The Choice of Leading a Gay Life

#2 Posted by echoboom,

YahaaN loaG galyoaN sarRkoaN pUR khoon meiN nahaa rahay haiN..

... sigh ...

i'm glad you wrote this article for chowk, i think i've read another article of yours.... maybe on al-fatiha, gay muslims website.. i'm not sure, but somewhere

anyway, an interactor named Aashee posted an audio clip of a documentary on lesbians in pakistan.... that's eye opening as well

Several insightful questions about the role of media in upholding the values and processes of fair and balanced reporting, particularly for glbt communities.

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'Everyone has their own understanding of homosexuality. To me homosexuality develops with events and then one has a choice as to which way to live your life.'

Are you saying that instead of a genetic inclination towards a certain gender, there are events in life which shape an individual's preference?

.......

echoboom,

The argument that homosexuals 'geniunely' do feel the way they do is quite solid. It may even be a disorder or a 'disease' but then so is religion..

Here's the argument for the geniuneness of homosexual feelings:

With all the scorn that is heaped upon gay behaviours and even tendencies, there has to be a strong UNDENIABLE OVERRIDING emotion which makes the former NJ Governor or conservative radio talk show host Tammy Bruce or Rock Hudson to risk being ridiculed. That alone is sufficient proof that homosexual feelings are geniune.

However, as Saadat Hasan Manto mentioned that this kind of stuff sprang into fashion in Lahore among the well to do class in the 40s, there are some who engage in it for fun.

The genetic permutation of going either way being equal, the reason we see the supression and ridicule of gays etc throughout the ages is because the heterosexuals are breeding more than the homos and passing on more of their straight genes to the next generation. Therefore the way to see gay genes being eliminated is to not to force them into marriages but to let TOLERANCE prevail and do its job.

So brother echo, it STILL ALL COMES DOWN TO BEING TOLERANT. It's like pitying (but still smiling) that anyone with a tendency to blow himself up for the cause of religion or nation should do so before he has had a chance to breed. On the other hand people like you (echo), urstruly and zeemax are perfect candidates for breeding because of your prudent, kameenay genes of just writing about jihad with no tendencies to blow yourselves up.

TOLERANCE, BABY, TOLERANCE!

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dear ali kamran....i am impressed by your honest sharing and candid focus on the issues surrounding homosexuality. being a psychotherapist i have been helping many gay and lesbian individuals and couples who struggle with their traditional families and communities. a few years ago i wrote a book in urdu about the subject...titled...
har daur main masloob...
in which i reviewed the literature from a psychological and psychiatric point of view. pakistani publisher will not publish it so it was published in india and now i have put it on my website
www.drsohail.com
urdu section...urdu books.
i am amased how many people showed interest in it.
i thought you or your friends might be interested. i am glad you opened up the dialogue on this taboo subject. sincerely sohail

Ppl shud have their choices *well said in the title). Others cant decide on it, esp in post-modern world where individualism, human rights are sacrosanct. (We have the govt of Iran hanging the gays/lesbs publicly).

I've not seen any same-sex couples in day2day life but know of some ppl copulating as the natural pairs are not available 2 them. There are established hijras (no disrepect meant) who are hijras by nature or by castration.

It's amazing that some Indians get blessed by hijras & that's normal!

In UK same-sex pairing is more of a trend. (they had reps in colleges as well).

Folio, there are many different verities of people who are not considered "normal" by society.
There are homo sexual,
there are effeminate males,
there are masculine females,
there are transvestites and drag kings,
there are transgender people,
there are eunuchs- by birth or by castration
and there are other varieties. Don't lob all of them together.

Yes the laws on Homosexuality are archaic and need revision and yes they have right to live as normal human beings. And in the case of couple in article I concur that they received unjust treatment.
But I take umbrage to public display of their sexual preferences.

Re: # 7

Cobre,

Thanks for the info. Right to life shud be the guiding law & all laws shud bow b4 that law. There4 they too had right 2 life but I was disturbed 2 see the public hangings in Iran. If the ppl are born with such feelings u cant blame them.

The 'converted' man in the article looked like a man with beard and moustache.

Homosexuality(HS) is quite common in birds as humans not rare. As Khabutarbaj and having great interest and love of my childhood observrd its was common in Pigons. In that also there was not rule and it exited in all castes of Khabutars. It was quite common anoung "Shirazis" these are beautiful tender natured and with featers on their legs these are nonaggressive.These Shirazis orginated from IRAN But then observed at other extreme end who were "Niles, Babras,Dhundas' kala Dayyar" with rings in eyes ( character associated with very aggressive and smart and in demand for these qualities)mostly considered with origin in southern India had more prevelance of HS. While inbetwwen mixed breeds not that common was my observation. Birds do not consider it unusual at all. Like male female pairs this male pair will look little strange. Generally females are smart and female is followed by male who is big. While in male HS it use to look funny that same size males use to follow each other. Male MS was extremely coomon and female HS was almost 1/10 of male is my observation as I recall. Male gay birds were never confused or shy. But females were extremely shy and they will not chase each other as males but will just will separare fron flock they will wtch eacher other covertly and gently kiss with beaks. Some how some crazy males used to attack such females savagely when gay females do not respond to male chasers. Then we use to keep them away from in their places as some times some vicious males ued to attack on head leading to leading , I always felt cruelity scocking and use to separe and protect gay females.
After these females grow large and mature then they return to flock and they were not troubled.
Once a pigon couple is married and have children then they do not devorce and very faithful.
If it happens naturally in birds and animals one should not trouble them , even though Jewish, Christian and Islam condem them. Let every body has love and let them be happy is view and Gen. Musharaff is is of that view some body close to him told him.

Dear Ali,
Thank you for picking up the issue of the same sex couple in Faislabad. I just wanted to make one addition, the couple in question was not sentenced under any homosexual act since there is no such law in the Pakistan Penal Code. They were actually given a 'light' sentence under purjury since they withheld certain evidence in court. Another factual error is that the family was not the first to approach the police to register a case, it was the couple who sought the security of the police from their respective families (more so the father of Shahzina) who were hounding them. It was ironical that the ones who had approached the law enforcing agency for security in fact got into trouble themselves. Having said this, I do think that you have done a sympathetic job of writing about the issue, there are very few people who have sided with the couple. So, thanks for raising this issue here.

As bluegaze has depicted unfortunate facts about the couple but I would like know one thing about Homosexuality or Gay Life. AK as you have been also living a gay-life for 5 yrs so I want to know do gays also have sex while living a partner? Is it also a part of their gay-life or its just liking/disliking (living together)?

Re: # 9

Ahmed Madani,

Very Very Interesting!

arrrghh.... I pen a 400-word reply and this bloody beta version eats it up!!!

Good article, Ali. Nothing new, really, but relevant and important as ever...

A few random thoughts for now:

Thanks for pointing out the biggest abomination that resulted, and keeps rsulting, from the kinds of verdicts, be it from the court of law or the court of public opinion, such as that of meted out to Shahzina and Shumail. (Yes, the charge was perjury but that's only because nothing else would stick). You rightly point out that it is a horrible society that can lock up lovers for engaging in victimless crimes while it (society) routinely looks the other way on felonies like large-scale daylight robbery called "loan defaulting", wife-beating, and murder (if the victim happens to be merely accused of blasphemy)

I suspect this is an indication of the number of their own demons our society members need to fight and/or a cheap route to cheapened self-righteousess.

Anyway, re. the couple, it's worht pointing out that Shumail(a) had ambiguous-gender issues since cilldhood. His/her sex-operations wasn't merely a ploy to "cheat" the law. There was an interesting article in The News by a physiologist that highlighted the medical fact gender is hardly as cut-and-dried, black-and-white as most presume. It's possible that this article led to the release, a week or so later, of the couple.

More later... esp on your suggestion that homosexuality isn't necessarily a genetic disposition. That's interesting and opens up some really relevant issues.

BTW, Here's a cool article from among the related links

re. cobra #7:

You point to the spectrum of "misfits" in society, averring that they need to not be discriminated against, but then you end with "But I take umbrage to public display of their sexual preferences."

Pray, what do you take as a "public display" of their "sexual preferences"? At what point do gender roles and characteristics (sticking with the stereotypical misfits you mention) become sexuality-parading?? Dressing in drag? But no one outside Mardaan considers a woman wearing a dress as flouting her sexuality publicly!

Or perhaps you're referring to them holding hands and acting all lovey dovey? Well, go to any park (outside of Quetta) and witness (hetero) couples doing the same, without being labelled sexually promiscuous!

Could it be that even as you call for those on the fringes gender/sexual 'normality' to be accepted as "normal", you want a different set of 'normal' rules to apply to them as to the really normal?

Ali, you write:
"Everyone has their own understanding of homosexuality. To me homosexuality develops with events and then one has a choice as to which way to live your life."

This is interesting. It's a theory (of the etiology/causes of homosexuality) that hasn't gained much currency in the West. I think it takes a brave person to make it, and personally, I think it's also a more honest because it kind of forces you to take responsibility for your actions, if not completely for your feelings.

That homosexuality may not (always) have a genetic or biological origin is something that the G&L movement in the West refuses to consider, because most there are more concerned with political, mainstream, acceptance more than with the truth about homosexuality. The Born-this-Way line (which actually has little scientific basis) buys them greater acceptance among the general population than the one suggesting Pure Choice. (Or so they like to think! I personally feel that people don't think of others as less normal if they're born with that "abnormality"-- they merely patronize them more!)

But let's be clear: Not being born "this way" doesn't automatically suggest a choice. You mention 'events' shaping one's sexuality. Some decades ago, a French (I think) psychologist propounded the same theory. Most of the seminal events, or influences, he listed were in fact non-sexual, dating back to early childhood.

But yes, in a world where being gay, and living a gay lifestyle do not in any way pose a threat to the security of society (in fact, may very well be the solution to some of society's problems, not least of all over-population), gay people should PROUDLY and unabashedly affirm that their lifestyle is in fact a CHOICE.

It's only a matter of time before this becomes as accepted as inter-racial marriages, which gained genuine and widespread acceptance only when individuals flouted their choice publicly.

In searching for the article on the biology of gender i mentione earlier, I came across this post, which I think is really worth a thread of its own:

This is in response to Fatima Bhutto's above-titled article published on June 3. The article has hurt my feelings and the feelings of millions of Pakistanis who believe in the family system. The writer gives an example of her teacher, Professor Dennis Dalton, who encountered a man picking his nose on a bus and did not say anything to him because his action was not harming the society. I would like to inform the learned columnist that same sex marriage is a lot worse than picking one's nose in public and definitely harms the moral fabric of the society. If the writer appreciates such actions she should do so within the walls of her own house and has no right to hurt our feelings. We are simple straight people and please let us remain so. Don't make a Mukhtaran Mai out of Shehzina and Shumail.

Engr Faraz Ahmad

Rawalpindi

Biology and the 'she couple'

By Charles Ferndale

(The writer has a master's in clinical psychology from the Institute of Psychiatry, University of London and a bachelor's in physiology, psychology and philosophy from Oxford University. Email: charlesferndale@yahoo.co.uk)

The criminal conviction of the so-called 'same sex' couple, Shumail Raj and Shehzina Tariq, of perjury and the sentencing of them to three years (in separate prisons) was a barbarous act, uninformed by justice, simple decency or science. But if you, the reader, do not already think so, then my saying so is unlikely to persuade you to change your mind. Nevertheless, I hope some real science might persuade you to see that the case in question should be appealed immediately and the couple set free while a new trial is prepared. I hope this short article might help to re-open the case and contribute, if only slightly, to a fairer trial next time. Ideally the charges against the couple should be dropped entirely, so there is no need for a new trial. This couple should never have been brought to trial.

Click here to read the rest of the article.

Re: # 9 Wow!

Recently a lesbian (gay) couple was arrested in Faisalabad, Their relative relatives learned of this pretty late in the game but as soon as it was discovered they lodged a FIR against Here I would like to add that even with repeated efforts and an offer for large sum as guarantee the bailiff refused to grant bail to the couple I know a lot of my friends who came out of closet and actually dared to tell their parents about their sexuality; most of them were accepted but not without trouble ever since; if not from their fathers, then from their mothers if not from their parents then from their siblings. To me homosexuality develops with events Being Gay to me is choosing an alternate life style and its not being ‘girlie’ (nothing like Begum Nawazish Ali),

Recently a lesbian (gay) couple was arrested in Faisalabad, Their relative relatives learned of this pretty late in the game but as soon as it was discovered they lodged a FIR against Here I would like to add that even with repeated efforts and an offer for large sum as guarantee the bailiff refused to grant bail to the couple I know a lot of my friends who came out of closet and actually dared to tell their parents about their sexuality; most of them were accepted but not without trouble ever since; if not from their fathers, then from their mothers if not from their parents then from their siblings. To me homosexuality develops with events Being Gay to me is choosing an alternate life style and its not being ‘girlie’ (nothing like Begum Nawazish Ali),

mr u write da article very well.u explained ur views ur points very well.BUT u should know it dat along wid all of its bad things,all of its actions dat our govet had done against islam but still it is ISLAMIC REPUBLIC.Still there BAAMAL muslims although few but they are.HOMOSEXUALITY is something strictly forbidden by ALLAH.N IF U search da history u will find such examples where there in nations started this gr8 sin they fall victims of da QEHER OF ALLAH''.ALLAH HAd given us signals through da 8th october earthquake abt our wrong doings.its da signal to lead our selves on the right path.I WILL SAY THAT AS TODAY WE ARE UNDER SUCH DISGUSTING LEADERSHIP IS BECAUSE OF OUR SINS.AND THE THING WHOM U R FAVOURING IS GREATEST OF ALL SINS.think abt DA LIFE AFTER DEATH...

mr u write da article very well.u explained ur views ur points very well.BUT u should know it dat along wid all of its bad things,all of its actions dat our govet had done against islam but still it is ISLAMIC REPUBLIC.Still there BAAMAL muslims although few but they are.HOMOSEXUALITY is something strictly forbidden by ALLAH.N IF U search da history u will find such examples where there in nations started this gr8 sin they fall victims of da QEHER OF ALLAH''.ALLAH HAd given us signals through da 8th october earthquake abt our wrong doings.its da signal to lead our selves on the right path.I WILL SAY THAT AS TODAY WE ARE UNDER SUCH DISGUSTING LEADERSHIP IS BECAUSE OF OUR SINS.AND THE THING WHOM U R FAVOURING IS GREATEST OF ALL SINS.think abt DA LIFE AFTER DEATH...

Hi Kamran, Thank you SOOO much for writing this article. I myself wanted to speak about the couples ordeal in dawn but choose to remain slient seeing the homophobia in Pakistan. I am a gay male of Pakistani origin in canada and let me tell Pakistanis a few things. There are so many things wrong with the verdict and I ma happy Pakistan didnt stone them like Iran. In Iran for example sex change is allowed to that couple would be valid. Second, most arab countries say even Oman allow homosexual relaions as in prostitutes over women. Not to mention how much homosexuality exists in our society. And btw where is Pakistans own culture. I can come to canada and get canadian citizenship but not arab. Why do we have this fascination of becoming arab to be musliom..where is our pAKISTANIYAT..TURKS DONT WANNA BE ARABS. plz open up and develop as a society, God look at how afgahnistan's kicked ur ass since the american moved in and u just have towait and see where that country willbe in five years. Learn Pakistanis learn, cuz those who dont learn from history are forced to live it!

I suspect some of the facts are incorrect.

1) Shumail is a transgendered man and it is a trans issue as oppsoed to a lesbian one.

2) The Supreme Court granted them bail.

3) The father was not as much concerned about lesbianism, a charge he brought forth, as on the fact he couldn't marry his daughter to pay off the uncle's debts.

I had written this earlier but something strange happened and twice my response came out the way it did.

Please see my ilogs for more information on homosexuality and Pakistan and general information in the Muslim context.

While generally I can understand where you are coming from, there is some element in your article that I am not comfortable with, principally being the use of the word 'girlie'. I think that ought not to have been there.

Some men are feminine and some women masculine, like orientation, gender too lies on a spectrum.

Finally, I do not agree that some people can think whatever they wish to think about gays. If people mentioned negative things about Jews, they'd be charged with anti-semitism. It should be no different in the case of sexual minorities as well.

Why would anyone CHOOSE to be gay... what a stupid idea, who the hell wants to go thru all that trouble... sexuality is NOT A CHOICE...

the only ones that can choose are bisexuals cause they can be with anyone, heteros and homos dont have that choice

sufi soul

waht about life BEFORE death!

would you want your sister to be married to a gay guy, so that his family can keep society happy? No you wouldn't so dont contribute to the situation where this happens...

Yeah we are sexually active. Its intresting , we started out to have sex at the start of relationship then its twice or thrice a week maybe more after five year of relationship.
Cheers

Thanks to the chowk staff to publish the write-up and cheers to everyone for reading and taking intrest in it . I got almost 30-40 emails .. regarding the article.
cheers.

I'm glad that the debate of homosexuality has finally come to the fore. The entire incidence has directed the countrys attention to this issue- an issue that has always been swept under the carpet. Keep the debate alive- till the shock subsides.

As a gay man who discarded my Roman Catholicism in my mid-20s (why did I take so long?) when I came out, I'm constantly exasperated by the way so many religions - Christianity and (even more?), Islam in particular - talk about BEING gay as a choice. The heading of this thread is accurately expressed - the choice we actually have is to (a) pretend to be hetero. (b) suppress all our sexual instincts and live an asexual, celibate life, or (c) to be true to ourselves and attempt to live emotionally and physically fulfilled. This is not even slightly recognised in either the Bible or the Koran which both treat us as making the 'evil choice' of DECIDING to be homosexual, as though we could just as easily have chosen to be hetero, which is one of several reasons which leads me to believe that whoever wrote the words of the Bible and the Koran, it certainly wasn't the 'Creator' (if there is one) - the author clearly not having a clue about the nature of sexuality, talking as though we find men and women equally sexually attractive and should decide to follow the one 'permitted' way in the same way that, well, that I have decided to be a veggie. Well, I for one certainly can't claim to be bi-sexual. You'd think that if being gay was so wrong, there would at least be some acknowledgment that we should be afforded GREATER understanding not LESS - or even no understanding at all, as is almost exclusively preached. No, my homosexuality is as integral to my being as is my swarthy colour - I don't want to change either, and I wouldn't even if I could!

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