Dilawar Syed July 20, 2007
#34 Posted by HP on July 21, 2007 11:59:40 am
The euphoria is understandable. This is perhaps the first ‘victory’ Pakistani civilian society has had against the military in a long- long while. (The last being in 1971.)
However, things are never simple and straightforward in Pakistan. The army controls the society and has an iron grip over the state affairs. The CJ does not have a history of being a principled Justice and clearly some of his shenanigans that have come to fore, reflect that. He understands the power game in Pakistan much better than many of his former colleagues that perished after disagreeing with the army.
I am not sure if he is the person who would usher in an era of judicial independence in Pakistan. His notion of independence may be just grabbing more power by harassing and threatening the administration for his own or for his colleagues’ ambitions.
There will soon be a civilian government in Pakistan but as someone mentioned, that may just be a stop-gap arrangement. Imo, the new Supreme Court will become another power broker that a civilian government will have to deal with. The civilian governments after the 80s have constantly faced harassment from the army and had to look over their shoulders for every decision. Many of the civilian governments’ decisions were overridden or shot down by the army regularly. The bitterness against the army displayed by an army protégé like Nawaz Sharif shows the humiliation that he must have gone through when he was the PM. We know that Benazir used to cry in cabinet meetings when her appointed President and cabinet members refused to listen or sometimes ridiculed her because they knew she had no powers.
Generals regularly refused to visit the PM house for meetings and often forced the PMs to come to the COAS office for discussions or met at neutral offices. There were deep differences between Mush and Nawaz and Mush avoided saluting the PM on many occasions.
Now the civilians will have an activist Supreme Court and a CJ who would always threaten to override the civilian government in the apex court adding more hurdles in the way of a successful civilian government in Pakistan. And who is to say that the same judges will not collide with the army behind the scenes to keep the civilian governments in control.
The duty of an independent judiciary is to make sure that governments follow the law but when a judiciary attempts to interfere in the day to day running of the government, that judiciary will become a menace to the society and eventually will play in the hands of the non democratic forces. The current CJ who is short on judicial experience and is known sycophantic is bad news for the future of civilian set ups in Pakistan.
Pakistan does not have any system of checks and balances that mean whosoever gains the upper hand in the bare knuckle palatial fights in Islamabad will rule the roost.
This is a victory because most of the support cast fails to see the real actors of this game of oneupmanship.
Creating another power block in countries like Pakistan is fraught with many dangers.
#33 Posted by bulleya on July 21, 2007 11:01:49 am
dost-mittar #19: "Musharraf too is probably not too unhappy with the decision. He has no doubt realised that sacking the CJ was a mistake, which had to be corrected."
......musharraf and the rest of the army is probably in a state of shock, by what has happened......you need to understand the mindse of the coas in pakistan....
......the pakistani military, like all militaries, has a full-fledged judiciary internal to the military with its equivalent of a chief justice (JAG)....however, this whole judicial system is under the coas.....even though it is supposed to be independent.......hence to a coas, a judge is nothing much.....perhaps a colonel or brigadier, he can throw around......this is why the army always treats judges with contempt......
.......the judges never had the balls to stand up to the army....i am not sure why......this time, around, two things were different.....one the lawyers stuck together and two the media brought everything to the public......
musharraf and his corps commanders are in uncharted waters.....things have gone totally against standard procedures of a coup......rest assured they are not happy....
.......this could set into motin a series of steps that could result, theoretically, in musharraf getting hanged....a case is in the supreme court, already, against musharraf getting re-elected....it is an open and shut case.....then there will be one against his uniform......open and shut......he is nothing, politically, without his uniform........at which point, there may be one of treason against him, against the coup......again open and shut.......the punishment for a coup is death....
the reason no one ever got the death penalty is that every coup maker before he takes off his uniform gets the assembly to officially declare all his actions legal......that is also standard procedure of a coup......the judiciary is already intimidated and doesn't speak....
now musharraf is stuck......totally dependent on benazir.....if she works with him, he can get an amendment passed, forgiving his coup sins.......in return he forgives her corruption sins.......
.......if she doesn't work with him, musharraf can neither get re-elected, nor keep his uniform, nor fight a legal battle against his coup......
it will be interesting to see what the cj does now......he is, at the moment, hands down the most powerful man in the country.......not only does he have legal power (which he is supposed to have).......the political parties are all behind him (when was the last time they were all behind him)......and literally every pakistani (other than musharraf and ahmedmadani) are behind him........
i wonder if the cj will allow musharraf to drop the corruption cases against bb.......they were in nab courts and nab comes under a serving lt. gen!.....amazing but true.....however the cj could re-start them.......
totally uncharted waters for pakistan and the army.....
i am quite sure the corps commanders are meeting, desparately, to figure out what to do.......this decision has gone against the script, they were taught in military academies.....
musharraf totally underestimated the status of chief justice, within the civil society.......
......musharraf and the rest of the army is probably in a state of shock, by what has happened......you need to understand the mindse of the coas in pakistan....
......the pakistani military, like all militaries, has a full-fledged judiciary internal to the military with its equivalent of a chief justice (JAG)....however, this whole judicial system is under the coas.....even though it is supposed to be independent.......hence to a coas, a judge is nothing much.....perhaps a colonel or brigadier, he can throw around......this is why the army always treats judges with contempt......
.......the judges never had the balls to stand up to the army....i am not sure why......this time, around, two things were different.....one the lawyers stuck together and two the media brought everything to the public......
musharraf and his corps commanders are in uncharted waters.....things have gone totally against standard procedures of a coup......rest assured they are not happy....
.......this could set into motin a series of steps that could result, theoretically, in musharraf getting hanged....a case is in the supreme court, already, against musharraf getting re-elected....it is an open and shut case.....then there will be one against his uniform......open and shut......he is nothing, politically, without his uniform........at which point, there may be one of treason against him, against the coup......again open and shut.......the punishment for a coup is death....
the reason no one ever got the death penalty is that every coup maker before he takes off his uniform gets the assembly to officially declare all his actions legal......that is also standard procedure of a coup......the judiciary is already intimidated and doesn't speak....
now musharraf is stuck......totally dependent on benazir.....if she works with him, he can get an amendment passed, forgiving his coup sins.......in return he forgives her corruption sins.......
.......if she doesn't work with him, musharraf can neither get re-elected, nor keep his uniform, nor fight a legal battle against his coup......
it will be interesting to see what the cj does now......he is, at the moment, hands down the most powerful man in the country.......not only does he have legal power (which he is supposed to have).......the political parties are all behind him (when was the last time they were all behind him)......and literally every pakistani (other than musharraf and ahmedmadani) are behind him........
i wonder if the cj will allow musharraf to drop the corruption cases against bb.......they were in nab courts and nab comes under a serving lt. gen!.....amazing but true.....however the cj could re-start them.......
totally uncharted waters for pakistan and the army.....
i am quite sure the corps commanders are meeting, desparately, to figure out what to do.......this decision has gone against the script, they were taught in military academies.....
musharraf totally underestimated the status of chief justice, within the civil society.......
#32 Posted by bulleya on July 21, 2007 10:50:09 am
hamidm2 mian#: "with the federal sharia court, the council for islamic ideology and the special terrorism courts in place it is not really clear - at least to me - how much weight the cj actually carries inspite of his fine moustache ......"
....all courts in pakistan are under the supreme court.....the federal shariah court just checks if laws are inline with islam.....appeals against its decisions to go to a bench of the supreme court.....it cannot do anything to the cj....council of islamic ideology is not a court.....i don't think there are any special terrorism courts operating now......only nab courts.....both these courts are two levels below the supreme court....i.e. one level below the high court.....
the chief justice sits above all of these courts......
rest assured if the chief of army staff has had to back down, then i doubt anyone else will be able to touch the cj or touch the supreme court.....the shariah courts and the councils of ideologies and nabs etc. are all created by the coas.......
....all courts in pakistan are under the supreme court.....the federal shariah court just checks if laws are inline with islam.....appeals against its decisions to go to a bench of the supreme court.....it cannot do anything to the cj....council of islamic ideology is not a court.....i don't think there are any special terrorism courts operating now......only nab courts.....both these courts are two levels below the supreme court....i.e. one level below the high court.....
the chief justice sits above all of these courts......
rest assured if the chief of army staff has had to back down, then i doubt anyone else will be able to touch the cj or touch the supreme court.....the shariah courts and the councils of ideologies and nabs etc. are all created by the coas.......
#31 Posted by aquaris on July 21, 2007 10:29:44 am
Re: # 25
This CJ Issue was the rallying point, the only rallying point , where most of the politial parties were in agreement.
... on the Karachi Massacres, and Jamia Hafsa , the two OTHER current HOT issues , there is all but lip service.
Musharraf was under increasing pressure , from all around, since this CJ Issue, One after One, event were mounting pressure on him.
One this CJ issue has reached its logical conclusion, and Musharraf , conceding defeat..... it has taken the STEAM off...
...the Pro Musharraff and anti-Musharraff forces, that were at logger heads now, do not have any other battle grounds Now....
except the 'Uniform Issue '
....and with conceding defeat of this CJ front, Musharraff is now out of pressure, at least for the time being.
This CJ Issue was the rallying point, the only rallying point , where most of the politial parties were in agreement.
... on the Karachi Massacres, and Jamia Hafsa , the two OTHER current HOT issues , there is all but lip service.
Musharraf was under increasing pressure , from all around, since this CJ Issue, One after One, event were mounting pressure on him.
One this CJ issue has reached its logical conclusion, and Musharraf , conceding defeat..... it has taken the STEAM off...
...the Pro Musharraff and anti-Musharraff forces, that were at logger heads now, do not have any other battle grounds Now....
except the 'Uniform Issue '
....and with conceding defeat of this CJ front, Musharraff is now out of pressure, at least for the time being.
#30 Posted by hamidm2 on July 21, 2007 10:20:08 am
tahmed,
.... sorry, i didn't quite say why this might be a phyrric victory ...
...... i think the mullahs, who have jumped on the cj's bandwagon, will gain the most from this 'victory' .... while the rest of the politicians squabble over what to do next, the mullahs will throw the rotten carcasses from the lal masjid and other fresh bodies from the daily suicide bommbings on to this bandwagon and run off with it ...... liaqat baloch was the only politician on join in the clebrations, and fazloo and qazi hussain ahmed were on the talk show circuit claiming it to be a victory for allah and his dead virgins .......
....... in any case, there is no reason not to celebrate - it is step in the right direction even though the future is still quite uncertain .........
#29 Posted by TahirQazi on July 21, 2007 10:18:31 am
Re: Post 24
Dear tahmed32:
I agree that change is not a sudden event it is a process that take time. Lets hope things will change and wait to see what survives the test of time. Good talking to you. Thanks a lot.
Regards.
Dear tahmed32:
I agree that change is not a sudden event it is a process that take time. Lets hope things will change and wait to see what survives the test of time. Good talking to you. Thanks a lot.
Regards.
#28 Posted by tahmed32 on July 21, 2007 10:10:10 am
Re: # 27 hamid braader: please dont use the word "pyrrhic" inappropriately. While 42 lives were lost on May 12 on the road to this Verdict, the term pyrrhic implies bloodshed at a much larger scale.
Perhaps you meant "ephemeral"?? (which you are permitted to do if you enjoy being pessimistic).
Perhaps you meant "ephemeral"?? (which you are permitted to do if you enjoy being pessimistic).
#27 Posted by hamidm2 on July 21, 2007 10:05:00 am
tahmed mian,
....... i never said that this is not a good thing but that it might be a phyrric victory
#24 Posted by tahmed32 on July 21, 2007 9:54:57 am
Tahir Qazi #18 (Please ignore my response #22 and #23 which I messed up, and replace it with this post)
Your post #18 implies the following sequence of cause and effect:
Verdict LEADS TO Socio-Economic Change LEADS TO Institutional Change.
The proper sequence in my view is as follows:
Socio-Economic Change LEADS TO Institutional Change.
And the Verdict itself is the first and most fundamental institutional change (i.e. the all important change in Governance) that has already taken place. And the mere fact that even this verdict would not have meant anything without the outpouring of popular support for the Chief Justice, indicates that the Socio-Economic milieu (reflecting a large middle class, an increasingly pluralistic society, a population used to earning its living through honest work and possessing many admirable qualities like hospitality, no real problems of alcoholism that afflict many troubled societies like Russia or many third world countries like Mexico as I have seen first hand) of Pakistan is in fact much healthier than many people give it credit.
No longer can Musharraf hope to issue orders at will without being challenged by a constitutional co-equal body that has the additional strength of legitimacy and political support from the people !!
The question therefore is: Will this change prove lasting? there is every reason to hope that it will. And if it does, then this will prove to be Pakistan's equivalent of the Glorious Revolution of 1688 in England (when the autocrat was forced to accept the Bill of Rights, thus paving the way for UK to become a society ruled by laws rather than by autocrats).
It is now universally recognized that a proper Governance framework is key to further institutional development. So, if this verdict proves lasting, there is indeed reason to celebrate. Even if it takes many more years before the ill effects of dictatorships (religious extremism, dysfunctional ordinances, political uncertainty) as well as the on-going task of modernizing the public sector.
Your post #18 implies the following sequence of cause and effect:
Verdict LEADS TO Socio-Economic Change LEADS TO Institutional Change.
The proper sequence in my view is as follows:
Socio-Economic Change LEADS TO Institutional Change.
And the Verdict itself is the first and most fundamental institutional change (i.e. the all important change in Governance) that has already taken place. And the mere fact that even this verdict would not have meant anything without the outpouring of popular support for the Chief Justice, indicates that the Socio-Economic milieu (reflecting a large middle class, an increasingly pluralistic society, a population used to earning its living through honest work and possessing many admirable qualities like hospitality, no real problems of alcoholism that afflict many troubled societies like Russia or many third world countries like Mexico as I have seen first hand) of Pakistan is in fact much healthier than many people give it credit.
No longer can Musharraf hope to issue orders at will without being challenged by a constitutional co-equal body that has the additional strength of legitimacy and political support from the people !!
The question therefore is: Will this change prove lasting? there is every reason to hope that it will. And if it does, then this will prove to be Pakistan's equivalent of the Glorious Revolution of 1688 in England (when the autocrat was forced to accept the Bill of Rights, thus paving the way for UK to become a society ruled by laws rather than by autocrats).
It is now universally recognized that a proper Governance framework is key to further institutional development. So, if this verdict proves lasting, there is indeed reason to celebrate. Even if it takes many more years before the ill effects of dictatorships (religious extremism, dysfunctional ordinances, political uncertainty) as well as the on-going task of modernizing the public sector.
#23 Posted by tahmed32 on July 21, 2007 9:47:13 am
Institutional Change, with the Verdict itself the first and most fundamental institutional change (i.e. the all important change in Governance) that has already taken place.
No longer can Musharraf hope to issue orders at will without being challenged by a constitutional co-equal body that has the additional strength of legitimacy and political support from the people !!
The question therefore is: Will this change prove lasting? there is every reason to hope that it will. And if it does, then this will prove to be Pakistan's equivalent of the Glorious Revolution of 1688 in England (when the autocrat was forced to accept the Bill of Rights, thus paving the way for UK to become a society ruled by laws rather than by autocrats).
It is now universally recognized that a proper Governance framework is key to further institutional development. So, if this verdict proves lasting, there is indeed reason to celebrate. Even if it takes many more years before the ill effects of dictatorships (religious extremism, dysfunctional ordinances, political uncertainty) as well as the on-going task of modernizing the public sector.
No longer can Musharraf hope to issue orders at will without being challenged by a constitutional co-equal body that has the additional strength of legitimacy and political support from the people !!
The question therefore is: Will this change prove lasting? there is every reason to hope that it will. And if it does, then this will prove to be Pakistan's equivalent of the Glorious Revolution of 1688 in England (when the autocrat was forced to accept the Bill of Rights, thus paving the way for UK to become a society ruled by laws rather than by autocrats).
It is now universally recognized that a proper Governance framework is key to further institutional development. So, if this verdict proves lasting, there is indeed reason to celebrate. Even if it takes many more years before the ill effects of dictatorships (religious extremism, dysfunctional ordinances, political uncertainty) as well as the on-going task of modernizing the public sector.
#22 Posted by tahmed32 on July 21, 2007 9:41:08 am
institutional changes, with the verdict itself being the first and most fundamental institutional change (i.e. the all important change in Governance) that has already taken place.
No longer can Musharraf hope to issue orders at will without being challenged by a constitutional co-equal body that has the additional strength of legitimacy and political support from the people !!
The question therefore is: Will this change prove lasting? there is every reason to hope that it will. And if it does, then this will prove to be Pakistan's equivalent of the Glorious Revolution of 1688 in England (when the autocrat was forced to accept the Bill of Rights, thus paving the way for UK to become a society ruled by laws rather than by autocrats).
It is now universally recognized that a proper Governance framework is key to further institutional development. So, if this verdict proves lasting, there is indeed reason to celebrate. Even if it takes many more years before the ill effects of dictatorships (religious extremism, dysfunctional ordinances, political uncertainty) as well as the on-going task of modernizing the public sector.
No longer can Musharraf hope to issue orders at will without being challenged by a constitutional co-equal body that has the additional strength of legitimacy and political support from the people !!
The question therefore is: Will this change prove lasting? there is every reason to hope that it will. And if it does, then this will prove to be Pakistan's equivalent of the Glorious Revolution of 1688 in England (when the autocrat was forced to accept the Bill of Rights, thus paving the way for UK to become a society ruled by laws rather than by autocrats).
It is now universally recognized that a proper Governance framework is key to further institutional development. So, if this verdict proves lasting, there is indeed reason to celebrate. Even if it takes many more years before the ill effects of dictatorships (religious extremism, dysfunctional ordinances, political uncertainty) as well as the on-going task of modernizing the public sector.
#21 Posted by aquaris on July 21, 2007 9:23:19 am
ERRR.....
it has given MUSHARRAF the much needed breathing space, in which he can re-collect his forces.
as inspite of the VICTORY, people have lost a much needed rallying point.
#20 Posted by jang on July 21, 2007 8:35:58 am
IMO real change will be brought by the mulla. the "civil" society is too entreched in the corruption to undergo any real change.
#19 Posted by dost_mittar on July 21, 2007 8:22:41 am
All the celebrations and congratulations are justified. This is indeed the first time in Pakistan's history that the judiciary has passed a judgement effectively against the highest authority in the country, and that too a military dictator. So, what's next?
1. The civil society has tasted blood and it is not going to stay quiet now. If Musharraf insists upon getting elected by the Assembly before dissolution or insists upon wearing the uniform, someone is bound to raise the issue in the Court.
2. Musharraf too is probably not too unhappy with the decision. He has no doubt realised that sacking the CJ was a mistake, which had to be corrected. The way in which the govt. withdrew the most serious charges against the CJ even before the court decided shows that it was pretty much prepared for this outcome.
3. Musharraf is probably now putting most, if not all, of his eggs in the Benazir basket. The word on the street is that she has agreed to his remaining President, whether before or after the elections.
So, this phase of military rule is over. But does it mean an end to the cycles of army rule followed by civilians followed by army and so on? I am not so sure. I think that nothing happens in Pakistan without the acquiescence of the public opinion led by the civilian elite. The Court was able to take the decision it did because the successful lawyers' rallies had demonstrated that the army had lost its support. But if the politicians muck up again and another knight in shining arm emerges in the next round, will the court not again comply with the "doctrine of necessity"? Only time will tell!
1. The civil society has tasted blood and it is not going to stay quiet now. If Musharraf insists upon getting elected by the Assembly before dissolution or insists upon wearing the uniform, someone is bound to raise the issue in the Court.
2. Musharraf too is probably not too unhappy with the decision. He has no doubt realised that sacking the CJ was a mistake, which had to be corrected. The way in which the govt. withdrew the most serious charges against the CJ even before the court decided shows that it was pretty much prepared for this outcome.
3. Musharraf is probably now putting most, if not all, of his eggs in the Benazir basket. The word on the street is that she has agreed to his remaining President, whether before or after the elections.
So, this phase of military rule is over. But does it mean an end to the cycles of army rule followed by civilians followed by army and so on? I am not so sure. I think that nothing happens in Pakistan without the acquiescence of the public opinion led by the civilian elite. The Court was able to take the decision it did because the successful lawyers' rallies had demonstrated that the army had lost its support. But if the politicians muck up again and another knight in shining arm emerges in the next round, will the court not again comply with the "doctrine of necessity"? Only time will tell!
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