Preventing More Lal Masjids

Re: # 40

THE RED LINE.

Kaal:

Great! So new perspectives are required on every front. For example:

Who are the Indians fighting? The Pakistani military or the `Shariatists`? Is the enemy`s enemy one`s friend? Is Fazalur Rehman Khalil for the Shariat or is he a puppet of the military? ``The line``, my dear kaal, is going to redefine things and make things clearer. You know it helps to take sides.

A long time back I had claimed that the `freedom fighters` in kashmir are local dons who change their support from time to time. Are such issues now going to be a little bit clearer because the line has been drawn? Is a Gandhian going to support the Shariatist? Is Manto right after all?

Which side are you going to be on, kaal? .... Bush`s line has gone for a six. The new line is the `Red Line` (after Lal Masjid) ;-)

Dear Dr Hoodbhoy

Thanks for this thought provoking analysis for the reasoning behind misogyny in Pakistan. I differ with you regarding the following:

1. At the heart of this divide is a justice and power issue. There is resentment and anger towards the well-off. It comes out as an issue between what is Islamic and what is un Islamic, but at the heart of it is severe anger at how society`s elites live vs. the less well off. They have oversimplified it to mean that people who appear westernized are more successful than those who do not appear westernized. This is a mis interpretation of facts and stems from the complete lack of information about their own history.
2. Ignorance about the truth wrt. Islamic history and women`s freedom and role.
3. Misinterpretation that the prophet and followers were anti women`s freedom.


The only solution is a re-investigation of history and recasting of what it means to be Muslim. Unfortunately, the media has been unable to meet the challenge effectively. Once again, the lack of knowledge among Muslims about Islam/history and people of Islam, is to blame. Again, the blasphemy laws don`t help, they stifle open debate. Just a little fresh air has revealed such terrible skeletons in the cupboard, imagine if the lies were all exposed? The emotional reaction to the lies that have been told to Muslims for decades would shake the foundations of this country.

#36 by bluegaze,

The original Islam`s theory is heavily communist i.e. no ultimate ownership of land or wealth, with the difference it is bestowed with Allah instead of the State. I.e. before Usman, which is why he was besieged and killed.

I think the burkha jihadi wasn`t trying to escape. He was trying to slip out and meet his handlers. Once he was arrested by a cop too low down the food chain to be in on the conspiracy, the paki government had to take him in.

#42 by zeemax on July 10, 2007 1:37pm PT

Yes Zee. The delivery of mobile phone is done with an ulterior motive but not with an honest intention to negotiate.

I am baffled by the conflicting reports and therefore tried to read/see the news beyond the script coz I was following the events since the Operation was started.

Maulana Ghazi insurance was the company of women and children.

Mush govt`s comfort in the Operation is the complete blackout of the way the the 100+ inmates were killed. A mere statistic would NOT emote well with us but the real coverage of deaths would. We REALLY dont know the TRUE statistics of deaths, unfortuntely & how many were collateral deaths in taking the main head of Ghazi.

Re: # 48

Dear Saima Shah,

I liked your post # 48 because you point to the centrality of religion. # 36, by bluegaze highlights the problem of the leftist. That problem, in the context of our sub-continent, arises when one totally abstracts from religion. It is the codes set by myths (or religion if you may) that guide the lives of most in our region. Communication with people at large has to use religion as a medium to a large degree. We are not westerners and we have lost our materialistic interpretations a long time back in history, whether we like it or not.

A liberal cannot accept the blood-bath in Lal Masjid, given that many who pleaded for restraint were poor people who had relatives inside. You put it very well when you say that:

``At the heart of this divide is a justice and power issue. There is resentment and anger towards the well-off. It comes out as an issue between what is Islamic and what is un Islamic.``

But, unfortunately, the way things have turned out liberals may have to side with the killer dictator. They have to do their DUTY like Arjun in the Mahabharata. Irrespective of what hamid and manto are saying here, they know that the unrestrained bravado of the dictator was not moral.

But there is a way out. The CJ movement against the dictator has to challenge the dictator`s Lal Masjid actions on legal grounds. Legal grounds as provided for by the present Constitution of Pakistan. The Supreme Court, a couple of days back, had asked for restraint. The question posed by the CJ movement to the dictator should be very simple:

``Did you, Mr. Dictator, have a legal order to enter Lal Masjid?``

Maulana Ghazi`s insurance was the company of women and children.

There are many hues here.

The presence of the most wanted jihadi terrorist in the comany of the ex-PM reminds us of the phrase (abt the Mush govt):

`running with the hares and hunting with the hounds`.

mr hoodhboy - i very much appreciate your insightful analysis. the main problem i perceive with pakistani society (speaking as a member of the pakistani diaspora in the uk) is that people have too much time on their hands are always meddling in other people`s affairs. instead of concerting their efforts towards progress and hard work they look elsewhere and want to bring religion into absolutely every debate. success is possible in pakistan but it requires risk taking and hard sweat - the afghan refugees can vouch for that. instead pakistanis (the majority of them are stuck in fantasy land of bollywood movies and and ritual prayers to get them to janat, intermixed with that is getting a distant uncle to get u a promotion and finding a religious fault with your neighbours or just finding fault - that includes the men!) why cant pakistanis just live and let live and stop thinking they are the custodians of Islam for all humanity. my heart felt prayers are for pakistani society to mature and take itself (each and every one) seriously and be responsible for oneself first so that it can work towards building a strong civic society in every sense of the word. pakistanis are too obsessed with morality and want to police human thought, they fail to see the punishments they distribute are themselves crimes and are damaging the fabric of pakistani society. there are more mature and humane ways to go about improving pakistani society holistically, but because some people need the crutch of islam to justify everything, the holistic approach is probably not going to be embraced because some people just cant think outside the box; and that is mentally damaging for the nation at large.

cchoboom various

Dada welcome back....Now i understand why everbody was missing you.

Standard & Poor`s lowers Pak ratings

ERUM ZAIDI
KARACHI - The Standard & Poor’s, the US-Based ratings services downgraded PakistanÆs foreign and local currency ratings stance to stable from positive on Tuesday owing to growing concerns over the country’s worsening security environment and the risk of potential fiscal slippages.
The Standard & Poor said that it affirmed its ‘B+/B’ foreign currency and ‘BB/B’ local currency sovereign credit ratings on the Islamic Republic of Pakistan.
Agost Benard Standard & Poor’s credit analyst said in report that Pakistan’s political and security situation has deteriorated markedly in recent months. This period of increased uncertainty has been marked by violent social unrest relating to the removal of the country’s chief justice, Islamabad’s Red Mosque siege, and the latest assassination attempt on President Musharraf’s life addingááthe move back to a stable outlook reflects the diminished probability of a ratings upgrade in the near future.

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Manto # 44

Of course we know that, Manto :)

GT was suggesting that a real line in the sand has been drawn between liberals and Islamists. And that is probably true. But wanted to signal to GT that (1) it will take a little time to know where that new line is, and since, GT, I assumed, was an Indian, (2) that lines drawn within Pakistan may not (as they need not) look quite the same when viewed from India or outside. AS nationalists both of us respect the concept of a nation enough to recognize that important distinction.

---

GT, great to witness a new GT who takes sides!

Should you decide to remain a liberal and a secularist, and wish to offer moral/material support, my personal preference, for whatever little it is worth, would be to stay with Manto/HP combo here. Among political parties, MQM too would have been a choice for a secularist and a liberal, but don`t know if other Pakistanis can work with them...

Anyways, dear scholar, a friendly welcome to the world of imperfect solutions to decidedly very complex problems. :) :)

{``Lal Masjid underscores the danger of runaway religious radicalism in Pakistan. It calls for urgent and wide-ranging action.

That the crisis could have been averted is beyond doubt.``}

Pervez Sahib,
Good article and some sane advice. But, you are skirting the issue rather than boldly stating the obvious. The best way to prevent more Lal Masjids is to make sure that no more such structures are built or permanently occupied. When you unleash the monster of religious passions, it is rather hypocritical to assume that you can turn the valve off and the monster will go back to the tank obediently. Jinnah fanned the hatred and separation by exploiting the zeal, extremism, and misplaced loyalty that have always been barely suppressed among rational Muslims. Zia played the religious card to the maximum disadvantage of Pakistan, Islam, and human civilization. Americans exploited this religious extremism to further their goals in Indonesia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Soodi Arabia, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and even India.

The best way to preclude any more Lal Masjids is to install, cherish, and maintain true secularism, real democracy, and legitimate religious beliefs that proclaim individualism, liberty, diversity, tolerance, love, and compassion. Certainly, the two Islams of the late Mullah Ghazi and Mushy Mushy Muck Muck are both false and doomed to failure and eradication. Even the Islam of Jinnah has no place in our civilized world. Thanks for the opportunity to discuss this important subject.

Chowk, staff, PLEASE put an end to banning people like this.

Make a policy so people do not spam here, or whatever you can do....Let NO ONE post long endless articles here or in other ways interfere with the free flow of ideas. But please recognize that we have to deal with ideas first before we can deal with people.

That`s the whole point behind chowk`s existence, that`s its beauty, its real contribution! So please do something!

``>1,100 shrouds ordered: Edhi

ISLAMABAD: Renowned social worker Abdus Sattar Edhi said on Tuesday the government had asked him to prepare shrouds for 800 more bodies after already sending 300 to the Lal Masjid and Jamia Hafsa. Edhi termed the incident the worst of its kind in Pakistan. Edhi volunteers are carrying on their work to recover the bodies from the seminary and the mosque.