Moral Bankruptcy of Political Leadership in Pakistan

rf#137 sure. blame it on the panjabis while supporting a military dictator whose claim to your support is that he is ethnicity!!
that wont change the reality which you know as well as anyone else.

#129 Posted by tahmed32

... it is the system, not personalities, that is important - and the CJ struggle is fundamentally about the system, not personalities ...

By my saying "the 'public' has little say in who comes to power" I meant that it is the Biradari system in Punjab, the Feudal/Malik System in settled and tribal NWFP respectively, the Wadera System in Sindh, and the Sardari system in Baluchistan which determines who comes to power, and not the public. The wheeling dealing is done by these biradari leaders and waderas etc with the political personalities in return for 'rent' in the new dispensation.

No CJ can change that, can he?

Hope it is clearer now :)

#129 Posted by tahmed32 & #127 Posted by zeemax

Mashallah, Punjabi chauvinism at its best.

Motorway: Linking with Central Asia, strategic. priceless piece of crap just like the total waste motorway.

Economic reforms: what reforms? Changing Banking Chiefs with their cronies apppointed by Abba jee.

And please this CJ feel good factor is another farce, we all know Transperancy Intl had ranked the Judiciary as the Third most corrupt institution right behind Police and Customs. Are we expected to belive everything has become hunky dorey?

Institutions, yes but then again institutions are composed of ppl with their varied cultures, educational backgrounds and work ethics. Not that easy dear Punjabi compatriots, societies evolve over time with positive experiences that process has yet to be verified.

chaltahai#134 dont you have a day job? but i guess three shishapa, laddu, arjun do need your able assistance. :-)

arjun: dont waste your time and my time twisting facts. In any case, I realize you are higher up on the evolutionary ladder because of that prehensile tail that allows you to swing from one rung to another while we poor Pakis have only two legs with which to climb.

Moral bankruptsy..hahahahaha...

the fault lies with the people, people!! Pakistanis do not have the stomach for pains that democracy and self governance brings. They want a messiah..Mohammed, Jinnah, Musharraf, and now...hopefully some other Messiah in the wings.

#131 Posted by tahmed32 on August 2, 2007 8:46:20 am



Just count your blessings as an Indian that you got lucky.


luck had nothing to do with India having a democracy after independence just as luck had nothing to do with pakis dancing in the streets when an elected government was overthrown..


The average Pakistani has as much common sense as any Indian or anyone else on earth.


I beg to differ...the average indian doesn't support the use of islamic jihad as a strategic tool..

it's the islamic terrorism, stupid(peace be unto your self-righteous rear..)...

shishapa #130 you write They (Pakistanis) are still below
Indians in evolutionary ladder.

Dil kay behlaanay ko Ghalib yeh khiyaaL achaa hai :-)

laddu: it was not the Pakistani awaam that overthrew elected governments, but military generals. Just count your blessings as an Indian that you got lucky. The average Pakistani has as much common sense as any Indian or anyone else on earth.

# 128

Pakistanis have to evolve much more. They are still below
Indians in evolutionary ladder. Still crude.
If they had not hounded out their Hindus and Sikhs, they
would have been much better and further ahead.
But hate got them. Till they are ready to not declare
Ahmadias as non-Muslims, they would not arrive.

zeemax: Thanks for the confirmation of what I had heard, and the specific bill through which they fixed some of the economic mess Bhutto had made with his nationalizations.

1. On the sharif braaderaan no doubt had a sound economic vision for Pakistan - in addition to what you have already mentioned, they initiated the highway system (motorways, ring roads envisaged) which will no doubt serve Pakistan well in the long run in terms of benefitting from its strategic location to promote the flow of goods from central asia to sea-ports, in addition to the immediate benefits to the internal economy. They also had a broad view of a post-Indo-Pakistan hostility period that would promoted greater linkage between East and West Panjab.

Compared to incompetent BB, the dysfunctional maulvis and the fauji-foundation musharraf, there is no doubt of the economic vision and capabilities of the sharif brothers. I dont know if I would vote for them, but will grant you this.

2. ON elections: You say that "the 'public' has little say in who comes to power". But that is exactly my point. There is a legitimate struggle in Pakistan today to restore to the 'public' its right to determine via elections on who comes to power, and to be able to replace the incumbent if he/she does not perform. This is not a pie-in-the-sky concept, but something for which Pakistanis were killed on May 12 in their legitimate and peaceful struggle, and something which is within the grasp of the Pakistani public now that musharraf has been forced to back off from trying to destroy the Supreme Court of Pakistan. That is why BB's breaking ranks with the political parties as she seeks to cut private deals with Musharraf could well go down as a historic betrayal of the Pakistani people.

While one can only hope for a peaceful and proper resolution, if we do end up with a proper political framework - it would not require a 'farishta' to rule Pakistan. Like I pointed out earlier, a proper political framework would be robust enough to not permit a Nawaz Sharif from trying to overstay his term in office or to bully other branches of government, it would be robust enough to allow even a proven incompetent like BB or even a maulvi to come to power.

Sorry for the lengthy post. But I think this point (that is, it is the system, not personalities, that is important - and the CJ struggle is fundamentally about the system, not personalities) is important enough to keep in mind particularly in the months ahead in Pakistan.

It took a considerable time for the indian middle class to emerge and that happened only because of the democratic institutions that survived despite its shortcomings.

Actually Pakistan threw the baby away with water when its awaam started looking for "root" causes of its political mess. They threw away democracy by calling it a 'failure', 'unIslamic' and a 'western' concept.

India stuck with the democracy and multiculturalism and did not seek religious 'purity' in political process. Whether it happened consciously or naturally is irrelevant. It is now a historical fact that indian democratic polity is one of the reasons why india could survive and now emerge economically strong despite multi cultural states.
Pakistan should have struck with democracy and should have insisted upon the rule of civilian authority.
Un fortunately this obsession with individuals, prophet like personalities and nizams only made the rise of dictators easier than any one could think in the indian context.

#125 Posted by tahmed32,

The NS Government placed the economy on track towards global integration with 'Protection of Economic Reforms Act, 1992' promulgated in his first tenure. That was the lead followed by Man Mohan Singh, the then FM of India.

Re privatizations, he was the one who replaced the bureaucrats heading banks etc with skilled professionals (e.g Shaukat Tareen) to turn them around and clean out the balance sheets in preparation for privatizations.

Re elections, of-course you know that the 'public' has little say in who comes to power. It is only and has always been a contest between 'political personalities' - CJ or no CJ. The only difference is that this time these may indeed be 'free and fair'. But only one of the existing political players can come to power. You will not see any new 'farishta' emerge.

Re: # 121
Abey Be-dil-dabbey

Hindu dhoti is better than a mullah's dirty potty filled shalwaar.

makkar would be a good description of hypocrite "Islamic" idiots.

#113 zeemax: I agree with you on both the pluses and minuses of Sharif braderaan. In fact, I am told that the post-Soviet switch from nationalized industries to privatized ones was done for the first time under Nawaz Sharif (Manmohan Singh, then finance minister in India, followed this cue). (I am not sure how correct this is, and would be glad for any correction or confirmation of this from anyone).

Within a proper political framework, in fact, thee minuses of Sharif would have been neutralized - financing of the Raiwind estate would be checked by an independent auditor. Similarly, there are clearly checks and balances in democratic countries against physical assaults on the Supreme Court as well as attempts at using political means to prolong the prime minister's term in office indefinitely.

That is why I think it is more interesting at this stage to see the outcome of the struggle between the Chief Justice and the military (and I think the real struggle is going to take place in the months ahead, even though things have quieted down on the streets for now), than to be concerned about which particular party wins elections.

Re: # 57

"Is there a communist party in Pakistan?"

Yes. There are several. There is a Communist Party of Pakistan. There is the Mazdoor Kissan Party of the Stalinist bent... there is the Labour Party which is trotskyite...

And then are splinter groups... several...