Does Islam, in fact, Encourage Paedophilia?

Kaal (#393),

I don’t think anyone can know what tahmed Sahib would opine; his reasoning remains a shrouded mystery. But yes, people’s faith should be left alone. We are all only trying to make sense of it all, just trying to get by …

+++

DM (#392), you’re welcome.

tahmed and I have a bit of history (grin); we go way back. He has a fetish for criticizing others for their faith. I keep reminding him that his own faith is just as absurd as everyone else’s.

(I say we stick him with the coffee bill and bail out … before he starts the next lecture on Quran and rationality ...)

Sattar sahib

You are a good warrior. To my mind you did very well in # 391. we can't say what tahmed sahib or other mainstream Muslims will opine though. Pursuing this further can be quite a mess. Personally, I will just leave it alone, on people's faith...which can be respected on its own terms.

sattar:

Thanks for the clarification. I think I knew but the vehmency of your posts surprised me.

kaal,

I’ll tread carefully … am getting a feeling your post is booby trapped : )

Two options you have outlined (correctly, it seems) are:
(1) Muhammad added stuff to Quran
(2) Allah plays favorites and treats Muhammad differently than others

(1) strikes out basis of Islam for every Muslim. (2) strikes out the basis of tahmed’s Islam. Either way, tahmed’s Islam, wrapped up in rationality, remains a tough sell.

I am not saying much, but that there are obvious contradictions in tahmed’s claims. It is like calling a dog … a cat … and expecting to be believed. ”But it barks!”, I am contending. ”Trust me, I believe it is a cat”, responds tahmed. And we go in circles.

Moving on …

Now, it is quite possible that chapter 44 of Quran nulls and voids chapters 1-43, declaring them all a divine joke. If that’s the case, then Sahib should show some evidence of this. But for him to disregard the obvious, while merely insisting, comes across as naive.

Moving on further …

Note that my contention has nothing to do with my faith … in Islam, or Muhammad, or Mirza Sahib, or anything else. I am simply reading tahmed’s claims on chowk, looking up Quran, and finding obvious contradictions. That’s it. Nothing more, nothing less.

(And I’ll make a brief comment on prophet issue: mainstream Muslims raise doubts against Mirza Sahib. Fair enough. Non-Muslims raise doubts about Prophet Muhammad. Fair enough? This is a never-ending game … do you really have time for it??)

sattar sahib, playing the devil's advocate is perfedtly alright, but let's see where we are at :)

You established (for some, at least) that either Prophet Muhammad wasn't merely conveying what he heard or the message itself included personal favors to Prophet Muhammad.

Ruling out the first option, on faith, if nothing else, the second option would imply that the faith itself included a special status and special privileges for the one receiving the message.

Which is what you have been saying, and actually zee and many others have been saying.

Just want to make sure we get that right.

P.S.: If we agree on the above, would your next argument be that God chooses messangers irrespective of their personal trustworthiness/characteristics/etc, given that Muslims normally raise doubts about Mirza Sahib?

DM (#366),

I don’t doubt that tahmed believes what he says. But belief is not the point at all. The discussion started with his attempts to rationalize his belief to others.

The issue here are claims that Quran does not treat Muhammad any differently. tahmed went all out making this point … basing his belief in Quran on this claim.

He overlooked the fact that Quran goes to great lengths conferring special status to Muhammad. This clearly undermines his claims of rationality. But he remains in denial. It seems his belief is not based upon evidence or reason, but on blind faith … not that there’s anything wrong with it.

But tahmed needs to be careful when pushing his belief as rationality. To make such claims, while ignoring obvious contradictions, comes across as disingenuous, or foolish at the very least.

+++

I have complete faith in Quran and Muhammad, and whether or not this makes me a Muslim is irrelevent. At times I play the devil’s advocate … it keeps things interesting. What is important is that one should be consistent in one’s criteria to judge. Such evenhandedness in gauging beliefs … one’s own as well as others’ … is a virtue worth striving for.

… nothing wrong with coffee chats in cyberspace … it’s all good fun. But one needs to take a look at himself before criticizing others. Otherwise he should pick up the tab for all the coffee and pastries ... No?

i think i will rountinely start reading the frontier post. No-one else seems to see the forest for the trees in FATA.

Govt spending billions on education in FATA

PESHAWAR (NNI): The government is spending billions of rupees over promotion of education sector in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA) every year and as a result of huge investment in education sector the number of educational establishments has gone up to 5349 in 2006-07 against 4842 in 2002-03 while enrolment registered an increase of 32 per cent. A total of 507 more educational institutions were established, according to a handout of the FATA Media Cell, during the past four years, out of which 288 were community schools, 182 primary schools, 17 middle schools and 27 high schools. Ten more colleges were also established during the period. Enrolment in the all institutions of tribal areas recorded tremendous increase, 32 per cent, since 2002. All the new institutions, according to the handout, are being established on 60:40 ratio for girls and boys, in a bid to improve the female literacy rate in tribal areas. The government has spent Rs 42 million during the year 2006-07 to provide free textbooks to female students enrolled in government schools of FATA. A total of 559,521 students were enrolled in schools and colleges during 2006-07 against 422,688 in 2002-03 after the tribal youth were provided more opportunities at their nearest. Presently 290,443 were studying in primary schools, 69,703 in middle, 103,095 in high and 7186 were being imparted education in higher secondary schools. Besides, 11,107 students were enrolled in colleges, 14,036 in mosque schools, 61,685 in community schools and 2274 in industrial homes. All these statistics reflect 29 per cent more enrollment was recorded in primary schools, 5 per cent in middle, 27 per cent in high and 51 per cent in higher secondary schools. Apart from that, 97 per cent more students got admission in colleges, 2 per cent in mosque schools, 157 per cent in community model schools and 7 per cent more students were enrolled in industrial homes for girls. Over 2593 more teachers were recruited during the past four years with an over all 14 per cent increase to meet the requirements after an outstanding increase in establishments and enrolment. At present a total of 21504 teachers were imparting education in different institutions. The number of teachers in 2002-03 was 18,911. During the past four years, three degree colleges were upgraded and postgraduate classes were introduced in the colleges of Khar (Bajaur Agency), Parachinar (Kurram Agency) and Miranshah (North Waziristan Agency). There was only one higher education facility for girls in all the seven tribal agencies and six FRs till 2002-03 which have now increased to 11 in the past four years as the government has focused more on boosting up female literacy.

#386 Posted by echoboom,

Yeah I realized after my post ... wrong board ... :)

Zeemax:
Incidently, Masadi is talking about the Numero Uno Morono
of CHOWK...the guy who once ran the world-bank from his basement.

LoL ...

The present Dr. Fraud, was Dr. Archie Freud in US, wase Dr. Arshad Fareed in Lahore, was our own from our pind: the Phheedaa from chuk 420 mauzaa Harrappa.

Zeemax:
:) :) :)

Well Zee!
Purday meiN rehnay doa, Pardaah naa UuthhaO
Pardah jo khuul gaya, toa "Chhaid" khuul jaaey Gaa

Haaa Haaa...

Please refer to my writings about the journey of fareeda the village idiot, to Freed the tongued-one (ahle-zubaan), to Dr. Freud in US, to Dr. Fraud in Pak, & back to Pheeda in his ancestoral village.
Just google chowk for Dr.Fraud: then go to interacts of echoboom

#382 Posted by echoboom,

Well ... jokes aside ... I recently met a chowkie who knows daagdar sohail personally and said he is extremely shallow. And this guy was a liberaloon!

Masadi:379

The Moron you are talking about has repeatedly asserted that whatever religious knowledge one need s one gets in the Kindergarten. The Moron does his tilawat of Sura-e Ba Ba Blacksheep, Suraa Twinkle-Twinkle and Suraa-e Jack-&-Jill
5 times a day..Breakfast, 2 coffe-breks, Lunch and Dinner.

The Moron you are alluding to licks the hand , arse, and balls of the Maashter who feeds him 5 times a day. The moron you are talking about is the mangy mongrel who returns with a renewed vigor everytime someone tries to unknot his tail....as in the words of a celebrated poet

" Shayad Mujhhay nikaal kay pachhtaa rahain hoan aap
mehfil meiN iss khiyaal say phhir aa gaya hoon meiN"

tr:
Maybe now you are remorseful & feeling for kicking me out.
So, with such thought in my mind, I am back amongst you

OKZee. gtg.

Folio,

I'm afraid I'll have to agree with masadi's #379 on this :)

Being a "messenger of Allah", is a status much higher than being a stenographer of George Bush. The former is chosen for a task that cannot be achieved through mechanical training or exercise, the latter can be a moron like his master, the Bush man, but can be trained fairly rapidly. To the former is revealed knowledge firsthand, to reach parts of which would require several lifetimes, the latter, working for the Bush man pushes lies.

You want to make the prophet the end all and be all of Islam, the origin of its message and morality for ulterior motives, not because you want to give him added status. You are a moralizing moron, with half a brain, who does not understand anything about Islam yet wants to invent things in order to discredit both Islam and the prophet.