Seven Causes of Human Suffering

Saima, buddhism is primarily about reducing *earthly* suffering, with nirvana thrown in as an after thought. :(

So much so (consider how buddha arrived at his noble truths) that one can say that reducing earthly sufferings are all that matter to the Buddha.

And there is no concept of those being the only (noble) paths, and there is no faith, no hell...to my knowledge.

What do you say?....

#55 Posted by KaalChakra,

Well ... KaalChakra. Look at it like this:

Along life's 'Passages' (remember that book' of the 70s?), one comes across crossroads, with blind fronts wherever one heads. One has to do something, jump somewhere. But on one side there's visible fire, and the other a bottomless pit. In the front, there's nothing but darkness. What does one do? Where to jump? And the feet are hurting all the time as well. One can't stay still either.

That's where the sense of judgment comes in on what to do.

Islam teaches to go headlong into the darkness in front, and not to fall on either side, being scared of the dark ahead. Allah will take care of whatever is ahead.

Does that make any sense at all my friend?

correction: on earthly human lives...

zee,

agree with you fully, particularly if we keep the focus on early human lives. On earth, reducing suffering is not even the objective. Should have written "by following that path, one eliminates or minimizes error."


"'thinner than a strand of hair, and sharper than a sword'. And one has to walk across it. On one side is raging fire, and on the other a bottomless ravine with countless miseries till eternity. In short, both sides is 'hell'. If one crosses it, there is 'heaven'."

That's a beautiful imagery. Did not know about it. It reinforces the absolute importance of faith, and of following it without introducing error, without taking human liberties with it. Only a few will enter the heaven, those who have been steadfast in their beliefs, pain or no pain. Smallest errors will take people to hell.

It is a very very powerful idea, and Muslims do in genral, seem to take it seriously, but Zee, as far as I know, there is nothing like this in any Indian thought. Perhaps anyone else who knows an equivalent Indian concept can help us out.

Re: # 55

Budhisms 'Eight fold path' is the closest example. It is the same idea, however it is presented in a more concrete actionable item manner, rather than the Quran, which uses allegory. It is perhaps one reason why some Muslims get confused and misinterpret the Quran to extremes of behaviour.

S

#45/#47 Posted by KaalChakra; #46 Posted by swarrier,

Well ... Pul-e-Saraat is described in Islam as 'thinner than a strand of hair, and sharper than a sword'. And one has to walk across it. On one side is raging fire, and on the other a bottomless ravine with countless miseries till eternity. In short, both sides is 'hell'. If one crosses it, there is 'heaven'. This is the imagery. Does it sound like Maugham's 'Razor's Edge'? Or his 'Summing Up'? That was my question.

Swarrier has a point that it is supposed to be on the 'judgment day', of which there is no concept in Hinduism. Hinduism is not eschatological. But Swarrier quoted the Upanishads so there must be something like that. In any event, his criticism is valid that Qura'an indeed says it will appear on the Judgment day. I however believe we walk across it all the time and that's what Qura'an means. But that's going into the territory which is forbidden. We spoke about it once KaalChakra. This line of reason borders on Kufr.

KaalChakra, you are right in as far as "it seems the rope of faith, or following the Quran's (and the Prophet's) narrow and straight path is most meaningful", but not so in saying "By following that path, sufferings can be minimized".

Remember, beneath the feet is the "Razor's Edge" (or Pul-e-Saraat). It hurts and cuts the feet all the time while you are walking across. Following that path does not minimize or alleviate suffering, but teaches how to accept it with dignity and courage, and to keep going.

That's the 'Razor's Edge'.

swarrier yaar, immortality has nothing to with it. there is more regard to human rights today than ever before. the caliphate wishers forget that the average mooslim back in the day was dirt poor, lived till about 40 yrs of age and died of tonsilitis. While the palaces of the mughals in India had lavish gardens and bater sandwiches were being served to the court, and india had 20-25% share of the global trade, Indians (muslims, hindus, buddhists, atheists) were still dirt poor, went hungry often and died prematurely of disease and circumstances.

Dr. Sahibs, article should be followed up by an analysis of how these ills have affected humanity in terms of their degree of impact during antiquity, middle ages, industrial revolution and the American century. Perhaps Masadi can join inthis ambitious research endevour to finally put his mediocre pedigree to work as a sociologist.

I am somewhat at a loss to read Dr. Suhail’s statement, “Twenty-first-century humanity is at a crossroads”. A cursory look at the world history would reveal that humans have been at each other’s throats ever since the history has been kept. Most often the cause of the conflicts have been driven by geo-political reasons rather than the seven causes that Dr. Suhail has identified. Human psyche has displayed more or less the same behavior for thousands of years, the only factor that has changed over the centuries is the choice of the weapons. It appears that the technology has evolved at a much higher pace then has the human psyche.

The human need for controlling others in the interest of expanding geo-political borders, has caused death and destruction of unprecedented magnitudes that far exceeds the pain due to the seven causes listed in the article. During the last 20 years, tens of millions of people have been killed, injured and made homeless as a result of the US love of oil (two invasions of Iraq, 1991 and 2003), the control of Central Asia and the pipelines through Afghanistan, Soviet invasion of 1979-89, the on-going US invasion of 2001 and Russia-Chechnya conflicts since 1991.

Going back a little in history, during 1950s and 60s, in order to feed the cold war, many hot spots were created at the cost of human life and misery. To name a few, Korea, Vietnam, destabilization of Yugoslavia, The African sates, unfortunate enough to have oil under their soil, the Soviet Gulags to support its political and economical ideologies. All this death and destruction took place only after the end of the WWII. If we are willing to roll back for another fifty years, then we have to contend with the two World Wars, the Spanish civil war and the Japanese invasion of China, both during 1930s. Not to mention the Indian partition (some may say it was Hindu-Muslim problem, but actually started intestinally by the British rulers to divert public attention. Although they could no longer hold on to the colony, but managed to create the conditions necessary for partition, the second best choice from British Empire point of view. Let me remind you that the Hindus and Muslims lived together peacefully for at least 500 years, the only exception is Aurangzeb’s reign).

While going back in history, I have not even entered the 19th century and the death toll is already so huge that the pain due to the seven causes that Dr. Suhail has listed, appears to be chicken feed when compared with the death and destruction caused by the human hunger for global controls and international supremacy – basically geopolitical aspirations of some.

The seven causes that Dr. Suhail has listed, have existed ever since the man has existed. In fact, man has slowly developed a batter understanding of many of these issues. For example, the conflicts arising within the communities due to race, gender, social class and mental disabilities are nowhere near the magnitude at which they have existed in the past. Many of these conflicts take the centre stage only in those societies where socio economic conditions have not been developed to an acceptable level. The socio- economic conditions are a function of several factors, such as the maturity of political culture within a society as well as external negative influences and pressures due to geo-political causes.

Regarding the notion of one’s nationality, its emphasis is nothing but a basic human need that seeks association with like minded and those who display common attributes. This characteristic is in fact, a very basic property of a human - the social animal. This attribute in itself is neither a problem nor a threat to humanity.

I will now, like to address and comment on some of the (apparently) social problems that have been quoted in Dr. Suhails’ article. He has cited Ireland example of the Protestants versus Catholics. It is not as simple as Dr. Suhail has tried to portray as being one religious ideology against another. The problems goes back in history, the origin of which is Britain (predominantly English) colonizing the island of Ireland. As the democracy was in its infancy, a universal suffrage did not exist. The voting rights were granted on the basis of gender and property ownership in England. Since the (Irish) Protestants were financially well off, they had more votes and hence the cause of friction with the Catholics. It must be considered that Europe’s as a whole is divided into three main types of Christianity, the Greek Orthodox, the Roman Catholics and the Protestants. The Irish problem does not stem from the religious difference but its origin lies in British geo-political plans. The lack of universal suffrage triggered it.

Similarly, the Arab Israel conflict is not about the religion, but about geo-political esteem. The Zionist history goes back to the last decade of 19th century. A study of several centuries of Ottoman Empire clearly tells us that the Muslims, Christians and Jews have lived together peacefully. In order to know the origin of the current conflict between the Muslims and the Jews, one must study the social, economical and political circumstances got created after the WWI and the impact of Balfour Declaration (1917); its handling (or mishandling) during the subsequent decade, the impact of WWII, the treachery of the British government, the political weakness of the Arab leadership – all of these factors led to the conflict between the Arabs and the Jews that we see it today. Its origin lies, again, in the geo-political plans and the supporting actions of many (non-Muslim and non-Jewish) nations.

Regarding the present Iraqi situation, it is sad that Dr. Suhail has grossly oversimplified and limited his comments to Shiite-Sunni (religious) conflict while totally ignoring the disastrous conditions that have been created through the American hegemony in the interest of Iraqi oil. Iraq was a progressive country and their leader (Saddam), although not very bright, had a secular type governance in place. The question is why the Americans (the self proclaimed leaders of the world) are unable to create peaceful conditions in the country? Let me add here that if the Iraq like living conditions are introduced in Canada today, you may see the same kind of death and destruction taking place. Recall, the loss of power for just one night a few years ago in Ontario, all hell broke loose in big cities; the burglars appeared out of woodwork.

It is my contention that Dr. Suhail has failed to support the claim that the humanity is at crossroads (the opening line of the article) on grounds of the listed seven causes. In my opinion, his thesis lacks in in-depth analysis to provide a thorough understand of the real causes of the human problems and its psyche. An appropriate corrective action cannot be taken unless the real cause of the misery is identified.

Javed I. Chaudry

See you later, swarrier. I gotta run too in a minute :)

Actually, in that sense, one can see a relationship to what zee was suggesting. Islam, or all faith-based traditions, have this notion of God 'testing' his people and their faith. Not identical, I would think, but a close enough to putting your nose to the grindstone, and getting better through suffering (in pursuit of faith or not being the key difference, IMO).

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chalta, the way we look at it, paths are only for those who need them. Paths are like roads, they make life easier but also take away the richness of exploration or the joy of discovery (of a newer, shorter path?).

RE:#49
Chaltoo
((People are richer, live longer and healthier. Never before in the history of mankind has this been the case. ))
Immortality is a fate worse than death.

Kaal he couldn't read Sanskrit though he dabbled. My point was and as is said in our philosophies , true joy cannot be experienced without suffering. When you got your distinction in your SSC didn't you suffer and put your nose to the grindstone. -))

Now I'll become high hat and say things like Man is tempered by suffering as a sword is by the forge's flame. -)) Time to run.

Paths are funny concepts. As if the solution is a linear one. Kaal, why the insistence on "a" path?

Human kind is beter state than it has ever been. People are richer, live longer and healthier. Never before in the history of mankind has this been the case.

So lets not celebrate some illconceived doom and lets rejoice

swarrier, somerset maugham actually went to India and met some sadhus there. He has to have had some idea of Indian philosophy. All this sounds too walt whimanish :)

As to paths (and that is relevant to ending suffering as well) from Islamic context, it seems the rope of faith, or follwoing the Quran's (and the Prophet's) narrow and straight path is most meaningful. By following that path, sufferings can be minimized.

Zee, did I present that accurately?

#43
Zee, I didn't your reference to the bridge that one must pass over. I thought you folks came to the bridge on judgement day.
Incidentally this idea seems to have been come from Zarathustra's Cinvat.

In our case we Hindus have no judgement day but according to the saying the path to salvation is as keen as the razor's edge.

By the way Maugham just lifted the statement from the Katha Upanishad (It is believed he got Isherwood to translate) but you remember how the main protagonist of the novel just disappears into the middle-ground America to become a mechanic. To get away from suffering, to have no possessions, no ties ....

Zee, swarrier sahib is a bit in the mould of echo dada. He lets us underlings do the discussing :)

Zee, as a confirmed philistine, I stay away from all high lit, but can think aloud, if that's ok with you, and swarrier agrees to put us on the right track if we go wrong.

I don't really see too many much of that (Pul-Saraat, joo-e-sheer, teesha-e-sang kind) imagery in Indian tradition. It tends to be a little different, like bhava sagar (sea of existence), karma kshetra (the field of action).

Those are just the kinds of ideas that one would expect sufis to naturally misuse (claim them to be Islamic ideas), but Pul-Saraat, joo-e-sheer, teesha-e-sang etc. don't, as far as I know, have many Indian equivalents (only because Hindu "sufis" have not played the reverse game).

But if someone could clarify the basic meanings - in a broad sense - behind such concepts, may be some Hindus will pick up on something they know.

will humanity change, naw i cant see it happening for at least another 1000 years.
As long as there is greed, lust, envy, hatred, prejudices etc humanity will not change