Lal Masjid: Lessons Learnt

#154 Posted by mohar11

[The bottom line is: success... people are drawn towards success... the tremendous success of america has drawn everybody towards their culture... on similar note, the ongoing success of china is now drawing americans towards the chinese... these days, american children are being advised to learn mandarin, because chinese are supposed to be the future power...]

Yes. But they still call their parents "father" and "mother". Always will.


[In a much limited way - same is true for India too... people in west are already taking an inerest...]

Would have been nice if Indians were slightly less proud of that fact.


[So all you culture-warriors - if you need to see american kids going all out binging on bhang on holi - then the work is cut out for you... go work hard and succeed... ]

You're not understanding the issue very well, mohar. I wish you would not use these martial themes, but in any case, this is not a "WAR", the question is not how to make westerners become more "Indian". The question is how not to forget OUR OWN values and traditions - which I have the highest regard for, in the world.


[The kid you are ready to slap for sending out a valentine day card already knows that... he is going to make it happen... he is going to make western people dance to bollywood tunes...]

That was never the aim. You misunderstood the whole issue.


[he is the one who will win this culture war for you... that would be the supreme irony, ain't it?...]

No "wars" here. Therefore no irony.

#152 Posted by mohar11

[we are all free people - each can decide for their own...]

I never debated that. Of course we are.


[If indian culture survived 200 years of western colonization, it can survive the onslaught of valentine day and mother's day... how do you know the kid will abandon his parents just because he wishes his mom on Mother's day?... Is he any less attached to his parents because of that?]

The locality where I come from in India - is filled with lonely old couples who have worked night and day and spent their last rupee to give their son a good education. Now that son is living abroad with his westernized wife - he has named his son "Bobbie" and his daughter "Pinky" - once in a while he will call up his "Mom" and "Dad" and say "how are you, Dad", and send a card on "Father's Day". But when the "Dad" has a terrifying bout of ischemia in the middle of the night in India with nobody but his terrified wife by his side, he is busy living it up in the USA with his wife wearing the latest thongs and showing off the butt-crack to good effect.


[.. how many people are abandoning their parents today across the land, none of them have been exposed the mother's day in their childhood, have they?...]

Maybe not Mother's day, but there has been this sense that India's culture and traditions are just "hypocrisy" and "old-fashioned nonsense" for the last few decades - to be westernized is commonly understood as being "advanced". People who are in their forties were as much a victim of this low-class thought process as kids are today.


[You guys want to fight culture wars - go ahead...]

I don't speak for zeemax, but you seem to be the one fighting against your shadow - your own arguments.


[people have been doing that all the time, in all ages... it does not work... culture is always fluid, it has to be...
if you stifle it in name of purity, then it will stagnate and die out...

Just let people be... everything will be just fine...]

Actually this is not necessarily true. There are MANY cultures that have died out under pressure from other cultures - the Native American culture, for example. And EVEN IF our culture survives - this does not excuse the absymally low self-respect and class exhibited by Indians nowadays.


[BTW Ajeya - just curious - how old are you? ]

Old enough to look at things from a distance in perspective, and judge dispassionately.

mohar11, zeemax

Globalization is ineviteble. With the distances shrinking, and the populations becoming more racially mixed across the world, there is bound to be cross-cultural pollinations. There is NOTHING wrong in that. In fact, for cultures to grow and evolve, this is absolutely vital. We don't realize it, but cross-cultural pollination has shaped our history through the millenia. You realize this when you see Moorish architecture in Hispanic strip malls in the US. Yoga is a household word across the USA and the world. I don't have a problem with any of this.


As far as the young go - there are youths in the Netherlands and in Austria that are dressing and sounding like rappers from NYC. Most kids around the world are easily influenced - they are unthinking and uncritical - they go with the flow. BUT THEY USUALLY GROW OUT OF IT. Look at a young businessman from Germany or Sweden - he knows that what he did when he was young was part of his growing up process. BUT he is rooted in his country's culture and history. HE DOESN"T REALLY THINK THAT THE RAPPERS FROM NYC ARE CULTURALLY SUPERIOR TO HIS CULTURE OR TRADITIONS. But Indians today, of MY GENERATION EVEN, AS WELL AS THE YOUNG GENERATIONS, ARE DIFFERENT. They are convinced that our forefathers were all wrong. They are ASHAMED - ASHAMED to call their own parents "mataji" or "pitaji", or "ma" or "baba". They think it is some kind of advancement to become more westernized - they think that ALL THEY HAVE TO DO TO BECOME MORE ECONOMICALLY SUCCESSFUL LIKE THE WEST IS TO BECOME MORE LIKE THEM. IMITATE THEM, AND THE REST WILL FALL IN PLACE. They don't realize that the men and women that are responsible for India's achievements are mostly people from traditional Indian backgrounds.

I had a discussion with Hamidm long time ago somewhat along these lines. He felt that eating with your hands was uncivilized. THIS IS PRECISELY THE KIND OF THINKING I AM TALKING ABOUT. Some years ago, some reporter overheard George Bush senior talking to his son at a party. He was joking with his son - referring to the women at the party as "pussies". In India, the slum dwellers that make a dollar a day, who squat on railroad tracks to defecate, WOULD NEVER talk about "pussies" with HIS son - THAT'S CALLED CULTURE. 6-lane highways is not culture. Conserving the rainforests is not culture. Culture and civilization - at least in MY book have to do with different things - things that are much less tangible. Gandhi had many flaws, but I really like a comment he made to a Western reporter once - when asked what he thought of "western Civilization", he said - "I think it's a great idea".

#159

sorry to interject .. if an american company opens a sports shoe factory in china or call center in india, poor people in those countries get jobs .. the new employer knows nothing about local customs, religious differences or caste system .. all he is looking for is the most hard working employees .. and that will break all kinds of social barriers in the developing economies.

Americans will loose jobs and will need to reinvent themselves and learn to compete again. I think if handled with little more benefits and retraining, western workers' opposition can be overcome.

Globalization has potential to be win/win for all.

But Mohar, there's one observation I need to make.

Globalisation is based on trickle-down, and that doesn't work.

Mohar #152, #154

Excellent posts.

#155 Posted by bubba,

MQM is already marginalized as a linguistic party. PPP has no direction other then slogans and cannot deliver because they don't have a team. MMA minus Qazi Hussain is nothing and is now discredited because of Qazi's resignation and Fazlur-Rehman's twists and turns. That leaves the Sharif brothers. And they are the best option, being centrists and with a professional team which has delivered twice.

#154 Posted by mohar11,

Mohar you know something? You're right.

Re: # 130 Posted by HP on July 29, 2007 12:01:49 am

For Pakistan's sake I hope my optimism turns out to be correct. Why do you think that all those leaf readers amongst the current crop of leading politicians are gravitating towards the PPP?

I still think that given enough political momentum, urbanites in Punjab may still want the mainstream political parties. As for MMA, their usefulness has just about evaporated.

My observation is from the perspective of huge investments that is just waiting for entry into Pakistan, all the way from Uncle Sam to China, and Saudi Arabia. Those industrialists cannot afford to leave all those labors that are crowding into Pakistani cities just go wasted.

For MQM, there is only one option left and that is to ask for forgiveness for the May 12 mayhem. For the past so many speeches that the tough guy was giving from his London hideout over telephone lines was to his party members only. The mafia boss will have to be completely marginalized and put back in his place. After all the bureaucratic culture of this group cannot be visionary.

This brand of Mohajirs is not acceptable or welcome by the people of Karachi. Sure, they will have to get some sort of constituency, and that is the place for PPP to work hard.

The bottom line is: success... people are drawn towards success... the tremendous success of america has drawn everybody towards their culture... on similar note, the ongoing success of china is now drawing americans towards the chinese... these days, american children are being advised to learn mandarin, because chinese are supposed to be the future power...

In a much limited way - same is true for India too... people in west are already taking an inerest...

So all you culture-warriors - if you need to see american kids going all out binging on bhang on holi - then the work is cut out for you... go work hard and succeed...

The kid you are ready to slap for sending out a valentine day card already knows that... he is going to make it happen... he is going to make western people dance to bollywood tunes... he is the one who will win this culture war for you... that would be the supreme irony, ain't it?...

#152 Posted by mohar11,

Hate to admit it, but you do have a point ...

zee, ajeya

The "effect" of globalization is NOT as one-sided as you think... curry is now british national food, bollywood has broken some grounds in the west... chinese cultural stuff is widely observed in US...

It's not the same level as western culture seeping into eastern shores, but neverhtless...

we are all free people - each can decide for their own... If indian culture survived 200 years of western colonization, it can survive the onslaught of valentine day and mother's day... how do you know the kid will abandon his parents just because he wishes his mom on Mother's day?... Is he any less attached to his parents because of that? ... how many people are abandoning their parents today across the land, none of them have been exposed the mother's day in their childhood, have they?...

You guys want to fight culture wars - go ahead... people have been doing that all the time, in all ages... it does not work... culture is always fluid, it has to be...
if you stifle it in name of purity, then it will stagnate and die out...

Just let people be... everything will be just fine...

+++

BTW Ajeya - just curious - how old are you?

#147 Posted by arjun2,

I don't know why you're sticking to that point. It is true that the Afghan FM was fired on Pakistan objection. That was the proper thing to do on that PARTICULAR day by US. If the predator came the next week, it was the proper thing to do on that PARTICULAR day by US.

Arjun ... you are quite smart but your analytical base is missing.

#148 Posted by arjun2,

Yes. Pakistanis are more cruel than the Indians. I agree.

HP,

But perhaps, whilst we're having this conversation, shall I remind you that just yesterday you were saying it was all a drama. (actually tahmed32 was saying that too ... but you're in a different league)

Have you changed your opinion since then?

#146 Posted by zeemax on July 29, 2007 1:59:23 am


Yes all these belonged to the 'baked ninja chicks' as per you.


i got them from a paki blog...regardless, don't you think it's strange that the indian army has never used WP against the jihadis in kashmir while the army of allah's chosen people just shaked and baked a bunch of school girls?