An Empowering Verdict!

Empowering new

reproduced by yasser latif hamdani, newyork, USA

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From newyork times.

The testing Hasif 4 cruise missile by pakistan is of concern to the plans of attacking targets in waziristan, a pentagon spokes man said today. The military balance between Nato forces in afghanistan against the pak forces is being reviewed. Patriot anti missile batteries from Israel and Korea are being shifted to afghan borders. The B52s in Deigo Gracia are being moved to bomb shelters.

President has ordered that there will be no more talk of independant action by the US forces. The awesome capability of the pak missiles has permanently altered the force balance globally, and the US will here after seek to work cooperatively with pakistan.
In the middle east peace process, the quartet has been expanded to pentlets to accommodate pakistan.

Very very empowering

Letter from yasser latif hamdani, New york, USA.

I feel very jealous of the people of pakistan, and how empowered they will be feeling. More than ever before, I regret the day when I took a flight to USA for higher studies, fifteen years ago and never returned. How happy I would have been, if I were not to catch that flight, if the US had not given me a student visa.

In pakistan people have elected the president, he sacked a CJ, and a few judges, in fact 7 of them, never elected, but told the president that he was wrong, told the elected representative of the people that he cannot sack one person.

The elected representative of the people have been over ruled, and that is really empowering news for the people of pakistan.

Their elected representative does not count, he is nobody, and that is very empowering for the pakistanis.

You are a very lucky lot.

I still regret that I cannot be part of this joyous moment, it is all due to the US student visa. US murdabad.

I feel empowered

A letter from Asma begum Ghazi of Waziristan, pakistan.

Thank you for posting this letter. I have moved out of my home in pakistan with my 3 children, all less than 5 years old, as the pak army has started attacking the village with helicopter gunships. I am a refugee in my own country due to the actions of my own elected government. My brother was killed last year, but my husband was a suicide bember. Now I have no one to support as my husband said talak, talak, talak before he went to buy some food and he did not return.

I am very happy that CJ is back in his seat, I feel very very empowered as I am looking for a -place to sleep, as the sun is about to set.

It is such an empowering feeling.

Empowering whom,

All of the educated pakistanis are talking about an irrelevant decision of the supreme court and declaring it as an empowerment of the people.

The only way people can be empowered is when the laws of the country are being enforced and there are no discriminatory laws. What is the case of pakistan, hundreds of non-muslims are sent to prison for blasphemy laws to force them to convert to islam, then talk to the ahmadias.

In pakistan, the social system is un-just, there is no law and order and hence people are making and enforcing their own laws.

How else will you explain the following item from jang of today.
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Sakhakot boasts of one-stop roadside stalls, an "Arms Bazaar" having weapons on display ranging from AK-47s to anti-aircraft machine guns, as well as grenades, landmines, explosives of all kind, etc, and at very competitive prices. One can also place orders in this "Arms R Us", with fairly short delivery time, and at your doorstep anywhere in Pakistan. So much for law enforcement, primarily a subject of the provincial government! One can understand the frustration of the US at our ineptitude, or as they maintain, why are we choosing to be blind?

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Why are the educated of pakistan, the ylh and tahmeds choosing to be blind, why are the english language pak papers talking about a great empowering moment for pakistan.

It is a white washing attempt, the time for it is over. islamic jihadic military state has to be administered euthenasia.

In order to read "Jotay Khawaab" by Nazir Naji please copy and paste following link in the address bar of your computer:

http://www.jang.com.pk/jang/jul2007-daily/22-07-2007/col1.htm

Article of Nazir Naji "jotay khawaab"

http://www.jang.com.pk/jang/jul2007-daily/22-07-2007/editorial/ col1.gif

Was this an empowering verdict or a disempowering verdict?

The danger from the CJ side is that in order to present himself as extra-unbiased and evenhanded and strict constitutionalist -- the CJ will exclude himself from any case involving Musharraf -- a glimpse of that one saw when the CJ refused to see that poor Pirzada fellow anywhere in or near his court -- pleading for anybody.

Musharraf may be counting on that the CJ will exclude himself from anything and everything La Musharraf. That may explain Musharraf's "graciousness" in accepting the verdict with "dignity and respect".

Musharraf may actually be chortling under the shower that he may have succeeded in disempowering the re-empowered Chief Justice through his wretched reference after all .

"And who is to say that the same judges will not collide with the army behind the scenes to keep the civilian governments in control."(HP)

I hope the same judges will collide with the army behind the scene as they did in front of the scene -- not collude with them either behind or in front.....:)

an open letter to the Chief-Justice


an aopen letter to chief-justice

An open letter yo Chief Justice Iftikhar Chaudhri

hamidm ji
Hum kaale haiN tou kya hua dilwaale haiN.
Hum (Horrible Hindus) tere chaahne waale haiN
Regards

zeemax #165: Naivete my friend is not a sin if you are an infant. However, for anyone older than 5 years of age, naivete is indeed a sin. Since it means you are not using the one thing you have that every ape, every urang utang, every chimpanzee, does not have: namely a brain. What distinguishes man from animal.

I am glad to note though that calling for the rule of law is not naivete. It is a very smart thing to call for. It is those who dont use their brains and think they are being clever by getting into positions of power by hook or by crook who are naive. In this sense, every dictator, every maulvi, every politician trying to wheel and deal his way into power is naive. The CJ calls for the rule of law, and he is the only smart one among the lot. Because he has done more for Pakistan than any individual I can think of. And thus, regardless of the outcome, he will have the greatest satisfaction of all: knowing he did the right thing when he stood up to the militar generals. May God protect this Greatest Pakistani.

#163 Posted by tahmed32,

I appreciate your rejoicing for victory of rule of law, but unfortunately it may be a deal. We'll only know once the full text of the judgment is released.

It would be a perfect solution if CJ is restored but not allowed to sit on the bench in cases against Musharraf - and the 'full' bench, basking in its glory of the moment -decides it is OK for Musharraf to wear two hats at the same time as well as to get elected by an outgoing Parliament.

But,naivety is no sin.

#162
A july20 post gets posted today...jazakallah! Maybe someone among CHWOKSTAFF has a heart.

zeemax Re: # 161 The CJ wasnt sitting on the bench when the Supreme Court delivered the stinging rebuke to Musharraf (not just rejected all charges, but termed the action by Musharraf to be illegal!).

So, the CJ does not need to sit on the bench for future court cases against Mush to be decided in a lawful and just manner.

http://www.express.com.pk/images/NP_LHE/20070721/Sub_Images/1100228101-1.jpg

While restoration of CJ is good news for a change, the real implications of this will only be known once the full text of the judgment is released. For instance, he may have been barred from sitting on the bench in any cases against Musharraf, being now a biased party. In that case, his restoration will mean nothing more than more suo-moto actions on administrative matters.

Besides, events now threatening Pakistan are those over which no CJ can exercise control:

Militants vow 'gift of death' for Pakistani troops MIRANSHAH, Pakistan, July 23 (AFP) Militants Monday warned Pakistani soldiers to quit fighting or face more suicide attacks, as peace talks faltered in the area bordering Afghanistan. Militants threatened that explosives would bring soldiers the “gift of death” in a pamphlet entitled “Till Islam Lives in Islamabad”, distributed in the town of Miranshah in the North Waziristan tribal district. The pamphlet, issued by a group calling itself the Mujahedin-e-Islam, accused Pakistani troops of doing the bidding of the United States and leading impure lives. Posted @ 14:00 PST)

Guys, leave Hamidm alone :).

His BS can be forgiven for two reasons:

a) he is trying to build bridges with Jihadis just in case he needs to retire in Pakistan and

b) he can not overcome all of his biases against indians despite all his noble efforts. Chowk is the only outlet since corporate PC rules will hang you if you say anything against others' "butt ugly" faces :)

Chennai

Hamid Mian is alright - one of few pakis who are NOT completely lost to bedounism... he just needs some "directions" every once in a while... being a pretty pathan boy - his brain waves only go so far... :)

hamidm2

Dude - that was years ago when the ugly madrasi general scre@ed your father's petite pathan a## - you are still carrying the grudge?... it's time to move on... :)

Re:#155 Posted by hamidm2 on

((((.... and jayp, you are so ugly that the doctor slapped your mama when you were born !))))

hamid....doesnt jay need a license to be that ugly?? jay is so ugly that you can borrow his face when your ass goes on holiday.The amazing thing about jay is that he still worships nature desoite what nature did to him.

#155 Posted by hamidm2

the moment half-breeds like this one starts foaming & frothing from all avlb orifices in their persona, its shut-eyes time......

... to all the hateful, and still horrible, hindoos on chowk,

...... just like your old president, your new president is butt ugly ... if it hadn't been for the grace of god and jinnah's foresight, she could have been our president ... even when she is having a bad hair day, or has been beaten up by asif zardar, benazir looks much much better ....... i would suggest you guys should immediately install sonia gandhi as pm to win this battle ...... even nawaz sharif with his new hair transplant looks like a million bucks compared to manmohan singh - who dragged in that rat ? ...

.... and jayp, you are so ugly that the doctor slapped your mama when you were born !

Chowk Staff: I see that, like the Chief Justice in Pakistan, the Interact Index on chowk has also been reinstated. Thus proving that you heard the voice of the people on chowk that sought this reinstatement. Thanks. :-)

Re: # 151 I notice I am never very far from your thoughts, you smoldering man from India. What an honor. :-)

As for your assurance that the "the final nail in the cofin of what Jinnah created.": Keep repeating this every day, and maybe some god flying past you will decide to make your deepest desires come true. Either that...or some good samaritan walking past you will take pity on you and put you in the insane asylum for the medical treatment you and all other smoldering Indians on chowk so badly need.

Todays Bum b Blast........

Last Updated: 23/07/2007 06:35
Bomb wounds five in Pakistan

A roadside bomb wounded five paramilitary soldiers on patrol in Pakistan's restive North Waziristan tribal region today.

Violence intensified in the region bordering Afghanistan after militants scrapped a peace deal with the government two weeks ago.

The remote-controlled bomb struck a vehicle carrying the soldiers in the Dosali area, some 40 kilometres south of Miranshah, North Waziristan's main town.

After the explosion, a local official said he saw several helicopter gunships circling the area.

The attack happened hours after two rocket attacks on a security post in a nearby town late on Sunday night.

Pakistan's Waziristan region has long been regarded as a safe haven for al-Qaeda and Taliban militants sheltered by militant ethnic Pashtun tribesmen.

Here we go again. The all weather friend of pakistan, islamic republics closest friend is communist, is the final nail in the cofin of what Jinnah created. The pakistanis have no shame in declaring china as the all weather friend, all that matters is yuan for the military and the tahmeds of pakistan have buried jinnahs great ideal of an islamic republic.

Se what they are doing on top for yuan, killing their own brothern.

The lal majis guys have hit a few birds with one bullet, literally by capturing the chinese.

LONDON: The Chinese Muslims of the oil-rich Xinjiang province, who are being handed over to China by the Pakistani regime since 9/11, are being swiftly executed by firing squads after forced confessions and summary trials, reveals a report in the British media.

A Western secret agency officers have told the Sunday Times that the real concern was that Chinese repression of the Muslims was creating recruits for terrorism. It said China has persuaded Pakistan and Kazakhstan to hand over captured militants for interrogation, secret trials and execution, a policy that may have fuelled the fundamentalist rage now gripping Pakistan, claims a report in the Sunday Times.

A Chinese student Ismail Semed – the father of seven-year-old son and six-year-old daughter – who was captured by Pakistani intelligence agencies from a Rawalpindi college where he was studying, was later handed over to China where he was shot in his heart the other day after two judges sentenced him to death.

Right Question

The pakistanis are against the US bombing waziristan terrorists. Then they say that it will lead to violent reaction through out pakistan. Who are these people that plan to react violently, they should be the supporters of wazi terrorists.

When lal majid was attacked, the quick response came from NWFP. So the conclusion is simple, islamabad to the frontier, the same jihadis, the same command structure.

It is time that the americans tested this fear theory. If there is violent reaction all over pakistan, bomb them all, it will not take much time for a B52 to fly from NWFP to isalmabd, and it will be a good demo for the pak army, they took ten days to attack a simple building, which a daisy cutter will do in seconds.

This will show once and for all whether the taliban is wide spread as I have been maintaining all along, or it is frontier issue.

I really look forward to the bombing of wazi. It will p[rove once and for all, my assertion that jihadis are general purpose killers, they have no political inclings, who ever the mullah tells to kill, a jihadi will kill.

#53 by cliftonbridge

The bad mullah element has clarified things by trying to blow up CJ supporters, its clear that they (the murderers) have left the party, now i am totally unreserved in my glee at what was a great victory not only for pakistanis but for justice and civil society believers everywhere.

I don't think so. The Mullahs had no reason to bomb the CJ's supporters. Since the bomber blew up near the PPP stall, it is clear who the target was. It is more likely that The Mullahs were upset at the PPP's lack of opposition to the Army action at Lal Masjid.

This is why this CJ reinstatement is an absolute non-issue with the power that is master of Pakistan...............

July 22: White House would consider direct assaults in Pakistan
Frances Townsend, the White House homeland security adviser, signaled today that the Bush administration would consider direct assaults on al-Qaeda hideouts in Pakistan.

Townsend was asked on "Fox News Sunday" why the United States isn't sending Special Forces, attack drones and anything else it can to wipe out al-Qaeda. She replied, "Just because we don't speak about things publicly doesn't mean we're not doing many of the things you're talking about."

She added, "Job number one is to protect the American people, and there are no options that are off the table."

A National Intelligence Estimate released Tuesday reported that al-Qaeda has grown stronger, in part because it has established "a safe haven" in northwest Pakistan, in the Federally Administered Tribal Area that is beyond the national government's control.

Pakistani Foreign Minister Kurshid Kasuri warned on CNN's "Late Edition" against the White House bypassing the Pakistani military in any operation.

"If you have superiority in technical intelligence, please share that with us," he said. "And then you talk of going after targets -- you will lose the war, the battle for hearts and minds. It is much better to rely on Pakistan['s] army. Pakistan['s] army can do the job much better, and the result will be that there will be far, far less collateral damage."

Kasuri added, "People in Pakistan get very upset when, despite all the sacrifices that Pakistan has been making, you know, you have the sort of questions that are sometimes asked by the American media" about whether Islamabad is doing enough to fight terrorists.

Sen. Evan Bayh (D-Ind.), appearing on Fox, called into question whether Pakistan has the ability to defeat al-Qaeda. But he added that the United States had to be careful in acting on its own. "If it is clear that we're going into their national territory, we run the risk of undermining a regime that has been one of our allies in this struggle," Bayh cautioned.

Appearing later on CNN, Townsend said the United States has provided intelligence to Pakistan. "We work quite closely with them," she said. "While I understand [Kasuri's] anger, we should also be clear that we believe Pakistan has been a very good ally in the war on terrorism."

But she added, "No question that we will use any instrument at our disposal to deal with the problem of Osama bin Laden and [bin Laden deputy Ayman al-]Zawahiri and al-Qaeda."

Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf decided to strike a "political solution" with tribal leaders to kick al-Qaeda out of the region, national intelligence director Mike McConnell said on NBC's "Meet the Press." Instead, "the people who live in these federally administrated tribal areas ... made a safe haven for training and recruiting."

McConnell said that Pakistan's help has been central to U.S. efforts to capture and kill al-Qaeda's leaders, but he believes bin Laden is living in the country.

Jin pay takiya ttha vohi pattay hava denay lagay!

Benazir is ditching Mushy:


Deal with Musharraf to damage PPP, says Benazir

By M. Ziauddin

LONDON, July 22: Former prime minister Benazir Bhutto has said that any deal with President Gen Pervez Musharraf in the present scenario will be damaging to her Pakistan People’s Party.

She said she is planning to return home early, tentatively in September.

In an interview published in the Sunday Times, she said the logic for a political deal that she had been contemplating with Gen Musharraf had been significantly weakened by the Supreme Court’s decision last week to reinstate Chief Justice Iftikhar Mohammad Chaudhry.

Any deal now with the general would be unpopular and damaging to her Pakistan People’s Party, she said. “He has lost his moral authority.

“His popularity rates are down and it would be very unpopular if we saved him. We would lose votes by being associated with him,” she said.

Ms Bhutto said the Supreme Court had reasserted the independence of the judiciary and the newly strengthened courts could topple Gen Musharraf through rulings on whether he could be appointed twice by the same assembly and whether he could continue to serve as both president and army chief of staff.

Critics said the real reason for the suspension of the Chief Justice had been that Gen Musharraf believed Justice Iftikhar would overrule his plans to be reappointed by the current parliament, in which he had a majority, rather than wait for a new assembly that was due to be elected by the end of this year.

The only circumstances in which Ms Bhutto might still consider an arrangement would be if she felt it necessary to guarantee fair parliamentary elections on time.

Ms Bhutto will wait to see if Gen Musharraf goes through with his plan to be reappointed by the assembly before deciding whether to abandon discussions with him.

She is, therefore, making plans for an early return to challenge plans by Gen Musharraf to secure a new term as president without waiting for elections.

Speaking in London, Ms Bhutto, who risks arrest on corruption charges on her return to Pakistan, said she felt that going home would be less hazardous than previously thought and she would make a final decision on the date next month.

“I said I would return by December, but now my people tell me we should go to court in regard to my return, and that I should come back as soon as possible, maybe in September. We will decide at a party meeting at the end of August,” she said. “I feel safer about returning after the Supreme Court’s decision.”

The reinstatement of the popular chief justice has left Gen Musharraf more isolated than at any time since he seized power in 1999.

This weekend Gen Musharraf was locked in emergency meetings with cabinet colleagues, plotting a strategy to save his leadership.

If he seeks a mandate from the current parliament but is overruled by the Supreme Court, he will be forced to hand over the presidency to a caretaker.

Ms Bhutto’s advisers are preparing to challenge his right to continue wearing his army chief’s uniform while serving as president, and are seeking to restore millions of voters to the electoral roll. They will also ask for a ruling on whether Ms Bhutto should be released if she is arrested when she returns to Pakistan.

Gen Musharraf’s strongest domestic ally in his war on the country’s militants has been Ms Bhutto. Despite public criticism of Gen Musharraf by US officials, they still believe that he is essential to hopes of restoring stability to the country. They also believe that he needs a deal with Ms Bhutto to make headway and restore democratic legitimacy.

The options:

A comeback by Benazir Bhutto: Likely, but she faces an uphill struggle to become prime minister again. She can nominate a colleague as prime minister while calling the shots as party boss.

Early election: Unlikely. Gen Musharraf will have to announce elections next week so that they can be held three months later, just before his term ends.

An army coup: Cannot be ruled out. There are rumblings in the ranks.

A return to barracks: Musharraf can choose to abandon politics, though his successor as president may regard him as a threat as chief of staff and pension him off.

down doggie down...no bone for you...

Pak top brass talks with US to avert attacks

Shaiq Hussain
ISLAMABAD - In the backdrop of fierce clashes between the army, paramilitary forces and militants in North Waziristan, Pakistan’s top security brass is engaged in intense negotiations with senior officials in Washington to avert possible US attacks on the restive tribal belt.
Strong indications from the US capital suggest growing restlessness among the security cadres over the surge in violence in Pakistan’s tribal belt and the alleged regrouping of Al-Qaeda and Taliban there.
The diplomatic circles here believe that the Bush administration was under increased pressure to mount assaults against the Al-Qaeda and Taliban militants in Waziristan from Afghanistan.
They said that in such a worrisome scenario, Pakistan was all out in its contacts with the top officials in Bush administration to avert possible military action from the US led allied forces on its soil fearing it would lead to catastrophic repercussions.
Sensing the urgency and seriousness of situation, Pakistani security forces on Sunday targeted the militants and killed six Taliban fighters in North Waziristan where the overnight battles left 13 miscreants dead.
After the scrapping of North Waziristan peace deal few days back by the militants that Pakistan had reached at with the tribesmen last year, the military and paramilitary forces have been trying their best to control the spiraling violence.
A diplomatic source said that Islamabad had been trying to impress upon the Bush administration that any attack on Waziristan or any other tribal area from outside would only add to the militancy in Pakistan.
“Pakistani officials have been urging restrain during their interaction with the US.
Authorities while telling them that Islamabad’s policy of talks for the revival of North Waziristan peace deal along with the use of force when and where it is required must be given a chance as it would bear fruits,” he said.

#112 Posted by cliftonbridge on July 22, 2007 10:08:30 am

Bridge, you know that Pakistanis have no well-wishers like me! But I do you or other Pakistanis no favors by sugarcoating. So I won’t.

You are reading me all wrong! Our GWB has no interest in the CJ issue – and he has only limited interest in the Mushy. However, he has every interest in making sure that the war on terror goes on and everyone does everything to ensure that any disruptions – CJ-related or otherwise, do not get in the way.

Mushy does not mind mass uprisings any more than any of the prior khaki regimes did. In fact, Pakistani mass uprisings have traditionally benefited the khakis because then the khakis can shout: “Omigawsh, Pakistan is breaking up, don’t you hear it bursting at its seams?! Quick, we need a savior around here! Hey, guess what – there is no savior like a khaki savior!”

Khakis LOVE a bit of song and dance in the streets! The mullahs are always happy to provide the same. This is a “Ram milaai joaDee” a match made through celestial magic! The two partners shall forever bicker – which two partners do not? – but when push comes to shove, they will extricate each other! And “ye bandhan kabhie bhi tooteyga naa…”!

Yes, Lal masjid was a disruption! Guess who allowed to build it up?!

But cracking on the black coats right after lal masjid would have been another disruption.

One disruption is barely acceptable – two disruptions in a row is a problem! GWB would not like it. So the Mushy decides to let this one slip by. But if anybody here thinks that he has changed his thinking on issues or has tempered his ambitions – you have been chomping Hamidm’s adrakh and slurping HP’s booze a bit too long!

Please note – there is no victory for those who are celebrating “victory” at this time! The khakis have made their point – they can pull a fast one any time they wish – and there are no penalties as long as they keep a few people satisfied – starting with our very own numero uno!

Where is the insaaf for the people who got killed – some for just doing their duty?! Where is the insaaf for all the pro-democracy protesters? That insaaf will come – but when? I will tell you when – the month after the khakis publish the Hamidur Rahman report and all those other reports that have yet to see daylight!

And Bridge, the sad truth is that Gandhiji would have been very proud of this “agitation” by Pakistani lawyers – and he would have been even more proud of their non-violent methods.

And the sad truth – as every Pakistani knows in his or her heart is – the very creation of Pakistan was a death knell into the idea that he stood for! The techniques used for creating it were sheer evil and everything that has happened there since its creation has been nothing short of the dance of evil!

It was a potent poison – Pakistani awaam has had too many swigs of it!

What killed Gandhiji was not the hail of bullets that pierced his chest – it was the victory of sectarian selfishness that ruled the subcontinent when he was alive!

And which still rules!

This Paki website is not working properly. The post from "Reply To This Interact" is not appearing where it should. Maybe they need to outsource the development work to "code coolies" in India?

This will free up more time for reading the koran.

Re: # 140

I put quotation marks around those statements because those are the things that would be there in your new Koran.

The pre-existing things that YOU HAVE SAID are the words of "allah" plus some of the "universal" messages that "prove" (because how could us humans have thought of these REVOLUTIONARY ideas ourselves?) that koran is clearly transmitted from the bearded dude himself - like "use your own brains, earthlings!" and so on...

Re: # 140

I put quotation marks around those statements because those are the things that would be there in your new Koran.

The pre-existing things that YOU HAVE SAID are the words of "allah" plus some of the "universal" messages that "prove" (because how could us humans have thought of these REVOLUTIONARY ideas ourselves?) that koran is clearly transmitted from the bearded dude himself - like "use your own brains, earthlings!" and so on...

Romair:

I accept your points on Pakistani armed forces, and their role. My point is that this general has been cornered by the people, whom the U.S. does not want to be removed. Somehow my gut tells me that this is the last general who will come to power by throwing civilian governments - it is my gut feel, as I said.

Considering his accomplishments, he indeed has accomplishments, and that he extracted the best deal, of any general from America for the support. No handing over of AQ Khan, of that Sheikh involved with Danny Pearl killing, rebuilding Pakistani economy, reforming education, women bill etc. It seems that this cornered general may be the best hope for an independent Prime Minister to complete the transition, judiciary has shown Presidential limits, and independence. Newly elected Prime Minister would not be able to do Nawaz Shariff on Judiciary, and restore independence of legislative as well. No puppet PMs. To me this is a sensible roadmap, which is realizable, this can lead to putting the generals back in the barracks. The force that would make it happen is that currently these guns are pointed not toward Arch Enemy - India, but toward internal Pakistan.

My approach is like not shooting the gun holder at this stage, but create forces and situations that will force the gun holder to go back to where he really belongs, the barracks. Civil unrest that can be unleashed if guns remain pointed toward however jehadist civilians for too long. This unrest can be unmaking of Pakistan, as it might drift into fundamentalism rather than make transition toward enlightened reforms.

Judiciary has been freed under this general, next goal should be to free legislative and restore "fair" election process, and finally the executive branch will see the limits in its office. Changing players at this stage to me, looks suicidal.

I am, therefore, for Musharraff.

Re: # 139 Last post to you since I have better things to do with my time than waste with someone trying to be cleverer than his is:

This is what you write Wise words like "think for yourself", "figure it out yourself", "use your brains, for crissakes", "use rationality and your own good judgement", "behead kafirs for a limited time only", "pour molten lead into their mouths ONLY when necessary" etc.

By putting quotes around sentences, you imply you are quoting me. By starting with some positive things I often write on chowk, and then adding phrases I never wrote, you clearly intended to lie.

So you can throw everything I say back in my face by saying it is I who is lying or that it is I who is trying to wiggle out with arguments - anyone with half a brain can figure out which one of us is the liar, which one of us is now trying to cover-up his lies by starting an argument.

Last post.

Re: # 137

looks like YOU are the one that's trying to wriggle out. Did you or did you not say that you believe that the koran is the word of "allah".

Re: # 132 Dont try to wiggle out with clever arguments now that you have been caught lying. Try to be honest instead if you want to be taken seriously.

Re: # 132 Dont try to wiggle out with clever arguments now that you have been caught lying. Try to be honest instead if you want to be taken seriously.

Re: # 130

[Stuka had earlier described you earlier on chowk since he considers you an embarrasment to normal Indians like himself - and I can see he was on the mark.

See the fallacy? :)

test

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Re: # 111 I have heard similar things from people involved in NGO schools in Pakistan. In the past 20 years in particular, there has been widespread awakening to the value of education for girls in particular among the poor. Parents from remote villages often beg to have schools opened - this was not the case until the end of the 1980's I think.

Re: # 130

Oh, so no beheading kafirs? I thought that WAS in the koran, and I distinctly remember you saying that you believe that the koran is the word of allah.

Re: # 109 read my response to dost mittar below.

Re: # 128 I see what you are doing: Copying positive things I wrote, and then adding additional phrases cooked up by your own sick mind("behead kafirs for a limited time only", "pour molten lead into their mouths ONLY when necessary") that I never wrote to make it look like I wrote them too.

Stuka had earlier described you earlier on chowk since he considers you an embarrasment to normal Indians like himself - and I can see he was on the mark.

Re: # 120 Some Indians have a great need to be noticed now that they are here on chowk to do their patriotic duty of arguing with us Pakis, and so will drag India into everything. :-)

Oh, I forgot. tahmed's book will also be chock-full of "universal" messages - that we had NO CLUE about before his book was written. Wise words like "think for yourself", "figure it out yourself", "use your brains, for crissakes", "use rationality and your own good judgement", "behead kafirs for a limited time only", "pour molten lead into their mouths ONLY when necessary" etc.

Re: # 116 Mr. Madani: If stock indices climbed as a result of dictatorships, then US, UK, India stock would be low. Next you will be crediting Musharraf with the sun rising on time every day, as if under a democratic government the sun would rise late, shine less brightly, and demand a bribe.

Re: # 116 Mr. Madani: If stock indices climbed as a result of dictatorships, then US, UK, India stock would be low. Next you will be crediting Musharraf with the sun rising on time every day, as if under a democratic government the sun would rise late, shine less brightly, and demand a bribe.

#109 Posted by mohar11

[OK - why does mullah32 keep insisting that pakis don't like their mullahs, against all evidence and common sense?... it looks like mullahs are more in tune with paki unwashed masses than anybody else, certainly not the so-called "moderate" types like lawyers and what not...

I mean - pakis like sharia, mullahs like sharia... pakis want an islamic republic, mullahs want an islamic republic... so WTF is mullah32 talking about? ]

mullah32 is sitting in a cave waiting for a winged creature to show up (only bats have shown up until now). He is writing HIS version of the holy book which he will claim was transmitted to him by winged creatures in a cave. His version will be full of love and goodwill towards all creatures and peace and non-violence. He's already contracted the Dalai Lama to write a preface.

Re: # 107 Dost Mittar: You mean the print media you have read talks about "mass demonstrations" in support of the mullahs of tribal areas or of lal masjid that are anything like the kind that have come out in support of the democracy movement?? If you have, then indeed you and I read different print media and therefore could you please refer me to the print media that I am missing (no Indian sources please, I have found it as full of bs as most Indian posters on chowk - with a few exceptions of course).

Also, please dont try to reach conclusions based on the print media alone. Leave it for Arjun/JayP to announce on chowk "Pakis bite dogs" and present a cut and paste of a news item that says "Man bites dog in Lahore" as proof. But you dont make that same mistake, and have the humility to leave open the possibility that perhaps there is a lot that you dont understand about a place unless you have lived there for years, or are one of the community. Leave open the possibility that, regardless of the what the print media says, most bites are from dogs to men in Pakistan, and not vice versa. :-)

btw, you seem to think that lal masjid and the tribal areas are the same thing and you wont find the print media understanding that the latter is as remote for the average Pakistani as the other side of the moon, while lal masjid was in the middle of a city in Pakistan. And despite years in the city, lal masjid remained like a foreign outpost in Islamabad - a friend of mine who lived close by thought it was a good idea to have his domestic servant, a teenaged boy, take time off to study at lal masjid. After two months he had to take him out because the servant complained that he was treated like an outsider by the rest of the student and the teachers. Understand this, and you will understand the lack of support to the lal masjid occupants by the locals during the seige - alternatively, assume that the print media you read explains it all and ignore the ground realities I was drawing your attention to.

Re: # 107 Dost Mittar: You mean the print media you have read talks about "mass demonstrations" in support of the mullahs of tribal areas or of lal masjid that are anything like the kind that have come out in support of the democracy movement?? If you have, then indeed you and I read different print media and therefore could you please refer me to the print media that I am missing (no Indian sources please, I have found it as full of bs as most Indian posters on chowk - with a few exceptions of course).

Also, please dont try to reach conclusions based on the print media alone. Leave it for Arjun/JayP to announce on chowk "Pakis bite dogs" and present a cut and paste of a news item that says "Man bites dog in Lahore" as proof. But you dont make that same mistake, and have the humility to leave open the possibility that perhaps there is a lot that you dont understand about a place unless you have lived there for years, or are one of the community. Leave open the possibility that, regardless of the what the print media says, most bites are from dogs to men in Pakistan, and not vice versa. :-)

btw, you seem to think that lal masjid and the tribal areas are the same thing and you wont find the print media understanding that the latter is as remote for the average Pakistani as the other side of the moon, while lal masjid was in the middle of a city in Pakistan. And despite years in the city, lal masjid remained like a foreign outpost in Islamabad - a friend of mine who lived close by thought it was a good idea to have his domestic servant, a teenaged boy, take time off to study at lal masjid. After two months he had to take him out because the servant complained that he was treated like an outsider by the rest of the student and the teachers. Understand this, and you will understand the lack of support to the lal masjid occupants by the locals during the seige - alternatively, assume that the print media you read explains it all and ignore the ground realities I was drawing your attention to.

#120 Posted by cliftonbridge

[where did ahmed accuse india and hindu's? ]

read ahmedmadani's old posts.

I have seen pakis like YLH keep calling us, India, the "beggar" country. I was just listening on CNN to two senators who were telling the Americal public how president mushu-baba has emphasized that in order to eradicate terrorism from his country, America would have to give him money to improve the lot of these people.

It's like "if you don't give us money we'll send suicide bombers at you".

How pathetic is that? At least we Indians don't beg like you guys.

Shame on you Pakis.

i think ahmed made a good point Mush can not be blamed for all illiteracy and injustice in pakistan. where did ahmed accuse india and hindu's?

#116 Posted by ahmedmadani

dear mr. ahmedmadani,

How are your goats? Is your depression under control nowadays? Please provide a detailed analysis of how Hindus and India are to blame for the situation in Pakiland and what Pakiland is going to do about it.

Looking forward to your analysis.

misc. by bulleya

....i....would like to.......take this........opportunity to congratulate........you on.......the extremely....... inventive as well.......as... predictive name...."bulleya". The....... amount......of "bull"....you ......dispense goes SO well with......your......name. Keep.......it up.......

Empowered-schempowered..the verdict is in..pakiland will be greasing up and bending over...

Al-Qaeda safe haven in Pakistan ‘troubling’: Bush

WASHINGTON: President George W Bush said on Saturday he was troubled by a US intelligence report that al-Qaeda has become entrenched in a safe haven in Pakistan’s tribal region near Afghanistan.

But Bush offered support for Pakistan’s embattled president, saying he believes Pervez Musharraf is committed to fighting al-Qaeda and Taliban militants.

Part of the National Intelligence Estimate made public this week found a “persistent and evolving” threat to the United States from Islamic militant groups, especially Osama bin Laden’s al-Qaeda.

Bush, in his taped weekly radio address, said the report’s assessment that al-Qaeda was gaining strength in the tribal region of Pakistan was “one of the most troubling.”

Musharraf must contend with a violent campaign by Islamic militants and porous mountain borders that make it hard to halt the flow of fighters, weapons, opium and other drugs.

The White House has acknowledged that a truce Musharraf reached in September with tribal leaders had not worked. Bush, now more than four years into a war in Iraq that has stretched the US military, said Pakistan’s tribal leaders had proven unwilling or unable to police the area themselves.

“President Musharraf recognizes the agreement has not been successful or well-enforced and is taking active steps to correct,” Bush said.

“We will work with our partners to deny safe haven to the Taliban and al-Qaeda in Pakistan ñ or anywhere else in the world.”

Sen John Kerry, a Massachusetts Democrat who lost to Bush in the 2004 presidential election, said US intelligence agencies have warned that the Iraq war was diverting attention from al-Qaeda in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

“Our troops and our country need a new policy from this president, not the same old rhetoric,” he said in a statement.

US forces in Afghanistan have carried out strikes in Pakistan, often with missile-carrying Predator drone aircraft, without confirming them so as not to embarrass Musharraf.

I feel this CJ restoration is over done and trival thing is over exposed to trouble general. Its all foolishness. Nothing has changed if you want to drink tead you need to put sugar not writings about "CJ' thing is going to make sweet. These scoundrel lawyers who are hated by poor men will go home and drink cocacola with visky put in and will spend time in hangover. Poor man pulling load like donkey is going to do same with cj or noncj. I am just tired of people blaming general for every wrong thing in country.
While wise people are studying KSE indices, stocks, bonds, treasury, interest rates, rents, real estatate and all good stuff and poor are asked to get happy for CJ thing is whole maddness. Any way all stupid over doing thing, needs to get sleep, good night and good luck.

General if to much pressured can put Bush in trouble. As if he refuses to provide oil for us and nato forces from Attock refinery bush will be in trouble. Also all fuels supply operation carried by native personal. And he can bring it to halt in one minute if he singlas to agencies all supply trucks with fuel will burn like hell. Without oil american army is nothing. Also he can withdraw military assets and tell usa do whatever you want to do, He can plead he has no that many army people so unable to do any thing and let agencies help tribals. All control is not with america pakistan govt may not be able to attack or resist american entrance in tribal areas but can make life miserable to american army. Also if govt denies free access and use of airports to bomb in A.stan to american airmachines can be extremely hardship on usa airmachines. General is little down due lawyers conspiraries and intrigue but he is not out and usa govt knows it so bush has given full support to general. Bush may not be brilliant as some people but he is not fool to become president of usa. Juglar vein of american operations in A.stan is pakistani bases and airfields and oil supply and transportation and musharaff can squeeze littlw and America will yield to pakistan army chief's wishes. Do not think pakistan is powerless in usa pakistan relationship , it is milked schrewdly by general only only general does not want to milk so much as cow dies. General is great army man but more brilliant tactician. Please donot malign or underestimate general as it will be detrimental for fight against terrorists.

ajeet #: "I tend to disagree. The CJ got the support from the people precisely because, the honeymoon with Mushy was getting sore and there was no other Messiah available."

...i think you may be missing the point......the cj was an unknown entity, prior to this issue....i doubt most pakistanis could have named him.....

.......had this, "honeymoon" been for a known political leader, who was to actually get executive power, your theory would have been correct........however, what executive power does a cj have........none.......he cannot do anything for anyone......he could barely get his own son a govt. job through sifarish (the case against him was based on that)......

........the people came out because they wanted the supremacy of law.......led by the lawyers and media......lawyers came out because they were tired of their institution getting kicked out by the army, and their own leadership - judges - not taking a stand........

as i said, this may be internationally unprecedented.......i have heard of people putting politicians into power.......but i have never heard of people putting a cj back into power.....

.....another ironic part of this is that the whole future of the country was in the hands of a hindu judge....all this was overseen by justice bhagwandas......he could have very well declined and allowed musharraf to push the judiciary into submission.......

Re: # 111

Similar things are in India.
There girls are killed at birth so no education problem.
There is going to be war in india for brides. It is getting ugly specially in former pakistan area of east Punjab. Jaths are sending people south India for brides in south and buy them for "good" money and marry them and so bad even they accept dalits girls as daughter in laws. Afterwards they are beating them for producing girls and dark boys. Any way in india or pakistan its hard for women either die early when 3 days old in india or become burden of beast for bad lands/tribal. Nothing has changed in India. Atleast in Karachi rich family women are driving car go foreign for shopping trips india its hard for man woman or even beast due to lack of food water and clothe and living quarters.
Any way its just such stuff going in badlands of Mullah dominated religois areas rest is just fine like europe.

Funny how almost everyone has missed the point here.

BJ you said "Fear of mass uprising – or fear of the Bush?! (If you thought the former, guess again!)" ...and pray tell why would Bush be so interested in reinstating a guy who is asking for habeus corpeus for the northwesteners in Bush's war aginst whatever? It is precisely BECAUSE of the mass uprisings and the media coverage which would reach all the way to Washington.

Again, the victory is of a nonviolent well executed unprecedented grass roots movement that won.

Many people are on this CJ honeymoon for the wrong reasons thats true ...and those people will likely be dissappointed pretty soon, some of them have already left the party. This will not result in Mush being sacked or anything else on the MMA agenda ....infact they have little long term gain from this.

Like i said the only long term victors are the ones who belive in a civil (and secular) society.

Dear hamidm sahab ....although a lot of pakistani media coverage is trash, and alot is propaganda but its freer and stronger than its ever been and now i think it will be tough to put the genie back in the bottle. Thats always good for civil society. The price of freedom is that people you dont like will also be free to speak. I accept that.
And about the pin stripe Quran holders...i hope that they will transform the islamist movement and free it from thee the paralyzing stupidity of the other better known kind of mullahs...at this point i actually think i might shoot fazlufuk in the head myself.


Villages in competition to stop education of girls




By Sher Baz Khan

IMAM DERI (Swat), July 21: Seven-year-old Shireena is playing in a stream with some other children at a somewhat unusual pre-noon time on a busy working day. Normally, she stays in her classroom at this hour except during weekends, but today she is not. She is among more than 2,000 unfortunate girls of the area whose parents have decided to take them out of the schools after cleric Maulana Fazlullah issued an edict declaring girls’ education ‘un-Islamic’.

According to some locals, a majority of the girls stopped by their parents from attending schools, were the first in their families to have had the opportunity of getting formal education and Shireena was one of them.

The female education ratio in Imam Deri and the nearby Koza Banda, Bara Banda, Kabal and Char Bagh villages is very low. And things are likely to remain the same with little chances for many families to send their girls to schools after the edict.

Perhaps it was because of the very low literacy rate and vulnerability of the locals to religious propaganda that Maulana Fazlullah chose Imam Deri to build his first markaz — where he wanted to establish his first religious school, his FM radio station and all the facilities to gather people for sermons.

Fazlullah got a befitting response from parents in the area after he declared girls’ schooling un-Islamic.

According to local journalists and some elders, thousands of parents across Swat followed his edict and stopped girls from attending schools.

The maulana has adopted a successful method of putting various villages into competition. He announces a fatwa on his radio station and gives the task to a single village to follow it. Then he announces the number of people from that village who follow the edict and promises them heavenly rewards for taking a step towards the implementation of sharia in the country.

Then he gives the challenge to another village to surpass the first one and the response is always more positive.

“He is playing with the psyche of simple Pakhtuns who want to be ahead of their neighbours in anything that is meant to spread the cause of Islam,” says Hidayatullah Khan of the nearby Kanjo village.

When Fazlullah announced recently that polio vaccination was un-Islamic, he followed the same method and the response was amazing.

On the very first day, parents of about 5,000 children refused to get their sons and daughters vaccinated. The maulana congratulated all those parents on his radio station and appealed to more families to win heavenly rewards.

The next day, the anti-polio teams were denied permission to administer the vaccine to 8,600 children. The third day saw attacks on vaccination teams in many villages.

The same method enabled Fazlullah to collect donations amounting to about Rs400 million for his markaz project, some locals told Dawn. They said the money was never deposited in any bank and, till recently, kept in the basement of the under-construction markaz. They said a large number of women had donated their jewellery for the project.

The radio station has been installed in the building for over a year.

Even after the deployment of 5,000 army and FC men in the Malakand region, the maulana was able to broadcast his recorded messages on Wednesday night, in which he termed the deployment un-Islamic and told the people to wait for his ‘very important’ announcement to be made shortly.

Many people in the nearby Mingora city believe that the maulana will keep on giving edicts on various issues as long as he is in control of the radio station and the markaz.

Fazlullah has vanished from the scene after the army deployment but everything is still in his control.

Though Shireena will tell you how she liked her school and wanted to become a doctor, an increase in girls’ education in the area will remain a dream as long as the maulana is there, issuing edicts, the locals said.

Dost,

'.. I think that Pakistan may not have had a democratic government, but it generally has had governments with popular backing. Pakistani governments have been more in tune with their masses..'

This might be true, but it is like driving a car with no brakes, and having to hit a wall every time you want to stop.

Bulleya,

'..........however this instance is ...unique.....perhaps unique in the world.....people aren't rising up to support a political leader or a dictator...'

I tend to disagree. The CJ got the support from the people precisely because, the honeymoon with Mushy was getting sore and there was no other Messiah available. Check out the tons of rose petal being showered on CJ every where. This an offering to the new Messiah and not to the rule of law. Sadly all Messiahs have feet of clay, when people expect them to be all gold.

OK - why does mullah32 keep insisting that pakis don't like their mullahs, against all evidence and common sense?... it looks like mullahs are more in tune with paki unwashed masses than anybody else, certainly not the so-called "moderate" types like lawyers and what not...

I mean - pakis like sharia, mullahs like sharia... pakis want an islamic republic, mullahs want an islamic republic... so WTF is mullah32 talking about?

BJ

Dude - Don't rain on the paki parade, let them celebrate their victory, however small and incosequential it may be... allah knows they don't get much victories over their military... :)

Alright pakis - don't mind BJ, go splurge... why don't you send some cyber sweets to all chowkies for this great day of vitory?... :)

tahmed#104:

Do you disagree with me that Musharraf's support of the US operations in the NWFP lacks popular backing? If so, you have probably been reading different Pakistani media than I do.

bulleya:

".......however, they still have faith in the judicial system.......another point that i have always highlighted......there is, a general sense of the importance of rule of law in pakistan......the legal system and the media are two areas that still have some credibility......."

You may have a point. All Pakistani dictators have thought it necessary to get a rubber-stamp approval from the Supreme Court under the "doctrine of necessity". A British legacy, perhaps?

How delusional a whole class of individuals from a certain land (which should have been) called West India seems to have become!

First, who has always held power in that place? The guys with guns! Guess what, they still do. Along with the gun – they get the prize of running the place – creating more stakeholders who like things to stay in those same hands.

Second, what made the justices take their “principled stand”?! Love for the country (stop laughing!)? Their love for idealism? (I said STOP laughing!) Love for their own behinds?! (They do have their behinds – haven’t you seen them looking at it continuously and nervously?!)

Third, what made the khakis not crack the whip last week?! Fear of mass uprising – or fear of the Bush?! (If you thought the former, guess again!)

Fourth, how many divisions does the CJ or anybody else except the khakis command?!

So what has changed since last week? A big fat zero! Now go back to your pillows and cry…

MaiN ne chaand aur sitaaroN ki tamannaaa kit hi
Mujhko raatoN ki sayahee ke siwa – kuchh na milaaa

Dost Mittar: That is a bold stand you are taking (i.e. that "dictators" in Pakistan have been there with the de facto support of the people, and have been removed from power through "bloodless" revolutions. It is certainly one based on reason. And let us pray that Musharraf does not try to change the precedence, and leaves peacefully rather than trying to have a violent confrontation with peaceful demonstrators.

I have one quibble on popular opinion concerning Musharraf's handling of Islamic extremists: while no doubt the Islamic extremists are a vocal bunch, they are also the minority and considered to be the problem rather than any kind of solution by the vast majority of Pakistanis. As proof of this, note the public reaction to the storming of the lal masjid, where there has been no popular uprising of any kind. Far from it, in fact. People simply said that this was long overdue, and the next major demonstration was the one in Lahore a few days after lal masjid - that demonstration being part of the democracy movement led by the lawyers (mantolives colleagues!!) where religious parties merely tagged along like the non-religious parties.

So, dont make the mistake that gandhi made of paying attention to the mauvlis because they squeak the loudest and ignoring the lawyers and other middle class professionals of Pakistan. The latter provide the moral and intellectual leadership in Pakistan, and people see through the maulvis despite the latters attempts at inflating their importance through loudspeakers and noisy demonstrations with flag-burnings etc.

dost-mittar #: "Pakistani governments have been more in tune with their masses. When they are sick of politicians, a popular military dictator emerges (I still remember how Pakistanis were happy when Ayub took over as "milkmen stopped adding water to the milk", among other things), and when they are tired of the dictator, he goes."

..i would agree with this.......however this instance is different....unique.....perhaps unique in the world.....people aren't rising up to support a political leader or a dictator.......they have risen up to support the rule of law.....

basically, people have come out on to the street for a concept, not for a person........no one even knows who the chief justice was.......or maybe even is......he cannot do much for them, as he will never have political power........

.....in addition, people have not come out on the street against musharraf, as such......they are yet to do that, despite the efforts of political parties......thoough they are fed up of musharraf - if for no other reason than the incumbency factor -, they are equally fed up of the political parties.....

.......however, they still have faith in the judicial system.......another point that i have always highlighted......there is, a general sense of the importance of rule of law in pakistan......the legal system and the media are two areas that still have some credibility.......

#101 Posted by dost_mittar on July 22, 2007 7:47:42 am


I still remember how Pakistanis were happy when Ayub took over as "milkmen stopped adding water to the milk", among other things)


Capt clueless was as pro-military-takeover as they come..he was telling us, when mushy took over, that the people only cared about economic issues and they didn't care about democracy..

of course..he also told us after 9/11 that pakiland had US winds in it's sails and India had better hand over Kashmir ASAP or Pakiland would be stringer in a few years and would use the jihadis to take it away by force..

ajeet:

"My only concern is, that was this massive support for the rule of law, or is it that the public was tired of the old Messiah and just looking for another Messiah. Would the people again celebrate the coming of another dictator when they are tire of the politicians."

I think that you are closer to the truth. I think that Pakistan may not have had a democratic government, but it generally has had governments with popular backing. Pakistani governments have been more in tune with their masses. When they are sick of politicians, a popular military dictator emerges (I still remember how Pakistanis were happy when Ayub took over as "milkmen stopped adding water to the milk", among other things), and when they are tired of the dictator, he goes. All this is accomplished without bloodshed. The directions they give to the country are geneerally with popular backing, whether it is declaring Pakistan an Islamic state, creating sharia courts or adventurism in Kashmir or Afghanistan. The major exception has been Musharraf's support of the US in the post 9/11 period, especially his collaboration with the Americans against his own countrymen in the NWFP and FATA.

While in India, especially during the Nehru era, a lot of policies-good (Hindu Code Bill and banning of caste) and bad (anti americanism)- were pursued which did not have popular support because the elected members of Parliament went along with it because of the Party discipline and their fear of Nehru. Even now, my hunch is that most Indians would prefer a Uniform Civil Code over separate laws for Hindus, Muslims, Christians and Parsees. There have been times when Indians too have been tired of their politicians and would have also supported any white knight if one had emerged, as indeed they did when Indira Gandhi imposed a virtual dictatorship and "babus started to come to work on time".

The verdict is in...Dubya says pakis need to do more..

Bush terms Sept deal a failure: Report on ‘Al Qaeda havens’ endorsed

By Anwar Iqbal

WASHINGTON, July 21: US President George W. Bush on Saturday endorsed an intelligence report claiming that Al Qaeda has established a safe haven in the tribal areas of Pakistan.

In his weekly radio address, Mr Bush also noted that the agreement President Gen Pervez Musharraf had signed with tribal elders in North Waziristan has failed but expressed full confidence in the Pakistani leader’s ability to fight terrorists.

Referring to a report submitted to the White House last week by 16 US intelligence agencies, Mr Bush said: “One of the most troubling is its assessment that Al Qaeda has managed to establish a safe haven in the tribal areas of Pakistan bordering Afghanistan.”

The Pakistan Foreign Office, however, has rejected the US report as ‘unsubstantiated’ and has urged Washington to ‘actionable intelligence.’

“It does not help simply to make assertions about the presence or regeneration of Al Qaeda in bordering areas of Pakistan. What is needed is concrete and actionable information and intelligence sharing,” the Foreign Office said.

Mr Bush, however, said that even President Musharraf recognised that the agreement he signed on Sept 5 with tribal elders for policing their area had failed and he was “taking active steps to correct it.”

He noted that earlier this month, President Musharraf sent in troops to go after radicals who seized control of a mosque, and “then he delivered a speech vowing to rid all of Pakistan of extremism.”

He linked the US global campaign against Al Qaeda to Pakistan’s efforts to quell extremist violence and expressed full US support for Gen Musharraf efforts to rid his country of extremism, including an Al Qaeda “safe haven” in tribal areas.

“Pakistani forces are in the fight, and many have given their lives. The United States supports them in these efforts. And we will work with our partners to deny safe haven to the Taliban and Al Qaeda in Pakistan — or anywhere else in the world,” Mr Bush said.

Govt trying to avert foreign attack: FM

By Ashraf Mumtaz

LAHORE, July 21: Pakistan has informed the Western countries that it is trying to control cross-border movement of militants in tribal areas so that no country gets an excuse to go for direct strikes.

Foreign Minister Khurshid Mehmood Kasuri, talking to reporters at his residence here on Saturday, said the government wanted to deal with the situation through political means, including adherence to the peace accord.

He said although the extremists had unilaterally withdrawn from the agreement, the NWFP governor was still doing his best to deal with the situation in a peaceful manner.

The minister claimed the army had been sent to the tribal areas in an attempt to save the accord and avoid ‘collateral damage’. Asked about the possibility of direct US attacks, he said the army wanted to avoid the killings and it was because of its careful planning that the casualty ratio between the two sides was much less than the one being witnessed in Iraq.

He said 500 troops had been killed against 800 militants, which was much less than 1:20 or 1:100 ratio monitored in Iraq. In tribal areas, he said, hand-to-hand combat was going on and the government was not using artillery.

Mr Kasuri said the Western countries were alleging that militants were crossing into Afghanistan from the tribal areas. The government, he said, had informed them that it was trying to stop such activities.

Check out the Washington Post Outlook section which is dedicated to articles on muslim society written by muslims (Jay Prakash Thakeray to please take two tranquilizers, put on his straitjacket, and sit down somewhere before he starts reading).

WP front page, see Outlook Section on left side of webpage

hamidm: Thanks for excluding me from your list of "suit-wearing maulvis". "My" Islam is far from "useless" as you say. This is why:

1. Instead of surrendering my faith to ghoondas, as you have, I retain my faith and kick these rogues out.

2. I have peace of mind because I am being honest with myself when I consider myself a muslims, and have a reasonable basis for my beliefs.

3. I have peace of mind because I know that the religion of my people is a good religion that teaches universal values and has a positive message. It is not the self-serving tricks and short-cuts to heaven that power-hungry bearded politicians and bearded ghoondas seek to make it. I dont need to take a sip from the bottle to feel good about myself (OK, this is a cheap shot, which I am permitted once in a while).

bubba #92 who is this post addressed to? just curious.