Khadija Hassan July 13, 2007
#64 Posted by jayp on July 14, 2007 2:44:48 am
AN OPEN LETTER TO KHADIJA
In pakistan under the hoodood law, murder is not a crime against the state. The close relatives of the murdered has to make an FIR and has to be registered by the police. You may recall the murder of Samia Sarwar and no one was prosecuted.
In the case of lal masjid the laws are the same. There could be thousand murdered, but if no one files an FIR, no crime has been committed.
Your appalling lack of knowledge about the laws of pakistan need some explanation.
I look forward to your response
jayp
In pakistan under the hoodood law, murder is not a crime against the state. The close relatives of the murdered has to make an FIR and has to be registered by the police. You may recall the murder of Samia Sarwar and no one was prosecuted.
In the case of lal masjid the laws are the same. There could be thousand murdered, but if no one files an FIR, no crime has been committed.
Your appalling lack of knowledge about the laws of pakistan need some explanation.
I look forward to your response
jayp
#65 Posted by malik99 on July 14, 2007 3:20:24 am
HP writes ``The Gangster mentality makes them indulge in what Sultan Rahi made famous: the BarRak. That barRak makes them do things way beyond their capabilities.``
HP sahib, your bleeding heart for the rule of law aside, would u or would you not agree that alcohol and prostitution is against the current laws in pakistan - mullahs or no mullahs?
Since alcohol and prostitution are against the current laws, arent those who engage in alcohol and prostitution just as guilty of taking law in their own hands as those who tried to stop them?
Private citizens who shame government into enacting its own laws should be commended, not bombed. In US, when the government failed to protect borders, citizens took over that responsibility a la Minute Men in Arizona. And they enjoy much admiration. NO one will bomb them for sure.
HP sahib, your bleeding heart for the rule of law aside, would u or would you not agree that alcohol and prostitution is against the current laws in pakistan - mullahs or no mullahs?
Since alcohol and prostitution are against the current laws, arent those who engage in alcohol and prostitution just as guilty of taking law in their own hands as those who tried to stop them?
Private citizens who shame government into enacting its own laws should be commended, not bombed. In US, when the government failed to protect borders, citizens took over that responsibility a la Minute Men in Arizona. And they enjoy much admiration. NO one will bomb them for sure.
#66 Posted by rf786 on July 14, 2007 3:20:48 am
Re: # 50
Dear Salim Mian,
Iam sorry, but I cud not detect the sarcasm. To me, it sounded more like a charge sheet against the Govt and completly ignores the criminal, hostile acts of the ghajee terrorists.
Its easy to point fingers at the Govt, but what of the terrorists that were willing to kill and be killed? This is just the tip of the ice-berg, ever been to Binoria Town Karachi? That is the mother lode for all terrorists, yet they are untouchable and held with great respect. My dear Salim, debate being framed to justify or rationalize these terrorists is appeasement and has only made the terrorists stronger, ask ZA Bhutto Marhoom.
Dear Salim Mian,
Iam sorry, but I cud not detect the sarcasm. To me, it sounded more like a charge sheet against the Govt and completly ignores the criminal, hostile acts of the ghajee terrorists.
Its easy to point fingers at the Govt, but what of the terrorists that were willing to kill and be killed? This is just the tip of the ice-berg, ever been to Binoria Town Karachi? That is the mother lode for all terrorists, yet they are untouchable and held with great respect. My dear Salim, debate being framed to justify or rationalize these terrorists is appeasement and has only made the terrorists stronger, ask ZA Bhutto Marhoom.
#67 Posted by nazarhayatkhan on July 14, 2007 3:36:48 am
Bulleya # 28
``.......the lal masjid type problems are social and economic in nature........they are not going to be solved through guns......``
I keep hearing this logic of poverty behind religious militancy. How many high profile religious terrorists are poor. Not only that they were not poor, most of them were actually well to do. (eg. USA, UK) Why the poor of Sind or Baluchistan do not become Religious terrorists? Or for that matter, poor of Argentina, Brazil, India or African countries.
Was Ghazi poor?
Unfortunately, in our case some state factors have also come into play - use of religion in our creation, religion being a part of our constitution, religion in our external / internal policies.....and to top it all, most of the policies handled by the dumb faugies or intelligence agencies.
As for the kids or immature youngsters, they can be easily duped, brainwashed and used. This is what the Mullas do - incite youngsters & gain POWER.
When I was a child in Montgomery (now Sahiwal - Why?), on Fridays, I specially went to a mosque where a fiery Mulla delivered forcefull speeches. He was called `Kuhary Shah` or `Axe Shah` - because his Khutbas got you volatile.
Once, a few missionary ladies were distributing some literature - I had been so brainwashed by this crazy nut that I tore the books that they were distributing in front of them - and then as a scared child, just ran away.
This is the state of mind & exploitation of the youngesters of the Lal Masjid.
The Syllabus of the Madressas may look harmless but it is not the Syllabus that matters. It is the fact of keeping those hapless souls prisoner in the compounds & continuously brainwashing them that turns them into dangerous ROBOTs.
regards
NHK
``.......the lal masjid type problems are social and economic in nature........they are not going to be solved through guns......``
I keep hearing this logic of poverty behind religious militancy. How many high profile religious terrorists are poor. Not only that they were not poor, most of them were actually well to do. (eg. USA, UK) Why the poor of Sind or Baluchistan do not become Religious terrorists? Or for that matter, poor of Argentina, Brazil, India or African countries.
Was Ghazi poor?
Unfortunately, in our case some state factors have also come into play - use of religion in our creation, religion being a part of our constitution, religion in our external / internal policies.....and to top it all, most of the policies handled by the dumb faugies or intelligence agencies.
As for the kids or immature youngsters, they can be easily duped, brainwashed and used. This is what the Mullas do - incite youngsters & gain POWER.
When I was a child in Montgomery (now Sahiwal - Why?), on Fridays, I specially went to a mosque where a fiery Mulla delivered forcefull speeches. He was called `Kuhary Shah` or `Axe Shah` - because his Khutbas got you volatile.
Once, a few missionary ladies were distributing some literature - I had been so brainwashed by this crazy nut that I tore the books that they were distributing in front of them - and then as a scared child, just ran away.
This is the state of mind & exploitation of the youngesters of the Lal Masjid.
The Syllabus of the Madressas may look harmless but it is not the Syllabus that matters. It is the fact of keeping those hapless souls prisoner in the compounds & continuously brainwashing them that turns them into dangerous ROBOTs.
regards
NHK
#68 Posted by khatam-shud on July 14, 2007 3:48:20 am
Re: # 57
count again. 100 in the first 3 rows alone.
apparently a lot of you have missed the point i made about the whore houses. let me repeat myself:
``Mr. President, are you not aware how many whore houses operate in the capital? Are you not aware that in every sector of Islamabad alcohol is readily available? Has none of your 40 advisors as yet brought this to your attention? Has no one realized that what these extremist fanatics have been raging about actually contains a grain of truth amidst all their madness and lack of reason? It is a grain of truth that may sadly now be manipulated to subvert the more critical truth of their outraging militancy.``
and once again, just to be sure:
``It is a grain of truth that may sadly now be manipulated to subvert the more critical truth of their outraging militancy.``
I was appalled when a lot of educated people, unaware of the history of this crisis, unaware of the threats the burqa brigades made against citizens of Islamabad, actually said ``so what? all they wanted was to wipe out alcohol and prostitution!``. This is a reaction to that.
I wish to clarify one other thing IN GENERAL:
YES, I UNDERSTAND THE OPERATION BECAME ESSENTIAL. THAT IS NOT THE POINT. The point is that when you make a BAD DECISION IN THE PAST AND PAY FOR IT IN THE FUTURE, DO NOT COWER BEHIND STATEMENTS OF HELPLESSNESS.
count again. 100 in the first 3 rows alone.
apparently a lot of you have missed the point i made about the whore houses. let me repeat myself:
``Mr. President, are you not aware how many whore houses operate in the capital? Are you not aware that in every sector of Islamabad alcohol is readily available? Has none of your 40 advisors as yet brought this to your attention? Has no one realized that what these extremist fanatics have been raging about actually contains a grain of truth amidst all their madness and lack of reason? It is a grain of truth that may sadly now be manipulated to subvert the more critical truth of their outraging militancy.``
and once again, just to be sure:
``It is a grain of truth that may sadly now be manipulated to subvert the more critical truth of their outraging militancy.``
I was appalled when a lot of educated people, unaware of the history of this crisis, unaware of the threats the burqa brigades made against citizens of Islamabad, actually said ``so what? all they wanted was to wipe out alcohol and prostitution!``. This is a reaction to that.
I wish to clarify one other thing IN GENERAL:
YES, I UNDERSTAND THE OPERATION BECAME ESSENTIAL. THAT IS NOT THE POINT. The point is that when you make a BAD DECISION IN THE PAST AND PAY FOR IT IN THE FUTURE, DO NOT COWER BEHIND STATEMENTS OF HELPLESSNESS.
#69 Posted by khatam-shud on July 14, 2007 4:07:28 am
Re: # 64
``if no one files an FIR, no crime has been committed.``
right. i dont have a birth certificate. i must not exist.
``Your appalling lack of knowledge about the laws of pakistan need some explanation.``
I apologize sincerely for my appalling lack of knowledge
I believe the SC demanded an explanation from the government`s lawyers in court about 3 days ago asking under what law the operation was taking place. Apparently there isn`t any actual jurisdiction for the army to be used in these circumstances.
Its time for me to question your logic now: If murder isnt a crime against the state, then what is it?
``if no one files an FIR, no crime has been committed.``
right. i dont have a birth certificate. i must not exist.
``Your appalling lack of knowledge about the laws of pakistan need some explanation.``
I apologize sincerely for my appalling lack of knowledge
I believe the SC demanded an explanation from the government`s lawyers in court about 3 days ago asking under what law the operation was taking place. Apparently there isn`t any actual jurisdiction for the army to be used in these circumstances.
Its time for me to question your logic now: If murder isnt a crime against the state, then what is it?
#70 Posted by khatam-shud on July 14, 2007 4:18:04 am
A general reply to you all:
Thank you for sharing your views and reactions with me. I only have a couple of things to add:
1) talking about one issue, here the lal masjid, does not imply that one is unaware of other issues. Nowhere have i suggested that poverty and illiteracy are not issues that need our attention. Nowhere have i suggested that blood shed in sectarian conflict is acceptable. For now, my outrage is directed at a government that has killed its own people. ITS OWN PEOPLE, implying not only those of us who were pure victims of this tragedy, but ``its own people`` implying that this was an issue created by the government itself FOR VARIOUS REASONS, all of which MUST be brought into question.
2) Yes this is OUR OWN DOING. As apathetic citizens who have willingly relinquished control over our political lives, who have accepted bad governance upon bad governance, under democracy, under dictatorship, we MUST ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY FOR OUR ACTIONS. WE MUST FEEL SHAME AS MUCH AS WE FEEL ANGER.
Sincerely,
Khadija
Thank you for sharing your views and reactions with me. I only have a couple of things to add:
1) talking about one issue, here the lal masjid, does not imply that one is unaware of other issues. Nowhere have i suggested that poverty and illiteracy are not issues that need our attention. Nowhere have i suggested that blood shed in sectarian conflict is acceptable. For now, my outrage is directed at a government that has killed its own people. ITS OWN PEOPLE, implying not only those of us who were pure victims of this tragedy, but ``its own people`` implying that this was an issue created by the government itself FOR VARIOUS REASONS, all of which MUST be brought into question.
2) Yes this is OUR OWN DOING. As apathetic citizens who have willingly relinquished control over our political lives, who have accepted bad governance upon bad governance, under democracy, under dictatorship, we MUST ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY FOR OUR ACTIONS. WE MUST FEEL SHAME AS MUCH AS WE FEEL ANGER.
Sincerely,
Khadija
#71 Posted by khatam-shud on July 14, 2007 4:19:54 am
Re: # 66
dear rf786,
``If mosques and madrassah’s in the CAPITAL that are situated in the shadow of our intelligence force cannot be controlled, how do you hope to control similar monsters across the country?``
hope that clarifies it.
Khadija
dear rf786,
``If mosques and madrassah’s in the CAPITAL that are situated in the shadow of our intelligence force cannot be controlled, how do you hope to control similar monsters across the country?``
hope that clarifies it.
Khadija
#72 Posted by khatam-shud on July 14, 2007 4:27:54 am
Re: # 50
Mr Salim Chauhan,
Thank you for that kind defence.
Unfortunately i am not awaiting immigration documents from anywhere. Perhaps applications are in order :-).
Sincerely,
Khadija
Mr Salim Chauhan,
Thank you for that kind defence.
Unfortunately i am not awaiting immigration documents from anywhere. Perhaps applications are in order :-).
Sincerely,
Khadija
#73 Posted by khatam-shud on July 14, 2007 4:34:15 am
Re: # 60
``Khadija, Pathetic is the only word to describe your above quote. Will you say that the money spent on training the jihadis and sending them to kashmir also could be spent on providing drinking water.``
YES
``It is sad to see all of you so worried about lal masjid when about 90 dead bodies are collected every day by Edhi foundation in karachi, those killed in the shia sunny battles. ``
Why do you assume that if one problem is the point of focus at a particular point in time, that another does not matter?
``To talk about human rights of the jihadis, is to talk about the animal rights of rats spreading plague.``
Im not talking about the human rights of the ``jihadis.`` (what these ``jihadis`` did btw was not even close to the spirit of real jihad). Im talking about a government killing its own people - of running an operation fully mindful of its own culpability, and then justifying it as a necessary evil. Of killing innocent people in a political crossfire. yes, a POLITICAL crossfire. Not a religious one.
``Your article is simply pathetic.``
Thank you for your frank opinion. You are entitled to it.
Sincerely,
Khadija
``Khadija, Pathetic is the only word to describe your above quote. Will you say that the money spent on training the jihadis and sending them to kashmir also could be spent on providing drinking water.``
YES
``It is sad to see all of you so worried about lal masjid when about 90 dead bodies are collected every day by Edhi foundation in karachi, those killed in the shia sunny battles. ``
Why do you assume that if one problem is the point of focus at a particular point in time, that another does not matter?
``To talk about human rights of the jihadis, is to talk about the animal rights of rats spreading plague.``
Im not talking about the human rights of the ``jihadis.`` (what these ``jihadis`` did btw was not even close to the spirit of real jihad). Im talking about a government killing its own people - of running an operation fully mindful of its own culpability, and then justifying it as a necessary evil. Of killing innocent people in a political crossfire. yes, a POLITICAL crossfire. Not a religious one.
``Your article is simply pathetic.``
Thank you for your frank opinion. You are entitled to it.
Sincerely,
Khadija
#74 Posted by khatam-shud on July 14, 2007 4:40:21 am
Re: # 61
``Living in pakistan, with all of the good of pakistan in mind, did you write an open letter when Mukhtan Mai was raped and no one was arrested for it.``
As a matter of fact I wrote an op-ed piece that was published in a weekly.
``May be it the cries of the dying jihadis, allahu akbar that woke you up from teh rip van winklian sleep.``
Now that you are awake, look around, look at the 2000 odd madrasas teaching hatred.
Can you write an open letter to Mullah Asghar, the man released after the hijacking of the indian aircraft to stop his hate campaign.``
Why are you so full of hate?
``You should have been honest to yourself and asked for a high paying job from mushy, that you are educated in the US, or did you come back in a chartered flight payed for by the pak govt.``
I was educated in Pakistan. A few years abroad cannot change the essence of my education.
``Living in pakistan, with all of the good of pakistan in mind, did you write an open letter when Mukhtan Mai was raped and no one was arrested for it.``
As a matter of fact I wrote an op-ed piece that was published in a weekly.
``May be it the cries of the dying jihadis, allahu akbar that woke you up from teh rip van winklian sleep.``
Now that you are awake, look around, look at the 2000 odd madrasas teaching hatred.
Can you write an open letter to Mullah Asghar, the man released after the hijacking of the indian aircraft to stop his hate campaign.``
Why are you so full of hate?
``You should have been honest to yourself and asked for a high paying job from mushy, that you are educated in the US, or did you come back in a chartered flight payed for by the pak govt.``
I was educated in Pakistan. A few years abroad cannot change the essence of my education.
#75 Posted by khatam-shud on July 14, 2007 4:41:59 am
Re: # 56
I request you do not take my words out of context.
``Mr. President, are you not aware how many whore houses operate in the capital? Are you not aware that in every sector of Islamabad alcohol is readily available? Has none of your 40 advisors as yet brought this to your attention? Has no one realized that what these extremist fanatics have been raging about actually contains a grain of truth amidst all their madness and lack of reason? It is a grain of truth that may sadly now be manipulated to subvert the more critical truth of their outraging militancy.``
the LAST sentence is the operative phrase.
I request you do not take my words out of context.
``Mr. President, are you not aware how many whore houses operate in the capital? Are you not aware that in every sector of Islamabad alcohol is readily available? Has none of your 40 advisors as yet brought this to your attention? Has no one realized that what these extremist fanatics have been raging about actually contains a grain of truth amidst all their madness and lack of reason? It is a grain of truth that may sadly now be manipulated to subvert the more critical truth of their outraging militancy.``
the LAST sentence is the operative phrase.
#76 Posted by khatam-shud on July 14, 2007 4:43:41 am
Re: # 52
Mr KamranISS
Its not about muslims killing muslims. its not about religion. its about GOVERNANCE!
Mr KamranISS
Its not about muslims killing muslims. its not about religion. its about GOVERNANCE!
#77 Posted by zeemax on July 14, 2007 5:16:44 am
khatam-shud,
...its about GOVERNANCE!
I agree with you to this extent. Asma Jahangir was saying the same thing yesterday that ``... let it be any `looli-langri` elected government of the people, but at-least it will be ours``
However, Lal Masjid was talking about `governance` as well, but an `Islamic` manner of Governance. But I guess you`re not into that stuff ... :)
...its about GOVERNANCE!
I agree with you to this extent. Asma Jahangir was saying the same thing yesterday that ``... let it be any `looli-langri` elected government of the people, but at-least it will be ours``
However, Lal Masjid was talking about `governance` as well, but an `Islamic` manner of Governance. But I guess you`re not into that stuff ... :)
#78 Posted by zeemax on July 14, 2007 5:20:01 am
They lost Bajaur after they bombed a madrassa and killed 80 talibs. How long will it take for them to lose Islamabad after they`ve killed a thousand?
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