Moral Bankruptcy of Political Leadership in Pakistan

#169 Posted by cliftonbridge,

Cliftonbridge, the feudal lords, Bibi/baba etc did not have us on the brink of economic collapse. It was the US sanctions throughout the 90s which had Pakistan on the brink of collapse. Everything was of-course forgotten after 9/11.

Pakistan was economically much worse on 11 September 2001 than it was on 12 October 1999.

Read my FP article The Myth of Growth:Pakistan's Lost Opportunity

So give due credit to 9/11 (gyarhween shareef), and not musharraf.... !

Masadi sahib,

I presume you would believe that Mush and teh current Pak Army set up is anyways working on the behalf of the imperialist forces. So why bother removing one figurehead and place another. Might as well just blackmail/co-erce Mush into greater co-operation.

Regards

TAhmed sahab what made you say rf786's support for Mush was ethnically motivated? I think he made some really good points i dont think you should automatically dismiss them.

Pakistani's have the shortest attention spans ever, it wasnt so long ago that the feudal lords had us on the brink of economic collapse. And we'll be lucky if the next round of Bibi/baba works out any better. Doesnt help to start out denying the past.

#167 Zeemax writes "What do you read into that masadi?"

I read into it what I have been saying for months now and what was written at the end of 163:

"I think the "Musharraf" part of the game has reached its final turning point. The guy's goose is cooked.....literally..."

The US wants him out and the Pak Army will arrange it for them .........the Americans figure: what better way to remove his uniform than to cook his a$$... = )

#166 Posted by masadi,

Yes. Some US woman representative of the embassy was saying that they will not support 'uniform' if it stands in the way of elections.

What do you read into that masadi?

Ha ha, #163 below I wrote on Aug 3 that the deal has failed, and today August 5 both are hostile to each other in the open....and the issue, the Uniform......note #163 carefully again, there is something else that says which will come to pass soon enough....in all probability...

#158 Posted by abu_safwaan

[...lets try something different that has worked for other nations namely TRUE DEMOCRACY..not the Muslims Q kind. ]

It is not a coincidence that there is not a single Muslim country that has a true democracy. Turkey doesn't. Malayasia doesn't. The reason Turkey has a semi-Islamic government as opposed to a fully Islamic one is because Europe is right next door. The reason Malayasia has a quasi-democratic government is because it is 40% non-Muslim. All these Muslim countries have different cultures and different histories - but only two things in common - they are ALL Islamic, and ALL undemocratic.

The reason this is so is that in any Islamic country, for any opposition party, Islam becomes a convenient tool and a cause that they can get common people to rally around. In any democracy, there will always be lots of people with complaints and grievances. And these people's grievances can always be channelised in the cause of Islam, and the people can be easily rallied under the flag of Islam. The opposition leaders start playing on the people's Islamic sentiments - it is a cause that NOBODY dares to oppose. Pretty soon you have leaders trying to outdo each other in religious fervor - and it becomes a downward spiral from there.

This is not possible with ANY OTHER religion. It is only possible with Islam. And THIS IS WHY there will NEVER be any Islamic country with TRUE democracy.

This is the truth. This is how it is. Unfortunately. Regardless of whther I am a "damn Hindu" or a "Hater".

Re: # 158

Dear Abu Safwan Sahib

Agreed.

Musharraf's deal with the Americans (and their chosen prospect for Pakistani leadership, the BB) have failed. Today the Bushman called him to deliver a final warning about his insistance on keeping his uniform and being president at the same time. The Americans wont let their previous peon ruin the timetable they have set for their "Iran project". The crisis that will preempt that has to be manufactured by the ISI and the Pakistan Amry leadership, and the Musharraf-man is standing in the way of its smooth execution. I think the "Musharraf" part of the game has reached its final turning point. The guy's goose is cooked.....literally...

tahmed,

If you ever get over your anger, read my post #150. There, I provided you with what you had earliler asked for. So I am not sure what to make of your outburst in #151. I am tempted to guess that you did not read #150 and simply assumed what it said.

Khair. The very first revelation from Quran was “Iqra”. In the same spirit, I can only remind you: Read, idiot; read.

Portions of Abdus Salam's speech

"GAUGE UNIFICATION OF FUNDAMENTAL FORCES

Scientific thought and its creation is the common and shared heritage of mankind. In this respect, the history of science, like the history of all civilization, has gone through cycles. Perhaps I can illustrate this with an
actual example.

Seven hundred and sixty years ago, a young Scotsman left his native glens to travel south to Toledo in Spain. His name was Michael, his goal to live and work at the Arab Universities of Toledo and Cordova, where the
greatest of Jewish scholars, Moses bin Maimoun, had taught a generation before.

Michael reached Toledo in 1217 AD. Once in Toledo, Michael formed the ambitious project of introducing Aristotle to Latin Europe, translating not from the original Greek, which he did not know, but from the Arabic translation then taught in Spain. From Toledo, Michael travelled to Sicily,
to the Court of Emperor Frederick II.

Visiting the medical school at Salerno, chartered by Frederick in 1231, Michael met the Danish physician, Henrik Harpestraeng - later to become Court Physician of King Erik Plovpenning. Henrik had come to Salerno to compose his treatise on blood-letting and surgery. Henrik’s sources were the medical canons of the great clinicians of Islam, Al-Razi and Avicenna, which only Michael the Scot could translate for him.

Toledo’s and Salerno’s schools, representing as they did the finest synthesis of Arabic, Greek, Latin and Hebrew scholarship, were some of the most memorable of international assays in scientific collaboration. To
Toledo and Salerno came scholars not only from the rich countries of the East and the South, like Syria, Egypt, Iran and Afghanistan, but also from developing lands of the West and the North like Scotland and Scandinavia.
Then, as now, there were obstacles to this international scientific concourse, with an economic and intellectual disparity between different parts of the world. Men like Michael the Scot or Henrik Harpestraeng were singularities. They did not represent any flourishing schools of research in their own countries. With all the best will in the world their teachers at Toledo and Salerno doubted the wisdom and value of training them for advanced scientific research. At least one of his masters counselled young Michael the Scot to go back to clipping sheep and to the weaving of woollen cloth.

In respect of this cycle of scientific disparity, perhaps I can be more quantitative. George Sarton, in his monumental five-volume History of Science chose to divide his story of achievement in sciences into ages, each age lasting half a century. With each half century he associated one central
figure. Thus 450 BC - 400 BC Sarton calls the Age of Plato; this is followed by half centuries of Aristotle, of Euclid, of Archimedes and so on.

From 600 AD to 650 AD is the Chinese half century of Hsiian Tsang, from 650 to 700 AD that of I-Ching, and then from 750 AD to 1100 AD - 350 years continuously - it is the unbroken succession of the Ages of Jabir, Khwarizmi, Razi, Masudi, Wafa, Biruni and Avicenna, and then Omar Khayam - Arabs, Turks, Afghans and Persians - men belonging to the
culture of Islam. After 1100 appear the first Western names; Gerard of Cremona, Roger Bacon - but the honours are still shared with the names of Ibn-Rushd (Averroes), Moses Bin Maimoun, Tusi and Ibn-Nafi-the man who anticipated Harvey’s theory of circulation of blood. No Sarton
has yet chronicled the history of scientific creativity among the pre-Spanish Mayas and Aztecs, with their invention of the zero, of the calendars of the ‘moon and Venus and of their diverse pharmacological discoveries, including quinine, but the outline of the story is the same - one of undoubted superiority to the Western contemporary correlates.

After 1350, however, the developing world loses out except for the occasional flash of scientific work, like that of Ulugh Beg - the grandson of Timurlane, in Samarkand in 1400 AD; or of Maharaja Jai Singh of Jaipur in 1720 - who corrected the serious errors of the then Western tables of
eclipses of the sun and the moon by as much as six minutes of arc. As it was, Jai Singh’s techniques were surpassed soon after with the development of the telescope in Europe. As a contemporary Indian chronicler wrote: “With him on the funeral pyre, expired also all science in the East.”
And this brings us to this century when the cycle begun by Michael the Scot turns full circle, and it is we in the developing world who turn to the Westwards for science. As Al-Kindi wrote 1100 years ago: “It is fitting then
for us not to be ashamed to acknowledge and to assimilate it from whatever source it comes to us. For him who scales the truth there is nothing of higher value than truth itself; it never cheapens nor abases him.”

Ladies and Gentlemen,

It is in the spirit of Al-Kindi that I start my lecture with a sincere expression of gratitude to the modern equivalents of the Universities of Toledo and Cordova, which I have been privileged to be associated with Cambridge, Imperial College, and the Centre at Trieste.

Interesting:

"Abdus Salam's speech at the Nobel Banquet, December 10, 1979

Your Majesties, Excellencies, Ladies and Gentlemen,

On behalf of my colleagues, Professor Glashow and Weinberg, I thank the Nobel Foundation and the Royal Academy of Sciences for the great honour and the courtesies extended to us, including the courtesy to me of being addressed in my language Urdu.

Pakistan is deeply indebted to you for this.

The creation of Physics is the shared heritage of all mankind. East and West, North and South have equally participated in it. In the Holy Book of Islam, Allah says

"Thou seest not, in the creation of the All-merciful any imperfection, Return thy gaze, seest thou any fissure. Then Return thy gaze, again and again. Thy gaze, Comes back to thee dazzled, aweary."

This in effect is, the faith of all physicists; the deeper we seek, the more is our wonder excited, the more is the dazzlement for our gaze.

I am saying this, not only to remind those here tonight of this, but also for those in the Third World, who feel they have lost out in the pursuit of scientific knowledge, for lack of opportunity and resource.

Alfred Nobel stipulated that no distinction of race or colour will determine who received of his generosity. On this occasion, let me say this to those, whom God has given His Bounty. Let us strive to provide equal opportunities to all so that they can engage in the creation of Physics and science for the benefit of all mankind. This would exactly be in the spirit of Alfred Nobel and the ideals which permeated his life. Bless You!

GT writes " Are you saying that the whole SC episode is a poodle dance "

Yes that is what I was saying all along, it was Army sponsored, Army executed and Army decided....the whole shebang, though in the midst it did achieve a dynamic of its own among a limited segment. The article I posted was proof in so far as history shows institutional regularity, and there was nothing in the current episode that would prove a "structure changing" revolution...

Arif Bhai,

its not dictatorship thats the issue, its incompetence and corruption and not just of the financial kind either. If any of the dictators that we have been awarded with had the moral character to rid or even tried to break the status-quo by taking meaningful steps to abolish slavery of jageerdars, tried to eliminate the prevalent class system, demolished or just tried demolishing evil bureaucracy and instead of sleeping with the corrupt and thali kayy baygan syasatdaan to just prolong their dicatorship and actually did something to improve the sorry conditions of masses, believe u me pakistani nation wouldnt be this turned off by the name musharaf.

its not that civilians would be much better, its the fact that for the past 60 years we have been trying armed forces at the helm of affairs, how can it be any worse, lets try something different that has worked for other nations namely TRUE DEMOCRACY..not the Muslims Q kind.

good article...

Re: # 148

Deedee

Says who? Regurgigating western propganda does not make it right. Hitler and El Prezidento Bush elected democracies both can be proud of their human right achievements. Its all relative, that maybe difficult for your monolithic mindset to comprehend.

Re: # 148

Dee dee

{the poorest democracy is far far better than the best dictatorship...}


Says who and based on what data? Regurgigating popularized yet unsubstantiated cliches does not help your cause. Do u even know the history of democracy, seems not. Hitler and Bush elected democrats have human right records that even Stalin envies.

Its all relative, then again that maybe a touch difficult for monolithic mindsets such as yours.

Re: # 131

bhai mere, what I mean is that the junta accepted the army propaganda and justification about the 'failure' of democratic process , on the other hand it celeberated the coup and thanked the dictator.

PS: Does anyone understand what tahmed is talking about? Is he able to read or not? Or did I miss something?

tahmed, you fool,

Discussing something with you is like being in a ring with a bull. You see nothing … and only stomp your hooves and charge.

Read my earlier post, you idiot (#150). I quoted you and provided a link to your post … which was what you had asked for. As it shows, you were in full support of atomic bombs.

I don’t need to paint you as anything; you come across as dumber than a rock. So spare me your rants …

sattar2 #150 I told you not to try and be overclever, but looks like you ignored that too!!

This is what I wrote yesterday in my post #73 in response to unsolicited and lengthy posts attributing to me views on nagasaki and hiroshima: sattar: I suggest you cut and paste what I wrote. I am not going to enter into a discussion on any issue with you based on what you claim I wrote.

You disappeared, and now come back ignoring the reason I told you to go find what I actually wrote rather than what you claim I wrote, and you have the gall to imply instead that I had used "memory loss" as an excuse!!

So let me be a bit more blunt than before: it is not nagasaki or hiroshima you are interested in. It is pushing your prophet Mirza, the sole subject that you have ever shown interest in on chowk over the past 7 years. And it is not nagasaki and hirshima that you have developed a sudden interest in that you wish to discuss with me - it is to paint me as an evil person by attributing murderous views to me without burdening yourself with what I actually wrote.
During your seven years or so on chowk, your entire focus has been on pushing your prophet Mirza and demonizing anyone who refuses to acknowledge. Nothing else matters to you, not in Pakistan, not in the subcontinent, and certainly not in Japan!!

Not satisfied with my repeated refusal to engage in religius discussions with you, not accepting my request to not keep forcing your religious views on my when I say "to you be your way, and to me be mine", you have been trying to demonize me by attributing murderous views to me on hiroshima and nagasaki.

So, once again, I am requesting you: I am not interested in any discussions with you, so please stop wasting your time and mine trying to engage me in discussions. On religious issues, I have been telling you politely "to you be your way and to me be mine", so please respect that and stop trying every trick you can to make me look like an evil person for rejecting your religious views.

Kindly spare me and yourself the embarrassment of having to keep telling you off. Attend to your business, or go push your religious views to someone who is actually interested in such discussions with you.

Last post to you. I wish you a good day.

tahmed,

This was not meant to be a memory test, so don’t get too hung up on cut-and-pastes of what you wrote. If you "know" your view, that alone should be enough. But since echo has already done the work, refer to the link below to your post #96 on anther board.

You seem to be suggesting that dropping of atomic bombs cured residents of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, as well as the rest of Japanese nation, of their arrogance. This, in your mind, is a reason good enough to bomb into annihilation tens (hundreds?) of thousands of civilians: women, children, men, elderly, newly weds, toddlers - not to mention toll on the survivors and their next generations.

Your view seems very similar to that of suicide bombers, who blow up civilians to settle scores.

Here’s an excerpt that sums it up:

”Just as the sacrifices of the allied soldiers to the world a giant step closer to the ideals of the equality of man. By putting an end to the japanese and german love for war by giving them a taste of their own medicine in Hiroshima and Nagasaki and Dresden and other german and japanese cities.“

Click []

when army..is in land mafia generals...with DHA princes...

aur raal tapaak rahee hai Gwadar kai liyai..

can they fight in war....

Oh bhai..rf ..

the poorest democracy is far far better than the best dictatorship...
grow up man...

Re: # 139

Musharraf for all his dictatorial drawbacks remains a better statesman when compared to imbeciles such as NS of Tinda sharif. You remember what u wish to remember because NS is a Punjabi. lets do a quick histroy check of this idiot:

1. Handpicked by the army (Zia lul phuck)and groomed as Punjabi finance minister

2. Ittefaq Foundaries grew 30x in value

3. Part of the JAAG PUNJABI JAAG mantra that was used against BB (PPP) in 1988 courtesy Gen Hameed Gul

4. Part of the ISI conspiracy to upset PPP electoral support

5. Issuance of countless SRO's for their personal benefits

6. You mentioned motorway, RS35.5BN spent to link Lahore and Islamabad, for what?

7. Appointment of Punjabi cronies in major institutions

8. Ballooning fiscal debt because of uncontrolled expenditures and corruption

9. Declining Forex reserves

10. Rising foreign debt

11. Forging State economic statistics for foreign debtors

12. Freezing of NRP Dollar accounts while NS and family moved their own money out of Pakistan

13. Pandering to the Taliban

14. Storming the Supreme Court

15. Cooperative scandal

16. Stock market peaked in their first tenure and remained in a bear trend for the next 8 years.

If you wish, we could add many more inept and corrupt decisions of this paindoo, but then again he is from lahore and everything can be forgiven.

Re: # 143

better for you not to talk..about democracy....

daal bhaji ...dai pakoria khanai walai...

makkari ..aur ayyari kee democracy....

by up governing for 60 years...till this PM is from Punjaab...

ancestoral heirarchy..is your hall mark..in nehru family...

Nawaz Sharif is not angel..
he also did mistakes...

but over the whole political scene...he is left only..popular among 4 provinces...

accept it or not...

arai bhai...andho mai kana raja...

#140/141 Posted by tahmed32,

Agreed. Conditions are certainly better after the CJ movement. Only thing is the time for waiting for centuries is gone. With the media and the global connectivity, the sense of deprivation accelerates and no one is willing to wait two hundred years to get what is theirs :)

tahmed, phat gayi already? Pakis do not have the intestinal fortitude to withstand democracy. Pakistan would have been the bestest place for pakistanis if it was in arabia in the 7th century

#139 Posted by tahmed32,

More appropriately, you may ask the chtuya of #137 how much the motorways cost and who paid for them under the BOT deal ... or indeed whether he knows what a BOT deal is ... :)

#138 zeemax: no doubt political institutions are work in progress. It has taken UK centuries of slow but steady progress to transfer power from one man (the king) to noblemen and then to the people. Even the US has taken two centuries, a bloody civil war, major legislations (notably the Civil Rights act) and government actions (e.g. against Tammany Hall corruption in New York city government), and the struggle goes on even today not just to keep moving forward but to keep from slipping backward.

Thus, I am not saying that the CJ is a man on the white horse who will magically switch Pakistan into a totally rational society, dedicated to the common good. What I am saying is that conditions are better today (thanks to the CJ, lawyers, political parties, the people) than they have ever been for a historical step forward.

Hope this clarifies too. :-)

#138 zeemax: no doubt political institutions are work in progress. It has taken UK centuries of slow but steady progress to transfer power from one man (the king) to noblemen and then to the people. Even the US has taken two centuries, a bloody civil war, major legislations (notably the Civil Rights act) and government actions (e.g. against Tammany Hall corruption in New York city government), and the struggle goes on even today not just to keep moving forward but to keep from slipping backward.

Thus, I am not saying that the CJ is a man on the white horse who will magically switch Pakistan into a totally rational society, dedicated to the common good. What I am saying is that conditions are better today (thanks to the CJ, lawyers, political parties, the people) than they have ever been for a historical step forward.

Hope this clarifies too. :-)

rf#137 sure. blame it on the panjabis while supporting a military dictator whose claim to your support is that he is ethnicity!!
that wont change the reality which you know as well as anyone else.

#129 Posted by tahmed32

... it is the system, not personalities, that is important - and the CJ struggle is fundamentally about the system, not personalities ...

By my saying "the 'public' has little say in who comes to power" I meant that it is the Biradari system in Punjab, the Feudal/Malik System in settled and tribal NWFP respectively, the Wadera System in Sindh, and the Sardari system in Baluchistan which determines who comes to power, and not the public. The wheeling dealing is done by these biradari leaders and waderas etc with the political personalities in return for 'rent' in the new dispensation.

No CJ can change that, can he?

Hope it is clearer now :)

#129 Posted by tahmed32 & #127 Posted by zeemax

Mashallah, Punjabi chauvinism at its best.

Motorway: Linking with Central Asia, strategic. priceless piece of crap just like the total waste motorway.

Economic reforms: what reforms? Changing Banking Chiefs with their cronies apppointed by Abba jee.

And please this CJ feel good factor is another farce, we all know Transperancy Intl had ranked the Judiciary as the Third most corrupt institution right behind Police and Customs. Are we expected to belive everything has become hunky dorey?

Institutions, yes but then again institutions are composed of ppl with their varied cultures, educational backgrounds and work ethics. Not that easy dear Punjabi compatriots, societies evolve over time with positive experiences that process has yet to be verified.

chaltahai#134 dont you have a day job? but i guess three shishapa, laddu, arjun do need your able assistance. :-)

arjun: dont waste your time and my time twisting facts. In any case, I realize you are higher up on the evolutionary ladder because of that prehensile tail that allows you to swing from one rung to another while we poor Pakis have only two legs with which to climb.

Moral bankruptsy..hahahahaha...

the fault lies with the people, people!! Pakistanis do not have the stomach for pains that democracy and self governance brings. They want a messiah..Mohammed, Jinnah, Musharraf, and now...hopefully some other Messiah in the wings.

#131 Posted by tahmed32 on August 2, 2007 8:46:20 am



Just count your blessings as an Indian that you got lucky.


luck had nothing to do with India having a democracy after independence just as luck had nothing to do with pakis dancing in the streets when an elected government was overthrown..


The average Pakistani has as much common sense as any Indian or anyone else on earth.


I beg to differ...the average indian doesn't support the use of islamic jihad as a strategic tool..

it's the islamic terrorism, stupid(peace be unto your self-righteous rear..)...

shishapa #130 you write They (Pakistanis) are still below
Indians in evolutionary ladder.

Dil kay behlaanay ko Ghalib yeh khiyaaL achaa hai :-)

laddu: it was not the Pakistani awaam that overthrew elected governments, but military generals. Just count your blessings as an Indian that you got lucky. The average Pakistani has as much common sense as any Indian or anyone else on earth.

# 128

Pakistanis have to evolve much more. They are still below
Indians in evolutionary ladder. Still crude.
If they had not hounded out their Hindus and Sikhs, they
would have been much better and further ahead.
But hate got them. Till they are ready to not declare
Ahmadias as non-Muslims, they would not arrive.

zeemax: Thanks for the confirmation of what I had heard, and the specific bill through which they fixed some of the economic mess Bhutto had made with his nationalizations.

1. On the sharif braaderaan no doubt had a sound economic vision for Pakistan - in addition to what you have already mentioned, they initiated the highway system (motorways, ring roads envisaged) which will no doubt serve Pakistan well in the long run in terms of benefitting from its strategic location to promote the flow of goods from central asia to sea-ports, in addition to the immediate benefits to the internal economy. They also had a broad view of a post-Indo-Pakistan hostility period that would promoted greater linkage between East and West Panjab.

Compared to incompetent BB, the dysfunctional maulvis and the fauji-foundation musharraf, there is no doubt of the economic vision and capabilities of the sharif brothers. I dont know if I would vote for them, but will grant you this.

2. ON elections: You say that "the 'public' has little say in who comes to power". But that is exactly my point. There is a legitimate struggle in Pakistan today to restore to the 'public' its right to determine via elections on who comes to power, and to be able to replace the incumbent if he/she does not perform. This is not a pie-in-the-sky concept, but something for which Pakistanis were killed on May 12 in their legitimate and peaceful struggle, and something which is within the grasp of the Pakistani public now that musharraf has been forced to back off from trying to destroy the Supreme Court of Pakistan. That is why BB's breaking ranks with the political parties as she seeks to cut private deals with Musharraf could well go down as a historic betrayal of the Pakistani people.

While one can only hope for a peaceful and proper resolution, if we do end up with a proper political framework - it would not require a 'farishta' to rule Pakistan. Like I pointed out earlier, a proper political framework would be robust enough to not permit a Nawaz Sharif from trying to overstay his term in office or to bully other branches of government, it would be robust enough to allow even a proven incompetent like BB or even a maulvi to come to power.

Sorry for the lengthy post. But I think this point (that is, it is the system, not personalities, that is important - and the CJ struggle is fundamentally about the system, not personalities) is important enough to keep in mind particularly in the months ahead in Pakistan.

It took a considerable time for the indian middle class to emerge and that happened only because of the democratic institutions that survived despite its shortcomings.

Actually Pakistan threw the baby away with water when its awaam started looking for "root" causes of its political mess. They threw away democracy by calling it a 'failure', 'unIslamic' and a 'western' concept.

India stuck with the democracy and multiculturalism and did not seek religious 'purity' in political process. Whether it happened consciously or naturally is irrelevant. It is now a historical fact that indian democratic polity is one of the reasons why india could survive and now emerge economically strong despite multi cultural states.
Pakistan should have struck with democracy and should have insisted upon the rule of civilian authority.
Un fortunately this obsession with individuals, prophet like personalities and nizams only made the rise of dictators easier than any one could think in the indian context.

#125 Posted by tahmed32,

The NS Government placed the economy on track towards global integration with 'Protection of Economic Reforms Act, 1992' promulgated in his first tenure. That was the lead followed by Man Mohan Singh, the then FM of India.

Re privatizations, he was the one who replaced the bureaucrats heading banks etc with skilled professionals (e.g Shaukat Tareen) to turn them around and clean out the balance sheets in preparation for privatizations.

Re elections, of-course you know that the 'public' has little say in who comes to power. It is only and has always been a contest between 'political personalities' - CJ or no CJ. The only difference is that this time these may indeed be 'free and fair'. But only one of the existing political players can come to power. You will not see any new 'farishta' emerge.

Re: # 121
Abey Be-dil-dabbey

Hindu dhoti is better than a mullah's dirty potty filled shalwaar.

makkar would be a good description of hypocrite "Islamic" idiots.

#113 zeemax: I agree with you on both the pluses and minuses of Sharif braderaan. In fact, I am told that the post-Soviet switch from nationalized industries to privatized ones was done for the first time under Nawaz Sharif (Manmohan Singh, then finance minister in India, followed this cue). (I am not sure how correct this is, and would be glad for any correction or confirmation of this from anyone).

Within a proper political framework, in fact, thee minuses of Sharif would have been neutralized - financing of the Raiwind estate would be checked by an independent auditor. Similarly, there are clearly checks and balances in democratic countries against physical assaults on the Supreme Court as well as attempts at using political means to prolong the prime minister's term in office indefinitely.

That is why I think it is more interesting at this stage to see the outcome of the struggle between the Chief Justice and the military (and I think the real struggle is going to take place in the months ahead, even though things have quieted down on the streets for now), than to be concerned about which particular party wins elections.

Re: # 57

"Is there a communist party in Pakistan?"

Yes. There are several. There is a Communist Party of Pakistan. There is the Mazdoor Kissan Party of the Stalinist bent... there is the Labour Party which is trotskyite...

And then are splinter groups... several...

LOL....

truth is bitter ...arjun babu...kya bola ..theek...

who is this new inbred retard dawa-i-ass?

Hindu dhoti smells like Haldi..Bhaji....

better we make a monkey a PM of Pakistan than a hindu....makkar qaum....

Hey, why not let Pakistan appoint a Hindu Prime Minister.

I am sure this would neutralize the Islamists jumping up and down like monkeys.

justice Ramdai...a judge who changed the history of pakistan...a day before yesterday..order to put down ..a 10 storey ...hospital..with name Masood hospital..on ferozpur Road ..Lahore...


this hospitl was made on Chor Bazari...with giving money to LDA and inspectors of bulidings..illegaly....

SC ordered that all the plazas of Lahore will have to face the same result....

there is geeart hustkle and bustle in Liberty ..Gulberg ..and Shah Allmi plazs..which have been made toatlly illegaly...by bribery to LDA....


the Dr Masood..the owner of hospital..engaged a US NGO and wrote letter ot PM Shaukat and Mushy....to stop SC of pakistn ...from destroying the Masood Hospital....

In a very angry mood..Justice Ramdai remarked...who arePM and resident to interfere in the orders of SC ....They should do thier own work....we know...what we have to do....PM should not interfere in provincial affiars..ordered by SC....

Yesterday...whole Maood Hospital was sealed..and today..machinery is brought to destroy it ..within 3 months ..era...given by SC to LDA Director general...



its seems that SC is on the new way...of bright pakistan....

and fear of a Dictator..became a old times story...

Maulana fazlur Rahman urf Mulla Disesel..is showing usual hypocrisy ..over the leaving assemblies and balochstan government where he is ally with PML(Q)....

Javed hashmi...PML(N) top most leader in Pakistan...will inshallh be soon out of prison after 4 or 5 long years....


Pa jee...Ifti...nai kharkha diya hai sub ko....

Mushy pagal ka bachhai hai..jis nai phadda kiya ...Ifti sai...

janta nahee ta...CJ kee kitni power hoti hai....

kabeer Ali Wasti...PML(Q) senior vice president said yesterday....


if Dictator ..try to make my party by pass by dealing with PPPP....my party will resist fully....

He said that...President shold..leave uniform..and re-elect from next assemblies...

he is the most powerful supporter of CJ of pakistan...in past..and said that...this case changed the history of Pakistan...

Its seems that there is a major seperation..even in Lota league for this deal of 2 power hungry...ullu kai phattai...

Thereis a complete destruction..and quiteness...in PML(Q) ...even in PPPP...for deal...as both were not awre of this sudden meeting of Dictator with BB....

there was a hot fight ....on GEO Hamid Meer..capital talk...with Dr.Firdaud Aashiq awan..with Raza Hayat Hiraj...as why she left PML..and joined PPPP..recently...


Ch. Shujaat Hussain..yesterday said...Nawaz Sharif is fully allowed to come in pakistan...nobody will stop him....

Justice Fakhuruddin J Ibrahim..is going to file petion f NS in SC today.....

its seems that Chaudris ..are not happy with deal..as both PML and PPPP are idelogically at 180 degress....

its seems that Chaudris are producing soft corner for PML(N)....

as to offer pressure on PPPP and Dicataor...as they all are old times friends..though ..for 7 years...are not on good terms...

Ch Ietzaz Ahsan said in GEO parliment Cafeteria..with Asma Chaudry that...

BB have discussion not deal..and deal will not be accepted by the people or PPPP workers...

he said that ...he can be a lawyers against the government when the matter of uniform will go in SC....

Khurram...post 69

GEO and ARY ONE zindabad...

#99 Posted by tahmed32

...and btw, you seem to have decided to vote for some party. Let me ask you: Which party is it, and why are you so confident as to commit to voting for it at this early stage?

I had answered this specific question of yours I think a month ago on UP, and many times in other posts. It is the Sharif brothers. The reasons are their proven track record in achieving a national consensus on complicated and bitterly fought issues between provinces, and successfully setting and implementing an economic agenda which is followed to this date - all in two short and incomplete terms of no more than 2.5 years each while at the same time being sanctioned to the hilt.

Now please don't go on about the supreme court disturbance, the Rai-Wind Estate, the 15th amendment and so forth. Their pluses far outweigh their minuses, and they and their team hold great promise.

#95 Posted by tahmed32

masadi #92...Now go back and write 5 more posts.

I'm glad to note that masadi saheb has been promoted from your samosa fetching duties to writing duties ... :)

Re: # 108

GT saheb,


Why I am against Islamists? Bhai saheb, I am a hindu. My head would be the first to go if these Islamists were to gain power.

Hey, do not put words in my mouth.

I said all Islamists are conspiracy theorists.

I did not assert the converse that

All conspiracy theorists are Islamists.

There is no need to ascribe illogical assertions of yours to me.

After reading the interacts on this board especially from Islamists like Masadi who are ready to

Simon_Templar #106 you write I believe that Musharraf, with all his human failings, is doing God's work in Pakistan

God's work, as on May 12? Or as in allowing maulvis to turn mosques into armed camps under his nose, and intimidate people in Islamabad, and act only when told by some foreign nation (Chinese, Americans) to get his act together. And btw, I thought you were for Islamist rule in Pakistan? what happened??

you continue: Benazir will probably get taken out by a suicide bomber and be replaced with a more dignified, urdu-speaking Aitezaz Ahsan.

"dignified, urdu-speaking"?? You just answered my question about what happened above. Ethnicism trumps Islamism.

Perhaps I am being unfair, in which case if you would care to explain I am all ears. Alternatively, you can take the masadi route of showering abuse to any questioning of your views.

masadi: will keep busting your posts so that the others on here can see through your hypocritical, US worshipping veil of contrived sincerity.

I am shivering with fear...

#107 Posted by laddu:

laddu ji,

I visited your profile page but could not get a clue as to why you are against these Islamists! What are they anyway? From your post they seem to be a set of perverse people who indulge in conspiracy theory/ies.

Ok, OK .... I get it. Oliver Stone is an Islamist .. whew! stooopid me.

Re: # 104

Actually conspiracy theory is the best way to absolve some one of his criminal activities.
Commit a crime and blame it on some one else.

There you go.

Conspiracy theory is the core argument of an Islamist to justify HIS OWN PERVERSIONS.

"Tale of an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing". [Shakespeare, Macbeth]

When you sit down to write a piece on politics, I suggest that you have something personal to add, something new to explore or a different slant on the subject. This, however, is the same yakkity-yak that you hear day-in and day-out. Benazir corrupt, Musharraf should go, our country sucks, blah blah. It's a rehash of the talking heads on TV and not a good one at that.

What I want from you (or any Tarzan out there who believes he is a political pundit) are the reason(s) why you think Pakistan is where it's at and how we can get to, where you think we ought to be. Of course, you run the risk of mass ridicule and charges of being a schmuck, but you will be a daring, original schmuck --and that's worth your trouble.

PS: I believe that Musharraf, with all his human failings, is doing God's work in Pakistan and he should continue as president-in-uniform for at least the next 5 years. The Chaudhry brothers can be replaced with a more suitable and coherent political 'front', in exchange for cushy minister portfolios. Benazir will probably get taken out by a suicide bomber and be replaced with a more dignified, urdu-speaking Aitezaz Ahsan.

[they were presented with empty pieces of paper from which to read.]

Any author who writes THAT is not worth reading.

#103 Posted by masadi

masadi,

Baseer Naveed, in the article, argues that the judiciary WAS the military's poodle. You are claiming that the judiciary IS still the military's poodle and the military is Bush's poodle. Are you saying that the whole SC episode is a poodle dance and Baseer's article is some sort of a proof of your assertion?

Here is an article I came across, nice history lesson for those who are saying that the military had nothing to do with the SC decision:

-------

Human Rights Activist Traces the History of a Judiciary Ignores Law in Favor of 'Necessity'


By Baseer Naveed

A retired senior judge recently told of an incident that reveals the contempt with which Pakistan's army holds the judiciary. Justice Nasir Aslam Zahid, who had served on the Supreme Court and had been Chief Justice of Sindh, told nationwide Geo TV on June 4 that when the Supreme Court judges went to take their oath of office under the new military government in 2000, they were presented with empty pieces of paper from which to read.

The higher court judges had been ordered on January 19 to take a new oath under a provisional constitutional order, some three months after General Pervez Musharraf had taken power and scrapped the constitution. According to Justice Zahid, when they were to take the oath the following day, the registrar gave the judges blank forms from which they were to recite. Egged on by Justice Irshad Hassan Khan, who then became chief justice, they took their oaths without seeing any text. Well, at least some of them did: Justice Saeed-uz-Zaman was not among them. Army personnel had surrounded his house while a colonel kept him in his chair, and out of the bench. It seems that the army was trying to spare him the indignity of the oath-taking pantomime.

The story would be funny were it told on a comedy program and not by a retired judge. Unfortunately, it only serves to remind us of how Pakistan's judiciary has debased itself over the last half-century. General Musharraf may have said in recent weeks that he is "nobody's poodle", but there is no question that the judiciary is his poodle--or that of whichever general happens to be in power at the time.

Whenever Pakistan's top judges have been faced with a critical decision on the constitution or military rule, they have gone to the door of General Headquarters in order to be told what to iterate in the Supreme Court. The iteration is the same, and its genesis was in a strange idea known as the "doctrine of necessity".


In 1954, just seven years after the creation of Pakistan, Governor General Ghulam Mohammad dissolved the first constitutional assembly and the government of Prime Minister Khawaja Nazimuddin. The president of the assembly, Maulvi Tamizuddin, challenged him in the Sindh High Court and won: the dissolution was held to be illegal and unconstitutional.

On appeal to the Chief Court of Pakistan, which was later renamed the Supreme Court, Chief Justice Munir decided in favour of the governor general. The basis for his decision was the "doctrine of necessity": meaning that to preserve the country the constitution had to be abandoned.

From this point on, a so-called doctrine, rather than the constitution, national or international law, became the basis for every decision on the legitimacy of a military takeover. With one blow, Chief Justice Munir destroyed the foundations of constitutional rule in Pakistan. In one move, he opened wide the door for the army to walk into government any time it wanted.

It didn't take too long for that to happen: in 1958 General Ayub Khan imposed martial law, dissolved both assemblies of parliament and abrogated the 1956 Constitution. His coup was challenged in the Supreme Court, which held--wait for it--that it was legal, "in accordance with the doctrine of necessity." Thanks to this judgment, the general ruled for nearly 11 years, during which time all civil liberties were suspended.


In 1977 General Zia-ul-Haq dissolved parliament and abrogated the constitution, which had been unanimously approved by all political parties in 1973. Begum Nusrat Bhutto of the Pakistan Peoples Party, which had been in power, again went to the court for relief. Perhaps she should have known better. The chief justice toddled off to a briefing at headquarters before announcing the court's judgment in favour of, and in front of, General Zia. The decision, needless to say, was again based on the doctrine of necessity.

The military then enjoyed another 11 years of power uninterrupted by the courts. In 1979 it also used the Supreme Court to execute the former prime minister,
Zulfikar Ali Bhutto. The chief justice was again seen hanging around General Headquarters beforehand.

History and the court both repeated themselves in 2000, when Zafar Ali Shah challenged the constitutionality of the October 12 military coup of the year before. At the time that General Musharraf took power he appeared to have strong political backing. Still, when the chief justice was asked about the constitutionality of the coup, he said that any petition coming to the court would be decided on its merits.

One day before the Supreme Court was due to make its decision, off he went to headquarters for a briefing. (This is the same guy who goaded bemused fellow judges with their blank slips of paper on January 20 to "hurry up, take the oath [because] we have to save the country".) The following day the full bench judgment not only upheld the coup but went so far as to give General Musharraf unlimited power to amend the constitution as he pleased. Yes, you guessed it: the doctrine of necessity was pulled out and shook around one more time. Some in Pakistan's legal circles claim that this decision was literally written outside the court and handed to the judges to pronounce without even having had time to read it properly.

Pakistan's poodle judiciary has been taught and learnt its lessons well. On but a few occasions in the last half-century has the Supreme Court declined to use the doctrine of necessity, and even then the attendant circumstances have meant that its actions were meaningless. After General Ayub Khan was forced out of power by a mass movement in
March 1969 he handed over the reins to the Army Chief of Staff, General Yahya Khan. A petition was filed against the transfer of power.

Two and a half years later, after the general had already been removed from power, the Supreme Court was so brave as to declare him a "usurper" rather than invoke its favorite doctrine. Then in 1993, after the president sacked the government, the court for once decided against the takeover. However, after the decision, the army chief intervened: the prime minister "resigned" and new elections were announced. The chief justice lost his job.

Since Chief Justice Munir sacrificed constitutional law for expediency, the judiciary of Pakistan has been forced into a role not as the arbiter of justice but as the defender of the armed forces. However illegal or unconstitutional its actions may be, under the doctrine of necessity the army can do no wrong. The doctrine can at any time be used to throw out an elected government and keep the constitution in abeyance.

Under these circumstances, the people of Pakistan can only ask, what is the point of an election or a constitution at all?

By subordinating itself to the military, Pakistan's judiciary long since passed over the threshold of reality and into a fantasy land. It is a land in which you can read other people's judgments as if they are your own. It is a land in which you can swear on a spotless piece of paper. It is a land in which you must wear a blank expression and carry around an empty mind. It is a land in which the law exists in a vacuum.

Perhaps we should feel sorry for Pakistan's judges for having lost their dignity to the country's generals. Perhaps they only have themselves to blame. The problem is that because of their failings, because of their misinterpretations, and because of their stupid doctrine, millions of others have lost far more: their lives, their homes, their hopes, their democracy, their human rights, their country. And it is for this that Pakistan's poodle judiciary must ultimately be held responsible.

Baseer Naveed is Senior Researcher for South Asia at Asian Human Rights Commission, Hong Kong

#101, of course you are going to evade, because you don't have a damn clue about what you sloganeer, not a clue. Just like your masters use the "democracy" slogan, you are using the "constitution" slogan to rally around the group your masters want as a stop gap arrangement. Go to hell fool, you think I am interested in discussing things with you? After over a year of discussions, I know how that sick mind of yours works. No need for any further discussions, but I will keep busting your posts so that the others on here can see through your hypocritical, US worshipping veil of contrived sincerity. Now run along...

-------

masadi: after piling this board with one abusive post addressed to me after another, making accusing me of everything you can think of including calling me an "enemy of humanity", you turn around and ask Please explain to us what "Constitutional issues" you are talking about and how you would like them resolved. ? as if all your earlier posts were for nothing!!

I am sorry. I cant stop you from abusing me, but I can refuse to engage in discussion with you. Have a nice day.

Tahmed writes "Why do you think I should commit to voting for one party or another at this stage in Pakistan when it is not even clear how each party will behave in the critical months ahead with respect to the constitutional issues facing Pakistan?"

More lies and banal slogans. Please explain to us what "Constitutional issues" you are talking about and how you would like them resolved. Just sloganeering about the constitution wont do

zeemax: and btw, you seem to have decided to vote for some party. Let me ask you: Which party is it, and why are you so confident as to commit to voting for it at this early stage?

GT "But there must be something very good in him ... otherwise, he would just have been ignored."

Illogical reasoning at its best.

The guy, tahmed is an enemy of humanity, he supports, without condition the US elite in any and every war they start, in any and every policy they adopt. When the Lebanese are being butchered aimlessly by Israel he supports it, when Iraq is being destroyed by the Americans, he supported it, he excuses US subversion of democracy in Pakistan and then sloganeers about democracy....This guy tempts me to abandon all civilty and.... nevermind.

#95 tahmed, don't try to cover up the fact that you were talking nonsense about the role of the military, in fact you were supporting things that inevitably lead to military dictatorship of the Pakistan or the Turkey variety. Get an education, maybe then you can read through the entire post.

zeemax: I realize you find it impossible to believe that one can believe in democracy, and yet remain independant of any party affiliation. Rest assured there is no shortage of such people. Why do you think I should commit to voting for one party or another at this stage in Pakistan when it is not even clear how each party will behave in the critical months ahead with respect to the constitutional issues facing Pakistan?

GT #94 Greetings. And thanks for the vote of confidence. :-)

masadi #92 I told you to stick to one post, so I will ignore the rest as before and respond to this one.
You start by calling me a " miserable fcuk". Very good. I dont need to read the rest.

Now go back and write 5 more posts. echoboom will no doubt be very pleased and write another lengthy, abusive post. You can then both pat each other on the back.

#92 Posted by masadi:


"..whether its democracy, you loll out your tongue in jubilation and whether its dictatorship you still loll out your tongue in jubilation, not knowing what will benefit and what will harm and ignorning all facts of the reality.."

I know a fair number of chowk interactors who fit the above description. So why are you singling out tahmed sahib?

I am simply amazed ... everyone seems to be against tahmed ... Indians, Pakistanis, ... Liberaloon, Funduloon!

But there must be something very good in him ... otherwise, he would just have been ignored.

Anyway, tahmed sahib ... I am with you (if it counts at all). You are a good man.

Masadi:88
WELL the biggest jootaa (Chhitar size 20) on his face was from alephnull, which this pea-brain could not even understand..( see his howlingly clownish reply at 66).

Alephnull's post# 65 Joota is here again for this slave to savour:
===========================================================
Alephnull: 65

tahmed32 #18
{{And the army's job is to protect the Constitution, and make sure that elected rulers dont then try to overstay their term.}}

and #59

{{What I stated as being the proper role of the armed forces (i.e. to defend the Constitution, not overthrow it) is in fact part of the generally accepted role of the armed forces in any country!!}}

Amen to that pair of posts, Janaab Tahmed! Thank you for that stunning exhibition of the military (OK, military-descended) mind in action! What a crying shame that some bloody civilians just won’t get the point :-(.
============================================================
and then , as in this joke, the baighairat asks the one who uses the jootaa on him :" Darling, when will you be back?"[ reply:#66]
============================================================
AlephN ull:65
If you, or anyone else, have heard this joke before then you might enjoy this a bit more "in-context"

This thief who in the dead of night had broken into this house
was busy picking up his loot when he tripped and was caught by the man sleeping there.

Once caught, the thief pleaded for mercy..he would be let go if he (the thief) would do a lube job on the owner.

Well, as you can imagine , the thief did find it a bit disgusting but still not too
harsh a punishment..especially when he was also allowed to take the loot.

Once the thief was done with the reaming ,as if dreaming , the man from under him, very coquettishly inquired : " Darling! when will you be back again".
____________________________________________________________
Can you, or others, spot some context here?

tahmed writes "That says plenty about you, and nothing about me"

Yes it says a lot about echo, it says that he understands that you are a miserable fcuk who calls for the death and destruction of Muslims and poor folk around the globe while sloganeering about democracy and human rights and trying to legitimize the higher barbarism of the US elite. IT says a lot about echo, as a defender of the oppressed against the tyranny of hypocrites and sell outs like you who support not only this new colonization but the old barbaric colonization of the past. Your kind are the worst among humanity. Your kind will get what is coming to them soon enough...

#88 Posted by masadi,

With all due respect to tahmed32 sahib, he still needs to answer my question that while enthusiastically supporting the democracy movement in Pakistan, which political party will he vote for once his wishes come true?

In #89 read "There, three more posts, and I sure and hell know what I'm talking about " as

There, three more posts, and I sure as hell know what I'm talking about

--- Four posts..

Tahmed Regarding the example, whether its democracy, you loll out your tongue in jubilation and whether its dictatorship you still loll out your tongue in jubilation, not knowing what will benefit and what will harm and ignorning all facts of the reality, you cling to your desire to worship the US elite, you remain a miserable dog...There, three more posts, and I sure and hell know what I'm talking about

Regarding the 5 posts they did not deal with the same issue, the couple or so that did were meant not for my understanding of the issue but for enhancing my case, and so that dumb fcuks like you don't get away with slogans of democracy garbed up with legitimation for military dictatorship

Now that tahmed has been stumped, clamoring for democracy while leaving an avenue open for the military to meddle in political affairs, just like the Turkish military and its constitution mongering in order to intefere in the political, he denies that he ever said it.

This is what the lying bas**** had said on this very thread, tahmed: "And the army's job is to protect the Constitution, and make sure that elected rulers dont then try to overstay their term..."

The army has no business meddling in any affairs of the state, its job has nothing to do with the constitution, its interpretation or punishing the violaters of it, its job is to stay in the barracks, leave internal law enforcement to the police, and in the US be subservient to the commander in cheif and have no say on his term in office, while defending the country from external aggression PERIOD.

echboom: Writing anonymous abuses on chowk makes you feel good about yourself? And you need moral support from everyone in writing these abuses?

That says plenty about you, and nothing about me.

http://www.chowk.com/ interacts/9503/1/0/16#228036

Sattar, mazadi, zeemax & EVERYBODY:

This is the article when this miserable specimen called tsmithers32 licked his master's ass & felt proud that his Master dropped not one but two atomic bombs in the center of the most populated cities of Japan..

This arsehole is not with MUSLIMS..he is with the enemy!
Hope whenevr he rears his ugly head here he gets his snout rubbed & rubbed & rubbed till he forgets how to wag his tail & wiggle his behing whenever he smells his masters coming.

Just to reming everyone this baighairat got a thrashing from everyone then as well..hindus, muslims alike...Only the Ba Ba i Kanjaroon, now missing in action, the other enemy-lover tolerated this germ.

http://www.chowk.com/inte racts/9503/1/0/16#228036

masadi: and write only one post in response to #81, not 5 posts as you have been doing. If you know what you are talking about, you should not need more than one post to respond to what I write.

With no further comments ... no anologies ... I hasten to add ....!

masadi: I insist that between the two of us you are the bigger genius when you wrote The Army's job is to stay in the barracks and defend the country's borders from external aggression, period. .

I see you have quietly dropped this when presented with evidence to the contrary. That is progress I suppose.

Having dropped your absurd claim, you assign the following task to me Please find me ONE authoritative source from contemporary history and that is a challenge where the role of the US military is defined as detecting violations of the constitution by politicians and then mobilizing for action, I ask for JUST ONE.

The above assumes that I said the military can take a form of suo moto action to "detect violations" of the constitution. I never said that or implied that. So stick to what I wrote. There are no doubt valid issues of how and when the military (as per your above quote) can serve to protect the Constitution in Pakistan - but dont assume I have a view on that unless I express that.

Having made that clear (I hope), let me say that with respect to your example of a politican stepping over his constitutional authority, there are plenty of checks and balances available to Pakistan (as exemplified by the Supreme Court) that, if the Constitution was respected by the generals, would come into play to take care of the example you mention. Martial Law would in practice never take place if the generals felt bound to protect the Constitution.

7:176 If it had been Our will, We should have elevated him with Our signs; but he inclined to the earth, and followed his own vain desires. His similitude is that of a dog: if you attack him, he lolls out his tongue, or if you leave him alone, he (still) lolls out his tongue. That is the similitude of those who reject Our signs; So relate the story; perchance they may reflect.

(Quran 7:175-176)

In #76, about tahmed "Pathetic cowards and worshippers of the West like you, are what the Quran describes as "dogs"- Zeemax will add the rest of the discription given in the analogy presented in that Quranic verse..."