Does Islam, in fact, Encourage Paedophilia?

Zeemax sahib:

This must be Farzana's worst iLog that I have read, even Arjun gave a bettter answer. All negatives of all relgions together cannot make one single postive. I never thought Farzana was into compartive religions.

cb/kaalchakra/anil: to add my two bits (and with reference to kaal's earlier reference to my faith being strong or something) - I agree that faith is by definition not based on demonstrable facts. But there is a method to this madness, as follows: :-)

"Faith" means assumptions regarding 1. certain "rules of thumb" to live by (commonly referred to as "morality"); and 2. what lies beyond our "circle of light".

1. is in fact the collective wisdom of humanity. "Honesty is the best policy" (a common tenet of faith in many religions) is in fact good, solid common sense. Toyota did not become the number 1 auto maker by being clever with its clients. Instead, it gave them good, honest value for their money. So, this aspect of faith is in fact perfectly rational and reasonable.

2. is in fact the perfectly rational assumption that what we know isnt everything there is to things. Indeed, the more we expand our knowledge, the greater our realization of how much more there is to know. There are dimensions beyond the four-dimensional perception we have. There are perfectly respectable theories in physics that see our four-dimensional view universe as being a hologram created by a knowledge source outside these four dimensions (a couple of years ago there was a front page article on this in the Scientific American). Granted it is a leap of faith that there is God - but no no less a leap of faith than that of the atheist who is sure there is no God. Except, the atheist thinks he is rational, while the believer acknowledges that this is faith.

Of course, this does not mean that there is anything to the garbage of pseudo-science (like the mullah "physicist" in Pakistan who claims to have determined the "speed of heaven", this being plain bs like most mullah stuff). Nor does this mean that religious books are the place to look for "signs" of the end of earth.

Faith and Science are in this sense complementary (the latter is what is inside our "circle of knowledge" at any time, the former what lies beyond. And "mullah science" is neither faith nor science, only bs.

End of speechee. :-)

Re: # 295

tahmed,

This is an attempt to obsfucate so as to run away from discussing facts?

Would it not be simple to say that you have faith so you believe and you dont care if the one you believe was a pedo?

#280 arjun: you dont need to go all the way to India to demonstrate your enlightenment. You have been doing a great job of demonstrating the enlightened products of Indian education on chowk.

dost mitter #260 I followed the link you provided to your earlier article on fetus killings. And true that there were Indians discussing the matter. But I noticed very few Pakistanis there - I read the first few posts from Pakistanis and they basically reflect what I have been saying (i.e. that Pakistanis dont jump to declare hinduism to be the cause of social ills in India the way some Indians do on chowk). By way of evidence, here are excerpts from the first few posts from Pakistanis which reflect what they are saying:

1. Zeemax #3 ...The answer lies in overall rural uplift, economic prosperity and, most importantly, education.

2. Mantolives #4 ...I hope this issue is brought to forefront and those perpetrators brought to justice.

3. Urstruly #12 ...I find it quite bizzare that Pakistanis generally hardly show any interest in Hindu specific issues, whereas, vice versa is not true.

4. Zeena #14 ...What is the root cause of female infanticide? ...Obviously, root cause is economic problems along with some social stigmas attached to it.

5. HP #27 ...I can deride Indians for this atrocity but India is still an extremely poor country and there may be compelling social issues that force certain sections of the population to practice female infanticide

I stopped there. In-between, there are posts from Indians that drag in Pakistan and Islam (including a lewd post from harimau address to Zeena).

Your article, one of the few addressing Indian issues on chowk, by and large attracted very few Pakistani posts, and those that were (at least until I stopped reading) did not use the opportunity to blame it on hinduism.

MiLord, I rest my case. :-)

#290 Cliftonbridge

"To force faith to coincide 100% with external logic is not possible and maybe not faith at all.."

Don't you think then logic will become your religion?

"...to use islam as a force of good..."

Problem is when any religion is used as a force beyond oneself, it is destructive, the good force is to keep this genie to oneself. OBL in his mind is also using religion for the good. Quite dangerous proposition.

Re: # 292

Tahmed,

I do not understand the logic of your arguments. Are you saying that because Pakistanis do not critize Indians so Indians should not critize Pakistanis huh? Why dont they?.....

I thought this article was about Mohammed's marriage with a 9 year old and logical or illogical conclusions drawn from that.

Islam is very much an Indian issue. There more followers of islam in India than in Pakistan.

*****
Excuse me, the first wife of the prophet was Khadijah and not Fatima, which is the name of his daughter
*****

Thanks. Sorry for the mistake. I din't have Ali Sina's book with me..

hmmmm...but Kaal, like you always say, faith is not based on pure logic. To force faith to coincide 100% with external logic is not possible and maybe not faith at all. I do however belive in critical thinking for the more out there parts of islamic history because humans are capable of complexity.
I dont think we have to reinvent the wheel and try to prove things that at this point we just cant (like the advanced age of hazrat Ayesha or otherwise)to use islam as a force of good.

Hamzaad you are being a tad impetuous to say the least. You also misunderstood the context and projected a need that i dont have (the need for other people to acknowledge that we arent all pedo's). Arjun is pretty special. He has stated many times that the point behind his interactions is to clarify to moderate hindus that moderate muslims are beyond dialogue or comprehension. Now i dont care for arjuns opinions (and many reasonable indians dont) but i do care about the concept of dialogue.
Dialogue is just a way for people to live in the same world with others who might be stupider smellier angrier pettier deformed or some other unpleasant attribute.

Sex and religion; why to mix up these two independent and sovereign entities, having their own set of laws. Sex, the life force, was there even when there was no religion, at least so called 'Mukammal Zaabitah-e-Hayyat' (Complete code of life) like Islam. In fact we will have to redefine religion if we want to judge it by extraneous moral values, especially by the prevalent sex culture.

Btw, what are the 'Ghilmaan' (boys who would remain as such) as promised in the Quran to be in service in the paradise for the faithful?

Finally I read the article. looks like the writer is trying a "defensive act" on defending the paedophilic actions of the "prophet and his followers". It sounds very weak.

I have another idea. Ali Sina claims in his latest book, Mohammad was actually impotent for the last 10+ years of his life. And he could just fondle and do nothing more. looks like there is a hadith narrated by Ayesha actually praising his self control. even though Mohammad had plenty of kids through his first wife Fatima, he could not father any through his teenaged wives acquired later in the last 10 years of his life.. The one through the coptic slave Marya was doubtful..

That would make a better defense.

Re: # 286

Excuse me, the first wife of the prophet was Khadijah and not Fatima, which is the name of his daughter.

clif,

when you need smelly injuns to acknowledge that 'merely following islam does not make you a pedo', and you thank them for this ecumenical gem.. its clear who the insecure one is.

Cliffs, I must share with you a paragraph. It's from al-razi, and simply lifted from wikipedia (so you know the extent of my own knowledge :))

It excemplifies the concept of "respect and disagree." That concept has been absolutely critical to us Indians, and may be useful to others as well. Certainly, the idea isn't just Indian and Iranian, although, to be fair, people may also reject this appraoch.

-----------------

"I prayed to God to direct and lead me to the truth in writing this book. It grieves me to oppose and criticize the man Galen from whose sea of knowledge I have drawn much. Indeed, he is the Master and I am the disciple. Although this reverence and appreciation will and should not prevent me from doubting, as I did, what is erroneous in his theories. I imagine and feel deeply in my heart that Galen has chosen me to undertake this task, and if he were alive, he would have congratulated me on what I am doing. I say this because Galen's aim was to seek and find the truth and bring light out of darkness. I wish indeed he were alive to read what I have published."

Jangs overwhelming respect puts criticism off the table...but critical thinking is still allowed. I dont agree that disrespecting any prophet is the first step or even a necessary step to reformation.