Does Islam, in fact, Encourage Paedophilia?

re. Urstruly #76:
"I do not see any difference between what I assert and the excerpts from the website that that you have posted. I do recognize that 50% or more of the sex is mental."

That's funny, coz I could've sworn you said that women past menopause get frigid and are therefore also less attractive, which makes it reasonable for their husbands to then seek to have children with other women.

I wonder why you need a biological justification to endorse polygyny anyways. The Mormons seem happy enough with their "extended" family set-up. But if you're going to suggest biological (natural) and sociological (halal) justifications, you need to defend them better. You still haven't addressed the question of how polygyny could succeed with parity in male/female ratio.

You also write:
"But the point we are discussing here is the biological and sexual affinity that older middle aged men (and I must stress that by men I mean ALL MEN ) feel towards younger and specially pubescent girls."

but fail to explain why older middle aged men, or indeed ALL men, should be particularly attracted, even at a primal level, to pubescent girls. Pubescent girls are not exactly the hottest property, pardon the pun, in terms of fertility. The safest age for childbirth begins well AFTER
puberty.

Re: # 80

so, you prefer that people discuss on false pretenses rather then on actual facts?

so, what you are saying is that we have a bunch of ignorant backward 'progressives' here who simply love to gossip on the bases of false hood?

wow, that makes it even more easy to indicate that 'They' have not validity.

-Jamil =p

Jamil,
Take everything kaalchakra says with a pinch of salt-- or irony.
I will visit the websites you cited later. Thanks for the links.

jamil209, most of your 'opponents' are unwilling or unable to commit as much time as PM is :)

They want your arguments alone. To be fair to them, they have a very good reason. Anybody can, with little effort, list umpteen books and videos, and then peremptorily announce your own views totally invalid unless you go through those books and videos first. As you can see, that is as much a way to completely short-circuit reason as to advance it.

Altenratively, use the knowledge you have gained by watching those videos. Share what you learnt in those videos. Show others why their beliefs are false.

Unfortunately, the task of "educating" our opponents falls on us alone. We can't wait for them to educate themselves first.

Does any of that sound reasonable to you (since you have obviously learnt a lot, it will be sad to see that knowledge not being used adequately here.)?

Re: # 78

Dost,

You are an idiot. Here is the issue..

'it was not uncommon for powerful men to have much younger wives'

Is it common to follow the example of a powerful man who has sex with much younger woman? We can thank him for the revelations (let's say that they were indeed geniune cmmunications from the creator of the universe) about pork and alcohol BUT SHOULD WE FOLLOW THIS MAN AS A PERFECT EXAMPLE.

'It was the Arab custom that if you called someone your brother, you did not marry his daughter. And I remember reading that Aisha's father initially objected to the Prophet's proposal on this ground. The Prophet was however able to convince him that they were only brothers-in-islam and therefor there was nothing wrong in this proposal.'

Think about this: it is a universal tradition not to marry the daughter of a man who came out from the same womb as you. Why is that? It's just a common understanding.. nothing sacred about it. Uncles and neices can have sex and raise good children. But then there is this tradition..

Same way, if you have this tradition of assigining random men as brothers so that you that their daughters can play in front of you and your daughters can play in front of them without fear of being ogled/fondled.. and your 'brother' in such a way never utters intentions to marry your daughter because of this brother tradition.. THEN YOU GO ON DISREGARDING YOUR DREAMS ABOUT MARRYING THE GIRL YOU HAVE SWORN NOT TO TOUCH.

Again, nothing wrong with fucking your neice or mother or sister.. all silly traditions, but future generations tend get confused about whether to follow the main man from Allah or not.

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Brother Jamil,

Please fix the website. Either your link is not working or all the injuns have hacked the website. Please post the link repeatedly here.

Also if this is an audio, please trancribe it since Allah made kaka mute and He is the most Hearing One.

wassalaam

HP Sain,

Looks like you felt a little offended by this pedo-philia stuff. Dont worry yar, its really about tree-hugging ;-) and not about arabs looking for unripe-dates or their love of palms.

Re. child-marriage in india, sure, it has been a custom, but there is a concept of bidai (gauna ceremony in UP e.g.). In short, a marriage is done for children but the bride goes to boys house once she is mature with much festivities..so consumation of marriage happens much later. Apparently there are folks studying this shyte..and find that although rural folks are marrying later, they are still having children at similar age as before..go figure.

http://medind.nic.in/imvw/imvw20873.html

"ABSTRACT: Fertility patterns of a community depend upon several factors. Strict enforcement of legislation is amongst its important determinants. The Government proposes to enact a deterrent law, which will replace the loophole- ridden Child Marriage Restraint Act of 1978. In India, there exists a long established custom to enter into effective marriage several years after marriage. This is called 'gauna'. Studying the various marriage cohorts by decades, the present communication comments on the age at marriage, age at gauna and age at first child birth amongst 843 rural women in Delhi. The study shows that over the last six decades, there has been a gradual rise of age at marriage from 10.5 years to 16.5 years. However, this slope is less steep with age at gauna and almost non-existent for age at first child birth. This in turn has narrowed the gap between age at gauna and age at first child birth. Age at first child birth has remained more or less constant at 19-20 years. This finding, if corroborated elsewhere also, may be of great significance and raise questions on the validity of the current strategy of increasing marriage age to 18 years in order to reduce fertility. "

I realise this subject is touchy and controversial but it is, imho, better to openly discuss the issue of 'what is paedophilia?' and 'Adult-teenage' relationshiops than to brush it under the carpet and pretend it doesn't exist.

This issue is not unique to Muslims by any means and was in fact a universal phenomenon until the 20th century where it became taboo (but still carried on regardless.)

I deliberately chose to frame the question in an islamic context because I knew it would bring more responders since this is an issue Muslims are commonly beaten with over the head by so-called progressives until they realise that their own history is peppered with similar examples.

As I said, for example, most Christian scholars put the age of Bibi Maryam when she had Hazrat Isa (Jesus) as 12.

The argument, 'Just because things happened in the past it doesn't mean it should still be allowed to happen now' is a good one and one we should discuss.

In a secular democratic liberal society, supposedly the laws are made to fit the society which is why laws are always being changed. Thus, given that (a) we live in an age which fetishises Youth and (b) teenagers are having sex earlier and earlier, does it still make sense to set the age of consent at 16 and thus unjustly condemn millions of perfectly healthy people as paedophiles?

Also, from the point of view of individual human rights, what gives a govt. the right to tell a person when they are old enough to have sex?

Ok, here is the link again:

http://www.hearislam.com/index.php?action=showpic&cat=4&pic=22 1

for some reason, earlier the link was cut off.

as i've mentioned previously you can simply go to www.hearislam.com and do a search for aisha

- as for others:
we only believe that the Quran and authentic Hadith are true. other 'UMPTEEN' books have no value if they contradict with above.

Islam is not like other religions, where every era has its own explanation of controversies. You have original resources and the life of the Prophet and his wife Aisha which was recorded 24hours a day when he was alive.

show me one person other then the holy prophet who would like their entire life 24hours monitored and recorded for future generations and still come out without contradictions and immorality. SHOW ME!

for those who compare current cultures with cultures of past or far away are the most stupid "intellects" here.

the link above, in proper ENGLISH (Texan English to be exact), will show you the following, in brief:

- the source of information as to how old aisha (pbuh) was.
- what marriage is, is it only about sex?
- how did the prophet and who did the prophet propose to?
- was consent of marriage present?
- aisha never had any children, hmmm did she really have sex with the prophet?, actually yes but again for you to ponder.

- and the MIND SET OF UGLY MINDED PEOPLE who have an agenda and their own preconceptions.

- instead of reading a half an hour reply why don't you guys simply listen to about 10min of audio... is it really that hard... are you really that lazy that you have to be spoon fed information? well the hearing should be easy then right?

oh, and btw, from what i have read here , NONE OF YOU ARE QUALIFIED TO EXPLAIN AND NONE OF YOU SEEM TO KNOW JACK ABOUT ISLAM.

again, all i read is a bunch of chickens in a den making nonsense noise that is deafening but no value.

THE WEBSITE IS NOT MINE NOR IS IT FOR LINKING OR OTHER PURPOSE ITS FOR INFORMATION ONLY.

go ahead. come on guys make my day.

i will be as juvenile as you stupid statements demand.

Jamil =p

Re: # 90
why is the link being cut off agian.

ok,

again:
http://www.hearislam.com/index.php?action=showpic&cat=4&pic=221

but if you see a space between the last 3 numbers then remove the space and the last # should be 221

-Jamil

re: majmil209 # 90

See mjamil, that wasn't so hard. Now everyone knows your views and your arguments very clearly.

Brother Jamil,

Please give the link where kaka can READ as opposed to HEAR since kaka was born mute and deaf.

kaka has recruited the help of lafangi to help understand what is going on in the link and she tells kaka that the middle eastern preacher on the audio farted in the middle of the sermon!

kaka can't really trust lafangi on this. Please provide the transcription for the deaf and mute.

wassalaam

no, wasn't hard at all but now i know who i am dealing with, a bunch of chickens waiting to lay another egg filled with cr_p.

i remember peeps like that back home... peeps who used to argue for the sake of argument and the fact that they spoke English and seemed intellectuals. hahaha how naive.

hey, guys the British have left, Masta's have gone... you don't have to lick anyones boots anymore.

as for the negative thinking indians where, i really don't blame you, your stuck in a place where drinking/showering in/sprinkling cow pee and rat infested milk is a norm.

you guys are really trying to break away from the culture but really, you don't have to do it by bashing others beliefs...aww, come on now i really didn't mean to offend.

this Karishna person is really a victim of Freudianism. Ugly much?

Re: # 93



first of all the 'preacher' is a former WHITE TEXAN CHRISTIAN PREACHER and not middle eastern. "oh ho, did i burst your bubble?"

secondly, no my job.

very funny tho. you guys really show your colors.

hamzad:

"Is it common to follow the example of a powerful man who has sex with much younger woman?"

I neither said nor implied that. I was merely viewing this issue from a Kaafiraana perspective. And that perspective is that values and ethics vary with time and place. Where I come from and before the "kanjroons" took over, people disapproved any girl without a dupatta on her head but had no problem with a Memsahib walking around in a skirt, because the two were measured with different yardsticks. In this vein, I was simply arguing that while criticism of Mohammad (the man, not the Prophet) on the grounds that he married a much younger girl is not valid, that of marrying the daughter of "moonh-bola" brother holds more water.

P.S: You didn't have to use a different nick to use the term of endearment;)

'Idiot'