you can do about it.. )))
who has asked you not to drink gao-muttar and her goaber-burger??? man...you are right...off course i know...i can do nothing about it....let me repeat....nothing i can do about it.
((((This is america. here people are free to renounce islam and there's nothing you can do about it..let me repeat...nothing you can do about it.. )))
who has asked you not to drink gao-muttar and her goaber-burger??? man...you are right...off course i know...i can do nothing about it....let me repeat....nothing i can do about it.
#779 Posted by philosopher on July 16, 2007 2:56:15 pm
Re:#771 Posted by PM on July 16, 2007 2:35:06 pm
((((I'm not sure what you mean by 'flexible' here. Are you referring to the elasticity of the noose rope? Or to the pliability of the sword used to behead the apostate? Or perhaps to the choice of whether the IV-arsenics hould be administered into the arm ot hip?? Please do elaborate on this "flexibility" wrt to capital punishment, and also on the "nature of the act" of apostasy))))
my response..;
I have said that apostasy will be dealt within a general law for ''mischief in the land'' because there is no punishment has been mentioned for apostasy separatly in the Quran.
punishment for ''mischief in land'' is mentioned...;
5:33 The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;
so you see....death penality is the maximum punishment in that case.....there may be lesser punishments as well.
i have categorically mentioned in my previous post that in the case of apostasy death penality is NOT the minimum punishment.
the ''nature'' of apostasy means that if a person doesn't fight against the state and doesnt preach his new religion he might be given a chance....or any other punishment less than death....untill he repents....blah..blah
((((I'm not sure what you mean by 'flexible' here. Are you referring to the elasticity of the noose rope? Or to the pliability of the sword used to behead the apostate? Or perhaps to the choice of whether the IV-arsenics hould be administered into the arm ot hip?? Please do elaborate on this "flexibility" wrt to capital punishment, and also on the "nature of the act" of apostasy))))
my response..;
I have said that apostasy will be dealt within a general law for ''mischief in the land'' because there is no punishment has been mentioned for apostasy separatly in the Quran.
punishment for ''mischief in land'' is mentioned...;
5:33 The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;
so you see....death penality is the maximum punishment in that case.....there may be lesser punishments as well.
i have categorically mentioned in my previous post that in the case of apostasy death penality is NOT the minimum punishment.
the ''nature'' of apostasy means that if a person doesn't fight against the state and doesnt preach his new religion he might be given a chance....or any other punishment less than death....untill he repents....blah..blah
#778 Posted by PM on July 16, 2007 2:55:45 pm
Liberal Muslims who want to reform Islam on moral basis are missing a damn big pint and that is...that, had there not been this kind of social political Islam, it would have been impossible for the ''religio-spirtual'' islam to survive.
Maybe some liberal are aware of it, and also aware that, while the social political Islam served a very important function in the past, it's redundant now. (Not irrelevant, but redundant-- it's function has been copted by the secular state.) Look around you, mian... you see Islamic states, in the socio-political sense, all over Europe.
In fact, islam's social philosophy provides an institutional 'defence' mechanisms to its "religio-spirtual" philosophy against all other ideologies which would hinder its progress or assert their own epitemological perspective on it. "
Mian, other ideologies are not necessarily inimical to Islam. There are overlaps in the epitemological perspectives (whatever those are) of almost all ideologies. What makes Islam so different from the epitomological standpoint? What gives it the right to coerce through it's social "philosophy"?
"...so in that way islam's social theory is kind of a "socialization of knowledge" as well."
Which makes it potentially totalitarian? So?? To a greater or lesser degree, all ideologies "socialize knowledge". Where is the jsutification here for the protection of this knowledge at all costs? Where is the justification for facism?
Maybe some liberal are aware of it, and also aware that, while the social political Islam served a very important function in the past, it's redundant now. (Not irrelevant, but redundant-- it's function has been copted by the secular state.) Look around you, mian... you see Islamic states, in the socio-political sense, all over Europe.
In fact, islam's social philosophy provides an institutional 'defence' mechanisms to its "religio-spirtual" philosophy against all other ideologies which would hinder its progress or assert their own epitemological perspective on it. "
Mian, other ideologies are not necessarily inimical to Islam. There are overlaps in the epitemological perspectives (whatever those are) of almost all ideologies. What makes Islam so different from the epitomological standpoint? What gives it the right to coerce through it's social "philosophy"?
"...so in that way islam's social theory is kind of a "socialization of knowledge" as well."
Which makes it potentially totalitarian? So?? To a greater or lesser degree, all ideologies "socialize knowledge". Where is the jsutification here for the protection of this knowledge at all costs? Where is the justification for facism?
#777 Posted by arjun2 on July 16, 2007 2:49:40 pm
#769 Posted by philosopher on July 16, 2007 2:13:00 pm
According to islam no non-muslim can be forced to convert to islam.but a muslim cannot change his religion and if he does the maximum punuishment is death.
That may be true in lands where the practioners of the religion of peace are in the majority.
This is america. here people are free to renounce islam and there's nothing you can do about it..let me repeat...nothing you can do about it..
According to islam no non-muslim can be forced to convert to islam.but a muslim cannot change his religion and if he does the maximum punuishment is death.
That may be true in lands where the practioners of the religion of peace are in the majority.
This is america. here people are free to renounce islam and there's nothing you can do about it..let me repeat...nothing you can do about it..
#776 Posted by KaalChakra on July 16, 2007 2:47:18 pm
LOL, GT sahib, we will need your creativity to find fun in this new and still confusing format. Cheers.
#775 Posted by GT on July 16, 2007 2:47:03 pm
Re: # 774
This is what happens when I reply to an interact. How would I know of interacts (by others) to an old interact?
Whew!
This is what happens when I reply to an interact. How would I know of interacts (by others) to an old interact?
Whew!
#774 Posted by GT on July 16, 2007 2:42:18 pm
I clicked on 'flag objectionable content' in #s 771 and 770 .. a red flag appeared on both posts. Now is this solely for my benifit or does everyone in chowk get to see them (If so then PM and kaal, I am sorry).
But this is fun :)
But this is fun :)
#773 Posted by PM on July 16, 2007 2:41:14 pm
Okay, egg's on my face a little...
To be fair, Philoo, you did write "But a muslim cannot change his religion and if he does the maximum punuishment is death." [emphasis added, and vital.
Could you tell us the source of this allegedly Islamic law? Is the "maximum" part your addition or is it inferred from the source?
In case you can provide your source, showing the possibility of flexibility, I offer an apology for the name-calling in the previous post. If not, it stands.
To be fair, Philoo, you did write "But a muslim cannot change his religion and if he does the maximum punuishment is death." [emphasis added, and vital.
Could you tell us the source of this allegedly Islamic law? Is the "maximum" part your addition or is it inferred from the source?
In case you can provide your source, showing the possibility of flexibility, I offer an apology for the name-calling in the previous post. If not, it stands.
#772 Posted by philosopher on July 16, 2007 2:39:16 pm
Liberal Muslims who want to reform Islam on moral basis are missing a damn big pint and that is...that, had there not been this kind of social political Islam, it would have been impossible for the ''religio-spirtual'' islam to survive.
In fact, islam's social philosophy provides an institutional 'defence' mechanisms to its ''religio-spirtual'' philosophy against all other ideologies which would hinder its progress or assert their own epitemological perspective on it. so in that way islam's social theory is kind of a ''socialization of knowledge'' as well.
People like Masadi forget that had there not been Mullah's resistence against colonialism he(masadi) would not have been a muslim because there would have been no such thing as islam in the world. For ''moderate'' view and version you need at least two theories to reconcile islam and westren liberalism...if islam had behaved moderatly or 'liberally' during the colonial period ....there would not have been one theory and no prize for guessing,which one.
In fact, islam's social philosophy provides an institutional 'defence' mechanisms to its ''religio-spirtual'' philosophy against all other ideologies which would hinder its progress or assert their own epitemological perspective on it. so in that way islam's social theory is kind of a ''socialization of knowledge'' as well.
People like Masadi forget that had there not been Mullah's resistence against colonialism he(masadi) would not have been a muslim because there would have been no such thing as islam in the world. For ''moderate'' view and version you need at least two theories to reconcile islam and westren liberalism...if islam had behaved moderatly or 'liberally' during the colonial period ....there would not have been one theory and no prize for guessing,which one.
#771 Posted by PM on July 16, 2007 2:35:06 pm
re. philosopher #769:
"So in that kind of system if you let go apostate and 'deviant' so easily it will be recepie for disaster,it will minimize its utility as a socio-political system."
So, just to be sure, you're suggesting that the more all-encompassing a system is, the more vulnerable it becomes to dissent of any kinds? hmmm.. Orwell's villains would agree, I think!
Incidentally, and slightly peripherally, no one but Zeemax has been brave enough to answer this question: Can a person be considered to have chosen a faith when s/he clearly had no choice, being born into a family of that faith? In other words, is there no difference between apostasy of the time of the Prophet (when a person was a Muslim indubitably by choice) and all Muslims-by-accident-of-birth?
You write: "According to islam no non-muslim can be forced to convert to islam. But a muslim cannot change his religion and if he does the maximum punuishment is death."
and also,
"Now you can be flexible in implementing this punishment for apostasy according to the nature and consequences of that act."
I'm not sure what you mean by 'flexible' here. Are you referring to the elasticity of the noose rope? Or to the pliability of the sword used to behead the apostate? Or perhaps to the choice of whether the IV-arsenics hould be administered into the arm ot hip?? Please do elaborate on this "flexibility" wrt to capital punishment, and also on the "nature of the act" of apostasy.
And, just so echo sahib never again get the impression I'm pusillaminous, please allow me to say that I think you're one sick ba$tard who needs to see a psychiatrist. But please, this is just my detached opinion based on your clearly schizoidic temperament. Nothing personal.
"So in that kind of system if you let go apostate and 'deviant' so easily it will be recepie for disaster,it will minimize its utility as a socio-political system."
So, just to be sure, you're suggesting that the more all-encompassing a system is, the more vulnerable it becomes to dissent of any kinds? hmmm.. Orwell's villains would agree, I think!
Incidentally, and slightly peripherally, no one but Zeemax has been brave enough to answer this question: Can a person be considered to have chosen a faith when s/he clearly had no choice, being born into a family of that faith? In other words, is there no difference between apostasy of the time of the Prophet (when a person was a Muslim indubitably by choice) and all Muslims-by-accident-of-birth?
You write: "According to islam no non-muslim can be forced to convert to islam. But a muslim cannot change his religion and if he does the maximum punuishment is death."
and also,
"Now you can be flexible in implementing this punishment for apostasy according to the nature and consequences of that act."
I'm not sure what you mean by 'flexible' here. Are you referring to the elasticity of the noose rope? Or to the pliability of the sword used to behead the apostate? Or perhaps to the choice of whether the IV-arsenics hould be administered into the arm ot hip?? Please do elaborate on this "flexibility" wrt to capital punishment, and also on the "nature of the act" of apostasy.
And, just so echo sahib never again get the impression I'm pusillaminous, please allow me to say that I think you're one sick ba$tard who needs to see a psychiatrist. But please, this is just my detached opinion based on your clearly schizoidic temperament. Nothing personal.
#770 Posted by KaalChakra on July 16, 2007 2:19:52 pm
Yes, PM, agreed, to the apostate, liberal opinions would matter IF liberal opinions had practical and "institutionalized" value and force. People can believe or say anything. Beliefs and words matter ONLY if they can be enforced. By state for most non-Muslims, and by faith, for most Muslims.
To quote an hackneyed example, sure, anyone can scream fire in a crowded auditorium (no society can stop ALL its people, ALL the time, from following their own inner light). Yet, IF there exist such strong institutional mechanisms that such an act will undoubtedly draw universal (not just liberal) strong condemnation and will surely land a person in huge trouble within one's own valued group/nation, then those opinions become actually worth something.
Basically, PM, talk is cheap; and while it is good to humor it among kids, and let friends indulge in it if they so desire, even encourage it if cheap talk is pleasing to one's ears and builds one's self confidence and brings hope for a better future, but it is unwise to imagine that, unless backed by frankly brutal and open powerplay, it actually means or can mean something socially.
To quote an hackneyed example, sure, anyone can scream fire in a crowded auditorium (no society can stop ALL its people, ALL the time, from following their own inner light). Yet, IF there exist such strong institutional mechanisms that such an act will undoubtedly draw universal (not just liberal) strong condemnation and will surely land a person in huge trouble within one's own valued group/nation, then those opinions become actually worth something.
Basically, PM, talk is cheap; and while it is good to humor it among kids, and let friends indulge in it if they so desire, even encourage it if cheap talk is pleasing to one's ears and builds one's self confidence and brings hope for a better future, but it is unwise to imagine that, unless backed by frankly brutal and open powerplay, it actually means or can mean something socially.
#769 Posted by philosopher on July 16, 2007 2:13:00 pm
Re:#762 Posted by PM on July 16, 2007 1:31:33 pm
((((Could you start by explaining, briefly, what the term "all-inclusive system" means here, and how it is threatened by apostasy))))
well PM...its simple...Regardless of the diversity of islam's version no body can deny that islam has its own comprehensive socio-political system. All-inclusive here means that it encompasses all the dimension of human life. It has its, jurisprudence, political, social ,legal and ethical system along with ,off course, its spirtual and epistemological philosophy(which provides the basis to its social dimension).
So in that kind of system if you let go apostate and 'deviant' so easily it will be recepie for disaster,it will minimize its utility as a socio-political system.
The kind of Islam tahmed32 and Masadi preach is good and jutified(intellectualy) in many ways but by doing so they throw the baby out with the bath water.
Masadi misses a point here when he says 'God will deal with them' off course he will but what is jurisprudence there for?? off course the matter related to the socail conditions and human beings are dealt by human beings according to the teachings of their ideology.
Now you can be flexiable inn implementing this punishment for apostasy according the nature and consequences of that act.
PM said..;
(((Are you suggesting that all Bahai's, to take an example, should be put to death for preaching in Islamic lands? What about preaching faiths that predate Islam but are newer in terms of when they reach a land-- Christianity being preached in the Punjab, for instance)))
No...those sects which have already been decleared infedils can not be treated that way...we are taliking aboutb the future.in future(if it is implemented) no muslim can be allowed to convert to other faiths. According to islam no non-muslim can be forced to convert to islam.but a muslim cannot change his religion and if he does the maximum punuishment is death.
((((Could you start by explaining, briefly, what the term "all-inclusive system" means here, and how it is threatened by apostasy))))
well PM...its simple...Regardless of the diversity of islam's version no body can deny that islam has its own comprehensive socio-political system. All-inclusive here means that it encompasses all the dimension of human life. It has its, jurisprudence, political, social ,legal and ethical system along with ,off course, its spirtual and epistemological philosophy(which provides the basis to its social dimension).
So in that kind of system if you let go apostate and 'deviant' so easily it will be recepie for disaster,it will minimize its utility as a socio-political system.
The kind of Islam tahmed32 and Masadi preach is good and jutified(intellectualy) in many ways but by doing so they throw the baby out with the bath water.
Masadi misses a point here when he says 'God will deal with them' off course he will but what is jurisprudence there for?? off course the matter related to the socail conditions and human beings are dealt by human beings according to the teachings of their ideology.
Now you can be flexiable inn implementing this punishment for apostasy according the nature and consequences of that act.
PM said..;
(((Are you suggesting that all Bahai's, to take an example, should be put to death for preaching in Islamic lands? What about preaching faiths that predate Islam but are newer in terms of when they reach a land-- Christianity being preached in the Punjab, for instance)))
No...those sects which have already been decleared infedils can not be treated that way...we are taliking aboutb the future.in future(if it is implemented) no muslim can be allowed to convert to other faiths. According to islam no non-muslim can be forced to convert to islam.but a muslim cannot change his religion and if he does the maximum punuishment is death.
#768 Posted by PM on July 16, 2007 2:04:07 pm
Now this is the kind of sure-footed thing ...Eemaani..believing...stuff I admire in any man.
echo sahib, there are some things worthy of emaani and some not. I would be a fool to have such aetmaad about rain tomorrow based simply on the fact that it's getting pretty cloudy and humid as hell.
OTOH, I am SURE that oftentimes, doubt is the most approriate way to relate to a situation... it keeps one hungry for the truth.
echo sahib, there are some things worthy of emaani and some not. I would be a fool to have such aetmaad about rain tomorrow based simply on the fact that it's getting pretty cloudy and humid as hell.
OTOH, I am SURE that oftentimes, doubt is the most approriate way to relate to a situation... it keeps one hungry for the truth.
#767 Posted by PM on July 16, 2007 1:58:26 pm
I am quitting chowk until this asinine manner of presenting the interacts is corrected. God knows I don't need to wait 2 minutes for a page to reload and show, 99% of which I've already read!!
Am sending a copy to to chowk editors. Maybe we could put some collective pressure on 'em??
Am sending a copy to to chowk editors. Maybe we could put some collective pressure on 'em??
#766 Posted by PM on July 16, 2007 1:52:54 pm
has anyone figured out a way to limit the number of posts per page?? This is killing me here with my slow, and not so cheap connection!!
#765 Posted by PM on July 16, 2007 1:51:16 pm
re. kaal #762:
" You don't want to kill them, but what would you suggest be done to them? Would you not want ANY Muslims to talk about killing such a person?"
No-- if you mean 'not want' in a legally consequential way. There is a great difference between a beggar on the street saying "X should die" and Altaf Hussain, for instance, saying the same. Most legal systems recognize this difference.
" Other Muslims can be as 'liberal' as they wish to or need to, so long as they DO NOT OR CANNOT (the two being EXACTLY the same, from outcome perspective) effectively stop the few Muslims who are [intent on kiling apostates]".
I don't agree with the two being exactly the same. Public opinion and sentiment does, in fact, affect actions/outcomes. And public opinion/sentiment is nothing but the collection of many individuals' opinions/sentiments. So it does matter that liberals, and anyone else for that matter, not be 'satisfied' with simply holding an opinion about treatment of others, but turn it into a practical force as well.
" You don't want to kill them, but what would you suggest be done to them? Would you not want ANY Muslims to talk about killing such a person?"
No-- if you mean 'not want' in a legally consequential way. There is a great difference between a beggar on the street saying "X should die" and Altaf Hussain, for instance, saying the same. Most legal systems recognize this difference.
" Other Muslims can be as 'liberal' as they wish to or need to, so long as they DO NOT OR CANNOT (the two being EXACTLY the same, from outcome perspective) effectively stop the few Muslims who are [intent on kiling apostates]".
I don't agree with the two being exactly the same. Public opinion and sentiment does, in fact, affect actions/outcomes. And public opinion/sentiment is nothing but the collection of many individuals' opinions/sentiments. So it does matter that liberals, and anyone else for that matter, not be 'satisfied' with simply holding an opinion about treatment of others, but turn it into a practical force as well.
#764 Posted by echoboom on July 16, 2007 1:44:34 pm
PM:758
"My mention of the 21st century was not to hold it out as necessarily more advanced than the 7th (though I absolutely believe it is in almost every respect)"
Now this is the kind of sure-footed thing ...Eemaani..believing...stuff I admire in any man.
Belonging to exactly this glorious Islamic tradition I also think that one should try not to get specious like a godforsaken logician or the Israelites-of-the-bible who clinton like insisted on the definition of "is" to avoid discomfort or always "win" an argument.
So it would do a great good to you to read upon the constituitions of The Islamic republic of Iran ( the one closest to an Islamic society today...in my BELIEF..so don't ask me why..I won't answer...that is the islamic way to end an argument)
"My mention of the 21st century was not to hold it out as necessarily more advanced than the 7th (though I absolutely believe it is in almost every respect)"
Now this is the kind of sure-footed thing ...Eemaani..believing...stuff I admire in any man.
Belonging to exactly this glorious Islamic tradition I also think that one should try not to get specious like a godforsaken logician or the Israelites-of-the-bible who clinton like insisted on the definition of "is" to avoid discomfort or always "win" an argument.
So it would do a great good to you to read upon the constituitions of The Islamic republic of Iran ( the one closest to an Islamic society today...in my BELIEF..so don't ask me why..I won't answer...that is the islamic way to end an argument)
#763 Posted by PM on July 16, 2007 1:38:20 pm
re. Echoboom #760 "Even muslims & Islam are under the gun, is not the time & place to seek such esoteric & fanciful opinion of the one crouching in dust, bleeding, and begging.... The most he can do, if he has some strength left in him, is to spit in our face. "
Surely you don't honestly beleive it is always, or even most often, a case of the crouching, bleeding ones, who tend to be the spitters? I certainly don't.
Surely you don't honestly beleive it is always, or even most often, a case of the crouching, bleeding ones, who tend to be the spitters? I certainly don't.
#762 Posted by PM on July 16, 2007 1:31:33 pm
Philosopher:
Could you please elaborate on this:
"And i was convinced by echo/zee and even you that letting the apostate go is terrible to the kind of all-inclusive system islam carries..."
Could you start by explaining, briefly, what the term "all-inclusive system" means here, and how it is threatened by apostasy.
Could you also please elaborate on : "for example...how would you treat people who would openly start preaching their new faith...do they deserve any thing less than death????...if this is not ''fasaad fil aaraz'' mischief in the land(spreading apostasy)than whatelse is????"
Are you suggesting that all Bahai's, to take an example, should be put to death for preaching in Islamic lands? What about preaching faiths that predate Islam but are newer in terms of when they reach a land-- Christianity being preached in the Punjab, for instance?
Looking forward to your repsonse.
Could you please elaborate on this:
"And i was convinced by echo/zee and even you that letting the apostate go is terrible to the kind of all-inclusive system islam carries..."
Could you start by explaining, briefly, what the term "all-inclusive system" means here, and how it is threatened by apostasy.
Could you also please elaborate on : "for example...how would you treat people who would openly start preaching their new faith...do they deserve any thing less than death????...if this is not ''fasaad fil aaraz'' mischief in the land(spreading apostasy)than whatelse is????"
Are you suggesting that all Bahai's, to take an example, should be put to death for preaching in Islamic lands? What about preaching faiths that predate Islam but are newer in terms of when they reach a land-- Christianity being preached in the Punjab, for instance?
Looking forward to your repsonse.
#761 Posted by GT on July 16, 2007 1:30:35 pm
Wow!
Few questions:
1. What happened to the right hand side?
2. Is there a way to arrange the interacts in an increasing or decreasing order?
3. Is echo really out of the can this time?
Few observations:
1. It is difficult to respond to earliers posts. Need to scroll a lot.
2. It will take some time to get used to it.
Few questions:
1. What happened to the right hand side?
2. Is there a way to arrange the interacts in an increasing or decreasing order?
3. Is echo really out of the can this time?
Few observations:
1. It is difficult to respond to earliers posts. Need to scroll a lot.
2. It will take some time to get used to it.
#760 Posted by KaalChakra on July 16, 2007 1:29:17 pm
Philo bhai # 748
And I fully agree with you. For the life of me, I cannot understand Hindus and Hindus with Muslim names who insist on seeing Islam as a man-made religion, just like Hinduism.
Intellectually, may be I do understand them because not long ago, I too believed that Islam was a form of Hinduism, just Arabic bhakti and devotion being the core of it. You see, sufis did mess up Hindu minds pretty thoroughly, which frankly, from Islam's point of view, was not and is not a bad thing (if Sufism knew and respected its limits). :)
----------------------------
Masadi sahib, PM
In your interpretation, what should Muslims do with apostates who work directly and diligently to "destroy" Islam by:
(1) Denouncing the Quran and its message, claiming it cannot be the Word of God. Worse, call it a source of great evil in the world.
(2) Speaking out strongly, and by their own criteria, logically, against Prophet Muhammad (and his family) as a role model for mankind, highlighting his 'flaws.' Worse, brining them in clear disrepute.
(3) Luring young Muslim women to marry men who are not of the book.
(4) Organizing to stop/slow the spread of Islam in non-Muslim countries.
(5) Encouraging poor/ignorant Muslims to abandon Islam, and then financially/politically supporting such apostates.
You don't want to kill them, but what would you suggest be done to them? Would you not want ANY Muslims to talk about killing such a person?
---------------------------------------
If that satisfies you, given a large enough group, not every Muslim has to call for murders, nor carry them out. So Muslims who wish to be liberals need not be alarmed.
All that's needed are (1) numbers - those are THE all-important factor, and (2) some Muslims (a very very small percentage, indeed) realizing their duty to stop the spread of vice. (3) Other Muslims can be as 'liberal' as they wish to or need to, so long as they DO NOT OR CANNOT (the two being EXACTLY the same, from outcome perspective) effectively stop the few Muslims who are, by their own interpretations - and who should they turn to for guidance but themselves and the Quran?, driven to perform what they see as their duty to God and Islam.
------------
So what should Muslims do with such apostates, according to your view?
And I fully agree with you. For the life of me, I cannot understand Hindus and Hindus with Muslim names who insist on seeing Islam as a man-made religion, just like Hinduism.
Intellectually, may be I do understand them because not long ago, I too believed that Islam was a form of Hinduism, just Arabic bhakti and devotion being the core of it. You see, sufis did mess up Hindu minds pretty thoroughly, which frankly, from Islam's point of view, was not and is not a bad thing (if Sufism knew and respected its limits). :)
----------------------------
Masadi sahib, PM
In your interpretation, what should Muslims do with apostates who work directly and diligently to "destroy" Islam by:
(1) Denouncing the Quran and its message, claiming it cannot be the Word of God. Worse, call it a source of great evil in the world.
(2) Speaking out strongly, and by their own criteria, logically, against Prophet Muhammad (and his family) as a role model for mankind, highlighting his 'flaws.' Worse, brining them in clear disrepute.
(3) Luring young Muslim women to marry men who are not of the book.
(4) Organizing to stop/slow the spread of Islam in non-Muslim countries.
(5) Encouraging poor/ignorant Muslims to abandon Islam, and then financially/politically supporting such apostates.
You don't want to kill them, but what would you suggest be done to them? Would you not want ANY Muslims to talk about killing such a person?
---------------------------------------
If that satisfies you, given a large enough group, not every Muslim has to call for murders, nor carry them out. So Muslims who wish to be liberals need not be alarmed.
All that's needed are (1) numbers - those are THE all-important factor, and (2) some Muslims (a very very small percentage, indeed) realizing their duty to stop the spread of vice. (3) Other Muslims can be as 'liberal' as they wish to or need to, so long as they DO NOT OR CANNOT (the two being EXACTLY the same, from outcome perspective) effectively stop the few Muslims who are, by their own interpretations - and who should they turn to for guidance but themselves and the Quran?, driven to perform what they see as their duty to God and Islam.
------------
So what should Muslims do with such apostates, according to your view?
#759 Posted by echoboom on July 16, 2007 1:26:49 pm
PM:757
It is the question of "agency"...as our resident Profeesor emeritus of literature would say.
Defining the other's hurt or happiness has become an industry in your 21st century..and like the mice we are all following this pied piper Bro P.M.
The world problems & issues are not Islamic Islamic. Every time, since colonialism got its grip on the world...the first stone cast is always from the other side. So much so that it has made many muslims & non-muslims confederate-in-arms.
Even muslims & Islam are under the gun, is not the time & place to seek such esoteric & fanciful opinion of the one crouching in dust, bleeding, and begging.
The most he can do, if he has some strength left in him, is to spit in our face.
It is the question of "agency"...as our resident Profeesor emeritus of literature would say.
Defining the other's hurt or happiness has become an industry in your 21st century..and like the mice we are all following this pied piper Bro P.M.
The world problems & issues are not Islamic Islamic. Every time, since colonialism got its grip on the world...the first stone cast is always from the other side. So much so that it has made many muslims & non-muslims confederate-in-arms.
Even muslims & Islam are under the gun, is not the time & place to seek such esoteric & fanciful opinion of the one crouching in dust, bleeding, and begging.
The most he can do, if he has some strength left in him, is to spit in our face.
#758 Posted by PM on July 16, 2007 1:22:25 pm
echo, #756:
My mention of the 21st century was not to hold it out as necessarily more advanced than the 7th (though I absolutely believe it is in almost every respect). No, point was that the conditions that existed in the 7th which made apostasy "harmful to the community" don't in the 21st. The Ummah has come some ways since then.
re. the rest of your post, please use fewer metaphors and idioms. Not all of us are as literarily gifted as yourself.
My mention of the 21st century was not to hold it out as necessarily more advanced than the 7th (though I absolutely believe it is in almost every respect). No, point was that the conditions that existed in the 7th which made apostasy "harmful to the community" don't in the 21st. The Ummah has come some ways since then.
re. the rest of your post, please use fewer metaphors and idioms. Not all of us are as literarily gifted as yourself.
#757 Posted by PM on July 16, 2007 1:16:15 pm
re. echoboom: "One "writer" used words...the one who expressed opinion that such a person be killed also used words. Did something happen?"
Not quite sure what you mean by that question. Something could likely happen. In any case, there's a clear difference between words what directly call for (and can very likely thus lead to) killing of someone, and words that, at the most, can annoy/upset/enrage. Yes, some sanction is probably needn't against the latter, but not seeing it's essential difference between it and the former is, IMHO, an exercise in self-deception.
Not quite sure what you mean by that question. Something could likely happen. In any case, there's a clear difference between words what directly call for (and can very likely thus lead to) killing of someone, and words that, at the most, can annoy/upset/enrage. Yes, some sanction is probably needn't against the latter, but not seeing it's essential difference between it and the former is, IMHO, an exercise in self-deception.
#756 Posted by echoboom on July 16, 2007 1:15:03 pm
PM:752
Nothing glamorous or ugly about the 21st century...perhaps this self-congratulatory pat on the back is the root of most evil. :)
This exactly is the reason that the granddad & grandson consider each other beneath themselves..the tragic part is that the granddad & fewer miles left to make his point.
The opted-in business in life is the one "that goes with the territory"..remember , no one sought our opinion about paying a visit here in the first place..and you want to quibble about details...like height, weight, color & worst of all lineage?
Of course scince is trying to act uppity & shifting forever the paradigms...but no matter what happens or whatever they do they will never be able to step in the same river twice!
Nothing glamorous or ugly about the 21st century...perhaps this self-congratulatory pat on the back is the root of most evil. :)
This exactly is the reason that the granddad & grandson consider each other beneath themselves..the tragic part is that the granddad & fewer miles left to make his point.
The opted-in business in life is the one "that goes with the territory"..remember , no one sought our opinion about paying a visit here in the first place..and you want to quibble about details...like height, weight, color & worst of all lineage?
Of course scince is trying to act uppity & shifting forever the paradigms...but no matter what happens or whatever they do they will never be able to step in the same river twice!
#755 Posted by PM on July 16, 2007 1:09:26 pm
re. masadi #various:
Man, you know what I think about your philosophising. (!!)
I guess it's only fair you know what I think about "your" Islam: It rocks!!
And no, there's not a hint of sacarsm or irony there! More power to you, man!
And whilst you're at it, keep exposing the shallowness (where found) of the "Islam" promoted by the likes of Zeemax and Urstruly. (I think Zee's probably hit an age where he's in need of some vicarious action, and gets it from his modern-day cowboys and Injuns re-tellings. Other than that, he's pretty cool, actually.)
Man, you know what I think about your philosophising. (!!)
I guess it's only fair you know what I think about "your" Islam: It rocks!!
And no, there's not a hint of sacarsm or irony there! More power to you, man!
And whilst you're at it, keep exposing the shallowness (where found) of the "Islam" promoted by the likes of Zeemax and Urstruly. (I think Zee's probably hit an age where he's in need of some vicarious action, and gets it from his modern-day cowboys and Injuns re-tellings. Other than that, he's pretty cool, actually.)
#754 Posted by philosopher on July 16, 2007 1:06:06 pm
#753 Posted by philosopher on
please read((((i convinced...though i think state can ''categorise' in the forms of apostasy according to the nature and its consequences on the society)))
AS;
i was convinced...though i think state can ''categorise' the forms of apostasy according to its nature and consequences on the society.
please read((((i convinced...though i think state can ''categorise' in the forms of apostasy according to the nature and its consequences on the society)))
AS;
i was convinced...though i think state can ''categorise' the forms of apostasy according to its nature and consequences on the society.
#753 Posted by philosopher on July 16, 2007 1:02:45 pm
#748 Posted by KaalChakra on July 16, 2007 12:36:13 pm
kaal ji
you know i have repeated it infinite number of times now that all these differences are the product of the fallacy of the ethical interpretation of the religion.
Religion does have moral philosophy but reducing and analysing religion(especially islam) only in the light of moralities is nothing but a complete lack of understanding of the epitemological dimension of the religion.
I know there is no categorical verse in the Quran regarding the death penality of apostate. but there is a which says that people who create mischief in the land can be excuted though it is the maximum punishement prescribed for ''oon' but it is there.And i was convinced by echo/zee and even you that letting the apostate go is terribl to the kind of all-inclusive system islam carries.
i convinced...though i think state can ''categorise' in the forms of apostasy according to the nature and its consequences on the society.
You might not kill every apostate but certain kind of apostates must be given what they truly deserve,though it must be in the framework of law.
for example...how would you treat people who would openly start preaching their new faith...do they deserve any thing less than death????
if this is not ''fasaad fil aaraz'' mischief in the land(spreading apostasy)than whatelse is????
kaal ji
you know i have repeated it infinite number of times now that all these differences are the product of the fallacy of the ethical interpretation of the religion.
Religion does have moral philosophy but reducing and analysing religion(especially islam) only in the light of moralities is nothing but a complete lack of understanding of the epitemological dimension of the religion.
I know there is no categorical verse in the Quran regarding the death penality of apostate. but there is a which says that people who create mischief in the land can be excuted though it is the maximum punishement prescribed for ''oon' but it is there.And i was convinced by echo/zee and even you that letting the apostate go is terribl to the kind of all-inclusive system islam carries.
i convinced...though i think state can ''categorise' in the forms of apostasy according to the nature and its consequences on the society.
You might not kill every apostate but certain kind of apostates must be given what they truly deserve,though it must be in the framework of law.
for example...how would you treat people who would openly start preaching their new faith...do they deserve any thing less than death????
if this is not ''fasaad fil aaraz'' mischief in the land(spreading apostasy)than whatelse is????
#752 Posted by PM on July 16, 2007 12:59:54 pm
re. echoboom:
"Would not a "muslim" who decides NOT to remain a believer ( not just in heart..of which no one would know) but in WORDS & DEEDS and works against the muslim community deserve some sanction?"
Boy that's a mouthful! What about "Muslims" -- and I know a few-- who decide NOT to remain a Muslim "in words" but not in deeds. In other words, they are quite sure that they do not believe in the God/Prophet deal but agree that most of what is sanctioned in the Quran is pretty good. And they do NOT work against the Muslim, or any other, community. ??
I think I know your answer. You've already said that "the whole issue is about those who try to bring harm to the muslim COMMUNITY",
but you muddy the waters with statements such as "...As long as a MUSLIM or a non-muslim does not, by words or deeds, try to be seditious or an apostate, and thus bring harm to muslims..." which suggests that aspostasy, even in the 21st century when we're no longer fighting with small tribal allegiances, "brings harm to Muslims." Well, excuse me, but the only harm that I can see is to the rather smug mentality that holds that no one could ever have valid reason for wanting out, even, like I said, when they might not have opted 'in' to begin with.
Most people call this 'Insecurity'. I'm so glad Masadi, for one, doesn't exhibit it. Could it be that because his faith is actually stronger than most others'?
"Would not a "muslim" who decides NOT to remain a believer ( not just in heart..of which no one would know) but in WORDS & DEEDS and works against the muslim community deserve some sanction?"
Boy that's a mouthful! What about "Muslims" -- and I know a few-- who decide NOT to remain a Muslim "in words" but not in deeds. In other words, they are quite sure that they do not believe in the God/Prophet deal but agree that most of what is sanctioned in the Quran is pretty good. And they do NOT work against the Muslim, or any other, community. ??
I think I know your answer. You've already said that "the whole issue is about those who try to bring harm to the muslim COMMUNITY",
but you muddy the waters with statements such as "...As long as a MUSLIM or a non-muslim does not, by words or deeds, try to be seditious or an apostate, and thus bring harm to muslims..." which suggests that aspostasy, even in the 21st century when we're no longer fighting with small tribal allegiances, "brings harm to Muslims." Well, excuse me, but the only harm that I can see is to the rather smug mentality that holds that no one could ever have valid reason for wanting out, even, like I said, when they might not have opted 'in' to begin with.
Most people call this 'Insecurity'. I'm so glad Masadi, for one, doesn't exhibit it. Could it be that because his faith is actually stronger than most others'?
#751 Posted by echoboom on July 16, 2007 12:44:29 pm
masadi:746
So?
One "writer" used words...the one who expressed opinion that such a person be killed also used words. Did something happen?
Why are we so fond of talking in a vacuum?
The "writer" was an apostate for a long long time before he was even known as a "writer"..He was granted visas to the so-called Islamic countries all over the world. No one ratted on his "thoughts"..even the secret-service found him clean
But your beard is highly suspect at the point-of-landing. Next time use arguments to convince them otherwise.
Turning the other cheek is a very cheeky argument. It is pleasing to the ears, but rings hollow.
It is like reading the national average incomes, which includes those of Bill gates types, and suddenly feeling elated that I'm poor no more.
So?
One "writer" used words...the one who expressed opinion that such a person be killed also used words. Did something happen?
Why are we so fond of talking in a vacuum?
The "writer" was an apostate for a long long time before he was even known as a "writer"..He was granted visas to the so-called Islamic countries all over the world. No one ratted on his "thoughts"..even the secret-service found him clean
But your beard is highly suspect at the point-of-landing. Next time use arguments to convince them otherwise.
Turning the other cheek is a very cheeky argument. It is pleasing to the ears, but rings hollow.
It is like reading the national average incomes, which includes those of Bill gates types, and suddenly feeling elated that I'm poor no more.
#750 Posted by masadi on July 16, 2007 12:36:15 pm
In addition to #746 note that the Quran does not ever encourage provincialism, it talks to humankind, who have the same creator as you do; note that those people who are rejecting the truth and have not in any way spoken to harm you,among them are many apostates (those who were previously Muslims) Allah enjoins justice and kindness towards them (60:8). You harm them and you go against the commandments of Allah (4:90). He allows you retaliation ONLY against those who attack you first and want to destroy you because you submit to God.
#749 Posted by KaalChakra on July 16, 2007 12:36:14 pm
Swarrier
Et tu, swarrier? LOL
I am sorry about not noticing that reply earlier! Yes, this format sucks! :(
----------------------------------------
We have no way of knowing who disagrees with what unless that disagreement is well articulated. There is too much noise in the system. Hence, the only opinions that publicly matter are the ones that are voiced on time, clearly, forcefully, and if needed, repeatedly.
If Hindu fundamentalists are the only ones who make a racket about an important theory/idea/interpretation of history, then I guess, you agreeing with it does make you, in the eyes of others at least, a Hindu fundamentalist (welcome to the fold :)).
See, this, IMHO, is important. What you REALLY are, and what you REALLY believe is of no conern to others, unless it becomes a factor in shaping the nature of public discourse itself.
By that criteria,
Et tu, swarrier? LOL
I am sorry about not noticing that reply earlier! Yes, this format sucks! :(
----------------------------------------
We have no way of knowing who disagrees with what unless that disagreement is well articulated. There is too much noise in the system. Hence, the only opinions that publicly matter are the ones that are voiced on time, clearly, forcefully, and if needed, repeatedly.
If Hindu fundamentalists are the only ones who make a racket about an important theory/idea/interpretation of history, then I guess, you agreeing with it does make you, in the eyes of others at least, a Hindu fundamentalist (welcome to the fold :)).
See, this, IMHO, is important. What you REALLY are, and what you REALLY believe is of no conern to others, unless it becomes a factor in shaping the nature of public discourse itself.
By that criteria,
#748 Posted by KaalChakra on July 16, 2007 12:36:13 pm
Swarrier
Et tu, swarrier? LOL
I am sorry about not noticing that reply earlier! Yes, this format sucks! :(
----------------------------------------
We have no way of knowing who disagrees with what unless that disagreement is well articulated. There is too much noise in the system. Hence, the only opinions that publicly matter are the ones that are voiced on time, clearly, forcefully, and if needed, repeatedly.
If Hindu fundamentalists are the only ones who make a racket about an important theory/idea/interpretation of history, then I guess, you agreeing with it does make you, in the eyes of others at least, a Hindu fundamentalist (welcome to the fold :)).
See, this, IMHO, is important. What you REALLY are, and what you REALLY believe is of no conern to others, unless it becomes a factor in shaping the nature of public discourse itself.
By that criteria,
Et tu, swarrier? LOL
I am sorry about not noticing that reply earlier! Yes, this format sucks! :(
----------------------------------------
We have no way of knowing who disagrees with what unless that disagreement is well articulated. There is too much noise in the system. Hence, the only opinions that publicly matter are the ones that are voiced on time, clearly, forcefully, and if needed, repeatedly.
If Hindu fundamentalists are the only ones who make a racket about an important theory/idea/interpretation of history, then I guess, you agreeing with it does make you, in the eyes of others at least, a Hindu fundamentalist (welcome to the fold :)).
See, this, IMHO, is important. What you REALLY are, and what you REALLY believe is of no conern to others, unless it becomes a factor in shaping the nature of public discourse itself.
By that criteria,
#747 Posted by KaalChakra on July 16, 2007 12:26:14 pm
Having spent a few more minutes on this "new" chowk, must confess: this new format is just painful!
Hoping we will all get used to it pretty soon. Too many nice folks here for the place to be abandoned :(
-------------------------------------------
Back to the forum:
So Philo bhai, have my secular Hindu friends reverted/converted all/many Muslims on Chowk to the bandwagaon of "reform Islam now!" or "reform in Islam is just around the corner," or "sooner or later Muslims will reform Islam and Islam too will become just like any other religion," and "Islam must meet these of my speical criteria, and not preach this or that?"
It would be great fun knowing how many Muslims - other than the usual suspects such as hamidm, raw_dust, iron_mask enthusiastically agreed with my ever-persistent secular Hindu friends, and jumped up to be counted among those Muslims who wish to change Islam itself.
Or has the nature of the dialogue below once again convinced at least some Muslims (let's forget Hindus. One Nihari is enough to delude their friendly minds forever) that Hindus and Muslims, as groups, are so incompatibly different that they cannot talk intelligently to each other about important subjects (other than the nihari, which, I gather, is very delicious)?
:)
Hoping we will all get used to it pretty soon. Too many nice folks here for the place to be abandoned :(
-------------------------------------------
Back to the forum:
So Philo bhai, have my secular Hindu friends reverted/converted all/many Muslims on Chowk to the bandwagaon of "reform Islam now!" or "reform in Islam is just around the corner," or "sooner or later Muslims will reform Islam and Islam too will become just like any other religion," and "Islam must meet these of my speical criteria, and not preach this or that?"
It would be great fun knowing how many Muslims - other than the usual suspects such as hamidm, raw_dust, iron_mask enthusiastically agreed with my ever-persistent secular Hindu friends, and jumped up to be counted among those Muslims who wish to change Islam itself.
Or has the nature of the dialogue below once again convinced at least some Muslims (let's forget Hindus. One Nihari is enough to delude their friendly minds forever) that Hindus and Muslims, as groups, are so incompatibly different that they cannot talk intelligently to each other about important subjects (other than the nihari, which, I gather, is very delicious)?
:)
#746 Posted by masadi on July 16, 2007 12:24:56 pm
Echo writes "It is against human nature to be silent when opposed for some meaner ends in minds , let alone attacked. I am sure you & I pick big fight for far lesser evils for muslims, like e.g Vietnam or Germany. "
Who is asking you to be silent. My beef is with people claiming that Islam says "kill the apostates (those who have left Islam after believing)". That is an outrage against Islam, that is not what the Quran or Islam states.
Of course if anyone, apostate or not, is coming to harm you, you have a duty to stop that injustice but as the Quran says "transgress not, for Allah does not love transgressors". The guy writes a book and what do the transgressors do, they want to chop his head off, that is transgression. If he wrote, you write, he is using ideas to harm you, you use ideas to counter that. In this context the call of "kill the apostates" is nonsense.
Who is asking you to be silent. My beef is with people claiming that Islam says "kill the apostates (those who have left Islam after believing)". That is an outrage against Islam, that is not what the Quran or Islam states.
Of course if anyone, apostate or not, is coming to harm you, you have a duty to stop that injustice but as the Quran says "transgress not, for Allah does not love transgressors". The guy writes a book and what do the transgressors do, they want to chop his head off, that is transgression. If he wrote, you write, he is using ideas to harm you, you use ideas to counter that. In this context the call of "kill the apostates" is nonsense.
#745 Posted by echoboom on July 16, 2007 12:24:48 pm
masadi:743
["Echo mian, why do you want to argue with Allah when he has allowed people of whatever label complete freedom to accept or reject the truth (i.e. Quran) and their judgment will be based on that choice?"]
and am I quibbling about it?
The whole issue is about those who try to bring harm to the muslim COMMUNITY. Defense of life & property is a right of every human..not simply muslims.
and the defence of even a non-muslim, innocent and following the laws while living in a muslim community has very recourse to get the criminal muslim get capital punishment.
Crime & sin are two completely different aspects of the Islamic laws.
You have evry right to discuss these matters in a country where such laws , no matter how imperfectly, are still applied. Write to them. You won't end up anywhere discussing this here. I, for one, am just a dabbler..I am not at par with your intellectualism.
["Echo mian, why do you want to argue with Allah when he has allowed people of whatever label complete freedom to accept or reject the truth (i.e. Quran) and their judgment will be based on that choice?"]
and am I quibbling about it?
The whole issue is about those who try to bring harm to the muslim COMMUNITY. Defense of life & property is a right of every human..not simply muslims.
and the defence of even a non-muslim, innocent and following the laws while living in a muslim community has very recourse to get the criminal muslim get capital punishment.
Crime & sin are two completely different aspects of the Islamic laws.
You have evry right to discuss these matters in a country where such laws , no matter how imperfectly, are still applied. Write to them. You won't end up anywhere discussing this here. I, for one, am just a dabbler..I am not at par with your intellectualism.
#744 Posted by swarrier on July 16, 2007 12:24:41 pm
#742 Posted by Philosopher
((so that is the only BS you have noticed here? Man...this new format is just a load of crap....new formate sucks big time))
Actually no, I just thought that this would be a good place to start venting my spleen. As it stands the great Kaal has not noticed my reply to his interact because he's charging forth on his quest.))
So next criticism, this threading business (replying to interacts is very bad). People just go to the head of the queue and leave the threads behind. I have noticed that the threading concept is okay when people are interested only in their bit , but where's the fun if we cannot see everybody else's disagreements.
((so that is the only BS you have noticed here? Man...this new format is just a load of crap....new formate sucks big time))
Actually no, I just thought that this would be a good place to start venting my spleen. As it stands the great Kaal has not noticed my reply to his interact because he's charging forth on his quest.))
So next criticism, this threading business (replying to interacts is very bad). People just go to the head of the queue and leave the threads behind. I have noticed that the threading concept is okay when people are interested only in their bit , but where's the fun if we cannot see everybody else's disagreements.
#743 Posted by masadi on July 16, 2007 12:04:00 pm
Echo mian, why do you want to argue with Allah when he has allowed people of whatever label complete freedom to accept or reject the truth (i.e. Quran) and their judgment will be based on that choice?
Also understand what these Mullahs like Zeemax and the rest mean when they say that an apostate (he or she who rejects Islam after accepting it) should be killed. That is an invention against the Quran. Allah offers people the choice to believe or disbelieve and if the punishment of apostasy was outright execution why would Allah mention people believing and disbelieving again and again (4:137) i.e. more than one time.
Look man, the punishment for apostasy will be given on the last day by Allah, by hastening that punishment you want to interfere with the justice of Allah who allows everyone a natural lifetime to see how they choose and how they behave...
Zeemax's "Islam" is slogannering for the Jihadist group, it does not involve free will thought process in understanding the word of God and the truth. That kind of Islam, is the true colonization of the mind, where your mind is enslaved to received wisdom that represents the powers that be of whatever group that canonized that wisdom, the Quran is against such blind following of tradition, it is all for reason to establish the truth...
Also understand what these Mullahs like Zeemax and the rest mean when they say that an apostate (he or she who rejects Islam after accepting it) should be killed. That is an invention against the Quran. Allah offers people the choice to believe or disbelieve and if the punishment of apostasy was outright execution why would Allah mention people believing and disbelieving again and again (4:137) i.e. more than one time.
Look man, the punishment for apostasy will be given on the last day by Allah, by hastening that punishment you want to interfere with the justice of Allah who allows everyone a natural lifetime to see how they choose and how they behave...
Zeemax's "Islam" is slogannering for the Jihadist group, it does not involve free will thought process in understanding the word of God and the truth. That kind of Islam, is the true colonization of the mind, where your mind is enslaved to received wisdom that represents the powers that be of whatever group that canonized that wisdom, the Quran is against such blind following of tradition, it is all for reason to establish the truth...
#742 Posted by philosopher on July 16, 2007 11:45:49 am
#740 Posted by swarrier
(((How come the interact number right now shows 696 and the number of interacts are numbered at 739?)))
so that is the only BS you have noticed here? Man...this new format is just a load of crap....new formate sucks big time
Return us our beloved chowk.
(((How come the interact number right now shows 696 and the number of interacts are numbered at 739?)))
so that is the only BS you have noticed here? Man...this new format is just a load of crap....new formate sucks big time
Return us our beloved chowk.
#741 Posted by echoboom on July 16, 2007 11:42:13 am
masadi:737
Read again please. This is what I wrote:
["This is meant for non-muslims who should not & must not be asked to relinquish their belief system. As long as a MUSLIM or a non-muslim does not,
by words or deeds, try to be seditious or an apostate, and thus bring harm to muslims he is free to discuss even the most taboo subject within the right fora..as was done throughout the muslim world before we became the pariah dogs...precisely by NOT FOLLOWING these injunctions and preferred to be appeasers & apologists."]
Would not a "muslim" who decides NOT to remain a believer ( not just in heart..of which no one would know) but in WORDS & DEEDS and works against the muslim community deserve some sanction?
If Ayan Hrisi Ali or Salman Rushdie leave the fold & announce it too , it is fine & dandy..it has been never ever beemn a problem through out our cherished past { even when Muttwakkil declared himself to be a "god" in Egypt & wanted to be worshipped by decree..but as long as he was PROTECTING the muslim subjects there was no issue at all.
It is against human nature to be silent when opposed for some meaner ends in minds , let alone attacked. I am sure you & I pick big fight for far lesser evils for muslims, like e.g Vietnam or Germany.
Read again please. This is what I wrote:
["This is meant for non-muslims who should not & must not be asked to relinquish their belief system. As long as a MUSLIM or a non-muslim does not,
by words or deeds, try to be seditious or an apostate, and thus bring harm to muslims he is free to discuss even the most taboo subject within the right fora..as was done throughout the muslim world before we became the pariah dogs...precisely by NOT FOLLOWING these injunctions and preferred to be appeasers & apologists."]
Would not a "muslim" who decides NOT to remain a believer ( not just in heart..of which no one would know) but in WORDS & DEEDS and works against the muslim community deserve some sanction?
If Ayan Hrisi Ali or Salman Rushdie leave the fold & announce it too , it is fine & dandy..it has been never ever beemn a problem through out our cherished past { even when Muttwakkil declared himself to be a "god" in Egypt & wanted to be worshipped by decree..but as long as he was PROTECTING the muslim subjects there was no issue at all.
It is against human nature to be silent when opposed for some meaner ends in minds , let alone attacked. I am sure you & I pick big fight for far lesser evils for muslims, like e.g Vietnam or Germany.
#740 Posted by swarrier on July 16, 2007 11:39:18 am
How come the interact number right now shows 696 and the number of interacts are numbered at 739?
#739 Posted by KaalChakra on July 16, 2007 11:28:19 am
Philo bhai
Thanks!
This new format looks terrible! It does attempt to better utilize the real estate here, but at considerable cost to aesthetics. Perhaps the shock of novelty is a factor as well :(
Hope everything has been great at your end. (thumbs up icon)
Thanks!
This new format looks terrible! It does attempt to better utilize the real estate here, but at considerable cost to aesthetics. Perhaps the shock of novelty is a factor as well :(
Hope everything has been great at your end. (thumbs up icon)
#738 Posted by masadi on July 16, 2007 11:25:26 am
Zeemax writes "which fact was more than evident to everyone here when you were soundly defeated over 7:181, of which very existence you were not aware"
Actually I was not defeated except according to your sloganeering and now you are lying about it. You were adding ideas and made up contexts to the word of God, something that is no different than idolatory as you associate with Allah's words other words for which you have no proof. In fact your knowledge of the Quran, thrown out here n there for ulterior (violence) motive is quite rudimentary. I've read more Quran, indexed more words and root based context in it than you and your fellows can muster....guaranteed
Echo mian, 18:29 does not differentiate between "Muslim" and non Muslim, there is no exception given in the "let him who will believe and let him who will disbelieve"- that is the whole purpose of life for truth to be accepted free-will and not due to coersion or by household, in fact the context of the verse makes it clear that it is talking about both groups, believers and non believers.
Philosopher, I take Islam directly from the Quran, those that canonized extra Quranic material and developed an ideology out of it for ulterior motive, I reject. The Quran does not give an all encompassing, bureaucratized set of rules and procedures, it merely points you to the universal reality and how you should balance your life based upon that reality. Its purpose is to help you along the way as you fulfill the purpose of your creation, "to see which one of you is best in deed", something that requires freedom of choice and ingenuinty, and does not require narrow proceducre and all encompassing rules- those rules are extra quranic inventions. Inventing things and attributing them to God as those that clergified Islam did is akin to apostasy.
Actually I was not defeated except according to your sloganeering and now you are lying about it. You were adding ideas and made up contexts to the word of God, something that is no different than idolatory as you associate with Allah's words other words for which you have no proof. In fact your knowledge of the Quran, thrown out here n there for ulterior (violence) motive is quite rudimentary. I've read more Quran, indexed more words and root based context in it than you and your fellows can muster....guaranteed
Echo mian, 18:29 does not differentiate between "Muslim" and non Muslim, there is no exception given in the "let him who will believe and let him who will disbelieve"- that is the whole purpose of life for truth to be accepted free-will and not due to coersion or by household, in fact the context of the verse makes it clear that it is talking about both groups, believers and non believers.
Philosopher, I take Islam directly from the Quran, those that canonized extra Quranic material and developed an ideology out of it for ulterior motive, I reject. The Quran does not give an all encompassing, bureaucratized set of rules and procedures, it merely points you to the universal reality and how you should balance your life based upon that reality. Its purpose is to help you along the way as you fulfill the purpose of your creation, "to see which one of you is best in deed", something that requires freedom of choice and ingenuinty, and does not require narrow proceducre and all encompassing rules- those rules are extra quranic inventions. Inventing things and attributing them to God as those that clergified Islam did is akin to apostasy.
#737 Posted by masadi on July 16, 2007 11:21:08 am
Zeemax writes
Actually I was not defeated except according to your sloganeering. You were adding ideas and made up contexts to the word of God, something that is no different than idolatory as you associate with Allah's words other words for which you have no proof. In fact your knowledge of the Quran, thrown out here n there for ulterior (violence) motive is quite rudimentary. I've read more Quran, indexed more words and root based context in it than you and your fellows can muster....guaranteed
Echo mian, 18:29 does not differentiate between "Muslim" and non Muslim, there is no exception given in the "let him who will believe and let him who will disbelieve"- that is the whole purpose of life for truth to be accepted free-will and not due to coersion or by household, in fact the context of the verse makes it clear that it is talking about both groups, believers and non believers.
Philosopher, I take Islam directly from the Quran, those that canonized extra Quranic material and developed an ideology out of it for ulterior motive, I reject. The Quran does not give an all encompassing, bureaucratized set of rules and procedures, it merely points you to the universal reality and how you should balance your life based upon that reality. Its purpose is to help you along the way as you fulfill the purpose of your creation, "to see which one of you is best in deed", something that requires freedom of choice and ingenuinty, and does not require narrow proceducre and all encompassing rules- those rules are extra quranic inventions. Inventing things and attributing them to God as those that clergified Islam did is akin to apostasy.
Actually I was not defeated except according to your sloganeering. You were adding ideas and made up contexts to the word of God, something that is no different than idolatory as you associate with Allah's words other words for which you have no proof. In fact your knowledge of the Quran, thrown out here n there for ulterior (violence) motive is quite rudimentary. I've read more Quran, indexed more words and root based context in it than you and your fellows can muster....guaranteed
Echo mian, 18:29 does not differentiate between "Muslim" and non Muslim, there is no exception given in the "let him who will believe and let him who will disbelieve"- that is the whole purpose of life for truth to be accepted free-will and not due to coersion or by household, in fact the context of the verse makes it clear that it is talking about both groups, believers and non believers.
Philosopher, I take Islam directly from the Quran, those that canonized extra Quranic material and developed an ideology out of it for ulterior motive, I reject. The Quran does not give an all encompassing, bureaucratized set of rules and procedures, it merely points you to the universal reality and how you should balance your life based upon that reality. Its purpose is to help you along the way as you fulfill the purpose of your creation, "to see which one of you is best in deed", something that requires freedom of choice and ingenuinty, and does not require narrow proceducre and all encompassing rules- those rules are extra quranic inventions. Inventing things and attributing them to God as those that clergified Islam did is akin to apostasy.
#736 Posted by swarrier on July 16, 2007 11:12:38 am
Re: # 733
so kaal
If I were to disagree with the assertion that Buddhist monks were killed en masse by Hindus, and follow Vinay Lal's monograph/questions instead , would that make me a right wing hindu fundamentalist? -))
PS. This new format is terrible, the "O" in chowk at the top seems to leer maniacally as one types. Better watch your p's and q's.
so kaal
If I were to disagree with the assertion that Buddhist monks were killed en masse by Hindus, and follow Vinay Lal's monograph/questions instead , would that make me a right wing hindu fundamentalist? -))
PS. This new format is terrible, the "O" in chowk at the top seems to leer maniacally as one types. Better watch your p's and q's.
#735 Posted by philosopher on July 16, 2007 10:38:16 am
#733 Posted by KaalChakra
kaal sahib...wellcome back...we missed you.
sir...where have you been man???we all here are protesting against this new format...we want the original chowk back...please record your protest...if you agree with us...
it looks like a chat forum.
kaal sahib...wellcome back...we missed you.
sir...where have you been man???we all here are protesting against this new format...we want the original chowk back...please record your protest...if you agree with us...
it looks like a chat forum.
#734 Posted by krishna_abcd on July 16, 2007 10:30:08 am
#732 Posted by philosopher
karishan baby
[karishna son of stampede crowd...]
Instead of worrying about who my father is, first figure out who amongst the four of your mothers is your actual mother. : )
[...what paki muslim guys here can discuss/think would be unimaginable for even a billion zoo full of hindu gods. ]
Yes. Paki intellect has become famous in the world. Pakiland has become world famous for its IT (International Terrorism).
Here's a learning opportunity for you. Did you know about the origin ghazals - the pride of Islamic culture?
Read it up. :)
karishan baby
[karishna son of stampede crowd...]
Instead of worrying about who my father is, first figure out who amongst the four of your mothers is your actual mother. : )
[...what paki muslim guys here can discuss/think would be unimaginable for even a billion zoo full of hindu gods. ]
Yes. Paki intellect has become famous in the world. Pakiland has become world famous for its IT (International Terrorism).
Here's a learning opportunity for you. Did you know about the origin ghazals - the pride of Islamic culture?
Read it up. :)
#733 Posted by KaalChakra on July 16, 2007 10:28:52 am
krishna
"Islamist old fart"
Those are unkind words. Haideri has no reason to reject the argument made and history as taught by Hindu secularists themselves.
Hindu secularists have been teaching that Hindus mass killed Buddhists, which is why Buddhism practically disappeared from India.
If a Muslim merely agrees with Hindu secularists, he or she does not become an old Islamist fart.
To my knowledge, no Hindu secularist on Chowk has seriously questioned this assertion.
"Islamist old fart"
Those are unkind words. Haideri has no reason to reject the argument made and history as taught by Hindu secularists themselves.
Hindu secularists have been teaching that Hindus mass killed Buddhists, which is why Buddhism practically disappeared from India.
If a Muslim merely agrees with Hindu secularists, he or she does not become an old Islamist fart.
To my knowledge, no Hindu secularist on Chowk has seriously questioned this assertion.
#732 Posted by philosopher on July 16, 2007 10:19:50 am
#730 Posted by krishna_abcd
karishan baby
so you are creating awarness in us??? you must be kidding...
karishna son of stampede crowd...what paki muslim guys here can discuss/think would be unimaginable for even a billion zoo full of hindu gods.
karishan baby
so you are creating awarness in us??? you must be kidding...
karishna son of stampede crowd...what paki muslim guys here can discuss/think would be unimaginable for even a billion zoo full of hindu gods.
#731 Posted by echoboom on July 16, 2007 10:18:24 am
You heard that right,
When I said "booked"..I meant that the man wishing to marry must be "booked"..be of Al-Kitaab..which word is exclusively used for the Qura'an ( Al-Kitaab; Zaal-i-kul Kitaab: This, the-book)
and again I'm thankful to you. Perhaps It appeared ambiguous entirely due to my penchant of having fun with words.
When I said "booked"..I meant that the man wishing to marry must be "booked"..be of Al-Kitaab..which word is exclusively used for the Qura'an ( Al-Kitaab; Zaal-i-kul Kitaab: This, the-book)
and again I'm thankful to you. Perhaps It appeared ambiguous entirely due to my penchant of having fun with words.
#730 Posted by krishna_abcd on July 16, 2007 10:14:33 am
Instead of relying on Madrassa-material, and printed products of the Pakistani Islamist machinery, why don't YOU cite chapter and verse from authentic sources, old fart?
By the way. There was no winged creature in a cave that communicated with ol' mo. The whole thing was made up to hoodwink and control barbaric bedouins. There are no flying angels. No houris to comb your grey pubic hairs. No pre-pubescent "untouched like pearls" little boys. No bearded guy waiting to embrace you.
Nothing, old man. You have wasted your time banging your head on the ground praying to a fiction of mo's imagination. He hoodwinked all you guys while boinking anything he could lay his hands on, left, right and center.
All you guys are deserving of pity. I feel sorry for you.
By the way. There was no winged creature in a cave that communicated with ol' mo. The whole thing was made up to hoodwink and control barbaric bedouins. There are no flying angels. No houris to comb your grey pubic hairs. No pre-pubescent "untouched like pearls" little boys. No bearded guy waiting to embrace you.
Nothing, old man. You have wasted your time banging your head on the ground praying to a fiction of mo's imagination. He hoodwinked all you guys while boinking anything he could lay his hands on, left, right and center.
All you guys are deserving of pity. I feel sorry for you.
#729 Posted by philosopher on July 16, 2007 10:09:35 am
Re:#727 Posted by echoboom on July 16, 2007 9:48:13 am
well...yes...but in womon's case its not allowed with ahlai-kitaab' men either????
man can marry women of ahl-kitaab' but women can marry only muslims...that's what i have heard...isnt it???
well...yes...but in womon's case its not allowed with ahlai-kitaab' men either????
man can marry women of ahl-kitaab' but women can marry only muslims...that's what i have heard...isnt it???
#728 Posted by haideri on July 16, 2007 9:52:18 am
Re: # 726
Persecution of Buddhists started during "Pusyamitra Sunga". Go read a book in a reputed Library. Any idiot like you can edit the wikipedia.
haideri
Persecution of Buddhists started during "Pusyamitra Sunga". Go read a book in a reputed Library. Any idiot like you can edit the wikipedia.
haideri
#727 Posted by echoboom on July 16, 2007 9:48:13 am
#725 Posted by philosopher on July 16, 2007 8:59:33 am
It simply means those who do not follow " Al-Kitaab"..the Quraan.
thanks for seeking this clarification..
It simply means those who do not follow " Al-Kitaab"..the Quraan.
thanks for seeking this clarification..
#726 Posted by krishna_abcd on July 16, 2007 9:21:16 am
#698 haideri
[Who screwed the peace loving Buddhist after the fall of Gupta?
It were Hindus who kicked them out and confined them to the border areas.
Why were peace loving Buddhist persecuted?
They refused to accept Brahma and Vedas bullshit]
Here's a clue for you, ignorant islamist old fart:
From wikipedia:
Nalanda was one of the world's first residential universities, i.e., it had dormitories for students. In its heyday it accommodated over 10,000 students and 2,000 teachers. The university was considered an "architectural masterpiece," and was marked by a lofty wall and one gate. Nalanda had eight separate compounds and ten temples, along with many other meditation halls and classrooms. On the grounds were lakes and parks. The library was located in a nine storied building where meticulous copies of texts were produced. The subjects taught at Nalanda University covered every field of learning, and it attracted pupils and scholars from Korea, Japan, China, Tibet, Indonesia, Persia and Turkey.[4] The Tang Dynasty Chinese pilgrim Xuanzang left detailed accounts of the university in the 7th century.
Influence on Buddhism
A vast amount of what is considered to be Tibetan Buddhism (Vajrayana) actually stems from the late (9th-12th century) Nalanda teachers and traditions. Other forms of Buddhism, like the Mahayana followed in Vietnam, China, Korea and Japan, found their genesis within the walls of the ancient university.
Also Theravada Buddhism was taught at Nalanda University. But the teachings of Theravada were not developed further in Nalanda, as Nalanda was not a strong center of Theravada.
Decline and End
In 1193, the Nalanda University complex was sacked by Turkic Muslim invaders under Bakhtiyar Khilji; this event is seen as a milestone in the decline of Buddhism in India. It is said that Khilji asked if there was a copy of the Koran at Nalanda before he sacked it[citation needed]. When the Tibetan translator Chag Lotsawa visited them in 1235, he found them damaged and looted, but still functioning with a small number of monks. The destruction of the universities at Nalanda, as well as the destruction of many temples and monasteries throughout northern India which housed centers of learning, is considered by many historians to be responsible for the sudden demise of ancient Indian scientific thought in mathematics, astronomy, alchemy, and anatomy.[17] Fortified Sena monasteries along the main route of the invasion were destroyed, and being off the main route both Nalanda and Bodh Gaya survived. Many institutions off the main route such as the Jagaddala Monastery in northern Bengal were untouched and flourishing.
[Who screwed the peace loving Buddhist after the fall of Gupta?
It were Hindus who kicked them out and confined them to the border areas.
Why were peace loving Buddhist persecuted?
They refused to accept Brahma and Vedas bullshit]
Here's a clue for you, ignorant islamist old fart:
From wikipedia:
Nalanda was one of the world's first residential universities, i.e., it had dormitories for students. In its heyday it accommodated over 10,000 students and 2,000 teachers. The university was considered an "architectural masterpiece," and was marked by a lofty wall and one gate. Nalanda had eight separate compounds and ten temples, along with many other meditation halls and classrooms. On the grounds were lakes and parks. The library was located in a nine storied building where meticulous copies of texts were produced. The subjects taught at Nalanda University covered every field of learning, and it attracted pupils and scholars from Korea, Japan, China, Tibet, Indonesia, Persia and Turkey.[4] The Tang Dynasty Chinese pilgrim Xuanzang left detailed accounts of the university in the 7th century.
Influence on Buddhism
A vast amount of what is considered to be Tibetan Buddhism (Vajrayana) actually stems from the late (9th-12th century) Nalanda teachers and traditions. Other forms of Buddhism, like the Mahayana followed in Vietnam, China, Korea and Japan, found their genesis within the walls of the ancient university.
Also Theravada Buddhism was taught at Nalanda University. But the teachings of Theravada were not developed further in Nalanda, as Nalanda was not a strong center of Theravada.
Decline and End
In 1193, the Nalanda University complex was sacked by Turkic Muslim invaders under Bakhtiyar Khilji; this event is seen as a milestone in the decline of Buddhism in India. It is said that Khilji asked if there was a copy of the Koran at Nalanda before he sacked it[citation needed]. When the Tibetan translator Chag Lotsawa visited them in 1235, he found them damaged and looted, but still functioning with a small number of monks. The destruction of the universities at Nalanda, as well as the destruction of many temples and monasteries throughout northern India which housed centers of learning, is considered by many historians to be responsible for the sudden demise of ancient Indian scientific thought in mathematics, astronomy, alchemy, and anatomy.[17] Fortified Sena monasteries along the main route of the invasion were destroyed, and being off the main route both Nalanda and Bodh Gaya survived. Many institutions off the main route such as the Jagaddala Monastery in northern Bengal were untouched and flourishing.
#725 Posted by philosopher on July 16, 2007 8:59:33 am
#724 Posted by echoboom
((((Islam does not allow a muslim woman marrying someone who is not ’’Booked’’))))
Dada will you please explain it??? what is ''booked'??
#724 Posted by echoboom on July 16, 2007 8:54:30 am
from my "prison-diary"
IN praise of Dost-Mittar
..................................
Dost-mittar:647
P.S. I will be disappointed if you don’t add me to your list of Hate Pandits.
_________________________________________________________
Dost
Mullata tahmed32 had not received this size shoe on his face up till now.
p.s: Mulla is a GOOD word; Pandit-hate is GOOD word ( use them often) but Mullata is the Cantonment Mullato* who is the ONLY one who preaches on this site.... Hence he is Mullata ( bad word ; use it often for him only)
* use www.dictionary.com
Dost:
Islam does not allow a muslim woman marrying someone who is not ’’Booked’’..In the absence of Shariah it does happen, that someone takes the law into their own hands...Once muslims have their own laws & send the stupid Britto-Baboon law to the gallows..life will be OK.
Anyone trying to put a spin on this clear , explicit, and un-interpretable Quranic injunction is not only a non-muslim but also is your worst enemy you can ever think of.
He is a kanjaroon..BEWARE!
IN praise of Dost-Mittar
..................................
Dost-mittar:647
P.S. I will be disappointed if you don’t add me to your list of Hate Pandits.
_________________________________________________________
Dost
Mullata tahmed32 had not received this size shoe on his face up till now.
p.s: Mulla is a GOOD word; Pandit-hate is GOOD word ( use them often) but Mullata is the Cantonment Mullato* who is the ONLY one who preaches on this site.... Hence he is Mullata ( bad word ; use it often for him only)
* use www.dictionary.com
Dost:
Islam does not allow a muslim woman marrying someone who is not ’’Booked’’..In the absence of Shariah it does happen, that someone takes the law into their own hands...Once muslims have their own laws & send the stupid Britto-Baboon law to the gallows..life will be OK.
Anyone trying to put a spin on this clear , explicit, and un-interpretable Quranic injunction is not only a non-muslim but also is your worst enemy you can ever think of.
He is a kanjaroon..BEWARE!
#723 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on July 16, 2007 8:24:22 am
Did the same brilliant person who advised Mushy to act swiftly against the Lal Masjid inmates also advise Chowk to change it's format?
#722 Posted by haideri on July 16, 2007 8:05:28 am
The new format is hard on the eyes of this old man. Please switch to the old format or I won't be visiting the chowk anymore
#721 Posted by echoboom on July 16, 2007 7:41:35 am
#708:masadi
Of course "let him who will believe, and let him who will disbelieve"...is correct.
First of all it does not mean that a muslim should be a "citizen" of Islam & follow a different "constituition" at different times of the day. This is meant for non-muslims who should not & must not be asked to relinquish their belief system. As long as a MUSLIM or a non-muslim does not,
by words or deeds, try to be seditious or an apostate, and thus bring harm to muslims he is free to discuss even the most taboo subject within the right fora..as was done throughout the muslim world before we became the pariah dogs...precisely by NOT FOLLOWING these injunctions and preferred to be appeasers & apologists.
Of course "let him who will believe, and let him who will disbelieve"...is correct.
First of all it does not mean that a muslim should be a "citizen" of Islam & follow a different "constituition" at different times of the day. This is meant for non-muslims who should not & must not be asked to relinquish their belief system. As long as a MUSLIM or a non-muslim does not,
by words or deeds, try to be seditious or an apostate, and thus bring harm to muslims he is free to discuss even the most taboo subject within the right fora..as was done throughout the muslim world before we became the pariah dogs...precisely by NOT FOLLOWING these injunctions and preferred to be appeasers & apologists.
#720 Posted by tahmed32 on July 16, 2007 7:23:24 am
I love the fact that you can skip the article and go to the interacts!
#719 Posted by philosopher on July 16, 2007 6:34:56 am
'Former chowk' staff
If you guys don't switch back to my beloved original chowk in next couple of days....i will boycott this website....
This is not the chowk i love.
If you guys don't switch back to my beloved original chowk in next couple of days....i will boycott this website....
This is not the chowk i love.
#718 Posted by philosopher on July 16, 2007 5:27:27 am
Re: # 717
arjun2
(((alert('new format sucks'). The new format sucks.)))
Agreed...alert('new format sucks'). The new format sucks.
alert('new format sucks'). The new format sucks.
arjun2
(((alert('new format sucks'). The new format sucks.)))
Agreed...alert('new format sucks'). The new format sucks.
alert('new format sucks'). The new format sucks.
#716 Posted by philosopher on July 16, 2007 5:21:04 am
Re: # 707 echo dada
great example...great synopsis of the organismic nature of the ideological system.
great example...great synopsis of the organismic nature of the ideological system.
#715 Posted by philosopher on July 16, 2007 5:19:49 am
Re: # 707 echo dada
great example...great synopsis of the organismic nature of the ideological system.
great example...great synopsis of the organismic nature of the ideological system.
#714 Posted by philosopher on July 16, 2007 4:05:31 am
Re: # 708Masadi
((((You might be "for" it but Allah surely isn't. He is quite clear in the Quran: "let him who will believe, and let him who will disbelive".
If you, zee, echo or whoever invent lies against Allah, that itself is a crime similar to apostasy)))))
Masadi you know i am great admirer of your scholarship and your anti-colonialism approach.But one thing really surprises me about you and that is...that despite being a sociologist you sometimes seem to consider Islam an abstract moral philosophy not an all-inclusive ideological system. If you really thinks that Islam is an ideology than i don't see any need to tell you how an ideological system functions.
Can an ideological system function if you keep diluting it and recociling it with whatever ''emotively moral jargons'' you come across? Your stance on polygamy, apostasy...etc is just inexplicable. Doesn't it itself show the colonisation of mind? We don't have to be apologetic about Islam. I am not suggesting that we should accept unquestionably whatever Mullah impose on us but if something is indespensable part of the islamic ideological system or for that matter is necessary to regulate any ideological system we shouldn't be apologetic to accept that just because 'liberaloon' Muslims don't like Mullahs.
((((You might be "for" it but Allah surely isn't. He is quite clear in the Quran: "let him who will believe, and let him who will disbelive".
If you, zee, echo or whoever invent lies against Allah, that itself is a crime similar to apostasy)))))
Masadi you know i am great admirer of your scholarship and your anti-colonialism approach.But one thing really surprises me about you and that is...that despite being a sociologist you sometimes seem to consider Islam an abstract moral philosophy not an all-inclusive ideological system. If you really thinks that Islam is an ideology than i don't see any need to tell you how an ideological system functions.
Can an ideological system function if you keep diluting it and recociling it with whatever ''emotively moral jargons'' you come across? Your stance on polygamy, apostasy...etc is just inexplicable. Doesn't it itself show the colonisation of mind? We don't have to be apologetic about Islam. I am not suggesting that we should accept unquestionably whatever Mullah impose on us but if something is indespensable part of the islamic ideological system or for that matter is necessary to regulate any ideological system we shouldn't be apologetic to accept that just because 'liberaloon' Muslims don't like Mullahs.
#713 Posted by philosopher on July 16, 2007 4:04:34 am
Re: # 708Masadi
((((You might be "for" it but Allah surely isn't. He is quite clear in the Quran: "let him who will believe, and let him who will disbelive".
If you, zee, echo or whoever invent lies against Allah, that itself is a crime similar to apostasy)))))
Masadi you know i am great admirer of your scholarship and your anti-colonialism approach.But one thing really surprises me about you and that is...that despite being a sociologist you sometimes seem to consider Islam an abstract moral philosophy not an all-inclusive ideological system. If you really thinks that Islam is an ideology than i don't see any need to tell you how an ideological system functions.
Can an ideological system function if you keep diluting it and recociling it with whatever ''emotively moral jargons'' you come across? Your stance on polygamy, apostasy...etc is just inexplicable. Doesn't it itself show the colonisation of mind? We don't have to be apologetic about Islam. I am not suggesting that we should accept unquestionably whatever Mullah impose on us but if something is indespensable part of the islamic ideological system or for that matter is necessary to regulate any ideological system we shouldn't be apologetic to accept that just because 'liberaloon' Muslims don't like Mullahs.
((((You might be "for" it but Allah surely isn't. He is quite clear in the Quran: "let him who will believe, and let him who will disbelive".
If you, zee, echo or whoever invent lies against Allah, that itself is a crime similar to apostasy)))))
Masadi you know i am great admirer of your scholarship and your anti-colonialism approach.But one thing really surprises me about you and that is...that despite being a sociologist you sometimes seem to consider Islam an abstract moral philosophy not an all-inclusive ideological system. If you really thinks that Islam is an ideology than i don't see any need to tell you how an ideological system functions.
Can an ideological system function if you keep diluting it and recociling it with whatever ''emotively moral jargons'' you come across? Your stance on polygamy, apostasy...etc is just inexplicable. Doesn't it itself show the colonisation of mind? We don't have to be apologetic about Islam. I am not suggesting that we should accept unquestionably whatever Mullah impose on us but if something is indespensable part of the islamic ideological system or for that matter is necessary to regulate any ideological system we shouldn't be apologetic to accept that just because 'liberaloon' Muslims don't like Mullahs.
#712 Posted by philosopher on July 16, 2007 3:29:56 am
hey chowk staff..
what the hell is this....where is the chowk i am in love with???? Switch back to the original format. oh man....for God sake....its so disturbing...i am so disturbed to see it.
hey guys...come on ....just request the staff to return us our beloved chowk....please.
what the hell is this....where is the chowk i am in love with???? Switch back to the original format. oh man....for God sake....its so disturbing...i am so disturbed to see it.
hey guys...come on ....just request the staff to return us our beloved chowk....please.
#711 Posted by zeemax on July 16, 2007 3:19:01 am
#708 Posted by masadi,
Masadi Saheb, with due respect kindly focus on sociology which is your true forte. Qura'an certainly isn't, which fact was more than evident to everyone here when you were soundly defeated over 7:181, of which very existence you were not aware, let alone its meaning as conveyed by the Hadees' accompanying it, all of which I had reproduced.
So, kindly do not teach us who is an apostate, and who isn't.
Masadi Saheb, with due respect kindly focus on sociology which is your true forte. Qura'an certainly isn't, which fact was more than evident to everyone here when you were soundly defeated over 7:181, of which very existence you were not aware, let alone its meaning as conveyed by the Hadees' accompanying it, all of which I had reproduced.
So, kindly do not teach us who is an apostate, and who isn't.
#710 Posted by Humsab on July 16, 2007 2:32:54 am
Philosopher ji
If you keep on progressing like this then you will not remain philosopher. For being a philosopher, one needs to have unshackled mind not at all bonded by any dogma. Youngman, you are intelligent. It is better if you come up with new philosophical theory rather then letting yourself influenced and led by others. Try to preserve and develop your independent mind.
Best of Luck
If you keep on progressing like this then you will not remain philosopher. For being a philosopher, one needs to have unshackled mind not at all bonded by any dogma. Youngman, you are intelligent. It is better if you come up with new philosophical theory rather then letting yourself influenced and led by others. Try to preserve and develop your independent mind.
Best of Luck
#709 Posted by masadi on July 16, 2007 2:10:13 am
The copy-paste under is from another blog to show you all that blood thirsty, provincial, bigots are not only found among those following the mullah brand of Islam, the CVI- Crusader Version of Islam, they are found among the real Crusaders (from whose image the Mullah has borrowed)
From the Yahoo News Blog, this A-Hole wrote
"For those of you who seem to be convinced in your thoughts that the United States, and our government is a killing nation, and that we are done or have been done with Iraq since may of 2003. Maybe each of you should move your asses out of the U.S. and become a Muslim follower over in Afghanistan. Those of you who sympathize with the people over there in Iraq, and Afghanistan. Move on over there with those you seem to have a stronger feeling for, instead of your country men, and those whom have lost their lives since September 11, 2001.
I say we nuke the shit out of them, why spend all of this money on the drones? $64 million for one of them, and how much does a nuke run for these days? furthermore, all those lives that have been lost of the men and women in uniform, I can see we didn't learn much from the Vietnam war/conflict. We have the nuclear bombs technology and warfare use them!"
From the Yahoo News Blog, this A-Hole wrote
"For those of you who seem to be convinced in your thoughts that the United States, and our government is a killing nation, and that we are done or have been done with Iraq since may of 2003. Maybe each of you should move your asses out of the U.S. and become a Muslim follower over in Afghanistan. Those of you who sympathize with the people over there in Iraq, and Afghanistan. Move on over there with those you seem to have a stronger feeling for, instead of your country men, and those whom have lost their lives since September 11, 2001.
I say we nuke the shit out of them, why spend all of this money on the drones? $64 million for one of them, and how much does a nuke run for these days? furthermore, all those lives that have been lost of the men and women in uniform, I can see we didn't learn much from the Vietnam war/conflict. We have the nuclear bombs technology and warfare use them!"
#708 Posted by masadi on July 16, 2007 1:58:53 am
Philosopher writes ".....Now I am for the merciless beheading of apostates and any `oon` who tries to dilute the message of Islam."
You might be "for" it but Allah surely isn't. He is quite clear in the Quran: "let him who will believe, and let him who will disbelive".
If you, zee, echo or whoever invent lies against Allah, that itself is a crime similar to apostasy
You might be "for" it but Allah surely isn't. He is quite clear in the Quran: "let him who will believe, and let him who will disbelive".
If you, zee, echo or whoever invent lies against Allah, that itself is a crime similar to apostasy
#707 Posted by echoboom on July 15, 2007 10:57:34 pm
#697: Philosopher sahib,
It was indeed very heartening to know about your change of heart in these crucial matters.
One cannot stay in a condominium complex, where one has agreed to keep no pets, and insist upon keeping rattle-snakes & try to "interpret" the meaning of the word "pet". Of-course, the bye-law book cannot each & every creature on earth already known to man or would be known in future.
Certain by-laws do get changed & "reformed" by shoora ( consultation) of Directors..but the very basic ROOT ones , if tampered with, would make the very concept of condo. Apartment absurt...e.g: someone would want to have all apartment dwellers, if need be, allowed to sleep in the hallways or a prostitute resident is within her right to solicit in the lobby etc etc and strut about in skimpy & suggestive and "inviting" clothing.
It was indeed very heartening to know about your change of heart in these crucial matters.
One cannot stay in a condominium complex, where one has agreed to keep no pets, and insist upon keeping rattle-snakes & try to "interpret" the meaning of the word "pet". Of-course, the bye-law book cannot each & every creature on earth already known to man or would be known in future.
Certain by-laws do get changed & "reformed" by shoora ( consultation) of Directors..but the very basic ROOT ones , if tampered with, would make the very concept of condo. Apartment absurt...e.g: someone would want to have all apartment dwellers, if need be, allowed to sleep in the hallways or a prostitute resident is within her right to solicit in the lobby etc etc and strut about in skimpy & suggestive and "inviting" clothing.
#706 Posted by Daska123 on July 15, 2007 7:07:43 pm
Without a doubt the Lal Masjid leadership were taking the law into their own hands and openly challenging civil authorities. I can't understand why the government waited so long to act' they could have cordoned off the area and slowly forced the leadership into submission by denying food , electricity and supplies. There was no need for this operation at this time. I think that the Lal Masjid folks were actually encouraged initially by the dictatorship to send a message to the world community and diplomats in Islamabad. It was Musharraf's way of saying " if not for me look what will happen here in Pakistan" No body believes him of course but how could this happen in Islamabad unless Musharraf and the present leadership are even more incompetent than people already think they are. Another thing and this is the main problem. Musharraf himself has no regard for the laws and consitution of Pakistan- otherwise he would not have illegally seized power and turned the country into a dictsatorship. It's beacuse Musharraf and the army brass doen't follow laws or the consitution that others feel they too can break laws. This is why we msut return to a functioning democracy with rule of law! Pakistan zindabad!
#705 Posted by arjun2 on July 15, 2007 4:35:08 pm
#697 by philosopher on July 15, 2007 3:01pm PT
Now I am for the merciless beheading of apostates and any `oon` who tries to dilute the message of Islam.
Your eagerness is limited by your ability..or the lack thereof...
thinks people who insult mo must die?
Mohammed and his child-bride Aisha.
Now I am for the merciless beheading of apostates and any `oon` who tries to dilute the message of Islam.
Your eagerness is limited by your ability..or the lack thereof...
thinks people who insult mo must die?
Mohammed and his child-bride Aisha.
#704 Posted by bjkumar on July 15, 2007 4:22:27 pm
#700 Phil-suffer
Yaar relax! Nobody is gonna drink ya!
#703 Posted by krishna_abcd on July 15, 2007 4:17:08 pm
#700 by philosopher
Spoken like a true Islamic philosopher. Now go chase a 6-year old for some Islamic lovin`.
:)
Spoken like a true Islamic philosopher. Now go chase a 6-year old for some Islamic lovin`.
:)
#702 Posted by bubba on July 15, 2007 3:56:49 pm
Re: # 674 by FarzanaVersey on July 15, 2007 7:18am PT
[But someone else has offered to pay...``Farzana, I am ready to pay for your expenses to ......and set up the trust to run this school and build more such schools.``
Giving me instructions sitting in Silicon Valley...
Re. liberals...my post 144 talks of ``vocational liberalism``. You know, collect funds for Hillary Clinton types... ]
Thank you , Ferzana, for hitting where it should hurt.
[But someone else has offered to pay...``Farzana, I am ready to pay for your expenses to ......and set up the trust to run this school and build more such schools.``
Giving me instructions sitting in Silicon Valley...
Re. liberals...my post 144 talks of ``vocational liberalism``. You know, collect funds for Hillary Clinton types... ]
Thank you , Ferzana, for hitting where it should hurt.
#701 Posted by anil on July 15, 2007 3:37:50 pm
Re: # 666
Farzana:
1. What is wrong if you want to make a donation to an institution? Donation of your time would be very useful to this institution that I had mentioned.
2. Zhanda utha ke.... patli galli se... This to me is truly amazing, and you may quote me on this too. I talked about the work of this institution, my mother and my sisters. I have not mentioned anything about myself or my work. Once again, if you choose to donate your time, that would be indeed wonderful. If the religious component is taken, you might find a similarity in this institute and Jamia Hafsa, both near the seat of power in the capital and imparting education to poor kids. I am quite proud of this work, and will never do Zhanda utah ke.... patli galli se....
3. Please read one more time what you quoted as instructions from Silicon Valley, you may not find it as instructions.
4. You could accuse me of cheap publicity when I mentioned the Sonia Gandhi`s driver`s kid, but can you honestly take away the credit from the kids who achieved what they did? Knowing you, I am certain you would not do it. Institutions often promote the awareness of successes of its students. I do not see anything wrong either in it, or in when you mentioned or wrote about your admirable work with poor, prostitues and others.
5. It seems to me that you really like labeling people into categories, and get upset when someone implies you are an activist. Like you, I also do not like being labeled libral, I have not seen here, many liberals supporting Jamia Hafsa girls.
6. Please try to see the connection that I am making between my question to Hodhbhoy and work at individual level. I can certainly explain more, if that would be necessary. Also, it was not for Hillary Clinton, that was John Kerry. Like it or not, fund raising is crucial not only for the democratic process.
6. I, of course, will vote for Hillary, and would vote for you too. I would not vote for Pratibha Patil for President. I can hardly be patronizing, but I do believe more women must be engaged at all levels, starting at empowering young girls with education everywhere.
7. Not every game is cat and mouse, that you must catch so called ``level headed`` get away, whatever you mean by that, even if it was were a compliment or sarcasm. Many people indeed know limited ways of doing thing. Just as possibly you must see every situation as cat and mouse that there must be a gotcha in eveything. May be investigative journalism has given you a sixth sense to see all situations this way. There is a thing called role model also, that might get missed when everything is looked from cat and mouse perspective.
I am done with thread. I do want to leave it that I do admire the work you have done and do. I am looking forward to reading your book. As I know you through your writings, you raise the bar for the majority, which may be necessary to keep a balance in socities. Therefore, I certainly look forward to your perspective of Pakistan where muslims are certainly in majority.
Farzana:
1. What is wrong if you want to make a donation to an institution? Donation of your time would be very useful to this institution that I had mentioned.
2. Zhanda utha ke.... patli galli se... This to me is truly amazing, and you may quote me on this too. I talked about the work of this institution, my mother and my sisters. I have not mentioned anything about myself or my work. Once again, if you choose to donate your time, that would be indeed wonderful. If the religious component is taken, you might find a similarity in this institute and Jamia Hafsa, both near the seat of power in the capital and imparting education to poor kids. I am quite proud of this work, and will never do Zhanda utah ke.... patli galli se....
3. Please read one more time what you quoted as instructions from Silicon Valley, you may not find it as instructions.
4. You could accuse me of cheap publicity when I mentioned the Sonia Gandhi`s driver`s kid, but can you honestly take away the credit from the kids who achieved what they did? Knowing you, I am certain you would not do it. Institutions often promote the awareness of successes of its students. I do not see anything wrong either in it, or in when you mentioned or wrote about your admirable work with poor, prostitues and others.
5. It seems to me that you really like labeling people into categories, and get upset when someone implies you are an activist. Like you, I also do not like being labeled libral, I have not seen here, many liberals supporting Jamia Hafsa girls.
6. Please try to see the connection that I am making between my question to Hodhbhoy and work at individual level. I can certainly explain more, if that would be necessary. Also, it was not for Hillary Clinton, that was John Kerry. Like it or not, fund raising is crucial not only for the democratic process.
6. I, of course, will vote for Hillary, and would vote for you too. I would not vote for Pratibha Patil for President. I can hardly be patronizing, but I do believe more women must be engaged at all levels, starting at empowering young girls with education everywhere.
7. Not every game is cat and mouse, that you must catch so called ``level headed`` get away, whatever you mean by that, even if it was were a compliment or sarcasm. Many people indeed know limited ways of doing thing. Just as possibly you must see every situation as cat and mouse that there must be a gotcha in eveything. May be investigative journalism has given you a sixth sense to see all situations this way. There is a thing called role model also, that might get missed when everything is looked from cat and mouse perspective.
I am done with thread. I do want to leave it that I do admire the work you have done and do. I am looking forward to reading your book. As I know you through your writings, you raise the bar for the majority, which may be necessary to keep a balance in socities. Therefore, I certainly look forward to your perspective of Pakistan where muslims are certainly in majority.
#700 Posted by philosopher on July 15, 2007 3:34:52 pm
Re: # 699
karishna
((((What can I say. Even if you were born into this cult, if you were more intelligent, you would have figured it out. But you don`t have what it takes.)))))
Hi guys....i tell what it takes to figure it out what karishna is suggeting......
A hot cup of gao-muttar in the morning before breakfast(remeber it must be after morning walk...dont shake that muttar too much in your stomach.....coz gao ji doesnt want you to piss it in the `devta toilet bowl ji`) (shhhhh...karishna has told me a secret.....there is fight going on between gao ji and baghwaan toilet bowl ji on the issue of muttar.......even they have blamed `linga` devta as well. but `linga` devta was found sleeping 24/7 so it is being assumed in the circle of bhagwaans that....this mess is being created by the paki or muslim linga terrorists......Gao knows best)
Three spoon hot and fresh Goaber with bread. one cup of gao-muttar tea. Always smell the smoke rising from the goaber and muttar and try to find,deep and multi layred spirtual truth. feel the spirtual mystry sorrounding the smoke of muttar.And don`t forget to go to zoo to have `darashan` of all the gods.
Eat gao-goaber........drink muttar......be hindu.
karishna
((((What can I say. Even if you were born into this cult, if you were more intelligent, you would have figured it out. But you don`t have what it takes.)))))
Hi guys....i tell what it takes to figure it out what karishna is suggeting......
A hot cup of gao-muttar in the morning before breakfast(remeber it must be after morning walk...dont shake that muttar too much in your stomach.....coz gao ji doesnt want you to piss it in the `devta toilet bowl ji`) (shhhhh...karishna has told me a secret.....there is fight going on between gao ji and baghwaan toilet bowl ji on the issue of muttar.......even they have blamed `linga` devta as well. but `linga` devta was found sleeping 24/7 so it is being assumed in the circle of bhagwaans that....this mess is being created by the paki or muslim linga terrorists......Gao knows best)
Three spoon hot and fresh Goaber with bread. one cup of gao-muttar tea. Always smell the smoke rising from the goaber and muttar and try to find,deep and multi layred spirtual truth. feel the spirtual mystry sorrounding the smoke of muttar.And don`t forget to go to zoo to have `darashan` of all the gods.
Eat gao-goaber........drink muttar......be hindu.
#699 Posted by krishna_abcd on July 15, 2007 3:13:15 pm
#696 by haideri
It hard to tell from one or two posts sometimes. But now it is clear. You are an uninformed islamic idiot. That`s called a tautology.
What`s the points discussing or arguing anything with you?
By the way. There was no winged creature in the cave. The old man made it all up. And he ruled over you guys and screwed around as he wanted, whoever he wanted and did pretty much what he wanted.
I feel sorry for you. And no - it`s not the hatred for the ``other`` religion. I like Parsees, for example, and Jews, and most Christians. And I respect Christ. He was a good man. No son of god, but a good man.
What can I say. Even if you were born into this cult, if you were more intelligent, you would have figured it out. But you don`t have what it takes.
Goodbye.
It hard to tell from one or two posts sometimes. But now it is clear. You are an uninformed islamic idiot. That`s called a tautology.
What`s the points discussing or arguing anything with you?
By the way. There was no winged creature in the cave. The old man made it all up. And he ruled over you guys and screwed around as he wanted, whoever he wanted and did pretty much what he wanted.
I feel sorry for you. And no - it`s not the hatred for the ``other`` religion. I like Parsees, for example, and Jews, and most Christians. And I respect Christ. He was a good man. No son of god, but a good man.
What can I say. Even if you were born into this cult, if you were more intelligent, you would have figured it out. But you don`t have what it takes.
Goodbye.
#698 Posted by haideri on July 15, 2007 3:12:12 pm
Re: # 695
Who screwed the peace loving Buddhist after the fall of Gupta?
It were Hindus who kicked them out and confined them to the border areas.
Why were peace loving Buddhist persecuted?
They refused to accept Brahma and Vedas bullshit
Who screwed the peace loving Buddhist after the fall of Gupta?
It were Hindus who kicked them out and confined them to the border areas.
Why were peace loving Buddhist persecuted?
They refused to accept Brahma and Vedas bullshit
#697 Posted by philosopher on July 15, 2007 3:01:03 pm
Echo Dada says..;
#686 by echoboom on July 15, 2007 12:08pm PT
((((((#686Preventing More Lal Masjids on
July 15, 2007
Krishna-abcd:
Qur`aan instructs us to edit those who even dare to even imply to edit the Qura,an -Al-Hakeem. Did anybody tell you that the plight of muslims lie in NOT following the clear cut instruction by the Quraa-Al-Majeed--including this injunction.
Never let Mullato tsmithers32 & other assorted & motrley Kanjaroons keep you in the dark. An open , chivalrous, and bold enemy is your best friend....and their is no shortage of those in your neighborhood.
Never Never ever forget that.))))))
(((((Qur`aan instructs us to edit those who even dare to even imply to edit the Qura,an -Al-Hakeem. Did anybody tell you that the plight of muslims lie in NOT following the clear cut instruction by the Quraa-Al-Majeed--including this injunction)))))
Echo/zee
A couple of weeks ago i wont accept it.....and i have always opposed zeemax on the issue of the capital punishment of apostates.....Now I am for the merciless beheading of apostates and any `oon` who tries to dilute the message of Islam.
#686 by echoboom on July 15, 2007 12:08pm PT
((((((#686Preventing More Lal Masjids on
July 15, 2007
Krishna-abcd:
Qur`aan instructs us to edit those who even dare to even imply to edit the Qura,an -Al-Hakeem. Did anybody tell you that the plight of muslims lie in NOT following the clear cut instruction by the Quraa-Al-Majeed--including this injunction.
Never let Mullato tsmithers32 & other assorted & motrley Kanjaroons keep you in the dark. An open , chivalrous, and bold enemy is your best friend....and their is no shortage of those in your neighborhood.
Never Never ever forget that.))))))
(((((Qur`aan instructs us to edit those who even dare to even imply to edit the Qura,an -Al-Hakeem. Did anybody tell you that the plight of muslims lie in NOT following the clear cut instruction by the Quraa-Al-Majeed--including this injunction)))))
Echo/zee
A couple of weeks ago i wont accept it.....and i have always opposed zeemax on the issue of the capital punishment of apostates.....Now I am for the merciless beheading of apostates and any `oon` who tries to dilute the message of Islam.
#696 Posted by haideri on July 15, 2007 2:57:00 pm
Re: # 684
YOU ARE FULL OF SHIT!...I have worked in India with UNDP and know your culture better than you can ever imagine. Brahmin`s don`t even let Dalits come into their kitchen or touch their food. According to one of my Hindu Indian friends ``Our Gods even don`t speak the truth...and you expect us to speak the truth`` then he explained the ``Makhan`` stealing episode.
haideri
YOU ARE FULL OF SHIT!...I have worked in India with UNDP and know your culture better than you can ever imagine. Brahmin`s don`t even let Dalits come into their kitchen or touch their food. According to one of my Hindu Indian friends ``Our Gods even don`t speak the truth...and you expect us to speak the truth`` then he explained the ``Makhan`` stealing episode.
haideri
#695 Posted by krishna_abcd on July 15, 2007 2:48:50 pm
#691 by Salim_Chauhan
[#685 by krishna_abcd on July 15, 2007 11:57am PT
{``.A case in point - Malayasia.
For centuries, it was a Hindu/Buddhist country with gentle and nonviolent practices. THEN Islam came in. Today death threats for apostasy, mob lynching etc. are commonplace in Malayasia. ...``}
O Enlightened One!
Please tell us when the armies of the Muslims conquered Malaysia and Indonesia and whether these invaders were Ottoman Turks or Indian Mughals - maybe they were Tartars who came from Crimea or the Muslims who came from Al Andalus. So much for your constant crap about forcible conversion of Hindus, Buddhists, and others. ]
Let me enlighten you.
You are trying to change the issue. My point was not that ``Islam is bad for a society IF that society was conquered/converted``. My point was that ``Islam is ALWAYS bad for a society, PERIOD``.
Do you get the difference? I`m sure you do.
But since you brought up a new point, let me educate you about this one too.
About the forcible conversion issue. As I have said in many posts before, in any Muslim-ruled land, the conversions take place due to gradual and inexorable pressure exerted upon the non-Mulsim population.
Islam has many instruments directed to this very end.
One is economic pressure - in the for of grossly unequal taxation. Poor peasants succumb more easily than the rest. For them, it is the difference between starvation, jail, flogging, or conversion and immediate relief. (ask me, I`ll give examples). Also, non-Muslims are systematically discriminated against in government and related jobs (Ask me, I`ll give examples). Many people convert just to make their life easier.
Second, there is the constant stigma and ostracization by the Islamic society of the non-Mulsims. The method to accomplish this is listed out in great detail in your manual. If you are a non-Mulsim, your women will never be as safe as the Muslims. Your businesses will be much less likely to thrive.
Then there are other ways. During the Ottoman Empire, in Greece and in Yugoslavia, every family had to send their eldest son (I think it was the eldest - I have to look it up) to join the Islamic army. There they were converted to Islam. Many Greek mothers used to maim their own son to prevent their son from being converted. (ask me - I`ll give references). The deep and abiding hatred for Muslims in Yugoslavia did not happen in a vacuum.
Ther are many other ways, too. Maybe we can go over those later.
But one thing I can tell you. You are following a very bad man. You don`t have to. Just be yourself. And be good to others.
[#685 by krishna_abcd on July 15, 2007 11:57am PT
{``.A case in point - Malayasia.
For centuries, it was a Hindu/Buddhist country with gentle and nonviolent practices. THEN Islam came in. Today death threats for apostasy, mob lynching etc. are commonplace in Malayasia. ...``}
O Enlightened One!
Please tell us when the armies of the Muslims conquered Malaysia and Indonesia and whether these invaders were Ottoman Turks or Indian Mughals - maybe they were Tartars who came from Crimea or the Muslims who came from Al Andalus. So much for your constant crap about forcible conversion of Hindus, Buddhists, and others. ]
Let me enlighten you.
You are trying to change the issue. My point was not that ``Islam is bad for a society IF that society was conquered/converted``. My point was that ``Islam is ALWAYS bad for a society, PERIOD``.
Do you get the difference? I`m sure you do.
But since you brought up a new point, let me educate you about this one too.
About the forcible conversion issue. As I have said in many posts before, in any Muslim-ruled land, the conversions take place due to gradual and inexorable pressure exerted upon the non-Mulsim population.
Islam has many instruments directed to this very end.
One is economic pressure - in the for of grossly unequal taxation. Poor peasants succumb more easily than the rest. For them, it is the difference between starvation, jail, flogging, or conversion and immediate relief. (ask me, I`ll give examples). Also, non-Muslims are systematically discriminated against in government and related jobs (Ask me, I`ll give examples). Many people convert just to make their life easier.
Second, there is the constant stigma and ostracization by the Islamic society of the non-Mulsims. The method to accomplish this is listed out in great detail in your manual. If you are a non-Mulsim, your women will never be as safe as the Muslims. Your businesses will be much less likely to thrive.
Then there are other ways. During the Ottoman Empire, in Greece and in Yugoslavia, every family had to send their eldest son (I think it was the eldest - I have to look it up) to join the Islamic army. There they were converted to Islam. Many Greek mothers used to maim their own son to prevent their son from being converted. (ask me - I`ll give references). The deep and abiding hatred for Muslims in Yugoslavia did not happen in a vacuum.
Ther are many other ways, too. Maybe we can go over those later.
But one thing I can tell you. You are following a very bad man. You don`t have to. Just be yourself. And be good to others.
#694 Posted by echoboom on July 15, 2007 2:48:39 pm
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#693 Posted by anil on July 15, 2007 2:45:58 pm
Re: # 676
Dost Sahib:
Since you have studied Koran, please write an essay on your study of this book? Knowing you, it would not be one-sided critique either.
Dost Sahib:
Since you have studied Koran, please write an essay on your study of this book? Knowing you, it would not be one-sided critique either.
#692 Posted by arjun2 on July 15, 2007 2:19:25 pm
#690 by philosopher on July 15, 2007 1:45pm PT
HAHa....feeling frustrated? I hope you`re in the land of the pure and not in the west...here, you can`t do it with a 9 year old and get away with saying pbuh guy did it too...
HAHa....feeling frustrated? I hope you`re in the land of the pure and not in the west...here, you can`t do it with a 9 year old and get away with saying pbuh guy did it too...
#691 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on July 15, 2007 1:46:23 pm
#685 by krishna_abcd on July 15, 2007 11:57am PT
{``.A case in point - Malayasia.
For centuries, it was a Hindu/Buddhist country with gentle and nonviolent practices. THEN Islam came in. Today death threats for apostasy, mob lynching etc. are commonplace in Malayasia. ...``}
O Enlightened One!
Please tell us when the armies of the Muslims conquered Malaysia and Indonesia and whether these invaders were Ottoman Turks or Indian Mughals - maybe they were Tartars who came from Crimea or the Muslims who came from Al Andalus. So much for your constant crap about forcible conversion of Hindus, Buddhists, and others.
{``.A case in point - Malayasia.
For centuries, it was a Hindu/Buddhist country with gentle and nonviolent practices. THEN Islam came in. Today death threats for apostasy, mob lynching etc. are commonplace in Malayasia. ...``}
O Enlightened One!
Please tell us when the armies of the Muslims conquered Malaysia and Indonesia and whether these invaders were Ottoman Turks or Indian Mughals - maybe they were Tartars who came from Crimea or the Muslims who came from Al Andalus. So much for your constant crap about forcible conversion of Hindus, Buddhists, and others.
#690 Posted by philosopher on July 15, 2007 1:45:13 pm
Re: # 689
yap...my hindu daughter in law is not here....the one that i got as a war booty.....i need some fresh maal......arjun you are already a ``kalank ka teeka`` on the ass of gao-maata from where she gives you fresh and hot goaber and give you the muttar to keep the energy flowing in your body...so it won`t be big prblem for you do it onnce more....why don`t you send your sister?????i promise......after islamic revolution I would screw your ass at least twice a day.....believe me.
yap...my hindu daughter in law is not here....the one that i got as a war booty.....i need some fresh maal......arjun you are already a ``kalank ka teeka`` on the ass of gao-maata from where she gives you fresh and hot goaber and give you the muttar to keep the energy flowing in your body...so it won`t be big prblem for you do it onnce more....why don`t you send your sister?????i promise......after islamic revolution I would screw your ass at least twice a day.....believe me.
#689 Posted by arjun2 on July 15, 2007 1:32:57 pm
#688 by philosopher on July 15, 2007 12:59pm PT
aww...what`s the matter...your daughter not around for you to do the ass thing on? feeling frustrated?
aww...what`s the matter...your daughter not around for you to do the ass thing on? feeling frustrated?
#688 Posted by philosopher on July 15, 2007 12:59:13 pm
Re: # 687
arjun the son of stampede crowd...
((((If muslims stopped flying planes into buildings, blowing up nightclubs, blowing up subways, blowing up trains and beheading people..))))
You forgot another point that is real reason behind this pain in your bloody Ass
(((( and stop screwing hindu`s dirty hairy ass....))))
arjun the son of stampede crowd...
((((If muslims stopped flying planes into buildings, blowing up nightclubs, blowing up subways, blowing up trains and beheading people..))))
You forgot another point that is real reason behind this pain in your bloody Ass
(((( and stop screwing hindu`s dirty hairy ass....))))
#687 Posted by arjun2 on July 15, 2007 12:48:04 pm
#682 by haideri on July 15, 2007 10:54am PT
If muslims stopped flying planes into buildings, blowing up nightclubs, blowing up subways, blowing up trains and beheading people..most people wouldn`t give mohammad`s behind about what they did in their own backyard....
get it?
If muslims stopped flying planes into buildings, blowing up nightclubs, blowing up subways, blowing up trains and beheading people..most people wouldn`t give mohammad`s behind about what they did in their own backyard....
get it?
#686 Posted by echoboom on July 15, 2007 12:08:45 pm
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#685 Posted by krishna_abcd on July 15, 2007 11:57:18 am
In addition to my previous posts...
All those who try to ascribe the ills of Muslim societies to social backwardness, are LYING.
A case in point - Malayasia.
For centuries, it was a Hindu/Buddhist country with gentle and nonviolent practices. THEN Islam came in. Today death threats for apostasy, mob lynching etc. are commonplace in Malayasia. The SAME society, reverted back towards barbarian practices with the introduction of Islam.
Muslims should stop making excuses and make some changes. Edit the Koran, and Muhammad`s life history, to begin with. Both set VERY bad examples.
All those who try to ascribe the ills of Muslim societies to social backwardness, are LYING.
A case in point - Malayasia.
For centuries, it was a Hindu/Buddhist country with gentle and nonviolent practices. THEN Islam came in. Today death threats for apostasy, mob lynching etc. are commonplace in Malayasia. The SAME society, reverted back towards barbarian practices with the introduction of Islam.
Muslims should stop making excuses and make some changes. Edit the Koran, and Muhammad`s life history, to begin with. Both set VERY bad examples.
#684 Posted by krishna_abcd on July 15, 2007 11:50:54 am
#682 by haideri
[Re: # 681
How common are the marriages between a Brahmin and Dalit? The Cyber Napoleons are out there to help/correct others when their own backyard is on fire.
haideri ]
It is good that you are trying to engage in a logical discussion.
You are bound to fail, of course, but I respect the honest attempt.
Okay, here we go....
There are LOTS of Brahmins marrying Dalits. When MY parents were looking for someone for me to marry, and they advertised in the newspaper, they advertised ``Caste no bar`` as do millions of Brahmins. However, because of differences in cultural and educational levels, finding good matches is much more difficult between Brahmins and Dalits.
Also, the main point is, in the OVERWHELMING majority of areas in India (barring maybe SOME parts of Bihar, UP etc.), nobody even notices nowadays.
In Pakistan, in a Muslim converts to Hinduism for marrying someone, he/she would be killed.
GET THE DIFFERENCE?
Are YOU a ``Cyber Napoleon``, maybe?
[Re: # 681
How common are the marriages between a Brahmin and Dalit? The Cyber Napoleons are out there to help/correct others when their own backyard is on fire.
haideri ]
It is good that you are trying to engage in a logical discussion.
You are bound to fail, of course, but I respect the honest attempt.
Okay, here we go....
There are LOTS of Brahmins marrying Dalits. When MY parents were looking for someone for me to marry, and they advertised in the newspaper, they advertised ``Caste no bar`` as do millions of Brahmins. However, because of differences in cultural and educational levels, finding good matches is much more difficult between Brahmins and Dalits.
Also, the main point is, in the OVERWHELMING majority of areas in India (barring maybe SOME parts of Bihar, UP etc.), nobody even notices nowadays.
In Pakistan, in a Muslim converts to Hinduism for marrying someone, he/she would be killed.
GET THE DIFFERENCE?
Are YOU a ``Cyber Napoleon``, maybe?
#683 Posted by haideri on July 15, 2007 10:57:57 am
Re: # 681
Youth killed for marrying Brahmin girl
Tribune News Service
Rohtak, October 7
Sanjay, a dalit youth, was stabbed to death allegedly by his father-in-law and five others in the Ekta Colony here last night.
He had married a Brahmin girl three years ago but his wife’s family had not reconciled to the inter-caste marriage. Late last night he was caught by his father-in-law Raj Kumar and his accomplices and stabbed repeatedly. He succumbed to his injuries sometime later. Two of the deceased’s friends were also hurt. The police has arrested Raj Kumar while five others — Amit, Parveen and Monu and two unidentified persons are absconding.
Man, brother held for dowry death
Our Correspondent
Rewari, October 7
The police here has arrested Bhim Singh (husband) and Bir Singh (brother-in-law) both sons of Duli Chand Gujjar in connection with the dowry death of Ratti (26) whose body was found hanging from ceiling in suspicious circumstances in a room at their house in Mohalla Rajiv Nagar, here on September 28.
It is alleged that Ratti daughter of Mata Din Gujjar of Alwar district of Rajasthan, who married Bhim Singh five years ago, was subjected to torture for dowry following which she ended her life.
On a complaint of Mata Din, the police registered a case of dowry death under Sections 498-A, 304-B of the IPC against Bhim Singh, Bir Singh and father-in-law Duli Chand, mother-in-law Bimla Devi and others.
Youth killed for marrying Brahmin girl
Tribune News Service
Rohtak, October 7
Sanjay, a dalit youth, was stabbed to death allegedly by his father-in-law and five others in the Ekta Colony here last night.
He had married a Brahmin girl three years ago but his wife’s family had not reconciled to the inter-caste marriage. Late last night he was caught by his father-in-law Raj Kumar and his accomplices and stabbed repeatedly. He succumbed to his injuries sometime later. Two of the deceased’s friends were also hurt. The police has arrested Raj Kumar while five others — Amit, Parveen and Monu and two unidentified persons are absconding.
Man, brother held for dowry death
Our Correspondent
Rewari, October 7
The police here has arrested Bhim Singh (husband) and Bir Singh (brother-in-law) both sons of Duli Chand Gujjar in connection with the dowry death of Ratti (26) whose body was found hanging from ceiling in suspicious circumstances in a room at their house in Mohalla Rajiv Nagar, here on September 28.
It is alleged that Ratti daughter of Mata Din Gujjar of Alwar district of Rajasthan, who married Bhim Singh five years ago, was subjected to torture for dowry following which she ended her life.
On a complaint of Mata Din, the police registered a case of dowry death under Sections 498-A, 304-B of the IPC against Bhim Singh, Bir Singh and father-in-law Duli Chand, mother-in-law Bimla Devi and others.
#682 Posted by haideri on July 15, 2007 10:54:37 am
Re: # 681
How common are the marriages between a Brahmin and Dalit? The Cyber Napoleons are out there to help/correct others when their own backyard is on fire.
haideri
How common are the marriages between a Brahmin and Dalit? The Cyber Napoleons are out there to help/correct others when their own backyard is on fire.
haideri
#681 Posted by krishna_abcd on July 15, 2007 10:35:37 am
#671 by tahmed32
Let me point out some of the obfuscations:
[1. Religious conversions: I think we are in agreement then that in traditional hindu and muslim societies, cross-religion marriages were frowned upon.]
``Frowned upon`` is not exactly the same as ``killing``.
Why don`t you give me examples of Muslims converting to Hinduism and walking around with their heads intact in Pakistan, and I`ll give you MANY examples of Hindus converting to Islam in India and still being VERY popular in the society ().
Oh, and by the way, you can adjust the numbers for the Hindu:Muslim population ratio for both countries. (See, I think of everything. :) )
[Regarding you question for hindu boy marrying a muslim girl in Pakistan - while I dont know any hindu boy (let alone hindu boy marrying a muslim girl) in Pakistan for the obvious reason that we have virtually no hindus except in rural south of Pakistan, I do know of a such a couple in the US. Your question implies that you think that if there was such a couple in Pakistan they would be killed - so now it is my turn to ask if you can provide me of a single such case. I certainly never heard of any.]
Again, obfuscation. In America it is possible. Because the society is not Islamic, and beheadings are not permitted. And this is precisely the point.
Also, and I have posted this before, I personally live within 5 miles of one such couple - the girl is Hindu Punjabi, the boy is Muslim from Pakistan. The girl was forced to convert (due to pressure from her in-laws) against her wishes (she is a friend of my wife), and she is treated with suspicion and resentment by her in-laws that she is not a true Muslim. She has to prove her Muslimness by following a very strict religious life - going to mosque 50 times a day and whatnot.
[btw, this is not just a hindu-muslim thing: this transtion is true for all human societies.]
No. It is not. Stop trying to obfuscate. NO OTHER SOCIETY KILLS FOR APOSTASY. GET IT? NO OTHER SOCIETY!!
[2. Caste system: You provide an example of hindus condemning the caste system (which you too rightly condemn), and ask if I can provide an example of an prominent muslim condemning islamist terrorism. Surely you jest, sir. :-) What does hamidm (a prominent chowkie muslim) do all day on chowk except condemn islamist terrorism? How many hindus on chowk are so dedicated to condemning the caste system? answer: zero. What was lal masjid about? Pakistani soldiers laid down their lives trying to fight terrorists and save innocent lives at the same time - and there is ample evidence of Pakistanis supporting musharraf on this even if they are opposed
Let me point out some of the obfuscations:
[1. Religious conversions: I think we are in agreement then that in traditional hindu and muslim societies, cross-religion marriages were frowned upon.]
``Frowned upon`` is not exactly the same as ``killing``.
Why don`t you give me examples of Muslims converting to Hinduism and walking around with their heads intact in Pakistan, and I`ll give you MANY examples of Hindus converting to Islam in India and still being VERY popular in the society ().
Oh, and by the way, you can adjust the numbers for the Hindu:Muslim population ratio for both countries. (See, I think of everything. :) )
[Regarding you question for hindu boy marrying a muslim girl in Pakistan - while I dont know any hindu boy (let alone hindu boy marrying a muslim girl) in Pakistan for the obvious reason that we have virtually no hindus except in rural south of Pakistan, I do know of a such a couple in the US. Your question implies that you think that if there was such a couple in Pakistan they would be killed - so now it is my turn to ask if you can provide me of a single such case. I certainly never heard of any.]
Again, obfuscation. In America it is possible. Because the society is not Islamic, and beheadings are not permitted. And this is precisely the point.
Also, and I have posted this before, I personally live within 5 miles of one such couple - the girl is Hindu Punjabi, the boy is Muslim from Pakistan. The girl was forced to convert (due to pressure from her in-laws) against her wishes (she is a friend of my wife), and she is treated with suspicion and resentment by her in-laws that she is not a true Muslim. She has to prove her Muslimness by following a very strict religious life - going to mosque 50 times a day and whatnot.
[btw, this is not just a hindu-muslim thing: this transtion is true for all human societies.]
No. It is not. Stop trying to obfuscate. NO OTHER SOCIETY KILLS FOR APOSTASY. GET IT? NO OTHER SOCIETY!!
[2. Caste system: You provide an example of hindus condemning the caste system (which you too rightly condemn), and ask if I can provide an example of an prominent muslim condemning islamist terrorism. Surely you jest, sir. :-) What does hamidm (a prominent chowkie muslim) do all day on chowk except condemn islamist terrorism? How many hindus on chowk are so dedicated to condemning the caste system? answer: zero. What was lal masjid about? Pakistani soldiers laid down their lives trying to fight terrorists and save innocent lives at the same time - and there is ample evidence of Pakistanis supporting musharraf on this even if they are opposed