Lal Masjid: Lessons Learnt

Hehe, mohar, having promoted extremism, I am not going to gang up against ajeya. or against arjun. We need both, very much, along with the wide Indian spectrum right in the middle.

We will be fine. I think of Indian movies as our true symbol - they can frustrate everyone of us; are they too American? are they too regressive? no, they are just Indian: only Indians can make them. Whether they are Tamil, Telugu, or Hindi films, no Hollywood can be a threat to them, because they have something of their own - we may laugh at whatever it is, because it is very human, but it is there - inside them. :)

And Ajeya's remark on slapping people on valentine's day is particularly troubling... Hope he has not carried out that threat already - that would be bordering on talibanism... or shiv-sena-ism, if you will... :)

Kaal

Good post... Ajeya is unnecessarily hung-up on semantics : "Mummy-Daddy" and "Bobbie-Pinky"... even though I haven't heard anybody in US named as "Pinky"...

This is just semantics - Just like "God" doesn't mean a western god... Words like Mom and Dad are just part of English Language - which is our legacy as much anybody else's... English is as much an "Indian" language as it is a western language...

If one don't like the words Mummy-daddy - one may as well stop using the words like "table", "chair", "internet", "web" etc etc and use it's indian equivalent - if one can find one...

Sorry to say this - but Ajeya is just being silly and frivolous... His arguments sound increasingly like chicken little - the sky is falling - Indian culture is being taken over... where as nothing of that sort is happening...

Indians world over are known to tenaciously hang on to their indian-ness - generations after generations - in totally foreign lands[sometimes to their own detriment]... we see that all the time in US... So to think that they will just roll over into whole-scale westernization in their own homeland is just plain ridiculous...

#206 Posted by ajeya on July 30, 2007 12:53:12 pm

you've mistaken me for someone who gives a roden't rear..

the people have made their decision...pappaji: if you don't like it, stufff a dhoti in it...

#200 Posted by KaalChakra

[Ajeya, those who TOTALLY stop "aping" others invariably end up stopping all "learning."
You must know, learning is not just aping, but a good deal of learning is "aping."]

Not true. There is a very thick line between learning from others, and monkey-see-monkey-do.


[Some aping will create some monkeys. We can welcome that, for sheer entertainment value. ]

One or two monkey-men like this half-breed arjun here are good for occasional entertainment, but too many is a nuisance.

#201 Posted by arjun2

Criticism don't feel good to your half-breed brain? Stick a baseball cap down your gullet.

And btw, Jesus did NOT have a virgin birth. A Roman soldier was porking Mary when Joseph was away. It's true. Really.

HAHA, zee, just returned to share this somewhat amusing idea. Hindu liberals are Hindus who have "faith" in yesterday's man-made beliefs. :)

(So while rightwingers like me might benefit from Echo's insights, liberal Hindus blindly ape people who actually have divine faith. Hear them say: This (any man-made belief which could be, verifiably, empirically, proven wrong) is so because that is what I like to believe, and nothing you can say will make any difference to me, now or ever.

OK, enough liberal bashing for the day :)

Zee, because Echo is the boss :)

But really, zee, a culture/religion that is self-avowedly man-made has to constantly rely on human intelligence, that means - learn, and find ways of living with all others in peace and honor.

Hindu liberals are a pitiable lot precisely because they neither have Islam's or Christianity's faith, nor do care to heed Hinduism's call to constantly learn and change.

#198 Posted by KaalChakra,

How come what both Ajeya and you are saying sounds like Echoboom??????????

#195 Posted by KaalChakra

Like Islam, Indian culture pulls people in, on its own. It just draws very different sort of people, and that raises important issues that we need to appreciate, and prepare for (so we can live in peace, given the inescapable contradictions, therein).

This is so true, but they won't listen. They would rather kill and get killed.

#193 Posted by ajeya on July 30, 2007 12:10:46 am


Explain to me EXACTLY HOW calling your mother and father "Mummy" and "Daddy" from "mataji" and "pitaji" or "ma" and "baba" is somehow "moving towards Universal Values"?


Don't like it? stuff a dhoti in it...

Ajeya, those who TOTALLY stop "aping" others invariably end up stopping all "learning." You must know, learning is not just aping, but a good deal of learning is "aping."

Some aping will create some monkeys. We can welcome that, for sheer entertainment value. But we will become all monkeys ONLY if we ourselves had nothing of real value to offer in a free exchange devoid of trickery or coercion.

I don't think that is the case at all. That why, ajeya, have confidence. There will be monkeys in India, and monkeys in America. Others can learn, from one another, to our mutual benefit.

So long as these numbers DON'T overwhelm those of Indians who...

LOL, Ajyea, my feeling is that most Indians grow out of that mummy daddy phase after they have crossed their teen years. Some people may not, but that is ok. So long as these numbers totally overwhelm those of Indians are more comfortabel in others, these remain just surface level attributes of culture. Like clothes, food, modes of worship etc. Don't we Indians revel in our differences? Isn't that our greatest message?

But yes, if there was an effort by some to create a new "Mummy-Daddy" culture throughout, to eliminate all others, one must, as a matter of duty, oppose them tooth and nail, on seashore and on land, as it were. :)

#195 Posted by KaalChakra

[All those things are simultaneously true. Ajeya has to have more confidence. Indian people need, above all, to succeed, and in order to succeed, they should have every reasonable freedom to be as creative and open as they can be.]

What does success or creativity have to do with calling your parents "Mummy" and "Daddy"? Looks like apeing the West, to me.

#194 Posted by DrDr

[ajeya u r tilting @ the windmill & r exercised over trivial things - ]

"Tilting at windmills" means taking on impossible challenges - challenges which are futile. This is hardly that.
And it is not trivial either. But if it seems trivial to you, why are you arguing about it?


[again, gender equality, equality of all humans b4 the law, equal rights r universal values - we in the west have discovered them a little ahead of traditional societies - that doesnt make them western values ]

You're wrong on ALL counts. This is where education becomes important. Before arguing on "gut feel", read a little.

I could give you examples from Indian history - from Hindu scriptures as well as from later times - when women were priests and teachers many thousands of years ago. But instead, here is a portion of Charter of Human Rights by King Cyrus the Great of Persia around 580 BC (when your people in the west were hunting wild pigs and each other). This charter of Cyrus the Great, a baked-clay Aryan language (Old Persian) cuneiform cylinder, was discovered in 1878 in excavation of the site of Babylon. In it, Cyrus the Great described his human treatment of the inhabitants of Babylonia after its conquest by the Iranians.


Now that I put the crown of kingdom of Iran, Babylon, and the nations of the four directions on the head with the help of (Ahura) Mazda, I announce that I will respect the traditions, customs and religions of the nations of my empire and never let any of my governors and subordinates look down on or insult them until I am alive. From now on, till (Ahura) Mazda grants me the kingdom favor, I will impose my monarchy on no nation. Each is free to accept it , and if any one of them rejects it , I never resolve on war to reign. Until I am the king of Iran, Babylon, and the nations of the four directions, I never let anyone oppress any others, and if it occurs , I will take his or her right back and penalize the oppressor.

And until I am the monarch, I will never let anyone take possession of movable and landed properties of the others by force or without compensation. Until I am alive, I prevent unpaid, forced labor. To day, I announce that everyone is free to choose a religion. People are free to live in all regions and take up a job provided that they never violate other's rights.

No one could be penalized for his or her relatives' faults. I prevent slavery and my governors and subordinates are obliged to prohibit exchanging men and women as slaves within their own ruling domains. Such a traditions should be exterminated the world over.


The document has been hailed as the first charter of human rights, and in 1971 the United Nations was published translation of it in all the official U.N. languages.