The Future of Iraq

Masadi, Thank you for your comments but i hope you dont mind me taking the issue futher. I am afraid all discussions with you are sound.

Dash_dot, my sincere apologies, could you mail me offlist if you dont mind? bdasgupta@gmail.com

#35 "Democracy is just not simply a numbers game (as our dear friend Masada Complex (who ever came up with this name must be rewarded) seems to think "

Yeah according to this miserable fcuk, democracy is about indoctrinating the public through the media, giving them limited choices among a bunch of elite thugs, then determining the agenda, making money raising and sloganeering the be all and end all of campaigns, and then staying with the agenda determined among the elite group of thugs regardless of public opinion or desires, for these fcuks, democracy is about voting for preselected candidates, between tweedle dee and tweedle DUMB, and then letting the auto pilot of elite advantage take its course.. Don't try to teach me what democracy is about you miserable fcuk.

Beady, (and Kaalchakra)

on another thread, there was an interesting interact from Wheel O Time regarding "faith".

This is an important factor here. The people int he country need to have faith in

(a) Democracy
(b) leadership

Democracy is just not simply a numbers game (as our dear friend Masada Complex (who ever came up with this name must be rewarded) seems to think. Many countries, peoples seems to think that this what it is - a numbers game. You need to recognise that democracy is far more than just simply a numbers game.

Leadership : the people must have confidence in the leadership that it can deliver (within the constraints they have eventhough they might have promised heaven to the people), and that the leadership itself is totally committed to democracy. It is this second aspect which is missing in most cases.

Present day Iraq is no different. You have the mullahs who think democracy is a numbers game, and you a venal iraqi leadership which is seen to be paying lip service to democracy. And in between the two, the people do whatever they can to make ends meet, and to save up for a rainy day. Hence that story yougave about the jeep loads of money and doling it out, and hence my comment Yatha Raja Tatha Praja.

by complete cleansing, I did not menat it in the sense of debathification, but really one of educating the population and the leadership about the deeper meaning of democracy and peoples rule.

My tuppence for a long time. BTW you did not give me the info I asked some time back.......
cheers

"take France, USA, UK, Japan and India, strongly democratic countries, with a strong national ethos superseding any racial, religious, economic, ethnic, linguistic, political, sociological or anthropological grouping "

More BS by the author, the USA has a long history of racial segregation and oppression that exists to this day, Japan was US restructured/occupied and is a more or less homogeneous country. India has a long history of sectarianism, and the UK and France a long history of colonization based on race and skin color, as well as the current policy of ghettoizing people that don't look like them, maybe the author has forgotten the Arab riots in France. These countries practice democracy in name only, look the condition of the vast majority in India, what have they gained from this facade of "democracy", not much, same is the case of the tens of million of the poor in the USA. Did UK not go to the war as America's sidekick even though the vast majority opposed it? Come on, you are hiding the fact that homogeniety under a national flag was achieved by the elite in these countries are perpetrating the most barbarous of crimes and carnage, those are parts of their adjustments to make the vast majority of humanity subservient to the status quo that benefits them....

The author writes "That’s when Allah/God and other assorted deities and divinities need to step up to the plate and knock some sense into the warring groups and parties "

Allah needs to knock some sense into your dimwit mind. When an invader has destroyed civil society, the rule of law, all state authority (except now in the Green Zone), you expect chaos to reign supreme following in the footsteps of the invader's "rule by the gun". There was no sectarian violence of the kind under the various Iraqi regimes pre US invasion, even though foreign elements tried to ferment such conflict. The cause of this conflict is firmly placed with the American invaders. Also there are no Hindus of any substantial number living in Iraq to call for "an assortment of dieties and divinities" (you idiot).

When no effort has been made to reconstruct Iraq, or make the Iraqi people sovereign and when the shadow of the invaders, who want chaos to rein, is always hanging over their heads, we expect violence and sectarianism. Peace requires a structure to reign, that structure was taken away by barbarous foreign invaders.

Just today this appeared in the news
------
WASHINGTON AFP - Iraq’s ambassador to the United States Wednesday launched a withering attack on what he said was US slowness to provide basic weaponry to his country’s ill-equipped armed forces.

Samir Sumaidaie said the foot-dragging was inexplicable given President George W. Bush’s oft-stated desire for Iraqi forces to “stand up” and so allow US troops to withdraw from the frontlines.

Rejecting suggestions that the Pentagon is reluctant to allow high-tech US weaponry to fall into Iraqi hands, the ambassador told reporters “we’re not talking about nuclear submarines” but basic arms like automatic rifles.

------

Why do you think the US is not giving basic arms to the Iraqi military? Because they do not trust them, they know that those people, who themselves hate invaders and wanted them to leave regardless of their sect, will turn on the invaders armies every opportunity they get. The US is afraid, soon it will get its fat a$$ kicked out of Iraq, so it is trying to ferment a similar civil war in Pakistan...

Our extremist born-again Christian Knight of the Neo-Convicts Order has not only raped the country but mutilated it beyond recognition and repair -- after the Ugly American leaves the quarry with blood on its hands and a bandaged conscience -- the left over bones and carcass will go to 5 standby muslim dogs plus a chihuahua -- the Iranian dogs -- the Turkish dogs -- the Syrian dogs -- the Jordanian dogs – and the Saudi dog plus the yelping Kuwaiti Chihuahua.

The Kurdish Kuislings are going to be kloberred by three sides as soon the Kurdish Kennel guards leave the area limping -- never to return. This is the Fractured Future of the Messy Little Potamia.

Re: # 29
Sorry for english and spelling. I just got up and was sleepy and was feeding cat but now I feel better. People should not read here too much as lots people from enemy cam is trying too demoralise by posting and magnifying stuff fro newspapers but any way thet cj stuff is over. Now real stiff fight is just starting, Lal Mosque ( LM) was just warm up and terrorist are going to suffer lot unless they mend their ways and become civilised and become lawful citizens and general is doing good to country. But liberal anti muslim , antinational and panislamic terrorist want to make here trouble like Iraq and A.stan. They may be able to do that trouble for stort time ungoverned areas but as steel grip of pakistan armed forces becomes tight and as helicopter gunships start making sorties their freedom doing terrorism is going strat shrinking as LM trouble makes undertood in post operation period. At this time they do not understand they are being watched and squeezed just like late Bugti never believed when general said this time B.Terrorist will not understand from where missile struck. I got some info from one army man. It was technological achievement for High tec h. This mr. Bugti had bad habit of talking and army airmachine and usa drone caught him talking to NY times or some foreign press person.American High flying (30,000ft high) Drone was able to find location by High Tech( Longituse and latitude withing 3 feet accuracy) and conveyed to Paf f-15 eagle. And drone programmed and fired missile from f-16 and Bugti was history. Ossama Bin knows that big airmachines from usa and pakistan are looking for his talking once they get that he will be getting missile from F-16. But he defeated by just stop talking on cellular phone. If you do not use modern communication then all modern thing is garbage. Fight with asymmetry. Now he uses donkeys to transport than jeep again they can not catch as donkey is too unsofisticated compared to jeep. Any way time is on side of govt and surly things are getting tough fot terrpor making people. Nehru was not kashmiri he was up Bhayya land person. His skin was dark and he was bald and he had weak body died of heart attack. He was fake secular as proved by his daughter when she attacked pakistan same with his grandson he admitted Nehru family dream was to cyt pakistan to size. Question is can this family be suied in International court for making war palns for years? Only lawyers/ international court experts can write and tell.

Re: # 15

Beady boss,

As 4 showing the finger....King jong Il had been actually showing the dick to Bush....& All American Prezs!

Indiscrimante bombing of Lebanon was uncontested.....occuption of Iraq (though I am happy abt the flattening of Taliban) is another concern....there's nobody in this world to speak, at least.......

The idea of Nehru lingers.....the brightest Kashmiri son of modern India............

& the voice of Sunil Khilnani comes to my mind.

Its not a theocratic state but Islamic Republics of Pakistan. The country has given constitution by founding member / mr.Bhutto of 1973. Which is living documrnt and will change with time and will be modified as needed. The constitution is basic document for all muslim nations including India and others who want to improve the law and order situation by useing this Bhutto constition. Look at Pakistan market is defying gravity and going up like crszy and higest reurn on srock.Just few years had highest return on equity market.Economy is booming. Pakisrtannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn n is economy on rise look at realestate, stock market, interst rated, dollars can Indian economy do this it can not. The country is at war against intially India and ussr and that country was oput out od misery by insurgent pakistan, usa and china. And now usa and pakistan are fighting extremist and still easternfront is not cold, Fight fr kashmir is going on on long term. Which economy has done better after taking into account this ongoing war on eastern front and now on eastern front. The terrorist and extremist on run . Soon usa is also going to upgrade military hardwere specially mobility assets like addition of Helicopter gunships which will put terrorist at great advantage and JF aircraft produced by China and pakistan with powerful Russian engines which are same SU-30 the russy most modern air machines engine. I am tired of silly comparison between india and pakistan. India is like fat elephant while pakistan is asian power animal like bengali tiger which can smash any thing and put wild fat elephant out of misery. The economy is expanding at fast rest by absorbing huge foreign investments. Now these rich companies from west and arabland are not stupid to pour billions of dollars fro electricity to car companies and gas and oil production sector is booming like rocket. With defreezing of oil and gas prices and allowed to raise to international levels it is going to country like middle east. Sindh and B.Stan is full of oil and gas. Canadian, usa companies are pouring money in this sector and every month new discoveries. Now Chinese are going to pour money in that sector. World class coal deposits will used by Chinese companies to make power and may be India can get some juice at little concessional price to help poor people of India. Soon power lines will be carrying power from central asia to fuel economy of pakistan. IPI pipe line is coming on line and Indians will be forced to pay $500 million per yer as transit fee. If Indian do not behave properly then Iran Pakistan line will work properly but India pakistan cab burst what India, Iran can do. Precisely nothing . It is in interst of india to solve K problem tp pakistani satisfaction or Pakistanis will control gas from Iran.
Iraq problem can be solved if Muslim armies under UNO are employed and others go home. But long term as Jinnah suggested type solution be implimented as Iraq mind is very hot headed and same with Kurds. Division of Iraq will solve problems like india pakistan. And they will be all right if India pakistan can live Sunni, Shia, Kurd Islamic republics can live. PIA is needed that P(akistan)+I(ran)+A (a.stan) which will be good for pakistani people, afghan and Irani and USA will not be able to threaten PIA as such combination will be very powerful with huge army and atomic bombs and resources and all can move where there is job need etc like europe.

This just in …

A few days ago Bush got checked for colon cancer. Doctors found nothing alarming. They did find one lump that Bush has not been able to pass. It is being investigated further, but for now, the doctors are calling it "Iraq".

Ranjit #25

Given the utter and total incompetent mess that the US has made with Iraq with its basic peace keeping and national administration, I am not confident at all that it can replicate a yoguslavia here.

Second, it requires a sustained decades long multi-national effort to make sure that yoguslavia works, and i cant see that happening in Iraq, not the funding, not the people, not the police, not anything.

Third, yoguslavia succeeded because the pressure on all the 3 parties worked, everybody was getting something out of it. In this case, while I can see the kurds and possibly the SICRI group getting something out of partition, I cant see what turkey, iran, the mahdi army, the other arabs, etc. getting out of it, so it will be a bit of an issue.

Fourth, the crux of the matter, i simply cannot see how an equitable distribution can be established. Why on earth would the kurds give up their share of the oil to the sunni's in a different country or shia to the sunni's? or or or or.

Not very sure that it will work. In any case, i cannot see or hear any legitimate backing to this idea in any corner of the USA at all. So lord only knows who will push it? The republicans? nope. Democrats? nops. So not very hopeful i am afraid.

cheers

bd

Ranjit

Makes sense... that may be the only viable option left...

Re:beady#18 and harish_hyd
"Well, an orderly transition. I presume along the lines of India and Pakistan?"

The India-Pakistan partition was a good idea that was terribly executed by the british. At the end of the day, both Indians and Pakistanis are very happy with the way things turned out, in fact the Indians are overjoyed at the prospect of not dealing with the kind of crap that Pak society/army is dealing with these days.

I was referring to the Yugoslavian model that was executed very systematically by US and NATO. A deal was reached, borders were demarcated, peacekeepers were deployed and everyone is happy since then.

Coming to the point of external parties, since when has the US cared about their opinions? It can just tell them to take a hike and parition the country since it has physical possession of it. The internal stakeholders will comply since they will immediately get a chance to get power. The Kurds are doing quite well. The Sunnis would prefer to get their own place to rule rather than play second fiddle to the shias and see their people die every day. The Shias may not mind either since it will mean the end of suicide bombings by sunnis. The jihadis are not a party to any dispute and are a "microority" anyway. What we see in Iraq is basically a sectrian civil war. Either one party wins completely like the US civil war, or the parties get tired like in lebanon or they need to be separated physically. If the US doesnt leave, no party can win anything. No one is tired of the fighting either since the US is managing to keep some level of control. Therefore the only option is to separate them out.

The one key thing is to ensure equitable oil revenue sharing and the US can force that on all the three parties. The other thing is to have peacekeepers. That is where the UN, NATO and muslim countries can be pulled in if the US shows leadership. At the end of the day, either the US does this or it will suffer a humiliating loss. It will just retreat and we will see an orgy of a civil war happening along the lines of Lebanon for years in Iraq.

biggest mistake of the bush admin was not so much not getting enough international support (coalition of the willing) while going in but not getting enough of banias in after going in (calling europeans old and denying them the war booty AKA reconstruction ).

"US admin thinks it could do it in 4 years"

iron_mask, in religions-cultural terms the US administration and the American people in general are the most ignorant of the lot. Worse, they cocky about their own ignorance - much like our dime-a-dozen Hindu secularists.

They will always be used by smart outsiders. The saving grace from American point of view is that ultimately, the US being relatively so strong, they are still able to get their way.

beady,

Leaders do not happen, they are created by the people. For leaders to emerge, there has to be some dominant social value and any one that exudes that value emerge as a leader, in response to the hopes and aspirations of its people.

No islamic country can have a leader, because the ultimate is to follow the book. There is no flexibility, there is no dominant value other than literally do what is in the book.

Where there is prescriptive book to follow, as in India, it creates heros, it can make an Albanian Chrisitan into a saint, mother theresa. It can make an italian woman to a national hero and give the chair that a mahatma occupied.

That is why there is no hope for pakistan, no hope for any islamic state, they have to become theocratic states.