An Empowering Verdict!

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Poor pakistanis,

The pakistanis are celebrating a Pyrrhic victory, where there is nothing to celebrate. When the CJ went to Karachi, 50 people were killed by the local thugs and no one was charged with any crime. It was written off as another sectarian violence, another application of the hoodood law, where no one filed an FIR, no crime was committed.

Now the CJ is a dead man walking, one of the army jihadst is going to kill the CJ. Then there will be something real for the pakistansi to celebrate.

.....this has to be considered a defining moment in the history of the country.....absolutely no doubt about it.....anyone who does not realize this, has very little undersanding of pakistan....

....ever since, i have been on chowk, i have mentioned the following:

1. ....the army is powerful, not because it has guns, but, because its leadership always remains united behind its coas, regardless of circumstances

2. ....the civilian institutions are weak in front of the army, because the army can, always, successfully split them up....anytime any civilian institution sticks together - specifically political leaders or judiciary - they will dominate the army.....

3. ....there are only two groups in pakistan, who have, traditionally, shown the ability to take a stand against the govt. - lawyers (not judges, but lawyers) and press...

4. ......the reason pakistan does not have democracy is because the judiciary has been too scared to take on the army......however, if it does take on the army, i guaranteed it would win and the army would back off.....

i think, to a great extent this is what has happened.....the lawyers and press have taken on the army, the army has backed off.......the judiciary has finally remained united, despite the army's best efforts to divide them.......and finally, it has stood by its chief justice....and the army is running for cover, despite its guns......

it was that simple......having seen the military from the inside, i knew this is what would happen......

.....we are, now, in uncharted waters, as far as pakistan is concerned...the judiciary has never been able to dominate the army, before........lets see what happens.....

p.s.....while the judiciary has stuck together, the army has succeeded in breaking the opportunistic politicians........one whif of a chance in power, and dropping of corruption cases agaisnt benazir and zardari, and ppp is ready to make a deal with the army..

ppp supporters should die of embarrasment.........

Bulleya,

In pakistan there is no concept of the rule of law and that is why the military takes over. Your notion that it has got nothing to do with the guns is nonsense, they are the implementors of law and order in pakistan.

The judiciary is nothing, it has no guns to implement. Howmany habious corpus orders of the judiciary has gone with out any action. How many murders have net been investigated because no charges are file.

Pakistan being an islamic republic only the mullas count. See the hue and cry about lal majid. When 50 people were killed in Karachi when the CJ was visiting, no one cared about filing a single murder charge.

CJ case is nothing in pak history. After every military coup the military has changed so many of the laws of pakistyan and they all have been ratified by the judges, the law of inevitability.

Your talk of judiciary having power has to precede some concept of people created legal system in pakistan.

When the sheria court is the supreme law ratifier in pakistan, that has up held the hoodood and blasphemy laws, there can be no significance to this case of a single CJ.

Go out to the streets, the jihadis are roaming them, and they recognize no law of the CJ

nice to see good news about pakistan for a change. a very hopeful sign indeed.

July 20 will no doubt go down in history. A great day for all sane people in the world, Pakistanis or not.

Re: # 3 Are you unhappy for your neighbourhood getting more lawful ?
Indians want in pakistan military rule or Mullacracy for then their system appears better?
Only bad thing is army chief is diminished when he is about to assault Al Queda fanatics. But strong support of usa and coming billions of dollars in tribal areas from usa can change fanaticsm to more civilised rule. Which is good for A.Stan and India. Indians wish bad luck to pakistan is real think

....... i hate to be a wet blanket, but the madrasi, jay bahadur, does make a valid point ........ with the federal sharia court, the council for islamic ideology and the special terrorism courts in place it is not really clear - at least to me - how much weight the cj actually carries inspite of his fine moustache ...... what if tomorrow he is accused of the unislamic practice of washing his butt with his right hand or posessing his woman with his left hand?.......... will the federal sharia court be able to sentence him to a public stoning ?

....... it might be phyrric victory, but let's enjoy it anyway .......

Well, this is a landmark judgment by Supreme Court of Pakistan against a military led government. The honorable judges deserve salute from a nation which is practically deprived of basic civil rights. A best decision under the circumstances.

But Pakistanis should not waste the zing of this legal and constitutional movement. They have to be more organized and a great responsibility lies on the shoulders of judiciary now. They have made an example for other civil institutions and they must carry on.

Re: # 8
There was politics played in judgement.
When General put new chief justice in charge Javed Iqbal things were going pretty his way. Note general is native of Sindh. Rana Bhagvandas was in India when he kicked CJ. When he return from India ( He is also native Sindhi) he had some discussion in India with local judges and they made plan. When he returned he took charge and slowly turned all against another sindi and stabbed him in back as earlier he was not made chief justice by president.
This classic case of Sindhi stabbing sindhi, this reason Sindhis are backward community in Pakistan.
Personal politics.

Re: # 7
Mr.H you have point. But you and Jaybahadur too logical. Do not think but enjoy cj restoration. People who think too much are never happy. Ignorance is bliss. Too much thinking and too much college makes you miserable aqnd more stupid.
Enjoy moment, they pass fast.

Hamidm: That is good advice from Mr.Madani, i.e. Too much thinking and too much college makes you miserable aqnd more stupid.

I realize you and musharraf are the enlightened ones while the rest of us unwashed Pakis are... well... washed, but with lotas. And of course we are so stupid as to have respect for our religion. But nevertheless - this is a great day for Pakistan. The greatest day for Pakistan as far as I can remember. And the Supreme Court of Pakistan fired the shot heard around the world!!

Re: # 9

You have got a wrong mindset. Its negative to be fair to your post. There is no ethnic bias in this case which you are reffering to.

joieya: Well said. Musharraf can no longer flaunt himself as being the "enlightened moderate" in Pakistan, the lesser of two evils with maulvis being the only option.

The Supreme Court backed by the brave people of Pakistan have "fired the shot heard around the world", and proved that the third option is alive and well in Pakistan - the option of a lawful, civilized society.

Re: # 13

Yes and let’s cross our hands for the upcoming events, uniform and election of Mr. Musharraf by the sitting rubber stamps. Judiciary has to be very shrewd and organized to outplay the tyranny.

What a misguided optimism in the article!

The way people of Pakistan, from ordinary citizen to judiciary, had flocked around current military chief when he grabbed civilian power is reminiscent of the times of previous military dictator and as a matter of fact, of those who were before him too. Chief Justice who has come to face General Musharraf as an adversary had once conferred legitimacy upon military rule.

Judiciary is the arcane pillar of democracy. Neither should it involve in sloganeering nor sociopolitical activism for it better suits administration and other political institutions. Pakistani judiciary has shown interest in both, unfortunately.

CJ victory is symbolically important but anybody who thinks of CJ reinstatement is a sign of fundamental change for democracy in Pakistan lives in fools paradise. Administration and opposition in Pakistan almost always wore same stripes and have always been involved in politics for gaining power at the expense of political philosophy.

Democracy is never a product of one issue like CJ. It is an attitude, a mind-set and social frame work that develops alongside socioeconomic fabric of the society. I am not sure how CJ’s protests have fundamentally altered any of the socioeconomic dynamics of the country that forms the bedrock of tradition, law and institutions?

Re: # 15 you say "Democracy is never a product of one issue like CJ. I am not sure how CJ’s protests have fundamentally altered any of the socioeconomic dynamics of the country that forms the bedrock of tradition, law and institutions?"

The support for the CJ, paid for by the lives of peaceful demonstrators on May 12, are what has defeated the military dictator. He knows quite well that the Pakistan army itself will refuse to fire at peaceful demonstrators - which is what happened with Ayub Khan. He could read this writing on the wall three months ago.

Also: the importance of issues on which the CJ took a stand - habeas corpus, free and fair elections - are fundamental to a civilized society. So rest assured that the people of Pakistan are more "enlightened" than the self-proclaimed "enlightened moderates" on the one hand and the islamic fanatics on the other.

Re: # 14 joieya: The months ahead should indeed prove significant. Musharraf is in a sense cornered - if he steps down from power, he faces a barrage of lawsuits; and if he "stays the course", he faces forcible removal by his own generals (like Ayub Khan). The best he can hope for it seems is to seek immunity from future prosecution in return from doing what he had promised he would do 9 years or so ago - play the honest broker in the next elections.

Post 16 – tahmaed32:

Dear tahmed32:

Yes. You make fair points in your post. Thank you.

But the real focus of my post that you might have overlooked was the last line:

I am not sure how CJ’s protests have fundamentally altered any of the socioeconomic dynamics of the country that forms the bedrock for tradition, law and institutions.

Would you kindly elaborate how current events impact or are indicators of socio-economic dynamics of the country? I think (and studies support it) that it is the socioeconomic underpinning that drives cultural and attitudinal changes in a society.

If such indicators of sustainable change are there that I am not much aware of, it will be a pleasant surprise and a much desired reason for optimism.

Kind regards.

All the celebrations and congratulations are justified. This is indeed the first time in Pakistan's history that the judiciary has passed a judgement effectively against the highest authority in the country, and that too a military dictator. So, what's next?

1. The civil society has tasted blood and it is not going to stay quiet now. If Musharraf insists upon getting elected by the Assembly before dissolution or insists upon wearing the uniform, someone is bound to raise the issue in the Court.

2. Musharraf too is probably not too unhappy with the decision. He has no doubt realised that sacking the CJ was a mistake, which had to be corrected. The way in which the govt. withdrew the most serious charges against the CJ even before the court decided shows that it was pretty much prepared for this outcome.

3. Musharraf is probably now putting most, if not all, of his eggs in the Benazir basket. The word on the street is that she has agreed to his remaining President, whether before or after the elections.

So, this phase of military rule is over. But does it mean an end to the cycles of army rule followed by civilians followed by army and so on? I am not so sure. I think that nothing happens in Pakistan without the acquiescence of the public opinion led by the civilian elite. The Court was able to take the decision it did because the successful lawyers' rallies had demonstrated that the army had lost its support. But if the politicians muck up again and another knight in shining arm emerges in the next round, will the court not again comply with the "doctrine of necessity"? Only time will tell!

IMO real change will be brought by the mulla. the "civil" society is too entreched in the corruption to undergo any real change.

ERRR.....

it has given MUSHARRAF the much needed breathing space, in which he can re-collect his forces.

as inspite of the VICTORY, people have lost a much needed rallying point.

institutional changes, with the verdict itself being the first and most fundamental institutional change (i.e. the all important change in Governance) that has already taken place.

No longer can Musharraf hope to issue orders at will without being challenged by a constitutional co-equal body that has the additional strength of legitimacy and political support from the people !!

The question therefore is: Will this change prove lasting? there is every reason to hope that it will. And if it does, then this will prove to be Pakistan's equivalent of the Glorious Revolution of 1688 in England (when the autocrat was forced to accept the Bill of Rights, thus paving the way for UK to become a society ruled by laws rather than by autocrats).

It is now universally recognized that a proper Governance framework is key to further institutional development. So, if this verdict proves lasting, there is indeed reason to celebrate. Even if it takes many more years before the ill effects of dictatorships (religious extremism, dysfunctional ordinances, political uncertainty) as well as the on-going task of modernizing the public sector.

Institutional Change, with the Verdict itself the first and most fundamental institutional change (i.e. the all important change in Governance) that has already taken place.

No longer can Musharraf hope to issue orders at will without being challenged by a constitutional co-equal body that has the additional strength of legitimacy and political support from the people !!

The question therefore is: Will this change prove lasting? there is every reason to hope that it will. And if it does, then this will prove to be Pakistan's equivalent of the Glorious Revolution of 1688 in England (when the autocrat was forced to accept the Bill of Rights, thus paving the way for UK to become a society ruled by laws rather than by autocrats).

It is now universally recognized that a proper Governance framework is key to further institutional development. So, if this verdict proves lasting, there is indeed reason to celebrate. Even if it takes many more years before the ill effects of dictatorships (religious extremism, dysfunctional ordinances, political uncertainty) as well as the on-going task of modernizing the public sector.

Tahir Qazi #18 (Please ignore my response #22 and #23 which I messed up, and replace it with this post)

Your post #18 implies the following sequence of cause and effect:

Verdict LEADS TO Socio-Economic Change LEADS TO Institutional Change.

The proper sequence in my view is as follows:

Socio-Economic Change LEADS TO Institutional Change.

And the Verdict itself is the first and most fundamental institutional change (i.e. the all important change in Governance) that has already taken place. And the mere fact that even this verdict would not have meant anything without the outpouring of popular support for the Chief Justice, indicates that the Socio-Economic milieu (reflecting a large middle class, an increasingly pluralistic society, a population used to earning its living through honest work and possessing many admirable qualities like hospitality, no real problems of alcoholism that afflict many troubled societies like Russia or many third world countries like Mexico as I have seen first hand) of Pakistan is in fact much healthier than many people give it credit.

No longer can Musharraf hope to issue orders at will without being challenged by a constitutional co-equal body that has the additional strength of legitimacy and political support from the people !!

The question therefore is: Will this change prove lasting? there is every reason to hope that it will. And if it does, then this will prove to be Pakistan's equivalent of the Glorious Revolution of 1688 in England (when the autocrat was forced to accept the Bill of Rights, thus paving the way for UK to become a society ruled by laws rather than by autocrats).

It is now universally recognized that a proper Governance framework is key to further institutional development. So, if this verdict proves lasting, there is indeed reason to celebrate. Even if it takes many more years before the ill effects of dictatorships (religious extremism, dysfunctional ordinances, political uncertainty) as well as the on-going task of modernizing the public sector.

Re: # 21 what forces? what breathing space?

Re: # 19 "Only time will tell"

Inshallah!! :-)

tahmed mian,

....... i never said that this is not a good thing but that it might be a phyrric victory

Re: # 27 hamid braader: please dont use the word "pyrrhic" inappropriately. While 42 lives were lost on May 12 on the road to this Verdict, the term pyrrhic implies bloodshed at a much larger scale.

Perhaps you meant "ephemeral"?? (which you are permitted to do if you enjoy being pessimistic).

Re: Post 24

Dear tahmed32:

I agree that change is not a sudden event it is a process that take time. Lets hope things will change and wait to see what survives the test of time. Good talking to you. Thanks a lot.

Regards.

tahmed,

.... sorry, i didn't quite say why this might be a phyrric victory ...

...... i think the mullahs, who have jumped on the cj's bandwagon, will gain the most from this 'victory' .... while the rest of the politicians squabble over what to do next, the mullahs will throw the rotten carcasses from the lal masjid and other fresh bodies from the daily suicide bommbings on to this bandwagon and run off with it ...... liaqat baloch was the only politician on join in the clebrations, and fazloo and qazi hussain ahmed were on the talk show circuit claiming it to be a victory for allah and his dead virgins .......

....... in any case, there is no reason not to celebrate - it is step in the right direction even though the future is still quite uncertain .........

Re: # 25


This CJ Issue was the rallying point, the only rallying point , where most of the politial parties were in agreement.

... on the Karachi Massacres, and Jamia Hafsa , the two OTHER current HOT issues , there is all but lip service.

Musharraf was under increasing pressure , from all around, since this CJ Issue, One after One, event were mounting pressure on him.

One this CJ issue has reached its logical conclusion, and Musharraf , conceding defeat..... it has taken the STEAM off...
...the Pro Musharraff and anti-Musharraff forces, that were at logger heads now, do not have any other battle grounds Now....
except the 'Uniform Issue '

....and with conceding defeat of this CJ front, Musharraff is now out of pressure, at least for the time being.

hamidm2 mian#: "with the federal sharia court, the council for islamic ideology and the special terrorism courts in place it is not really clear - at least to me - how much weight the cj actually carries inspite of his fine moustache ......"

....all courts in pakistan are under the supreme court.....the federal shariah court just checks if laws are inline with islam.....appeals against its decisions to go to a bench of the supreme court.....it cannot do anything to the cj....council of islamic ideology is not a court.....i don't think there are any special terrorism courts operating now......only nab courts.....both these courts are two levels below the supreme court....i.e. one level below the high court.....

the chief justice sits above all of these courts......

rest assured if the chief of army staff has had to back down, then i doubt anyone else will be able to touch the cj or touch the supreme court.....the shariah courts and the councils of ideologies and nabs etc. are all created by the coas.......

dost-mittar #19: "Musharraf too is probably not too unhappy with the decision. He has no doubt realised that sacking the CJ was a mistake, which had to be corrected."

......musharraf and the rest of the army is probably in a state of shock, by what has happened......you need to understand the mindse of the coas in pakistan....

......the pakistani military, like all militaries, has a full-fledged judiciary internal to the military with its equivalent of a chief justice (JAG)....however, this whole judicial system is under the coas.....even though it is supposed to be independent.......hence to a coas, a judge is nothing much.....perhaps a colonel or brigadier, he can throw around......this is why the army always treats judges with contempt......

.......the judges never had the balls to stand up to the army....i am not sure why......this time, around, two things were different.....one the lawyers stuck together and two the media brought everything to the public......

musharraf and his corps commanders are in uncharted waters.....things have gone totally against standard procedures of a coup......rest assured they are not happy....

.......this could set into motin a series of steps that could result, theoretically, in musharraf getting hanged....a case is in the supreme court, already, against musharraf getting re-elected....it is an open and shut case.....then there will be one against his uniform......open and shut......he is nothing, politically, without his uniform........at which point, there may be one of treason against him, against the coup......again open and shut.......the punishment for a coup is death....

the reason no one ever got the death penalty is that every coup maker before he takes off his uniform gets the assembly to officially declare all his actions legal......that is also standard procedure of a coup......the judiciary is already intimidated and doesn't speak....

now musharraf is stuck......totally dependent on benazir.....if she works with him, he can get an amendment passed, forgiving his coup sins.......in return he forgives her corruption sins.......

.......if she doesn't work with him, musharraf can neither get re-elected, nor keep his uniform, nor fight a legal battle against his coup......

it will be interesting to see what the cj does now......he is, at the moment, hands down the most powerful man in the country.......not only does he have legal power (which he is supposed to have).......the political parties are all behind him (when was the last time they were all behind him)......and literally every pakistani (other than musharraf and ahmedmadani) are behind him........

i wonder if the cj will allow musharraf to drop the corruption cases against bb.......they were in nab courts and nab comes under a serving lt. gen!.....amazing but true.....however the cj could re-start them.......

totally uncharted waters for pakistan and the army.....

i am quite sure the corps commanders are meeting, desparately, to figure out what to do.......this decision has gone against the script, they were taught in military academies.....

musharraf totally underestimated the status of chief justice, within the civil society.......

The euphoria is understandable. This is perhaps the first ‘victory’ Pakistani civilian society has had against the military in a long- long while. (The last being in 1971.)
However, things are never simple and straightforward in Pakistan. The army controls the society and has an iron grip over the state affairs. The CJ does not have a history of being a principled Justice and clearly some of his shenanigans that have come to fore, reflect that. He understands the power game in Pakistan much better than many of his former colleagues that perished after disagreeing with the army.

I am not sure if he is the person who would usher in an era of judicial independence in Pakistan. His notion of independence may be just grabbing more power by harassing and threatening the administration for his own or for his colleagues’ ambitions.

There will soon be a civilian government in Pakistan but as someone mentioned, that may just be a stop-gap arrangement. Imo, the new Supreme Court will become another power broker that a civilian government will have to deal with. The civilian governments after the 80s have constantly faced harassment from the army and had to look over their shoulders for every decision. Many of the civilian governments’ decisions were overridden or shot down by the army regularly. The bitterness against the army displayed by an army protégé like Nawaz Sharif shows the humiliation that he must have gone through when he was the PM. We know that Benazir used to cry in cabinet meetings when her appointed President and cabinet members refused to listen or sometimes ridiculed her because they knew she had no powers.

Generals regularly refused to visit the PM house for meetings and often forced the PMs to come to the COAS office for discussions or met at neutral offices. There were deep differences between Mush and Nawaz and Mush avoided saluting the PM on many occasions.

Now the civilians will have an activist Supreme Court and a CJ who would always threaten to override the civilian government in the apex court adding more hurdles in the way of a successful civilian government in Pakistan. And who is to say that the same judges will not collide with the army behind the scenes to keep the civilian governments in control.

The duty of an independent judiciary is to make sure that governments follow the law but when a judiciary attempts to interfere in the day to day running of the government, that judiciary will become a menace to the society and eventually will play in the hands of the non democratic forces. The current CJ who is short on judicial experience and is known sycophantic is bad news for the future of civilian set ups in Pakistan.

Pakistan does not have any system of checks and balances that mean whosoever gains the upper hand in the bare knuckle palatial fights in Islamabad will rule the roost.

This is a victory because most of the support cast fails to see the real actors of this game of oneupmanship.

Creating another power block in countries like Pakistan is fraught with many dangers.

Romair:

This is a great opportunity to re-engineer Pakistani institutions. Pakistanis in their euphoria may be missing that for whatever reason, Musharraff "referred", he could have employed other means. He could have responded to agitation that ensued, differently. There are so many things that could have been differently, and then there are some Pakistanis (atleast one for sure) here, who have gone to the extend of spelling out a conspiracy to the U.S. involvement to destablize Musharraff. As if the man who knows would be killed would not act.

Now more than ever, I believe that Musharraff is the man for the moment for Pakistan. No other Pakistani, including Mian Nawaz, respected and accepted a democratic institution.

I had always said to you, the best would be to have CJP restored, and Musharraff be kept (I should say elected) as President. He knows his limits, he will ensure fair elections othewise he has a boss in Supreme Court, and proabbly in Election Commission to "refer" to Supreme Court.
Pakistan needs him to tackle jihadists, and move toward moderation / enlightenment.

I do not see anything wrong, if the U.S. supports these efforts to rebuild/reengineer the nation. This model, with this man is more likely to succeed than "bombing to stone age" approach it has taken in Iraq.

I support Musharraff, it is only sensible thing to do at this stage of unfinished tasks. People already won.

bulleya#33:

I agree that Pakistan is in unchartered waters. I do not think that Musharraf is happy, but he must be relieved. Imagine what would have happened if the Court had upheld the charges against the CJ: no one would have believed that the court had acted indpendently - even Americans were getting hesitant in their support of the unpopular dictator - and the demonstrations in the streets would have continued with even greater anger and vigour. Musharraf would have become a liability and there might have been an internal revolt among the Corps Commander. Under these circumstances, Musharraf was better off with putting an end to this issue, which he has.

Re: # 34

HP Sahib:

You indeed have the corniest way of looking at things. I know, I sued the word corniest - if you find it offensive, I appologize.

You can never see a silver lining, and therefore, must have been a marxist leftist in previous or current incarnation.

Too many forces are in place to reform and reengineer Pakistan. Get them into play, you will forget historical analysis after analysis. I will take bets with you to buy you the dinner in San Francisco, if Pakistan does not move toward its future as I am suggesting in previous posting to Romair.

Let me repost what I had posted on another thread regarding the CJ verdict:

-------------------
I had predicted long before today's decision restoring the CJ to his office, that this crisis, manufactured by the Americans, using the Pakistan Army in order to punish Musharraf, will lead to its logical end, i.e. a decision against Musharraf. The fools among the people will say that this is a historic moment for Pakistan, something is changing and the Army is losing its authority. Wrong answer, and utopian dreams. The Army is still in charge, Musharraf is losing authority (two different things), because he has lost American support (the main difference between the two).

Don't interpret me wrong. I am not for Musharraf, the sob will get what he deserves soon but these adjustments by the Americans only harm Pakistan and Pakistanis and do not benefit it. The same judiciary that has before always legitimized military rule in Pakistan, cannot change overnight because a CJ took some meds that enhanced the size of his b****. No that is not the case, without military backing this crisis wasn't possible, without military backing this decision was not possible. Now the poor bas**** Musharraf, like I said earlier is running helter skelter like a trapped mouse, one crisis after another. America is leaving no options open for him except for his resignation and a quick sub lease of the Mian's summer home in Saudi Arabia, or a hellfire, with the finger prints of a Mullah, aimed right for his a$$. He knows it, he is scared but he is also stupid, he thinks that somehow he will manage to escape from it all, keep the uniform and keep the presidency and redevelop his relationship with the Americans.....wont happen...

Dear All:
First and foremost I must acknowledge the profuse & almost palpably euphoric reaction from my Hindian friends. For the first time on CHOWK one can feel that when it comes to JUSTICE in the world all human hearts beat in unison.

This also proves that all religios biases are prfunctory and are created by the men themselves..the Evil men, the satan-inspired men, the raakhhishes-inspired men..of whatever stripes, spots, or polka-dots.
____________________________________________________________

Thi s is the first bIG victory for Pakistan..a greater achievement than the Nuclear Bomb. Here today Pakistan has recovered from the cancer which was certainly did not seem benign.

Here is the story of the ONSET of the tumor because of which Pakistan was suuffering the bouts of Military rule and obtained legal sanction for their criminal acts & uniformed-terrorism.

A very interesting aspect in this episode was that MAULVI Tamizzuddin, the Speaker, wore a burqua and rushed to the Assermbly in a Pedal-rickshaw th stop the dissolving of the
Parliament.

_THIS, here , was the ROOT of the Tumor
____________________________________________________________
In the famous Maulvi Tamizuddin Khan vs. The Federation of Pakistan case, the petitioner challenged the unconstitutional dissolution of Pakistan’s First Constituent Assembly by Governor General Ghulam Mohammad (photo to the right). The then Chief Justice of Pakistan, Justice Mohammad Munir gave a landmark verdict that changed the course of Pakistan’s History - perhaps forever.

Prior to his verdict and also subsequent to that, Justice Munir noted that the issue before the court was not merely a legal issue, it was in fact a political one. He suggested that such issues may be best resolved in the political sphere through negotiation and compromise. In saying so, Justice Munir was especially concerned about the inability of the Court to enforce a decision. The court, he noted, does not have any instrument of power to enforce its ruling if it decides to side with the petitioner (Maulvi Tamizuddin Khan). Indeed, the government - with all the instruments of power at its disposal - can easily ignore the court’s ruling thus putting the case back to where it belonged - in the domain of the people and their representatives. Of course, Justice Munir, knowing fully that an anti-government ruling would be entirely ignored, ultimately sided with the Government thus throwing the country into its worst constitutional crisis since its creation. The country has never forgiven him for doing so,
___________________________________________________________

From Chief Justice Akhlaaque onwards the list is indeed long
of EVERY chief justice of Pakistan who was summoned by these westoxicated Cantonment canines & forced to resign. Chief Justice Saeed-ul-Zaman Siddiqui was the most recent casualty before the Uniformed & US-loving thhuGG decided top do the same with Iftikhar Chaudhry. ( what a name indeed! Iftikhar..the one with PRIDE, Ghairatmand).

Let me thank my hindian friends again. ..the list is long so I hope this should suffice.

""Tameez-i rahbar-O-rehzan karo naa aaj kay din
HUr ikk sey haath milaaO, kay jashn kaa din hai"
___________________________________________________________

Soon we will get the GOOD NEWS from tuurkee as well. The Secularoons theere wiill be given a resounding chapairR and let us pray the all over muslim nations the secularoons & murtadoons are sent where they belong..underground or up in smoke!

Massaddi Mian should keep in himeself busy with theoretical religio-social analysis. He can apply Godel's theorem, and also consider applying Esher's paintings to visualize impossibilities.

Reality is too imperfect, Massaddi Sahib, and is certainly not limited to one book of perfection and finality. Therefore, may not be proven or accepted as the final or absolutel truth.

IMO the path towards democracy is not linear. The restoration of the CJ has strengthened the judiciary. The peaceful protest of the lawyers and their success has boosted the confidence of a section of the population in a certain 'mode' of protest. This is a positive step towards democracy. The next step is to ensure a fair election. Not easy, but possible. A fair election, even if the fundoos come to power, is of utmost importance. IMO the fundoos comming to power may be quite good for Pakistan (sorry hamid) for I believe that Pakistan is neither Algeria nor Iraq.

#35 Posted by anil on July 21, 2007 12:20:16 pm

“Now more than ever, I believe that Musharraff is the man for the moment for Pakistan.”
“support Musharraff, it is only sensible thing to do at this stage of unfinished tasks. People already won.”

Anyone posting this sure knows what the word corny means.

The problem with you anil is that you don’t know squat about Pakistan and then continue writing gems in post after post.
I would recommend you don’t read my posts; they are well above your political understanding and knowledge.

Better still you should only debate with Romair who is probably your counterpart in political acumen.
Any one who can write this has to be a political genius at par with you.

#2 Posted by bulleya on July 21, 2007 12:42:14 am
“1. ....the army is powerful, not because it has guns, but, because its leadership always remains united behind its coas, regardless of circumstances”
“2. ....the civilian institutions are weak in front of the army, because the army can, always, successfully split them up....anytime any civilian institution sticks together - specifically political leaders or judiciary - they will dominate the army.....”

Heed my advice….

Peas of a pod….

HP Sahib:

You have an offer of my bet. Best is let us heed to time, and see how it all turns out. It is not politics that one wishes, but forces, by that I mean "tail (oil) ki dhar", HP sahib.

I will heed to your advice.

dost-mittar/anil/hp#: ....i have yet to meet anyone on this site, who understands the military in pakistan...i suppose it is understandable since barely anyone on this site has spend time in the pakistani military.....considering the fact that i have, perhaps i know a tad bit more about it than others.......

......you can look at my comments for the past many years on this site.....i always stated that the moment, either the judiciary or the politicians rise, in unison, against the army, it will back off......it is not guns that keep the army in power.....it is the fact that it remains united and can break the leadership of other groups....

......musharraf has been brought down, by a bar association....imagine.....a group of a few thousand lawayers, with no guns, no bullets, have put an army of 500k in the docket....

.....i was qutie clear this is what would happen.....

musharraf is not the best thing for pakistan.......i think he has a fan following amongst a small group, who wants religiously inclined groups eliminated, through govt. attacks......

.......however, eight years is too long a time, even for a successful dictator, much less for one who is on his last legs.....

......i think musharraf was a tolerable necessity for the first three years......however, as i have always said, he should have left, and would have gone down as a hero.....

........it is too detailed for me to explain how a senior army officer views the civilian society, here.......it is also too detailed for me to explain, how deeply entrenched the army is in pakistan's corporate sector......

.......however, musharraf is not only representing himself....if he goes, and the army gets pushed back, it will put an end to the largest corporate enterprise in pakistan.......which will result in a lot of senior military officers losing, literally, crores of ruppees....

the current struggle actually has nothing to do with the cj....he may be the biggest crook in the world.......what is important is that civil society - middle class lawyers and media folks - across all provinces of pakistan, supported by unknown awam have forced a change in govt.......

this is unprecendented......it has never happened before, either against a military or a civilian govt.......now, the next time any ruler - civilian or military - will have to think twice before taking actions.....that in itself, is a big step.......the cj is just the person who happened to be there......

......musharraf needs to leave now......after his first three years, he did severe damage in a lot of places......specifically to the judiciary......he has jailed people without crimes.........quite a few have disappeared because the americans asked him to......he has pushed the military into literally every civilian job, etc......

......had he left after three years, bb and nawaz would not have re-appeared.....however, now they will be back......but with a more powerful legal fraternity and media, they will have some checks on them.......

musharraf, now, only has one ally........the us establishment.........maybe it can keep him in power, by facilitating benazir.......thereby doing more damage to pakistan........but i think it will be difficult......

pakistan, as i said, is in uncharted waters........hard to tell what will happen......as such an event has never occurred before......in fact, i cannot think of any country in the world, where the civil society rose up for a cj.....

this and the earthquake reaction are two points, where we have seen civil society rise up, without the need of any leadership.......

now if pakistan can just un-align itself with us foreign policy.......

long , but could be worth it for those who have lapsed memories or who were never taught the stuff in Ba Ba blacksheep scholls & who graduated from the Zero( "O") level goraa-Maashter programmes
__________________________________________________________
THe story of the FIRST COUP in Pakistan:

The first coup was NOT by the Cantonment Kuttaaas but by the COLONY kuttaaas (barRvaaCRATS).

It is the curse of The BRitto-Babboons's common law which was/is at the root of tyhe problem. It is nothing but a termite colony planted in the foundation of the bedrock of ISLAM because of which the kanjarRoons walk around Paak land with impunity.
___________________________________________________________



Th e Coup…
The removal of the Constituent Assembly put Pakistan into yet another constitutional crisis. This was an entity entrusted, under the terms of the Independence of India Act of 1947, by the King of England to form the constitution of the Pakistani pk3-kai.jpgdominion. With the constituent assembly now gone, the question arose as to who was to carry forward the task of constitution-making in Pakistan? Could a new constituent assembly be legitimately elected to replace the older one? What would be the “ground-rules” for electing such an assembly? Who would set those rules and whether they would be acceptable to all parties?
In the case of the old Constituent Assembly—imperfect as it was—the ground rules were set by the authority of the King of England and were deemed to be equally biased towards all parties. With the two largest provinces already at loggerheads with each other and the smaller provinces complaining about the domination of the larger ones, it would have been difficult to agree upon the ground rules of electing a new constituent assembly in a manner that would not be perceived as biased at its very onset. Even if such an assembly were to get elected and accepted by all parties, where would it start its work? How much of the work of the older Constituent Assembly could it draw upon?


Even more urgent than the formation and representation within the new Constituent Assembly was that of forming a new ministry at the center. Having made a virtual prisoner in the Prime Minister House and having lost the support of the Muslim League as well—who elected Chaudhary Mohammad Ali as its leader—Mohammad Ali Bogra resigned on August 7, 1955. The political machinery—headed by none other than the ailing Governor General himself—instantly went into the all-too-familiar routine of trying to patch together a coalition that could serve its interests. In fact, even before this process could complete, Governor General Ghulam Mohmmad who has been ailing with multiple conditions for a fairly long time took a leave of absence in Oct. 1955 (Ghulam Mohammad: Wikipedia, 2007). He was replace by acting-Governor General Iskander Mirza—another army-man turned bureaucrat who became the first Defense Secretary of Pakistan—who conveniently disposed off his boss to take on the reigns of the country.
Sayeed (1960, p. 424) notes that there were two inter-related issues at stake here, namely, who would be the new prime minister and with which party could the Muslim League coalesce with to form the new Ministry? One prominent opinion at that time was that Huseyn Shaheed Suharwardy of the Awami League Party should become the new Prime Minister. Suharwardy was believed to be one of the more visionary leaders from East Pakistan who rose above the parochial provincialism and could have checked the extreme demands for provincial autonomy in the East. Suharwardy was also a strong leader—a credential that did not go well with the leadership in West Pakistan, especially the Governor General Iskander Mirza who saw a strong Prime Minister as a threat to his own power. Ultimately the choice fell on Chaudhari Mohammad Ali—the recently elected leader of Muslim League—who was to lead with a coalition of the Muslim League with United Front of East Pakistan.
Before we look at Pakistan under Iskander Mirza and Chaudhary Mohammad Ali, we will turn to another very important episode in Pakistan’s such a short existence—one that would change the course of the country for a long time to come—and set legal precedents that would literally cause the death of democracy in Pakistan. Allen McGrath, in “The Destruction of Pakistan’s Democracy” describes the circumstances of the time:
“Thus far Ghulam Mohammad had carried out a coup which was remarkably successful. Part of this success was due to the fact that what he accomplished was not recognized as a coup. Yet he had captured the office of the Prime Minister by forcing Nazimuddin out of office, and he had dismissed the Assembly with the public approval of Bogra, his handpicked successor to Nazimuddin. One man, the Governor-General, now controlled the government. When Tamizuddin Khan announced that he would raise in Court the question of Governor General’s power, Ghulam Mohmmad was faced with the first challenge…” (McGrath, 1996, p. 155)
Indeed, this was the case filed in the Central Court in Sindh (and later the Federal Court in Karachi) by Maulvi Tamizuddin Khan—the President of the now-defunct Constituent Assembly of Pakistan—against the state of Pakistan that signified the only worthwhile resistance against the fast emerging dictatorial rule in Pakistan.
Maulvi Tamizuddin Khan Challenges the Dissolution

Maulvi Tamizuddin Khan—as the second President of the Constituent Assembly (after Jinnah himself)—was a man of “high repute and sincere convictions (Khan, 2001, p. 85). While not a bold man, he nevertheless was willing to start a lonely campaign against a powerful Governor-General who had the coercive forces and financial resources of the state at his disposal (McGrath, 1996, p.156). On 8th November 1954, Tamizuddin Khan challenged the proclamation by Governor General Ghulam Mohammad in the Central Court of Sindh claiming it to be “unconstitutional, illegal, ultra vires (i.e. beyond legal powers), without jurisdiction, inoperative, and void” (Khan, 2001, p.85). He requested that writs be issued against the Governor-General and the recently installed ministers in his cabinet. If granted, the writs would have restrained the Governor General from interfering in the affairs of the Constituent Assembly.
pk3-tameez.jpgTamizuddin Khan, in his petition, also claimed that Governor-General’s proclamation that the constitution-making process had broken down, was not true and that the Constituent Assembly was in fact a sovereign body and that there existed no provision in the constitution which would allow the Governor General to dissolve the Assembly (McGrath, 1996, p. 156). The filing of the petition itself amply represented the high-drama that this singular act of defiance for the all-powerful Governor General represented in the circumstances of that time.
Tamizuddin Khan and his lawyers had suspected that the Governor General would use the police and all related machinery at his disposal to stop them from filing the petition in the court. On the morning of the filing, a junior attorney in the law offices of S. S. Pirzada, acting as a decoy, began his journey towards the Court building. Simultaneously, another attorney, carrying the actual petition, and dressed in a fully covered burqa, left the offices from the backdoor towards the Court. The decoy was intercepted by the police and arrested. The burqa clad associate managed to reach the Courts and filed the petition with the Registrar. S. S. Pirzada himself reached the court in a diplomat’s car and retired to the Court’s law library where they thought they would be safe from the police until the case was called to the docket (McGrath, 1996, p.158). Fully knowing the importance of the case, the Chief Justice Sir George Constantine placed the matter on the Court’s calendar for the same day.
Thus began the public trial on the constitutionality of Governor-General’s power to dismiss the first Constituent Assembly of Pakistan.
High profile foreign lawyers were retained from both sides to fight the case. D. M. Pritt—a London Barrister who had represented clients on causes involving government action across the British Commonwealth—was engaged by the Tamizuddin Khan and the Assembly. The Governor General retained Sir Ivor Jennings—a noted British Constitutional lawyer—who had worked on the Pakistani Constitution prior to the dissolution of the Assembly, as the advisor on litigation. The government is said to have paid a hefty sum of money—as much as seven times the annual salary of the Chief Justice of Pakistan—as retainer to Sir Jennings (McGrath, 1996, p.160). With this impeccable credentials and insider view—having helped write the first constitution that the Assembly was deprived of passing—Sir Jennings proved to be just the ideal person to advocate on the Government’s behalf.
pk3-IvorJennings.jpgJennings began building his case by drawing upon—in addition to the two pieces of legislation directly relevant to Pakistan, namely, the Government of India Act of 1935, and Indian Independence Act of 1947—British constitutional history and the English Common Law. On the issue of whether or not the Governor General had the power to summon a new Constituent Assembly, he opined that since Pakistan was still a dominion—a status that only the Constituent Assembly could have changed through the promulgation of the Constitution—the British Crown’s prerogatives continued to exist in Pakistan and can be exercised through its agent, the Governor General. He suggested that it was nor merely in the power of the Queen—and, through her, the Governor General—to summon another Assembly but it was her duty to do so (McGrath, 1996, p. 165).

Despite his utmost effort, however, Jennings found it difficult to justify—from a legal standpoint—how the Governor General could have dissolved the Constituent Assembly in the first place. No provision in any constitution or law allowed for such a possibility. He developed a different argument to justify that action. The Governor-General, he argued, was required to assent to every law that was passed by the Constituent Assembly. The Assembly had, in the past, legislated to increase its membership without seeking the assent of the Governor General and so, by changing composition, Jennings argued, the Constituent Assembly had ceased to exist as the body that was ordained to write the constitution. Jennings’ line of defense—although clever—had significant weaknesses. In the absence of any other alternative, however, Jennings decided to put it to test.
The full bench of the Chief Court of Sindh was assembled to hear the case. By denying the government’s attempt to consider the issue of Governor General’s right to assent to every piece of legislation, the court weakened the strongest argument in the Government’s case at the very onset. The Government mainly relied on the prerogative of the Crown to vest the Governor General with the power to dissolve the Assembly. After the oral arguments, the Chief Court unanimously ruled in the favor of Maulvi Tamizuddin Khan.
The Court disallowed the motion that the Governor General’s assent was necessary on every piece of legislation. It also disallowed the notion that the Grown held any prerogative in Pakistan and noted that the Constituent Assembly was indeed the sovereign that did not require any other sovereign’s intervention to legitimize its work. It also noted that the Indian Independence Act of 1947 did not contain any provision to dissolve the assembly. “The right to dissolve the assembly”, it was observed, “had ceased to be a prerogative in England and it was difficult to hold that the prerogative which had ceased in England was revived in Pakistan after 1947” (Khan, 2001, p. 85).
Justice Munir on Federation of Pakistan vs. Maulvi Tamizuddin Khan
An appeal on the Chief Court of Sindh’s opinion was filed by the Government in Federal Court in Rawalpindi. The Government was represented by Sir Edward Diplock Q. C. (later Lord Diplock) and advised by Sir Ivor Jennings. Maulvi Tamizuddin Khan and the Assembly was represented by I. I. Chundrigar. The petitioner could not engage Pritt because of their inability to pay even his expenses (Pritt had offered to work pro-bono) (McGrath, 1996, p. 175). Maulvi Tamizuddin Khan was a man of meager means and having lost his income as the President of the Assembly had little to support the costly litigation. As this battle—“the greatest ever fought in legal history”—went underway, the Federal Court was headed by Chief Justice Mohammad Munir—a man of impeccable legal talents and yet—who would later receive much infamy for several of the most crucial decisions in Pakistan’s early legal history.

The Government’s argument was virtually the same as presented before the Chief Court of Sindh. Jennings assured the Governor General that there was nothing wrong with his argument as long as it was “considered strictly as a legal question” (McGrath, 1996, p. 174). The Governor-General, on the other hand, was willing to go with the decision of the Court as long as it was in his favor. In a memo to the Governor General, Jennings wrote:
“…There is a six-to-four chance of getting a favorable decision but it would not be very surprising if he decision was against the Government. The possibility has been foreseen and the necessary drafts have been prepared to carry out His Excellency’s policies whatever the decision might be. All the documents needed have been drafted and they will be ready for immediate issue once the decision of the Federal Court is known whether it is for or against the Federation.”
The Governor-General was willing to impose emergency in the country should the Federal Court uphold the decision of the Sindh Chief Court. That, as it turned out, was not needed.
With the majority of four-to-one, the Federal Court ruled in the favor of the Governor General by over-turned the ruling by the Sindh Chief Court. In doing so, the Federal Court stayed away from the real issue of constitutionality of the Governor General’s power to dissolve the Constituent Assembly. Instead, it ruled over a technical point that dealt with the jurisdiction of the Sindh Chief Court in hearing Tamizuddin Khan’s petition in the first place. Chief Justice Munir who is sometimes accused of colluding with the Government—and receiving cryptic messages from the Governor General (Khan, 2001, p. 88)—wrote the majority opinion that, while handing the victory to the Governor General, shook the state of Pakistan by its very foundations.
Munir, like Jennings, built his argument on the notion that Pakistan, although an independent dominion, was still a part of the British Commonwealth and hence all British laws (if not expressly indicated otherwise in the Indian Independence Act) and judicial traditions and customs applied. “It does not make the slightest difference if the Queen is called the Queen of Pakistan or the Head of the Commonwealth of which Pakistan is a member” , noted the judgment (McGrath, 1996, p. 180). Every public position, including that of the Governor-General, Commander-in-Chiefs, and Judges were made in the name of the Queen and, “even the court writs which were petitioned for by Tamizuddin Khan would bear the Royal Court of Arms”. (ibid).

The necessity of the Governor-General’s assent to all legislation, as required by the Indian Independence Act, was a requirement that could not be set aside. The constitutional practice in Pakistan, adopted by Jinnah and continued by every Governor-General since, of not requiring that assent did not matter. Hence, Munir concluded, not only was the law that gave the Sindh Chief Court the jurisdiction to issue writs, did not exist but also every piece of legislation passed by the Constituent Assembly since independence and not having received express written assent of the Governor-General was null-and-void. The only dissenting Justice was Justice A. R. Cornelius who wrote the dissenting opinion questioning every piece of argument the majority used to create its opinion.
Justice Munir’s decision in the Federation of Pakistan vs. Maulvi Tamizuddin Khan “in insisting on a formality (Governor-General’s assent) threw the nation into a chaos” (McGrath, 1996, p. 186). Its implications were much more far-reaching than the present case under-consideration for, in a single sweep of pen, it nullified seven years worth of legislation by the Constituent Assembly—as many as forty six Acts on the statute books in all—thus creating a legal vacuum for the state (Khan, 2001, p. 89). Justice Munir has, for the rest of his life, remain defensive and apologetic about this judgment noting that “situations such as these are not for the court to deal with…” and insisting that, lacking the ability to enforce, had the court passed a judgment against the government it would not have been carried out anyway.
To be fair, Munir had insisted before the trial went underway that this case pertained to a political rather than a legal question (he was only partly right!) and that political questions like these must be addressed in political realm through negotiation. He had even tried to broker a deal between the plaintiff and the representatives of the defendant but the latter refused to accept it (McGrath, 1996, p.x). Munir also knew fully well that the judgment he was about to pass is not going to go very well with his fellow-country who would find it shocking that having considered themselves citizens of an independent country for seven long years—and having paid such a heavy price for that independence—they still were, legally, British subjects. A. R. Cornelius, for instance, dissented with the majority for doing otherwise, on the grounds being proposed, would have been “an insult to the independence of Pakistan”. (McGrath, 1996, p.185).

In his book, Highways and Byways, Justice Munir recalls the quagmire that his countrymen faced at the moment:
“The whole attention of the country was revitted on the litigation before the Federal Court which instead of going back to the Quran and Sunnah was going back to England, to the days of Bracton and Lord Mansfield, and was engaged in expounding the traditions of democracy and the Crown’s prerogative in the British Colonies, possessions, and dominions.”
History has found Munir to be errant in that he is accused of ultimately bending over backwards to find a lacuna that could have enabled his friend—the Governor-General—to win the case (Khan, 2001, p.89). Hamid Khan, in his Constitutional and Political History of Pakistan notes:
“It was Justice Munir’s duty to apply the law and to decide correctly regardless of the consequences. The issuance of the writ was his province and not its enforcement. Had Chief Justice [John] Marshall [of United States] been inhibited by considerations like these in issuing the writ in Marbury vs. Madison, the constitutional history of the United States would have been quite different. It is the bold decisions of courts that set the law on the right course. A timid and spineless judiciary leads to a constitutional disaster.” (Khan, 2001, p.89)
A constitutional disaster it was for it still haunts the country after more than five decades. Justice Munir achieved infamy for causing irreparable damage to not only the institution of democratic government in Pakistan but also the judiciary itself. Maulvi Tamizuddin Khan—as the last man standing—is remembered with much reverence by a country that has honored him by naming roads in major cities after him. Such respect, however, is not awarded to Ghulam Mohammad who died a few months later in 1956 leaving behind a country not only without a constitution but also in its worst politico-constitutional crisis since birth.

I had read somewhere, very recently, that the dictator had said that he would seek re-election through the present assembly. If so, then: (a) is there is a basis to challenge the proposal in the courts/election commission? (b) if there is a basis then will such a challenge come forth? (c) will there be parallel public protests? (d) or some version of a, b and c will be brought to play through the issue of the uniform?

Romair:

I am on record here to be among the first one of the non-believers to oppose Military action. I even called it Pakistani Jalianwala Bagh. My support is considering the forces that are pulling apart, and sentiments and not. Indira Gandhi also lost in the Supreme Court, and yet turned out to be one of the most courageous leader of the time for India. She too made a lot and really a lot of enemies, and paid the ultimate price for the leadership.

"Indira Gandhi also lost in the Supreme Court, and yet turned out to be one of the most courageous leader of the time for India."

Courageous in doing what? Fighting Pakistan? Curbing democratic rights? Creating trouble in Punjab, Assam etc and then killing lots of people? Nationalising banks? I would really like to know.

#34 HP

Excellent analysis. This verdict is great for the long term and moves Pakistan in right direction but complicates things for the intermediate term.

Pakistani political chess game is too complicated for outsiders who are used to a normal game with two players/parties with certain rules. Here there are multiple players with their own agendas, many times diametrically opposite to each other. Each player also has his own strengths/rules - street power, mosques and ofcourse the tanks.

On top of all this, Uncle Sam controls, some if not all, players and supports their rules just to make sure that the winner is capable of making good on assigned deliverables.

May God help these players for their own, and others, well being.

#48 GT

"Courageous in doing what? Fighting Pakistan? Curbing democratic rights? Creating trouble in Punjab, Assam etc and then killing lots of people? Nationalising banks? I would really like to know."

You forgot couple of more courageous acts

- building first Sanjay and then Rajiv so that power stays with her family
- building Bhindrawale and then destroying him (and many others) when he went out of control

Need more proof :)

Hamidm #30 So you are now forecasting the future, viz. i think the mullahs, who have jumped on the cj's bandwagon, will gain the most from this 'victory'

:-(

you continue While the rest of the politicians squabble over what to do next, the mullahs will throw the rotten carcasses from the lal masjid and other fresh bodies from the daily suicide bommbings on to this bandwagon and run off with it

I dont get it, but sounds horrible. :-(

You conclude in any case, there is no reason not to celebrate - it is step in the right direction even though the future is still quite uncertain

hmmm...restating this double negative in plain english, I think you are sayhing "Celebrate!!" So, we agree there.

PS: "pyrrhic" is still the wrong word, btw, despite your clarifications. You clearly think this is victory has no legs. Use the word "ephemeral" if you must use a difficult word in your vain attempts to match masadi's intellectual standing. :-)

#34 Posted by HP on July 21, 2007 11:59:40 am

HP:

I read your post after reading Pardesi's reference. I disagree with your last statement:

"Creating another power block in countries like Pakistan is fraught with many dangers."

IMO, more the number of power centers less is the ability to collude. Lesser the ability to collude, lesser is the ability to exercise power.

I guess, you and I differ on the question of how much power a state should have.

I would like to state that I too am wary about the power of the judicial branch of the state. I had mentioned this somewhere in chowk, I think in my ilog, a long time back. In the case of Pakistan, though, this power is just about starting to evolve. Hence, unlike you, I am not very concerned.

re hamid/tahmed

i disagree with hamidm...i used to think so too, i.e that the CJ thing was too linked to the mullah movement to be something i could embrace. But i was wrong. The bad mullah element has clarified things by trying to blow up CJ supporters, its clear that they (the murderers) have left the party, now i am totally unreserved in my glee at what was a great victory not only for pakistanis but for justice and civil society believers everywhere.

#50 Posted by Pardesi on July 21, 2007 1:55:51 pm

Pardesi:

Yes that too. Actually lot of people associate 1971 with the 'bravery' of Indira Gandhi. As Salim Chauhan constantly reminds us, 1971 had less to do with Indira's bravery and more to do with Pakistani 'valor'. To this I would add the Jewish conspiracy ... what with Jacob disregarding command and heading straight for Dacca and then threatning the Tiger with only 7000 stationed outside Dacca. The whole thing really beats me.

cliftonbridge # 53 "i used to think so too, i.e that the CJ thing was too linked to the mullah movement to be something i could embrace."

I would hate to put an abrupt end to your glee, but the mullah movement continues to be instrinsically linked to CJ thing. Unless of course if you dont consider Fazlur Rehman, Liaqut Baloch etc to be mullah enough :)

Secondly PPP, whose people got bombed in Islamabad, has put the blame on ISI and not on mullahs. So perhaps some facts are in order before you have to change your opinion again.

Malik the other story is that the lal muskers were attacking the PPP for showing solidairty with the govt. I think thats more plausible.
I agree that there are likely several overlapping threads, and yes i agree that i probaby still dislike alot of the CJ's supporters ...but when it comes to habeus corpeus for pakistani's even nutcase pakistani's i am on their side (even if they only belive in habeus for themselves and noone else).
Anyway i think the big picture here is that the institutions of civil society ie media and independant judiciary have been strengthened...some mullahs may also shortsightedly applaud this for now but in the long run its us liberals who have really won.

One can never be sure, but the way mushy meekly accepted the "verdict", one has to wonder whether this vote and the "verdict" were manipulated by him. This "verdict" lets the educated classes to declare victory and go home, takes attention away from the Lal mosque, and gives him some breathing space.

Paki "intellectuals" would be celebrating another great victory, the mullahs would have been dealt yet another stalemate.

Who knows, maybe the White house even advised him on this.

:-)

Oh - and this theory would be conclusively proven by the CJ's future verdicts. I think mushy has effectively castrated him by scaring the living $hit out of him before letting him out of the bag - from now on he is going to be more useful to mushu-baba than the islamic "intellectuals".

This is indeed a victory for Pakistan. The judiciary has graduated from being a rubber stamp for the dictators to an independent pillar of the government. However this could not have happened if the public had not come out showing massive support for the CJ. But for this, the CJ would have been thrown in the jail for the trumped up charges.

My only concern is, that was this massive support for the rule of law, or is it that the public was tired of the old Messiah and just looking for another Messiah. Would the people again celebrate the coming of another dictator when they are tire of the politicians.

The CJ too has to understand the he is not a politician but a judge and should show judicial restraint

#52 Posted by GT

I remember reading a column by a leading Pakistani Journalist Irshad Haqqani. He mentioned that he (Irshad) pointed out the seriousness of the CJ issue to the President in a meeting but Mushraf dismissed Irshad’s concerns. Mush at that time seemed more worried about the Jihadist intentions. The CJ was not high on Mush’s list. That was April before the 12th may massacre in Karachi. The seemingly stupid actions by the MQM made no sense at all. Who cared if the CJ partied in Karachi or not? His popularity was never going to translate into a popular movement against the Mush regime. I have mentioned it several times here that without the smaller provinces participation, there is never going to be a popular movement against the army in Pakistan.
Benazir’s attitude also confirmed that the attempt was to confine “the reinstate the CJ” movement to Punjab alone.

The government succeeded but not without the black face it got in Karachi.

As Perdesi(#49 Posted by Pardesi) mentioned there are no two sides of stories in Pakistan. There are plenty of sides and there are several stories and one has to muddle through many layers of vested interests to actually figure out what is taking place in Pakistan. Army has created many small factions with in the society both in political and cultural sense. While the army created the mullah brigade it also encouraged the seemingly secular nationalists in the smaller provinces besides other groups like the MQM or the MMA. The game is to play all these groups against each other and when groups grow in power and start talking back to the army, the army puts them down forcefully.

Sardar Bugti for most of his life was a trusted army lieutenant in Baluchistan. But when he thought he was indispensable, the army violently murdered him. The recent action against the Lal masjid is another example of how brutally army crushed a group that the army itself nurtured over the years. Lal masjid was made an example for the islamists who for the most part are army’s best allies in Pakistan. Bugti murder was a warning to the Baloch and Sindh nationalists, the Lal Masjid action is sure to send some cold shivers down the Islamists spines.

Remember that these lawyers and justices for the most part, get their jobs and rozi roti through the army. The army is allowing them to gain some traction in Pakistani political arena but that does not mean that army cannot or will not pull them back when needed. The lawyers and judges are just one spineless group in the true middle class traditions. They may be happy with this easy victory but when the time comes for a meaningful pro democracy movement, most of them would be found lecturing the politicians from the barrooms.

Mush has outlived his utility and he must go but a big scene has to be created to replace him. He knows he has to go but he will not hand over reins to civilians. His game is to create a situation where only an army general can replace him.
I do agree that a sequence of smaller victories can turn into a tide; however, generating that sequence and turning even the tide in to a real victory in Pakistan is asking a lot.

Getting out of this current mayhem in Pakistan is tied to the next elections and hopefully a peaceful transfer of power, which the army would attempt to prevent as much as it can.

clifton,

"civil society ie media and independant judiciary have been strengthened"

........ i would not break out the ladoos just yet .... have you ever seen the media ?.... aniq ahmed and shahid masood? .... do they appear to be independent ?...... i might not be the brightest bulb on mo's palmtree but as far as i can tell, the media has been 'captured' by the mullahs ..... these mullah's masquerading as 'enlightened maaderates' in suits and some without ties, are much more dangerous than the bearded variety - at least you shoot as soon as you spot a beard ... what do you do when you see a guy in a pin striped suit with a koran in his hand ?

"what do you do when you see a guy in a pin striped suit with a koran in his hand ? "

... sorry tahmed, i didn't mean you ... your koranist movement is about as harmless (and useful) as madonna's kabbala judaism ......... please carry on

No wonder that the Kanjaroon are wetting their pants front & back.

No matter what label is given to the ones who will soon be incharge; one thing is for sure the Pakistan will be be rid of the NaaPaak Ooons...whether by design or by default.

There is no place for the westoxicated scum in Paak Saaf environment.

and the Ba Ba Blacksheep education system has so damaged the brains at the cellular level that it is difficult for them to comprehend that there are Mulla-lawyers, mulla-journalists, mulla-talk show hosts , mullah doctors...In fact mullah just like in USA and Europe belong to the highest professional category...

It is good that the Kanjaroons will be caught sleeping at the switch..Is it a surprise that without atop the western danda they are unable to perform their twirl, swirl & whirrl.

haha..pakis are deluding themselves again..the fact is that the paki army would sooner do a lal masjid on the whole of pakiland than give up power..especially when Dubya is leaning on mushy to bomb the jihadis..

#64 Posted by echoboom

[Is it a surprise that without atop the western danda they are unable to perform their twirl, swirl & whirrl. ]

I think that Muslims have inherited this trait from ol' mo. Mo always had an eye for white skin - in fact, he started spending so much time doing the wild thing with the Christian war booty (literally :)) Maria, that his wives threatened to go public with it, and he had to pull out a divine injunction out of his ... to checkmate his wives.

The whole thing would be funny if it were not so pathetic.

#61 Posted by hamidm2

“i would not break out the ladoos just yet .... have you ever seen the media ?.... aniq ahmed and shahid masood? .... do they appear to be independent ?......”

I have been watching both Geo and ARY with interest and that is the impression I get.

Geo is owned by a famous pro army group and the ARY is owned by an Indian Muslim who is high on Islami Nizam in Pakistan.

Oh, and apparently white prostitutes fetch the biggest price in the holy cities of Mecca and Medina..

:-)

O.K
Lord Krishna is always right.
But arjun2 s a well wisher. He digs & researches a lot of stuff which we find very useful.
How else would one know the enemy's mind?

#69 Posted by echoboom

[How else would one know the enemy's mind? ]

I think that knowing the enemy's mind would do you a fat lot of good. Whatever support you have with weenies, left w