Preventing More Lal Masjids
Pervez Hoodbhoy July 10, 2007
#1004 Posted by akcheema on February 23, 2008 6:15:52 am
Has any one ever wondered about the following:
If a book (the Qur’an in this situation) is meant to be from God/Allah, why do two individuals of equivalent intelligence always come up with different interpretations of the text?
There are many contradictions in the Quran; the only people unable to see them are those completely brainwashed and have lost the ability to think rationally. They come up with all sorts of historical/non-historical justifications for these such as the arabic language/literary peculiarities etc. nothing substantial or scientific; perhaps they are not aware of this concept.
There are literally billions and billions of galaxies and star systems in our “known” universe; supposedly we are talking about a creator that is well beyond the confines of any material boundaries; why would such a “person” even care about what goes on in individual hearts and minds on a teeny weeny planet! Why would he be upset about, for example, a woman showing off a bit of skin or someone not observing some ritual exactly how it was prescribed (when there are literally hundreds of such, very contradictory, rituals in Islam amongst the sects; not to quote countless other similar examples.
If the “Loh-e-Mahfouz” was the first thing created with the deeds of all living things and their fate already prescribed, what the hell is the meaning of “the free will”?!
If a ruler of my country wanted me to abide by ceratin rules, I would expect them to be laid down explicitly and clearly for all to understand. Otherwise, I would think they were unjust in prosecuting me for misgivings; why are there so many ambiguities as to what the “true Islam” is; that definition is certainly not unanimous by anyone’s standards as we ll know; the interpretations are so varied and far apart at times that it is mind boggling!
According to the Quran, Allah gave his blessings to the Bani Israel but they betrayed his trust many a times, so he went off them completely and chose a different people for revival of his “Only and True Message”! Are we thinking that an omniscient and omnipotent God, with the inherent knowledge of everything, transcendent through the confines of time, made a mistake!! Then he tried to correct it by chosing arabia for his chosen messanger! How odd!!
Prayer is such a contradictory term, don’t you think. If all is already decided, does God change his mind if we were to grovel before him and grants us our desires as a reward; very confusing!!
The only answers I ever got for these as a child, and many other similar questions, was that we CANNOT work out God’s will and he is the only one who does; what the hell are we doing with our assess up in the air five times a day then!!
All of the above seem to be the desires of the needy and not fullfilled “persona” (to quote Al-Razi); Is it that we have created this “persona” is OUR OWN IMAGE rather than the other way around?
Is our “conflict” with the rest of the world sheer paranoia “they are out to get us”!! and the only reason we cannot accept this is our inherent “sense of pride” so deeply indoctrinated that we cannot listen to reason.
The reason I am talking about the Islamic context here is because that is my background and I wish to discuss the very foundations of this faith. It is all very well to hide behind the “good aspects” of Islamic history and ignore the other “less desirable” aspects, but the question is what it is all based on; without foundation, there is nothing left. I criticise any dogma based on “faith” and th other so-called faiths are no exception to this; however, I prefer people from those cultures to comment on their own cultural heritages.
Problem with being “moderate” is that moderation, whatever it might mean, harbours and nurtures extremist elemnts. Extremists to me mean people who are trying to follow their “faiths” down to the last letter. This Sufism etc have nothing to do with what Islam actually is; it is a digression from the mainstream. Sufis were always at the fringes of mainstream society and their ideas of “Sulha-e-kul” etc have nothing to do with the message of Islam; though I do admit it can make Islam a bit more palatable!
If we had all the “knowledge/Ilm” in the Quran, why would we strive for more; the whole idea of “the completeness” of “Deen/way of life” is not compatible with modernity of any kind, however that is defined. Of course we can cherry pick and find quotes to justify absolutely anything that WE WANT TO; that itself is the biggest weakness of religious dogma; interpretable with vast differences of opinions between individuals of equivalent intelligence!
Surely, they can't ALL be true!!!
If a book (the Qur’an in this situation) is meant to be from God/Allah, why do two individuals of equivalent intelligence always come up with different interpretations of the text?
There are many contradictions in the Quran; the only people unable to see them are those completely brainwashed and have lost the ability to think rationally. They come up with all sorts of historical/non-historical justifications for these such as the arabic language/literary peculiarities etc. nothing substantial or scientific; perhaps they are not aware of this concept.
There are literally billions and billions of galaxies and star systems in our “known” universe; supposedly we are talking about a creator that is well beyond the confines of any material boundaries; why would such a “person” even care about what goes on in individual hearts and minds on a teeny weeny planet! Why would he be upset about, for example, a woman showing off a bit of skin or someone not observing some ritual exactly how it was prescribed (when there are literally hundreds of such, very contradictory, rituals in Islam amongst the sects; not to quote countless other similar examples.
If the “Loh-e-Mahfouz” was the first thing created with the deeds of all living things and their fate already prescribed, what the hell is the meaning of “the free will”?!
If a ruler of my country wanted me to abide by ceratin rules, I would expect them to be laid down explicitly and clearly for all to understand. Otherwise, I would think they were unjust in prosecuting me for misgivings; why are there so many ambiguities as to what the “true Islam” is; that definition is certainly not unanimous by anyone’s standards as we ll know; the interpretations are so varied and far apart at times that it is mind boggling!
According to the Quran, Allah gave his blessings to the Bani Israel but they betrayed his trust many a times, so he went off them completely and chose a different people for revival of his “Only and True Message”! Are we thinking that an omniscient and omnipotent God, with the inherent knowledge of everything, transcendent through the confines of time, made a mistake!! Then he tried to correct it by chosing arabia for his chosen messanger! How odd!!
Prayer is such a contradictory term, don’t you think. If all is already decided, does God change his mind if we were to grovel before him and grants us our desires as a reward; very confusing!!
The only answers I ever got for these as a child, and many other similar questions, was that we CANNOT work out God’s will and he is the only one who does; what the hell are we doing with our assess up in the air five times a day then!!
All of the above seem to be the desires of the needy and not fullfilled “persona” (to quote Al-Razi); Is it that we have created this “persona” is OUR OWN IMAGE rather than the other way around?
Is our “conflict” with the rest of the world sheer paranoia “they are out to get us”!! and the only reason we cannot accept this is our inherent “sense of pride” so deeply indoctrinated that we cannot listen to reason.
The reason I am talking about the Islamic context here is because that is my background and I wish to discuss the very foundations of this faith. It is all very well to hide behind the “good aspects” of Islamic history and ignore the other “less desirable” aspects, but the question is what it is all based on; without foundation, there is nothing left. I criticise any dogma based on “faith” and th other so-called faiths are no exception to this; however, I prefer people from those cultures to comment on their own cultural heritages.
Problem with being “moderate” is that moderation, whatever it might mean, harbours and nurtures extremist elemnts. Extremists to me mean people who are trying to follow their “faiths” down to the last letter. This Sufism etc have nothing to do with what Islam actually is; it is a digression from the mainstream. Sufis were always at the fringes of mainstream society and their ideas of “Sulha-e-kul” etc have nothing to do with the message of Islam; though I do admit it can make Islam a bit more palatable!
If we had all the “knowledge/Ilm” in the Quran, why would we strive for more; the whole idea of “the completeness” of “Deen/way of life” is not compatible with modernity of any kind, however that is defined. Of course we can cherry pick and find quotes to justify absolutely anything that WE WANT TO; that itself is the biggest weakness of religious dogma; interpretable with vast differences of opinions between individuals of equivalent intelligence!
Surely, they can't ALL be true!!!
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#1003 Posted by nkg on December 11, 2007 8:19:48 pm
I find communism and Islam similar ( I am no expert in both the matters).Both of these beliefs are doing ( apprently) good to one at the cost of others. Try to organise and thrash the oposition to submission. They take stand, which is not principled but most of the people like that. Ultimately, both of these are very popular, but the people follow it, has dismal record of human contribution.
I have heard a nice story....
A gang of robbers looted a bank using fake arms. While escaping, the employees of the bank started shouting. The robbers has come by couple of bicycles. So, how will they escape? Thay have looted around 2.8 lakhs. They have thrown around 1 lakhs to the people around the bank and easily escaped. Most of us are like,those who were collecting money thrown by robbers.
I have heard a nice story....
A gang of robbers looted a bank using fake arms. While escaping, the employees of the bank started shouting. The robbers has come by couple of bicycles. So, how will they escape? Thay have looted around 2.8 lakhs. They have thrown around 1 lakhs to the people around the bank and easily escaped. Most of us are like,those who were collecting money thrown by robbers.
#1002 Posted by nkg on December 11, 2007 8:03:12 pm
Re: # 965
Are you from India? Most of the riots are started by moslems (Meerut, Bhagalpur, Mumbai). Moslems were of the view that they are very couragious and can easily inflict injury to the people there ( most of the people there are vegetarian and strictly practice non violence). When RSS/VHP/Shiv Sena organize people in large number and starts thrashing moslems and police backs them, they starts cribbing. Don't start riots. Use Friday afternoon prayer to bring peace in your mind, not start violence. Why don't you see similar riots with Christians, Jains, Budhdhists in India? The history of riots in Gujrat is more than 200 year old. Most of the time moslems used to start and inflict more casualty on the Gujratis. Last riot (2002), for the first time in Gujrat, moslems were in receiving end.So, the way media is projecting, is not the situation on ground. The riot was supported by large section of non-moslems. How come people of a state, which have a bright son like M K Gandhi resorts to violence? I have sympathy for moslems in Gujrat. But, the problem they have created in Gujrati society is far more dangerous. They are truning into a Hindu equivalent of Moslem society (Left liberal poeple call Gujrat now Hindu Pakistan).
Are you from India? Most of the riots are started by moslems (Meerut, Bhagalpur, Mumbai). Moslems were of the view that they are very couragious and can easily inflict injury to the people there ( most of the people there are vegetarian and strictly practice non violence). When RSS/VHP/Shiv Sena organize people in large number and starts thrashing moslems and police backs them, they starts cribbing. Don't start riots. Use Friday afternoon prayer to bring peace in your mind, not start violence. Why don't you see similar riots with Christians, Jains, Budhdhists in India? The history of riots in Gujrat is more than 200 year old. Most of the time moslems used to start and inflict more casualty on the Gujratis. Last riot (2002), for the first time in Gujrat, moslems were in receiving end.So, the way media is projecting, is not the situation on ground. The riot was supported by large section of non-moslems. How come people of a state, which have a bright son like M K Gandhi resorts to violence? I have sympathy for moslems in Gujrat. But, the problem they have created in Gujrati society is far more dangerous. They are truning into a Hindu equivalent of Moslem society (Left liberal poeple call Gujrat now Hindu Pakistan).
#1001 Posted by nkg on December 11, 2007 7:38:43 pm
Re: # 997
Your mind is perfectly perverted. If you are that much concerned with Indian association, then please stop Pakistani patients to be treated in Indian hospitals. India is much larger opportunity for people of Pakistan than Pakistan. It is up to the individual to decide what he/she wants. Regarding the matter of Kashmir, it is political. When India and USA were in different camp, other than sensitive areas, people to people contact was quite well. Don't mix diplomatic,defence matters with common people's interest. Pakistan is now in better position about Kashmir. Once, USA finds any links with Kashmiri militants with international terrorism, USA will force Pakistan to close these terrorist training camps. Pakistan has lost in all front ( diplomatic channel in UN,military adventure) in Kashmir several times. That is the reason, they are using jihadis in informal way.
Your mind is perfectly perverted. If you are that much concerned with Indian association, then please stop Pakistani patients to be treated in Indian hospitals. India is much larger opportunity for people of Pakistan than Pakistan. It is up to the individual to decide what he/she wants. Regarding the matter of Kashmir, it is political. When India and USA were in different camp, other than sensitive areas, people to people contact was quite well. Don't mix diplomatic,defence matters with common people's interest. Pakistan is now in better position about Kashmir. Once, USA finds any links with Kashmiri militants with international terrorism, USA will force Pakistan to close these terrorist training camps. Pakistan has lost in all front ( diplomatic channel in UN,military adventure) in Kashmir several times. That is the reason, they are using jihadis in informal way.
#1000 Posted by nkg on December 11, 2007 7:28:52 pm
Re: # 998
There are couple of factors you are not taking into account.
What British people will do after capturing the land? That area was not of great resource and significance. So, they have left that area. The role of US technology in defeating USSR is well known.
There are couple of factors you are not taking into account.
What British people will do after capturing the land? That area was not of great resource and significance. So, they have left that area. The role of US technology in defeating USSR is well known.
#999 Posted by hunzai on November 18, 2007 7:16:32 pm
Is there a viable quick fix to the radicalism that has engulfed Pakistan over the last one decade? I don’t think so there is one. Then what is the alternative. Regrettably there is not any single alternative either. There will always be a diversity of interpretations of Islam (as has been historically), diversity of religious expressions, political persuasions and some form of radicalism. This has been the general historic pattern and character of any Muslim society for a very very long period of Islam’s tumultuous history. Given these conditions and I suppose sweeping assumptions about the nature of our history then what is so questionable and bewildering about contemporary radicalism in Pakistan. It is the senselessly violent behaviour that has penetrated in the minds of religious zealots that is going to be a terrible thing. So where is the wellspring of this hatred and violence that has to be directed against? It is the West, if we talk in terms of geography, and modernity and its consequences if we talk about in terms of the guiding philosophy. Although West may be a confined idea of a monolithic real and abstract entity but modernity is fluid. Modernity is all over, it has penetrated into the heart of ‘Islam’. So the enemy is all that is modern. These unassailable religious horsemen of apocalypse, always talk about the ‘signs of the day of judgement’ and deliver endless sermons in mosques denigrating the West and its ‘moral decadence’. They will endlessly talk about the promiscuous behaviour of Western women and their jealously guarded liberty, but they miss the fundamental point about this whole exercise.
What is it that they miss? Well they miss the point that modernity is not just a conspiracy against Islam or modernity leads to moral decadence. This is a totally mis-understood phenomenon in the minds of religious zealots. Modernity is all about adopting a critical attitude towards everything, applying human reason in matters of faith, politics, economics and in all aspects of life. The application of reason simply melts away, what Marx called, ‘all that is solid into air.’ It is the constant change that has to stay here staring at our faces to be understood. So what is really important to minimise the catastrophic consequences of radicalism is to radiate the minds of these people with not the symptoms of modernity as symbolised by the West but to illuminate its real intellectual foundations. This way is the only way forward.
What is it that they miss? Well they miss the point that modernity is not just a conspiracy against Islam or modernity leads to moral decadence. This is a totally mis-understood phenomenon in the minds of religious zealots. Modernity is all about adopting a critical attitude towards everything, applying human reason in matters of faith, politics, economics and in all aspects of life. The application of reason simply melts away, what Marx called, ‘all that is solid into air.’ It is the constant change that has to stay here staring at our faces to be understood. So what is really important to minimise the catastrophic consequences of radicalism is to radiate the minds of these people with not the symptoms of modernity as symbolised by the West but to illuminate its real intellectual foundations. This way is the only way forward.
#998 Posted by dawa-i-dil on July 31, 2007 4:37:26 am
the problem is that...we have created fight with those people who freed half of Kashmir...this Azad kashmir was all captured by Mahsood tribe ...and other tribl people....
they are one of the bravest people living on the face of earth....
when British were ruling the whole indo pak..and half of the world...even then British made a pact with them..and not ruled upon them...
Russian like super power could not defeat them...
and US and NATO are unble to defeat them....
but due to our Baighairat generals...we have bombarbed our own people there..and in revenge..they have strted suicide bombing..yes..they also did some mstakes...but firing missiles on madrassas is unaccetable ..
and thats why we have burn the fire of hell..in all this tribal area..which has reached inside Islamabad also....
they are one of the bravest people living on the face of earth....
when British were ruling the whole indo pak..and half of the world...even then British made a pact with them..and not ruled upon them...
Russian like super power could not defeat them...
and US and NATO are unble to defeat them....
but due to our Baighairat generals...we have bombarbed our own people there..and in revenge..they have strted suicide bombing..yes..they also did some mstakes...but firing missiles on madrassas is unaccetable ..
and thats why we have burn the fire of hell..in all this tribal area..which has reached inside Islamabad also....
#997 Posted by dawa-i-dil on July 31, 2007 4:36:44 am
in the early days...he started to change the religious axis of pakistan....
his first picture was..in front of PM house with small dog in his hand....to show people he is very moderate....
he lived in Turkey..so he fisrt declared that his most beloved personality is Kamal Attaturk...so..he wanted to transform pakistan into Turkey..and considered himself as Attaturk of Pakistan....
but thanks god...the religious masses of pakistan were so strong that...despite of his 8 years ..efforts..he could not change the pakistan into secular Turkey..and also infleunced the Army to be like Turkish Natinal Army..but he also failed in this regard...
though ..in these efforts..he made enormous losses to whole Pakistan idelogical axis..with a lot of anarchy and suicide bombings...and reactionary efforts of Lal Masjid..etc....
On Basant ..in 6 years..full time ...Baighairti...Shabab-o-Kabab mehfils..mujras..and other things...he himself was in Lahore on basant nights for 6 years..when atlast Supreme court put a complete ban on Basant....
He also tried to secularize the Army by regular basis musicaol concerts in every garrison and Abrar ..and other were invited on night dinners...there..still today....while Zia ul haq..never allowed that...
In his foolish thinking that iNdia will compromise on Kashmir..he turned whole pakistan media into indian culture..Meera going there..there singers and actors..and film stars coming here....but the Indians shown him boots on Kashmir issue..no dialogue at all...
he ordered the music classes in Punjab university..although students protested against that..but his nasha of enlightened moderation was overwhelming him...
PTV ..and other private channels are so much that sometimes they beat even indian channels in nudity and baighairti ..but no check from government at all....
these all are the fruits of this Dictator era...
his first picture was..in front of PM house with small dog in his hand....to show people he is very moderate....
he lived in Turkey..so he fisrt declared that his most beloved personality is Kamal Attaturk...so..he wanted to transform pakistan into Turkey..and considered himself as Attaturk of Pakistan....
but thanks god...the religious masses of pakistan were so strong that...despite of his 8 years ..efforts..he could not change the pakistan into secular Turkey..and also infleunced the Army to be like Turkish Natinal Army..but he also failed in this regard...
though ..in these efforts..he made enormous losses to whole Pakistan idelogical axis..with a lot of anarchy and suicide bombings...and reactionary efforts of Lal Masjid..etc....
On Basant ..in 6 years..full time ...Baighairti...Shabab-o-Kabab mehfils..mujras..and other things...he himself was in Lahore on basant nights for 6 years..when atlast Supreme court put a complete ban on Basant....
He also tried to secularize the Army by regular basis musicaol concerts in every garrison and Abrar ..and other were invited on night dinners...there..still today....while Zia ul haq..never allowed that...
In his foolish thinking that iNdia will compromise on Kashmir..he turned whole pakistan media into indian culture..Meera going there..there singers and actors..and film stars coming here....but the Indians shown him boots on Kashmir issue..no dialogue at all...
he ordered the music classes in Punjab university..although students protested against that..but his nasha of enlightened moderation was overwhelming him...
PTV ..and other private channels are so much that sometimes they beat even indian channels in nudity and baighairti ..but no check from government at all....
these all are the fruits of this Dictator era...
#996 Posted by dawa-i-dil on July 31, 2007 4:35:42 am
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#995 Posted by dawa-i-dil on July 31, 2007 4:34:21 am
These bloody .....broke the country...made pakistan..and heroin state..gave waters of 3 rivers to pakistan....and atlast..made the whole country ..in the burning fire of suicide attacks.....
these lanti...harami..generals ..consider themselves above every law..and rule and regulations.....
they have created a state within a state in pakistan....
there budget is never presented in National Assembly or Senate.....the most highest bodies of pakistan....
Nobody knows where the 60% of GDP go......
Minerva...come and look at he castle or palace of Lahore Corp Commander in Defence area...at night...1000's of bulbs glow..on his palace..who is he ...a soldier ..whose job is to defend country..but these baighairat kuttai....looted the money for thier own luxuries....
go and see ..how these Baighairat generals go in thier precious cars to have golf match in evening.....like they have conquered Kashmir.....
go and see..how these bloody general's wives...go to Cavalary..and Liberty market.. ...for shopping in offical cars....like they are queens of pakistan...bah.... lanti
in same Lahore..people have not pure water to drink..the patients are dying as they have no medicine..and these harami generals are enjoying the Pakistan money for thier badmashi...drunkards kuttai ........
for 60 years...they have made pakistan...the most corrupt...and beggar country....of the world...
these baighairat generals... ...DHA princes..and land mafia generals..are now...on the way..to eat whole Gwadar lands..in thier greed.....
These lanti generals ..consider themselves as very superior ...and call us " bloody civilians" ..lanti na ho tau......
what they have given to pakistan in 60 years..except..the kicking off the elected govermnets of 150 millions...or gallows to elected PM ..etc....
in my eyes..the only solution is...to have gallows...be constructed in Islamabad Abpara Chowk..bring all these baighairat generals ..to that..place..and sentence them to death..in front of all nation.....thats the only solution left...if we want to get rid of this cancer...
these lanti...harami..generals ..consider themselves above every law..and rule and regulations.....
they have created a state within a state in pakistan....
there budget is never presented in National Assembly or Senate.....the most highest bodies of pakistan....
Nobody knows where the 60% of GDP go......
Minerva...come and look at he castle or palace of Lahore Corp Commander in Defence area...at night...1000's of bulbs glow..on his palace..who is he ...a soldier ..whose job is to defend country..but these baighairat kuttai....looted the money for thier own luxuries....
go and see ..how these Baighairat generals go in thier precious cars to have golf match in evening.....like they have conquered Kashmir.....
go and see..how these bloody general's wives...go to Cavalary..and Liberty market.. ...for shopping in offical cars....like they are queens of pakistan...bah.... lanti
in same Lahore..people have not pure water to drink..the patients are dying as they have no medicine..and these harami generals are enjoying the Pakistan money for thier badmashi...drunkards kuttai ........
for 60 years...they have made pakistan...the most corrupt...and beggar country....of the world...
these baighairat generals... ...DHA princes..and land mafia generals..are now...on the way..to eat whole Gwadar lands..in thier greed.....
These lanti generals ..consider themselves as very superior ...and call us " bloody civilians" ..lanti na ho tau......
what they have given to pakistan in 60 years..except..the kicking off the elected govermnets of 150 millions...or gallows to elected PM ..etc....
in my eyes..the only solution is...to have gallows...be constructed in Islamabad Abpara Chowk..bring all these baighairat generals ..to that..place..and sentence them to death..in front of all nation.....thats the only solution left...if we want to get rid of this cancer...
#994 Posted by dawa-i-dil on July 31, 2007 4:33:31 am
An elected leader of 15 crore people declined 5 phone calls of US President...as he knew...if he will not disobey him...2/3 majority in National Assembly against him..will kick him out from PM seat....
While this baighairat general...about which Clinton ..was not willing to shake hands with him...on eve of 11 september 2001..laid down his all weapons on his bed when he listened tothe 3rd level secretary of US ...lanat on him....
is this the respect of a nuclear and missile state....can an elected leader do that.....without taking into consideration his cabinet..NA ..Senate...and pals like Saudia..Emirates..and China etc....
just as this baihghairat Dictaor got a golden chance to "Legetamize" his millitary rule..in eyes of US and West....and for his seat...he pushed the whole pakistan..in fire and hell...of that war..which was not actually of pakistan....and accepted every thing they demanded..shame on him.....
can an elected goverment do that..it is answerable to 10's of institution..this Dictaor was not answerable to anyone....
and plz..dont give me psuedo threats of US attackilng pakistan and taking her to cave era or stone age like crap.....only dictators having no public support fear from these childish threats...not any elected government of 150 millions......
While this baighairat general...about which Clinton ..was not willing to shake hands with him...on eve of 11 september 2001..laid down his all weapons on his bed when he listened tothe 3rd level secretary of US ...lanat on him....
is this the respect of a nuclear and missile state....can an elected leader do that.....without taking into consideration his cabinet..NA ..Senate...and pals like Saudia..Emirates..and China etc....
just as this baihghairat Dictaor got a golden chance to "Legetamize" his millitary rule..in eyes of US and West....and for his seat...he pushed the whole pakistan..in fire and hell...of that war..which was not actually of pakistan....and accepted every thing they demanded..shame on him.....
can an elected goverment do that..it is answerable to 10's of institution..this Dictaor was not answerable to anyone....
and plz..dont give me psuedo threats of US attackilng pakistan and taking her to cave era or stone age like crap.....only dictators having no public support fear from these childish threats...not any elected government of 150 millions......
#993 Posted by dawa-i-dil on July 31, 2007 4:32:58 am
Do you not know this simple fact that newton's 3rd Law..is more applicable to our social life rather than Physics...
do you not know..what this Baighairat general did in 8 years to change the ideological islamic axis of pakistan....
nobody wants cave vesrion of jahil taliban type islam in Pakistan...but is it means that you start Sharab-o-Kabab mehfils..in every nook and corner of the country... semi nude Marathon races...the cable dish atmosphere... ..indian kanjar culture...the indo pak blend of film and drama industry...music cocerts in army areas in whole Pakistan...where these Baighairat generals...having drinks in hands....dance with the singers.....
* do you not know what is happening in pakistan in whole this dictator era....the Basant ....and mujras..and chaklas ...stage dances.....and brothels....where were they leading to pakistan....
Thjis baighairat general....asked for Imam-e-Kaaba ...last few months..when the whole country stood with CJ of Pakistan..why not he remebered to have one more Marathon Race...with logo Dor mairai Lahore.....why he invited Imam-e-Kaaba..and start giving proofs of his entering the Khana Kaaba and on his roof....
can you change the religious axis of pakistan on the name of so called Enlightened Moderation.....can people will accept all these things....
will they not react....before this Dictator..where were all talibans...when they actualy ruling in Afghanistan..therewas no talbinization in whole pakistan..and when they are not actually n the scene..suddenly..this Talbinization ..reached inside Islamabad...why ???????
When you try to change the mindset of traditions..then be ready to face the music also....
do you not know..what this Baighairat general did in 8 years to change the ideological islamic axis of pakistan....
nobody wants cave vesrion of jahil taliban type islam in Pakistan...but is it means that you start Sharab-o-Kabab mehfils..in every nook and corner of the country... semi nude Marathon races...the cable dish atmosphere... ..indian kanjar culture...the indo pak blend of film and drama industry...music cocerts in army areas in whole Pakistan...where these Baighairat generals...having drinks in hands....dance with the singers.....
* do you not know what is happening in pakistan in whole this dictator era....the Basant ....and mujras..and chaklas ...stage dances.....and brothels....where were they leading to pakistan....
Thjis baighairat general....asked for Imam-e-Kaaba ...last few months..when the whole country stood with CJ of Pakistan..why not he remebered to have one more Marathon Race...with logo Dor mairai Lahore.....why he invited Imam-e-Kaaba..and start giving proofs of his entering the Khana Kaaba and on his roof....
can you change the religious axis of pakistan on the name of so called Enlightened Moderation.....can people will accept all these things....
will they not react....before this Dictator..where were all talibans...when they actualy ruling in Afghanistan..therewas no talbinization in whole pakistan..and when they are not actually n the scene..suddenly..this Talbinization ..reached inside Islamabad...why ???????
When you try to change the mindset of traditions..then be ready to face the music also....
#992 Posted by dawa-i-dil on July 31, 2007 4:32:17 am
You said that Lal Masjid was a drama and threat of islamic millitants....
hahahah....
*do you know...the ISI HQ is about 200 or 400 yards from the Lal Mosque....
* the petrol bombs...rocket launchers...gas masks..accumulated to this mosque in invisble mode...i think.....
* the ISI personals were drinkinng daru ..and enjoying soota of powder wali cigaratte when all arms were going in.....
* is it possible that..inside heart of a capital..and adjacent to ISI HQ....the dangerous arms keep on gathering....
* The baighairat general and his bloody baihgat generals ka tola ...instteadof using IB..MI..and ISI for national security..were using them to gather funny and ridiculous....proofs of Chef Justice inside house photographs..bugging the 19 SC judges...phone tapping...and threatening them with pressures.....Lanat on them...is in UK or USA..can you think..the government can do such dirty things....
* bugging of all High Courts ..and judges housese so that they cnnot unfold..the Chor Bazari..of the government..and black mail them...lanat on all the Baighatrs general's Tola again....
*when secret agents are on phone tapping of judges...can they know..wht is happening inside the heart of capital...in a place which is already famous for tensive speeches and vogorousss elements....
*who supported Ghazi brothers for 20 years...were all armed forces were not with them...now they have become the terrorists....
* i am against their implementation ways..but what they are saying...is 100% right..do you not know..what is going on in the name of enlightened Moderation..are you so unaware of that...Aunti Shameem...regulars customers were many Federal Secreatries..and 2 Ministers....and police invited the girls to stop that..as they said ..we are helpless due to government pressure..i am aginst the way the girls raided..but its not the duty of law enforcement agencies to stop these things..tell me...
hahahah....
*do you know...the ISI HQ is about 200 or 400 yards from the Lal Mosque....
* the petrol bombs...rocket launchers...gas masks..accumulated to this mosque in invisble mode...i think.....
* the ISI personals were drinkinng daru ..and enjoying soota of powder wali cigaratte when all arms were going in.....
* is it possible that..inside heart of a capital..and adjacent to ISI HQ....the dangerous arms keep on gathering....
* The baighairat general and his bloody baihgat generals ka tola ...instteadof using IB..MI..and ISI for national security..were using them to gather funny and ridiculous....proofs of Chef Justice inside house photographs..bugging the 19 SC judges...phone tapping...and threatening them with pressures.....Lanat on them...is in UK or USA..can you think..the government can do such dirty things....
* bugging of all High Courts ..and judges housese so that they cnnot unfold..the Chor Bazari..of the government..and black mail them...lanat on all the Baighatrs general's Tola again....
*when secret agents are on phone tapping of judges...can they know..wht is happening inside the heart of capital...in a place which is already famous for tensive speeches and vogorousss elements....
*who supported Ghazi brothers for 20 years...were all armed forces were not with them...now they have become the terrorists....
* i am against their implementation ways..but what they are saying...is 100% right..do you not know..what is going on in the name of enlightened Moderation..are you so unaware of that...Aunti Shameem...regulars customers were many Federal Secreatries..and 2 Ministers....and police invited the girls to stop that..as they said ..we are helpless due to government pressure..i am aginst the way the girls raided..but its not the duty of law enforcement agencies to stop these things..tell me...
#991 Posted by nasah on July 26, 2007 7:20:24 pm
In my view way one of the surest ways to prevent more Lal Masjids will be exactly what some of the smartest personnel of PTV did to that bearded Mualla Aziz on prine time -- interviewed him in Burqa on national TV teaching the the PTV audience -- not how to give birth to an Islamist militant without a tear -- but how to wear Burqa over a beard with poise and piety -- and still be taken seriously.
I tip my hat for the PTV staff for doing world’s most creative interviewing on PTV.
I tip my hat for the PTV staff for doing world’s most creative interviewing on PTV.
#990 Posted by Al_Bundy on July 23, 2007 8:33:38 pm
An article in an online Arabic Insternational Paper (English Edition); author's got some good points
http://www.asharq-e.com/news.asp?section=2&id=9654
Today in Pakistan
22/07/2007
Hussein Shobokshi
After the dust has settled, gunfire sounds abated and bodies buried following the siege of the Red Mosque in Pakistan, it might be useful to contemplate deeply the conditions of this large Islamic country and how it has transformed into a hotbed of corruption and extremism.
Pakistan was just a project of a country for the Muslims in the Indian subcontinent. But firstly, this idea was founded upon secular and economic bases, which soon evaporated and vanished vis-à-vis the military coup d'états and corrupt regimes. The most dangerous era of Pakistan’s contemporary history, however, is that between Zulfikar Ali Bhutto and Mohammed Zia ul Haq, when state institutions, which Bhutto sought to establish, were destroyed at the hands of Zia ul Haq, as he allowed the extremist ideology to proliferate and penetrate, and further strengthened the military institution at the expense of civil institutions, creating a favorable climate for corruption. Subsequently, Pakistan transformed into a breeding ground for nepotism and was cited as an example of corruption and included on the lists of corrupt states. Without doubt, the successive governments, which came to power after Zia ul Haq, fell into this quagmire.
What has happened in Pakistan may be full of lessons for what could afflict more than one Arab state, particularly in view of the abominable extremism of Islamist groups, a large number of which have become hard-line, and the judiciary that collapsed before the exacerbation of corruption and despotism of military rulers. Meanwhile, we cannot overlook drawing comparisons between India and Pakistan, whereby India created a dazzling political system and reaped the fruits of stability that was boosted by an economic growth approximating a miracle.
Pakistan should have followed a development approach to concern itself with internal issues rather than devote itself to the Kashmir cause for example, in which millions of dollars were spent and scores of people were killed. This cause is not of great significance because Indian Muslims themselves enjoy good and safe conditions. For instance, the Indian president and India’s richest businessman [Azim Premji] are Muslims amongst others. Therefore, if stability and security were maintained in Kashmir without foreign intervention, it would become an active player in the homeland.
In fact, the tremendous collapse that afflicted Pakistan and turned its provinces into disputing statelets, some of which are out of control, should be taken into consideration and its consequences should be deliberated upon. Therefore, if the Pakistani disease becomes worse, it will lead to the collapse of the Pakistani government and army that is being penetrated by radical fundamentalism and Pakistan will be transformed into a lifeless jungle.
Hussein Shobokshi
A Businessman and prominent columnist. Mr. Shobokshi hosts the weekly current affairs program Al Takreer on Al Arabiya, and in 1995, he was chosen as one of the "Global Leaders for Tomorrow" by the World Economic Forum. He received his B.A. in Political Science and Management from the University of Tulsa.
http://www.asharq-e.com/news.asp?section=2&id=9654
Today in Pakistan
22/07/2007
Hussein Shobokshi
After the dust has settled, gunfire sounds abated and bodies buried following the siege of the Red Mosque in Pakistan, it might be useful to contemplate deeply the conditions of this large Islamic country and how it has transformed into a hotbed of corruption and extremism.
Pakistan was just a project of a country for the Muslims in the Indian subcontinent. But firstly, this idea was founded upon secular and economic bases, which soon evaporated and vanished vis-à-vis the military coup d'états and corrupt regimes. The most dangerous era of Pakistan’s contemporary history, however, is that between Zulfikar Ali Bhutto and Mohammed Zia ul Haq, when state institutions, which Bhutto sought to establish, were destroyed at the hands of Zia ul Haq, as he allowed the extremist ideology to proliferate and penetrate, and further strengthened the military institution at the expense of civil institutions, creating a favorable climate for corruption. Subsequently, Pakistan transformed into a breeding ground for nepotism and was cited as an example of corruption and included on the lists of corrupt states. Without doubt, the successive governments, which came to power after Zia ul Haq, fell into this quagmire.
What has happened in Pakistan may be full of lessons for what could afflict more than one Arab state, particularly in view of the abominable extremism of Islamist groups, a large number of which have become hard-line, and the judiciary that collapsed before the exacerbation of corruption and despotism of military rulers. Meanwhile, we cannot overlook drawing comparisons between India and Pakistan, whereby India created a dazzling political system and reaped the fruits of stability that was boosted by an economic growth approximating a miracle.
Pakistan should have followed a development approach to concern itself with internal issues rather than devote itself to the Kashmir cause for example, in which millions of dollars were spent and scores of people were killed. This cause is not of great significance because Indian Muslims themselves enjoy good and safe conditions. For instance, the Indian president and India’s richest businessman [Azim Premji] are Muslims amongst others. Therefore, if stability and security were maintained in Kashmir without foreign intervention, it would become an active player in the homeland.
In fact, the tremendous collapse that afflicted Pakistan and turned its provinces into disputing statelets, some of which are out of control, should be taken into consideration and its consequences should be deliberated upon. Therefore, if the Pakistani disease becomes worse, it will lead to the collapse of the Pakistani government and army that is being penetrated by radical fundamentalism and Pakistan will be transformed into a lifeless jungle.
Hussein Shobokshi
A Businessman and prominent columnist. Mr. Shobokshi hosts the weekly current affairs program Al Takreer on Al Arabiya, and in 1995, he was chosen as one of the "Global Leaders for Tomorrow" by the World Economic Forum. He received his B.A. in Political Science and Management from the University of Tulsa.
#989 Posted by Al_Bundy on July 23, 2007 8:26:40 pm
An almost honest (with spin) article by a Pakistani writer in a Pakistani paper
http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=65516
Bleeding Pakistan
By Anees Jillani
I probably have spent all my life pleading with the relevant quarters not to support militancy, whether directed towards our eastern or western neighbour. However, I have always given a 'sermon' about bleeding the Indians and the doctrine of strategic depth when it came to supporting the Taliban in Afghanistan. India did not really bleed in the nineties and early part of this decade, except that the Muslims in the Indian-held Kashmir and the foreign mujahideen waging a jihad did; the Indian defence forces nevertheless definitely also incurred a cost, both financial and a substantial human loss. A few major bomb blasts in Mumbai and Delhi also resulted in extensive damage. While the Indians bled we were not spared either and had our own share of bomb blasts coinciding with the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and continuing till date. In fact, we also experienced something that the Indians did not: sectarian violence that led the factions to even kill worshippers in mosques while praying.
We may blame 9/11 for turning the tables but things had started to deteriorate prior to that. The withdrawal from the Kargil heights in 1999 was seen by many in the Indian-held Kashmir as a great betrayal and broke the back of the freedom movement that was already experiencing immense difficulties. However, 9/11 forced Pakistan to discontinue `its moral, diplomatic and political support to the freedom fighters of Kashmir'. The attack on the Indian Parliament and the consequent belligerent reaction resulted in President Musharraf making his famous January 2002 speech renouncing and denouncing all support to terrorist outfits. Several mujahideen organisations were banned following that speech.
There is no turning back and it has been our continuous fate to bleed since. The freedom fighters and the mujahideen have apparently decided to first free themselves and us from the clutches of the American sponsored rulers before turning their attention to neighbouring states. Most of these outfits have an Islamic orientation and thus also inclined to attack Shiites. The situation is thus chaotic, to say the least as the unemployed freedom fighters are constantly looking for excuses to hit at the state while the Taliban on our western borders are consolidating themselves in the tribal areas and also practice target shooting on our troops.
The most ironical part of this whole development is the sizeable support that these militants enjoy throughout Pakistan, particularly in most parts of the Frontier Province and the tribal areas. It is thus almost a `catch-22' situation in that any move to crush the militants results in gearing more public sympathy for them. The fact that the whole exercise to oppose the Islamic militants is widely seen as an American sponsored ploy does not help matters.
The Lal Masjid fiasco must be seen in light of the above context. The Indians experienced such sieges a number of times in the Indian-held Kashmir. It was now our turn to bleed. Not everybody can operate a sub-machine gun as competently and professionally as the militants did at the Lal Masjid. They were obviously trained. Where were they trained? And by whom?
Pakistan also remains one of those few countries left where one can buy machine guns, grenades and anti-air craft guns especially from the tribal areas and even from rest of Pakistan as easily if one was purchasing detergents. Our intelligence agencies most of the time know the minutest details about the personal lives of our politicians and other relevant personalities, particularly those opposed to the rulers, but cannot seem to find out how sophisticated arms reached the mosque and the madressahs. No one could even tell till the end about the estimated number of militants, students, children and women holed-up in the mosque. This is nothing short of shocking and a shame as the crisis did not erupt suddenly and had been brewing since January this year. What were our agencies and the interior ministry personnel doing all this time?
It is for history and the public to judge as to how the crisis was handled. However, it became obvious to all that the country has no force and mechanism to deal with such situations. There are special forces constituted to control such eventualities in other countries. Special committees or task forces are automatically convened in such situations. We had none and the government did not even bother to call a meeting of the National Security Council in the midst of such an embarrassing quandary. We ended up doing what we always do in such situations: rely on the military. The civilians were nowhere in the picture.
The prime minister mercifully was not on a foreign tour but the interior minister was in Rome to advise the Afghans about improving law and order in their country, while the interior secretary was in Delhi to jointly control terrorism with the Indians. It did not matter that these two key personnel of the interior ministry were not in the country.
The army is not trained to conduct such rescue missions. Patience is the name of the game in such situations while the army usually employs brute power, coupled with tactics, to crush the enemy and this is exactly what we eventually witnessed. It is not the job of the army to negotiate; however, the terms of reference for such assignments in our country are inter-mingled anyway as almost one-third of our top-most diplomats posted abroad are former military generals.
There were no professionals available to negotiate on the government's behalf and the president of the ruling party ended up being the top negotiator. The militants within the Lal mosque till the end kept complaining that they had a hard time understanding Chaudhry Shujaat on the mega-phone and asked him to negotiate face to face; they should have known better. There was no one willing and available to represent the Government of Pakistan in front of these talibs, most of whom were probably in their twenties.
The irony is that nothing has changed even after this bitter experience. The whole world was being told for the past five years that the western media was unnecessarily maligning the madressahs that were rendering immense service. The Americans were rolling in millions of dollars to institutionalise madressahs and improve their system of functioning and they were led to believe that their dollars had turned these religious schools into nothing less than regular high schools in California. However, the fact that a school in the capital of Pakistan right under the noses of our rulers and intelligence agencies was armed to the teeth goes to show the level of inefficiency of our institutions.
The problem is that the world may like to write us off and may avoid us as if we have the plague. But we remain one of the major countries in terms of population and export of terrorism if even a small segment of the populace could prove to be nightmarish for the world. And what are those opposed to militancy and freedom fighting supposed to do in these circumstances? There may be millions in this world who did not clap when the twin towers collapsed in New York but did not clap either when the Americans bombed Iraq and Afghanistan back to the Stone Age? Where do these folks fit in this era of `enlightened moderation?'
The writer is a freelance columnist. Email: aneesjillani@yahoo.com
http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=65516
Bleeding Pakistan
By Anees Jillani
I probably have spent all my life pleading with the relevant quarters not to support militancy, whether directed towards our eastern or western neighbour. However, I have always given a 'sermon' about bleeding the Indians and the doctrine of strategic depth when it came to supporting the Taliban in Afghanistan. India did not really bleed in the nineties and early part of this decade, except that the Muslims in the Indian-held Kashmir and the foreign mujahideen waging a jihad did; the Indian defence forces nevertheless definitely also incurred a cost, both financial and a substantial human loss. A few major bomb blasts in Mumbai and Delhi also resulted in extensive damage. While the Indians bled we were not spared either and had our own share of bomb blasts coinciding with the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and continuing till date. In fact, we also experienced something that the Indians did not: sectarian violence that led the factions to even kill worshippers in mosques while praying.
We may blame 9/11 for turning the tables but things had started to deteriorate prior to that. The withdrawal from the Kargil heights in 1999 was seen by many in the Indian-held Kashmir as a great betrayal and broke the back of the freedom movement that was already experiencing immense difficulties. However, 9/11 forced Pakistan to discontinue `its moral, diplomatic and political support to the freedom fighters of Kashmir'. The attack on the Indian Parliament and the consequent belligerent reaction resulted in President Musharraf making his famous January 2002 speech renouncing and denouncing all support to terrorist outfits. Several mujahideen organisations were banned following that speech.
There is no turning back and it has been our continuous fate to bleed since. The freedom fighters and the mujahideen have apparently decided to first free themselves and us from the clutches of the American sponsored rulers before turning their attention to neighbouring states. Most of these outfits have an Islamic orientation and thus also inclined to attack Shiites. The situation is thus chaotic, to say the least as the unemployed freedom fighters are constantly looking for excuses to hit at the state while the Taliban on our western borders are consolidating themselves in the tribal areas and also practice target shooting on our troops.
The most ironical part of this whole development is the sizeable support that these militants enjoy throughout Pakistan, particularly in most parts of the Frontier Province and the tribal areas. It is thus almost a `catch-22' situation in that any move to crush the militants results in gearing more public sympathy for them. The fact that the whole exercise to oppose the Islamic militants is widely seen as an American sponsored ploy does not help matters.
The Lal Masjid fiasco must be seen in light of the above context. The Indians experienced such sieges a number of times in the Indian-held Kashmir. It was now our turn to bleed. Not everybody can operate a sub-machine gun as competently and professionally as the militants did at the Lal Masjid. They were obviously trained. Where were they trained? And by whom?
Pakistan also remains one of those few countries left where one can buy machine guns, grenades and anti-air craft guns especially from the tribal areas and even from rest of Pakistan as easily if one was purchasing detergents. Our intelligence agencies most of the time know the minutest details about the personal lives of our politicians and other relevant personalities, particularly those opposed to the rulers, but cannot seem to find out how sophisticated arms reached the mosque and the madressahs. No one could even tell till the end about the estimated number of militants, students, children and women holed-up in the mosque. This is nothing short of shocking and a shame as the crisis did not erupt suddenly and had been brewing since January this year. What were our agencies and the interior ministry personnel doing all this time?
It is for history and the public to judge as to how the crisis was handled. However, it became obvious to all that the country has no force and mechanism to deal with such situations. There are special forces constituted to control such eventualities in other countries. Special committees or task forces are automatically convened in such situations. We had none and the government did not even bother to call a meeting of the National Security Council in the midst of such an embarrassing quandary. We ended up doing what we always do in such situations: rely on the military. The civilians were nowhere in the picture.
The prime minister mercifully was not on a foreign tour but the interior minister was in Rome to advise the Afghans about improving law and order in their country, while the interior secretary was in Delhi to jointly control terrorism with the Indians. It did not matter that these two key personnel of the interior ministry were not in the country.
The army is not trained to conduct such rescue missions. Patience is the name of the game in such situations while the army usually employs brute power, coupled with tactics, to crush the enemy and this is exactly what we eventually witnessed. It is not the job of the army to negotiate; however, the terms of reference for such assignments in our country are inter-mingled anyway as almost one-third of our top-most diplomats posted abroad are former military generals.
There were no professionals available to negotiate on the government's behalf and the president of the ruling party ended up being the top negotiator. The militants within the Lal mosque till the end kept complaining that they had a hard time understanding Chaudhry Shujaat on the mega-phone and asked him to negotiate face to face; they should have known better. There was no one willing and available to represent the Government of Pakistan in front of these talibs, most of whom were probably in their twenties.
The irony is that nothing has changed even after this bitter experience. The whole world was being told for the past five years that the western media was unnecessarily maligning the madressahs that were rendering immense service. The Americans were rolling in millions of dollars to institutionalise madressahs and improve their system of functioning and they were led to believe that their dollars had turned these religious schools into nothing less than regular high schools in California. However, the fact that a school in the capital of Pakistan right under the noses of our rulers and intelligence agencies was armed to the teeth goes to show the level of inefficiency of our institutions.
The problem is that the world may like to write us off and may avoid us as if we have the plague. But we remain one of the major countries in terms of population and export of terrorism if even a small segment of the populace could prove to be nightmarish for the world. And what are those opposed to militancy and freedom fighting supposed to do in these circumstances? There may be millions in this world who did not clap when the twin towers collapsed in New York but did not clap either when the Americans bombed Iraq and Afghanistan back to the Stone Age? Where do these folks fit in this era of `enlightened moderation?'
The writer is a freelance columnist. Email: aneesjillani@yahoo.com
