Militarily Troubled Pakistan and Terribly Administered Tribals

#148 Posted by adamkhan,

You could be right. Though I got the impression that the NAP wallas considered Kharian a bit lower down in the social order than even the Punjabiyan and Hazarawaals in NWFP.

In any event, the renaming move is a good one, though I would have preferred the name Khyber to Afghania :)

Name Change Request??

Islamists want Pakistan province called Afghania
ISLAMABAD: An Islamic alliance ruling Pakistan's North West Frontier Province bordering Afghanistan has proposed changing the region's name to "Afghania", a provincial minister said yesterday.

The NWFP government's request to the federal government in Islamabad is likely to rekindle an old debate over the name of the region dominated by ethnic Pashtuns, who live on both sides of the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan.

"Constitutionally there is no bar on us to rename the province on our own but we want to resolve this issue in an amicable manner," Malik Zafar Azam, NWFP's law minister said.

He said the provincial government had conducted a survey to find an alternative name for the region, designated NWFP since the days of the British Raj in pre-partition India, and most people favoured "Afghania".

"We have firmed up our proposal and plan to put it before the federal government's inter-provincial co-ordination committee in its next meeting." Central government officials were unavailable for comment.

Pashtun nationalists have long demanded the old colonial name be changed as it only indicates a geographical location rather than the ethnicity of its inhabitants, as in the other three Pakistan provinces - Punjab for Punjabis, Sindh for Sindhis and Baluchistan for Baluchis.

The nationalists had proposed "Pakhtunkhwa" as the new name for the province after its Pashtun, or Pakhtun population, but the central government is fearful it would revive old differences with Afghanistan over the Pashtun territory, known as Pashtoonistan, straddling both sides of the border.

Afghanistan has never recognised the 2,640km frontier, known as the Durand Line after the British colonialist who drew it. Afghans say the border robbed Afghanistan of land it traditionally held and it unfairly divides Pashtuns.

The Pashtoonistan issue strained relations between the two neighbours in the 1950s and 1960s, although it faded after Islamists gained influence in the border areas in the 1970s.

Observers say the new proposal by the Islamic Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal alliance, which rose to power by exploiting anti-American sentiments in the region in 2002 after US intervention in Afghanistan, could be a move to win sympathies of Pashtun tribes ahead of elections due later this year or in early 2008.

l US Democratic presidential candidate Senator Barack Obama said yesterday the US must be willing to strike Al Qaeda targets in Pakistan with or without the approval of the Pakistani government.

He warned President Pervez Musharraf that he must do more to shut down terrorist operations in his country and evict foreign fighters under his presidency, or Pakistan will risk a US troop invasion and losing hundreds of millions of dollars in US military aid.

#150 Posted by GT

“I am saying, of-course influenced by the writings of echo, that the concerns of the common Pakistani (with substantial religious ideals) are not being heeded by the ruling class.”

That is where the error in assessment is. Echo does not know squat about Pakistani situation. There are small pockets of Islamist support in a few Punjabi cities otherwise most of their support is in the tribal areas and parts of NWFP and that is not the Majority of Pakistani having Islamist ideals, that is pure garbage. Majority of Pakistani would vote Benazir, Sharif and other groups of Muslim leagues and none of them is Islamist.

Putting together small numbers of suicide bombers, does not in any way mean that the bombers represent the Islamist/religious ideals. You need to distinguish between the criminals (the suicide bombers in Pakistan) and peaceful vote wielding people.

“The inability to participate in the political process is frustrating.”

Yeah it is frustrating for all but the Islamists are not looking to participate in the political process. They are trying to end the political process. Suicide Bombings and Lal Maseet don’t promote political process.

GDP in ppp.

HP:

Yes, delegating the right to make decisions, to a small section of the people reduces transaction costs. In such a sense 'elites' rule. If people delegate to the same elite over the long run, then there is no problem as such but it does raise suspicion. However, when the same 'elite' remains in business with or without being delegated power by the people then that is troublesome. Especially when this ruling section is totally removed from the needs and aspirations of the common man. In this sense Pakistan is much different from say today's Spain but has a strong resemblance to Franco's rule.

I am not saying that the mullahs are not a part of the ruling class in Pakistan. I do not remember Urstruly, echo or zeemax making that claim. I am saying, of-course influenced by the writings of echo, that the concerns of the common Pakistani (with substantial religious ideals) are not being heeded by the ruling class. The inability to participate in the political process is frustrating. And the frustration is being kept alive by the fundamentalists. They seem to be saying: "Look these English speaking rulers care more about Americans than you ... see how they kill, destroy mosques and violate the Islamic constitution". I bet you that most Pakistanis will nod their head even if not in full agreement. On the other hand the LIBERAL seems to be saying: "Hey look, there is no problem in Pakistan. We are just like all the other countries. Even our GDP in ppp is higher than China and India". I bet you that most Pakistanis will give the stare ... "yeah, right".

#142 Posted by dawa-i-dil

[hindu is makkar..in simplest words....]

That's not what the world thinks. The Christiams don't like Muslims, Buddhists (Thailand) don't like Muslims, Hindus don't like Muslims, Jews don't like Muslims, Secular people (China/Russia) don't like Muslims.

Why do you like to follow a pedophile, mass murderer, looter and serial rapist?

And by the way - there are no jinns, no houris, no ghilmans - nothing. They were stories for controlling idiot bedouins. Sorry.

Have a nice day.

zeemax

it depends on your company, nothing derogatory about being a kharay. see this as banter, in the same light as the Shehri and Paindu distinction very common in other parts of pakistan.

Dawa,

(Ram Ram Ram.......)

Bhoot ke mooh mein Raam naam.???

Regards

I see your point... it may be Kharay...

Adam...

Khaar or Khar are from the same root. City dwellers are considered stupid in folk lore ... Secondly ... you then haven't considered my response to Jayp in toto...

The pre-cursor to the taliban were people fakir of Ipi and Maulana Mufti Mahmood. Ghaffar Khan was allied with them.

I know.. that makes him the pre-cursor to the Pakistan Army.

#141 Posted by MantoLives,

The actual word is 'Kharay' for singular and 'Khariyan' for plural. But you're absolutely right that both are used in a derogatory manner.

Mantolives


In post #11 you said Tribal Areas were riled up and politicised in the name of Islam by none other than Frontier Gandhi…. and you ended the post by … how about blaming the right people for the right mess for once in you life?

So your post #141 where you state I am not trying to establish Ghaffar Khan as the pre-cursor to anything…. comes as a big improvement.

As I mentioned earlier political islam does not need preachers of non-violence to bring out these fanatics. It has done so on its own many times in the past, all over the world.

Now for the terms “Khaar” now listen meray bhai, Khaar in Peshawari dialect of Pushto means city, while in the Waziristani dialect it means Gadha, or donkey. (in the Waziristani dialect khaar (city) would be pronounced shaar)

So if we take the Peshawari dialect, you are calling the Hindko speaking people “cities” instead of “city dwellers”. Its like some gora calling the people of inner city Lahore “Shehers” instead of ”Shehris”.

hindu is makkar..in simplest words....

baghal mai churri..moo mai Ram Ram....

makkari aur ayyari ..tau hainduo par khatam hai....
uus ko dang maerati hain jo in ko doodh pilata hai...


plz..dont mnd ubove words..this is reality..based of 1000 years of our experience living with you....

the Mota harami ....playboy...Hari Singh..wanted to be neutral..but when majority of muslims said that we want Pakistan ...he decided status quo with jinnah..then ..decieving him..invited wet dhoti wali sarkar..Nehru..who imediatelt send its trrops in air force at sri nagar air force....

arai maharaj...tum logo nai tau apnai Bapu ...Mahatama Gandhi ko Maran Bharat rakhanai par nahee chora...or Patel (first interior minister) who is main figure of all bloodshed of 1947.....nai ussai marwa diya....you people think..we dont know your posisonous mentality....

Ram Ram Ram.......

HP

Thanks for sharing the quote, but your evidence about the political standing of hindko speakers is anecdotal. As your visits were in the late 80s a time when there was no medium of judging the overall political sentiment of hindko speakers. My proofs in this regard are the elections of the nineties when people like the Bilour brothers, Haji Adeel and other hindko speaking ANP leaders won seats in the city. Infact, if I remember correctly, Ghulam Bilour defeated Benazir Bhutto for NA 1 during the 90s.

What the excited manto fails to realize is that you are not trying to establish the KKs as the precursors for the Taliban movement.

Mantolives

You never learn do you? I told you the word is not “khaars” but “Khaariyan”, stop making an ass out of yourself.

You didn’t just declare the KK as a Pukhtun Nationalist Movement, your claim in your words was and Muslim League only won support amongst the "Khaaars" or the city dwellers... the lowly non-Pushtuns ... meanwhile it was the Pushtun of the pure blood in main who supported Ghaffar Khan. Now there is a difference between Pukhtun Nationalism and downright racism, your emphasis on the “lowly” non – pushtoons paints a completely different picture of the Khudai Khidmatgars and of Ghaffar Khan. They were not racists, make a note of that.

The beauty of Ghaffar Khan’s message was the introduction of non-violent resistance to the very violent Pukhtoons. One has to know the attitudes of Pathans in general to realize how big of an accomplishment that was, and how desperately a similar effort is needed right now.

Re: # 140

Dear AdamKhan,

What you don't realise is that HP has seconded all of my submissions...:

1. Ghaffar Khan's movement was Pushtun Nationalist bordering on pushtun racial superiority.

2. Ghaffar Khan's movement was allied with the Deobandi Islamists- the pre-cursors of the Taliban movement.

3. Muslim League's support in main came from city dwellers, i.e. the Khaars (I am going to stick to this word because this is a general Pustho word that describes city-dwellers- the "s" is English plrual).

4. Majority of the Non-Pushtuns- especially Hindko and Hazaras- voted for the Muslim League.

5. KK included feudal elements and sardars and the landed gentry voted for KK in the elections.


I am not trying to establish Ghaffar Khan as the pre-cursor to anything. I am merely mentioning the fact that Ghaffar Khan's latter sommersaults had a lot to do with de-stabilising NWFP... and his appeal to Pushtuns to rise up against Pakistan because it was not shariat based is roughly the same argument used by Waziristan's "mujahids" today... much like GK's ally Fakir of Ipi back in the day.

Dawa,

Pakistan would have got J&K if only ur leaders had been consistent and honest. Had they accepted the principle that the princely states go to successor states based on majority principle JK wud have been urs. The GoI which was in 1947 more concerned about Hyderabad wud have readily traded off JK for Hyd. But ur leaders including MAJ (pbuh) wanted not only JK on religion basis but also Hyderabad, Bhopal, Junagadh and incidentally the Rajputana states (thanks to a conspiracy hatched by Zubeida Queen of Jodhpur a fact which pseudo-secularist Shyam Benegal has glossed over in his movie) on the prince decides principle.

The result was that the Indians retaliated with similar double standards and since the Indians wielded the bigger danda at that time, India kept not only the Hindu majority states but also most of Muslim majority J&K.

Regards

#136 Posted by dawa-i-dil

his Dhoti became wet when he made a proise in UNO for refrendum in Kashmir...OK

But what happened to your Dhoti? If it wasn't wet, why didn't you take over Kashmir when India refused to hold a referendum?

#136 Posted by dawa-i-dil

[thats because Nehru makkar...ayyar...chankiya student...j\his Dhoti became wet when he made a proise in UNO for refrendum in Kashmir...OK ]

But that was AFTER Pakis invaded Kashmir.

Why did the Pakis not engage in "dialogue" BEFORE invading Kashmir?

post 133..ajeya..

thats because Nehru makkar...ayyar...chankiya student...j\his Dhoti became wet when he made a proise in UNO for refrendum in Kashmir...OK

#125 Posted by GT
“You are patronizing.
You are being arrogant.”

I am sorry if you feel that way but that was not my intention. Chowk is a pretty tough forum and one has to be ready to hear some adverse comments.

“"But aren't they (the fundoos) keeping the moot issue alive - the issue that a small segment of the population have been ruling Pakistan without allowing for the political participation of the masses?"

This whole thesis is wrong and not based on the facts on the ground. It is a made up story.
In every country there is elite that rules the country and controls the state. Pakistan is no exception. At some places it is done by democracy and in Pakistan it is just a cruder form of the same system.

The mullah or the Islamist don’t challenge the establishment they want elite to establish Islam or Nafiz Islam from the top. They just create another platform for the elite. They are facing no oppression in Pakistan there is no religious oppression for the majority. I would believe in religious oppression, if the argument comes from Ahmedis or Christian but these guys are majority in the country and they control the debate.
They don’t want economic reforms, they don’t want social reforms. They press for stringent Islamic laws. So the theory that you espouse is totally made up and no historic, social or economic background to support it.

Islamic militancy was used to squash indigenous local nationalist and secularist parties for fear of luring separatist tendencies within the country’s Pashtun, Baluchi, and Sindi minorities.

Ideologically, Pakistani Islamic militancy is a hybrid mix of the ultra-conservative Doebandi version of Islam in the Indian sub-continent, the Saudi desert version of Wahabism, and the Middle-Eastern revolutionary Islamic Brotherhood. Pakistani Maulana Abdul Ala Maududi and Egyptian Sayid Qutub have been the founding fathers of ultra-conservative Islam in Pakistan. Both theoreticians insisted on gender segregation, veiling women from head to toe, and denouncing music and western modernization. They preached madrasa as an alternative to what they believed to be a “Westoxication of Muslim Societies,” to use Samuel Huntington’s phrase.

Jamiat-e-Islami and Jamiat Ulema-i-Pakistan are the Taliban and al-Qaida-linked derivatives of the Maududi and Doebandi schools.

There is a group of social scientists who somehow have the idea that these people have some economic or social agenda. Farid Esack is one of them! Maybe you will find support there. You can find his articles on the Net.
http://www.hds.harvard.edu/faculty/visit/esack.html

#97 Posted by dawa-i-dil

[....but the Indians shown him boots on Kashmir issue..no dialogue at all...]


Ummm...so why did the Pakis not engage in "dialogue" before invading Kashmir in the first place?

Eh?

In memory of the great Ghaffar Khan, here is quote from one Khudai Khidmatgar. God bless them. When we look at the current pathan breed from the tribal areas, we invariably think of the mujahids like this one:


"The British used to torture us, throw us into ponds in wintertime, shave our beards, but even then Badshah Khan told his followers not to lose patience. He said 'there is an answer to violence, which is more violence. But nothing can conquer nonviolence. You cannot kill it. It keeps standing up. The British sent their horses and cars to run over us, but I took my shawl in my mouth to keep from screaming. We were human beings, but we should not cry or express in any way that we were injured or weak." Musharraf Din (Baldauf).

#129 Posted by adamkhan

An excellent post but I do have some disagreements. I spent at 3-4 summers (besides some other short trips) in Peshawar, Warsak, Badabaer, Mardan, Nowshera and Abbotabad during the 70s. I have traveled extensively in the tribal areas and other parts of NWFP. Basically, I love that area and I have some profound memories including a flame that lived behind Islamia College in the university campus. My last visit was in 1987, when I spent most of the time in Kohat, Hangu and Parachinar.

It is true that my knowledge of the area is not current so I may be wrong but I know that there were differences between the Hindko and Pathan and politically their differences were pronounced. Before the 70s, Hindko population in Peshawar always supported Qayoom Khan and during the 70s their political support shifted to PPP and I believe that the PPP always won one or more National assembly seats from Peshawar city.
I understand that demographics of the Peshawar city have changed since then and there are more Pukhtoon in the city now but at that time Peshawar was a Hindko majority city.

I also know for sure that a majority of Hindko speaking were deadly anti KK and Ghaffar Khan. I was told that hindko first called them Congressi. In many Hindko homes that I visited, I heard many jokes about the Khan family, stories about the Ghaffar Khan, Wali khan families and none of those stories were charitable.

“Ghaffar Khan took up the cause of “Pathan racial purity”, which was yet again, bull crap! Then you conveniently brush aside the presence of high ranking hinkiyaan in present day ANP.”

First, ANP is not exactly the old NAP or the KK and it is a broader alliance which conveniently ignores many of NAP and KK principles. However, there is no doubt that Ghaffar Khan was a Pakhtoon Nationalist and often nationalist tend to talk about racial purity. We have seen this in Sindh and we saw that in Bengal. The feudal tendencies do creep in the political platform. The KK movement was also influenced by feudalism. Now at this time I can not provide specific incidents as I don’t have access to the material, we do know that many of Wali Khan’s speeches during the 70s reeked of extreme nationalism. Some of it perhaps was in frustration but it was there for all to see.

“The Clergy and the Nationalists are arch enemies in every society”

That is not true! Clergy can be Nationalist as was the case with Mufti Mahmmod and the Nationalists can be strongly religious as was the case with Ghaffar Kahn himself. KK and NAP both were extremely careful about the religion in NWFP.
Before the partition almost all Muslim clergy was with the Congress which was a Nationalist party at All India level.

That is where Montolives objections start. He kind of takes a very broad brush and extends the Nationalist muslim clergy's alliance with congress at all India level(before partition) to NWFP.

There is a very fine line here. Ghaffar Khan was Pathan nationalist first before he was an Indian Nationalist. Being a Pathan Nationalist he wanted to have an independent Pukhtoonistan. His interest in Indian or Pakistan independence was more in terms of what he could get for his Nation i.e. for pakhtoons. His alliance with the Nationalist mullah like Mufti Mehmood was not based on Congress's alliance with the nationalist mullah in India, but was more geared towards the local political needs of the NWFP province.

Re: # 131

HP,

That is an excellent post. Adam Khan and Zakkk should read it carefuly.

It is true that my knowledge of the area is not current so I may be wrong but I know that there were differences between the Hindko and Pathan and politically their differences were pronounced. Before the 70s, Hindko population in Peshawar always supported Qayoom Khan and during the 70s their political support shifted to PPP and I believe that the PPP always won one or more National assembly seats from Peshawar city.
I understand that demographics of the Peshawar city have changed since then and there are more Pukhtoon in the city now but at that time Peshawar was a Hindko majority city.

I also know for sure that a majority of Hindko speaking were deadly anti KK and Ghaffar Khan. I was told that hindko first called them Congressi. In many Hindko homes that I visited, I heard many jokes about the Khan family, stories about the Ghaffar Khan, Wali khan families and none of those stories were charitable.

Precisely. To claim that ANP has the Bilour Family today, hence all Hindko speaking people supported KK is a rather ironic argument because ANP is not KK ....and so far neither Zakkk nor Adam Khan have shown me what special role the Bilours played in 1947 and before.

Apparently ... Adam Khan missed the entire point of the dicussion. He is more interested in point scoring. For all his claims about some Barbara Massacre undertaken on the orders of Abdul Qayyum Khan ... he still hasn't written a letter to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh for not seeking the resignation of the Andhra Pradesh Government for opening indiscriminate fire on protesters (just using his logic).


For Zakkk and Adam Khan

My submissions have been few and they remain unchallenged

1. KK was essentially a Pushtun Nationalist Movement... and the Non-Pushtun city elements and the Khaars etc voted in main for the Muslim League.

2. KK's main support base came from tribal leaders, the sardars and the landed gentry.

3. The Deobandi Islamist forces were firmly in KK/Congress camp as they were all over India.

4. In June and July 1947, Ghaffar Khan raised the slogan of Pushtun nationalism and Islamic Sharia claiming that the Westernised leadership of the Muslim League would never make Pakistan an Islamic state based on Shariat. This was a remarkable sommersault, I believe, from his acceptance of a United India- which would have been no doubt without Shariat as well.

5. Till June 1947, the Khan Brothers considered Durand Line the frontier between British India and NWFP. They were committed to this frontier. After June 1947, they suddenly became sore losers and started claiming they were Afghans. One should bear in mind that in the 1920s when AGK had gone to Afghanistan during the "Tehreek-e-Hijrat" ... he had refused to acknowledge NWFP as part of Afghanistan.

6. The de-stabilisation caused by them on the issue of Durand Line - in collusion with King Zahir Shah and Fakir of Ipi etc- has in no small way colored Pakistan's frontier and Afghan policy since then. The insurgency in Waziristan also has the stamp of this issue.

7. If as Adam Khan accepts - that Ghaffar Khan used the Mullahs for his political advantage (just like Bhutto's move against the Ahmedis - Adam Khan's example not mine)- then why doesn't he accept that Ghaffar Khan was a politician like all politicians.

8. The best thing would have been ...and still is ... more provincial autonomy for all provinces of Pakistan. If ANP today struggles for that, I will support it... but I cannot accept a whitewashing of history.

Quoted from adeel khans article on pakhtun integration:

At the same time, the Muslim League was launched in the non-Pukhtun district of Hazara by a Maulana Shakirullah, President of Jamiat-ul-Ulama, who became the first president of the Muslim League, assisted by the secretary of Jamiat-ul-Ulama, as the secretary of the Muslim League.33

The British Governor, Cunningham, instructed the big khans to meet each mullah on individual basis and tell him to serve the ‘cause of Islam’ for which he would be duly paid. The Mullahs were told that in case of good progress they would also be considered for government pension. A Cunningham policy note of 23 September 1942 reads: ‘Continuously preach the danger to Muslims of connivance with the revolutionary Hindu body. Most tribesmen seem to respond to this’,34 while in another paper he says about the period 1939–43: ‘Our propaganda since the beginning of the war had been most successful.

Mantolives

The issue at hand is your insistence upon making a connection between modern day taliban and the khudai khidmatgars. There is none! for one violence is a way of life while the others were complete believers in non violence.

The proof is the aftermath of the Barbara Massacre, which happened under the rule of Jinnah. How many jawans of the Pakistan army die in its backlash? Did the Afridi or Mohmand tribes rise against the army? I assure you another front could have been opened from Pakhtun settled areas as well as Northern tribal areas, in support of Faqir Ipis movement. But meray bhai there was no violence from Ghaffar Khan's side, or you could have been mentioning massacres, ambushes, bombs and counting the number of Pak army jawans that died in Bajur or Charsadda.

Now to the issue of "Khaars", well first of all the term is "Khariyaan" which means city dwellers, the term that you are looking for is "Hinkiyaan" or hindko speakers. There is no hatred or malice between Pashto and Hindko speaking people in the NWFP, intermarriages are common, and there is NO history of communal violence between the two communities.

Furthermore, seeing this division in black and white would be naïve. There are communities of Pushto Speaking Awans, Parachas, and Khwajas around Peshawar, Charsadda and Bannu. Similarly the Jadoons and Swatis of Hazara (Pakhtoon by lineage) speak Hindko as their primary language. Infact in the “Khalisa” belt of villages around Peshawar, the language spoken is a complete mixture of Hindko and Pashto, very unique and treat to listen to. So meray bhai there is nothing “lowly” about being a Hindko Speaker in the NWFP, get your facts straight.

You in one of your earlier posts mentioned that Ghaffar Khan took up the cause of “Pathan racial purity”, which was yet again, bull crap! Then you conveniently brush aside the presence of high ranking hinkiyaan in present day ANP. If Ghaffar Khan’s message was that of “racial purity” then his followers wouldn’t have hindko speakers as their main leaders, doesn’t take much to figure that out now does it?

Ghaffar Khan’s alliance with the conservatives is no different from Benazir’s alliance with Fazl ur Rehman, Imran Khan’s alliance with the MMA, Bhutto’s campaign against the Ahmedis. All of these were at a political level, not an ideological level. When it came to ideology, Ghaffar Khan opposed the Afghan War, while Wali Khan supported the drive against the Taliban.

The Clergy and the Nationalists are arch enemies in every society, as they want to lead the same people in two completely opposite directions; finding a common ground between the two would surely be a futile cause. Wake up and smell the chai meray bhai..

Manto I believe your information is inaccurate, the KK movements reforms under Dr Khan Sahib and in general were seen as a threat by big landlords and Mullahs who were paid informants of the British.

I suggest you read Provincial Politics and the Pakistan Movement: The Growth of the Muslim League in North-West and North-East India, 1937-47. By IAN TALBOT.

Some factual inaccuracies with Mantos comments, many hindko speakers are and were members of the KK & Congress/KK. The common factor to the PML in the province was it's reliance on big feudal landlords and Pirs like the Pir of Manki Sharif as well as other religious leaders.

Re: # 126

My friend Hindko speakers may or may not have been members of the Congress... my suggestion was that in main Bacha Khan's support came from the landed gentry.... you may check up on this.

Also you are absolutely wrong about Muslim League's reliance on big feudal landlords in NWFP... Muslim League's vote came from the cities... and were mostly "Khaars". The real reason why Qayyum Khan fell out with the Congress Party was because Qayyum was Kashmiri...and thus found himself alien to the whole Pushtun-bent of politics.


As for Pir of Manki Shareef.. doesn't he represent the Barelvi low church... as opposed to the Deobandi Islamists like Mufti Mahmood etc?

Weren't Mufti Mahmood and others hand in glove with Ghaffar Khan and the Congress... just like Deobandis all over
India were with the Congress in main?

Thus your comment "the common factor to the PML in the province...." is without basis.

And your earlier comment "many hindko speakers are..." is something I did not dispute and is irrelevant to the issue at hand.

HP:

When you state:

"GT you are beginning to disappoint me."

You are patronizing.

When you state:

"What state oppression are we talking about here?"

You are being arrogant.

This type of patronizing arrogance does win debates in many fora - Harvard debating clubs to those in St. Stephens (Bill Buckley's debating style comes to mind). But that is about it. It does not go beyond.

Coalescing around the values of Islam in Pakistan does not make the common Pakistani a 'mullah' or a 'fundoo'. In our sub-continent people have always taken recourse to religion whenever faced with problems - from famines to oppression. That religion provides strength to stand up and face challenges is something that should be clear to anyone bothering to look. The problems in Punjab and Assam, in India, started with provincial demands. Soon religion took over (in Assam religion it is garbled with tribalism and Marxism-Leninism).

There is no way out for Pakistan other than democracy where people's concerns are taken seriously by the leadership. Hope for success has to be sustained. I had asked:

"But aren't they (the fundoos) keeping the moot issue alive - the issue that a small segment of the population have been ruling Pakistan without allowing for the political participation of the masses?"

KANJAR MALAOON TALIBOON & CO

Bunch of faggots who have nothing to offer but 72 chuts in heaven and their unending supply of ghulam boyzzzz.

Their behavior on chowk and elsewhere reminds me of sacrificial lambs in their last moments on Eid ul Zuha. As the qasai held them down they struggled but not knowing what is to come next they submitted, as the knife was applied to their throat, that was the time when they struggled the most, but then it was too late as the knife severed their arteries blood gushed out and the poor animal slowly lost all senses. Kanjar Malaoon Taliboon and Co are in the same situation, feeling the cold steel on their fat corrupted necks they are struggling the hardest knowing very well that this is their end. Too late, this si the last time these kanjar malaoons fck up anymore.

Salim:
and I wholeheartedly concur..credit must be given where credit is due.
Ata-Turk deserves to be called Ata-turk...

but we are in the muzzle by this kaala Kutta-Paak.

Just imagine the Kutaa-Paak instead of emulating Jinnah.. a no less towering figure of the 20th century than Ata-Turk but simply because of the Kalaa-kuttaa hating even the mention of Islam has a deep-rooted hatred for Jinnah.

May the Kaala-kttaa die..what else, a dog's death..Aaaameen.

I see..its means many kanjaroons are already here...

and yes...this dictator ..is far less than Attaturk..

For the depraved Malaoon Taliboon....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5gCwlaQBfQ
Taliban Babes and the Sex Starved Talibaan Malaoon

#97 dawa-e-dil {"he lived in Turkey..so he fisrt declared that his most beloved personality is Kamal Attaturk...so..he wanted to transform pakistan into Turkey..and considered himself as Attaturk of Pakistan....
....he could not change the pakistan into secular Turkey..and also infleunced the Army to be like Turkish Natinal Army..."}

O Hearty Med Sahib,
Please don't insult the great Ghazi Ataturk Mustafa Kemal Pasha by even mentioning him in the same sentence as this gora angrez ka kaala kutta. Mushy is no Ataturk and the Paki Army is not even close to the Turkish Army in loyalty or courage. Turks don't perform mass surrender and Ataturk never sided with a foreigner against fellow Muslims. He died with something like $26 in his personal bank account. By all definitions of Islam, with the exception of his love of the nectar of life, Ataturk was a hero - ghazi, loyal, incorruptible, determined, honest, and most of all principled.

#117 Posted by dawa-i-dil,

It is full of murtads, 'ooons' and stinking hindoos ... with mirzaees thrown in for good measure.

But I'm sure echoboom's response to your question will be more descriptive and colourful :-)

dawa-i-dil:117

..."its seems from your reply that..this forum has many secular modernist...type people..is this true..."

Please use the word KANJAROON..and if you want to be PC then Ooons would suffice. This word should become a googled word & every site must learn to use it. This is the way to monitor our success.

We are not here to explain or educate anyone. That is for the ones suffering from Intellectualitis..their "Education" is to become JOBBERS, apologists to the goraa maashters..

" Look goray-abbaa, no hands ...& no brains either!"..
" Don't we now almost look walk & talk like you goray-abbaa?"
" If we look like we're fcuked walk,like we're fcuked, talk like we're fcked, then are you still saying goray-abba that we're not yet fcuked?"

"KHUDAA KAY LIYAY: FOR GOD's SAKE COME BACK! in Faiz's words AmmaaN akailee jaag raheeN haiN..(Mother is lonely, Awake all night)

# 110 orginally posted by Zeemax

hehehe..aik hee baat hai...

#112 posted by echoboom...

thanks sir jee....

its seems from your reply that..this forum has many secular modernist...type people..is this true ??

#115 Posted by MantoLives,

Hmm ... I must have missed if Adam Khan quoted the Bilour family. Did he? Which post# is it? It is true they were later entrants after they became prominent businessmen, and they have ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with Khaars or their welfare.

The Muslim Leeguis of NWFP are the Safullahs.

#112 Posted by echoboom,

Haha. "Faqat ek hi Mujahid nau sau 'ooons key liye kafi hai ..."

#105 Posted by MantoLives

Quoting the Bilour family as an example (maybe you can enlighten me about their role in the Congress in 1947) does not matter when you consider that those around Ghaffar Khan were mainly Pushtun Sardars... and Muslim League only won support amongst the "Khaaars" or the city dwellers...

Mano, it is correct that the Bilours are non-Pushtoon Khaars. I didn't know they were ever with Muslim League. As far as I know they were always with Wali Khan's NAP and later ANP. Is that correct? Thanks for the info.

Re: # 113

Dear Zeemax,

I never said the Bilours were in the Muslim League either. Nor did I dispute the fact that they are Khaars and non-Pushtuns. I also think their history in politics starts from NAP ... and not partition.

DAWA-i-DIL!

Nice to see addition of a MUSLIM member here to counter the Kanjaroons ( Kanjaroon is a generic word for: SEcularoon, liberaloon, munafiquoon, murtadoon, mushrikoon, and any other Ooons & Poons)..sometimes written in short as only Oooons ( 3/4 O's).

WELCOME & may our Ummah increase on CHOWK.

#110 Posted by dawa-i-dil,

..LP*

LP* or GPL? (daish par laat) ... :-)

Now see Zeemax..how shameful this picture is...
thsi daish ka baccha dictaor want to turn pakistan matches some sort of europe football like..or South African Stadiums whrere girls dance like that...

but see ..inshallah..this jackal death is near ..as SC is very powerful..and give ..LP* to him over uniform..and reelection from same assemblies...

...(dated 27th July)

Hey dawa-i-dil,

Not to rub salt in your wounds ... but have you seen this (dated 2rth July)?



LoL ... Cheerleaders of Quetta 'Zorawar' Football Team !!!

#105 Posted by MantoLives

Selective... like I said.

Yaar Yasser, when you continue to harp about Jinnah's Congress days, the "best ambassador of Hindu-Muslim unity" thing and all that, ignoring his blatantly communal side when he led the Muslim League, aren't you being selective too?

Re: # 106

Harish pai,

On the contrary, I have written extensively about Jinnah post 1940...

It is just that we differ in our interpretation of our understanding of Mr. Jinnah's reasons for championing Pakistan. You think it was "blatant communalism" and I don't.

Mian Adam Khan,

"am talking about the post-reform ashoka"

Selective... like I said.

Ofcourse I know how far Asoka's land stretched (hence the latter part of my comment which you conveniently ignored-again selective). I also know that the chances of Ghaffar Khan's ancestry being Ghaznavi's or Ghauri's soldiers are much higher than it being that of Asoka.

As for Wahabism... surely you mean Deobandiism... as in those like Mufti Mahmood who were in alliance with Ghaffar Khan... as opposed to Barelvi low church that formed the majority of Muslim League's TNTist supporters right? The reason why NWFP sided with the Congress and against Punjab was because of this Deobandi-ism.

Quoting the Bilour family as an example (maybe you can enlighten me about their role in the Congress in 1947) does not matter when you consider that those around Ghaffar Khan were mainly Pushtun Sardars... and Muslim League only won support amongst the "Khaaars" or the city dwellers... the lowly non-Pushtuns ... meanwhile it was the Pushtun of the pure blood in main who supported Ghaffar Khan.

Ghaffar Khan's reverence for Bapu ji can be judged from his famous statement "we only sided with the Hindus against our common enemy" at independence. Presumably this statement was made to justify his sommersault at such late stage in favor of a Pathan/Pushtun state based on Pathan racial identity.

When in 1947, Ghaffar Khan was calling upon Pathans to rise up against Pakistan in the name of Islamic sharia and Pushtun traditions... I doubt that he had "non-violence" in his mind. Did he preach his message of non-violence to Fakir of Ipi for example? I suggest Adam bhai that you realise that Ghaffar Khan was foremost a politician... though he did not succeed in his objectives, but his objective was - as is of all politicians- power... power which he and his brother craved.


If you read the history of India you will find many such local regional leaders- inter alia Allah Bux Soomro, Sir Sikandar Hayat, Sir Fazli Hussain, Iyer, Sir Chotu Ram, Khizer Hayat Tiwana etc who wanted to preserve their fiefdoms... and tried to do so by playing the all India leaders like Jinnah and Gandhi and Nehru against each other... their politics was the politics of preservation of power and prestige and not national politics... be it Indian nationalist or Muslim nationalist etc etc.

dawa-i-dil,

"Woh jo detey thai dawa-i-dil;
Woh dukaan apni barrHa gaye ..." :-)

Your point of Musharraf's fiddling with the ideological axis with disastrous results is quite accurate.

That ideological axis is clear in the constitution, and cannot be changed, and neither should anyone try.

Majumdar

Am talking about the post-reform Ashoka.

Mantolives:

I dont have to defend dacoits like Abdali or Ranjit Singh to have a sense of belonging, neither do I have to change sects in order to be part of the "in crowd".

And here is another fact you cool liberal you, Ashoka's land included modern day Afghanistan as well as Pakistan. Now go read up on Wahabism, the way things are changing you might have to switch to that soon.

Twisting and turning again Mantolives, here are some facts for you, the Bilour Family is hindko speaking, so are some of the other prominent stalwarts in the present ANP. Ghaffar Khan never was a racist, or he wouldn’t have called a Gujrati Hindu “Bapu”. Infact old Muslim Leaguers i.e. the followers of Jinnah and the believers in the TNT in Peshawar, used to taunt the red shirts about this fact. That how a lowly hindu can be called bapu.

Ghaffar Khan urged his followers to redefine the concept of Qasaas in Islam and Badal in Pukhtoonwali to channel their energies in a non violent manner. The revival of this message is desperately needed right now.

If the Talibans were Pukhtoon nationalists then Wali Khan wouldn’t have supported the US invasion of Afghanistan after 9/11. The main reason why this movement is concentrated in the Pukhtoon areas is because of the large number of madrassas that propped up all over the NWFP in the 80s. A move that was vehemently opposed by both Ghaffar Khan and Wali Khan. If the same was done in Punjab I assure you the results would have been the same. There is nothing wrong with the Pukhtoon DNA, we are as much human as the rest of you.

The Barbara massacre was an atrocity and Jinnah turned a blind eye towards it, I hope Manmohan Singh doesn’t follow Jinnah’s example in dealing with the situation in Hyderabad.

Majumdar 100,

History and facts are the undoing of the sissy liberal (as opposed to cool liberal like myself) in Pakistan.


But that begs a question - Asoka's violence notwithstanding... why does Adam Khan (if he is so concerned about Asoka) support people who wanted the land of Asoka to become part of Ghaznavi's country i.e. Afghanistan?

Or perhaps he is shooting for Kabul (owing to a stupa here or there) becoming part of good ol' Punjab... in which case, hurray to him.

Adamkhan sahib,

(The main reason behind this senseless killing is this bedouine plague that has cursed this land and transformed the land of Ashoka into the killing fields of Abdali and Ghaznavi. )

Sorry to disappoint you but apparently Ashoka murdered 99 brothers and also brought about a bloodbath in Kalinga b4 reforming his ways.

Regards

the problem is that...we have created fight with those people who freed half of Kashmir...this Azad kashmir was all captured by Mahsood tribe ...and other tribl people....

they are one of the bravest people living on the face of earth....

when British were ruling the whole indo pak..and half of the world...even then British made a pact with them..and not ruled upon them...

Russian like super power could not defeat them...

and US and NATO are unble to defeat them....

but due to our Baighairat generals...we have bombarbed our own people there..and in revenge..they have strted suicide bombing..yes..they also did some mstakes...but firing missiles on madrassas is unaccetable ..

and thats why we have burn the fire of hell..in all this tribal area..which has reached inside Islamabad also....

in the early days...he started to change the religious axis of pakistan....

his first picture was..in front of PM house with small dog in his hand....to show people he is very moderate....

he lived in Turkey..so he fisrt declared that his most beloved personality is Kamal Attaturk...so..he wanted to transform pakistan into Turkey..and considered himself as Attaturk of Pakistan....

but thanks god...the religious masses of pakistan were so strong that...despite of his 8 years ..efforts..he could not change the pakistan into secular Turkey..and also infleunced the Army to be like Turkish Natinal Army..but he also failed in this regard...


though ..in these efforts..he made enormous losses to whole Pakistan idelogical axis..with a lot of anarchy and suicide bombings...and reactionary efforts of Lal Masjid..etc....

On Basant ..in 6 years..full time ...Baighairti...Shabab-o-Kabab mehfils..mujras..and other things...he himself was in Lahore on basant nights for 6 years..when atlast Supreme court put a complete ban on Basant....

He also tried to secularize the Army by regular basis musicaol concerts in every garrison and Abrar ..and other were invited on night dinners...there..still today....while Zia ul haq..never allowed that...


In his foolish thinking that iNdia will compromise on Kashmir..he turned whole pakistan media into indian culture..Meera going there..there singers and actors..and film stars coming here....but the Indians shown him boots on Kashmir issue..no dialogue at all...


he ordered the music classes in Punjab university..although students protested against that..but his nasha of enlightened moderation was overwhelming him...


PTV ..and other private channels are so much that sometimes they beat even indian channels in nudity and baighairti ..but no check from government at all....

these all are the fruits of this Dictator era...

These bloody ...broke the country...made pakistan..and heroin state..gave waters of 3 rivers to pakistan....and atlast..made the whole country ..in the burning fire of suicide attacks.....

these lanti...harami..generals ..consider themselves above every law..and rule and regulations.....

they have created a state within a state in pakistan....

there budget is never presented in National Assembly or Senate.....the most highest bodies of pakistan....

Nobody knows where the 60% of GDP go......

Minerva...come and look at he castle or palace of Lahore Corp Commander in Defence area...at night...1000's of bulbs glow..on his palace..who is he ...a soldier ..whose job is to defend country..but these baighairat kuttai....looted the money for thier own luxuries....

go and see ..how these Baighairat generals go in thier precious cars to have golf match in evening.....like they have conquered Kashmir.....

go and see..how these bloody general's wives...go to Cavalary..and Liberty market.. ...for shopping in offical cars....like they are queens of pakistan...bah.... lanti

in same Lahore..people have not pure water to drink..the patients are dying as they have no medicine..and these harami generals are enjoying the Pakistan money for thier badmashi...drunkards kuttai ........

for 60 years...they have made pakistan...the most corrupt...and beggar country....of the world...

these baighairat generals... ...DHA princes..and land mafia generals..are now...on the way..to eat whole Gwadar lands..in thier greed.....

These lanti generals ..consider themselves as very superior ...and call us " bloody civilians" ..lanti na ho tau......

what they have given to pakistan in 60 years..except..the kicking off the elected govermnets of 150 millions...or gallows to elected PM ..etc....

in my eyes..the only solution is...to have gallows...be constructed in Islamabad Abpara Chowk..bring all these baighairat generals ..to that..place..and sentence them to death..in front of all nation.....thats the only solution left...if we want to get rid of this cancer...

An elected leader of 15 crore people declined 5 phone calls of US President...as he knew...if he will not disobey him...2/3 majority in National Assembly against him..will kick him out from PM seat....

While this baighairat general...about which Clinton ..was not willing to shake hands with him...on eve of 11 september 2001..laid down his all weapons on his bed when he listened tothe 3rd level secretary of US ...lanat on him....

is this the respect of a nuclear and missile state....can an elected leader do that.....without taking into consideration his cabinet..NA ..Senate...and pals like Saudia..Emirates..and China etc....


just as this baihghairat Dictaor got a golden chance to "Legetamize" his millitary rule..in eyes of US and West....and for his seat...he pushed the whole pakistan..in fire and hell...of that war..which was not actually of pakistan....and accepted every thing they demanded..shame on him.....

can an elected goverment do that..it is answerable to 10's of institution..this Dictaor was not answerable to anyone....

and plz..dont give me psuedo threats of US attackilng pakistan and taking her to cave era or stone age like crap.....only dictators having no public support fear from these childish threats...not any elected government of 150 millions......

Do you not know this simple fact that newton's 3rd Law..is more applicable to our social life rather than Physics...

do you not know..what this Baighairat general did in 8 years to change the ideological islamic axis of pakistan....

nobody wants cave vesrion of jahil taliban type islam in Pakistan...but is it means that you start Sharab-o-Kabab mehfils..in every nook and corner of the country... semi nude Marathon races...the cable dish atmosphere... ..indian kanjar culture...the indo pak blend of film and drama industry...music cocerts in army areas in whole Pakistan...where these Baighairat generals...having drinks in hands....dance with the singers.....


* do you not know what is happening in pakistan in whole this dictator era....the Basant ....and mujras..and chaklas ...stage dances.....and brothels....where were they leading to pakistan....

Thjis baighairat general....asked for Imam-e-Kaaba ...last few months..when the whole country stood with CJ of Pakistan..why not he remebered to have one more Marathon Race...with logo Dor mairai Lahore.....why he invited Imam-e-Kaaba..and start giving proofs of his entering the Khana Kaaba and on his roof....

can you change the religious axis of pakistan on the name of so called Enlightened Moderation.....can people will accept all these things....


will they not react....before this Dictator..where were all talibans...when they actualy ruling in Afghanistan..therewas no talbinization in whole pakistan..and when they are not actually n the scene..suddenly..this Talbinization ..reached inside Islamabad...why ???????

When you try to change the mindset of traditions..then be ready to face the music also....

You said that Lal Masjid was a drama and threat of islamic millitants....

hahahah....

*do you know...the ISI HQ is about 200 or 400 yards from the Lal Mosque....

* the petrol bombs...rocket launchers...gas masks..accumulated to this mosque in invisble mode...i think.....

* the ISI personals were drinkinng daru ..and enjoying soota of powder wali cigaratte when all arms were going in.....

* is it possible that..inside heart of a capital..and adjacent to ISI HQ....the dangerous arms keep on gathering....

* The baighairat general and his bloody baihgat generals ka tola ...instteadof using IB..MI..and ISI for national security..were using them to gather funny and ridiculous....proofs of Chef Justice inside house photographs..bugging the 19 SC judges...phone tapping...and threatening them with pressures.....Lanat on them...is in UK or USA..can you think..the government can do such dirty things....


* bugging of all High Courts ..and judges housese so that they cnnot unfold..the Chor Bazari..of the government..and black mail them...lanat on all the Baighatrs general's Tola again....


*when secret agents are on phone tapping of judges...can they know..wht is happening inside the heart of capital...in a place which is already famous for tensive speeches and vogorousss elements....

*who supported Ghazi brothers for 20 years...were all armed forces were not with them...now they have become the terrorists....


* i am against their implementation ways..but what they are saying...is 100% right..do you not know..what is going on in the name of enlightened Moderation..are you so unaware of that...Aunti Shameem...regulars customers were many Federal Secreatries..and 2 Ministers....and police invited the girls to stop that..as they said ..we are helpless due to government pressure..i am aginst the way the girls raided..but its not the duty of law enforcement agencies to stop these things..tell me...

Yes... Quaid-e-Azam Mahomed Ali Jinnah was a proud member of the Congress when it was still worth it being a Congressman. He was also the person who campaigned for Ghaffar Khan's release in 1931 and his inclusion in round table conference ... some good it did anyone though.

If you don't see a direct link between the activities of Ghaffar Khan in collusion with Fakir of Ipi and the recently departed King Zahir Shah... on the issue of Durand Line... and the subsequent destabilisation of the frontier in the 70s, 80s and the 90s... then what can one say.


However... you must appreciate that when the Khan Brothers raise the banner of revolt by saying that "Pakistan under Jinnah would not be a sharia-based state" in NWFP (presumably because of Jinnah's western dress and shaven face) in July 1947 ... do you really expect that to stop there.

The Taliban movement in Waziristan is actually the Pushtun nationalist movement given a religious color. The pre-cursor to it was Fakir of Ipi... who was hand-in-glove with your "Frontier Gandhi".

As for Barbara "sharif massacre"... I am guessing you are petitioning at this very moment to have Manmohan Singh's Indian government in Delhi held accountable for the "Hyderabad Sharif Massacre" that occured a few days ago, where the police opened indiscriminate fire on protesters and killing several and injuring scores... Oh wait... you won't. Like Bacha Khan, you too have selective memory... (ironic that Bacha Khan in his first address to PCA was abusing Pakistan government for retaining British governors and praising Indian leadership... forgettin that Indians had retained Lord Mountbatten as GG). Ironies... now maybe your friend Sadna will jump in with her favorite story about some unfortuante incident about Abdul Qayyum Khan and NWFP league using the issue of some sikh girl to prove some esoteric point..

The point however remains that the seeds of Pushtun conflict were laid the day formerly "Indian nationalist" and "secular" politicians like Ghaffar Khan suddenly espoused the cause of Pathan racial purity and "Islamic sharia" to try and break Pakistan apart. Denying this is denying history.

Mantolives:

What “tit for tat”? You mean Qayum Khan orchestrated this massacre to avenge one carried out by the Khudai Khidmatgars? Even the thought is ridiculous. It was a carnage carried out under the Governorship of Jinnah, did Qayum Khan get any reprimand after he committed this atrocity? No he didn’t. As for his past with the congress, well your Quaid I Azam was also a proud member of Congress once, should that be taken against him as well?

Why I did mention the Barbara Massacre was because of the fact that no reprisal or revenge took place after it. No bombings, no ambushes, no nothing. Doesn’t sound like a precursor to the present Taliban movement now does it? The people who kill barbers for shaving beards wouldn’t have so easily forgiven a massacre of 100s.

So don’t insult the intelligence of the readers here, there is no connection between Ghaffar Khan’s non violence movement and the present killing frenzy that has become the hallmark of the NWFP.

This terrorism, this senseless killing has been part and parcel of political Islam ever since its inception. Look up the Azraqis, the assassination of Ali, your fellow Islmailis i.e. the Hashishins, and scores of modern day Harbs, Jaishes in the middle east. I ASSURE YOU none of them is a result of Moplah uprising, and I am SURE you know that yourself as well. So to think that the mullahs in the Sub-continent would have been a meek little lambs had Gandhi jee not shaken their hands is simply naïve.

The main reason behind this senseless killing is this bedouine plague that has cursed this land and transformed the land of Ashoka into the killing fields of Abdali and Ghaznavi.

YLH

Here are some numbers for you about pak economy. Do not believe the economic growth data by mushy, these are actual numbers, no guess work , and one can imagine its impact on jobs.

pakistan is imploding

from dawn of today

Product-wise details showed export of rice dipped by 3.11 per cent during the year 2006-07 to $1.121 billion as against $1.157 billion over the last year. Of these export of basmati was up 16.96 per cent during the year under review. However, export of other rice declined by 17.31 per cent during the same period. This is the only traditional commodity, which crossed the billion dollar mark otherwise export of other products remained in millions.

The export of sport goods declined by 16.14 per cent during the year 2006-07 as against the same period of last year. Of these export of footballs declined by 27.30 per cent. However, export of gloves rose by 214.93 per cent during the same period.

The carpets, rugs and mats exports recorded a negative growth of 9.38 per cent; and leather goods (garments and gloves) by 24.42 per cent during the fiscal year under review over last year. Of the leather goods export of leather garments declined by 22.72pc, leather gloves 17.07pc and other leather manufacturers 52.79pc.

The export of footwear declined by 21.44 per cent during the months of June-July 2007 over the same months of the last year. Of these export of leather footwear dipped 16.64 per cent canvas footwear 46.76 and other footwear 38.43 per cent. Molasses export declined by 35.57 per cent.

YLH,

Instead of keep repeating the same posts about some persons views on Gandhi, try and make some cogent story about how the situation in pakistan can be traced to Gandhi.

Now many even on chowk accept that partition of pakistan is inevitable and only sindh is the viable part that will be left, as one can see a coherent analysis how the TNT and the consequent jinnah - islam is responsible for the current state of pakistan.

Being an educated person, dont be like a jihadi, keep repeating the same posts, like learning the koran by rote only to follow instructions from a mullah to kill.

Think...YLH...think, think for your self, dont even follow a person even when he claims to be a prophet.

Re: # 89

Yes by quoting facts of history, I am merely quoting an "opinion". Your abuse on the other hand is entirely factual and not abuse at all.

Tell me why did the Moplahs kill all those Hindus in the Khilafat Movement... when the "TNT-ists" were no where around but infact had opposed the Khilafat movement.

Pakistan will do just fine. You can keep dreaming your pipedreams in the meantime.

one way street,

Pakistan is on a one way street to talibanisation. The pak army will not attack waziristan and it is a matter of time, the uS will strike, and more of the pak army will die in their barracks, killed by the suicide bombers.

There is no defference between the pak army and the taliban, and a few occasional killings by the army are only a show for teh americans.

The pak leaders keep asking the US for evidence of Osama in pakistan, while they are making no efforts to find him.

The same is true for Dawood Ibrahim, they want india to tell them where dawood is. This tamasha cannot go on for ever, the americans are getting fed up with this type tricks. There should be some notion of sovereignity, some determination to find the criminals and one cannot expect another country to give proof.

Time to iraquise pakistan, finish off the army and rest will follow.

HP 85

Your simple questions will never be answered by any pakistani, because it will be an admission of the effects of 60 years of k for kafir education in pakistan. All of the pakistanis, whether educated in the madrassa or not subscribe to the TNT view that muslims cannot live with people of another religion. The madrassas use the koran format and translates the TNT ideology into jihad.

The educated like the YLH and tahmed with the non-madrassa education provide a westernised pretense and support for the works of teh jihadis. They are the ones to state repeatedly that hoodood is a Zia creation while ignoring that several other rulers including Mushy refused to change any aspect of it, primarily because the pakistanis all like that, because it is in line with koran.

The same with the taliban. They are supported by the collections all through pakistan, supported by the YLHs and thameds alike. The poor jihadis cannot be funding their own jihad.

The pak army at the foot soldier level are all from the madrassas. The only place a madrassa graduste can go is either to become a mullah or join army. It is this rank and file support of the army that prevents mushy from taking any action against the taliban. Some of the madrassa graduate join taliban, some join pak army, there is no distinction between the two, in terms of background.

Irrespective of what the YLH will say, jihad is central to islam and no one is going to prevent the teaching of it. The only way it can be controlled is only by dominating the muslim state by another power. Jihadis are not there in saudi, turkey etc because the people are not freely allowed to follow koran, Pak elections and democracy will be bad for the world, as the jihadis will come to power.

Partitioning of pakistan is the only option.

#84 Posted by HP,

Hmmm . so now you hide behind masadi.

Well ...you could now have at-least found escape in the line that it indeed was a manufactured drama by agencies in league with the brothers which went seriously wrong.

That would have been a better refuge.

#18 Posted by Urstruly
“Look, we belonging to the sensible segment of the society, where we do not have immediately something at stake here, shoul not find every door of hope closed for good. Pakistani nation, given the chance has always made the right decisions for itself. There is a way to save our society from Iraqization, which is to support the movements such as independence of judiciary and true democracy. Look, no army in the world can fight people. The defeated and humilitaed but proud people of Iraq and Afghnaistan has proven that to the worlds most fearsome war machine of US and NATO combined. NaPak fouj kis khait ki mooli hay.”


Let’s stop this rhetoric now. I am not about to bring the whole saga of Iraq and Afghanistan and what the US did there in to the debate. I have posted enough on those subjects and I don’t need to repeat what my stand is.

Right now we are concerned with Pakistan and what is happening there NOW. The Islamists are bent upon destroying that country. Yeah I can say Sindh would still be there when Pakistan dies and I can say that the Islamist will never be able to capture Sindh but we are talking about a country where you and I may not have much on stake now but for various reasons we do need to understand what is going on there.

Let me ask you this: we all know that the Taliban were a creation of the Pak army and they were nurtured and helped by them. Was the Pak army interested in Islam at that time or they were just using the Taliban to increase their sphere of influence?

Now tell me if you think the Pak army is sold out the liberals and the US then who is supporting the Taliban now.

Both of us have enough political understanding and knowledge to know that an enterprise of the Taliban level does not run on Zakat alone.

Now if we agree that Taliban are financially supported by some, then we do need to figure out who those angels are and what interests they have in financing and promoting the most non political segment of the Pakistani politics, the FATA tribes.

If we agree that the Pakistan army or the ISI in 1994 were not interested in Islam then can we now safely assume that perhaps the forces that are now supporting the Taliban are not interested in Islam or Jihad but have some other motives to provide the financial and military support to the Taliban.

Simple questions and I hope you have simple answers too.

#18 Posted by Urstruly
“the hotbed of sedition is not in NWFP , but in the capital of Pakistan,”

This is so far removed from the reality that I should not even respond to this but I will respond to it just to show you how clumsy you are in your debate.

Since when couple of suicide bombing incidents make a city of at least a million people, the hotbed of sedition? How do some gangsters from the Lal Mosque-who were too good to take some unarmed women out of their homes- and caved in the minute the army arrived, create a hotbed of sedition?

I am at a loss as to why you are complaining about the death of some Girls and women when they had ample opportunity to leave the compound. Some of them including the chief Mullah did leave in Burqa. Has any thing happened to them? They are still alive and making one false statement after another.

Sorry Urstruly, you should blame the mullah brothers of the mosque who did not allow the girls to leave. I think you should ask the parents of those who died there as to why their kids were still there after a six month of standoff. You should ask their parents why they allowed their little daughters to pick up Danda when they certainly were underage to do that.

I have written it before and I will write this again: the mullahs in Lal mosque were looking for some dead bodies to carry on their shoulders and they got them. Now what is stopping them? Go ahead and put those bodies on display all over the country. They can’t do that because despite the bodies’ Pakistani people rejected what the mullahs used those little girls and women for.

God Bless Mullah, he can ask people to die in the hope that they will go to paradise and mullah would have some more political power to boast.


#33 Posted by GT

“Could it be the case that the common woman in Pakistan is reacting to state oppression by coalescing around Islamic ideals”

GT you are beginning to disappoint me. What state oppression are we talking about here? The Islamists in Pakistan have never been oppressed by Pakistani state and that is the fact of life.
That is the crux of the matter Bengalis were oppressed, Sindhi and Baloch still are but do you know how they respond? They never use their mother and sisters and little daughters to end the oppression. The women that you saw at Lal Masjid were being used and abused by both the mullah and the military for their own political games.

#38 Posted by zeemax

My post was for Asadi and both of us have enough information to understand the context of what I wrote. Sorry if that is little beyond you. Instead of hyperbole and disinformation, if you start paying attention to details you will too figure out what I wrote. It will take me a long time to explain every thing to you and presently I have no interest in that.

Dear writer,

Childish to say the least, unaccurate and boorish article.

Putting UAE & Finland together, Sheikhdom with democratic welfare state, poor, very poor.

Grow up.

Here a Nation acts with pride & dignity & doesn not give in to the goraa-goondaas: Salaam India, Salaam.

and then there are our Cantonment kuttaa who is earning blood-money to confine, capture, kill those who are mujahids and fighting hard to get the goraa-baboons out of Muslim Lands...

This Cantonment & colonied "ELITE" will InshaAllah see a day soon when they will be dragged on the streets of all muslim lands & given exemplary treatment so that KanjarRs will ever dare to raise their ugly heads & try to act western ever again.
_____________________________________________________________

Scrum ... Reunited with famly in India, Dr Haneef is vowing to fight for his right to work in Australia / AP / The Associated Press

Mohamed Haneef to fight to have visa restored

July 31, 2007 07:24am


THE Indian doctor detained for more than three weeks in Australia on false terrorism-related charges vowed overnight to "fight" to have his visa restored so he could return to work in the country.

Mohamed Haneef, 27, also demanded the Australian authorities apologise to India over the affair, and did not rule out taking legal action.
"I would like to return to Australia, I would like my visa back, I will fight for that," the former Gold Coast Hospital registrar said in the southern Indian city of Bangalore, his hometown.
"I enjoyed my time working at the Gold Coast Hospital and am saddened that until my visa has been returned that I am unable to return and work as a doctor there," said the medic, who was calm but visibly angered over his ordeal.
Dr Haneef was held in custody for almost four weeks and charged with providing "reckless" support to a terrorist group in connection with last month's failed car bombings in London and Glasgow.

But the case against him collapsed on Friday due to a lack of evidence.
A day later he was allowed to fly home to Bangalore, where he was reunited with his wife and saw his one-month-old baby for the first time.
Dr Haneef's Australian lawyer, Peter Russo, earlier foreshadowed legal action for damages to the doctor's reputation, but when asked if he intended to sue the Australian Government over his ordeal, Dr Haneef replied: "I have not sought any legal advice on this matter at this time; that will be later on."
"I don't expect an apology from the Australian Government or the authorities, but I would appreciate if they apologise to my peace-loving country and citizens," he said.
Asked if he felt he had been victimised as an Asian Muslim, Dr Haneef replied: "There might be an element of that.
"Islam narrates peace and love and nothing else. I am a true Islam follower."
Not sorry
Prime Minister John Howard had earlier dismissed calls for an inquiry into the bungled case and said the Muslim medic should not expect an apology.
Mr Howard said that when it came to preventing attacks, it was "better to be safe than sorry".

And he stood by Immigration minister Kevin Andrews's decision to cancel Dr Haneef's visa on character grounds, saying he was acting on "secret information".
Mr Andrews said he was keen to release the information but was consulting the commonwealth solicitor-general on whether he could do so.
Visa push
Meanwhile, Mr Russo has launched action in the Federal Court of Australia to have his visa restored.
He said he had a "strong case" to get Dr Haneef his visa back.

"We really need to restore his reputation," Mr Russo said. "The problem that we have in relation to whether or not we sue the (Australian) Government ... we haven't had the opportunity to sit down so that he can be fully informed of what all of his legal rights are."

Dr Haneef said: "I need a little time to think; I want to spend my time with my family at this time and see how it goes."
Mr Russo, who accompanied his client back to India, said Dr Haneef had endured an ordeal that was "difficult to comprehend".
"I found him to be a very humble and honest man and it gave me a great deal of honour and pleasure to assist him," Mr Russo said.
He said his client had cooperated fully with police, and even took the initiative to contact British authorities before his arrest.

Dr Haneef owned a mobile phone SIM card allegedly used in last month's attempted attacks in Britain. The doctor said he had given the card away in Britain before moving to Australia to work.
"He was detained without charge for up to 12 days, and I know that in different countries that isn't regarded as a big issue, but in Australia we have a system that says that shouldn't happen," Mr Russo said.
Calls are mounting for an inquiry into the Haneef case after police were described as bumbling "Keystone Cops" over their handling of the investigation.
But Mr Russo said Australian police were merely "like everyone in the world; there's good ones and there's bad ones".

PPS: "Hatred for Gandhi" ... "over doing it"

Unless telling the facts like they are is "over doing it", I cannot agree with such a statement.

While I was only responding to JayP's usual abuse, here are the facts:

Achyuth Patwardhan, one of the Socialist stalwarts in the Congress, has given a remarkably candid and self critical analysis of the Congress Party vis-a-vis Khilafat: ’It is, however, useful to recognise our