A Letter To President Musharraf

Musharraf ruined whatever he tried to do and I don't think I've hated anymore more than him but on Lal Masjid I'm with him.

All those who talk about hundreds that died, please realise that a military operation was the last option left for the govt. The ocupants of Lal Masjid had made life miserable for residents of the city and those of G-6 in particular.

In fact mullahs today are causing the greatest damage to the religion. At times I'm shocked to hear the kind of things they communicate to people during Friday sermons in mosques...and think of its effect on people who just go onto believe them. Lal Masjid was an extreme example of the same thing!!

you wrote this colum 1 year ago but consequences we r facing in our dear pakistan now in 2008.
You look like komal tarique of lahore who can predict various things like u

if i am buttering then dont mind but i must say that never heard a good healthy neither filled with animosty nor support I every single word. Have my respects in all regards.

Analysis of events in last two years can tell you quite a few things went wrong and there is tough time ahead. Pakistan is in danger. A small group which has exclusive rights and it has created negative feelings among people which will result in breaking of this society.

Please do something sensible. Maybe you can organize civil society. I wish I could do something sensible other than just writing.

Now who is responsible? Who has been at the helm of afairs for las 8 years.

Khalid

Analysis of events in last two years can tell you quite a few things went wrong and there is tough time ahead. Pakistan is in danger. A small group which has exclusive rights and it has created negative feelings among people which will result in breaking of this society.

Please do something sensible. Maybe you can organize civil society. I wish I could do something sensible other than just writing.

Now who is responsible? Who has been at the helm of afairs for las 8 years.

Khalid

You're all illiterates.

thanks hassan for the nice remarks..let us all Pakistanis use this energy for Pakistan and Ummah...ameen

Dear D-I-D:

Your posts are full of great emotional energy. Smart people channel this emotional energy to do something constructive.

I recommend you use this energy to create something within your viccinity. I cannot suggest you anything because I do not know your environment and circumstances. You should be the judge.

If you deeply look at great people in history you will find that every injustice gave them inner strength to fight and uproot injustices.

in the early days...he started to change the religious axis of pakistan....

his first picture was..in front of PM house with small dog in his hand....to show people he is very moderate....

he lived in Turkey..so he fisrt declared that his most beloved personality is Kamal Attaturk...so..he wanted to transform pakistan into Turkey..and considered himself as Attaturk of Pakistan....

but thanks god...the religious masses of pakistan were so strong that...despite of his 8 years ..efforts..he could not change the pakistan into secular Turkey..and also infleunced the Army to be like Turkish Natinal Army..but he also failed in this regard...


though ..in these efforts..he made enormous losses to whole Pakistan idelogical axis..with a lot of anarchy and suicide bombings...and reactionary efforts of Lal Masjid..etc....

On Basant ..in 6 years..full time ...Baighairti...Shabab-o-Kabab mehfils..mujras..and other things...he himself was in Lahore on basant nights for 6 years..when atlast Supreme court put a complete ban on Basant....

He also tried to secularize the Army by regular basis musicaol concerts in every garrison and Abrar ..and other were invited on night dinners...there..still today....while Zia ul haq..never allowed that...


In his foolish thinking that iNdia will compromise on Kashmir..he turned whole pakistan media into indian culture..Meera going there..there singers and actors..and film stars coming here....but the Indians shown him boots on Kashmir issue..no dialogue at all...


he ordered the music classes in Punjab university..although students protested against that..but his nasha of enlightened moderation was overwhelming him...


PTV ..and other private channels are so much that sometimes they beat even indian channels in nudity and baighairti ..but no check from government at all....

these all are the fruits of this Dictator era...

These bloody .....broke the country...made pakistan..and heroin state..gave waters of 3 rivers to pakistan....and atlast..made the whole country ..in the burning fire of suicide attacks.....

these lanti...harami..generals ..consider themselves above every law..and rule and regulations.....

they have created a state within a state in pakistan....

there budget is never presented in National Assembly or Senate.....the most highest bodies of pakistan....

Nobody knows where the 60% of GDP go......

Minerva...come and look at he castle or palace of Lahore Corp Commander in Defence area...at night...1000's of bulbs glow..on his palace..who is he ...a soldier ..whose job is to defend country..but these baighairat kuttai....looted the money for thier own luxuries....

go and see ..how these Baighairat generals go in thier precious cars to have golf match in evening.....like they have conquered Kashmir.....

go and see..how these bloody general's wives...go to Cavalary..and Liberty market.. ...for shopping in offical cars....like they are queens of pakistan...bah.... lanti

in same Lahore..people have not pure water to drink..the patients are dying as they have no medicine..and these harami generals are enjoying the Pakistan money for thier badmashi...drunkards kuttai ........

for 60 years...they have made pakistan...the most corrupt...and beggar country....of the world...

these baighairat generals... ...DHA princes..and land mafia generals..are now...on the way..to eat whole Gwadar lands..in thier greed.....

These lanti generals ..consider themselves as very superior ...and call us " bloody civilians" ..lanti na ho tau......

what they have given to pakistan in 60 years..except..the kicking off the elected govermnets of 150 millions...or gallows to elected PM ..etc....

in my eyes..the only solution is...to have gallows...be constructed in Islamabad Abpara Chowk..bring all these baighairat generals ..to that..place..and sentence them to death..in front of all nation.....thats the only solution left...if we want to get rid of this cancer...

An elected leader of 15 crore people declined 5 phone calls of US President...as he knew...if he will not disobey him...2/3 majority in National Assembly against him..will kick him out from PM seat....

While this baighairat general...about which Clinton ..was not willing to shake hands with him...on eve of 11 september 2001..laid down his all weapons on his bed when he listened tothe 3rd level secretary of US ...lanat on him....

is this the respect of a nuclear and missile state....can an elected leader do that.....without taking into consideration his cabinet..NA ..Senate...and pals like Saudia..Emirates..and China etc....


just as this baihghairat Dictaor got a golden chance to "Legetamize" his millitary rule..in eyes of US and West....and for his seat...he pushed the whole pakistan..in fire and hell...of that war..which was not actually of pakistan....and accepted every thing they demanded..shame on him.....

can an elected goverment do that..it is answerable to 10's of institution..this Dictaor was not answerable to anyone....

and plz..dont give me psuedo threats of US attackilng pakistan and taking her to cave era or stone age like crap.....only dictators having no public support fear from these childish threats...not any elected government of 150 millions......

Do you not know this simple fact that newton's 3rd Law..is more applicable to our social life rather than Physics...

do you not know..what this Baighairat general did in 8 years to change the ideological islamic axis of pakistan....

nobody wants cave vesrion of jahil taliban type islam in Pakistan...but is it means that you start Sharab-o-Kabab mehfils..in every nook and corner of the country... semi nude Marathon races...the cable dish atmosphere... ..indian kanjar culture...the indo pak blend of film and drama industry...music cocerts in army areas in whole Pakistan...where these Baighairat generals...having drinks in hands....dance with the singers.....


* do you not know what is happening in pakistan in whole this dictator era....the Basant ....and mujras..and chaklas ...stage dances.....and brothels....where were they leading to pakistan....

Thjis baighairat general....asked for Imam-e-Kaaba ...last few months..when the whole country stood with CJ of Pakistan..why not he remebered to have one more Marathon Race...with logo Dor mairai Lahore.....why he invited Imam-e-Kaaba..and start giving proofs of his entering the Khana Kaaba and on his roof....

can you change the religious axis of pakistan on the name of so called Enlightened Moderation.....can people will accept all these things....


will they not react....before this Dictator..where were all talibans...when they actualy ruling in Afghanistan..there was no talbinization in whole pakistan..and when they are not actually on the scene..suddenly..this Talbinization ..reached inside Islamabad...why ???????

When you try to change the mindset of traditions..then be ready to face the music also....

Many people said said that Lal Masjid was a drama and threat of islamic millitants....

hahahah....

*do you know...the ISI HQ is about 200 or 400 yards from the Lal Mosque....

* the petrol bombs...rocket launchers...gas masks..accumulated to this mosque in invisble mode...i think.....

* the ISI personals were drinkinng daru ..and enjoying soota of powder wali cigaratte when all arms were going in.....

* is it possible that..inside heart of a capital..and adjacent to ISI HQ....the dangerous arms keep on gathering....

* The baighairat general and his bloody baihgat generals ka tola ...instteadof using IB..MI..and ISI for national security..were using them to gather funny and ridiculous....proofs of Chef Justice inside house photographs..bugging the 19 SC judges...phone tapping...and threatening them with pressures.....Lanat on them...is in UK or USA..can you think..the government can do such dirty things....


* bugging of all High Courts ..and judges housese so that they cnnot unfold..the Chor Bazari..of the government..and black mail them...lanat on all the Baighatrs general's Tola again....


*when secret agents are on phone tapping of judges...can they know..wht is happening inside the heart of capital...in a place which is already famous for tensive speeches and vogorousss elements....

*who supported Ghazi brothers for 20 years...were all armed forces were not with them...now they have become the terrorists....


* i am against their implementation ways..but what they are saying...is 100% right..do you not know..what is going on in the name of enlightened Moderation..are you so unaware of that...Aunti Shameem...regulars customers were many Federal Secreatries..and 2 Ministers....and police invited the girls to stop that..as they said ..we are helpless due to government pressure..i am aginst the way the girls raided..but its not the duty of law enforcement agencies to stop these things..tell me...

Many people said said that Lal Masjid was a drama and threat of islamic millitants....

hahahah....

*do you know...the ISI HQ is about 200 or 400 yards from the Lal Mosque....

* the petrol bombs...rocket launchers...gas masks..accumulated to this mosque in invisble mode...i think.....

* the ISI personals were drinkinng daru ..and enjoying soota of powder wali cigaratte when all arms were going in.....

* is it possible that..inside heart of a capital..and adjacent to ISI HQ....the dangerous arms keep on gathering....

* The baighairat general and his bloody baihgat generals ka tola ...instteadof using IB..MI..and ISI for national security..were using them to gather funny and ridiculous....proofs of Chef Justice inside house photographs..bugging the 19 SC judges...phone tapping...and threatening them with pressures.....Lanat on them...is in UK or USA..can you think..the government can do such dirty things....


* bugging of all High Courts ..and judges housese so that they cnnot unfold..the Chor Bazari..of the government..and black mail them...lanat on all the Baighatrs general's Tola again....


*when secret agents are on phone tapping of judges...can they know..wht is happening inside the heart of capital...in a place which is already famous for tensive speeches and vogorousss elements....

*who supported Ghazi brothers for 20 years...were all armed forces were not with them...now they have become the terrorists....


* i am against their implementation ways..but what they are saying...is 100% right..do you not know..what is going on in the name of enlightened Moderation..are you so unaware of that...Aunti Shameem...regulars customers were many Federal Secreatries..and 2 Ministers....and police invited the girls to stop that..as they said ..we are helpless due to government pressure..i am aginst the way the girls raided..but its not the duty of law enforcement agencies to stop these things..tell me...

Khadija:

Your letter is well written. I do not believe Mush has any answers. Maybe you can answer the following questions:

Jamia Hafsa and Lal Masjid had armed people and in fighting they were able to kill 13 soldiers including a Colonel. Is this normal thing in Pakistani Madrassahs and other Schools and colleges?

Certainly there must be supplies of Alcohol and call girls available in Islamabad. It is very bad indeed. But should the common people take the law in their own hands and abduct people to put them on the right path??

Is it Islamic to raid the privacy of any home or business? The ladies with sticks were shown everywhere in the World smashing video stores. In the West even police cannot raid a home without proper warrant obtained from authorities???

I can assure you that in Europe and North America, all vices of alcohol, drugs, teenage pregnancies, prostitution exist ten fold as compared to Pakistan.

Then why majority of Pakistanis want want migrate to the West which maybe the land of Sinners.

I do not know about others but let me give my reasons.

1. In the West most of the people have food, clothing and shelter.

2. Health care is provided to majority of the citizens.

3. People are given the freedom of religion and the state tries its best to safeguard the right of worship.

For me these are enough reasons.

Lastly, I also believe that peaceful resolution is always better than fighting.

#566 rf: The issues (free and fair elections for president, illegal for officer in uniform to be president, "disapperances" of pakistanis) are crystal clear. They didnt merely clash: musharraf tried to intimidate the CJ by putting on his uniform and having his 3-4 intelligence chiefs also in the room for hours trying to convince him to agree to his demand to continue as dictator. These differences have been reported in the local and world press for months. How you can say the issues are not clear is beyond me. How you can say that Musharraf's scheme for getting himself "re-elected" without calling general elections first is not short-circuiting of elections is beyond me.

As for the general's grace: he is a proven liar (and best that I can recall, the only head of state to have been called a liar in a major US newspaper, the Washington Post, editorial only last year when the paper noted that his claim that he never joked about gang rapes in his interview was disproved by the audio tape of the interview); orchestrated the outrages of May 12; lied when he came to power and claimed he would call elections soon; mocked the electoral process to get his current term by having a referendum... like I said the list is a long one. If you think this is "grace" than I dont know of anything that can be called "despicable"!!

You are obviously aware of all of the above as I am.

Re: # 565

Short circuiting elections? Why wud any supporter of democracy advocate for such an illegal act? That is an inappropriate inference.

Ass for the reasons why these two clashed is not yet clear, u r making popular assumptions that may not be true.

And give some credit to the General for showing grace where many have failed in the past.

Re: # 564 The ends do not justify the means. You cannot short-circuit proper elections regardless of how noble you consider your visions to be.

Granted the judge himself was put in position by Musharraf. So what? The issues that made the judge a hurdle to Mush's ambitions - mush's demands to make a mockery of the next elections so his stay in power is assured, and the "disappearances" of people in Pakistan where the judge demanded habeas corpus - stand by themselves. And the people of Pakistan understand these issues and have spoken out loud and clear through peaceful demonstrations.

#562 Posted by tahmed32

With regards to Mush, its nothing personal but a matter of achieving ideological objectives. Take the Mulla party for example, they have always rallied in support of any person or party that contributes even a fraction to their philosophical agenda. On this latest lal Masjid affair, all religious parties and individuals have tried to rationalize their objectives thus justifying their rebellion. How many secular, liberal parties do the same to achieve their objective? Not many and thats the sad part, if liberal forces are going to make it in Pakistan then they have to set their priorities straight and know their enemy. Musharraf maybe a military dictator but so was Zia and the mulla brigade milked him for everything possible and we have this end product in the form of state within the state.

As for your comments regarding the CJ issueing court order putting an end to Musharraf's regime, on what basis? Its the same CJ who ordained Musharraf's coup and continuation in military uniform. If the CJ allows personal feelings to interfere with his judgement then he has no right to be a judge who is supposed to be impartial.

#559 Posted by harish_hyd

Harish Sahib,

What started out as a bad decision eventually developed into a civil rights movement which no one had planned, or did they? This mistake was a blessing in disguise, had Mush not blundered, Chaudhry wud have remained an obedient CJ who wud have tumbled along till his natural exit. Once again, it was Musharraf's decision which prompted a historical civil rights movement that may prove to be a turning point in Pakistan's history.

rf786: you write We seem to share the same goals its the means that differ and that is immaterial compared to the end objective.

That is quite true I think with respect to having the same goals - a lawful society in Pakistan, free from military interference, peaceful and progressive. That can be the only goal for reasonable people in Pakistan or anywhere else for any part of the world.

With respect to the means, I think now is as good a time as any to reach for that goal, given that we have a remarkable national consensus on the independance of the Supreme Court. I say remarkable because I cant think of any occasion since 1965 when the nation has come together as one on any issue as this one - religious parties and PPP and (most important) non-party groups like lawyers and journalists shed their differences and marched peacefully together.

As for approach, I think we are saying the same thing - the end of military interference in politics. So I am not sure where the difference is, although from your post it seems you want to apply some kind of exception to Musharraf. If that is what you are saying, then indeed we have a difference in approach. If not, then I think we can both agree on the means - which is for the Chief Justice to issue a court order that puts an end to Musharraf's attempts to make a mockery of the election process in order for him to stay in power.

YLH,

October second has been named the world day of peace to honour Gandhi. The resolution was passed unanimously by the UN, even pakistan did not abstain. Even your beloved military masters do not care for your theory.

Jinnah will be remembered for creating pakistan, as long as that country lasts. Bangladeshis have forgotten about Jinnah. NWFP people hate him. The sindhis, well ask atlaf hussain.

It is only the few punjabis that have any regard for Jinnah.

#559 by harish_hyd

So he let the due process take its course, and was probably only too happy to see the CJ reinstated.

should read

So he let the process take its due course, and was probably only too happy to see the CJ reinstated.

#555 Posted by rf786

By acknowledging and honoring the Supreme Judicial Councils decision, Musharraf and his Govt have also shown grace that needs to be recognized.

Arif bhai, my understanding is that actually Mushy did want to back out of the whole thing when it got out of hand (the extraordinary protests by the lawyers and the overwhelming support of the public), but realized that by backtracking, his image of a no nonsense, tough talking commando would take a severe beating. So he let the due process take its course, and was probably only too happy to see the CJ reinstated. For now, the CJ is the lesser evil compared to the Mullahs who're baying for his blood.

#555 by rf786

#555 Posted by rf786

By acknowledging and honoring the Supreme Judicial Councils decision, Musharraf and his Govt have also shown grace that needs to be recognized.

Arif bhai, my understanding is that actually Mushy did want to back out of the whole thing when it got out of hand (the extraordinary protests by the lawyers and the overwhelming support of the public), but realized that by backtracking, his image of a no nonsense, tough talking commando would take a severe beating. So he let the due process take its course, and was probably only too happy to see the CJ reinstated. For now, the CJ is the lesser evil compared to the Mullahs who're baying for his blood.

Re: # 556

tahmed32

I will totally agree with you that the MILITARY has no role in running the country. Its not just Musharraf or some other General who keep on interfering with our lives, its the military establishment that needs to be restrained and removed from the political process. By targeting an individual we are making room for another tinpot to take his place, emphasis sud be on a structural change and that wud require Pakistans biggest political party ie Pak Military's consent OR we sud be willing to wage a war of confrontation which ofcourse is not a wise choice.

We seem to share the same goals its the means that differ and that is immaterial compared to the end objective.

Regards

Arif

rf786 #555 I will agree with you to the extent that the Musharraf government is not totally stupid like the lal masjid maulvis, and can read the writing on the wall. It knows that further confrontation with the Supreme Court, backed by massive popular support, is futile. It is futile because even Musharraf cannot order soldiers to start attacking peaceful demonstrators. And all that Musharraf has done is try to avoid a replay of the fall of Ayub Khan. So it is not grace, but "enlightened self-preservation", that characterizes the Musharraf governments acceptance of the Supreme Court decision.

Taking into account all of the facts is not being emotional. It is rather an attempt at having as sound a basis for one's views as possible: And the fact is that Musharraf has to answer for the "disappearances". His sabotage, in coordination with mqm on May 12, of the peaceful demonstrations in Karachi - at a cost of 42 lives. His attempts to prolong his autocratic rule by another 5 years by making a mockery of the election process. The list is a long one. And even as you talk of "grace", he sits as an autocrat, shamelessly sticking to his demand to continue for the next 5 years.

Military interference in Pakistan politics must come to an end. Pakistan is too mature a country to be ruled by tinpot dictators any more. Musharraf has done enough damage to the nation.

#552 Posted by tahmed32

By acknowledging and honoring the Supreme Judicial Councils decision, Musharraf and his Govt have also shown grace that needs to be recognized. There was no Sultan Rahi attack on the Supreme court, no emergency, no changing of Judges nor was their any after the fact refusal to accept the verdit. All of the above have happened in Pakistan by elected and non-elected representatives.

Do not forget, it was the same gentleman who in his official duties as the CJP has endorsed Musharrafs on more than one occassion, so what makes u so sure he will not do the same?

When u confuse personal feelings with what is reasonable argument then comments made are immaterial and show emotions of disgust. Pakistan needs a strong civil society and rulers who are supportive of judicial process. Mistakes are made by the best, what is important is the acknowledgment and correction of these mistakes, Musharraf and Co have absolved themselves to a certain extent by showing respect of the judicial decision.

#553 Posted by nasah

nasah ji....welcome back. kahan ghayaab ho jatain hain hazoor???

"We want you to take positions and then stick to them." (author)

hope you are not talking about Mr. Musharraf's 'easy' acceptance of the Supreme Court verdict. People are glad that Mr. Musharraf did not stick with his original silly position.

Re: # 551 I am glad we agree on the respect the Pakistani people have earned through their brave yet peaceful demonstrations in support of the rule of law.

Obviously either I did not make the point sufficiently clear, or else you deliberately chose to downplay it by calling it immaterial. So let me try to make it as clear as I can:

Even Musharraf, through his actions (attempted bullying of the CJ followed by attempted sacking of the CJ), has made it clear that the issue I drew your attention to (free and fair elections) was in fact a material issue.

And with this verdict, there is every reason to believe that either Musharraf will have to back down now on this issue, thus effectively ending his 9 year rule. The CJ certainly has no reason to permit Musharraf to continue as a supra-constitutional autocrat, and Musharraf's attempts to bully him have already failed. The only real option left for Musharraf if he insists on trying to cling to power is to unleash the full force of the military to protect himself: in which case all bets are off. Whatever the coutcome, one thing is for sure - the issue I raised is not exactly immaterial!!

btw, I dont see what prompts you to say I am "frustrated and disgusted" on what I consider to be perhaps the greatest day in Pakistan's history. Rest assured I am very pleased with the outcome.

#550tahmed32

Ordinary Pakistanis when given the choice have shown tremendous fortitude and desire for moderation, this human quality is pervasive throughout Pakistan like other nations.

As for our comments regarding Mush and his padres, there is nothing material in your comments except for frustration and disgust, that is your prerogative.

rf #532 The real Letter to President Musharraf was delivered yesterday by the Supreme Court. This is indeed a great day for all.

I beg to differ that the (attempted) sacking of the CJ was merely "ill-advised". Musharraf (as his son said in his Chowk article when Musharraf took over) had no choice. He could either sack the CJ and declare himself elected per his mockery of the electoral process, or submit to the law and permit free and fair election.

As for civil society - Ordinary Pakistanis have proved they are more enlightened than this self-proclaimed "enlightened moderate" and his ghoonda fascist supporters from mqm and his puppet islamic fascists. Sic Semper Tyrannis!!

Re: # 526My point was that there is a much greater link of Gandhi to Moplahs and indeed Jamia Hafsa ... than the two nation theory that Jayp wants to malign and has even taken to inventing quotes... you know could care less to bring them together but if someone can so illogically argue and try to link the Islamo-fascist tendencies in a small minority of Muslims to our legtimate stance for Pakistan... then one should point out the obvious links between Gandhi and true Islamic fundamentalist and terrorist movements of South Asia... I do not wish to dwell Gandhi honestly but if this line of argument is taken... should I not point out the facts?


Achyuth Patwardhan, one of the Socialist stalwarts in the Congress, has given a remarkably candid and self critical analysis of the Congress Party vis-a-vis Khilafat: ’It is, however, useful to recognise our share of this error of misdirection. To begin with, I am convinced that looking back upon the course of development of the freedom movement, THE ’HIMALAYAN ERROR’ of Gandhiji’s leadership was the support he extended on behalf of the Congress and the Indian people to the Khilafat Movement at the end of the World War I. This has proved to be a disastrous error which has brought in its wake a series of harmful consequences. On merits, it was a thoroughly reactionary step. The Khilafat was totally unworthy of support of the Progressive Muslims. Kemel Pasha established this solid fact by abolition of the Khilafat. The abolition of the Khilafat was widely welcomed by enlightened Muslim opinion the world over and Kemel was an undoubted hero of all young Muslims straining against Imperialist domination. But apart from the fact that Khilafat was an unworthy reactionary cause, Mahatma Gandhi had to align himself with a sectarian revivalist Muslim Leadership of clerics and maulvis. He was thus unwittingly responsible for jettisoning sane, secular, modernist leadership among the Muslims of India and foisting upon the Indian Muslims a theocratic orthodoxy of the Maulvis. Maulana Mohammed Ali’s speeches read today appear strangely incoherent and out of tune with the spirit of secular political freedom. The Congress Movement which released the forces of religious liberalism and reform among the Hindus, and evoked a rational scientific outlook, placed the Muslims of India under the spell of orthodoxy and religious superstition by their support to the Khilafat leadership. Rationalist leaders like Jinnah were rebuffed by this attitude of Congress and Gandhi. This is the background of the psychological rift between Congress and the Muslim League’.

and

’Since the Khilafat agitation, things have changed and it has been one of the many injuries inflicted on India by the encouragement of the Khilafat crusade, that the inner Muslim feeling of hatred against ’unbelievers’ has sprung up, naked and unashamed, as in years gone by’.

and

A terrible and gruesome fallout of the disastrous Khilafat experiment of Mahatma Gandhi was the Moplah Rebellion in Malabar District in 1921. According to the Report of the ENQUIRY COMMITTEE OF SERVANTS OF INDIA SOCIETY, the number of Hindus murdered by Moplah Muslims was 1500, the number of Hindus forcibly converted 20,000 and the value of property looted about Rs three crore. When the national and local leaders appealed to the virulently anti-Hindu Moplah Muslims in the name of Mahatma Gandhi to follow the ways of peace and non-violence, they replied bluntly with Islamic fervour: ’GANDHI IS A KAFIR, HOW CAN HE BE OUR LEADER?’ Dr Anne Besant declared: ’The Moplah Muslim marauders murdered and plundered abundantly, killed or drove away all Hindus who would not apostatize. Somewhere about 100,000 people were driven from their homes with nothing but the clothes they had on, stripped of everything’. She also accused all the Khilafat religious preachers for all this terrible atrocities. J Campbell, chief of the Intelligence Department, Government of India, held the Khilafat leaders squarely responsible for inciting racial hatred resulting in Moplah carnage.

http://www.newstodaynet.com/2006sud/06aug/2208ss1.htm

Mahatma Gandhi’s attempt to harness the feeling for the cause of national independence backfired and led to the uprising in Kerala known as the Moplah Rebellion. It took the British several months to put it down at the cost of thousands of lives.



Moplahs were very much part of the grand Khilafat Movement that Gandhi was spearheading and Gandhi kept apologising for them


The Dravidian Moplahs had directed their revolt with class venom against some Aryan high-caste Hindus with property as well as Britishers: Brahmanical elements tried to use that to spark a crisis in Hindu-Muslim relations all over India. Gandhi tried to hold a balance: like the U.S. press and the Negro nationalists who read it he stressed that the Moplah uprising could be made part of a united drive for independence by Indians of all sects.But he was also aware of the pan-Islamic dimension: in a December 1921 call to the British to suspend their attacks against the Moplahs, he was to observe that the Moplahs saw themselves as fighting for a religion with methods they considered religious: Yogesh Chadha, Rediscovering Gandhi (London: Century 1997) p. 254.


And lets not forget the Tehreek-e-Hijrat Fatwa that Gandhi’s right hand man Azad gave to Muslims which gave Muslims two options "JEHAD" or "HIJRAT".

The Muslim Ulema, thinkers and activists called for the boycott of foreign goods and non-cooperation with the British government. Meetings were organised in order to rally the masses to support these issues. The meetings were organised under the banner of Mo’tamar al-Ansar (The Workers Conference) and various newspapers such as Al-Hilal of Maualana Abul Kalam Azad and The Comrade of Maulana Mohammad Ali Jauhar. Both Maulana Abdul Kalam Azad and Maulana Maulana Mohammad Ali Jauhar were put behind bars for publishing anti-British articles in their newspapers. The latter spent four years in prison between 1911 and 1915CE.


The allegiance of the Muslim intelligentsia of India at that to the Khilafah is unquestionable. Maulana Abdul Kalam Azad summed up their view when he wrote in his newspaper al-Hilal on 6th November 1912 that the Ottoman Sultans possessed the only sword which Muslims had for their protection. Insofar as the “caliphate was essentially a religious integration of the shari’a�, it became “necessary by revelation, is of God’s institution and that obedience to its authority is farz, or positively commanded�.


The Khilafat Movement


In September 1919, Maulana Muhammad Ali and his brother Shaukat Ali, together with Maulana Abdul Kalam Azad, Dr. Mukhtar Ahmed Ansari, and Hasrat Mohani, started a new organization, the Khilafat Movement (1919-1924). Their avowed aim was to use whatever leverage they had to protect the Khilafah. They organized Khilafat Conferences in several northern Indian cities. It is noticeable that the scholars and activists that were part of the Khilafat movement came from different schools of thought and backgrounds, for example Maulana Abul Kalam Azad was known to be a ‘ghayr taqleedi’ (non-taqleedi – who believed Taqleed to Mazahib is prohibited) and Maulana Mahmood Hasan was Deobandi who are followers of the Hanafi Mazhab yet they were united in the objective of working for the maintenance of the Khilafah.


In 1919, the Bombay Khilafat Committee agreed on two important organisational goals: “first, to urge the retention of the temporal powers of the Sultan of Turkey as Caliph, and second to ensure his continued suzerainty over the Islamic holy places.�

Delivering the presidential address at the Calcutta meeting of the Bengal Provincial Khilafat Conference in 1920, Maulana Azad discussed the importance of Khilafah he declared, “the purpose of this institution was to organise and lead the Muslim community in the right path, to establish justice, to bring about peace, and to spread God’s word in the world. For all this it was absolutely necessary for the caliph to possess temporal power�. Maulana Azad had no doubt that “without an Imam, their lives were un-Islamic and that they would be damned after death�.


Maulana Azad published a book in 1920 called Masla-e-Khilafat (The Issue of Khilafah), he stated: “Without the Khilafah the existence of Islam is not possible, the Muslims of India with all their effort and power need to work for this�.

In the same book page 176 Maulana Azad said, “There are two types of ahkam shariah, the first is related to the individual like the commands and prohibitions, the fara’id (obligations) and wajibat in order to perfect oneself. The second is not related to the individual but is related to the Ummah, nation, collective obligations and state politics like the conquering of lands, political and economic laws�.

According to Peter Hardy, Maulana Azad believed that, “The Muslim who would separate religion and politics for Muslims is an apostate who works silently�.


The loss of political power in India and the threat posed by a combination of forces to the temporal authority of the caliph, was so worrisome for the leaders of the Muslim community that some of them felt compelled to issue fatwas ‘in favour of migration (hijra)’ from India.


Maulana Abul Kalam Azad issued a fatwa which was published in the daily Ahl-e-Hadith of Amritsar on 30 July 1920. In his fatwa he urged Hijrat from India as an alternative to non-cooperation with the British. (YLH’s note: Was the Hijaz Born Azad a "Wahabi"... note "Ahle-Hadith)

Maulana Abdul Bari’s fatwa said, “every Muslim residing here should adopt non-cooperation but if (that is) impossible, should proceed for hijrat�. Maulana Shaukat Ali issued a statement on behalf of the Central Khilafat Committee, “expressing the hope that all dedicated Muslims would stay in India and work for the non-cooperation. Only if it did not succeed would they consider resorting to hijrat�. The impact of the fatwa was electrifying and thousands of Muslims preferred to leave the Dar al harb of India where their religious rights symbolized in the position of the Turkish Caliph was being infringed.


And most amazing was the fact that Gandhi’s encouragement led to Deobandi ulema creating the Jamiat ulema Hind ... which in its numerous forms and heads plagues South Asia even today... and all these groups are spin offs of the same.

....

Re: # 468

JayP means Gandhi ... Gandhi the racist casteist Hindu fascist bigot ... who was responsible for more misery in the subcontinent than anyone else.

You may try and distort history all you want... but the facts are that it was Mohandas Gandhi who encouraged religious bigots of all kinds... it was Mohandas Gandhi who encouraged Deobandis into Politics...

And it was MOHANDAS GANDHI on whose ORDERS these VERY MULLAHS abused Jinnah and Pakistan as "KAFIR-e-Azam" and "KAFIRISTAN" during the Pakistan Movement.

"Thus GANDHI THE HINDU FASCIST GAVE BIRTH TO A NEW KIND OF ISLAM.... a new version of islam called GANDHI version has taken root in that country. Sadly Jinnah’s progressive principles were ignored and a total givernment suppoprt for this GANDHI islam based on the MULLAHISM. The crowining achievemnt that brought it to worlds attention is the demolition of Bhumian Budhas. These statues survived more than 2000 years, through all of the muslim invaders. The hatred for other religions, the core of the GANDHIAN ISLAM, and transmitted to the students of Pak schools resilted in the demolition of the statues."


The only thing "Jihadic" tendencies of the Deobandis can be traced back to subcontinent’s first true terrorist, the racist casteist hindu fascist Bigot Gandhi who encouraged and brought Mullahs into politics... Think about it... was it not then that the Moplahs rose up and attacked Hindus in South India? TNT and Pakistan was no where in sight then. It was thus this Gandhian doctrine of using religion into politics that started the hatred between communities - as warned by not just Jinnah but Motilal Nehru, CR Das and even Tilak- himself a pious Hindu.

Since one sees Moplah uprising the the first of its kind in terms of "Islamic terrorism" in the 20th century ... one can easily trace back Islamic terrorism to Gandhiji. So atleast give credit where its due ... my boy.

Speaking about Muslim nationhood which merely envisaged a consociationalist solution to India like an ignorant fool that you are... will only delay the process of understanding this communal hatred which still plagues your "secular" India... in a way that it does not plague Pakistan. So go back to the source... it is the evil and poisonous Gandhian ideology that is to blame for communal dischord in South Asia... and as long as Gandhian ideology is hailed and praised, and not buried... India will continue to be plagued with communal violence of the kind that broke out in Ahmedabad.

-YLH

Re: # 476

Again you mean Gandhi-Islamists my friend... Gandhi was the father of all religious fascism ... lets not forget.

Abusing Jinnah for something that he opposed ... and exonerating the Racist Casteist Hindu fascist Bigot Gandhi who was responsible for religious bigotry in the first place is a cheap trick.

Re: # 522

Oh come now Jayp...

Surely You mean GANDHI-Islam... for I must have proved million times that it was Gandhi who brought these Mullahs into politics against all counsel from Jinnah.

Abusing Jinnah TNT Pakistan etc for Gandhi's creation is rather funny if you ask me.

#532 Posted by tahmed32

Dear tahmed32

Every step in direction of strengthening civil society is a step in the right direction. Victory for the CJ is a victory for civil society, there is no ambiguity about that and this is a day to celebrate, congratulations.

Just one caveat, Musharraf was ill-advised when he moved against the CJ, that was a blunder because Musharraf's secular Govt strength lies with civil society empowered by independent judiciary. Now that judiciary has regained its suspended independence, people of Pakistan can once again have hope for justice.

mohar mian,

..... i thought you were kidding about the burqini, but here it is ! ...... you have to admit that all fat women who might be mistaken for beached whales should be forced to wear it ...... who said nothing good ever came out of islam ! (please notice that it is designed to accomodate a medium sized suicide belt)

#530 Posted by Ranjit

Agree... but I don't think india can do much... the so called "secular elements" in pakiland are more anti-india and filled with anti-hindu big0try than the even the mullahs... so as far as India is concerned - there is no such beast called "secular" paki... you can see that here in chowk itself...

So while your intentions are good, it's still not a workable proposal...

Besides - islamisation and talibanisation of muslim nations is inevitable - it's bound to happen - there ain't nothing america, india or china can do about it... In the only secular muslim country like turkey - islamics are gaining ground - there are now mushrooming "islamic resorts" where women wear "burqini" [ a burqa-bikini, imagine that ] and swim in segreggated swimming pools... the coming election there is predicted to be a big victory for them...

Malayasia - the other "moderate" muslim country - the deputy PM describes his country as an "islamic state"... they now have islamic vice squads, islmisation is spreading fast...

If these countries with established secular credentials and origins are falling fast into islamic abyss - what chance does pakiland have - which has been in islamic clutch right from the start - which was founded in name of islam?...

Alright - pakis, you have made history... congrats on pulling one on Mushy :)

chennai i think you are missing a big point here. Nearly everyone secular/fundo alike in pakistan is celebrating the victory of a powerful nonviolent return of independant judiciary. It matters shit all what Bush knows since Bush knows nothing.

chennai i think you are missing a big point here. Nearly everyone secular/fundo alike in pakistan is celebrating the victory of a powerful nonviolent return of independant judiciary. It matters shit all what Bush knows since Bush knows nothing.

#534 Posted by philosopher

here we go again..pakis deluding themselves on some "victory"....Does Bushy the Bright know who this chaudry dude is.....and does he even want to know.......

Is this "victory" going to change the US intervention in Pakistan or speed up the process.....

U need to answer these........

#534 Posted by philosopher

here we go again..pakis deluding themselves on some "victory"....Does Bushy the Bright know who this chaudry dude is.....and does he even want to know.......

Is this "victory" going to change the US intervention in Pakistan or speed up the process.....

U need to answer these........

#534 Posted by philosopher

here we go again..pakis deluding themselves on some "victory"....Does Bushy the Bright know who this chaudry dude is.....and does he even want to know.......

Is this "victory" going to change the US intervention in Pakistan or speed up the process.....

#534 Posted by philosopher

here we go again..pakis deluding themselves on some "victory"....Does Bushy the Bright know who this chaudry dude is.....and does he even want to know.......

Is this "victory" going to change the US intervention in Pakistan or speed up the process.....

#534 Posted by philosopher

here we go again..pakis deluding themselves on some "victory"....Does Bushy the Bright know who this chaudry dude is.....and does he even want to know.......

Is this "victory" going to change the US intervention in Pakistan or speed up the process.....

Mushyoons are screwed...

congrats muslimoon


Pakistan Chief Justice reinstated as SC gives historic decision
ISLAMABAD: A 13-member full court of the Supreme Court on Friday gave historic verdict to reinstate Chief Justice Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry and quashed misconduct charges filed against him by President Pervez Musharraf.

The announcement sparked massive celebrations by lawyers who had spent the day waiting outside the court for the verdict.

Chaudhry was suspended in March, following allegations that he abused his position, notably to obtain a top police job for his son and other privileges for himself.

"The reference of the president dated March 9, 2007 is set aside," presiding judge Khalil-ur-Rehman Ramday told the court, announcing the panel of judges had reached a 10-3 decision in Chaudhry's favour after a 43-day hearing.

"As a further consequence, the petitioner, the Chief Justice of Pakistan, shall be deemed to be holding the said office and shall always be deemed to have been so holding the same," he said.

The Supreme Court started hearing of an appeal of Chief Justice of Pakistan Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry against his suspension by President Gen. Pervez Musharraf on April 18.

Iftikhar Mohammed Chaudhry had challenged Musharraf's decision to suspend him and he was under trial for alleged misconduct.

The lead counsel for the chief justice Chaudhry Aitzaz Ahsan had filed a petition against presidential reference under article 184-III of constitution.

Aitzaz Ahsan had completed his arguments during the hearing today after which head of a 13-member full court bench of Supreme Court Justice Khalilur Rahman Ramday announced the brief verdict.

On this occasion, special security arrangements were made outside the Supreme Court by posting heavy contingents of police.

Meanwhile, Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz said the government accepted the Supreme Court's decision to reinstate the country's top judge but added it was "not the time to claim victory or defeat."

"I have just learnt of the Supreme Court decision. I have always maintained that the decision by the honourable court must be accepted by all sections of the people including the government itself," Aziz said in a statement.

"This is not the time to claim victory or defeat. The constitution and the law have prevailed and must prevail at all times," he added.

ranjit,

"We need to immediately setup an alliance with the US and the secular elements of Pak army and Pak society. The secular elements should be given full support both materially and logistically to crush the islamists."

..... great idea ! ...... you can start by sending a hundred dollars to my paypal account .....

... thank you for your support

rf: the solution to mullah lawlessness is - surprise! - law and order. Not musharraf or some general taking on airs of being the "centralized power" in Pakistan (as Mush was calling for yesterday in his continued efforts to cling to power).

And law and order means, doing police investigative work to find those responsible for bombings and bringing them to court as murderers. For finding those responsible for attacking peaceful protesters (as on May 12) and bringing them to court.

And the tossing out of all charges by mush as being unconstitional by the Supreme Court by overwhelming majority is a giant step in the right direction. And the credit for this goes to all Pakistanis who are struggling peacefully and bravely against gun-toting mullahs and ambitious two-bit generals.

Re: # 530 Posted by Ranjit:

It is only a matter of when & how the US is going to intervene in Pakistan and not "if".

That being the case India should sit tight and not get involved in what appears to be a battle of Islamic ideology.

Guys, I know it is very tempting for us Indians to enjoy the sight of violence and chaos in Pakistan. However, lets take a calm and sober look at what is going on next door. Pakistan is slowly degnerating into a civil war between Islamists and Secularists along the lines of what happened in Algeria and to some extent in Egypt. The outcome of this conflict can have serious consequences, not just for Pakistan but also for India. There is no guarantee that the Secularists (represented by the army) will win here. For all practical purposes, the NWFP and Baluchistan provinces are pretty much uncontrollable by Islamabad. There are certainly strong sections in the Pak army and the security establishment that favors the Islamists. Therefore, there is a real chance of a fracture in the Pak army as well along the same lines that Pak society is fracturing.

In the worst case scenario, we could see a Islamist general overthrowing Mushy and adopting a completely pro-Taliban ideology. While a majority of Pakistanis may not support that, they are too weak to stand up to the Islamists, especially if the army switches allegiance. That would lead to Pakistan becoming a Sunni clone of Iran and the US may be booted out of the region. In an even bleaker scenario, the army could fall apart by splitting between generals who are islamists vs generals who are secular. That would lead to pro-Taliban elements aligned with one section of the army fighting an opposing section of the army that would have US support. Now throw the control of nukes into all this and you have the perfect storm scenario developing here.

I think it is time for India to wake up and have a serious discussion with the US about what to do about Pakistan and the way it is headed. In any such scenario above, it will lead to doomsday for India as well. A rogue Islamist general with nukes will not hesitate to reduce North India to the stone age even as Pakistan gets wiped out in exchange. We need to immediately setup an alliance with the US and the secular elements of Pak army and Pak society. The secular elements should be given full support both materially and logistically to crush the islamists. They must be encouraged to use the most brutal tactics possible to wipe out the Islamists without raising bogeys about human rights and so forth.

We need to learn from history. A thousand years back when Islamists were attacking the Northwest of India, the rest of North India was watching a tamasha from the sidelines. As a result, the entire Northwest became muslim and North India also got conquered under imperial muslim rule. We must not let that history repeat itself by watching the events in Pakistan as a tamasha for our entertainment.

Noose is getting tighter and tighter for the fascists mulla brigade, every suicide bombing, attack on civil society brings their fate ever so closer to their end. To claim otherwise is delusional and will not change anything.

Like I have said b4, If Mush cannot do the job then someother General will have to do it, and if there is no general willing, then Uncle Sam is itching to pull the plug. Now we also have our dear friend the Chinese breathing down our necks, that cud mean only one thing, International forces have decided enuff is enuff and Pakistani establishment has no choice but to eliminate these cells of terrorism or face extinction.

For the chutya mulla supporters, is'nt one Afghanistan enuff, do they want another fkng qabristaan in Pakistan? I guess, for these egomaniacs its their way or no way, so I say let them be decimated for the good of peace loving majority.

Well, It looks like curtains for Mushy the Mighty Warrior of Muslims.......

By Vali Nasr
Fri Jul 20, 4:00 AM ET

Washington - The National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) released this week paints a bleak picture of Al Qaeda's renewed strength and determination to attack America. And a major part of the blame, US officials charge, lies with someone President Bush has described as a critical ally in the war on terror: Pakistani President General Pervez Musharraf.

Since 9/11, Washington has looked to President Musharraf to uproot Islamic extremism in South Asia. Nearly six years later, however, Pakistan is still a nuclear-armed crucible of jihadi culture, exporting terrorists and destabilizing its neighbors.

For too long, Washington has coddled the Pakistani general, turned a blind eye to his crushing of democracy, and read too much into his pro-West rhetoric. The US must change course. And there are signs it's about to. "There's no doubt that more aggressive steps need to be taken," White House spokesman Tony Snow said.

After almost a decade under Mush-arraf's rule, Pakistan hasn't changed much. He has initiated reforms and revamped the economy. But where he was expected to do most, fighting Islamic extremism, Pakistan's record is most disappointing.

Al Qaeda and the Taliban use Pakistani soil as a haven and training ground. Recent deals between the government and Pashtun tribes have in effect ceded the border region between Afghanistan and Pakistan to the Taliban and their Al Qaeda allies. A big reason Al Qaeda's influence is growing, according to the NIE, is the operational capability it enjoys in Pakistan.

Musharraf speaks of "enlightened moderation," but he has done more to pulverize secular democratic parties than contain Islamist ones. It was his electoral rules that helped Islamist parties win their largest parliamentary representation ever in 2002, marginalizing the larger secular parties that threatened him.

Islamabad is happy to nab foreign jihadis when pressured by the West or ban extremist groups that get out of hand, but it has been reluctant to uproot the infrastructure of extremism.

Extremist groups proliferate and operate in the open. Musharraf finds them useful in convincing Washington and Pakistan's middle classes that the military is all that protects the country from a Taliban-like Islamic state.

It is not a coincidence that the government's recent battle against extremists associated with the Red Mosque came on the heels of nationwide antigovernment protests following Musharraf's summary dismissal of the country's chief justice. Musharraf hopes that the crisis will persuade secular-minded Pakistanis to abandon the barricades and align behind him.

The government was fully aware of what went on in the Red Mosque, just a mile from the powerful Inter-Services Intelligence headquarters. Yet Musharraf chose to ignore the extremists between January and June, even as they sought to impose Islamic law on the capital city. It was not until he sensed public anger at his dithering, and confronted a diplomatic crisis when the extremists abducted Chinese nationals, that he stormed the mosque.

Frustrated with developments in Pakistan, many in Washington look to elections and a civilian government for solutions. Democracy should be wel-comed, but it will change little. The last time there was a transfer of power to a civilian government, in 1988, the military still chose the foreign minister and informed the prime minister that it would control the nuclear program, intelligence, security, and policies toward Afghanistan and India. This time, too, the military will continue to call the shots – especially when it comes to Afghanistan.

Without Pakistani cooperation, NATO and the US will have to substantially increase their commitments to contain the Taliban. That cooperation will not be forthcoming until the US addresses Pakistani interests. Afghanistan has always been a strategic concern for Islamabad. Pashtuns make up 40 percent of Afghanistan, but there are more Pashtuns in Pakistan, where they constitute 15 percent of the population. Afghanistan has never recognized the border (Durand line) between the two countries, and for most of Pakistan's existence, Pashtuns in control of an independent Afghan state have been allied with India and laid irredentist claims to Pakistan's Pashtun Northwest Province.

It was only when Pakistani-backed Afghan mujahideen or the Taliban ruled Kabul that Pakistan felt secure in its relations with Afghanistan. Pakistani generals counted on the "strategic depth" that their neighbor to the northwest would provide in a war against India.

These days, they see Afghanistan as an adversary. They are irked by Afghan President Hamid Karzai's strong ties to Delhi and the mushrooming of Indian consulates across Afghanistan. The territory that they "owned" until 9/11, thanks to the Taliban, is now at best neutral and at worst the playground of their arch rival, India. Pakistan does not view Afghanistan through the prism of the war on terror, but in the context of its own vulnerabilities in the competition for power and influence with India. That's why Islamabad has everything to gain by playing the Taliban card, giving its fighters and their Al Qaeda allies a lair in Pakistan's border region, to keep Kabul weak and southern Afghanistan free of Indian influence.

In dealing with Pakistan, Washington has preferred to see the logic of the war on terror as self-evident, not recognizing that even close allies will not cooperate if it does not serve their interests. It is only by addressing Pakistan's interests that Washington can secure greater cooperation from Islamabad.

Washington cannot give Pakistan the sphere of influence in southern Afghanistan that it desires to make sure it will not be encircled by India. However, Washington can give Pakistan greater interest in Afghanistan's stability than it has now by encouraging Kabul to include Pakistan's allies and clients in government; and more important, to finally recognize its international border with Pakistan.

Tiger Aziz,

A new hero is born in pakistan, the fire brand jihad preaching mullah tried to escape in a burka and in the great pakistani tradition, he has been called the Tiger Aziz. That is the title given to general Niazi for surrendering 90,000 pakistani troops.

Zeemax, please post the picture of Tiger Azix being arrested, you can see a wet burka at the same place that you have identified for the indian soldier.

For a long time the Tiger Aziz will be worshipped in the madrassas of pakistan.

A great pak hero

burka mulla options

Pakistanis are ashamed of the burka mulla, but here are a few ways to make it into a success

1. Auction the burka at Christies. This will be the first time in history a jihad preaching mullah tried to save his life. This event in at par with the demolition of bhumian buddahas by jinnah-islamists. The burka is more than likely to be purchased by the British museum.

2. Create new line of escape burkas. These could be in military fatigue to make the escape easier.

3. Create a new line of mullah burkas, all in dark black, with a cut out to show the beard so that the people know that it is a mulla in burka.

All of the above can show that the land of TNt is setting new trends in islamic fashion.

Today's Bomb Blast.....A Bomb A Day Makes a Pakis day...

ISLAMABAD (Reuters) - A suicide car bomber rammed a paramilitary checkpost killing four people in Pakistan's North Waziristan tribal region on Friday, the latest attack in a wave of violence sweeping the country in recent weeks.

"Four people including a paramilitary soldier and three civilians have been killed," a security official told Reuters.

Six people, including three civilians, were wounded, he added.

A wave of bomb attacks has swept across Pakistan, killing more than 180 people, since the army's siege and assault earlier this month on the Lal Masjid or Red Mosque complex, a militant stronghold in the capital, Islamabad.

While militants are believed to be avenging the mosque assault, pro-Taliban fighters have abandoned a peace pact in North Waziristan, adding to concern over a deteriorating security situation in the volatile northwest.

Reactions from All Weather Friend...With second thoughts....

July 20, 2007
CHINA has condemned a suicide bomb attack in Pakistan that targeted a convoy of Chinese workers and left at least 27 Pakistanis dead.

"China strongly condemns the terror attack (in Pakistan) and expresses its grief over those killed and offers its condolences to their relatives and to those injured," the foreign ministry said in a short statement today.

The attack was a reminder for China of the harsh realities of becoming a global power.

In Pakistan's southwestern industrial town of Hub, a suicide car bomber last night blew himself up as a convoy of Chinese citizens and security forces passed by, killing at least 30 Pakistanis but no Chinese nationals.

Police who were guarding the Chinese convoy were among those killed, according to authorities in Pakistan who said the bombing was a suicide attack.

The attack comes as Pakistan's President Pervez Musharraf, under fire from multiple suicide bombers, pressured by the White House and facing a key court ruling, was today set for one of the toughest days of his eight-year rule.

A wave of suicide attacks sparked by an army raid General Musharraf ordered on a pro-Taliban mosque last week reached a new, bloody peak yesterday, claiming 51 lives and bringing the death toll from the backlash of violence to almost 200.

Apart from the Chinese convoy bombing, there were two other attacks - bombers targeted an army mosque and a police college.

Hardline mullahs today, the Islamic day of prayer, were set to call for the downfall of the US-backed military ruler a week after protesters enraged by the Red Mosque raid burnt him in effigy, along with a puppet of Uncle Sam.

But while General Musharraf has repeatedly vowed to step up the hunt on militants in the country's lawless Afghan border regions, the United States has challenged him to do more - and threatened to go it alone if he doesn't.

Analysts and officials in Pakistan say that Islamic and tribal militants are attacking Chinese in order to harm Islamabad's relations with China, its powerful ally and biggest military supplier.

Yesterday's attack came two weeks after China demanded better protection for its citizens in Pakistan following the killing of three Chinese men in the northwestern city of Peshawar by suspected Islamic militants.

In February last year, three Chinese engineers working for a cement plant were gunned down in Baluchistan, the same province as where yesterday's attack occurred.

The attacks will come as a stark reminder to Beijing of the risks inherent in China’s bolder approach to the extension of its interests and influence beyond its borders, particularly in Asia and Africa. More than 4 million Chinese now work overseas.

Pakistani security forces have stepped up protection for the 3000 Chinese working on development projects across the country since the siege and assault on Islamabad’s radical Red Mosque.

The violent end to the siege was triggered by the kidnapping of a group of Chinese women by women students from a seminary linked to the Red Mosque. Leaders of the mosque, who modelled themselves on the Taliban, accused the six Chinese of working as prostitutes in a massage parlour.

Pakistan traditionally has enjoyed close ties with China. However, relations were strained when members of the Muslim separatist movement in the Chinese provinces of Xinjiang and Uighur sought refuge in Pakistan’s tribal region after fleeing from Afghanistan in 2001. They became closely linked to Pakistan’s radical Islamists.

Islamic militants loyal to al-Qa'ida swore revenge after Pakistan handed over to China a number of senior Muslim leaders captured in Kashmir in 2002.

They included Ismail Kadir, the Uighur leader who has led a violent struggle to set up an independent East Turkestan state in predominantly Muslim Xinjiang, which borders Pakistan, Afghanistan and restive Central Asian states. In January 2004 China drew up a list of militants linked to al-Qaeda who operated within Pakistan’s tribal areas. Many are believed to have been killed in Pakistani military operations in Waziristan.

China says that its role overseas is to promote neighbourliness and understanding, in countries as diverse as Angola and Antigua. However, the main beneficiaries of China’s overseas investment are poorer nations, such as Sudan, that are rich in the natural resources China needs.
There is a growing sense of unease in countries that are beneficiaries of China’s overseas investment about what many perceive as a new form of colonialism.

China wants its Third World friends to act in accordance with the spirit of the struggle against colonialism and hegemony, but has difficulty grasping the idea that increasing numbers of people believe that it lacks sincerity.

The antagonism ranges from rage felt by Islamic radicals in Pakistan over China’s policies to suppress pro-independence Muslim movements, to resentment among small merchants and tribesmen in Kenya who see their jobs and businesses being taken over by Chinese contractors.

Ahmed Rashid, a political analyst in Pakistan, said that anger was simmering over perceptions that the Chinese were stealing their livelihoods. “The Baluch feel that all the contracts are going to Chinese and they use only their own labour,� he said. Chinese contractors bring in many of their own engineers and labour.

They live in tight-knit communities that operate in a virtual vacuum inside whichever country they have been assigned. That breeds resentment among locals who fear for their livelihoods and are suspicious of outsiders.

In April nine Chinese workers and 65 Ethiopians were killed when guerrillas attacked an oil installation near the Somali border. Rebels abducted a Chinese mining executive searching for uranium in the Sahara, adding Niger to the list of states where China’s hunger for minerals has led its nationals into trouble.

In a recent report, Stratford, the security consultancy, said: “China now faces the dilemma of any country that undertakes an active foreign policy, particularly one based on the acquisition of resources. It must now decide how much to get involved in other countries’ internal issues.�

The idea is anathema to Beijing, which regards non-interference in other countries’ affairs as a fundamental plank of its foreign policy.

- The Times, AFP, AP

Dacca Syndrome

In the military parlance surrender without fight is called Dacca syndrome, named after the surrender of 90,000 pakistani troops by general Niazi.

Pk army is a latin army that cannot fight a war, they can only rule the civilian population.

A few suicide bombs in the past few days, the generals are back talking with the taliban on surrender terms, the Dacca syndrome is at work.

Then there is the 7 chinese captured by the lal majids. None of them were killed and all back at work. The 7 were rounded up from 7 brothels in Islamabad, one cannot believe that the army has given visas to several chinese to operate brothels.

Pakistan reduced to Sindh

Pakistan was created for the muslims of India. Those who embraced this idea are called mohajirs and most of them are in sindh.

Hence it is the realisation of the vision of Jinnah that only sindh should be part of pakistan, that si where all the mohajirs are, the true believers of jinnahs idea.

Going back to the Jinnah doctrine of TNT, helps to identify the configuration of pakistan after its iraquisation.

NWFP to afghanistan where most are pushtoons
POK to India
Pakistan to be re-named as Sindh.

this will be consistent with Jinnahs vision, at last there is a home for indian muslims.

Benefits of carpet bombing

Many reports say that some parts tora bora mountains are greener than ever before. The carpet bombings have created craters where water has accumulated leading to re-growth of plants and animal lives. The nomadic tribes of afghanistan are finding the mountain ranges more inhabitable than before.

Waziristan is another backward area where a little of soil conditioning by B52s will be most welcome.

Any tru lover of pakistan like tahmed cannot seriously deny some economic prosperity for that region.

Beginning of the end.

US is slowly softening the pak elites that bombing of waziristan is only weeks away. Predator UAV was over the lal masjid, that is the first right step, then the missiles will strike at the jihadis.

The only complaint I have with the predator is that the missiles on board are named hell-fire, if only the americans could re-name it as houri-gift, no jihadi will complain.

#517 by harish_hyd

PS: Could even be a Jihadi. Terrorists wearing police/army uniforms is not uncommon.

Thanks zeemax for the picture of the dead indian police man and the detail with which you have analyzed the dead. This is what I had been always telling on chowk, jihadi takes pleasure in seeing the dead, he is a killer, a general purpose killer and his joy first is in seeing the sight of death and probably he will go to the jinnahic heaven with that last scene in his mind.

Thanks zeemax, more of the pakistanis on chowk like the tahmeds will be happy with your pictures. These are the people who perpetuate this by denying the satanic verses. It is they who pose as koran experts while the people who spent their lives learning and interpreting koran run the lal majids and jihadi trainings.

#499 by zeemax

Looks more like a Kashmiri Muslim (skin color and beard), probably a policeman. Hindu cops are not allowed to grow beards (except during wars) or in extreme climatic conditions like in Siachen.

Giuliani on Pakistan & Musharaff.........

By Susan Page, USA TODAY
CEDAR RAPIDS, Iowa — Former New York City mayor Rudy Giuliani said Thursday that the United States should do more to capture Osama bin Laden and dismantle al-Qaeda operations in Afghanistan and northern Pakistan — even at the expense of an ally, Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf.
While he wasn't explicitly critical of President Bush, the Republican presidential contender outlined in an interview with USA TODAY a more aggressive stance and a different emphasis than the administration has pursued in the region that spawned the terror network.
The United States has been distracted "for a while" by military setbacks and political heat surrounding the Iraq war, Giuliani said, not focusing enough on al-Qaeda's resurgence in Afghanistan and Pakistan.
"This cannot be like a horror movie," he said. "You know, in the horror movie you kill the monster, and the hand re-emerges. And if you're not looking, the hand grows back and then the monster's there again. That cannot be allowed to happen."
Giuliani, who has led the GOP presidential field in the USA TODAY/Gallup Poll through the year, was interviewed near the end of a two-day campaign trip to Iowa. He visited an ethanol plant and promised as president to appoint "strict constructionist" judges who would not reinterpret the Constitution.
His presidential campaign has been tied largely to his leadership in New York after the 2001 attack on the World Trade Center. Giuliani was most animated when he turned in the interview to the subject of battling Islamic extremists, with a copy of the National Intelligence Estimate that was released Tuesday at his side. They were his first substantive comments on the formal assessment of the nation's terrorist threat.
The report warned that al-Qaeda has significantly strengthened its operations over the past two years, creating a "heightened threat environment" for the United States.
Some of Giuliani's comments echoed critics of the war in Iraq who argue that the invasion drew attention and resources away from the battle against the home base of al-Qaeda, which carried out the 9/11 attacks. Giuliani, however, called the Iraq war "enormously important," but he said other challenges from Islamic terrorism also demanded attention.
"I said it a long time ago … America is too consumed with Iraq," he said. "We've got to be patient and committed (in Iraq), but we've got to multitask. We've got to have conversations beyond Iraq. We've got to talk about Iran — Iran is more dangerous than Iraq — and we have to get the job done in Afghanistan and in Pakistan."
He said that might involve reorganizing United Nations forces, committing more U.S. resources, considering U.S.-led airstrikes on al-Qaeda targets in northern Pakistan or taking a tougher line with Musharraf — or pursuing all those steps.
Giuliani expressed little patience with the Pakistani president, who last fall brokered a cease-fire with tribal leaders in northern Pakistan that let them police their own territories. The White House said this week that the deal helped open the way for al-Qaeda to rebuild its infrastructure.
"Musharraf is important to us to the extent that he helps us remove this existential threat to him and to us," Giuliani said.
"And to the extent that he recognizes that it's an existential threat to us and to him, he's valuable to us. To the extent that he doesn't, he isn't," Giuliani said.

I'd say: "let them come"..this should have happened from day one instead of the paper-sipahis like G & J's antics. When was the last time freedom was "awarded" by transfering the title-deed with a mortgage in perpetuity?

Such a battle was left unfinished in 1857 due the complicity of the elite of those days.The Western & the westoxicated ones must be removed from the hearts & minds, besides the property, of all muslims.

Aey taae-r-e lahhotee, Uus rizque sey maut achhee
Jis rizque sey aatee ho, parvaaz meiN kotaa-hee"
.............................ALLAMA Iqbal.

US military action possible inside Pakistan: US
WASHINGTON: The White House on Thursday refused to rule out striking at suspected terrorist targets inside Pakistan and would not say whether US forces would first seek permission from Islamabad.

Asked whether US President George W Bush had ruled out US military action inside Pakistan, spokesman Tony Snow replied: 'We never rule out any options, including striking actionable targets.'

Asked whether Bush would first seek authorization from Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf, Snow told reporters, 'Those are matters that are best not discussed publicly.'

Washington in recent days has sharply criticized Musharraf's truce with leaders in Pakistan's tribal areas, where Al-Qaeda and Taliban militants were believed hiding, calling on him to take aggressive military action.

And Bush's top counter-terrorism adviser at the White House recently suggested that the United States did not get all of the cooperation it hoped for from Pakistan in the global war on terrorism.

At the same time, the White House has been praising Musharraf personally.

'President Musharraf has put his life on the line and has been a very important ally in the war on terror,' Snow said as Bush travelled here to make remarks on the federal budget.

'It's also clear that Taliban and al Qaeda, in the northwest territories and the federally administered tribal areas, have begun to put on operations that threaten the government of Pakistan itself,' he added.

'President Musharraf, having tried one approach, in terms of dealing with the tribal leaders, is now going to have to be more aggressive and is being more aggressive moving forces into the region to deal with the security problems there,' he said.

Re: # 499

Zeemax,

The sob in the pix is a terrorist. I dont need to say it's a Muslim guy who's killed in an encounter by policemen.

P.S: Why those two UP queens fancy you?

zee

check your message box

#510 Posted by stuka,

You're an Indian. Tell me if I'm wrong in #508.

Abey Zeemax, tu hamesha itna khaffa kyon rehta hai yaar?

#508 Posted by zeemax on July 19, 2007 1:48:40 pm

if wishes were horses, pakis would ride...and aunty aziz wouldn't need a burkha..and kashmir would have been pakiland by now..

#507 Posted by arjun2,

Abey chutya ... agar Aghanistan Pakistan ki gaand mein ghus gaya to kya Pakistan/Afghanistan dono mil kar bharat ki gaand nahin maarein gey?

Now eff off.

#499 Posted by zeemax on July 19, 2007 11:59:29 am

so will kashmir banega pakistan NOW....? when when when?

haha..keep dreaming.in reality, you're closer to a pakistan banega afghanistan..

hamidm2 mian: # don't you think you have done enough damage for one lifetime.....the thought process you support has resulted in the total death and destruction of one country - iraq.......now you seemed to be hell bent on destroying another - pakistan........

.....your logic is backwards.....you think people should be killed because they and their like are carrying out suicide bombings.......actually, it is the other way around......people are carrying out suicide bombings, because they are their like are being killed.....

......this does not justify the suicide bombings......but it certainly explains the only way of controlling them......and that is to stop relying on military power to counter ideologies....everytime a govt. attacks it ends up killing many innocents.......which only worsens the problem...

.......my suggestion to you would be to enjoy your life in prosperous detroit or dearborn or chicago.......go out with the sprinkler.........and, for heavens sake, realize how upside down the ideas you pushed happened to be in iraq.......

between your militancy and that of the suicide bombers, the rest of us pakistanis will and are getting crushed......the, "you are with us or against" policy did not work........life is not that black and white.....

#504 Posted by hamidm2,

It is no joy for me. But if this has to be so, so may it be. I shall have no regrets.

zeemax,

..... i see you are getting quite a adrenalin rush out of this carnage - enjoy !

#499 is horifying ... I know ... but that's what happens with arrogance and war. War is not for the squeamish.

#500 Posted by hamid_murtad,

No I am not. This is reality. Have you ever seen a freshly killed dead body? This is what you will see all around now.

#497 Posted by hamid_murtad,

Kohat Cantt.

That's right. Kohat Cantonment (kuttas).

Re: # 499

zeemax,

you are a very sick man ......... get some help

#476 Posted by jayp,

You're welcome.

In fact in return for your gratitude, I will post my very favourite which no one here has seen before:



See that stain on this s.o.b's pant seat? The hindu s.o.b defecated before dying. Probably twirled a few times to land in this position after getting his ass ventilated by bullets.

So don't jump up and down too much like the monkey you are.

Bravo, I couldn't have said any better. Only a heartless can support/justify DICTATORS action.

zeemax,

.... this is why the lal masjid operation was necessary - you cannot and must not negotiate with terrorosts ..... and this is why god made daisy cutters ...... using the colin powell doctrine and the anvil and hammer approach, i think it is time to civilize the barbarians

KOHAT CANTT: A bomb blast in a mosque of Pathan Lines in Kohat Cantt. killed 15, including two children, and wounded several persons Thursday night.

For those who may feel offended by my explicit posts, remember Jeremiah!

#488 Posted by hamid_murtad,

Lal Masjid will always be red ... regardless of whether they paint it green, white or purple. Are you that dumb to even understand that?

But no ... you're not dumb. In fact you're very smart. But just arrogant.

However, that arrogance will doubtless be separated from your brain along with your head.

You bugger hamid_murtad ... do you even remember Kohat? You have mentioned it a few times. It is just 30 kilometers from Peshawar now with the tunnel. Today's attack there (the third today) was on an army mosque. You still get it or not?

Re: # 489

i can wiggle my ears and recite sura yasin (backwards).... what can you do ?

The Fedayeen march is on towards settled areas. Those bastards and westoxicated intellectuals who didn't believe me when I said if they touch a single burqa-clad, they will be slaughtered. In the end these bastards ended up killing over a thousand of them.

Now, they will not spare ANYONE who supported that action.

Hamid_Murtad,

These tribals were your best friends and totally loyal to Pakistan. When you sent them to Kashmir in 1948, they went and captured upto Srinagar Airport for you, but you betrayed them and they got slaughtered. Then you sent them for Afghan Jihad and they won it for you, but you betrayed them again when you allowed US to bomb their households. Then you convinced them Kargil was a good idea and they climbed it for you and held those peaks for six-months against impossible odds, but you backtracked and withdrew.

Now you stormed their women and children in a madrassa and killed them all. Over a thousand.

What do you want them to do?

#483 Posted by cliftonbridge,

Well ... it wasn't exactly behind the Waldorf Astoria, but in the deep South when this Southern Belle in her Southern drawl had said to me the Punjabi equivalent of:

Mennoo marooooo

hamidm2:487
So what else can you do, you Kanjaroon...after all it is nice that I was able to show you your auquaat.

zeemax,

here is one who needs to be 'tied down' so that she won't go out and kill innocent people ..... maybe you can help her out by admitting her to your harem as a kaneez :

BBC today:
A female survivor of this month's violent storming by Pakistani forces of Islamabad's Red Mosque has spoken of how she wanted to be a suicide bomber.
The 18-year-old told the BBC Urdu Service that she was not held hostage by militants but had willingly remained behind during the week-long siege.

The woman, who asked not to be named, said she was prepared to carry out a suicide attack to defend the mosque.

She said her ambition now was to set up a new radical seminary that would be dedicated to teaching jihad, or holy war, in Pakistan.

echo,

..... i just wanted to know what you had in mind for these people - the kanjaroon and the cantonment kuttay ? ..... if you are not nice to me i will have you banned from chowk again - i know people in high places

hamidm2:
Please go back to your Kalloo version of George Carlin KanjarR-show.

You sound stupid acting serious.

zeemax,

your team just scored thirty more points ..... if they had managed to kill a chinese they owuld have received a 100 point bonus .... i guess you are winning .....

HUB: The blast at RCD Highway in Balochistan’s Hub town Thursday claimed 30 lives including eight policemen, while over 30 were wounded in the incident, sources said

Police have announced Rs 3,00,000 assistance and jobs for the families of eight deceased policemen.

According to reports a bomb was planted in a car parked at the RCD Highway in Hub. The bomb went off when a convoy of Chinese engineers was passing through the area, reports said.

The vehicle carrying the Chinese however passed unscathed from the place, while four police mobile vans behind the convoy were caught in the blast. After the blast the panic-stricken security guards of Chinese engineers and policemen opened indiscriminate firing killing and wounding several nearby people.

echoboom,

"Laanut on the pups that the bitches form the Cantonments & colonies littored"

are you talking about these people?

http://dailytimes.com.pk/sunday/default.aspx?c=eye_spy_a.html

.......paki stan would be an awfully dull place if all of them left, or were killed by your jihadi friends who feel jilted by their boyfriends and quadruped lovers ........ as gifted as the girls of jamia hafsa might be, i think there is something to be said about deodrant and blow dryers .... no?

#463

i will have to defer ofcourse to your superior knowledge of the tie me down fetishes of women in every corner of the globe.

Dont tell me you used to shag behind the waldorf too at the turn of the last century :)

"The fact is, we were harassing them in Afghanistan, we're harassing them in Iraq, we're harassing them in other ways, non-militarily, around the world. And the answer is, every time you poke the hornet's nest, they are bound to come back and push back on you. That doesn't suggest to me that we shouldn't be doing it."

- Frances Fragos Townsend, President George W Bush's
homeland security adviser

Re: # 475

That is the USP of "Visit Pakistan Year". 72 houris only on offer there.......Since the response has been overwhelming they are considering reducing houris and adding a few Tahmeds......:)

I see from the posts below that pandit-hates come in three's now: Jay Thakeray the complete lunatic, and his two trainees arjun and chennai.

#478 Good. The US will pay to perform police functions that Musharraf has failed to do.

And when it is all over - Pakistan will still be there, and alive and well and prospering!!

And you will still be rotting in your measly little world of the Indian pandit-hate!!

VISIT PAKISTAN YEAR

Zeemax, you better change the picture and put pakistan instead to dissuade people coming to pakistan. But then again, being a true muslim why should you prevent a few thousand jihadis attaining heaven.

from dawn of today


Ms Townsend, who launched the intelligence report, was asked about the possibility of sending troops to the tribal belt at three different occasions.

Soon after she launched the report, she was asked, “Why should the Americans citizens not say, why don’t we go into Pakistan and deal with it that way?�

“There’s no question the president has made perfectly clear if we had actionable targets anywhere in the world, putting aside whether it was Pakistan or any place else, we would pursue those targets,� she replied.

In an interview to Fox News on Wednesday morning, she was asked if the US thought President Pervez Musharraf was capable of taking care of Al Qaeda and Taliban activities in the tribal areas. Washington believed he was, she said.

“But make no mistake – the president has been clear – job number one is protecting the American people. And we will do what’s necessary, taking no options off the table to do that,� she added.

Responding to yet another question on the same issue, she said if sending troops was what was required, the US would do so.

Daisy cutters for madrassa graduation.

It has emerged that one of the reasons the madrassa are resisting registration is the plan by the US to give each madrassa daisy cutters during their graduation. The poor jihadis will not have to travel far on their way to heaven.

What is un-islamic in all the hue and cry about the lal majid slaughter is the accusation that military did something wrong. In fact they were only helping the jihadis by delivering shahdat inside the masjid. Some reading of koran says that the number of houris will be doubled if the shehdat happens in a mosque.

May be the local koran specialist tahmed can clarify this.

Thanks zeemax for the picture about india.

It is only you trying to promote visit to india. The whole world media, CNN to the local aussie TV is [romoting visits to the Mosques of pakistan, to see the weapons the jinnah - islamists worship and pray to in pakistan.

The jihadists of the world are coming to terror central, the islamabad, and no wonder the masjid is called lal masjid, teh blood of the jihadis slaughtered by the fellow muslims have made it lal, red.

At least one mosque has got the apt name, but how about islam, which means peace, well it is time for a name change to the religion.

#474 Posted by Chennai on July 19, 2007 4:26:41 am

they give out 72 virgins instead of peanuts on board PIA?

Re: # 473

Visit Pakiland and then a direct connect to 72 houris.......

#472 Posted by Chennai on July 19, 2007 3:42:11 am

of course...after all, it IS visit pakiland year...

More people want to come to Pakistan.........

CNN) -- U.S. forces should go into Pakistan to rout al Qaeda from the safe haven it has found in the mountains on the border with Afghanistan, a co-chairman of the Iraq Study Group said.


Pakistani army soldiers patrol in the tribal area of North Waziristan along the Afghan border Wednesday.

Former Rep. Lee Hamilton, who also served as the vice chairman of the 9/11 commission, says the Iraq war distracted the United States when it had al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden on the run in the tribal region between Afghanistan and Pakistan.

He says it's now time to finish the job.

"This has to be carefully calibrated, worked out with the Pakistanis, but I am very concerned that you have a safe haven in Pakistan today where they (al Qaeda) can regroup, rethink, and get ready for more attacks," Hamilton said on CNN's "Newsroom" on Wednesday.

Declassified portions of the National Intelligence Estimate released Tuesday reported that al Qaeda has "protected or regenerated key elements" of its ability to attack the United States while in this region.

Some intelligence analysts believe bin Laden and his second in command, Ayman al-Zawahiri, are hiding in western Pakistan.

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"If there's anything we should have learned, it's that we must not let al Qaeda have a sanctuary, which they certainly do in Pakistan today," Hamilton said. Watch Hamilton discuss possible U.S. options »

The United States has accused Pakistan of allowing al Qaeda and the Taliban to have free rein in the region after it pulled out some of its forces in a deal with pro-Taliban tribal chiefs last year.

Under that agreement, the tribal leaders agreed not to harbor any Taliban or al Qaeda terrorists.

Fran Townsend, President Bush's homeland security adviser, said Wednesday "that agreement has failed."

After last week's deadly siege at the Red Mosque in Islamabad that pitted radical Islamists against Pakistan's military government forces, Pakistani President Gen. Pervez Musharraf vowed to "fight against extremism and terrorism no matter what province."

"We will finish it off in every corner of the country," he said.

The United States will keep "working with our Pakistani allies to make sure the tribal area is denied to al Qaeda as a safe haven," Townsend said on CNN's "American Morning."

Hamilton criticized the Pakistani president for keeping U.S. forces out of the region.

"I know Musharraf is described as a great ally of the United States, he's been helpful in some ways, but the fact that he has kept us away from going after these sanctuaries I find unacceptable," the former congressman from Indiana said.


"I think we have to find ways and means, perhaps it's use of covert actions, perhaps it's use of special operations, perhaps it's the pursuit of the Taliban when they're in Afghanistan, to let us go after them as they move back into Pakistan.

"Whatever it is, I do not find acceptable a sanctuary for al Qaeda in Pakistan. We have to be able to go after them." E-mail to a friend

A Bomb a day keeps Pakis at bay.....

Two Pakistan bomb attacks kill 33

Two bombs exploded in Pakistan today, one in the south and the other in the northwest, killing at least 32 people, most of them police.

A wave of bomb attacks since a siege and assault on a militant mosque stronghold in Islamabad this month has swept northwestern Pakistan, killing close to 150 people.

But today, a bomb blast killed at least 25 in a market place in the southern town of Hub, on the border between Sindh and Baluchistan provinces, near the city of Karachi. Seven of the dead were policemen. More than 20 people were wounded, some of them seriously. Police were still investigating whether it was a remote-controlled bomb or a suicide attack.
It was the first such attack in southern Pakistan during this recent wave. It was unclear whether it was related to the Islamist militant backlash against the storming of Islamabad's Red Mosque, or was linked to a long-running separatist movement in Baluchistan.

The government said 102 people had been killed in the storming of the mosque. Many of the victims came from the volatile northwest, most of them followers of cleric brothers advocating a militant brand of Islam reminiscent of the Taliban in Afghanistan.

In the far northwest, a car bomber blew himself up at a police training centre in the city of Hangu early today, killing at least seven people. The bomber tried to enter the police training centre just as young recruits were going in for training.

Hangu, which itself has a history of sectarian violence, is close to Pakistan's lawless tribal regions on the Afghan border, known as hotbeds of support for al Qaeda and Taliban militants.

A large number of al-Qaeda fighters and their allies fled to Pakistan's tribal areas after US-led forces toppled the Taliban regime in Afghanistan in 2001.

President Pervez Musharraf said yesterday he had no intention of declaring a state of emergency to counter the growing insecurity, and gave assurances that elections due later this year would go ahead as planned.

The only good macaca is a dead one, and all the poor b'tard gets is cow piss in afterlife before being reborn as a cockroach:

Re: # 467

Japyp

Why not blame Adam and Eve for these problems. Poor Jinnah wanted a dominian state where ALL wud have lived as equal citizens, sadly it was not to be.

Anger displacement helps nobody and solves no problems. Real culprits in Pak history are Establishment (Army+Beuracracy), Mullas (JI, JUI etc etc) and Saudi petro dollars. These Fundo crackpots are the b@stard children of the Hameed Luls (gul), Zia lul phuck etc etc, if there is blame to be shared then it is the Qazi's, Sami lul phuks who need to be singled out for their connivance.

A good day for islam,

There are millions of jihadis in Waziristan waiting to go to heaven. Even on chowk, at last the educated pakistanis are accepting that a US backed military action to send the jihadis to heaven is the most appropriate islamic action. Even the mullahs seem to support that.

So the good day for islam is round the corner, when the gates of heaven will be chocker block with pakistanis.

That will be a good day for Jinnah in his grave, he has sent more pakistanis to heaven than any one in history.

No wonder he is called Qaid

#463 Posted by cliftonbridge,

2. tie your women to a tree if they want dignity or emancipation.

But I thought they loved that sort of a thing in the parts where you live ..... I mean ... err .. maybe not trees but beds, certainly ... :)

Re: # 118

defamer partywatch
The 'Captivity' Premiere Party: A Delightful Evening Of Meticulously Planned Outrageousness








Too squeamish to attend the Captivity premiere party that After Dark Films provocateur Courtney Solomon recently promised would be so debauched that it would likely bring about the total collapse of Western Civilization ourselves, we dispatched unshockable Defamer Special Correspondent on Looking Into The Eyes of Evil and Laughing Nick Malis to Privilege last night, hoping that he would emerge from the ritualistic promotional flaying with enough of his sanity intact to file a report on his experience. Luckily for us, he did survive the ordeal, though not without some psychological scarring associated with prolonged exposure to a carefully coordinated attempt to offend his sensibilities. His report follows, along with a link to our photo gallery of the event (which you can skip to by clicking here, if you're the impatient type.)

If you're wondering why all the hardware stores in LA were sold out of electrical tape, it's because much of it was stuck to the nipples of the models at the Captivity premiere party last night. That's right, I was lucky enough to be on the list for this little shindig at Privilege, and I was curious if After Dark CEO Courtney Solomon could deliver on his New York Times promise to throw the most outrageous bash ever.

So did he? In a word, no. The whole thing gave off a distinctly opening-credits-of-Mindfreak vibe, with plenty of leather and piercing to go around. But it came off as silly and forced, not dark and scary. Consider these ghastly delights:

* One girl was chained to a spinning table while another girl pretended to whip her. Shocking!

* Suicide Girls roamed the party wearing little besides the aforementioned electrical tape. My delicate sensibilities!

* Greased-up Bikini clad ladies wrestled each other. Oh, the horror!

* A "needle play" booth, where some guy stuck pointed quills into the backs of willing victims. Mildly disturbing!

* Dave Navarro wearing a tight tanktop. Okay, that actually was scary.

The best part of the evening was watching all the open-collared agent/producer types try to hit on the Goth chicks. I've never seen so many Bluetooth headsets and leather corsets in one place.



However, the most-asked question of the night: Where were the celebs? The biggest star there was the fat guy from Borat. You know things aren't going well when the Bai Lings and Traci Binghams of the world don't show up to your party. Elisha Cuthbert couldn't even be bothered to attend, and she's the freakin' star of the movie!



But so what if the Captivity party wasn't the Grand Guignol display everyone had hoped for? There was still an open bar and girls with electrical tape on their boobies. I, for one, will take what I can get.

galleryPost('captivityparty', 4, 'Captivity Party');Captivity Party









Previously: 'Captivity': The Predictably Outrageous Premiere Party [Defamer]

People in Pakistan should ask for stability first. If it means martial law, so be it. The dangers in NWFP are too great to be taken lightly. These extremists could engulf the whole nation into killing fields a lot worse than what we saw in Yugoslavia.

Democracy and general elections can wait until such time when the country is at peace with itself. Pakistan is not there yet.

None of the mainstream political parties has put forth any solutions to the growing extremists problem that Pakistan faces. They are staying away claiming that it is the military problem, and when democracy is restored, somehow all this fundamentalist talk will go away.

Actually, in the past general elections brought the country closer to fundamentalism.

If Pakistani military is unable to provide stability to this region, then the NATO forces should enter and do the work in collaboration with the Pakistani military. This is what the Chinese government is probably demanding. Pakistan is fast becoming a failed state like Sudan with one exception Pakistan is a nuclear power. If the military in Pakistan does not stop this madness then the world would easily see deaths of several thousands of people.

#456

its simplistically stated puppy ..because the concept is simple, its only your wishful thinking that makes you say otherwise.

1. death to kuffar (including shias cliftonbridges and quaid e azam types)
2. tie your women to a tree if they want dignity or emancipation.

everything else is wrapping paper. You can make khiyaali pullao but we who are less romantic can see how all roads lead to the taliban.

"Aaaayeee Barsaat toa, Barsaaat ney dil toarR diyaaaa

The Cantonment Kutttaaaas who do not utter a word against the US and keep on licking the hand that feeds them
are the haraamis of Islam & Muslims. Whatever they say means NOTHING unless they publicly denounce the western thuGGs. Utterng kufr against Mullas is a code that these Oooons Pooons will support USA against muslims. Such characters must be watched closely

Laanut on the pups that the bitches form the Cantonments & colonies littored

and now here is the heart wrenching story of the girl who loved Ghazi Abdul Rashid , the Lal Masjid, and the fundamentalists.

RUNG laey Gaa shaheedoaN ka lahoo!

Ahmed sahab,
no argument there. Although i do feel we'll be better served with a presidential form of govt...its easier for a visionary to come thru i think in a presidential form of democracy.. amreeka schtyle..but thats semantics.

abu safwan: Like karachi, in Lahore too medicine and engineering was the place of choice for the top students. But nevertheless - lawyers in Pakistan have proved that they understand the rule of law like no general - however much he struts around wearing medals and talking big - has ever understood.

I am not talking about rule by the technocrats, btw. I am talking about rule by the people, through their elected reps whom they can kick out of a job in the next elections. Who these elected reps are does not matter - perhaps we will get lucky and get a visionary elected. Perhaps we wont and will get a twit like Nawaz Sharif or BB elected. Who cares.

zeemax #454 None of the political parties is inspiring in Pakistan. The only vision their leaders have is of becoming the ruler of Pakistan. And I think most Pakistanis will agree.

Nevertheless, I am still for a democracy. Since we need it all the more given the losers we have to chose between. At least they will know that they will lose power if they foul up - rather than stay on forever like the mard-e-momins Gaddafi or like thugs like the egyptian president.

masadi #452 I forgot the fourth tier. That is for know-it-alls like you who couldnt make it to any other tier.

#445 Posted by echoboom cliffy:444
to sum up what you said:
" Quafila'a-e Hijaaz meiN, eik Hussain bhhee naheeN"...Allama Iqbal.
and that has been/ and is our misfortune.

Now there's another Hussain. Ghazi Abdul Rasheed Shaheed.

So, worry not. I'm sure Iqbal would have been glad.

#444 Posted by cliftonbridge,

Too simplistic. You can do better clifton ...

Abu Safwaan Sahib,

thoree c wazahat, train patree sey kahan uthree?

Any military exercize needs a political solution to complete the job and Eeraq is a classic example where the invading forces failed to deliver simply because they ignored political solution in favor of brute force. Maybe u misunderstood my post, I was simply reminding some pompous idiots that force is not the answer to the problem, this principle applies to ALL parties, Govt and mulla brigade. If Mush and Co are guilty of using excessive force, then the suicidal mulla brigade is equally culpable for their obscurantist, fascist behavior that promotes a culture of violence. To say or believe that the poor waziris will be able to challenge the sheer naked aggression of Nato forces is denying reality. (Tactical weapons can include nuclear weapons that can become a reality courtesy our mullas and Uncle sam.)

Japanese, Germans, Russians, Vietnamese never resorted to suicide bombings, this phenomena in recent history was started by the Tamils in Sri Lanka that came to India, Palestine, Iraq, Afganistan and now Pakistan. Yet, if you compare the loss of lives, there is no comparison when we look at the number of lives lost. Point being, we sud not push our luck, u aint seen anything yet.

#449 Posted by tahmed32,

tahmed saheb, interesting to see you cheering again for democracy when you don't support any political party in Pakistan.

16 more troops killed today in N. Waziristan by IED:

Haathi di bund which warnha sokha hunda ey, par nikalna bara aukha ...!

tahmed writes "Pakistanis are too smart to be enslaved forever by a military general, let alone a half-brained mullah."

It takes a true peon of the West first to divide up/ stratify people in tiers, then assign value judgments and all the time ignore the real problems behind the issues. The "second tier" military men could never ever have managed to encroach politically were it not for the conditions created by first the colonials and then American interference. The mullah would never have a voice politically were it not for just such adjustments carried out by those that would manipulate power in Pakistan. Were it not for colonial bs and neo-colonial horse sh**, healthy political and social institutions would have developed in Pakistan. This peon of the West, whom I hate much because of the injustice that he preaches and his support of colonization and the US elite, I hate him because he hates humanity while at the same time practicing idolatory by worshipping the US elite, will always mask the true cause in order to legitimize the barbarism of his masters....The Pakistani people, even the common man on the street has a good understanding of the shenanigans of the Americans, their history and their situation has taught them so. It didn't take Mills to explain to them that these manufactured crisis in Pakistan are just power adjustments by the Americans, their games as most of them put it....

gentlemen i gotta run but real quick

tahmed i agree 100%

abu - heartlessness stems from desperation, thats no excuse just an explaination, on both sides.

zee, i cant seem to send emails though i can get them off chowk mail :( what a sweet mug - and a musician too ? i am duly impressed :)

Ahmed sahab ..i dont know what is it like in punjab..but in khi they guys who couldn't get in to med schools, engineering schools, karachi university etc. eventually enrolled in s.m law college. Barring some exceptions, i would venture to say that 90% lawyers are 3rd tier as well. The reason they didnt become a molvi was because they couldnt wake up for fajr. Having said that i salute them for satnding up for the supremacy of law but if your rationale is that first tier from an educational point of view should rule the country than i think u r talking about a govt. of technocrats & doctors..which is an original & untested idea.

cb #444 Excellent post. The problem is the lack of a proper political system in Pakistan. Traditionally, if a man was not fit to join a professional college he would be sent to become an army officer (even the selectors at ISSB responsible for bringing in geniuses like Musharraf and Zia used to joke about this). And now one of these second-tier individuals is running the country!! Traditionally, if a man was not fit even to join the military, he would become the maulvi. And now this third-tier individuals is making a mess in the country as they try to grab power from the second tier and become khalifas.

That is where the lawyers come in, the ones in the first-tier of professionals in Pakistan. The ones who understand that the difference between a primitive society and a civilized society is the rule of law. Where no one is above the law, not even a field marshall, not even a mard-e-momin.

And there is a very real movement in Pakistan today that is led by these lawyers. So, things are not as hopeless as they seem. Pakistanis are too smart to be enslaved forever by a military general, let alone a half-brained mullah.

Clifton Khala,

It amazes me when liberals (not you) either unintentionally or because of malice focuses on fringe lunatics and presents them as voices of Islam when in fact there are numerous true scholars who have the correct understanding of Islam. E.g Jawed ahmed ghamidi comes to mind. I don’t agree with everything that he says but I think he knows more about Islam than the lunatic who prepares a 12 year old boy to blow himself up.

When you hear islamist propogating the killing of kuffar to remove kufr, how come you guys as muslims ask them “dude where r u getting this from?�, I do! Qital is allowed in Islam when an enemy attacks u, captures ur land and than start ruling on u, how is that any different from UN’s injunction of right of self-defense and right of resistance to a foreign occupation? Offensive jihaad is allowed only when there is an Islamic Empire and it rules on its people justly and than establishes its world order where there is injustice.

Please don’t be so naïve to rub it in our faces the stupidities of tribals regarding their women. You know that true Islamic scholars condemn that, Islam has given uncanny rights to women, if it didn’t than the majority of Muslim women or ALL of the educated, free muslim women would be harping on Muhammad PBUH and Islam itself. Right now its just ayan hirsi ali and wafa sultan and they are doing it because it’s a requirement of the job and their US visa. Islam is not what triabls practice, its whats in Quran and what Prophet Muhammad PBUH preached. And then there is a slight matter of ijtehaad that we have surrendered, GOD knows why.

#444 Posted by cliftonbridge

The truth is that religion is used in shameful ways to justify political and social agenda's.

Cliftonbridge, I would really like to ask you a question:

What was the political and social agenda for which Ghazi and hundreds of burqa-clad girls used their religion, and actually died for willingly?

#445

word!

cliffy:444
to sum up what you said:

" Quafila'a-e Hijaaz meiN, eik Hussain bhhee naheeN"...Allama Iqbal.


and that has been/ and is our misfortune.

re. abu , echo and zee

i am the penultimate liberal, i think i would personally rather die than kill anyone. However the world does not work on those idealistic principles and i wish it would.

The shame of pakistan is that secularists are all corrupt and islamists are all crazy and destructive. In the ideal system we would have a middle ground and hopefully exclude the worst of both ideologies.

The truth is that religion is used in shameful ways to justify political and social agenda's. I agree with echo shahabs analysis of how things came to pass. However it does not excuse whats happening now i think.

I think that education social justice and strengthening of bad institutions is key to the way forward. Afer that people have a right to chose how they want their govt to run BECAUSE at that point they will be able to govern effectively and not destructively. And be capable of critical thinking that is sorely lacking at this point.

I fundamentally disagree with the idea of ending kufr by killing kafirs in the way of God. I think its insulting to suggest that God needs muslims to kill the people he Himself has created. This ideology is key to many islamists, thats why they are so cold hearted when it comes to killing shia's or seculars or nonmuslims. And i have heard many islamists quote the quiyamat ki nishani when their women will rebel against them and monins have to tie their daughters to trees to prevent them from following the "bad" rebel women amongst them. That is the basis for why there is so much opposition to asma jehangir types and why the actual islamists at this point can not co-exist with a world where women are more than subhuman (despite exceptions like echo zee and their like)

Arif BHai,

Yarr aap achi khassii aqal-mandii kii batein kartayy kartayy patrii say utarr jatay hein. There is a lot of truth in what you are saying but your inisnuation that one tactical weapon can wipe out waziris has a logical falacy. You can kill with human beings but you don't kill A people. I think whoever has those tactical weapons have tried them in afghanistan and IRAQ and now they realize that its a war that u can't win. Muslim dynamic is a lil bit different than communism, japs, koreans and germans. Americans well the one's that have brain cells anyway are learning that you can't crush them by force just like they did with their other foes, there is gotta be a dialogue in there somewhere.

Thanks Echo for messaging me this to see if I was comfortable with it to post. That's a true gentleman. And ... people think Islamists are barbarians ...

Yes, I agree with most points.

from FP: letter to Musharraf
From: echoboom
To: zeemax
Date: Jul 18, 2007 Wed 08:55 am

Zeemax:
1. Once the Pak Govt. & the mujahideen ( now Taliban) accepted US support & weapons to drive Russians out of Afghanistan..they
were obligated to have a U.S installed government in Afghanistan. The US or the West NEVER NEVER NEVER do anything for sentimental or noble reasons. The East mistakes "friendship" as a personal obligation but the West considers such overtures as a betrayal by the person of his own people for his personal aggarandizement. { and the West is right!}.

2. The govt. was supposed to be handed over to Afghanis & not to the mercenary arabs, who the US did not like in the first place because the objectives were at loggerheads...Religion vs Nationhood.

3. Saudi Arabian Kingdom was and still is the chief culprit behind all this...they saw into it as a threat to their own monarchy. Just like abdul aziz had overthrown the rashid dynasty so Saudis thought that their dynasty would be finished off by Usama.

4. Afghans with their deep-rooted tradition of providing asylum just could not give up its arab guests..and they really wanted to and even "hinted" so many times.

5. The influence of Arabs ( read: Wahabi/salafi) in Afghanistan was used as a bulwark against Iran & when that failed they became pariahs like a failed Saddam.

6. Bombings, mosque killings, killing of Shia Doctors & prominent respected ones like Hakim Saeed struck terror in the hearts & minds of a lot of decent Qu'raan abiding folk in Pakistan..people quite good muslims but who did not make their religion
a spectacle ( maybe like you & me)..

7. It is this fear cliffy is talking about.

P.S: if you feel comfortable you may post this on front page OR send it to Cliffy.

clifton aapii,

I think bulleya has very aptly explained the dynamics of what is going on in Pakistan. People we have never in our sorry history given a chance to true democracy and whoever mentions NS and BB’s stint as democracy needs to schedule an appointment with the head doctor. When you as the PM are told who ur foreign sect., treasury sect., chief of army staff and joint chief’s of staf will be than its not a democracy it’s a sham.

Parliaments don’t have a sword hanging over their head, its usually their sword that should be able to legislate all departments with independent oversight of supreme court. This has never happened, never once tested in our country, so how can we say it won’t work when it DOES work everywhere else. Militants and extremist get notoriety when you marginalize popular public opinion.

I don’t care who you are but if you justify killing of a 7 or 14 year old under any pretence just because it suits your political ideology than there is something horribly wrong with you. That disease is on both sides of the spectrum. It’s rather sad that liberals have the same prejudices because they are supposed to be the educated one’s with their accents and deep-necklines. Jahil to jahil hay hii..magar uskii jahalat pahaRRON tak mehdood thii..iss 60 saal kay arsayy mein kitni ddaffah unhoon nayy aakar shariat nafiz karnayy ki koshish kii hay khi, lahor, isb mein? Even when Taliban was ruling Afghanistan and it was there golden era, was there any talk of imposing shariah by force? Aapp jakarr unkay bachoon, unkii auratoon koo bhoon daaloo yeah phir America sahab bahdur koo dawat doo kook ay “aayein marein bomb shehrii abadiyoon parr� too bibi harr zulm ki ayk intaha hotti hayyy or kissi muqaam parr aakar billi ka bacha bhii panja marta hay.

#431
echo chacha did you cc me? :)

:) i could work with you, but you are only representative of islamists on the internet. On the other hand i am representative of most seculars in real life , are people like me not good enough?

431:zeemax
check message

#435 Posted by cliftonbridge,

If the islamic movement was headed by people who saw a constructive and not insulting role ...

Are people like me good enough? How many do you think are there?

In continuum of #431, following is apt for the Wazirs and the Mehsuds:

"Lo woh bhi keh rahey hain bey nang-o-naam hai;
Yeh jaanta agar tau lutata na ghar ko mein"

(For special consideration of echoboom)

tahmed i am going through what can best be described as a transitional phase, i am no longer a resident and i chose a stop gap job right after fellowship so i could breathe for a year. Why i am addicted to the internet i dont know.

zee i am thinking very rationally i only want good things to happen to the tribals who are men AND women. I dont think its any reward to live in talibans afghanistan and there is no point pretending the govt they want to see is any different from that.

With the current social and literacy climate we can not hope for anything better, unless we truly embrace social progression. Our institutions may be crap but destroying them and accepting the unbalanced raj of misogynist radical blood lusting lunatics is a pathetic replacement.

We have to strengthen our people and our institutions. If the islamic movement was headed by people who saw a constructive and not insulting role for women and monorities i;d be all for it even if it meant mandatory headscarves which i dont like. But this is far worse than that, look at these people and try telling me you can distinguish them from the taliban. You cant. They shoot girl children just for going to school across the border. How does that happen?

You are making the mistake of assuming that because islamic principles are good that the people advocating them are also good, or honest, or not cruel or misogynist. I dont know why you persist with that notion despite all evidence to the contrary.

#433 Posted by echoboom,

Echo please comment on #431.

Zeemax/cliftonbridge
Please use message service...and don't forget to c.c your best friend.

"bulleya but democracy will elect the PPP and we saw the religious right attacking them too......"

pakistani elections can never put one party in power..... ppp will win around 30-35% of the votes.....all pml factions will total 30-35%......maulvis will get around 10-15%......mqm will 10(?)%......and provincial parties and smaller parties will get 5-10%........

hence ppp will always have to be in alliance, and once any party is in power, it will have to cater to the will of its voters.....

"i agree in principle to what you are saying but is it possible to get the jihadi's to lay their arms down or even their supporters to lay their arms down and support democracy in pakistan?"

jihadis are a tiny microscopic minority in pakistan.....way less than 1%......there impact is a lot higher, because one only needs one explosion, by one person make an impact......

......the maulvi parties are not jihadis.....they just want shariah, but are not militant.....mma has been running nwfp and baluchistan for years now, however, they have not killed anyone.......

........in addition, jihadis are not interested in killing fellow pakistanis......up til, paksitan's policy in waziristan, and in support of usa ater 9/11, the only religious violence inside pakistan was shia sunni terrorism carried out by tiny terrorist groups.....

suicide bombings were unknown to pakistan.....no one ever targeted pakistani soldiers......if there were explosions in pakistanis, many were traced back to RAW etc......

the jihadis are interested in fighting americans in afghanistan.......not pakistanis in pakistan....they don't want to take over the pakistan govt. etc......

the mma wants to get into power, through elections, and impose shariah.....it is there right, if they get elected.....however, they are not against democracy.....

there is very little following in support of militant religion inside pakistan.......however, if the govt. is unelected and it attacks madrassahs militantly and joins totally with usa in bombing its own people, then public opinion gets divided......much like you are seeing on this site......

there is a middle road to most issues.......radicalizing the country, to the point where sensible people actually start supporting killing of its citizens (be they conservative or religious) is a recipe for disaster......

#429 Posted by cliftonbridge,

Cliftonbridge, do think rationally. Let's forget about Taliban and Afghanistan for a moment. Let's talk about Pakistan.

These tribals were your best friends and totally loyal to Pakistan. When you sent them to Kashmir in 1948, they went and captured upto Srinagar Airport for you, but you betrayed them and they got slaughtered. Then you sent them for Afghan Jihad and they won it for you, but you betrayed them again when you allowed US to bomb their households. Then you convinced them Kargil was a good idea and they climbed it for you and held those peaks for six-months against impossible odds, but you backtracked and withdrew. Now you stormed their women and children and killed them all.

Do you really think that if now they have turned on the establishment of Pakistan, they do not have enough reason to?

But I believe they are still loyal to Pakistan BUT with the difference that now they will first avenge fully, and next they will have a major part in how this country is run. I don't think anything less than that will do.

And believe me, they have plenty of support.

cb: I can understand "welay lok" (unemployed folks) spending time on chowk making Islamic Castles in Flying Carpets in Air and Maharishi Chilli making Indian IT Billionaires in Levitating Cross-Legged Poses.

But how does a Medical Resident (who sometimes are on call 48 hour at a stretch) find time for this? (Not that I am saying you shouldnt waste free time on chowk with us "welay lok", mind you.)

zee i am not phobic at all of islam but of the islamic state as imposed by the same people who just did a trial run across the border and destroyed afghanistan and humanity in afghanistan. Is that what you want in my ever suffering country too?

In continuation of # 420 (how appropriate) for the ch*tyas:

www.dontgo.org

lol...well bear in mind that its bright lighting :), looks like someone needs to meet more mojos :)

#422 Posted by cliftonbridge,

...they are not asking for democracy they are asking for enforced shariah regardless of who votes against it.

That's not entirely incorrect, but that is what the constitution says. It is an aberration because Islam does not accomodate political parties. It is a one-party system, with inner democracy.

But nothing wrong with that. China and Japan have one-party systems too. You just need to get Islamophobia out of your knickers ... :) It's not as bad as you think !

#420 Posted by zeemax on July 18, 2007 7:49:54 am

Oooh..a photoshopped image..now people will really stop going to india like they've stopped going to the land of the pure..

#419 Posted by cliftonbridge,

Yaar ... but ... that girl looks intelligent, and witty, and with a mischievous glint ... you seem to have those traits ..

BUT on the other hand, mojos don't have that facial structure ... so something's wrong somewhere ...(twice chin scratching)

#421

no pappi, no lies :)

bulleya but democracy will elect the PPP and we saw the religious right attacking them too, i agree in principle to what you are saying but is it possible to get the jihadi's to lay their arms down or even their supporters to lay their arms down and support democracy in pakistan?

they are not asking for democracy they are asking for enforced shariah regardless of who votes against it.

its sad that fatah has decided they can work closer with israel than hamas, and though pakistan may have initially been reluctant i think the govt at this point thinks they can probably work with the US more fruitfully than with the talibanists. This is also very sad. But the US has not attacked pakistani military and police jawans not to mention the leaders of the democracy movement (PPP and CJ).

#419 Posted by cliftonbridge,

Hmmm .... (chin scratching) ... you aren't fibbing ... are you?

I see lots of hindooos, hindooo-lovers, and hindooo-wannabes congregating here in their filth. Good:

#410

zee dont try weaseling out of your promises, you owe asma jehangir a donation and i havent seen a phootoo yet.
what am i doing on chowk? spreading truth and enlightenment (not in moderation either :))

First of all, this new format is very user unfriendly....The list of the side, of all the interactors needs to be brought back......I only read the commments of five or six individuals, and now I am forced to scan everyone's comments.......

.......The liberals and religious right of pakistan seem hell-bent on turning the country into another afghanistan......they have radicalised the whole place........hamdim2 and urstruly are going to be cheering the violence of their favorite side, from the comforts of usa, while pakistan gets crushed in between......

the administration of the lal masjid were criminals.....no doubt about it....if for no other reason, because they had occupied govt. property illegally and had set up a parallel govt and were kidnapping the citizens of pakistan.....

.......the leadership was morally criminal because they were using the presence of naive brainwashed youths to push their own political and religious agenda.......

.......however there are criminals everywhere and in every country......the way to deal with them is not to storm their locality and carry out a blanket killing.....one needs to handle the situation carefully......

.......if one carries out blanket killings then there are usually counter-killings.......this is what pakistan is seeing.......pakistan needs to do the following:

1. disassociate itself from usa's foreign policy, regardless of the consequences.....

2. dismantle the extremist religious leadership, which has established itself in some madrassahs.........but not through violence.......through a battle of ideas and ideologies, with a majority of the population behind it......a good example would have been to agree to a truce once the first ghazi brother was caught in a burqa and a majority of the students had left......

3. its time for elections now, so that any govt that gets into power, at least has some portion of population behind its decisions.....

4. sideline both the secular and the religious right (this will happen automatically, if elections are held, as pakistan's population never votes for these two groups)........

{Taliban defies Bush as debate rages over bin Laden's fate
by Said Mohammad Azam KABUL, SEPT 21 }

This was 2001, what happened next? There are no more taliban in Kabul, Mulla Omar is running around hiding behind a burqa and many of his comrades have died or switched sides. That is what happens and is going to be repeated.

Fact is, world cannot wait for some tribal idiot to change his ways, leave alone let them dictate terms.

Liberal democracy and economic globalization have their own momentum with no borders, today it is China and India leading the way to change tomorrow it maybe another country but there is only one constant and that is the universal power of economics and liberal democracy.

http://carcino.gen.nz/images/image.phpi/03ef57d4/taliban_barbie.jpg

#414 by rf786

Good post yaar!

# 399

Pee wax,

I have said this before and repeat that here again, Musharraf had to clean up this Lal Masjid mess, if he had chosen otherwise then he wud be replaced and another general wud be asked to do the honors, if there was no willing general in Pakistan to perform these responsibilities, then some outside force wud have done the job.

Do not forget who u r dealing with, the devil sitting in whitehouse is much bigger than the one you so blindly support. These Europeans/Americans have killed more than 100million people in one century, what makes u fantasize anything has changed? All your jackass waziris etc are worth only one tactical weapon, thats it end of story, is that what u want?

Violence can only breed violence, your boss (OBL) does not have the ability to understand these basic human concepts because he was born and raised in the influence of arrogance, contempt for other religions and races. Psychopaths such as the, Guls, Ghazis, Zwahiris, Qazi's et al can only propagate violence simply because of their ugly hate for everything else. But, humane race has always endured such adversities and survived, this will be no different. You think your guys can blow themselves up and scare people, then u r the stupidist person on earth, such acts will only reinforce the will of those who oppose these fanatics.

yes, there will be pain, there will be anguish and there will be many deaths before anything changes but there are two things certain, one that forces of evil such as those of Alqaeda and wahabi terroists will be defeated and second, if 100's will die because of some idiot suicide bomber, then there will be a bullet for ppl like yourself who preach hate and death for others.

#404

Dear falsafy,

{I am not an expert on political issues but i see a dramatic change in the general psyche of pakistanis.}

Urban Pakistan has been adorned with these radicalized madaris run by extremist with one agenda ie complete subjugation of civil society, thus the perception of dramatic changes. Same cannot be said for interior Sindh or Punjab where traditional values are still very much in place.

{Their islam is becoming less cultural now and they are going towards pure islam}

"Pure Islam" do u even know what that means? Who is to define what is pure and what is not? Terrorists holding the country hostage or Albayqaida holding the entire muslim world hostage to their terrorist activities? There is no such thing as pure Islam, those who believe in such concepts are basically fascists or Arabist.

Power of YUAN

In islamabad several were killed, suicide bombers are killing the lawyers in the capital, and here is the pak priority. Why...why... the dead bodies of the chinese were allowed to rot. No enquiry why the living pakistanis are being slaughtered.

This is sad for an islamic country, where a dead chnese is more important than a living muslim. When will pakistanis learn to have some self respect, they licked the boots of the americans, then the saudis, now it is the chinese..pathetic to see this

From dawn of today


Inquiry into decomposition of Chinese bodies ordered



Bureau Report


PESHAWAR, July 17: The NWFP government has ordered an inquiry into the decomposition of the bodies of three Chinese nationals killed in a terrorist attack on July 8 on Charsadda Road.

The government constituted the inquiry committee on Tuesday to determine the circumstances in which the bodies decomposed, an official said.

The committee would comprise Mushtaq Ahmad Jadoon, Elementary Education Project Director and Dr Anjum Zia, Assistant Professor at Department of Forensic Medicine and Toxicology, Khyber Medical College, Peshawar.

The inquiry team was ordered to submit its findings within a week.

Waziristan and afghanistan

When the afghan war was on, a lot of people talked about the tora bora mountains, the caves, the rough terrain etc and declared that osama could not be ousted. A few trips by B52's, a few more daisy cutters found osama leaving the mountain for the small city of quetta.

Now the talk is about the tribals and the rough terrain of waziristan. The very same B52s will do the job, this time they can re-fuel in India, not in pakistan. The waziri tribals have to be driven to an anvil, that is india, where all of them can have their shahadat.

Now the poor mushy is in a wise, caught between the military that wants to keep the US money and the jihadis who will not let mushy have it the easy way that he had for so long.

It is time that the world start talking not about the jihadi problem, but about pakistan, the problem. Partition of pakistan is the only option.

#403 Posted by cliftonbridge,

Yaar cliftonbridge .. I still don't believe its you. I mean ... what would someone who looked like that doing chatting on a dump like this?

Ab jaldi sey batao ... kon hai ???

#407 Posted by echoboom,

Iran like they will be begging fore a place of burial in the Massa-lands.

... and they thought I was joking when I said they will have to choose between Islamize or Talibanize. Many thought it was the same thing, so it appears the latter will have to be true.

#404 Posted by philosopher

... i see a dramatic change in the general psyche of pakistanis. Their islam is becoming less cultural now and they are going towards pure islam.

Yes the 'hindooana' adulterations are slowly and surely being shed. Jamia Hafsa accelerated the process.

This seems a very crucial era in the history of the country.

Yes it is. We're lucky to be witnessing it.

Musharraf & his maader-ate Ooons Poons can do Fcuk all. The Militant Fundamentalist Extremist ( aal GOOD words) ones are gaining increasingly powerful in Pakistan & other places. The defeat & demise of Ooons & Poons is certain.

Thus writes, in a gist, the chief editorialist of the largest & most powerful daily & Geo.TV owner

MashaAllah! the time to drag the OOn Oons out & send them packing will soon be there.. Iran like they will be begging fore a place of burial in the Massa-lands..and they'll be kicked real hard: shawH of "persia" Like.

Insha-Allah!
__________________________________________________________

Grease up....bend over...

July 18, 2007
Bush Aides See Failure in Fight With Al Qaeda in Pakistan
By MARK MAZZETTI and DAVID E. SANGER

WASHINGTON, July 17 — President Bush’s top counterterrorism advisers acknowledged Tuesday that the strategy for fighting Osama bin Laden’s leadership of Al Qaeda in Pakistan had failed, as the White House released a grim new intelligence assessment that has forced the administration to consider more aggressive measures inside Pakistan.

The intelligence report, the most formal assessment since the Sept. 11 attacks about the terrorist threat facing the United States, concludes that the United States is losing ground on a number of fronts in the fight against Al Qaeda, and describes the terrorist organization as having significantly strengthened over the past two years.

In identifying the main reasons for Al Qaeda’s resurgence, intelligence officials and White House aides pointed the finger squarely at a hands-off approach toward the tribal areas by Pakistan’s president, Gen. Pervez Musharraf, who last year brokered a cease-fire with tribal leaders in an attempt to drain support for Islamic extremism in the region.

“It hasn’t worked for Pakistan,� said Frances Fragos Townsend, who heads the Homeland Security Council at the White House. “It hasn’t worked for the United States.�

While Bush administration officials had reluctantly endorsed the cease-fire as part of their effort to prop up the Pakistani leader, they expressed relief on Tuesday that General Musharraf may have to abandon that approach, because the accord seems to have unraveled.

But American officials make little secret of their skepticism that General Musharraf has the capability to be effective in the mountainous territory along the Afghan border, where his troops have been bloodied before by a mix of Qaeda leaders and tribes that view the territory as their own, not part of Pakistan.

“We’ve seen in the past that he’s sent people in and they get wiped out,� said one senior official involved in the internal debate. “You can tell from the language today that we take the threat from the tribal areas incredibly seriously. It has to be dealt with. If he can deal with it, amen. But if he can’t, he’s got to build and borrow the capability.�

In weighing how to deal with the Qaeda threat in Pakistan, American officials have been meeting in recent weeks to discuss what some said was emerging as an aggressive new strategy, one that would include both public and covert elements. They said there was growing concern that pinprick attacks on Qaeda targets were not enough, but also said some new American measures might have to remain secret to avoid embarrassing General Musharraf.


The growing Qaeda threat in Pakistan has prompted repeated trips to Islamabad by senior administration officials to lean on officials there and calls by lawmakers to make American aid to Pakistan contingent on a sustained counterterrorism effort by General Musharraf’s government.

#392 Posted by zeemax on July 17, 2007 2:04:17 pm


Musharraf will crack down, and more bombings. I don't suppose anyone will be safe anymore in Pakistan.


You're taking it from all sides..First its the paki army attacking the mosque..now mushy is being pushed to bomb the tribals..which means the tribals will be even more pissed off..which means more bombs going off in the land of the pure...

US pushing Pakistan to hit al-Qaeda: official

OUR SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT
WASHINGTON - The United States will keep pressing Pakistan to take action against the Al Qaeda, which, according to an American intelligence report released Tuesday, is regrouping in Pakistan's remote border regions to carry out terrorist attacks on U.S. soil, a senior White House official said.

zeemax

I am not an expert on political issues but i see a dramatic change in the general psyche of pakistanis. Their islam is becoming less cultural now and they are going towards pure islam. All these devolopments seem helpfull to those who believe in pure islam independent of cultural and national influences. This seems a very crucial era in the history of the country.

zee your priorities are all wrong :(

Re: # 400

mumaini ko shukriya kehne ki zaroorat nahin :)

#396 Posted by cliftonbridge,

Will do ... watching news ... :)

Re: # 398

Buhat shukriya

#393 Posted by philosopher,

I don't think there'll be a split in the military ranks. They are actually the ones who are 'brainwashed', and not the Islamists. There will be civil war.

Thing is, the administration had in their arrogance, anticipated a blowback, but had decided they could contain it. Not so. They were foolish. Noone listened to Ghazi, and noone knew what could happen if they do what he had always been warning them not to do. He accepted all conditions *except* use of the word "surrender" and "arrest". The power drunk government didn't even accept that, and Ghazi said 'go to hell'.

They know better now.

abu yaar main private practice main houn main ne residency 4 saal pehle kee thee, abhi tu mera program director bhi retire ho gaiya hai, leykin agar kisse ko advice waghaira chahiay tu zaroor un ko mera email dee dijiyay qulb100@yahoo.

clifton mumani..kya aapp ayk call nikalwa saktii hein residency ki apnay dawa-khanay say?

so they want to kill mush and his supporters now they want to kill CJ and BB and all her supporters ....so the majority of all pakistani's infact. I hope people wishfully thinking that this was an antidictatorship movement have taken the blinkers off their eyes.
The ideology of hate is out and proud. Death to all pakistani's who are not talibanists.
Success is when they die, success is when we die. Infact death and destruction is the only victory.
zee check your mail :) and be prepared to donate to the asma jehangir foundation :)

If the core-commanders and the higher-brass feels that there bmw’s and real estate could be in jeopardy than brotha musharaf would have to take one for the team just like zia did. The next army chief will condemn musharaf and his liberal agenda just so status quo remains. I know its cynical but I hope my people r not stupid and if theres a change this time around it should be the change of system and not just the faces.

#332 Posted by zeemax on July 16, 2007 11:48:29 am

under the 'writers' tab, there are NIL articles listed under my name. I think I wrote at-least five ... :(

I see 6 articles under your name. None are under your name on the writer page. You have to click on the Articles tab to see them.

zee/echo

Do you guys see any chance of split in the military ranks?

I remember I had said many times that if there's an attack on Jamia Hafsa, Waziristan will erupt ... but noone believed me, in their glee on the 'ninjas' getting killed. Noone even noticed that most of those 'ninjas' were from Waziristan.

Now it is likely events will dictate themselves. Musharraf will crack down, and more bombings. I don't suppose anyone will be safe anymore in Pakistan. All for the stupid arrogance of these ass*hole westernized liberal wannabes.

#389 Posted by echoboom,

There was an ex-SSG brigadier being interviewed just now by phone. He got quite emotional. He said you can't fight the Waziri tribals. Noone has defeated them, ever. If you declare war on them, you will lose. All you can do is talk ... talk ... talk ....

I had posted Mulla Fakir of Bajaur and Abdullah Mehsood of S. Waziristan's vow to avenge on I think 11th or 12th July.

#387 Posted by hamidm2,

PPP had it coming after welcoming the Lal Masjid operation. Let's see how BB can set foot in Pakistan now.

In the meantime, I'm sure you have decided by now to retire and be buried in the gora qabristan of Flint Michigan.

You lost your country by being a liberal extremist.

But where extremism goes, you can't fight the Muslims.

hamidm2:387
Oh it is really bad news..........
.........that you were not one oF the thirteen...
but I am glad that it hurt your heart....
InshaAllah until Musharraf is gone this would be your staple.

Remember the 5000lb ponder or was it kilos.. Does it matter?

Now go back & up-end your ass for Mr.Rod White.

hamidm2:387
Oh it is really bad news..........
.........that you were not one on the thirteen...
but I am glad that it hurt your heart....
InshaAllah until Musharraf is gone this would be your staple.

Remember the 5000lb ponder or was it kilos.. Does it matter?

Now go back & up-end your ass for Mr.Rod White.

..... blood - the mullah's ice cream :

ISLAMABAD: Thirteen persons, including three women, were killed and a number of people wounded in a suicide bomb explosion near the stage prepared for the address of the Chief Justice to the Islamabad Bar.

Attack on People's Party. CJ was not the target ... PPP was. The only party other than MQM who had supported and congratulated Lal Masjid action.

Fidayeen attack in Islamabad. 16 dead. Wait around ...

Meeda Meerasi michigan walay apnay khandaani dhol ke humrah...

#380 Posted by philosopher:
as I said to mian Masadi...jurm aur gunaah meiN bohut farque hai.

we are not supposed to be the boring, colorless, drab, insipid community most people think muslims to be.

Incidentally, if you ever had a chance mullahs, maulanas, and Allamas have usually very very good-looking women.

Also if you are in a "free" company of the maulanaas you will hear the most witty,the best and most raunchy jokes..People have no clue of the boisterous life of a maulana.

Like a judge they assume a sober demeanor in officious situations.

rubbish emotional drivel.

Dear Mr. Musharraf, I am an American and applaud the way you have handled the threat of the growing militancy in your region. Don't let the naysayers get you down. Had this standoff occurred in our nation's capital, and any of our officials involved in patronizing such clubs, you betcha the public would be crying for heads to roll. Your country has for too long allowed jurisprudence to be stayed by the hand of a being who under the guise of religion has purposely blindfolded himself to avoid dealing with the changing world.

#375 Posted by cliftonbridge,

Yaar cliftonbridge ... waisey barri fit hai ... kon hai ???

#379 Posted by echoboom

Dada....i wonder what would be the ''hashar nashar' of this shaairi and ''daikhna dikhana' stuff in the islamic state?especially the one we 4 stars(abu/phil/echo/zee) have in mind....lol

#377 Posted by philosopher/#378 Posted by cliftonbridge

"Hai daikhnay kee cheez issay baar baar daikh
phir tujh ko Uun se kitna milay Ga pyaar, Daikh!

adaab aadaab

salaam echo sahab,


"Lazim hai kai hUm bhee daikhaiN gey"


lol...shaiyyid unhi ne kehna tha ke nisar chowk ki sarkoun pe jahan echo sahab muqeed hain aur sag azad :) azadi mubarak !!!

Re:#376 Posted by echoboom

(((Hum daikhaingey!
Lazim hai kai hUm bhee daikhaiN gey.............:) :)))))

ROFL...

Aur dada mein bhi....

3375:cliftonbridge
Hum daikhaingey!
Lazim hai kai hUm bhee daikhaiN gey.............:) :)

you're really a good sport. salaaam

lol... my little kitten is sounding more and more like a pet goat. Aik abu he sharif zadah reh gaya hai is chowk pe.

Vaisay agar aap ko apni ankhon par yaqueen nahin aata is main mera koi kusoor nahin . And side issue, not to compalin, but your link was also dysfunctional :)

Re:zeemax#369

(((talcum powdered-up to look like gora ... with his Dhol))))

ROFL...

lol....Yaar waisay...abu bhai theek hi keh rahain hain....agar yeh ice cream producer ki shakal hai to aiseey ice cream bohat hi naddeda aadmi hi kha sakta hai...laikin koi baat nahin kabhi kabhaar waqfiaat ki wajah sey aisa karna parta hai....

Posted by zeemax
"tum apna dikhao aur mein apni dikhaoon gee ... phir dhekh kar bhag gayee aur kuch dikhaya hi nahin"

Laholla walla hazrat...hahahahahahahahahahaha

#363 Posted by cliftonbridge,

you can not be misogynist today , remember? apna wadah yaad kurain.

Yaad hai ... leykin aqal tau uss waqt aa gai thi jub kisi ney kaha tha tum apna dikhao aur mein apni dikhaoon gee ... phir dhekh kar bhag gayee aur kuch dikhaya hi nahin ... !!! :-)))

cLifton phuppo,

yarr kyoon marwayein gii..qatill banadiya aapnayy mujh masoom koo..abhii tamam OOOns (bashukriya hazrat boom rahim ullah allayh)phudaknayy lagein gayy " daykha daykhaa..ham na kehtayy thayy kayy yeahh musalmaan qatil hottay hein"

mayra mauqif 'ice cream' kay mamlayy mein sada saa hay..America jaysii jaggah mein reh karr 'ice cream' khareedna'? yanii kayy uddaasii kii intaha hayy. I mean jisko 'ice cream' ki hajat ho or nazlay zukaam kay dar sayy aari hoo too...too yahan too ayk sayy ayk badsooratt aadmi free mein 'ice cream' khaa raha hayy. Abb aaap arjun kayy abba ki auladoon mein sayy hoon to alag baatt hayy magar..mayra zaatii qayal hay kay pakistaniyoon koo aysii koii khaas diqqat nahii honnii chahyayy..n at the expense of sounding very vain..kamazkam mujhay hargiz nahii hay.

#361 Posted by philosopher

....and you,on the other hand' always 'stand' out of your house to deal with 'ice cream' customers.

Nope. He doesn't have to do it himself. You see, he has outsourced the marketing. By his own statement, the 'agents' in Flint, Michigan drive around in Cadillacs. Business must be very good.

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philo bhai, abu bhai isnt a vulture he wants to kill for himself. I respect that.

parwaz hai dunoun ki is-hi aik fiza main
abu ka jehan aur hai, ar-jun ka jahan aur hai :)

Abu_s

bhai...war booty mein har cheez halal hai....aur yeh aap apni naakammi par paraishaan mat hon....hum abhi zinda hain...hum aap kai saath wo ice cream share karain gaiy.

Mogambo ji...aab kush ho jaiye..

Brotheraan,

Aysi SaRRI hoi, badboodaar, badsoorat orr beemariyoon say bharpoor ‘ice cream’ aapp hazraatt koo Mubarak hoo..mujhay halal khanay ki aadat hay. Waysayy bhi America mein hotayy hoayy bhi ice cream khareed kayy khayii too lanatt hay aysi zindagii parrr. Hamm mein orr badsooratt arnjunnoon mein koii too farq honna chayayy.

#363 Posted by cliftonbridge

((((Zeemax why do you get philo's left over ice cream?))))


hai hai...hai Allah...kitni fikar ho rahi hai....what's going on on this this board???? Its turning out be ''star plus' instead of 'Q t.v'....

Clifty ji...aap kahin to mein saari ice cream zee ko hi dai daita hoon?

And the reason why i get ''frozen' ice cream is because i am zee's younger brother and a Stubborn one too....so he always give me the''good' 'part' of ice cream....

Oh Ye happy & satisfied customers of Baskin-Hamidms:

These red-flags are bringing out the Bulls in you?.Now the Pimpolona ( Haaa Haaa Haaaa!)running of the bulls & the stampede will begin.

Damn this Beta of the Ooon Oooons. :) :) :)

You good little momins. Zeemax why do you get philo's left over ice cream? and why does abu s only get the bucket? only philo comes off looking alpha male in this scenario. If i were you boys i'd head off solo.

Zee come back to the fold of the nationalists!!! grumpy old pappy eating off philo's left overs is not a good role for you ....you can be as bloodthirsy as you want and twice as crazy, i promise :)

vaisay talking about promises you can not be mosogynist today , remember? apna wadah yaad kurain.

Re:#354 Posted by zeemax


((((Abu_S Bhai ... Philosopher has already laid claim to the frozen ice-cream, while I have already agreed to the left-over melted one. Now what do you want? The ice-cream making bucket?))))

LOL....abu_S bhai...despite cursing that Maloon so much you have been unable to win a 'cup' of ice cream on your own...lol

Don't worry...zee/I are your brothers in faith....if you post another ''chatkhaaray dar'' post in the 'khidmat' of Maloon we will share that ice cream....after all you know war booty must be devided equaly among all faithfulls....lol

Run chooray Run....islam aa raha hai.

Re:#360

hamid mukrooh

((((let me remind you that you patrick, who is a gentleman and a true patriot , is a christian)))))

Chooray....you compare yourself with patrick???? dharti par boajh....you are nothing like patrick...he is a stand-out guy....and you,on the other hand' always 'stand' out of you house to deal with 'ice cream' customers.

abu,

..... i flagged your post only because of your hateful and bigoted caricature of pakistani christians ....... let me remind you that you patrick, who is a gentleman and a true patriot , is a christian ...... so please be careful before mouthing off about 'chooras and nurses' ...... you disgust me .... laholaywalaquwat!

chowk staff,

.... do you see why this nesting thing is not a good idea? ..... 'discussions' on chowk rend to be shouting matches with everyone participating in the idiotlogical battles that rage here - it is not a one on one discussion ....

..... the new format is greaaat !

abu sufyan,

.... if you notice, it was not i who went off on a tangent - the madrassa boys, filo and zeemax, were way off in left field posting silly pictures and insulting 'revered figures' like asma jehangir ..... as far as i am concerned she ranks way above long dead bedouin women with dubious track records ........ and really, the way you mullahs have been harassing women on this forum is quite disgusting and chowk staff should take notice ..........

Re: # 353

abu sufyan,

.... if you notice, it was not i who went off on a tangent - the madrassa boys, filo and zeemax, were way off in left field posting silly pictures and insulting 'revered figures' like asma jehangir ..... as far as i am concerned she ranks way above long dead bedouin women with dubious track records ........ and really, the way you mullahs have been harassing women on this forum is quite disgusting and chowk staff should take notice ..........

zeemax, never realised you were a fan of cream pies? and that so stale defrosted pies.

My, how have the mighty fallen!

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#353 Posted by abu_safwaan,

Abu_S Bhai ... Philosopher has already laid claim to the frozen ice-cream, while I have already agreed to the left-over melted one. Now what do you want? The ice-cream making bucket?

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Mushy tera gaaya zamaana
Hai Rab susray ko ab bulaana

Mushy tera gaaya zamaana
Hai Rab chutye ko ab uthaana

Mushy tera gaaya zamaana
Hai Rab iska na koi thikaana

Mushy tera gaaya zamaana
Hai Rab gaaNDoo he ye puraana

Mushy tera gaaya zamaana
Hai Rab khotay ko tum charaana

Mushy tera gaaya zamaana
Hai Rab jaanta he sirf laRaana

Mushy tera gaaya zamaana
Hai Rab isko to tum saRaana

Mushy tera gaaya zamaana
Hai Rab isme DanDa chalaana

Mushy tera gaaya zamaana
Hai Rab saaley ko tum dikhaana

Mushy tera gaaya zamaana
Hai Rab roz issay Daraana

......... i often thought that if a madrassa student was exposed to an issue of playboy it would drive him nuts - zeemax and philosopher have proven me right ......... what they don't know is that they will also go blind ... soon .... what a pair of pathetic creatures !

p.s. ... and please stop making fun of feminists - the entire enterprise of islam was funded by an ugly old hag with a lot of money ....... if it hadn't been for her, poor mo wouldn' have had the time to go sit in a cave and talk to gabby - he would have been busy trying to make a living ......

All these channels are oons....that is the bottom(spanked) line..

Get rid of this shit as soon as possible....have you ever seen ''aag'' t.v and the shit they are showing is just unbelievable...

#345 Posted by philosopher,

Actually the shit she's talking about is 'Aaj' TVs Begum Nawazish Ali ...

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#346 Posted by zeemax

LOL....and that too by spanking bottom...lol

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zeemax

man..this is a highly thought pervoking article....hey guys do something to stop this shit of geo and ary...

zeemax

jeez... i have seen a great article in jung today by a woman called 'tahira iqbal'' i don't know how to paste urdu stuff...please paste it here...the topic is

''nisaai muashraa''(feminine society)

#334 Posted by philosopher,

So now you know how to do it !!! Guess we'll all have a great time now with your posts ... :)

#338 Posted by philosopher,

No I wasn't an 'oon', but I was a 'nationalist'. I am not anymore. :)

Yes Echo ... but that was written on January 8, 2000. It doesn't apply anymore. Even though many things in it have been implemented ... but half-heartedly. Besides, the world has changed.

This is a test... This is only a test to check how well this BETA RELEASE interact window works? Will it let me REVIEW this message and give the option to either go BACK or SUBMIT?

I am glad all messages flow down on the same page, but I miss the list of messages on the right hand column.

Sorry for this off topic message.

zeemax

in ''menifesto'' you sound like a kind of 'oon'??? i haven't read whole article though but it seems your were kinda onn back than??/

Zeemax, Philosopher:

Keep your mice away from cheese..they might get trapped! and the cat is not that far away either.

zeemax

yaar..i wonder how would lebanese(courtsy salim)be feeling now....lol

This is called erotic feminine beauty....

Feelsauf:

Zeemax: Millineum manifesto... Here it is.

#331 Posted by echoboom,

Echo ... where the eff is 'archives' ... ???

#331 Posted by echoboom,

You're good at this thing ... under the 'writers' tab, there are NIL articles listed under my name. I think I wrote at-least five ... :(

Dr. Phil
Written by our own Mujahid-in-arms:

ZEEMAX!

go to archive. search: "Manifesto Zeemax" and you'll be there.

#329 Posted by zeemax

where can i find this article...who has written it???

#326 Posted by echoboom,

Yeah that Manifesto article was the only positive and practical article ever written on chowk .... so they were right in deleting its interacts .... because they want everyone to become 'oons' ...

*and must be crushed with enforced chaddar*

Tauba tauba....vaisay some men are this horrible stereotype who simultaneuosly believe
1. That "their" women must have no personalities and crushing them with enforced chaddar and chaar devari
2. That all "other" women must not have any personality and must prance around nakked and submissive ...

you know you people should thank God for ugly women nahin tu you'd have to make do with blow up dolls and sending each other suggestive pics of kate moss, - oh wait :) never mind :)

Zeemax:
Check your manifesto article....Most of the inter-acts are gone!

I,ve protested to CHOWK STAFF on plugged. Please see there.

#324 Posted by zeemax

Chowk is nothing more than a 'teenage chat forum. All the ''intellectuall' oons don't like this kinda non-serious atmosphere...lol

they must be creating awareness in ''johla' like us....lol

Gosh....these third rate oons are out create awareness with dukh dard bhari bataain....lol

#323 Posted by philosopher,

Lol .... where are all the 'oons' ?????

To moss
sunna hai ke un ke bhi kamar hai

kahan hai kidhar hai kidhar ko hai?

look at this bibi kate moss....and there is asma jahangir...Gosh...lol

Man...this bibi, kate moss is really hot....look at her figure...boy...look man...and guess why these feminazists are so frustrated..

paste that large view here,the one you have sent in my message box....man she is hot.

#320 Posted by philosopher,

Chowk kanjaroon are busy today ... post whatever you want ... LoL

#318 Posted by zeemax

yap...Allah palla kare....sadqa jaaria hai hazoor....lol

i have sent you a link for the larger view of ,bibi kate moss. bring her naked body into the chaardewari of chowk...lol...zamaana kharaab hai...lol

Aakhir chowk ke kanjroon ko bhi pata chale ke hum jaante hain oon ke paas kiya kiya hai....lol

Ohh this chowk format is deleting all html tags ... phew ...

#317 Posted by philosopher,

You mean this?



Firstly there's some extra address which shouldn't be there. Next type this and you're done ... try ...

#316 Posted by zeemax

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:KK4DB25WoQ_n8M:http://www.adrants.com

what was the next crap??

#315 Posted by philosopher,

You got it ... !!

#314 Posted by zeemax

LOl...yaah...but yaar babe in #313 is just WOw....man...she is hot....i desparatly need a couple of drinks...lol.

well...women have strong desire of being beautifull...there is no doubt it....when these ugly hairy women see these beatifull babes,they get frustrated and feminism is just a catharsis of that frustration.

#313 Posted by philosopher,

Yaar, I mean women like her don't need to become feminists to get noticed ... just look how the man next to her looks so small ... it is her personna, not any frying pan in her hand ... just look:

#312 Posted by zeemax

yaar...kiyon imaan kharaab ker rahe ho....lol...she is hot....man. well the reason is so obvious... why she is not a feminazist.

she looks so feminine....vulnerable...inviting...inocent....a bit submissive....potential an obedient wife...

she looks like having intense desire of being bossed around by her Real man. she wanna live under his authourity.

she loves being dominated by her man.she wanna see her man sitting on head of the family chair not on her ass.

she has the desire of taking her man's shoes off. she just wanna be a complete feminine submissive obedient woman.

that's what make her so attractive and beautifull.....



oos ko hasil hai ikhtiaar dau aalim ki tabaahi ka

husn ke saath jawani jisay bharpoor milay.

Why is this woman not a feminazi? Of-course you know she's no bimbo either ... :)

zee my friend physical beauty is truly unimportant. It is the rejection of stereotype that makes women feminazi's ....you are wrong about us all being ugly too. Besides its laughable when men complain about womens looks, you have to admit its women stuck with the raw deal (if a persons whole worth is indeed their face).

I mean ... just look at this dawg ....



Virginia Woolf

#305 Posted by cliftonbridge,

Yeah ... ok ... but can you tell me why a SINGLE feminazi is far from being pretty? I mean ... c'mon .. it is only rejection by men which makes them fiminists ... :-)

#305 Posted by cliftonbridge,

Ok check your mail big mamy ... !!!

#306 Posted by zeemax

i am already melting....lol...but we have too many feminazist around....their hairy-ugly armpitted presence just turn me off....

I hope once they leave ''chowk'' their will be more normal babes with hairless and smooth bodies join us who will openly express their love for our muscles and hairy chests...lol...hot.

#304 Posted by philosopher,

I KNOW WHY CHOWK HAS STARTED THIS PRIVATE MESSAGING FEATURE ... THEY HAVE TAKEN A HINT FROM MIRC SO PEOPLE CAN CYBER ALL THEY WANT ... CHOWK IS LIKE AUNTY SHAMIM ... REST IN PEACE CHOWK ... NOW PEOPLE WILL OOH AND AAH .. FCUK ME ... ON THE TABLE ETC ... ON PRIVATE MESSAGING ... THANKS CHOWK STAFF !!!

zee i cant post pics from work. send me an email address , mine is qulb100@yahoo and i'll send you my pic. If i catch you publishing it i will hunt you down and tell aunty zee what a philanderer you are (embelish ofcourse) and then we will both hit you with assorted cutlery and frying pans.

Yes i am tremendously proud of the women who first freed themselves of slave mentality and stood their ground despite all the misogyny in the world. What they look like is unimportant, their beauty and wisdom and strength is inspirational and eternal.

yap

zeemax i got it...i was just testing pm box. this is only good feature this format has but at the cost of real chowk.

#301 Posted by cliftonbridgem

You mean you're flattered by these old hags running around with fry pans in their hands ??? :)

#299 Posted by philosopher,

Yeah I did ... I also answered it ...

the one on the left is zee...which is why she has this bewildered inquisitive childlike quality ...i have this exasperated by the small child biting at my ankles look.

PS- I am flattered to be compared to the great pioneers of womans liberation.

... this idiot format doesn't even allow posting URLs ... LoL

zeemax

have you got my private message?

296 Posted by cliftonbridge

zee if its for a good cause then sure. Will you stop being a misogynist if i post a pic?

Yep I'll stop being a misogynist. Promise.Now go ahead and post your pic ....you can even post it in a private message (new feature here ... lol) :)

BTW i havent seen your pic - where is it?

Zeemax Homepage.

#295 Posted by philosopher re #278 zeemax:

Yep. And the one on the right is cliftonbridge!

zee if its for a good cause then sure. Will you stop being a misogynist if i post a pic? BTW i havent seen your pic - where is it?

philosopher, i cant disgree with your right to opine or with your logic. However i do believe in the interpretive school of thought and i think many people believe hugooq ul ibad are superior to even Gods rights.

The reason is that God does not need our prayer or infact anything from us. We can not help nor harm His entity one bit. All we can affect in this life is each other. Whether you draw your inspiration straight from Islam or some interpretation of it it must all lead to improving someone elses life otherwise its pointless to mattha tukra 5 times a day.

#278 Posted by zeemax

The woman on the right has an uncanny resemblence to neembu. kiyon ji salim chuhan sahib??zee what you think?

#292 Posted by cliftonbridge,

Arrey yaar everyone has seen my ugly mug (as well as my *female* companions)on UP ... but noone has yours ... do you have the courage? :-)

Re:#289 Posted by cliftonbridge

(((However even if you call her a misguided person she has done all she can even at personal risk to help others less fortunate than herself))))

clifton sister

Agreed....but what about her so called struggle for those ''values'' which can never be accomodated in the fold of Islam at any cost. what if she starts 'rouna dhona' and doing 'dukh dard' dialogue baazi in support of Lesbalianism(courtsy..echo...you guys are unbelievable ..lol).will you have any sympathy with her?

clifton sister

The 'dhol ka poal' of this so called moral struggle and 'dukhy insianiaat' ke dialogue baazi can be exposed by simple psychoanalysis.

According to the glorious Quran even religious belief can be a sort of product of some hidden 'psychological'facters which don't have any 'legitimate' quest of religious truths in the strict sense. That is why Quran raks 'imaan' higher than 'belief' and even 'islam'. Imaan is that stage of consciousness where we start looking things with the divine light completly putting aside our own tendencies and inclinations. In that case,for a follower, God becomes the ultimate source of moralities no matter how those values look like to our 'oon' minds. This stage of 'imaan' makes us transcendent all our own psychological facters and inclinations and makes us ignore all kind of 'moral fraudism' disguised in 'dukh dard' poetry and sad and ghamzada faces. These so called 'values' are so attractive and have the potential of producing hell lot of ''oons'' who always try to win crediability by showing 'dukh dard' for insaniaat. I wish kabhi un logo kay such much ka dil mein dard ho to duniya ka boajh halqa ho.

On the issue of morality and religion....if you consider the example of hazrat ibrahim and ismaeel....you will have no problem to understand the whole issue....you see slaughtering one's own son is an immoral act but when divine commands to act otherwise the prophet ibrahim had no reluctance to follow the commandment. It shows the highest level of God-consciousness' and in the end you see the son was not slaughter...it shows that what we consider moral and immoral independent of religion can be quite misleading and in fact an illusion. so always keep divine commandement in mind.

zee are you telling me you are a grupmy old granpappy because you have to put up with the l of u. spinsters because your face looks like the ass end of a rhino?

You have my sympathy. Faces cant be changed but you could work on your inner beauty and let it shine through :)

... i.e. 'labias of ugly spinsters ...'!!! :-)

#288 Posted by cliftonbridge,

err ... yes ... all of those PLUS 'labias' ... :)

philospoher bhai,

its quite o.k for people to disagree , i respect your contention that all morality should come from religion. However even if you call her a misguided person she has done all she can even at personal risk to help others less fortunate than herself.
I dont think she deserves to be dragged through mud and oggled at. Although its clear that any woman who defies the cultural stereotype will ofcourse be regarded with hostility and ...strangely ....a weird almost lustful hatred.

I wouldnt know from personal experiance , - but you can tell me all about mirrors, ass ends of rhinos and bitter grumpy old men. I think there is an obvious connection.

#280 Posted by cliftonbridge

cliften ji

with all due respect.....whatever the 'moral' status of asma's 'struggle'' one thing is clear that ,as muslims, we can never accept such struggle which is not based on islam. Islam categorically asserts that moralities have absolutly no significance without 'imaan' i.e. God-consciouness. the jargons these liberaloon carry are,no doubt, attractive. The glourious Quran says that 'falsehood is unable to stand on itself therefore it always carries an element of truth in it.

I have absolutly no sympathy with the people who pretend to be moral without having imaan,in fact, all their struggle carries the hidden agenda of destroying the islamic values by jargons disguised in ''dukh dard' dialogue baazi.

This kind of thinking is the product of ethical interpretation of religion and because of a fallacy that religion is a moral philosophy,what i have repeated here so many times.

This ''tarka values' group pick and chose whatever they want and appologist and pseudo intellectual(dime a dozen on chowk) join the bandwagon.

If youn claim to be muslim,you just cannot admire the person who openly criticises islamic values and system.

Does her struggle validates her BS philosophy?you can not have moral philosophy without certain philosophical basis and the philosophical basis of the value system she follows is oclearly unislamic.you cannot have it both ways...choose your pick.

#280 Posted by cliftonbridge,

lOOKS LIKE YOU'RE QUITE FAMILIAR WITH THE ASS END OF RHINOS ... IS IT THE MIRROR EVERYDAY?

Oops sorry for the caps lock ... :)

Test!

Oh ... it only supports regular text. No fontsize, colour, blink or marquee ... wonderful !!!

Chowk Staff, you threw the baby out with the bath water !!!


(Testing ...)

The civilized way of doing it would have been to have a parallel run with a folder in the site named www.chowk.com/beta or something like that, and let people evaluate it before bringing it live ... but no ... chowk-staff are dictators as usual ... this is the gift they hand out on their lousy 10th anniversary of spreading hatred and ridicule ... Thanks !!!

#266 Posted by tahmed32

... but at least she stick her neck out for the oppressed women from poor families, which is more than can be said for any hadood-loving mullah.

No. She's all for married women and young girls eloping with their lovers ... but nothing for the women subjected to spousal abuse ...

Must be a slow day in jihadistan if the topic of the day is does asma jehangir shave her arm pits should she be allowed to smoke and is she f*ckable.
No offence but while second class citizens flail and moan on FP like a bunch of elephants in labour, Asma Jehangir has been a true inspiration for courage, truth and justice.
BTW her detractors here are probably as pretty as the ass end of a rhino and def. twice as dense.

Re: # 256

Kia kush lagaiya hai..... that drag is pure pleasure....Asma Jehangir is great.

#268 Posted by philosopher

Zeemax, why are all feminazists 'activists' ugly and hairy?

Because their founders looked like this ... no kidding:



Mrs. Emmeline Pankhurst and Maria Bochkarieva

Mrs. Emmeliene Pankhurst, who had arrived in Russia in June 1917, showed her appreciation of the wonderful sacrifice made by the women oof the the Battalion of Death by becoming an ardent champion of Maria Bochkarieva. The latter, in turn, appreciated Mrs. Pankhurst's sympathy, and a warm friendship sprang up between these two leaders of women.

#275 Well said. Yesterday there was a huge demonstration in Lahore as I understand, saying the same thing.

#274 iron_mask: i get it. thanks. Lets try to make up for this deficiency in format by improving the quality of our posts. :-) (just kidding).

The writing is on the wall. The people of Pakistan are sick of yet another illiterate and incompetent military dictator. We want civil society and rule of rule with insitutions. The army doesn't have the moral authority to do this. I share your pain when you say that you're sick of seeing negative comments agaisnt Pakistan in the news. Musharraf and his silly comments make Pakistan look like a Banana Republic/ Dictatorship not a nation of 160 million people. He should show a little love and respect for Pakistan and step down.He is an emabarrassment to our great nation.

#272 currently the way we see the interacts is in threaded mode. In its older incarnation, we had this option where we could
(a) see the interacts in a flat form - i.e see them as they came in with 10 per page - which is good for slow systems and connections. You then if you so desired could read the older interacts
OR
(b) Threaded version - where interacts are linked to each other. Here the howl lot are loaded in one go. So if you have 1000 interacts all of them are loaded on as one page and that is very time consuming and painful to read and go through.

You also had a list of interactors for that article on the Right Hand side - which was good for you could auto filter what you did not want to see/read and go stright to the relevant interact.

I guess, with the change Chowk staff threw everything in the sink out.....and the new version stinks

(hey I am getting poetic!)

iron mask #271 I thought faminazis were in the 1960's? I guess the term has finally caught on. Like I said - some people take a little while to catch on (sometimes decades after a fashionable phrase has come and gone).

flat? threaded? yeh ganga ram ki samajh may na aaye!!

Re: # 266

Tahmed32, you are way too old for this. You are a few generations out of date here and your assertions do not chime with the new reality.

As Philo-Pastry opined in #263 this lady is a "ugly-hairy armipitted feminazist" with a gigantic penis envy.

Now, the latest trend amongs the Mullahs, is Vagina Monologues. If you investigate their personal libraries you will find this to be true. Hence, Mullahs, taking to equal opportunities, decided to dress like women. There is a symmetry and equality to this drama.

Dont you agree

philosopher: watch your language. i am not hamidm who puts up with your namecalling.

I hate this new format - chowk staff should allow us to select flat or threaded layout. This threaded only option is very painful and time consuming for those of us on slow lines with limited bandwidth

#266 Posted by tahmed32

tahmed gadhay....#263 was mine...don't give zee the credit of calling asma jahangir a ugly-hairy armpitted feminazist.though he agrees with me.

Zeemax

why are all feminazists 'activists' ugly and hairy?

iron_mask: Alas, Masadi's thought processes have been destroyed (as he notes) to mankind by this change. :-(

#263 zeemax: yes, of course asma jehangir doesnt compare in beauty and style with mullah aziz hiding his modesty behind a burqa.

but at least she stick her neck out for the oppressed women from poor families, which is more than can be said for any hadood-loving mullah.

Re: # 256
aunty jee, who this lady?

tahmed32 "There is a moral hiding in there somewhere (Hint: change in chowk format, or change around the world. Some people get it right away, others get it after a lot of discomfort, and a few go through life never getting it). "

now what moral are you talking about? Pliss stop this non-sense! Unless you can quote the relevant authorities, hadees, quran, Masada Complex's books , sorry you cannot say there is anything moral here.

You Sir, are on your way to becoming a fully paidup *oon (* copy right echoboom-boom - fill in whatever here). Pliss get ready for a visitation from Aunty zeemini for a full examination!

#256 Posted by zeemax on July 16, 2007 6:15:24 am

This what is called...ugly-hairy armipitted feminazist...

The cigeratte in her hand clearly shows her 'penis envy'..

this is typical feminist citharsis of her ugliness.

#259 Posted by tahmed32,

I thought there were a lot of confused posts even when the review feature was available.

Yeah I know. For one, I've been reading yours for too many years ... my friend .. :)

Besides, the review feature is of no use to you anyway because you wouldn't know html if it jumped up and bit you .. :)

philosopher: Yes indeed, we need someone to write a tragic speech on this change in format. But look at the bright side - even pandit arjun is hurting.

besides ... it doesn't appear very well suited to FireFox, which is the browser of choice being much superior to IE 7.

zeemax: I thought there were a lot of confused posts even when the review feature was available.

zeemax: I thought there were a lot of confused posts even when the review feature was available.

#253 Posted by tahmed32,

No tahmed32. This new design has omitted many important features like 'review' before posting. That was essential to check any html errors. Now there'll be a lot of confused posts.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

#253 Posted by tahmed32 on July 16, 2007 6:00:27 am

Change??you are calling this pathetic crap,change???you must be kidding....man spare us this nonsense.

Man you can change the thought and mind but you can never change the Brain.

The chowk staff(though now they don't deserve to be called my beloved ''chowk'' staff)has attemted to change the brain of chowk... man this is just Bullshit.

oh man i miss zeena....where is zeena...i wish she were here with her hell long of posts condemning this act.

he he

Pakistan Truce Appears Defunct
Insurgents Strike Police, Troops; At Least 44 Die

By Griff Witte and Imtiaz Ali
Washington Post Foreign Service
Monday, July 16, 2007; Page A01

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan, July 15 -- A controversial peace deal between the Pakistani government and local tribal leaders in an area where al-Qaeda is known to be regrouping appeared to collapse Sunday, as tensions escalated and a fresh wave of bombings killed at least 44 people.

The 10-month-old deal in the restive region of North Waziristan was designed to curb cross-border attacks against U.S. and NATO troops in Afghanistan. But it has been widely criticized by security analysts and, lately, U.S. officials, who said it provided terrorist groups including the Taliban and al-Qaeda with a safe haven in which to train recruits and plot attacks.

philosopher/zeemax: You are having trouble adjusting to change. Hamidm is happy and likes the new format, and easily adjusts to change.

There is a moral hiding in there somewhere (Hint: change in chowk format, or change around the world. Some people get it right away, others get it after a lot of discomfort, and a few go through life never getting it).

Re: # 236

"strain on the eyes"

You need better glasses :)

Re: # 236

"strain on the eyes"

You need better glasses :)

Chowk Admin - Nice layout for threaded conversations! Font looks fine. Sweet!

Re: # 243

meeday mussalli

Are you consciously aware of the fact that you are complete waste of human brain cells and other sophisticated organs.If you have brain transplant i am sure brain would reject your already messed up ''khoupri'' and dirty old body.

You are kind of a trash which was used as a blueprint to build idiots and buffoons.your filthy existence forces me to believe in the punishments of stoning and lashes.

gadhay....i know...you too like the old format.....please support us man....ok what are your demands....what do you want me to do(it shouldn't have anything to do with religion).

Hamidm you peon!! This change in format is a conspiracy of the evil West to get disrupt the Great Thinker Masadi's thought processes. His ilog is lost forever. Mankind will have to wait another 1000 years before another Masadi is born. :-(

Re: # 243

meeday mussalli

Are you consciously aware of the fact that you are complete waste of human brain cells and other sophisticated organs.If you have brain transplant i am sure brain would reject your already messed up ''khoupri'' and dirty old body.

You are kind of a trash which was used as a blueprint to build idiots and buffoons.your filthy existence forces me to believe in the punishments of stoning and lashes.

gadhay....i know...you too like the old format.....please support us man....ok what are your demands....what do you want me to do(it shouldn't have anything to do with religion).

Re: # 236 Yeah dunno why they did it ... the previous format was unique and this looks like loads of other mediocre chat sites .... besides I don't know what is all that empty space on the right is doing where all the interacts used to be listed so one could only read the good interactors and not HAVE to read all the monkeys and the apes in the process ... :(

Re: # 236 Yeah dunno why they did it ... the previous format was unique and this looks like loads of other mediocre chat sites .... besides I don't know what is all that empty space on the right is doing where all the interacts used to be listed so one could only read the good interactors and not HAVE to read all the monkeys and the apes in the process ... :(

chowk staff,

... while you are at it, can you also ban philosopher until he turns 21 ...... thanks ....... also, you might want to ban arjun - he has become woefully boring; even after all these years he doesn't realize that we have already read all the stuff in dawn by the time he posts it ...

chowk staff,

....... i like your new format if no other reason that it is driving masadi and the mullahs mad ! ....... but you might want to consider listing the interacts chrononologically instead of nesting - nobody here pays any attention to who responds to who and people tend to read the latest interacts regardless of who responded to who ...... other than that the new format is great ....

#240 Posted by arjun2

{Oh so NOW you think that, huh?}

Yaar Arjun, you must have followed Romair's chequered posting history more than anyone else, and he has said everything on every topic under the sun and everything exactly contradictory to it at some point of time. So it is pointless really, to remind him of that. Water off a duck's back I guess.

Re: # 226

Asadi,

Did u write some bad response (coz 227 is missing from here).

#208 Posted by bulleya on July 15, 2007 11:57:08 pm


1. pakistan needs to get out of the habit of being a frontline state for usa


Oh so NOW you think that, huh?

Just after 9/11, you were chaffing at the bit to join the invasion of afghanistan. You wouldn't shut up about how pakiland was the talk of the town and how they were talking about pakiland on all TV shows.

p.s. what a pathetic attempt to redesign chowk. What's the idea? web 2.0?

July 16, 2007
Aid to Pakistan in Tribal Areas Raises Concerns
By JANE PERLEZ
GHALANAI, Pakistan — The United States plans to pour $750 million of aid into Pakistan’s tribal areas over the next five years as part of a “hearts and minds� campaign to win over this lawless region from Qaeda and Taliban militants.

But even before the plan has been fully carried out, documents and officials involved in the planning are warning of the dangers of distributing so much money in an area so hostile that oversight is impossible, even by Pakistan’s own government, which faces rising threats from Islamic militants.

Who will be given the aid has quickly become one of the most contentious questions between local officials and American planners concerned that millions might fall into the wrong hands. The local political agents and tribal chiefs in this hinterland on the Afghan border have for years accommodated the very groups the American and Pakistani governments seek to drive out.

A closely scripted visit to the hospital here, used for a pilot project by the United States Agency for International Development, showed the challenges on full display. The one-story hospital here was virtually empty on a recent day.

Local people had no way to get there. Three of the 110 beds were occupied. Two operating tables had not been used in months. Many doctors had left because the pay was too meager and security too precarious, said Dr. Yusuf Shah, the chief surgeon.

Sher Alam Mahsud, the local political boss who escorted this reporter on a rare visit, said he wanted all the American aid money “delivered to us.� But the precarious security does not allow the Americans to assess the aid priorities firsthand, or to provide oversight for the first installment of $150 million allocated by the Bush administration.

“Delivering $150 million in aid to the tribal areas could very quickly make a few people rich and do almost nothing to provide opportunity and justice to the region,� said Craig Cohen, the author of a recent study of United States-Pakistan relations at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington. Yet it is here in Pakistan’s Federally Administered Tribal Areas, or FATA, as the region is formally called, that Washington is intent on using the development aid as a counterinsurgency tool, according to a draft of the Agency for International Development plan given to The New York Times by an official who worked on it.

The draft warns that the “severe governance deficiencies� in the tribal areas will make it virtually impossible for the aid to be sustainable or to overcome the “area’s chronic underdevelopment and consequent volatility.�

The ambitious plan was publicly highlighted during a visit to Pakistan in June by Richard A. Boucher, the assistant secretary of state for South and Central Asian affairs, as a measure of Washington’s support for Pakistan’s president, Gen. Pervez Musharraf.

“The objective driving this decision is the hope that by bringing the FATA into the mainstream and assuring that basic human services and infrastructure are on par with the rest of Pakistan, the people of FATA would be less likely to welcome the presence of Al Qaeda and Taliban,� the draft states. The projects include health and education services, water and sanitation facilities, and agricultural development, it says, making clear that these are a means to a broader end. “The main goal of the United States government in relation to the FATA is counterterrorism,� it says.

One way to improve the chances of the aid’s efficacy would be greater emphasis on political reform in the tribal areas, according to the draft. The Pakistani government has created a panel to study reform of the political structure in the areas, the draft noted, adding that “Usaid should explore opportunities for contributing its substantial experience in local government capacity building to any reform efforts the government of Pakistan decide to undertake.�

Even if the tribal areas were not under the sway of the Taliban, which they increasingly are, the development challenge here would be steep enough, the document and interviews make clear.

The area, home to 3.2 million people, remains a desolate landscape where women are strictly veiled. Female literacy — at 3 percent — is among the lowest in the world. Schools are often used to run businesses. There is no banking system. Smuggling of opium and other contraband is routine.

The hostility to almost anything that smacks of foreign influence is such that money from the modest development agency program, administered by the charity Save the Children at the hospital here, was being delivered anonymously, undercutting any potential public relations benefit for the United States.

“We can’t do branding,� said Fayyaz Ali Khan, the program manager for Save the Children, in an interview in the city of Peshawar. “Usually we say the aid comes from the American people, but here we can’t.�

Suspicions about modern medicine are rife. A Pakistani doctor was blown up in his car in June after trying to counter the anti-vaccine propaganda of an imam in Bajaur, one of the tribal agencies, Pakistani officials said.

The Pakistani government has virtually no authority here. After years of fighting to assert its authority, at the cost of about 600 soldiers, it negotiated peace accords with tribal authorities that have all but confined Pakistani troops to their barracks.

Tribal elders, local imams and governors known as political agents — their title goes back to the British colonial days — are the on-the-ground arbiters of all decisions in many districts. The political agents are widely considered corrupt.

A senior American official in Islamabad, Pakistan’s capital, who would not speak for attribution, defended the plan’s goals as necessary and achievable. The official said that “Pakistani firms, consulting organizations and nongovernmental organizations� would be the main deliverers of the assistance.

The official said, referring to the international aid agency, that these would in turn be “managed under Usaid direct contracts and grants to American and international organizations.�

Mr. Cohen, of the Center for Strategic and International Studies, was skeptical. Almost every potential recipient of the money was suspect in the eyes of the people it was supposed to help, he said. “The notion that there’s going to be $150 million a year to Pakistani nongovernmental organizations who are going to be out in the open seems naïve to me,� he said.

“The insecurity of the area will require a heavy reliance on local partners� like Pakistani nongovernmental organizations to administer projects, he added. “But the nongovernmental organizations don’t trust the military, the military doesn’t trust the tribal chiefs, and the tribal chiefs won’t trust us unless they’re getting a cut of the money.�

Such Pakistani groups were often targets of the Islamic militants in the tribal areas. The militants are increasingly destroying CD shops and attacking small efforts to gain advantages for women.

Mr. Mahsud, the political agent for the tribal agency, or district, of Mohmand, where the hospital is, had his own ideas. Any aid money from Western donors should be “pooled here,� he said, during an interview at the FATA secretariat headquarters in Peshawar, meaning it should be distributed through local officials.

His power was evident when he drove in his impressive new four-wheel-drive vehicle through the heavy metal black gates that mark the boundary to his tribal agency. Armed men in heavy gray uniforms, wearing black felt berets in the summer heat, snapped to attention.

The hospital itself was barren, and silent. Dr. Shah, the chief surgeon, and other doctors who had come to the hospital for the visit of an outsider, said water was a luxury trucked in by tanker, arriving at best every other day.

One doctor, Aaquila Khan, brimmed with passion about helping the poor and feeble women who came to visit the woefully underequipped hospital, but she lives in Peshawar, more than an hour’s drive away, and so comes in just two or three days a week, mornings only, to treat those female patients.

“They are very much anemic,� she said of eight women she treated during a recent visit. “They are not educated, they are not aware of family planning, they have no money.� Only the women living within walking distance could come, she said.

The aid program run by Save the Children, a small $11 million starter project that hints at the bigger things planned by the Americans, formally began last December with a signing of a memorandum of understanding with the tribal authorities.

The idea is for Pakistani doctors to train health care workers who will go into the field and train traditional health assistants on more modern methods.

But the first training sessions have only just begun, said Mr. Khan, the program manager for Save the Children. The only sign of the program was a “resource room� with a large blond wood table and a dozen or so chairs still in their plastic wrapping.

The training sessions take place in Peshawar, over the tribal boundary, to ensure the safety of the doctors.



Copyright 2007 The New York Times Company

To all fellow chowkies

yaar...what's going on here? man...this is not the chowk i am in love with...it looks just another web site....oh God....what crap is this....lets protest guys...come on friends....lets put our differences aside...i request all the members from both sides of the border to join hands in this noble cause.

This is not the chowk i love....dear chowk staff.

please staff....just return me my beloved chowk....

i have never been so emotional.....i am a man and don't know how to cry but this time i am really gonna cry......;;;;;;;;;;;;;
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

Re: # 236zeemax

yaar...what's going on here? man...this is not the chowk i am in love with...it looks just another web site....oh God....what crap is this....lets protest guys...come on friends....lets put our differences aside...i request all the members from both sides of the border to join hands in this noble cause.

This is not the chowk i love....dear chowk staff.

please staff....just return me my beloved chowk....

i have never been so emotional.....i am a man and don't know how to cry but this time i am really gonna cry......;;;;;;;;;;;;;
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

Why're all the posts nested instead of chronological? The reader should have the choice as before ... plus the colour scheme is a strain on the eyes ...

Harishbhai

Re#225

(Restore the old format please! It is the best! )

May not agree with you on MAJ (pbuh) vs MKG but do agree with you on this. This format is extremely tough on the eyes.

Regards

Harishbhai

Re#225

(Restore the old format please! It is the best! )

May not agree with you on MAJ (pbuh) vs MKG but do agree with you on this. This format is extremely tough on the eyes.

Regards

Harishbhai

Re#225

(Restore the old format please! It is the best! )

May not agree with you on MAJ (pbuh) vs MKG but do agree with you on this. This format is extremely tough on the eyes.

Regards

Re: # 231
hamid Mad

Oh gadhay.... was that format islamic that you are so strongly opposing???

come on man.....chowk staff always listen to anti-islam buffoons....please request them to change the format...please....meeday yaar...i am requesting you as a friend.

chowk staff, bravo !

...... great new format ... however, you might want to limit the number of interacts per page ....... hopefully, it will drive away masadi ......... now, if you can make sure that people can't cut and paste urdu text and nude pictures of gandhi, we should be there ..........

hey chowk staff..

what the hell is this....where is the chowk i am in love with???? Switch back to the original format. oh man....for God sake....its so disturbing...i am so disturbed to see it.

hey guys...come on ....just request the staff to return us our beloved chowk....please

Mushys options

The US is putting pressure on mushy get osama. If he sends the military they will be slaughtered and there will be a coup. so he will not send the military, he will rather allow the US to bomb waziristan.

His best option is to send the jihadis to kashmir, where they will be slaughtered by the indians.

Or he might, if he is smart let in Benzir and let her handle the situation.

It is all due to the failure of Collin Powel, at alst the US will have to follow the hammer and anvil approach. Bomb waziristan, the jihadis will move to islamabad. Bomb islamabad, they will move to POK and there they will meet the anvil of the Indian troops.

There is no other option, neither for mushy, nor for the US.

New, improved format!! But at what cost? In making this change, as Masadi notes, Chowk editors have effectively erased his thought process.

Not since the destruction of the Alexandria library 2000 years ago has human intellectual endeavors received such a setback as this disruption of Masadi's thought processes!! :-)

Re: # 205

Zahra,

I am actually making a statement abt Musharraf's writ in Pakistan in the light of the new developments in NWFP where the Pak-Talibans are having a go at the the state of Pakistan.

As for Karzai, he's doing his best. U can kindly send ur suggestions, if any, to his govt by email (no kidding) coz I did them a couple of times b4.

#222 Posted by masadi on July 16, 2007 1:48:34 am

Asadi, Pl shed ur persecution complex...yeah they are biased but bias is not persecution.

I too dont like this format.

It's always dreaming abt the first wife who use to be better;-)

Restore the old format please! It is the best!

#220 Posted by PM,

I can't figure out how so many posts are dated 1999 here .... ???????? Scroll down and see ... this is really a mess ... soory chowk staff ... I know it is still beta but it really sux .. !!

This New Chowk is confused and all over the place.

Chowk editors will not let me post any new ilogs, effectively controlled through "error messages"...This is BS

bulleya writes ".....the mullah leadership, this time, fought bravely and eventually recovered from the burqa embarrasment"

Did the mullah leadership "fight bravely" or is it that those they were fighting (the US occupation force) were grossly incompetent as a fighting force and the mullah were "grossly stupid" in once again becomming fodder for the US elite- the answer is the latter

Could someone PLEASE tell me how to limit the number of posts displayed per page? This is insane! I click on the 'interact' link and get the each and every post, which takes an hour on my slow connection.

Chowkstaff, khairyat!?

Re: # 181

Salim Mian,

Moderation is one of the main pillars as taught by the Quran, I totally agree with your thesis and understand the outrage. But my dear soul, how do we deal with this scourge that is willing to kill and be killed? Kharajis, Nazis, Al Qaeda all these groups are fanatical ideologues with very little humanness, its their way or the highway and that is applied for the entire family/community.

Maybe sometimes violence does create that momentum which acts as the catalyst for change, maybe Iam wrong but what if this was the correct path and the Govt waivered because of political pressure and this country slides into a taliban dominated regime? WHat then dear Salim?

States like any corporation have to adapt to the changed competitve environemnt, those that fail to adapt become obsolete, inefficient and eventually apply for bankruptcy or if lucky taken over by another bigger fish that leads to further restructuring. Its about time we restructured b4 someone else does that for us.

IS PAKISTAN BURNING

No, not yet. The ilks of YLH and tahmed, who always made the distinction between jihadis, the sectarian jihadis, kashmir jihadis and the afghan ones are the root cause of the pak problem.

I have posted here a long time ago that jihadis are general purpose killers, they kill any one whom the mullah identifies as the kafir.

Eviction of a few mullahs in a mosque in isklamabad and nearly a hundred pak soldiers are killed in waziristan.

Reason is simple, there is no distinction between jihadis, they seek death, so that they can go to heaven, and for that purpose alone they will become suicide bombers at the drop of a word from the mullah.

Chowk editors have CENSORED all my ilogs except the current 8, thereby effectively erasing the history of my thought process on CHOWK. This is a dispicable attempt at censorship. CHOWK EDITORS restore all my ilogs immediately. When you click on next page, it brings up other people's ilogs, this is BS

Attacks kill 70 in Pakistan

Militants target police, military following Red Mosque siege in capital

The Associated Press
Updated: 2:58 p.m. ET July 15, 2007

PESHAWAR, Pakistan - Militants in northwest Pakistan disavowed a peace pact with the government and launched two days of suicide attacks and bombings that killed at least 70 people, dramatically escalating the violence in the al-Qaida infiltrated region.

The attacks Sunday and Saturday followed strident calls by extremists to avenge the government’s bloody storming of Islamabad’s Red Mosque and a declaration of jihad, or holy war, by at least one pro-Taliban cleric.

Termination of the peace treaty, the hopeful handiwork of President Gen. Pervez Musharraf, puts even greater pressure on the military leader as he struggles with both Islamic extremists and a gathering pro-democracy movement.

There is concern in Pakistan that the gathering sense of crisis could prompt Musharraf to cancel elections later this year and declare a state of emergency — despite his repeated denials.

However, Musharraf can also use the turbulence to convince Washington, his key backer, that he remains a vital bulwark against extremists in the Islamic world’s only declared nuclear state.

U.S. expresses concern
The U.S. national security adviser, Stephen Hadley, expressed concern Sunday about the threat from militants in Pakistan, but supported Musharraf’s recent responses.

“He has a safe haven problem in an area of his country where Pakistan’s central government has really not been present for decades or even generations. It is a problem for him,� Hadley told CNN’s “Late Edition.�


But in a separate interview on Fox News Sunday, Hadley acknowledged that the United States was dissatisfied with Musharraf’s policies.

“The action has at this point not been adequate, not effective,� Hadley said. “He’s doing more. We are urging him to do more, and we’re providing our full support to what he’s contemplating.�

Abdullah Farhad, a militant spokesman, said the 10-month-old cease-fire was being terminated in North Waziristan, a remote area on the Afghan border where the U.S. worries that al-Qaida has regrouped.

He said Taliban leaders made the decision after the government failed to abide by their demand to withdraw troops from checkpoints by Sunday afternoon. He also accused authorities of launching attacks and failing to compensate those harmed.

“The peace agreement has ended,� Farhad told reporters in Peshawar, the capital of North West Frontier Province.

The government deployed thousands of troops to restive areas of the province in recent days in hopes of stemming a backlash to the storming of the radical Red Mosque.

But they failed to protect themselves Sunday against suicide attacks and a roadside bomb which together killed 44 people and wounded more than 100.


Attack on military convoy
Two suicide bombers and a roadside bomb struck a military convoy in Swat, a mountainous area northeast of Peshawar, killing 18 people and wounding 47, a government official said, citing an official report being sent to Islamabad.

The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak with the media, said two explosive-laden vans driven rammed the convoy near the town of Matta. He said seven civilians also died.

Bodies and the wounded were pulled from the shattered military vehicles. Helmets, an engine, and pieces of twisted metal were strewn over a wide area, some of it stained with blood.

Television footage showed about half a dozen roadside houses also destroyed by the blasts. People dug four corpses out of the rubble, among them a young girl.

In the day’s second attack, a suicide bomber targeted scores of people taking medical and written exams for recruitment to the police force in the city of Dera Ismail Khan. The blast killed 26 people and wounded 35, said police officer Habibur Rahman.

More than 150 people were on the grounds of the police headquarters when the bomber struck. Police said the bomber’s head and suicide vest were found.

On Saturday, at least 26 soldiers were killed and 54 wounded in a suicide car bombing north of Miran Shah, North Waziristan’s main town, the army said.

Interior Minister Aftab Sherpao said the government was investigating whether the attacks were related to the Red Mosque operation.

Tensions high
Speaking on Pakistan’s Geo television, he said militants had violated the Waziristan deal by attacking government targets. Authorities would hold tribal leaders responsible, he said.

Tensions are high in Pakistan after the mosque raid, which ended an eight-day siege with a hard-line cleric and his militant supporters. More than 100 died during the standoff.

The region along Pakistan’s border with Afghanistan has seen increased activity by local militants, the Taliban, and — according to a recent U.S. assessment — al-Qaida.

One of the army’s apparent targets is Maulana Fazlullah, a radical cleric who has pressed for Taliban-style rule in Pakistan — much like the leaders of the Red Mosque. Fazlullah was accused of telling supporters to prepare for jihad, or holy war, to avenge the mosque assault.

Intelligence officials in Swat say Fazlullah announced on an FM radio station Saturday night that he was fleeing to avoid arrest.

A document announcing the end of the peace pact in North Waziristan was passed around in the bazaar in Miran Shah. The signatories referred to themselves as the Taliban, a term commonly used by militants in northwest Pakistan, though their links with the Taliban fighting in neighboring Afghanistan are murky.

Under the Sept. 5, 2006, truce, the Pakistan army pulled back to barracks tens of thousands of troops that had been involved in bloody operations against suspected Taliban and al-Qaida hideouts, and militants agreed to halt attacks in Pakistan and over the border against foreign troops in Afghanistan. Tribal elders were supposed to police the deal.

Musharraf had clung to the agreement and similar pacts in neighboring areas, arguing that, by empowering tribal leaders to police their own fiefdoms in return for development aid, they offered the only chance of bringing long-term stability.

However, critics have argued that Musharraf’s decision to cut a deal effectively handed the Taliban and al-Qaida a safe haven from which to plot attacks in Pakistan, Afghanistan and in the West.


© 2007 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19757176/