Does Islam, in fact, Encourage Paedophilia?

hamidm: "but don't you think we should expect better from our prophets ?"

Not really. See my post #196 to Ajeya.

Also, I expect better from you than to ask such questions. Or do you seriously believe that you expect an ordinary human being to walk on water, so-to-speak? Even christians had to elevate their prophet to divine status before they bought off on that.

DM: you wrote "You may recall that when I wrote my article on female infanticide in India, Indians did discuss and mostly condemned the practice."

Actually, I dont recall that article. In any case, my point is that you dont condemn an entire religion due to something done in its name. Otherwise (as I have painstakingly tried to demonstrate by giving examples of Shintoism, Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism) every religion stands condemned. Every ideology (including Democracy, Capitalism, Communism) stands condemned. And that while Indians are adept at this (and some are full time specialists like JayP), you dont find Pakistanis returning the favor.

Thus: in your article, how many Pakistanis do you recall jumping to condemn Indians as having a "killer gene", or hinduism as preaching infanticide?? Not one I would bet. Unlike what you see Indians doing all the time. That is my point.

ps: Shouldnt it be "sawal gandam, jawab chanaa"?

re. Urstruly #16*

As I explained to PM in several posts below, a legally married relationship between an older male and a younger female (who is at puberty, not before) is not only biologically and anthropologically viable but it is also in the nature of both males and females."

I think it's accepted Science that some age disparity is anthropologically advantageous, owing to the fact that women tend to age faster than men, for one. However, a lot rides on the question of What is a suitable age difference? Some anthro guy came up with the formula of "twice the girl's age minus 10 years" as a good rule of thumb.) Obviously, there are limits to viable disparity.

" It is a universal and documented fact that the older and middle aged men are acutely attracted to pubescent girls and vice versa is also true. It is a scientifically documented fact, which can be verified simply by Google. Every medical and psychology journal will also attest to this fact."

Urstruly, please help out. I've tried googling out the above, without any success. And assuming you do post some links, if you're up to it, please explain under what conditions "natural" becomes "halal" in this case.

Repeat post. The question is the same. Only one hindu attempted and that too just abusing Islam.

No one answered FV's question that how many of the bhartis' Muslim neighbours have been after their nine year olds?

The same cannot be however said about hindoos themselves. It appears plenty are after pre-teens. It's good business.

Free a Child.org

In India, millions of girls – some as young as 11 – are sold into prostitution. Beaten, raped and forced to live in cages, they have little hope of escape and run an ever-increasing risk of death from AIDS.

Mumbai, a megalopolis of 20 million people, best known by its former name Bombay, is a city in which extravagant mansions overlook the largest slum on earth. Not far from Western-style restaurants that serve the bejeweled elite, one-third of the city’s residents live without running water in hovels constructed of plastic, cardboard and metal sheeting.

In the midst of such poverty and wealth, and far from the routes cleared for President Clinton’s recent state visit, is the world’s largest red-light district, Kamathipura. India has more than two million prostitutes, according to the latest government-sponsored survey. But that was nine years ago, and today the number is considerably higher, possibly double. Five hundred thousand of them, half of whom are minors and indentured sex slaves, suffer hellish existences in Mumbai’s brothels.

Lured from impoverished villages throughout India, Nepal and Bangladesh, young girls are tapped by local recruiters who promise to give them coveted jobs working as domestics or in factories in the big cities. Or they are sold by relatives or neighbors. “If a father has five daughters, he sells two to feed the other three,” says Durga Ghimere, head of ABC Nepal, an agency aiding former sex slaves. Others are duped by brothel procurers who marry them and as many as one hundred other victims. Illiterate and raised to be compliant, these girls have no idea of their fates until they are abandoned in the brothels, but by then it’s too late.

Young girls are auctioned off to the brothels regularly: A pre-teen with light skin goes for as much as $1000; darker-skinned girls sell for $200 to $300. But such sums are recouped by the brothel in a girl’s first few weeks of work. A customer typically pays $45 for a virgin; after her first time, she’ll be turning tricks for one dollar each, with the price dropping to 25 cents in the early hours of the morning, when the customers thin out.

“I was auctioned to the highest bidder when I was 12,” says Yellu. “He became my master, and I had to have sex with him. At 14, he sold me to this brothel. I’ve been here ever since.” It’s where she will stay until she succumbs to tuberculosis, malaria or AIDS. “Seven girls have died from AIDS in this room in the last two years,” she says.

The brothel where Yellu works is a tiny room at the top of a rickety staircase, its banister greasy with the sweat of countless customers’ hands. Inside, there is barely space to move: Three wooden cots, divided by tattered curtains, take up most of the floor space; two more cots are in the hallway. Yellu’s children, aged 5 and 18 months, play on the floor. It’s here that Yellu and her companions service customers from 5 p.m. until dawn. But since the brothel is open for business 24 hours a day, drop-in customers are common at any hour. Outside, on Falkland Road, where bordellos line the street, a mass of men window-shop the human wares.

Yellu is a Devidasi, a socially created prostitute, who was dedicated at the age of 9 by her family to the goddess Yellamma. Devdasis, who come from India’s lowest social caste, the Untouchables, or Dalits, are bonded as slaves to serve higher castes. A few become concubines of the wealthy; the rest are sold off as prostitutes at puberty to appease gods and guard against diseases. The centuries-old system of Devdasis was outlawed in 1987, but since the fine is only 2500 rupees ($59) – far less than a virgin girl brings at auction – the law is largely ignored by parents and police alike.

Up to 80 percent of India’s two million prostitutes are infected with HIV, and a third of those have AIDS.

Now 25, Yellu spends any free time in her tiny room, sleeping when she can, or nursing her youngest child. In the corner is a box off government-distributed condoms, but they are poorly made of thick rubber. “We try to use condoms now that we know about HIV. But man y men won’t use them. They say it spoils their pleasure. And if we insist, they go somewhere else.”

Yellu is lucky she can even suggest a condom to a customer. Girls like Bibi never had that choice. Now 13, Bibi learned recently that she is HIV-positive. However, along with most HIV-positive sex slaves, she is unlikely to receive any medication. Untreated, these infected prostitutes deteriorate rapidly, and once they are too sick to work, they are tossed out on the street to die a painful death.

When she was 11, Bibi was brought to Mumbai from Calcutta by two men. They promised her father that she would be given work looking after a house and a baby. Relieved to have one less mouth to feed, he looked forward to the day his daughter would send some of her earnings home. Instead, Bibi was sold for 10,000 rupees ($238) to a brothel and told she couldn’t leave until she paid back her purchase price, plus 10 percent interest.

Describing her first night in the brothel, Bibi says: “I didn’t even have breasts yet, but men forced me to have sex. They hurt me bad. I cried for the next two years. Nobody cared.” Bibi was confined to a narrow cubicle, some 28 inches wide, known as a pinjra, and told that any attempt to escape would result in a severe beating or even torture. Locked in this airless, windowless cage, she was left without food or water for days. Then she was gang-raped to insure her compliance. Her world soon became a thin, gruesomely stained mattress, on which she serviced customers day after day, night after night. She was never allowed to refuse a customer or a sex act. Not surprisingly, Bibi soon fell ill. “I was having bad fevers,” she says, “but no matter how sick I was, I had to let customers to what they wanted.”

India now has more people living with HIV/AIDS than any country in the world. According to the latest UNAIDS statistics, the country has about four million infected adults and children. And that rate is doubling every 18 to 24 months, says I.S. Gilada, M.D., a leading Indian AIDS expert. Surveys show that 67 to 80 percent of India’s prostitutes are infected with HIV, and a third of those have AIDS.

Tragically, as the incidence of HIV in India rises, the average age of the indentured prostitutes declines. “Now, with HIV, most men prefer 10- to 12-year-old prostitutes,” says Vipula Kadri, founder of Save the Children India, “while a decade ago, they wanted more experienced girls.” Persistent myths in India hold that sex with young virgins not only restores a man’s virility, but also cures him of sexually transmitted diseases. Consequently, very young prostitutes, who are the most vulnerable to HIV because their vaginal and anal tissue is frequently torn, are worked the hardest, servicing up to 40 customers a day. They are also made to work when pregnant, often until a few days before delivery, or are back working within a week after they have abortions.

Kamla was pregnant and 22 when she was sold to a brothel three years ago. Like all the others, she was told she couldn’t leave until she had paid back her purchase price. “I didn’t want to work because I was pregnant, but the brothel manager told me I had no choice.” Almost immediately after Kamla gave birth, she was forced back to work. “I’m very frightened one of the clients will abuse my daughter,” she says. “I don’t want her to end up like me.”

Babies are placed under brothel beds and drugged with opium to make them sleep, so the clients won’t know they’re there.

Kamla’s fears are very real. The children of sex slaves are often inducted into the profession at an early age. “Customers view the children in brothels as bonuses,” says Priti Patkar, a social worker who co-founded Prerana, a volunteer agency that runs a night crèche for the children of prostitutes in India. “Kids are placed under the beds in the brothels because there is nowhere else for them to go. Babies are drugged with opium to make them sleep, so the clients won’t know they’re there. Not surprisingly, these children become second-generation prostitutes. In the brothels, girl babies are welcomed, because it’s cheaper to breed prostitutes than import them, whereas in normal Indian life, everyone wants to have boys.”

The night crèche, in the middle of the red-light district, gives kids a safe place to sleep, two meals a day and a bath. But because of limited funding, only 80 children can be cared for, and only those prostitutes who have paid off their purchase price are free to drop off their children for the night. In addition to the services the crèche provides, the Prerana staff also tries to empower prostitutes to use condoms. “But if Indian wives can’t get their husbands to use condoms,” ask Patkar, “how can sex slaves, who are totally powerless, get men use them?”

With the risk of infection so great, why do Indian men visit these brothels on a regular basis? Sunil, 27, who works in a travel agency, summed it up as he left a brothel on a Saturday afternoon: “I come here for my enjoyment. I like to visit different ones to experiment. The Nepalese girls are the best, because they strip totally naked, and I like their golden skin.” He says he always uses a condom, and adds that he’ll stop visiting brothels when he marries next year. “then I’ll have a wife, and I won’t need to.” But he insists his bride be a virgin, and sees no double standard in that. “Why” Because I’m a man, of course.”

“The police are involved up to the top levels, and they are making millions off these young girls.”

The number of vulnerable women who find themselves at the mercy of abusive customers, brothel managers and usurious loan sharks (who advance them money to buy food and water while they6’re in debt to the brothels) is increasing at an alarming rate, but the situation is routinely overlooked by those in positions to change it. In a recent UNICEF report on sex trafficking in Mumbai, the authors concluded: “Politicians are indifferent, and children are seen as commodities. It is rare, if at all, that traffickers and brothel owners are punished because politicians and public health officials are in league with the mafia that runs the lucrative flesh trade.

All of the above in this day and age.

And yet, do I see the hindu brigade moralizing here on a formal marriage but with an age difference perfectly acceptable for the time it occured?

#227,

... and let me add to that ... that I offer the same prayer (grin). But that's besides the point.

The point is that Quran goes all out to confer speical status to the Prophet (pbuh). I don't know how a person reading Quran can miss this.

For example, Quran encourages believers to marry widows. That's fine and dandy. But then Quran commands believers not to marry Prohpet's widows once he (pbuh) has departed!!!

And tahmed Sahib claims that there is nothing speical in Quran about the Prophet (pbuh). Yes, denial is a river in Egypt.

PM,

"Even if Islam does "encourage" paedophilia (or marriage to children), at least the facts on the ground suggest that not many Muslims are encouraged"

.... thank god for small favors ........ luckily there are people with common sense who don't think that the prophet is the “best model” for believers (33:21) and choose to ignore allah mian's self serving command: "if you love Allah, then follow the Prophet (3:31)"

Just to be technically correct Urstruly the Quran does not mention how to pray :)

I mostly agree PM although id say he (the Prophet PBUH) may have for eg driven a camel but pakis who can afford it will drive cars so thats not JUST doing additional things but infact NOT doing things the way he did. Anyway it doesnt matter, i agree with the substance of what you said.

Re: # 225

And let me add to that that a Muslim's prayer i.e. Namaz that he must offer 5 times a day does not complete without a saluattion to the Holy Prophet (pbuh) AND his progeny twice in every unit (rakaat).

re. cliftonbridge #218:
"Clearly even the most hardlining muslims use phones, they go to school, they use the internet, etc etc etc ....so clearly not only did the Prophet NOT ask to be emulated down to the last detail noone does that as a matter of faith either."

Cliffy, nice try. But I can't help seeing a flaw in your logic here. Sure, the hardest of hardliners will do stuff that the Prophet couldn't possibly have done, such as you've mentioned. That, however, isn't the same as NOT doing things the way he did. Performing all the activities you mention doesn't not prevent one from emulating him in every known detail.

That said, I agree with you on that a vast majority of Muslims do not seek to emulate the more unconventional practices of the Prophet anyway. How common is polygyny among Muslims -- even among those who CAN afford more than one wife? I won't even ask how many endorse, let alone practice, marriage to child-brides.

Even if Islam does "encourage" paedophilia (or marriage to children), at least the facts on the ground suggest that not many Muslims are encouraged.

Here’s some more … addition to #220:

And it is incorrect to assert that Quran limits Prophet’s role to merely that of the messenger.

It is only in context of those who continue to defy and rebel against the prophet, that Quran asks the Prophet to only convey the message.

However, in context of believers, Prophet’s role is noticeably expanded. Here, he is commanded by Allah to convey the message, to purify believers, and to instruct them in scripture and in wisdom (Quran, 62:2). He is also called “best model” for believers (33:21). Believers are commanded that … if you love Allah, then follow the Prophet (3:31)!!!! They are further commanded to send salutations to the Prophet (33:56) just like Allah and angels do. They are also commanded to give alms when consulting with the Prophet (58:12) …

Along similar lines, Quran tells of people who rebelled against Allah’s prophets, and as a consequent, incurred Allah’s wrath. Then Quran declares Muhammad (pbuh) a prophet of Allah. Can anyone guess the subtle message here?

Now, read the following carefully ... word by word.

Do I hear any hindu moralizing here?

So what was Allah thinking when he chose Mohammad as a
messenger? Why did he choose him?
Allah should/must have explained at least a little bit
it somewhere!

Did Allah not know that there would such a controversy
arise in future times about his marriage to Aisha,
so why let the marriage happen?

Why not choose some erudite scholar or some king/prince
or some impeccable personality as a prophet?

Surely anything can happen whatever Allah wills right?

tahmed32:

"Given that Indians have even more backward customs today (including marriages of children to old men), given that Indians have far more stupid, superstitious ways (bathing gods in milk, allowing cows to roam on streets and create a mess on the roads, and so on) than perhaps any people on earth today other than some remote jungle tribes, why do they act so shocked that 14 centuries ago (when societies were far more primitive than today) a man married an underage girl? That is what I mean."

Sawaal gandam, jawaab cheenam! Is it mandatory for Hindu/Indian chowkies to discuss these problems regardless of what the topic of discussion is? You may recall that when I wrote my article on female infanticide in India, Indians did discuss and mostly condemned the practice.

hamidm #159:

"...... what kind of a question is that?......... do you think any nine year old will not be traumatized by having to submit to a fifty year old? "

HamidmiaN, I'll admit that 9 years is a shocker. OTOH, studies from more 'primitive' societies suggest that even 12 year-olds are more than ready for sex and childbirth. That takes care of the "physical maturity" part. (Where age disparity need not matter.) The 'emotional maturity' is more complex, and here age disparity would seem to matter. But the harm that results comes mainly from the meanings attached (by society) to these acts, and some from the incompatibility of the child's aspirations (WHAT ARE THEY??)with the adults. For these reasons, in our day and age, it would be unthinkable to let a 12-yo, let alone a 9 yo, marry a 55 yo.

"..... a lot of abused children outwardly appear to be okay, but that does not lessen their suffering ..... like all those choir boys abused by their priests, the children might be able to bury their horrible memories for a while, but the pain lingers just below the surface ........."

Again, I'm sorry but I don't buy into this ABUSE BY SUGGESTION. I'm not denying some children are abused. But I am suggesting that it's more than a little odd that 650 Johnnies suddenly start to feel they were abused, in a society like the U.S., for years on end when they were in their teens. And not even by some real authority figure like a father (which would make their stories more believable), but by a priest!

Don't get me wrong... I'm sure some hanky-panky happened in all those cases... I'm saying that the "abuse" in most cases is imputed onto what would otherwise largely have been neutral to positive experiences. (and let's not forget the financial incentive here to feel victimised!)

And yes, I do have solid statistical evidence to back this up.

....... and even though child marriage was common in that society, i think people have every right to expect better judgement from a prophet .........

I can agree with you here. Except that, if I were a Muslim, I'd probably say, like TAhmed I think, that hey, the guy was human. Maybe it never even crossed his mind that he'd be doing something that would be considered extremely naughty in ages to come.

And yes, I agree that those who see him as the Perfect Man, to be emulated in every way possible, are up a creek here.

Re (#196),

… as for the prophet - I believe that he had a spiritual experience in the cave, and he relayed it honestly (and this is the key, and I'll come back to it in a minute) to his followers. He thus fulfilled his role as messenger, which is all that is expected from him. He is not considered to be an angel or a divine being who must be perfect in every way - that is too much to expect from any human being, and it takes away nothing from the fact that he played his role of messenger quite faithfully.

His honesty: The message that he relayed (as written down in the Quran) clearly limits his role to that of a messenger. It explicitly denies him any role in implementation. If he was not honest, there is every reason to believe that he would have left these parts out.

+++

tahmed, There’s a lot you have missed. You should first read Quran … all of it, and not just parts that conform to your own ideas. Quran does confer special status to the Prophet (pbuh). Here are but a few examples:

In 33:53, Quran admonishes believers not to marry Prophet’s wives after he has departed. What does this sound like to you???

In 33:30, Quran warns that Prophet’s wives will get twice the punishment for their sins (presumably compared to other women who sin). Seems like Allah is playing favorites here. No?

In 33:30, Quran addresses the Prophet: “O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives ……… and any believing woman who dedicates her soul to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes to wed her;- this only for thee, and not for the Believers (at large) …”

Here again you see a special provision for the Prophet only, and not for other believers!

I could go on, but this should suffice for now. Moving on …

You believe (on what basis? I wonder) that Muhammad had spiritual experience and you accept him as a prophet. No problem. But when an Ahmadi says the same thing about Mirza Sahib, you claim that Ahamdis are setting up intermediaries between man and god.

These are but a few blatant contradictions in your views … which come across as hypocrisy, more than anything else.

hamidm2

Dude the topic under discussion is mo the mighty and not Michael jackson...So sod off....