Preventing More Lal Masjids

I meant #800, not #100 below. Why the hell did chowk take away this second chance to review before publishing what you wrote?? :-(

#841 responds to Dost Mittar #100, btw.

Dost Mittar: You say I was referring to the criticism of Islam and not of terrorism or terrorists.

During WWII, millions of Japanese soldiers fought with fanatical zeal, scores of kamikaze pilots went on suicide mission, tens of millions of innocent people coming in their way were killed for the greater glory of their emperor Hiro Hito who was considered a sun-god in their religion Shintoism. Shintoism, along with Buddhism, was the official religion of Japan.

So how did they solve the problem after WWII?

a. By declaring Shintoism to be the cause of this violence, and therefore prohibiting its practice;
b. By declaring Shintoism and Buddhism to be the cause of this violence, and therefore prohibiting their practice; or
c. By introducing a democratic constitution that transferred power from militarists and priests to ordinary people, while leaving it for the people to practice their religion as before.

The answer is of course c. And Buddhism is considered a religion of peace (which it is, like all other religions - if practiced by ordinary people, not by those seeking to gain or retain political power like emperor HiroHito).

This point could easily be re-inforced by other examples in history from other religions including hinduism (e.g. the kali worshipping ghoondas who gave us the word "thug"). But if you reflect upon the Japanese example, you will I hope agree that this is enough for me to rest my case.

And this is why I consider all those who chose to equate Islam with mullah terrorists to be driven not by any logic or facts but by their own personal hatreds.

You write The only exception I can think of is Harimou and his rants also seem to be largely reserved not for dalits (or achoots as you people call them) but for reservations for the other backward castes in Tamil Nadu whom he derisively calls Masanmuthu. And some of us even sympathise his views to some extent.

Harimau has also noted that he considers gujerat murders of muslim families to be justified due to godhra murders of hindu passengers.

The question of quotas is a separate issue - one can debate its pros and cons. We need to draw the line on justifications presented for violence and lawlessness and negative stereotyping of any community.

Why should I discuss issues with arjun or harimau (I can exchange insults if I have time) even if I agree on some specific issue with them if they cross this line and condones murder of innocent people or ridicule of muslims or any other community of people?

Re: # 841

It's time to bring this topic to a close. Only two small points:

- I did not ask you to interact with arjun or anyone else.

- I did not suggest Japanese options 1 and 2; indeed I had suggested you over hamidm for any remedial action.

Will meet again, I am sure. :)

#838 Posted by GT,

GT I don't know if you are aware of my major difference with masadi. He completely rejects Muslim history, including Sunnah, and tries to read everything in the 'book' itself. That is not what Qura'an itself says. It says follow Allah AND His prophet. All the time, over and over. Everything is not in Qura'an as a day-to-day desk-manual. No book can do that. Qura'an provides clear hints. The ones whose hearts Allah lights up (that's from Qura'an as well) pick up those hints and take it on from there.

Those girls of Jamia Hafsa who bravely faced nerve gas, bullets and mortars, and never surrendered, were neither zombies nor brain-washed. They were as much or less so as were the original Muhajireen. They died in Allah's path and considered it their honour, as did their next of kin.

You and hamidm carefully read masadi because he kind of says what you want to hear. That is not Islam. Islam is Qura'an PLUS Mohammad (and by extension, his closest Companions). You have just seen a display of its power.

Killing the scheming and proselytizing apostates is one of those things. It is vague in the Qura'an, but that is what Muhammad did himself, and practically what Abu Bakr spent most of his 2 year tenure in doing.

Only once that was done, Umar established the Islamic empire without irritants. Without Abu Bakr's timely action against apostates, it would not have been possible.

Is someone here telling me Abu Bak'r went against the teachings of Qura'an?

#837 Posted by echoboom

WHY ARE YOU WASTING MY TIME, GT?

Well echo:

This Haneef guy is a relative of the guy who drove a car into Glasgow airport. He is a doctor and he may well have been a part of the plan. He was arrested in Australia. But the Australians have not been able to prove his links with the terrorist plot. The judge granted him bail but the govt. revoked his visa. Hence, the guy is still in jail. The Indian govt. has demanded that Haneef be fairly treated. The Queensland premier has blamed the federal govt. for its actions. The left and right are all up in arms. Politics as usual and everything is fine. Haneef's wife is not too happy about matters, and if his one month old baby had been a couple of years older then she would have had to deal with his misery too. But that is not the purpose of this post.

I want you and all who are reading this post to consider the following title of an article in an Australian paper;

"Oz doctor's alleged terror links revealed in documents"

So what would you think? Well one would believe that finally the doctor's links with the terror plot have been revealed. You would go to your office and hold forth on doctors and terrorists and what not. But if you had some-time to read on you would notice the following in the article:

"Fresh details of Mohamed Haneef's links to UK terror suspects have been revealed in documents used by Immigration Minister Kevin Andrews to revoke the Indian doctor's visa."

So you would say, what about it GT? Why are you wasting my time? I would ask you to read a bit more carefully. Note it says that "..links to terror SUSPECTS..". Not "..links to the terror PLOT...". But we knew that there were links, there had to be, they were brothers after all!

The point is that many a times we are taken for a ride in this "global war on terror". And while we pay and die, many are laughing their way to the banks.

#834 Posted by zeemax

Zee,

I will let masadi deal with all of this. But it seems that people like me and hamid, who disagree a lot with masadi, read him more carefully. You have misinterpreted him a lot.

Anyway, you say:

"I say BS. Kill the proselytizing apostates now because that is an integral part of the Islamic system,..."

Fine, but it is not an integral part of the Koran. Even I know this, thanks to urstruly. Also, I do not buy your ".. the Islamic system..". I simply call it zeemax's Islamic system :)

#835 Posted by GT
Boom sahib?
a simple echo would do. thank you.

I am not aware of Haneef case, but I'm pretty sure the Indian Government would speak its mind....any people whose leaders can afford to go about in their national dress; not to make it a multicuNJURRal-event to the Goraa-ghar but as a purpose to irritate the Chitta-baboons, has my blessings.

Let us free our mind, our spirit, and our souls from the western baboons. Science, Technology, and "progress" has nothing whatsoever to do with behaving like a monkey, parrot, dog, mynaa, totaa, or an ass.

Are you not guys who invented Zero without an alien accent, dress, or food?

I'm wondering now how truthful Ghazi Abdul-Rasheed was.

He was asked what would happen if he was killed in the action. He had replied "Islamabad would become Baghdad".

Boom sahib:

Regarding the namak-slaves. You might want to see the Indian govt.'s response to the Australians over Haneef's case. Here is an editorial:

http://www.hindu.com/2007/07/17/stories/2007071755640800.htm

I remember, not a very long time ago, the Brits used to lecture the Indians on human rights in Kashmir. I think it is high time for the Indians to lecture Britain on Iraq.

#832 Posted by GT,

Well, certainly masadi is entitled to his opinions, but they don't make any sense. The matter is whether it is a crime or not. Extent of punishment is secondary.

To masadi, US Elite are criminals and must be neutralized. To me, US Elite are just punks who will be neutralized anyway in due course but apostates and the enemies of Islam within Islam are a bigger threat.

Masadi says the former have a negative impact here and now and must be taken to task, while apostates are not a threat and let 'God deal with them'. I say BS. Kill the proselytizing apostates now because that is an integral part of the Islamic system, and let God decide whether there was any injustice involved in the act by those passing that verdict.

That is why I call masadi a hypocrite. He considers a petty transitional matter like usurping global resources a crime, which all empires do in their time, while condones an attack on the entire Islamic faith as personal judgment and advocates looking in the other direction.

Re#827 philospher,

"but without a social system how would you preserve those islamic values which differentiate islam from other systems or the values that islam so dearly holds.."

No one is disputing that Islam is a socio-political system. But, why would this socio-political system need to resort to coercion to respond to criticism and dissent?

" don't know how Masadi would deal with irshad manji, asra nomani ......"
My guess is that he would let them have their say and respond with his own arguments. Why resort to coercion?

"how would his ''islam'' deal with the supporter of same sex marriage?? what if someone starts supporting incest and this kind of stuff?"

Such behaviour can remain outlawed without resorting to coercion against people who are merely arguing for it. Their arguments can be defeated by counter-arguments - not violence.

Reply to # 828 by zeemax;

Zee;

You guys have raised several questions for masadi to answer and I am sure he will deal with them. But he has interacted here for quite sometime and since his interacts are public, I believe I have the right to comment on an issue which you raise and which I find disturbing.

You say he is a hypocrite.

And then go on to say: "He wants the US Elite fixed in the here and now, and the apostates in the hereafter, for some curious reason." What masadi has been maintaining throughout is that the Koran does not say that apostates should be killed. IT IS MASADI'S opinion THAT APOSTATES SHOULD NOT BE KILLED, JUST AS IT HIS opinion THAT THE US ELITE BE FIXED. Moreover, I have not seen any post of masadi where he says that the US elites should be killed. So, where is the hypocricy zee?

p.s. About the Abdul Aziz thing. Of course, I know that the rumour is false. What I wanted to know is whether others have heard it too.

Re:#828 Posted by zeemax

(((But no. He wants the US Elite fixed in the here and now, and the apostates in the hereafter, for some curious reason.)))

The reason is obvious and that is the colonized unconscious. We muslim have been apologetic on islam's concept of divorce before divorce became the most LIBERATING concept in the west. Now we are apologetic about polygamy clearing ignoring the fact that islam is the only religion which puts an upper limit onn polygamy. These other religions have convenient reform movements that they can hide behind and we are left explaining why islam is 'misogynist'.

How can you change the core principles of a philosophy on the basis of overly generalized and so called ,broader underlying' purposes?

Some liberaloon islamic feminist have been trying to derive out new meanings from ''qawaam'' and ''daraba''. This is nothing but exercise in futilit. The philosophy of Islam is plainly clear on this issue and that is it believes in a patriarichal family system.

Now liberaloon have been trying to ''deconstruct'' this language to derive out some more desirable meanings suited to their oon minds and letting it is nothing but a worst kind of apostasy.
I don't give any shit about this liberaloonism any more. My religion is source of guidance and moralities for me no matter how they look like to 'oon' minds.

Attack was on People's Party reception camp for CJ convention ...

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