Seven Causes of Human Suffering

Khalid, can you place these seven maladies in order of importance?

The modern mind is in complete disorder. Knowledge has extended itself to the point where neither the world nor our intelligence can find any foot-hold. It is a fact that we the human are suffering from nihilism.

Qaid-e-Hayat o Band-e-Gham, asal mey dono ek hain
Maut se pehle aadmi, gham se nijat paye kion

Re: # 1
dear iron mask....it is hard for me to put them in some order. i usually give an example to my friends that schizophrenia affects one percent of the population but the person who suffers from mental illness for him it is one hundred percent.
statistically speaking class issues affect 80% of world population while gender issues 50%. i think when we would be able to educate masses and raise social consciousness then each community would be able to assess their problems and put their heads together to solve problems in a cooperative way. unfortunately we are still carrying the baggage of our previous generations. human history has been nightmarish. more and more people are feeling helpless and hopeless. i feel that if there is a critical mass of committted and dedicated people in the world there can be a positive change. i always believed breakdowns can lead to breakthroughs....thanks for your question...sohail

Re: # 3
dear khurram...
meri ummeed ki pathra gain aankhain laikin
main nay is laash ko seenay say laga rakha hay
it is nice to receive your poetic letter
lambi hay gham ki shaam magar shaam hi to hay
when conscientious and enlightenend people like you are still alive i remain optimistic....affectionately sohail

Dr Sohail, interesting read....another factor which is increasingly gaining importance is "aping the West" syndrome and this is true I guess in the whole of South Asia...

Re: # 6
dear chennai....can you share your understanding of the dynamics of this syndrome? thanks...sohail

Re: # 7
Dr Sohail, will do..2morrow.

thanks

Prakash

wow drsahib..there was a man a while back in india who tried to figure out what is the source of human suffering..he came with the answer desire..which left many o f us unfulfilled. i mean what kind of an answer is that? your stuff us far more fulfilling (or perhaps one gets a false sense). i am surprised you did not refer to the state of the art on this topic i.e. stuff from the man from lumbini.

Re: # 9
dear jang...this article was written just to introduce social causes of human suffering. in the future i might present other articles focusing on psychological and emotional and mystical aspects. thanks for your interest. for me diagnosis of a problem should also help us to resolve it...sohail

This is a well written and documented article and covers a number of main points in human life that are areas which expose our races driven force to excel in growth. Growth though, may not necessarily be a good thing for our race. One of the things the human race has to do in order to save its self is become less selfish and greedy on and individual and group level. We can help each other but it requires sacrifices of goals and income I feel. Almost like a form of voluntary socialism, helping a fellow man in need no matter what difference exists. I’m order to make a difference we have to make a commitment on an individual level and I feel this is road block for many. As people mature and create careers and families and strive for the best life possible are they willing to sacrifice some of their rewards such as income to help less unfortunate people. I know in the western world people do give and show support but many charities and groups use pressuring forms of telemarketing to become successful. The future is in the hands of the new generations we are educating. Most people of a mature adult age have been molded by past social ideas and by adapting new ways within or education systems around the world the future generations will see things differently and hopefully will realize how this race has to artificially adapt to save itself. Naturally our race can destroy itself because our intelligence was never a plan just an outcome. Now that we have found the tools which can give individuals the power beyond our control we need to really start to understand who we are and re evaluate our purpose here on earth. Our hands should only be attached to the arms of reason when making decisions that affect this world we live in.

mark Robinson
Mark Henry Robinson

Re: # 11
dear mark...i like your concept of...voluntary socialism...people voluntarily sharing their resources with others for common good. stay in touch...sincerely sohail

Truemind, people always share, just not with everybody.

So a more basic question is of deciding who is somebody and who is nobody, and how the opportunity space and resource space get divided up because of that kind of thinking.

Again, sharing, at least a little of what one has, is extremely easy. It's much harder addressing the question of who do we share with.

RE:#9
Dear Jang , if you meet the Buddha on the road kill him.

Dr. Sohail if you take away these causes there will be seven other causes to suffer for.

drsohail,

I liked this line in your piece:

"For example a black working class lesbian woman might struggle on four fronts and suffer multiple disadvantages with overlapping impacts."

I agree with the list of issues you have compiled. Some other problems we face are tradition and growth fetish.

Nice article, even though there's nothing new in it but we need such iterations until sufficient awareness is there.

drsohail,

You live in Canada. For each of the 7 issues you have highlighted, the Canadian society is moving in the direction you would approve of.
So, is human sufferring about to be eliminated from Canada?

Re: # 13

A majority share because it makes them feel good doing so. Altruism at work but I have always felt helping others is also an indirect way of helping ones self, but in this case it is a good thing. So why is it so hard for our race to do what is required? We make our homes safe for our families, we install smoke detectors and locks on our door but outside of our home we don't seem to care as much. We each want a solution but cannot join hands to do it as a group of one.
Mark Henry Robinson

Truemind, (1) there is no group of one; (2) we each want a solution, but we each want a different solution; (3) everybody does what is required, but folks have different ways of determinging what is required, and they don't obviously reach the same conclusions.

Truemind, these are the realities. We can ignore them, and that's perfectly alright because most people will ignore us. But some might listen, which does make the whole effort worth it (just that we shouldn't start believing that reality changes just because we are ignoring it.)

KaalChakra, I think we are on the same page some what.

Realities can not be ignored if it's a solution was are in search of. It's kind of like doing something wrong and saying your sorry. It can take a long time for someone to come around and finally realize they are wrong. Like believing in a god and then realizing that the life makes more sense without one. Maybe changing what comes natural to give our race a better chance is the challenge. Going against the grain for a solution.
Mark Henry Robinson

Re: # 16
dear khurram....no society is perfect but i feel canada as a nation is far more sensitive to the needs of the people who suffer. canadian government has free health care and people generally are far more involved in voluntary work. serving one's community is one of the canadian values.
if international human rights' guide is one yardstick then
canada....newzealnad...norway are some of the communities that has human rights in their 90s ...
it seems as if canada has integrated the best of the capitalistic and socialistic values and traditions...and candians are genrally very peaceful people. if there were more countries in the world like canada we would have less human suffering.
it is unfortunate that in the last few years because of the conservative government in canada and its close association with american government some of the values are being undermined but overall it has maintained its humanistic values and traditions so far. i am glad i chose canada to live, learn and serve....sohail

Re: # 14
dear swarrier....it took me a long time to realize that as human beings we have a choice. to suffer or to enjoy life. since i realized that it is my right to be happy, life started changing. that is what i chare with my friends and my patients and their families. that is a choice we have to make collectively...all the best...sohail

jang/sohail sahib, desire of what? I think it is desire to live longer..some more. most if not all our desires are tied to our ability to live longer.
food: to live longer
clothes: to keep warmer..live longer. to look good so that eligible to be picked for mating so that can produce offspring..and live longer through them
sex: to reproduce and live longer
sex with younger women/girls: more chances of producing offspring and living longer through them.
get a college degree: so that eat better and live longer....find a better mate reproduce better and live longer
buy TV: watch and learn to hunt better and live longer
computer: learn to hunt better
more money: all of above hence insure longer life

etc etc


although it does not explain: craving nihari and whisky.

Re: # 9 wow, jangy!

you take my breath away.

Care to exapnd on what you just said there?

Re: # 4

Re: # 4
thanks for that Khalid, its called the old one-two and then a side step.

You say

"unfortunately we are still carrying the baggage of our previous generations. human history has been nightmarish. more and more people are feeling helpless and hopeless. i feel that if there is a critical mass of committted and dedicated people in the world there can be a positive change. i always believed breakdowns can lead to breakthroughs"



Human beings always carry "a baggage" - its called the mind, soul (call it whatever). Its something which gets written into our code, and over time some of it gets reinforced, and some cases the code develops such that these cases are never arrived at.

Breaking down the causes of human suffering into the seven you suggest, may be a good starting point, however, they do limit both the width as well as the depth of possible analysis, and hence the conclusions you can arrive at. In each case you can provide the reasons for this, as well as recommend a remedy. For some some you might find that this is the same.

My point, is that you do need both a heirarchy as well as a priority within each class. (Indeed you might find that some of the issues you have raised could be subsumed by another). For without it, you cannot get to the bottom of the real problem -i.e "causes of human suffering".

The points 1, 2, 3, and 7 have been analysed to death in the last 200 years (I am not going to go to an earlier date). The issues numbered 4, 5, and 6 have also been analysed before, but have recently come to the fore, and do indicate a certain development of our own mind and advance as "civilised and rational" human beings.

You see for the extremely strong conclusion you have arrived at

Humanity is at a crossroads. Rather than committing collective suicide and perishing as a species I hope we grow to the next stage of human evolution ....
you need more than the mundane to support you. If the past record (there you are "your baggage" ) weren't there, I would put this conclusion as another cliched statement put in for affect and carries no meaning whatsoever.

Khalid,

Let me start at the very begining. Since you are talking about suffering and its causes

(a) Since the discovery of the atomic bomb, human beings are for the first time in history able to commit collective suicide. I hope that rather than following the path of self -destruction, human beings choose to progress to the next stage of evolution and learn ways to live in peace and harmony with themselves and others
This is a defeatist point of view. Human beings are resourceful and the vast majority are rational. If they can discover the A-Bomb, they can also discover the means to avoid destruction. But at a different level, what is interesting is that life will not be destroyed it will continue - maybe not as we know it (to borrow a Trekky dialogue) but nevertheless will continue, for eternity and there is no god in this universe who can put a full stop to it.
Having posed this heavy and mind blowing question, you state
(b)When I review the contemporary dynamics of social, economic and political factors, I can easily recognize the following seven main causes of human suffering
Oaky. Good. here we go. However, what followed were 7 issues, which at various levels could be subsumed into another (as I said elesewhere), and indeed you also seem to recognise it when you say "For example a black working class lesbian woman might struggle on four fronts and suffer multiple disadvantages with overlapping impacts." towards the end of the article.
Lets take the issues you raised one by one
(c) 1. ISSUE OF CLASS
We donot have go go back millenia here. But starting from Adam Smith (who wrote the wealth of nations whilst as a clerk to the EIC in India), to Marx, have argued about this. And indeed Marx has used the same argument as you when he called for the great prol. revol. Having raised this big, very big issue, youlet it all down with your example. I mean how much more of navel gazing can there be.
The issue of class will always be there. You cannot avoid it and indeed you can never ever over come it. That is the very basic instinct in human beings and every living creature. What can be done, however, is to soften this with words like "equitable" as opposed to "equal", or to go back use phrases like "because of their fathers' " (check Leviticus,) or Isaiah which is more graphic "Prepare a place to slaughter his sons for the sins of their forefathers; they are not to rise to inherit the land and cover the earth with their cities".
Those who call for a soft socialist model (like you did below), are essentially hoodwinking people into thinking this problem will be solved. Too clever by half, and eventually these caller for soft socialism will be top dogs. (is it any different from the muscular socialism of Russia or China). To be more crude to use a popular Pakistani Phrase " muh mein ram ram, bagal mein churri".
(d)2. ISSUE OF RACE No argument there. This issue is one of dominance - the spoils of war. the defeated are always made inferior. May be. BUt it eventually, in the long run, boils down to class. Your issue number 1.
(e)3. ISSUE OF GENDER Now, here is a point which could have been expanded more. But you end up using ole grand-mothers tales to bolster your issue, rather than bring home the real issue. I mean what else can be said, when it is written "The expressions mother tongue and motherland remind us of those times".
In old days, earth, the ground we live on, was mother earth (or earth mother) starting from the greek Demeter (which was a feminine word) (In Greek mythology Demeter was the goddess of agriculture, the daughter of Cronus, the sister of Zeus, and the mother of Persephone) similarly Gaia. In India as well this was the case.It is not because of a matriarchal society which existsed. That is pure nonsense. Dig a bit deeper, for the meaning behind the usuage and you will be surprised.
The issue of Gender, is more fundemental than this. As a human being, and as a rational animal, who believs is equality of all humans, we must allow for equality amongst genders and not use one gender as personal baby generators and bag carriers. This requires, that we all understand that all human beings on earth have a right to live their lives as they desire (ofcourse within reason), and have control on themselves, their space, mind, and body. It is not a question of whether they can and should lead prayers or be prophets - who cares about it. I mean if they cannot lead a life what difference does it make if we allow them to lead prayers.

(f)4. ISSUE OF RELIGION I will not delve on this. Since this is a topic which gets discussed on chowk forever.
(g)5. ISSUE OF SEXUAL ORIENTATION Is this a fundemental cause for human suffering? Again, the use of words like moral, immoral, amoral etc takes it towards "religion". This is different from the issues of gender, class etc, but one more derived from religion, and I again will sidestep it - since this is also an issue which is discussed at lenght on Chowk. And there are more and better people than to put forward arguments here.
(h)6. ISSUE OF PHYSICAL AND MENTAL DISABILITIES again, a primary cause of human suffering. All of us suffer from this at one time or other - in one way or the other. There is no human being on earth how can say, hand on heart, that he has never suffered mental anguish (some more than the others, some more permanent than the others). Once more, having raised a very pertinent and weighty issue, you let it all down, with saying "The creation of special parking places for people with disabilities in parking areas across Canada is a welcome development". Come on for crying out loud, parking spaces - so what. They should be there for all, just because they have now been provided for the physically disabled, its no great shakes. It does not eliviate their Suffering in any measure whatsoever. You got to be kidding right. So folks, lets campaign all over the world for providing extra car apces, and not only that for having extra large parking bays and all this suffering will disappear.

(i) 7. ISSUE OF NATIONALISM????????

I have been long enough on my soap box. But Khalid, I will recommend this, most of us South Asians having received new education have forgotten this - one of the most preeminent gifts to mankind


Buddham Sharanam Gachami,
Dhamam Sharanam Gachami,
Sangham Sharanam Gacham

16 Posted by khurram on July 24, 2007 12:18:47 pm
drsohail,

You live in Canada. For each of the 7 issues you have highlighted, the Canadian society is moving in the direction you would approve of.
So, is human sufferring about to be eliminated from Canada?

LoL !

Arrey Khalid Sohail Bhai ... human suffering is relative to the human condition. Get your answers from Aristotle Onassis who had everything but could have given it all away just to be able to keep his eyes open without his eyelids being scotch-taped to his eyebrows, while others willingly sell their kidneys for a fraction of what he spent in perhaps less than a minute.

Zindigani ki haqeeqat koh kun kay dil say pooch
Joo-e-sheer-o- teesha-o-sang-e-giran hai zindagi

Dear Dr. Buddhiman Sohail Sahib -- in every article you spread so much obvious sweetness with which it is impossible to disgree that one day we may all suffer from type II diabetes.

Thanks for condensing to 7 days of human suffering. Indeed a powerful article.

Re: # 25
dear iron-mask....thank you for your detailed comments. in my mind the first step is awareness and the motivation to decrease human suffering and increase health and happiness. many people i meet who are suffering never gave a serious thought of why they suffer and what they do to change their lives....individually and collectively...they call it...God's will...kismat...fate...and do not take responsibility to be part of maintaining their suffering.
i am not sure of your sense of humour. but for some reason i remember this story that my jewish friend told me. you might enjoy it. she said
the whole evolution of life and our development as a species is because of the insights of five jews
the first one was moses who said...the most important aspect of our lives is our mind...we need to use it wisely
the second jew was christ who said ...the most imporatnt aspect is our heart...we need to be compassionate towards others
the third jew was marx...he said it is not head or heart it is our stomach...we need to pay attention to hunger and poverty and relieve it
the fourth jew was freud....he said the most important part is below the belly...it is sex that causes all problems and we need to satisfy it
the fifth jew was einstein...he listened to all four theories of human suffering and happiness and said...it is all relative
smiles...sohail

Existence....
It matters more than merely earning a profit,
or avoiding a loss.
It is the name of sacrificing oneself
for causes noble and lofty;
It is the name of enduring pain,
and suffering in silent submission,
to the will of the Almighty.

It transcends the bounds of 'today' and 'tomorrow';
it transcends the bounds of 'the Beginning of days' and 'the End of days'.
It flows through time,
it is eternal;
never ending,
forever young.

If you are alive to Existence...
If you wish to exist the way one should...
then mould a world of your own.
Existence is the great secret of the of the mankind;
It is the essence, the crux of the command, "Be, and it was"

If you seek the reality of existence...
Ask of it from Farhad,*
for him, it is simple.
A rivulet of milk,
a pickaxe,
and a hard rock.

When subservient and enslaved,
it is desolate and destitute,
like a trickling stream...
like a dried up rivulet.
In freedom...
It is a boundless ocean;
Deep and immense.

It is evident and manifest,
in the displays of its all conquering power;
Although it is hidden in an earthenware shell;
the human body;
insignificant, and fragile.

You have entered the realm of Existence,
Like a bubble emerging from the depths of an ocean;
an insignificant entity,
with an insignificant lifespan.
Make no mistake,
Your Existence in this wasteland'
is a test of your character,
and morals.

Unless you perfect your Existence
You are nothing,
But a mound of waste.
But if you can achieve the perfection;
Then you are a naked sword;
Awesome and Formidable.

ooops #30 is the translation of the little poem zeemax put up....
the original

Bar Tar Az Andesha -e- Sood o-Ziyan hai Zindagi
Hai Kabhi Jaan, aur kabhi tasleem-e-jaan hai zindagi

Tu issay paimana-e-imroz-o-farda say nah naap
Javidaan, paiham rawan, har dam jawan hai zindagi

Apni dunya aap paida kar agar zindon main hai
Sirr-e-adam hai, zameer-e- kun-fakaan hai zindagi

Zindigani ki haqeeqat koh kun kay dil say pooch
Joo-e-sheer-o- teesha-o-sang-e-giran hai zindagi

Bandagi main ghat ke reh jaati hai ik joo-e-kum aab
Aur azadi main behr-e-bay karan hai zindagi

Ashkara hai yeh apni quwwat-e-taskheer say
Gar cheh ik mitti kay paikar main nihaan hai zindagi

Qulzam-e-hasti say uttha hai tu manind-e-hubaab
Iss ziyaan khanay main tera imtihan hai zindagi

Kham hai jab tak, tau hai mitti ka ik anbaar tu
Pukhta ho jaye to hai shamsheer-e-bay zinhaar tu

do the nice thing and paste the whole poem...it makes sense

Re: # 29 LOL!
Just caught me as I was finishing up for the night here.

Yes, ofcourse it is all relative. My suffering could be your joke, and your suffering to me could a joke.
You see Khalid, you are using sentences and phrases which make sense to me, here is one

in my mind the first step is awareness and the motivation to decrease human suffering and increase health and happiness

I agree with it all. But it is heirarchies Khalid, not a flat list. The heirarchies would also put the back women (your example) into the correct perspective.

Anyway got to go and catch some breakfast....see you later

here is a couplet of mine for your article:

Maale zindagi paikar-e paihum
naheeN hasil hai kutch aaho foghaaN say

The Eighth cause of suffering refers to those who have to suffer through your Goddamned articles which are moronic, dimwitted and like Gill, ill thought out and tape recorderesque. Please quit writing or atleast put some "thought" in atleast ONE PARAGRAPH of your retarded work.

Re: # 34 come on masadi why be harsh on your self. This self-flaggelation you undergo frequently on chowk can become an eye-sore.

Dr. Sohail's articles are accessible and easy to comprehend and do not require more than a popular reading list.

Re: #21
Dear Dr. Sohail

[[it took me a long time to realize that as human beings we have a choice. to suffer or to enjoy life. since i realized that it is my right to be happy, life started changing.]]

Sure but you cannot deny people the right to suffer or deprive them of their happiness in suffering. Like Jang in 9 and the man from Lumbini he quoted, do you remember the ending of Somerset Maugham's novel "The razor's edge?"

"The sharp edge of a razor is difficult to pass over; thus the wise say the path to Salvation is hard." —Katha-Upanishad.

The desire to end suffering, which is to end desire, can turn back on itself.

#31 Posted by Dash_Dot,

Yeah, but only that particular verse was relevant here. The rest would be wasted on "freethinkers".

BTW, how come you posted it alongwith translation? Do you have a point to make?

#36 Posted by swarrier,

"The razor's edge"

What else do you think 'Pul-e-Saraat' represents? :-)

(BTW Thanks for the songs on UP)

#38 Zee

Anytime. Cheerio

Re: # 37
naaah! just thought it was a good piece and worth the effort putting here.....now stop being so damn suspicious

here is an existential question for you

To be a bee, or not to be a bee. That is the question.

#40 Posted by Dash_Dot,

To pee, or to hold it till you get home, that's the REAL question ... :)

#34 Posted by masadi,

LoL masadi ... you're too unkind to the guy. After all, take into account that he just won the Humorist of the Year Award in Toronto, Canada.

#39 Posted by swarrier,

Oh well ... I know you don't get entangled in these messy arguments :-)

So I will ask kaalchakra ... I'm just curious how people relate to things like what Maugham said:

"The razor's edge"

What else does it represent if not 'Pul-e-Saraat'?

(... and joo-e-sheer, teesha-e-sang, etc etc :-)

will humanity change, naw i cant see it happening for at least another 1000 years.
As long as there is greed, lust, envy, hatred, prejudices etc humanity will not change

Zee, swarrier sahib is a bit in the mould of echo dada. He lets us underlings do the discussing :)

Zee, as a confirmed philistine, I stay away from all high lit, but can think aloud, if that's ok with you, and swarrier agrees to put us on the right track if we go wrong.

I don't really see too many much of that (Pul-Saraat, joo-e-sheer, teesha-e-sang kind) imagery in Indian tradition. It tends to be a little different, like bhava sagar (sea of existence), karma kshetra (the field of action).

Those are just the kinds of ideas that one would expect sufis to naturally misuse (claim them to be Islamic ideas), but Pul-Saraat, joo-e-sheer, teesha-e-sang etc. don't, as far as I know, have many Indian equivalents (only because Hindu "sufis" have not played the reverse game).

But if someone could clarify the basic meanings - in a broad sense - behind such concepts, may be some Hindus will pick up on something they know.

#43
Zee, I didn't your reference to the bridge that one must pass over. I thought you folks came to the bridge on judgement day.
Incidentally this idea seems to have been come from Zarathustra's Cinvat.

In our case we Hindus have no judgement day but according to the saying the path to salvation is as keen as the razor's edge.

By the way Maugham just lifted the statement from the Katha Upanishad (It is believed he got Isherwood to translate) but you remember how the main protagonist of the novel just disappears into the middle-ground America to become a mechanic. To get away from suffering, to have no possessions, no ties ....

As to paths (and that is relevant to ending suffering as well) from Islamic context, it seems the rope of faith, or follwoing the Quran's (and the Prophet's) narrow and straight path is most meaningful. By following that path, sufferings can be minimized.

Zee, did I present that accurately?

swarrier, somerset maugham actually went to India and met some sadhus there. He has to have had some idea of Indian philosophy. All this sounds too walt whimanish :)

Paths are funny concepts. As if the solution is a linear one. Kaal, why the insistence on "a" path?

Human kind is beter state than it has ever been. People are richer, live longer and healthier. Never before in the history of mankind has this been the case.

So lets not celebrate some illconceived doom and lets rejoice

RE:#49
Chaltoo
((People are richer, live longer and healthier. Never before in the history of mankind has this been the case. ))
Immortality is a fate worse than death.

Kaal he couldn't read Sanskrit though he dabbled. My point was and as is said in our philosophies , true joy cannot be experienced without suffering. When you got your distinction in your SSC didn't you suffer and put your nose to the grindstone. -))

Now I'll become high hat and say things like Man is tempered by suffering as a sword is by the forge's flame. -)) Time to run.

See you later, swarrier. I gotta run too in a minute :)

Actually, in that sense, one can see a relationship to what zee was suggesting. Islam, or all faith-based traditions, have this notion of God 'testing' his people and their faith. Not identical, I would think, but a close enough to putting your nose to the grindstone, and getting better through suffering (in pursuit of faith or not being the key difference, IMO).

-------------------

chalta, the way we look at it, paths are only for those who need them. Paths are like roads, they make life easier but also take away the richness of exploration or the joy of discovery (of a newer, shorter path?).

I am somewhat at a loss to read Dr. Suhail’s statement, “Twenty-first-century humanity is at a crossroads”. A cursory look at the world history would reveal that humans have been at each other’s throats ever since the history has been kept. Most often the cause of the conflicts have been driven by geo-political reasons rather than the seven causes that Dr. Suhail has identified. Human psyche has displayed more or less the same behavior for thousands of years, the only factor that has changed over the centuries is the choice of the weapons. It appears that the technology has evolved at a much higher pace then has the human psyche.

The human need for controlling others in the interest of expanding geo-political borders, has caused death and destruction of unprecedented magnitudes that far exceeds the pain due to the seven causes listed in the article. During the last 20 years, tens of millions of people have been killed, injured and made homeless as a result of the US love of oil (two invasions of Iraq, 1991 and 2003), the control of Central Asia and the pipelines through Afghanistan, Soviet invasion of 1979-89, the on-going US invasion of 2001 and Russia-Chechnya conflicts since 1991.

Going back a little in history, during 1950s and 60s, in order to feed the cold war, many hot spots were created at the cost of human life and misery. To name a few, Korea, Vietnam, destabilization of Yugoslavia, The African sates, unfortunate enough to have oil under their soil, the Soviet Gulags to support its political and economical ideologies. All this death and destruction took place only after the end of the WWII. If we are willing to roll back for another fifty years, then we have to contend with the two World Wars, the Spanish civil war and the Japanese invasion of China, both during 1930s. Not to mention the Indian partition (some may say it was Hindu-Muslim problem, but actually started intestinally by the British rulers to divert public attention. Although they could no longer hold on to the colony, but managed to create the conditions necessary for partition, the second best choice from British Empire point of view. Let me remind you that the Hindus and Muslims lived together peacefully for at least 500 years, the only exception is Aurangzeb’s reign).

While going back in history, I have not even entered the 19th century and the death toll is already so huge that the pain due to the seven causes that Dr. Suhail has listed, appears to be chicken feed when compared with the death and destruction caused by the human hunger for global controls and international supremacy – basically geopolitical aspirations of some.

The seven causes that Dr. Suhail has listed, have existed ever since the man has existed. In fact, man has slowly developed a batter understanding of many of these issues. For example, the conflicts arising within the communities due to race, gender, social class and mental disabilities are nowhere near the magnitude at which they have existed in the past. Many of these conflicts take the centre stage only in those societies where socio economic conditions have not been developed to an acceptable level. The socio- economic conditions are a function of several factors, such as the maturity of political culture within a society as well as external negative influences and pressures due to geo-political causes.

Regarding the notion of one’s nationality, its emphasis is nothing but a basic human need that seeks association with like minded and those who display common attributes. This characteristic is in fact, a very basic property of a human - the social animal. This attribute in itself is neither a problem nor a threat to humanity.

I will now, like to address and comment on some of the (apparently) social problems that have been quoted in Dr. Suhails’ article. He has cited Ireland example of the Protestants versus Catholics. It is not as simple as Dr. Suhail has tried to portray as being one religious ideology against another. The problems goes back in history, the origin of which is Britain (predominantly English) colonizing the island of Ireland. As the democracy was in its infancy, a universal suffrage did not exist. The voting rights were granted on the basis of gender and property ownership in England. Since the (Irish) Protestants were financially well off, they had more votes and hence the cause of friction with the Catholics. It must be considered that Europe’s as a whole is divided into three main types of Christianity, the Greek Orthodox, the Roman Catholics and the Protestants. The Irish problem does not stem from the religious difference but its origin lies in British geo-political plans. The lack of universal suffrage triggered it.

Similarly, the Arab Israel conflict is not about the religion, but about geo-political esteem. The Zionist history goes back to the last decade of 19th century. A study of several centuries of Ottoman Empire clearly tells us that the Muslims, Christians and Jews have lived together peacefully. In order to know the origin of the current conflict between the Muslims and the Jews, one must study the social, economical and political circumstances got created after the WWI and the impact of Balfour Declaration (1917); its handling (or mishandling) during the subsequent decade, the impact of WWII, the treachery of the British government, the political weakness of the Arab leadership – all of these factors led to the conflict between the Arabs and the Jews that we see it today. Its origin lies, again, in the geo-political plans and the supporting actions of many (non-Muslim and non-Jewish) nations.

Regarding the present Iraqi situation, it is sad that Dr. Suhail has grossly oversimplified and limited his comments to Shiite-Sunni (religious) conflict while totally ignoring the disastrous conditions that have been created through the American hegemony in the interest of Iraqi oil. Iraq was a progressive country and their leader (Saddam), although not very bright, had a secular type governance in place. The question is why the Americans (the self proclaimed leaders of the world) are unable to create peaceful conditions in the country? Let me add here that if the Iraq like living conditions are introduced in Canada today, you may see the same kind of death and destruction taking place. Recall, the loss of power for just one night a few years ago in Ontario, all hell broke loose in big cities; the burglars appeared out of woodwork.

It is my contention that Dr. Suhail has failed to support the claim that the humanity is at crossroads (the opening line of the article) on grounds of the listed seven causes. In my opinion, his thesis lacks in in-depth analysis to provide a thorough understand of the real causes of the human problems and its psyche. An appropriate corrective action cannot be taken unless the real cause of the misery is identified.

Javed I. Chaudry

swarrier yaar, immortality has nothing to with it. there is more regard to human rights today than ever before. the caliphate wishers forget that the average mooslim back in the day was dirt poor, lived till about 40 yrs of age and died of tonsilitis. While the palaces of the mughals in India had lavish gardens and bater sandwiches were being served to the court, and india had 20-25% share of the global trade, Indians (muslims, hindus, buddhists, atheists) were still dirt poor, went hungry often and died prematurely of disease and circumstances.

Dr. Sahibs, article should be followed up by an analysis of how these ills have affected humanity in terms of their degree of impact during antiquity, middle ages, industrial revolution and the American century. Perhaps Masadi can join inthis ambitious research endevour to finally put his mediocre pedigree to work as a sociologist.

#45/#47 Posted by KaalChakra; #46 Posted by swarrier,

Well ... Pul-e-Saraat is described in Islam as 'thinner than a strand of hair, and sharper than a sword'. And one has to walk across it. On one side is raging fire, and on the other a bottomless ravine with countless miseries till eternity. In short, both sides is 'hell'. If one crosses it, there is 'heaven'. This is the imagery. Does it sound like Maugham's 'Razor's Edge'? Or his 'Summing Up'? That was my question.

Swarrier has a point that it is supposed to be on the 'judgment day', of which there is no concept in Hinduism. Hinduism is not eschatological. But Swarrier quoted the Upanishads so there must be something like that. In any event, his criticism is valid that Qura'an indeed says it will appear on the Judgment day. I however believe we walk across it all the time and that's what Qura'an means. But that's going into the territory which is forbidden. We spoke about it once KaalChakra. This line of reason borders on Kufr.

KaalChakra, you are right in as far as "it seems the rope of faith, or following the Quran's (and the Prophet's) narrow and straight path is most meaningful", but not so in saying "By following that path, sufferings can be minimized".

Remember, beneath the feet is the "Razor's Edge" (or Pul-e-Saraat). It hurts and cuts the feet all the time while you are walking across. Following that path does not minimize or alleviate suffering, but teaches how to accept it with dignity and courage, and to keep going.

That's the 'Razor's Edge'.

zee,

agree with you fully, particularly if we keep the focus on early human lives. On earth, reducing suffering is not even the objective. Should have written "by following that path, one eliminates or minimizes error."


"'thinner than a strand of hair, and sharper than a sword'. And one has to walk across it. On one side is raging fire, and on the other a bottomless ravine with countless miseries till eternity. In short, both sides is 'hell'. If one crosses it, there is 'heaven'."

That's a beautiful imagery. Did not know about it. It reinforces the absolute importance of faith, and of following it without introducing error, without taking human liberties with it. Only a few will enter the heaven, those who have been steadfast in their beliefs, pain or no pain. Smallest errors will take people to hell.

It is a very very powerful idea, and Muslims do in genral, seem to take it seriously, but Zee, as far as I know, there is nothing like this in any Indian thought. Perhaps anyone else who knows an equivalent Indian concept can help us out.

correction: on earthly human lives...

Re: # 55

Budhisms 'Eight fold path' is the closest example. It is the same idea, however it is presented in a more concrete actionable item manner, rather than the Quran, which uses allegory. It is perhaps one reason why some Muslims get confused and misinterpret the Quran to extremes of behaviour.

S

#55 Posted by KaalChakra,

Well ... KaalChakra. Look at it like this:

Along life's 'Passages' (remember that book' of the 70s?), one comes across crossroads, with blind fronts wherever one heads. One has to do something, jump somewhere. But on one side there's visible fire, and the other a bottomless pit. In the front, there's nothing but darkness. What does one do? Where to jump? And the feet are hurting all the time as well. One can't stay still either.

That's where the sense of judgment comes in on what to do.

Islam teaches to go headlong into the darkness in front, and not to fall on either side, being scared of the dark ahead. Allah will take care of whatever is ahead.

Does that make any sense at all my friend?

Saima, buddhism is primarily about reducing *earthly* suffering, with nirvana thrown in as an after thought. :(

So much so (consider how buddha arrived at his noble truths) that one can say that reducing earthly sufferings are all that matter to the Buddha.

And there is no concept of those being the only (noble) paths, and there is no faith, no hell...to my knowledge.

What do you say?....

zee # 58, you have a way with words, knowing just how to make theory practical. You have put the case for faith beautifully, and I agree.:)

#57 Posted by SaimaShah,

I had heard about the four-fold (God exists and does not exist, God both exists and does not exist etc ... ) and the six-fold. Now you've come up with an eight-fold.

Best of luck till you make a football team.

1. "To be great is to be misunderstood"
2. "I guess, I should warn you,if I turn out to be particulaly
clear, You've probably misunderstood what I said"
3 " I have suffered from being misunderstood, but I would
have sffered a hell of a lot more if I had been
understood"
Names witheld.


Now please provide a list of CHOWK "GREATS"!..

#60 Posted by KaalChakra,

And the best part is ... that it actually works ....

#62 Posted by echoboom,

LoL ... Echo ... EXPLAIN ... !

LOL, come on, zee, you know what Saima is talking about :)

But there is nothing common between Islam and Buddhism. Buddhism is all earthly stuff with nothing inherently divine.

These are the eight things Buddhas asks his followers to focus on:

View (Ditthi)
Aspiration (Sankappa)
Speech (Vaca)
Action (Kammanta)
Diligence (Vyama)
Means of livelihood (Ajiva) —
Awareness/mindfulness (sati)
Samadhi (I have no idea how to translate it in English - except as total concentration)

None of these are defined as such, except in the broadest of terms - for the maintenance of dharma - social welfare and social order.

Echodada, there is none greater here than echoboom! :)

Zee, it does work IF one can get that little thing called faith. :)

KaalChakra,

I will again emphasize on 'Passages'. If you haven't come across it, do read it. It was a very famous book which came out around the same time as 'Portnoy's Complaint' and 'I'm OK You're OK'.

I will, zee. Was it called just "Passages?" I will try to google it.

#66 Posted by KaalChakra,

Yeah ... that's a problem.

But as I quoted before, Allah seals people's eyes and ears, and Allah chooses whose hearts to light up. Only then, one has Faith. And of-course, Allah knows best.

#68 Posted by KaalChakra,

Yes it was just called 'Passages'. It traced life from birth till death in five year intervals. It's thesis was that life reaches cross-roads each five years.

I will definitely read it, probably my first book in years and years now...

About faith, I liked your description of it as coming and "enveloping" someone. It is much better than faith "grabbing" one - as I have sometimes described it.

In anycase, to compare all of it to Buddhism is not fair to either of them.

Passages: Predictable Crises of Adult Life: Books: Gail Sheehy.

#71 Posted by KaalChakra,

...coming and "enveloping" someone....

Yes. I think I said that to sadna on UP :)

That's what happened to the 'Ninja Chicks', 'Chicks with sticks' etc ... who preferred to be melted alive by the white phosphorous rather than to surrender.

Re: # 33
dear nasah
samandar say milay piasay ko shabnum
bakheeli hay ye razzaqi nahin hay
share more verses

#65 Posted by KaalChakra,

View (Ditthi)
Aspiration (Sankappa)
Speech (Vaca)
Action (Kammanta)
Diligence (Vyama)
Means of livelihood (Ajiva) —
Awareness/mindfulness (sati)
Samadhi (I have no idea how to translate it in English - except as total concentration)

... so Echoboom was right with his term 'DhartiDharma' .. !!

copied and pasted from http://www.thebigview.com/buddhism/eightfoldpath.html

The Noble Eightfold Path describes the way to the end of suffering, as it was laid out by Siddhartha Gautama. It is a practical guideline to ethical and mental development with the goal of freeing the individual from attachments and delusions; and it finally leads to understanding the truth about all things. Together with the Four Noble Truths it constitutes the gist of Buddhism. Great emphasis is put on the practical aspect, because it is only through practice that one can attain a higher level of existence and finally reach Nirvana. The eight aspects of the path are not to be understood as a sequence of single steps, instead they are highly interdependent principles that have to be seen in relationship with each other.

1. Right View

Right view is the beginning and the end of the path, it simply means to see and to understand things as they really are and to realise the Four Noble Truth. As such, right view is the cognitive aspect of wisdom. It means to see things through, to grasp the impermanent and imperfect nature of worldly objects and ideas, and to understand the law of karma and karmic conditioning. Right view is not necessarily an intellectual capacity, just as wisdom is not just a matter of intelligence. Instead, right view is attained, sustained, and enhanced through all capacities of mind. It begins with the intuitive insight that all beings are subject to suffering and it ends with complete understanding of the true nature of all things. Since our view of the world forms our thoughts and our actions, right view yields right thoughts and right actions.

2. Right Intention

While right view refers to the cognitive aspect of wisdom, right intention refers to the volitional aspect, i.e. the kind of mental energy that controls our actions. Right intention can be described best as commitment to ethical and mental self-improvement. Buddha distinguishes three types of right intentions: 1. the intention of renunciation, which means resistance to the pull of desire, 2. the intention of good will, meaning resistance to feelings of anger and aversion, and 3. the intention of harmlessness, meaning not to think or act cruelly, violently, or aggressively, and to develop compassion.

3. Right Speech

Right speech is the first principle of ethical conduct in the eightfold path. Ethical conduct is viewed as a guideline to moral discipline, which supports the other principles of the path. This aspect is not self-sufficient, however, essential, because mental purification can only be achieved through the cultivation of ethical conduct. The importance of speech in the context of Buddhist ethics is obvious: words can break or save lives, make enemies or friends, start war or create peace. Buddha explained right speech as follows: 1. to abstain from false speech, especially not to tell deliberate lies and not to speak deceitfully, 2. to abstain from slanderous speech and not to use words maliciously against others, 3. to abstain from harsh words that offend or hurt others, and 4. to abstain from idle chatter that lacks purpose or depth. Positively phrased, this means to tell the truth, to speak friendly, warm, and gently and to talk only when necessary.

4. Right Action

The second ethical principle, right action, involves the body as natural means of expression, as it refers to deeds that involve bodily actions. Unwholesome actions lead to unsound states of mind, while wholesome actions lead to sound states of mind. Again, the principle is explained in terms of abstinence: right action means 1. to abstain from harming sentient beings, especially to abstain from taking life (including suicide) and doing harm intentionally or delinquently, 2. to abstain from taking what is not given, which includes stealing, robbery, fraud, deceitfulness, and dishonesty, and 3. to abstain from sexual misconduct. Positively formulated, right action means to act kindly and compassionately, to be honest, to respect the belongings of others, and to keep sexual relationships harmless to others. Further details regarding the concrete meaning of right action can be found in the Precepts.

5. Right Livelihood

Right livelihood means that one should earn one's living in a righteous way and that wealth should be gained legally and peacefully. The Buddha mentions four specific activities that harm other beings and that one should avoid for this reason: 1. dealing in weapons, 2. dealing in living beings (including raising animals for slaughter as well as slave trade and prostitution), 3. working in meat production and butchery, and 4. selling intoxicants and poisons, such as alcohol and drugs. Furthermore any other occupation that would violate the principles of right speech and right action should be avoided.

6. Right Effort

Right effort can be seen as a prerequisite for the other principles of the path. Without effort, which is in itself an act of will, nothing can be achieved, whereas misguided effort distracts the mind from its task, and confusion will be the consequence. Mental energy is the force behind right effort; it can occur in either wholesome or unwholesome states. The same type of energy that fuels desire, envy, aggression, and violence can on the other side fuel self-discipline, honesty, benevolence, and kindness. Right effort is detailed in four types of endeavours that rank in ascending order of perfection: 1. to prevent the arising of unarisen unwholesome states, 2. to abandon unwholesome states that have already arisen, 3. to arouse wholesome states that have not yet arisen, and 4. to maintain and perfect wholesome states already arisen.

7. Right Mindfulness

Right mindfulness is the controlled and perfected faculty of cognition. It is the mental ability to see things as they are, with clear consciousness. Usually, the cognitive process begins with an impression induced by perception, or by a thought, but then it does not stay with the mere impression. Instead, we almost always conceptualise sense impressions and thoughts immediately. We interpret them and set them in relation to other thoughts and experiences, which naturally go beyond the facticity of the original impression. The mind then posits concepts, joins concepts into constructs, and weaves those constructs into complex interpretative schemes. All this happens only half consciously, and as a result we often see things obscured. Right mindfulness is anchored in clear perception and it penetrates impressions without getting carried away. Right mindfulness enables us to be aware of the process of conceptualisation in a way that we actively observe and control the way our thoughts go. Buddha accounted for this as the four foundations of mindfulness: 1. contemplation of the body, 2. contemplation of feeling (repulsive, attractive, or neutral), 3. contemplation of the state of mind, and 4. contemplation of the phenomena.

8. Right Concentration

The eighth principle of the path, right concentration, refers to the development of a mental force that occurs in natural consciousness, although at a relatively low level of intensity, namely concentration. Concentration in this context is described as one-pointedness of mind, meaning a state where all mental faculties are unified and directed onto one particular object. Right concentration for the purpose of the eightfold path means wholesome concentration, i.e. concentration on wholesome thoughts and actions. The Buddhist method of choice to develop right concentration is through the practice of meditation. The meditating mind focuses on a selected object. It first directs itself onto it, then sustains concentration, and finally intensifies concentration step by step. Through this practice it becomes natural to apply elevated levels concentration also in everyday situations.


Also you can use this :http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=eight+fold+path&meta=

In fact the JIddu Krishnamurthi one is more explanatory

http://www.buddhanet.net/bvk_study/bvk216.htm

as in it gives more references for you to check enjoy your reading zeemax


Introduction:


The Noble 8-fold Path (Ariyo atthangiko maggo):

1. Right Speech (Samma Vaca)

Sila (precepts or morality) 2. Right Action (Samma Kammo)
3. Right Livelihood (Samma Ajivo)



1. Right Exertion or right effort (Samma Vayamo)

Samadhi (concentration) 2. Right Awareness (Samma Sati)

3. Right Concentration (Samma Samadhi)



1. Right Aspiration (Samma Sankappo)

Panna (wisdom or insight)
2. Right Understanding (Samma Ditthi)

Buddha avoided all extremes, whether of Self Indulgence and Self Mortification; of Eternity or Annihilation; of Complete Indeterminism (adhiccasamuppanna) or Accidentalism and Strict Determinism (Niyati-vada) or Fatalism; or of any other 'ism' that tends towards extremes. His Way of Life, as he explained in his first sermon - is the Middle Path (majjhim patipada) - is a teaching that has direct bearing on the lives of mankind, a practical application, without bias, prejudice or emotion - the active and practical aspect of the entire teaching of the Master. It is not mere speculation, philosophizing and rationalizing, for it entails engaging oneself in the real task of applying each and every factor of the path to life; in coming to grips with the true meaning of life, for the sole purpose of freedom from the taints that haunt the human heart....


-Pg 88-89, the Buddha's ancient path, Thera Piyadassi

The noble eight fold path is not a philosophy or a dogma or a mechanical ritual. It is an art of living-a way of life-the path as shown by the Buddha. It is actually living the teachings-'going into' the teachings. The perfection of the noble path is insight or wisdom (samma ditthi). The noble 8 fold path is divided into Sila (morality), samadhi (concentration) and panna (wisdom/insight) but these are not rigid water tight compartments-they flow into each other and help each other culminating in insight. Anyone living a life of real wisdom/insight from moment to moment will be a righteous and virtuous person naturally and effortlessly-for they go hand in hand.


Whenever Lord Buddha talked about Sati (awareness) He said that awareness and insight go hand in hand (atapi sampajano satima-Maha satipatthana Sutta) The Buddha never instructed to develop mere concentration or forced concentration of a narrow or unwholesome mind.


All the 8 limbs of the 8 fold path have the prefix 'samma' which is translated as 'Right' but it can be more accurately translated as 'holistic'. For something to be holistic it has to be natural, choiceless and wholesome - with the perfume of 'what is' - which is insight. It cannot be a rigid mechanical system.


The noble 8 fold path is the 'pathless path' to truth-to reality-to liberation. It is 'The path' (ekayano maggo) because it shows the way to purification (visuddhimagga) but it is the 'pathless path' because it is not a beaten track or a mechanical ritual or a technique or a method. To walk on this path one has to be in touch with the reality 'as it is' (yathabhuta) and as the reality keeps changing (anicca or impermanence), one is aware of it choicelessly from moment to moment (yathabhuta nana dassanam). The reality keeps changing from moment to moment and one is aware of this change (at the level of sensations) from moment to moment-this changing reality makes the 'path' the 'pathless path'.



The view of reality as it is becomes his right view. Thought of reality as it is becomes his right thought. Effort toward reality as it is becomes his right effort. Awareness of reality as it is becomes his right awareness. Concentration on reality as it is becomes his right concentration. His actions of body and speech and his livelihood become truly purified. Thus the Noble Eightfold Path advances him toward development and fulfillment.


-M. 149, Maha-Salayatanika Sutta


"Those truths of which before I had only heard, now I dwell having experienced them directly within the body, and I observe them with penetrating insight."


-S. XLVIII (IV). v. 10 (50), Apana Sutta (spoken by Sariputta, chief disciple of the Buddha)

#76 Posted by Dash_Dot =,

You do all that ... but then you die ... :) That's the problem. :)

damn formatting #77


Sila (precepts or morality)
1. Right Speech (Samma Vaca)
2. Right Action (Samma Kammo)
3. Right Livelihood (Samma Ajivo)

Samadhi (concentration)
1. Right Exertion or right effort (Samma Vayamo)
2. Right Awareness (Samma Sati)
3. Right Concentration (Samma Samadhi)

Panna (Wisdom or insight)

1. Right Aspiration (Samma Sankappo)
2. Right Understanding (Samma Ditthi)

In way Wheel o time is right but also incorrect - samadhi is actually a super group. Though some interpret it the way wheel o time does.

#78 no that is you, not me. ;)

thankfully S.G. Buddha lived in simpler times..if he was around now, he might declare closed markets to the main cause of human misery LOL

AAh:
The naked-swami seemingly asleep in lotus-position atop the Nanga-parbat.........
and suddenly disturbed by the ghoulish nightmare about central-heating.
_____________________________________________________________


my favorite Uncle who was quite fair-skinned to begin with , and looked an angraiz when the angraiz strutted about in a sea of black and blackened faces in the then quite civilized Madras & Bombay.

He would have been much better off staying over there and cashed on his great Gregory Peck double-image, or maybe he was really even better looking than Greg..because I had not seen Greg. off-screen.

Anyway this Uncle who was not only my favorite Uncle but I was his most favorite nephew as well.

But My Uncle was destined to prove that a man cannot live by good-looks alone..He must also be where his good-looks would
mean something to the world and when he becomes Vilayat-paas, the locals blackened, browned, and well-done in the sun would prostrate themselves..for to his way of thinking merely running helter-skelter to make room for him was simply won't do. He wanted to be trteated lie the local asstt. Commisssioner...a godhead!

To come to the poiont of this boring & insipidly run-away story, he became one the the hippies in U.S..not the genuine
Mia Farrow or Beatle type or Wood-Stock type but the kind who loves his management job withn all the perks but is mad at the world because he is not getting a raise or is being by-passed to favour the one with the blonde hair & blue Eyes. my Uncle was feeeling increasingly Desi those days and like Salman Rushdie a sudden pang of homelessness he felt for a country he had despised so much that when he boarded the HMS Batori in 1953 he spat on the dockyard when the boat had inched westward.

Well I should mention that he had married a gori in those lazy hazy crazy days of the 60's and was a week-end living-room hippie, just like our Faiz-sahib was a commie when he was unemployed..and he was unemployed because he was thouight to be a commie, but he had become a commie in the first place because he was denied a job because faiz's father died not just penniless but saddled Faiz with debt..so tyhe girl abandopned faiz & Faiz had no choice but to level the playingfield single handedly ( sorry for this aside)

Same with my favourite Uncle..his eyes welled up with the emotion which had never peered through his eyes nose and throat after that healthy spat on th e dockyard. Now he knew the minus the blonde hair & blue eyes he was a Desi, in fact a Kallo in goraa-land. Nostalgia was setting in, Relatives were now from afar looked kind and caring & he started appreciating the achaar & aap which an occasional drop-in woyuld deliver to him sent by his DEsi friends & Relatives.

He announced that he wants to go to India..part of it was the Mia Farrow Nepal factor, part was because the goaree was head over heels in love with India ( She knew nothing or didn't give much thought about Pakistan or Muslims) . She was in love with India because an Indian had proposed to her and suddenly Rajaah Swamis Snakes magicians etc ect were important words in her life. She attended Maharishi Mahesh Yogi Seminars and wanted to go to India to meet a real SWami....
.................................

My Uncle tells me that they visited theusual circuit of Jaisalmir & Jaipur, the arm-chair hippie route in action, and they arrived at an abandoned & crumbling Mandir. They were told about this place because the goree was very adamant to go & visit a genuine swami. What they did not know that she having enquired so much in the city suchkind of Swami that someone had decided to act out the role.
They paid bigbugs..and only the goree did not know of the arrangement.

He sat there in his magnificent lotu-position..and goree & uncle were intructed with all the rituals. Like the charcater in th Razor's Edge, the goaree when she saw that the Swami has half-opened his eyes & instructed her to remove all her bangles & cash & lthrow them out towards the desert sand which the little urchins, crow like, were waiting to pick up and seemigly running away...

and then the Swami burped..I mean a real real burp..goree auntee almost fell off the craggy cliff..ragained her posture and in a trembling whining voice aske if she could ask THE question....

The Swami asked her to repeat this question 3 times & each time he burped & burped & burped...and waved his breath towards my Uncle Z& Aunt..& my goree aunt was impressed..here was the real spicy onion garlic swami..not that sanitized version in US.

The question she had aske the Maharaaj was the perrenial one " " Swami jee what is the meaning of life?"

The SWami gazed at her in astonishment..as if telling her such a simple question & what a stupd woman..but the let his facial muscles relax..looke right as if about to relieve a secret.ooked left as if of suspicious of something..then bade goree auntie to approach his lordship...They promptly
did.

Then he intently looked at them, from his lotus position he raised one of his thight at an angle as if about to fall on side; goree thought he will be levitating..but the the Swami let out such a loud & stinking fart that the Uncle & auntee
were wonderstruck & almost hypnotize..never mind that their nasal passages were full of genuine garam masaalaa.

The crows in the nearby tree startled & saying Caw caw flew away to a far off tree.
____________________________________________________________
Must be having typos etc..I never read what I write...I'll fixz them later when out of the writer's trance.

yeah, echo dada, that needs a total re-write, at least better formatting to give it some punch.

--------------

Zee, dharatidharma is exactly right. In relation to Islam, we are talking chalk and cheese. Only the most glib or dishonest will call them in anyway similar (say, both are matter!).

Re: # 74

for your kind Dr. Sohail:
tabeeut apni tunha ruhravee kee
choRa laiee humaiN hur carwaN say

Kaal:
Fixed..now on iLOG.

thanks.

#82 Posted by echoboom

I think this real story about a Swami in India beats your fake story

FAITH
Sneeze...Ah, God Bless You
In the interiors of Tamil Nadu, these freak swamis are a phenomenon in themselves


S. Anand

http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20060320&fname=Faith&si d=1


At first glance, there is little to set apart the village of Amachiapuram, 20 km north of Madurai, from other dusty, nondescript hamlets in the region. On the highway, as advised by a local reporter, we ask for the Mookkusali Samiyar (Snot Swami)—also known as the Kulandai-varam Samiyar (Child-Blessing Swami)—at a teashop, so that we reach the right place. At Amachiapuram, we are led to Arumugam the tailor, the man who will shortly transform himself into the snot-spewing swami.
The long-locked man is just about five feet tall and an undernourished 40 kg. Clad in a yellow veshti, he lives in the Adi Dravidar (Dalit) Colony, where the roofs of most of the 27 government-built one-room houses have collapsed.

Seated on a gunnysack, Arumugam pedals his sewing machine, stitching a green blouse. It’s early on a Friday, and before the clients turn up, he asks us to fetch him two 180 ml bottles of Cosmopolitan whiskey, two plastic glasses, two water sachets, a packet of savoury ‘mixture’, some pickle and five idlis. Of course, the ‘prasadam’ will be of even greater value if you add ganja, pan parag and Ganesh beedi to the list. The man at the state-owned liquor shop 2 km away knows at once: Is all of this for the Snot Swami? he asks.
After a turmeric-scrub bath in a lotus-strewn pond, Arumugam drapes himself in a sari, sits below a tree near the Karupp