Moral Bankruptcy of Political Leadership in Pakistan

Link

There is a saying; smile and the whole world smiles, cry and you are all alone. Similarly people forget the good things that Musharraf has done for the country and remember the bad things. People make mistakes all the time, so what if Musharraf slipped a few times.
Here is an excerpt from the above mentioned article.

"Pakistan's economy has grown rapidly, expanding at an average rate of 7% over the past five years. An ambitious privatization program, fueled by gulf-country investments and led by Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz, a former Citibank banker, is widely regarded as the reason for that growth. Total direct investment reached $6 billion in the past fiscal year, up from $4.5 billion in the 2006 fiscal year. The U.S. has also funneled billions of dollars in military and economic assistance to the country since the Sept. 11 attacks.

But those benefits haven't reached the majority of Pakistanis and inflation remains high at 7.7%. Political instability also threatens economic gains. Standard and Poor's recently lowered its outlook on Pakistan's credit rating."

banneditem: The fact that the economy grew 7% is not a sufficient condition for a man to demand another extension to his unelected stay in power. This would be true even if Musharraf had been a model ruler which - after his shenanigans over the years (the latest being his shenanigans on May 12 and his permitting lal masjid maulvis to intimidate Islamabad residents month after month) - is hardly the case.

Pakistanis have a right to elect their leaders and to replace them if they wish after they have served their term.

#2 Posted by tahmed32,

You're off-track. Post 9/11, approx $ 65 billion has flown into Pakistan through aid, logistical support from US, fiscal space through re-scheduling, privatisations, debt-issues, plus all trade sanctions removed.

Compare that with how the country survived in the 90s and your eyes will pop, when it was sanctioned to the hilt and with $ 500 million to manage everything with. Still it managed a growth of around 4-5% or so ...

You give me $ 65 billion to spend, and I'll show you what Pakistan can become.

... I missed reverse-capital flight in the inflows.

tahmed writes "Pakistanis have a right to elect their leaders and to replace them if they wish after they have served their term"

A supporter of colonization (tahmed) clamoring against dictatorship and for democracy and the "Pakistanis". What a damn hypocrite this person is: tell this voting stuff to the Americans you miserable fcuk, who have prevented any viable political institutions from developing in this country through their occupation force, aka the Pakistan Army, they have wheeled and dealed with all dictators in Pakistan, used them for ulterior motive, fcuked up Pakistan, and then dumped them when need be using just such moralizing as you are doing. You need to be dragged through the streets of Pakistan by its people, that will be of greater benefit to this country than any "voting" at this stage

zeemax: I started where that track ends - Even if Musharraf can be credited for the 7% growth rate, he still does not have a right to demand that he take away the rights of the Pakistani people. That is what I was saying.

Tahmed Sahab,

Problem with u liberals is that just like the mullah ur outrage is selective. When state 'establishes its writ' on asma jehnagir u r all up in arms and let me say that justifiably so, but when the same state unleashes all its might on innocent unarmed children to capture 50 terrorist they end up killing hundreds of innocent kids..but thats OK because those kids originated from mothers that are not cool enuff to show there armpits n cleevages. For the love of GOD grow a heart

masadi: The fact that I think you are a nut when you think that the "US elite" is behind every problem on earth does not make me a supporter of colonization.

If Pakistani dictators had any character, they would have respected the constitution, and the US (as well as the rest of the world) would in that case be dealing with an elected leader.

Both these concepts may represent out-of-the-box thinking for someone like you who is obsessed with blaming the US for everything.

I think if Bezamir is "elected" by NaPak fouj as a PM and imposed on Pakistan as the custodian of American interests upon people of Pakistan, the people of Pakistan will not take it lying down this time. Clearly the result would be no different than the Shia Sunni divide in Iraq and the resultant civil war. Clearly NaPak fouj will keep doing the dirty work for americans by killing innocent citizens of Pakistan under Bezamir but due to the reaction of the militant freedom fighters the PPP supporters and Liberal Fascists will have to organize themselves into militias and death squads. So the question is will they have testicular fortutude to face an enemy which has made the monkeys out of Napak fouj and the whole western army combined??

abu_safwan: I think Musharraf badly mishandled lal masjid (per my post below) and that hardly implies that I am condoing the deaths of anyone (let alone children) in lal masjid. If Musharraf had done his job as chief executive, he would have never permitted the maulvis to take the law in their own hands to begin with. He would never have permitted a place of worship used as an arsenal.

And please dont moralize to me by saying "have a heart".

btw, I am not sure what you mean by "liberal". Could you please define it so I can see if I fit the category or not. Thanks.

It reminds me of an election year slogans in one of the elections in 1990s. It goes something like this:

Bezamir, O' bezamir
Bund vich lay apna teer
assi naiN ban-na tera veer
Bezamir, O' Bezamir.

Teer or arrow was the election symbol for bezamir in that year.

Urstruly: you can dream on when you think you represent the people of Pakistan in your views. The reaction - or lack thereof - to the seizure of lal masjid should be the writing on the wall for you. But dont let reality come in the way of your dreams of turning Pakistan into a kingship ruled by your arab gods.

tahmed : if u condone the death of ALL innocent regardless of there dress code and not justify the killings as a necessary measure to establish the writ than u aint a liberal in the paki sense

tahmed32, In order for pakistanis to have rights they really need to clean their consitution first and treat everyone as a citizen not 1st class 2nd class(ahmadi etc)...
Lets see the same compassion that Aithsaz Hussien displayed with CJ and have him tackle that. Then we can talk about removing ppl and electing ppl. Just because 2% of the pakistani community(lawyers) stood up against the military doesnt mean that the rest of the majority can pick a right leader. In Swat mullahs won simply because of their electoral symbol (the book...quran) and the saying that anyone that doesnt vote for the book is not a muslim. Is that how people decide to pick their leaders and is that the right approach to democracy, this BTW is similar to "roti, kapara, aur makan" not so long ago in times of ZA bhutto. Nawaz shariff used yellow cab scheme to garner support. This gives you an glimpse of what an average pakistani is made of and how easily he can be bought (regardless of how fevereshly fanatically inclined he may be). Flash them(pakis) a greenback and they will have a horse that can deal cards in a casino.

#13 abu_safwan. I assume you mean "dont condone". I dont think anyone in his right mind in Pakistan (or anywhere else) would condone the killing of innocents. And indeed, as any lawyer would agree, everyone is innocent unless proven guilty.

So, it seems to me using the term "liberal" a bit incorrectly - "murderous pschopath" would be a more appropriate term. And I dont think we have any of those on chowk - however much we may disagree with one another or get carried away in our arguments.

Urstruly:

Can you imagine this kanjrRee was making fun of her dupatta which she conveniently let slip & all the time rearranged it on her head quipping, to the delightful squeals of the American audience, "this somehow refuses to stay in its place".

This is the KanjarRee also, when she was the PM that her best friend, grand-daugter of Mazhar Ail/Shaukat Hayat of Shaukat Hayat Khan and perhaps also of the commie ( humanist?) Tariq Ali was RAPED by the then President Ishaaque Khan's son-in-Law..Marvat something...and this the PM was silent while crowing all the time about "rights" & "wrongs" of women.

I have alsoheard from those who saw that she was slapped in the VIP lounge by Zardaari many a times..and she was happy as long as the drool from her arse originated from Mr. Baskin Robbins.

and who does not know what she did to her mother & brother...

and now the new sanpolia, Bilawal, is being readied to serve as the new generation of KanjarRs to continue to rape MUSLIMS in Pakistan.

Abbay banditem..go give your citizens right to hear worship of brahmans and while u r at it lift the ridculous ban on beef in mumbai...common sense and rhetoric of fairness in other countries oozing from indians is an oxy-moron..u moron

banneditem: I think you have an unduly low opinion of Pakistanis, and I also think you dont get the point I have been trying to make on chowk. If Indians are good enough to elect their leaders, what makes Pakistanis not good enough? If americans can bring a disaster like Bush to be President for a second term, why cant Pakistanis have the right to make similar mistakes once in a while.

The important thing is not who gets elected, but the system. If Swatis wish to elect someone who flashes the Quran - that is their right. All I am saying is that if after 4 years the Swatis decide the man who flashed the Quran has proved useless, then they should also have the right to replace him with someone else.

That is what the democratic system and the rule of law is all about. And it works better than any other system. And the army's job is to protect the Constitution, and make sure that elected rulers dont then try to overstay their term.

tahmed Sahib, aa'dab aarz.

... don't mean to put too fine a point in this debate about definition of liberal, but if I recall correctly, you were fully supportive of US atomic bombs on Japan - both times. Ahem.

Re#18
hard to argue with that

Sattar bhai..kaysay mizaaj hein..kahan hottay hein yaarr..naraz to naheen hein naa khuda na khoasta?

#18 Posted by tahmed32,

tahmed32, it pains me to see that you really don't know Pakistan. GT was right on the other board (or was it this board?) that Not ask what your country will do for you is BULL! You mention Swat, what do you know about Gilgit Sir? There's a huge movement going on there ... and the Northern areas feel Pakistan has given them ZILCH! They don't even feel to be part of Pakistan.

#19 sattar: Nice try - but sorry, no discussions with you.

You can of course keep trying to portray me as someone who does not mean what he writes - but rest assured that I mean it when I say "To you be your way, and to me be mine". All you have been interested in on chowk the past 7 years is pushing your paighamber. When you spend another 7 years showing an interest in anything else in Pakistan, then we can talk. Till then - I wish you a good day.

zeemax #22 I am not sure how this relates to the discussion below. Please let me know what I missed.

#24 Posted by tahmed32,

It was this para:

If Swatis wish to elect someone who flashes the Quran - that is their right. All I am saying is that if after 4 years the Swatis decide the man who flashed the Quran has proved useless, then they should also have the right to replace him with someone else.

They have found they have nowhere else to turn to. Certainly not the State of Pakistan. They have turned away from your 'democracy'.

tahmed,

You are missing the point: this has not about ideology, but about seeming switch in your views.

On one hand you claim to be a humanist, but then you support bombing into annihilation tens (hundreds?) of thousands of Japanese civilians. You may hide behind “no talking to sattar” excuse … which is somewhat childish … and that’s really up to you.

Abu Sahib, doing well, thank you …

... a warlord runs Swat now ... Maulana Fazlullah. This is what you have brought this country to.

ppp is actually a bigger dictatorship, internally, than even the army.......all ppp members and sh#t scared of benazir....i have seen them act like that in person......she rules over them like a queen...she, solely, decides who gets a party ticket, and who doesn't......she decides, solely, the complete party policy.......

......it is a one man show......or one woman show......

.......when she is not around, she appoints nincampoops like the current sindhi feudal as the head of the party, evern though far more capable individuals like aitezaz ahsan are available.....the reason being she fears the later will gain influence.......

........ppp is really the only true anti-establishment party in pakistan.....it is, infact, the only true national party in pakistan.......its leaders have gone to jail etc. on multiple occassions, yet stick with the party....it has a very loyal voter base, which is very anti-army.....

.......it is truly going to see what its leaders and votebase will do, if bb makes a deal with musharraf......to give an example, its most senior leader in punjab, gilani spent four years in jail, without being convicted, because he would not join musharraf's govt.......another major sindhi leader and its finance minsiter, naveed qamar, spent over two years in jail, for same reasons and was then declared innocent......aitezaz ahsan led the fight against musharraf in the cj case......

i wonder what these guys will do, if bb makes a deal.....they must be extremely angry.......

Re: # 18 and the one by abu-safwan

Dear Sirs,
I asked my "naukars son" whom we educated all the way to university a simple question.
Q: What would you do if you were elected as a President/PM of Pakistan?
A: I will ask your grandfather on what to do.

I then repeated the question his repsonse
A: Sir Ji, meh achi jee khoti banasaan ( I will build a house).

With democracy comes responsibility. And please dont compare US political system with Pakistan. US still has to elect some green peace weirdo, but they havent, Bush got re-elected because of one state Ohio. Similarly India has mature insitutions. While Pakistanis can acheive that status it iwill take some time. All I am saying is let Musharraf do it, he is a good guy and means well. Just because he is a bit heavy handed doesnt mean to chop his hands off, he got the slap all will be well.
Just like in Pakistan when there is a roadside minor accident and people start hitting the bad guy, someone from the crowd comes to the rescue saying
"choR do ji, rayn diyo, bichara ghareeb admi hi, maaf kar dau"

Raza Rabbani is now on record and several others have said off the record that they will leave PPP ..if there is a deal w/ the dictator. Kudos to them for having a spine

There are only two people of any real worth in PPP. One is of-course Aitazaz Ahsan, the other is Jahangir Badar. Aitazaz may leave, but Jahangir Badar won't. He's totally loyal to ZAB.

glossary:

Submissive
* Ears: Back or flat against the head
* Eyes: Avoids direct eye contact
* Body: Lowered, groveling or rolling, exposing genitals
* Mouth: Corner pulled back, submissive grin
* Tail: Tucked between legs or flat against abdomen
* Behavior: Licks lips or nose, may urinate

Maybe the poor guy has taken an oath of secrecy with that sinister & diabolical ancient secret society to never bite the hand that feeds him.

But he holds the record to be His Master's Voice even off the gramaphone.

32: was about #19:by Sattar

& this is what the Cantonment Kutta does when he is asked to explain his support for Hiroshima & Nagasaki
____________________________________________________
Haaa Haaa Haaa


Submissive

* Ears: Back or flat against the head
* Eyes: Avoids direct eye contact
* Body: Lowered, groveling or rolling, exposing genitals
* Mouth: Corner pulled back, submissive grin
* Tail: Tucked between legs or flat against abdomen
* Behavior: Licks lips or nose, may urinate

Zee Bhai,

Being loyal to ZAB is one thing and keep endorsing bibi's stupidities is quite another. If he has this urge to support a bhutto rather than the ideology itself than maybe fatima bhutto is a better option..wat do u think?

#14 Posted by banneditem:

"In Swat mullahs won simply because of their electoral symbol (the book...quran) and the saying that anyone that doesnt vote for the book is not a muslim. Is that how people decide to pick their leaders and is that the right approach to democracy,"

THE ANSWER IS AN EMPHATIC YES. If you can't accept it then democracy is not for you ... or maybe you could redifine democracy a la Bush and Blair.

In India we have the barbaric Modi ... lot of us do not like it ... but that is what we have to live with ... not accept but fight ... that is democracy. The 'people' will pull you down to the lowest common denominator ... but that is how it is. And when the common man overcomes ... the Modis are swept away ... if not, then tough luck.

tahmed sahib:

Had I read your reply to #14, I would not have posted #35. Well said sir.

Urstruly sahib:

Where is brother hamidm2 these days?

tahmed writes "masadi: The fact that I think you are a nut when you think that the "US elite" is behind every problem on earth does not make me a supporter of colonization"

You miserable fool don't try to pervert what I write. The US elite have put in place a neo-colonial structure that has prevented countries coming out of the old colonialism from developing. Only a damn fool or an agenda driven pervert like you would try to understand this world independant of the US when it dominates all international institutions, and has a chokehold on the global economic system....

Regarding your support of coloniazation. You wrote a whole article before the current Iraq war in support of it and laid out many couplets of your hamd o naat for the "Anglo Saxon Ethos" and how privilaged those colonized by them were. Now, like the misrable fcuk that you are, you are trying to cover that up with lies...

In #37 read "and has a chokehold on the global economic system.... "

as "and has a chokehold on the global economic system.... which it guards through force of arms with a plethora of hundreds of military bases around the globe and threats of war, not to mention its long history of barbaric military adventures in other countries. Only the sickest of perverts will say that all that is or was benign...

tahmed writes "If Pakistani dictators had any character, they would have respected the constitution, and the US (as well as the rest of the world) would in that case be dealing with an elected leader. "

Who are you trying to fool? The US would deal with "elected leaders" just like it dealt with Mossadeq? Or Chavez? That dictators come to power in Pakistan is because of the army, and that army, its leadership, is firmly in the pockets of the US elite, regardless of the general in command. Respecting the constitution? Ha ha, let us start with how much respect for the US constitution the US elite have displayed....

From Reuters August 1, 2007

He said the Bush administration would still send troops into Iraq if it could do it all over again, even knowing what it knows now, including that more than 3,000 U.S. military personnel would be killed.

"I firmly believe," Cheney said, "that the decisions we've made with respect to Iraq and Afghanistan have been absolutely the sound ones in terms of the overall strategy."
---------------------

Now tell me how much "character" is revealed by a person who is excusing the butchering of almost a million people, and the destruction of an entire country in terms of not that country but "overall strategy"? Not only that he says that even knowing this carnage they would do it all over again.

What does he mean by overall strategy, if American actions and inactions have nothing to do with the world, pray tell me tahmed?

Here is what he means by "overall strategy", he has firmly affixed his signature to the document...

tahmed writes "And the army's job is to protect the Constitution, and make sure that elected rulers dont then try to overstay their term."

See, this person supports dictatorship but only when the dictators do the bidding of the US. Only in stop gap arrangements preferred by the US, whom this miserable fcuk worships, is that the Army's job. It is not the army's job to have anything to do with a country's political institution. The Army's job is to stay in the barracks and defend the country's borders from external aggression, period. Nothing else.

Ideally speaking, Pakistan needs political process without military intervention or involvement, but is that possible given our history, Milbus Inc and external situation? We can blame BB for her inadequate political vision or moral bankruptcy, but that does not alter the fact that PPP is the only true national party in Pakistan that derives support from the ppl and not the masjid.

GT "Where is brother hamidm2 these days? "

Let me answer, like I said earlier, he has discovered ALLAH, repented of his dimwitted nonsense, and now spends his days in peaceful contemplation, and charity...

this lady..is one of the most wicked..makkar..chalak..ayyar...fitnai baaz...Phappai kutni....mohallai mai larai karwanai wali massi type thing....

Fisrt she captured Nawaz Sharif in so called Meesaqa_i_Jamhooriat...broke it..then shatterd APC of London...by plaing double way..and atlast today...met with Dictator...in Abu Dhabi...for deal...

Now..at this time...about 9 Pm in Pakistan..2nd session of talk of Benazir with Dictator is going on....


is nai pani phair diya Ch Ietezaz Ehsan of PPPP kee naqabalai farmosh jidojahid par..jo us nai kee..against the dictorship for 4 months....He won one the greatest case of pakistan history...and defeated the whole government in legal case...media...political front..even in drivery for 26 long hours from islambad to Lahore... ...he smacked down the whole government...and blasted the whole "Dhanda" of reference which the government started against the CJ of pakistan...and all others PPPP workers which were against any deal...


LANAT on her...mega Lanat ..on her again...

Look at the most wicked an corrupt lady of pakistan...for swiss cases ...deletion..she is going to to any extent with a Dictator....


Look at the baighairat general...who said that ..i will never deal with such corrupt leader..now in the feet of BB to have some pie fro her to save his trembling and shvering presidency....


Lanat on both....how they forgot the 160 milion people ..the local leaders of PPPP in Pakistan...the whole political scenario...


lanat on both...one want his next 5 years...with uniform.....and other want his cases to be deleted....


Oh Allah Almighty...you have saved our nation ..on 4 :17 pm of 20 july,2007..when the voice coming from the SC ....shatterted the pillar of dictatorship.....


O God..we are in danger again...the power hungry are flying above us...Oh Allah...show your power ..might and strenght agin..as you once showed ....in last 4 months..when millions of pakistanis come like mad on the street for a judge..a miracle first ever happened in the human history.....


O Allah....the vultures are about to eat us..and we are helpless...our eyes are on you...and our tongues are just asking you...show your power...and destroy everyone who is against this country...destroy every power seeker.....destroy every hungry..greedy...and wicked ...make them Nishan-e-Ibrat..to us....


and show your might as you once showed in last 4 months

His honurable ..Justice Rana Bhagwandas today..ordered to listen the petition of Qazi Hussain Ahmed (MMA) over the Dictator uniform issue...when Qazi challenged the uniform issue ...in SC of Pakistan....

This is the real test case of SC....hope to get good news ..on this case also...by kicking out this Dictaor from the Army uniform....

The Shahzada of Rawalpindi and Lota-e-Azam...Shiekh Raseed (whose Urdu is excellent)constantly saying today...that Dictator will re-elect from same assemblies for 5 more years...with uniform....

while PML(Q) second president ..Kabeer Wasti...Mushaid Hussain( PML GS)...and other top leaders of PML(Q) are saying that..he should leave the uniform..and re-elect from next assemblies....


but lotai..chamchai..and pitthoo...tody..are saying ...that ..for thier seats..as Zill-e-Subhani become extremely happy on these lotas remarks like Sh.Rasheed...

he not know...how this thig create huge protests against the Dictaor in Pakistan..and how this thing is dangerous

Munir A Malik ...the president of pakistan Supreme court Bar Council..and Bukhari..the GS of Bar Council..said today that..they will cut that hand of all opposition leaders.....who will try to deal with a Dictator..at these crucial moments...when the dictator ship..is just about to sink...They not named that opposition leader...but clearly..they were pointing towards..Bainazir...

The lawyers ..have declared..a wide range moment against the army uniform of a Dictator..and relection from the same assembly.....

Ch ietzaaz ahsan..which has won the greats battle of 60 years..will not move with PPPP...if Benair will make a deal with a Dictator....Raza Rabbani(PPPP Senate oppostion Leader)...Makdoom Ameen Faheem..and Ghulam Mustafa Khar...and Jahangir Badar...also get annoyed over the deal with a Dictator.....

The PPPP...is in very difficult situation....if it deals..part workers and leaders run..if not..then corruption cases cannot be deleted....

bari mushkil mai par gai hai BB.....

The breaking news is that ..Government has opened 50% accounts of Bainazir..which were closed in looting and corruption cases before...

Governor Punjab..also confirmend the deal and meeting of dictator with BB.....

lagta hai...daal mai kuch kala hai.....

aur andar hee andar koi khicree pak rahee hai....

lagta hai..deal final ho gai hai.....

A man of unbeatable repute and respect..his honurable/...the retired judge of SC ...who resigned on taking oath on PCO by General Zia-ul-Haq...justice(R) Fakhruddin J Ibrahim..is going to file a petition in SC of pakistan..for Nawaz Sharif and Shahbaz Sharif..for thier return in Pakistan..as citizens..of pakistan..its thier right to come Pakistan at any time..

though thier exile treaty was a political death...but now..i think..he is the only man popular in 4 provinces..and can dare to fight with US ...and neglect all its pressure with boldness..as he once showed on 5 atomic explosions ..by refusing 5 phone calls of US president....

today..Nawa-i-Waqt said...Musharraf ..asked King Abdullah to stop Nawaz ..coming back...to pakistan..but they refused that..if SC will favour the Nawaz Sharif..they will obey the orders of SC....

hope to see him ..back Pakistan..soon..inshallah...as SC ..i hope..cannot stop any ctizen of pakistan's basic right to come into Pakistan....it is his basic right....

Interesting! Alquaeda, Taliban, Pakistan Taliban and other Islamist and their arch enemy the US, have joined together to demand Musharaf's removal.

Baldta hai rang aassman kaisay kaisay.

Isn't always interesting that Ialmist, Alquaeda, Taliban and the US agree with each all the time and then they all blame liberals for for not doing enough to reduce their differences..

HP "Isn't always interesting that Ialmist, Alquaeda, Taliban and the US agree with each all the time "

Like peas in a pod = )

#34 Posted by abu_safwaan,

Abu_S, Fatima Bhutto is an unknown commodity so far. Only time will tell how she fares in Politics but she doesn't appear to be anywhere near as outstanding as even Benazir at her age. I personally think that no descendant of ZAB shares his commitments, and Bhutto family should step aside and place PPP in elected leaders' hands to save it from disgrace.

As for Jahangir Badar, he is personally loyal to ZAB and likely to stick with anyone from ZAB's immediate family - right or wrong.

#50 Posted by dawa-i-dil,

hope to see him ..back Pakistan ..soon.. inshallah ... as SC ..i hope..cannot stop any ctizen of pakistan's basic right to come into Pakistan....it is his basic right....

You know, when these idiots trample the constitution, they believe they can do anything they want for as long as they want.

Even if any deal was signed between NS family and Musharraf with King Abdullah as guarantor (as is claimed), it is Ultra vires being in contravention of the basic rights guaranteed in the constitution. SC will strike down any such deal.

So prepare the welcoming party. Sharif brothers are the only ones capable of achieving a national consensus, as you rightly pointed out.

zeemax #: " personally think that no descendant of ZAB shares his commitments, and Bhutto family should step aside and place PPP in elected leaders' hands to save it from disgrace.......As for Jahangir Badar, he is personally loyal to ZAB and likely to stick with anyone from ZAB's immediate family - right or wrong."

...i actually had a chance to, personally, meet some of the ppp and pml leaders, and have long talks with them, for a book i was assisting with.......

i agree with you that the best thing that could happen to ppp is for bhutto family to step aside....in fact that is the best thing that could happen to pakistani politics.....it may result in a revival of pakistani politics, as a whole.......all said and done, ppp is really the only national solid political party in pakistan......however, bb and zardari's own corruption and its feudal-centric leadership is going to destroy it......

......a ppp led by aitezaz ahsan or some of its other leaders, will pummel everyone in the coming elections......a ppp led by bb and zardari is well on its way to an ultimate decline........

jehangir badr's status in ppp is no longer so prominent, as he cannot win an election from his area, where sharif brothers now dominate.....he is a direct competitor to shahbaz and nawaz sharif's constituencies in lahore, and cannot defeat them.......the only ppp leader, who can win comfortably in lahore, is aitezaz ahsan.......

ppp has some good people in it......unfortunately, benazir will only allow the bozos like amin fahim to come to the top, when she is absent.......

Just Curious...

Where is Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto ( Junior )...??

the son of I presume Murtaza Bhutto.
he Must be of age by Now...!!

Ahmer,

You have hit the nail on the head. By definition no political party can have an ideology in pakistan. The touch stone is simple, is there a communist party in pakistan.

It is an islamic republic that did not have any independence heroes.

Nothing can be done about pakistan now, it will become a jihadic failed state.

Bhuttos return,

This is probably the right time for benazir to come back to pakistan and take on the reigns.

It was her father who declared that pakistan will have the bomb and they will eat grass. Both have been achieved, and like a true daughter, she should rule from now on.

The only real hero of pakistan is Zulfi, he promised and he delivered.

Again it was zulfi who presided over the partition of pakistan, it is he who recognized Bangladesh. It will be another bhuttos turn to deliver POK to india, NWFP to afghanistan, and retire in sindh.

masadi #41 So, you think that " The Army's job is to stay in the barracks and defend the country's borders from external aggression, period. "!! This reveals your ignorance, which no amount of big talk and low insults on your part can cover up.

What I stated as being the proper role of the armed forces (i.e. to defend the Constitution, not overthrow it) is in fact part of the generally accepted role of the armed forces in any country!!

Here, e.g., is the oath taken by anyone joining the US Army:

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic;"

masadi: After responding to your post #41 below, I notice there are two more posts from you commenting on what I wrote. I didnt read them because I am not going to waste more time with you.

GT #36 I see we independently provided the same response to banneditem. Great minds think alike! :-)

banneditem #29 Those, I am sure you will admit upon reflection, are very weak responses you provide when challenged on your contention that Pakistani people are not fit to elect their own rulers. Please re-read my post #18 and GT's post #35, because I think you need to reflect on your way of thinking.

e.g. you are simply incorrect when you say that "Bush did not get re-elected because of one state Ohio". That state would have meant nothing if he did not already enjoy a strong electoral support. And thus what I said remains true - if Americans can make a mistake by electing a disaster like Bush to be President, then Pakistanis can be allowed to make a few mistakes too - if they wish to elect a man who flashes the Quran, that is their right. As long as they can learn the hard way and remove the maulvi from power when his term is up and if they chose to do so.

And please dont think that your naukar's son is genetically inferior (as your post implies) and incapable of reaching your own lofty ideals. Such arrogance merely reflects very superficial thinking.

Breaking News....

justice Ifthikhar said today ..in hearing PML(N) top leader Hashmi..prison petition that...when he has completed his punishment ...government could not put him in jail...so..on friday..his petition will be re listened...

hope ..that ..he will be released soon....

baja dee Ifti nai sub ki....

aur Dictator gannai kai khait mai baitha Chuppa laga raha hai....

Justice Iqbal summoned NAB DG on 3rd August.....

hai..hai...hai...SC nai phar dee sab kee....

tahmed32 #18

{{And the army's job is to protect the Constitution, and make sure that elected rulers dont then try to overstay their term.}}

and #59

{{What I stated as being the proper role of the armed forces (i.e. to defend the Constitution, not overthrow it) is in fact part of the generally accepted role of the armed forces in any country!!}}

Amen to that pair of posts, Janaab Tahmed! Thank you for that stunning exhibition of the military (OK, military-descended) mind in action! What a crying shame that some bloody civilians just won’t get the point :-(.

sattar #26 Where did you read me making claims to be a humanist? I dont deal with labels, and I am not running for popularity contests that I have to prove something to strangers on chowk.

And not willing to accept "to you be your way, and to me be mine" as a way to resolve religious differences, and frustrated in my refusal to engage in further "discussion" in your aggressive attempts to get the world to acknowledge your "prophet" mirza, you now pull Nagasaki and Hiroshima out of thin air and try to force a discussion by misrepresenting what I wrote.

You are over-clever and a half!! However, while lying and deceipt on your part may impress a loser like echoboom, any intelligent individual will see through it. When there is something about Pakistan that you wish to discus other than pushing your prophet mirza (where my answer remains as provided above), and when you have overcome your tendancy to be rude and deceiptful, then perhaps we can talk. Till then - have a nice day.

#65 AlephNull: are you saying I am wrong? or merely letting of some smoke??

AlephNull:65
If you, or anyone else, have heard this joke before then you might enjoy this a bit more "in-context"

This thief who in the dead of night had broken into this house
was busy picking up his loot when he tripped and was caught by the man sleeping there.

Once caught, the thief pleaded for mercy..he would be let go if he (the thief) would do a lube job on the owner.

Well, as you can imagine , the thief did find it a bit disgusting but still not too
harsh a punishment..especially when he was also allowed to take the loot.

Once the thief was done with the reaming ,as if dreaming , the man from under him, very coquettishly inquired : " Darling! when will you be back again".
____________________________________________________________
Can you, or others, spot some context here?

dawa-i-dil,
Where are you getting all this news from?
Please post links. Thanks

tahmed,

You seem to be mischaracterizing the issue here.

But first, don’t get too obsessed with labels. By using the term “humanist”, I was referring to your claims suggesting you value innocent lives. This, as I pointed out, is not accurate. And no, I am not asking you to prove anything to anyone.

+++

Your “humanist” attitude is negated by your support for Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings. If I recall correctly, your position was something along the lines that … since they attacked US, it was ok for US to bomb them.

I drew your attention to the fact that … you were confusing they with them. While they were Japanese military, trained to attack and to win wars, them were Japanese civilians: women, children, elderly, young couples, toddlers. It seemed that you failed to appreciate this distinction. And that was the travesty of your views.

Note that in addition of those instantly killed, hundreds of thousands suffered immeasurably due to trauma, illnesses, starvation, injuries, and much, much more. God only knows how many of their generations will be born with birth defects, physical and mental handicaps, life long illnesses … and much, much more.

+++

I further pointed out that your view has much in common with that of suicide bombers … who, when they cannot fight an army, resort to blowing up innocent civilians. Once again, you did not comment. That was further travesty of your views.

+++

Ironically, you were cheer-leading the US war on Iraq also. You brilliantly predicted the exact days it would take the US to capture Baghdad. You tooted your horn when your prediction was met. And since then, Iraq has descended into a morass, with immeasurable human suffering. But you did not (could not?) predict the aftermath that followed.

Sahib, it is easy to win wars, which is perhaps all that you know. But winning peace is a lot more tricky, and something you know little about. Your short, snappy sentences on "democracy" do not cut it. Human existence is too complicated to be ruled by this “bumper sticker” philosophy of yours.

+++

And you are mistaken if you think I am pushing my belief here. I have mainly (perhaps only) responded to the issue of my faith when the issue was raised by others. People’s inquiries have ranged from genuine questions to belittling ridicule, and I responded accordingly.

Note that you yourself have taken uncalled-for shots at Ahamdis … but are quick to respond with “to you, your way; to me, mine” when I respond to your comments. Here again you display incompetence and an overwhelming sense of self-righteousness. Note that once again you are repeatedly raising the issue of Mirza, while cleverly slipping in your verdict … even as no one has raised the issue. This seems to be an obsession of yours, more than anyone else’s.

Sattar Bhai, I think you got 'em. But you always do run away from proving the validity of your prophet, but like u stated very aptly - is not the topic of this discussion. Good post

#69 Posted by khurram,

She watches the ticker on the news channels ... :)

sattar: I suggest you cut and paste what I wrote. I am not going to enter into a discussion on any issue with you based on what you claim I wrote.

#73 Posted by tahmed32 =,

tahmed32, actually you also condoned the bombing of Lebanese civilians ... :)

tahmed writes "Here, e.g., is the oath taken by anyone joining the US Army:

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic;" "

Look Einstein, what the swearing in of the US army is or is not does not form a standard of looking at the role of the military in every nation state, regardless of the fact that you worship the US elite. Please find me ONE authoritative source from contemporary history and that is a challenge where the role of the US military is defined as detecting violations of the constitution by politicians and then mobilizing for action, I ask for JUST ONE.

Further, this oath does not at all mean that the US military will meddle in political affairs once the politicians violate the constitution (as they do and are doing periodically) neither does it mean that when the politicians do adjustments to enhance or diminsh terms, this military will attack them.

The role that you were assigning to the military opens a pathway for military meddling in political affairs and leads to military dictatorship. It is neither the job of the military to interpret the constitution, nor to judge whether it has been violated or not. Its job is to stay in the barracks and defend the country against external aggression PERIOD.

There, you're outsmarted and fckd up again and you thought you had scored a big a$$ point. Pathetic fool.

tahmed writes "masadi: After responding to your post #41 below, I notice there are two more posts from you commenting on what I wrote. I didnt read them because I am not going to waste more time with you. "

Of course you wont because you are stumped! Doing your "Lakeer ka fakeer" argument about the military and the constitution didn't get you anywhere now did it. Pathetic cowards and worshippers of the West like you, are what the Quran describes as "dogs"- Zeemax will add the rest of the discription given in the analogy presented in that Quranic verse...

IN addition look at how the oath of the US military has changed through its history, no "oath" can therefore be taken as a definition of the role of the military in a democratic society, let alone the world. As C. Wright Mills correctly commented the role of the military in the US has been greatly enhanced post ww2, as the military definition of reality took hold in the US political economy, the higher military men have established a firm hold within the power elite, they move between the political directorate and heading corporations to becomming president. Therefore regardless of any oath, where "Constitution" is mentioned only symbolically, no US military has ever attacked any politician, let alone the commander in chief for violating the constitution, though this symbolism itself reveals the pathway to political interference by the US military and the oath has varied througout history. Thus tahmed doesn't have a clue about what the role of the military is, all he knows is that his gods, who sloganeer democracy, democracy have a military that talks about the constitution in its oath and therefore every military must have a role of defending the constitution. No, the military institutions ONLY role is to stay in the barracks and defend the country agianst external aggression, period.

In #76, about tahmed "Pathetic cowards and worshippers of the West like you, are what the Quran describes as "dogs"- Zeemax will add the rest of the discription given in the analogy presented in that Quranic verse..."

(Quran 7:175-176)

7:176 If it had been Our will, We should have elevated him with Our signs; but he inclined to the earth, and followed his own vain desires. His similitude is that of a dog: if you attack him, he lolls out his tongue, or if you leave him alone, he (still) lolls out his tongue. That is the similitude of those who reject Our signs; So relate the story; perchance they may reflect.

masadi: I insist that between the two of us you are the bigger genius when you wrote The Army's job is to stay in the barracks and defend the country's borders from external aggression, period. .

I see you have quietly dropped this when presented with evidence to the contrary. That is progress I suppose.

Having dropped your absurd claim, you assign the following task to me Please find me ONE authoritative source from contemporary history and that is a challenge where the role of the US military is defined as detecting violations of the constitution by politicians and then mobilizing for action, I ask for JUST ONE.

The above assumes that I said the military can take a form of suo moto action to "detect violations" of the constitution. I never said that or implied that. So stick to what I wrote. There are no doubt valid issues of how and when the military (as per your above quote) can serve to protect the Constitution in Pakistan - but dont assume I have a view on that unless I express that.

Having made that clear (I hope), let me say that with respect to your example of a politican stepping over his constitutional authority, there are plenty of checks and balances available to Pakistan (as exemplified by the Supreme Court) that, if the Constitution was respected by the generals, would come into play to take care of the example you mention. Martial Law would in practice never take place if the generals felt bound to protect the Constitution.

With no further comments ... no anologies ... I hasten to add ....!

masadi: and write only one post in response to #81, not 5 posts as you have been doing. If you know what you are talking about, you should not need more than one post to respond to what I write.

Sattar, mazadi, zeemax & EVERYBODY:

This is the article when this miserable specimen called tsmithers32 licked his master's ass & felt proud that his Master dropped not one but two atomic bombs in the center of the most populated cities of Japan..

This arsehole is not with MUSLIMS..he is with the enemy!
Hope whenevr he rears his ugly head here he gets his snout rubbed & rubbed & rubbed till he forgets how to wag his tail & wiggle his behing whenever he smells his masters coming.

Just to reming everyone this baighairat got a thrashing from everyone then as well..hindus, muslims alike...Only the Ba Ba i Kanjaroon, now missing in action, the other enemy-lover tolerated this germ.

http://www.chowk.com/inte racts/9503/1/0/16#228036

http://www.chowk.com/ interacts/9503/1/0/16#228036

echboom: Writing anonymous abuses on chowk makes you feel good about yourself? And you need moral support from everyone in writing these abuses?

That says plenty about you, and nothing about me.

Now that tahmed has been stumped, clamoring for democracy while leaving an avenue open for the military to meddle in political affairs, just like the Turkish military and its constitution mongering in order to intefere in the political, he denies that he ever said it.

This is what the lying bas**** had said on this very thread, tahmed: "And the army's job is to protect the Constitution, and make sure that elected rulers dont then try to overstay their term..."

The army has no business meddling in any affairs of the state, its job has nothing to do with the constitution, its interpretation or punishing the violaters of it, its job is to stay in the barracks, leave internal law enforcement to the police, and in the US be subservient to the commander in cheif and have no say on his term in office, while defending the country from external aggression PERIOD.

Regarding the 5 posts they did not deal with the same issue, the couple or so that did were meant not for my understanding of the issue but for enhancing my case, and so that dumb fcuks like you don't get away with slogans of democracy garbed up with legitimation for military dictatorship

Tahmed Regarding the example, whether its democracy, you loll out your tongue in jubilation and whether its dictatorship you still loll out your tongue in jubilation, not knowing what will benefit and what will harm and ignorning all facts of the reality, you cling to your desire to worship the US elite, you remain a miserable dog...There, three more posts, and I sure and hell know what I'm talking about

In #89 read "There, three more posts, and I sure and hell know what I'm talking about " as

There, three more posts, and I sure as hell know what I'm talking about

--- Four posts..

#88 Posted by masadi,

With all due respect to tahmed32 sahib, he still needs to answer my question that while enthusiastically supporting the democracy movement in Pakistan, which political party will he vote for once his wishes come true?

tahmed writes "That says plenty about you, and nothing about me"

Yes it says a lot about echo, it says that he understands that you are a miserable fcuk who calls for the death and destruction of Muslims and poor folk around the globe while sloganeering about democracy and human rights and trying to legitimize the higher barbarism of the US elite. IT says a lot about echo, as a defender of the oppressed against the tyranny of hypocrites and sell outs like you who support not only this new colonization but the old barbaric colonization of the past. Your kind are the worst among humanity. Your kind will get what is coming to them soon enough...

Masadi:88
WELL the biggest jootaa (Chhitar size 20) on his face was from alephnull, which this pea-brain could not even understand..( see his howlingly clownish reply at 66).

Alephnull's post# 65 Joota is here again for this slave to savour:
===========================================================
Alephnull: 65

tahmed32 #18
{{And the army's job is to protect the Constitution, and make sure that elected rulers dont then try to overstay their term.}}

and #59

{{What I stated as being the proper role of the armed forces (i.e. to defend the Constitution, not overthrow it) is in fact part of the generally accepted role of the armed forces in any country!!}}

Amen to that pair of posts, Janaab Tahmed! Thank you for that stunning exhibition of the military (OK, military-descended) mind in action! What a crying shame that some bloody civilians just won’t get the point :-(.
============================================================
and then , as in this joke, the baighairat asks the one who uses the jootaa on him :" Darling, when will you be back?"[ reply:#66]
============================================================
AlephN ull:65
If you, or anyone else, have heard this joke before then you might enjoy this a bit more "in-context"

This thief who in the dead of night had broken into this house
was busy picking up his loot when he tripped and was caught by the man sleeping there.

Once caught, the thief pleaded for mercy..he would be let go if he (the thief) would do a lube job on the owner.

Well, as you can imagine , the thief did find it a bit disgusting but still not too
harsh a punishment..especially when he was also allowed to take the loot.

Once the thief was done with the reaming ,as if dreaming , the man from under him, very coquettishly inquired : " Darling! when will you be back again".
____________________________________________________________
Can you, or others, spot some context here?

#92 Posted by masadi:


"..whether its democracy, you loll out your tongue in jubilation and whether its dictatorship you still loll out your tongue in jubilation, not knowing what will benefit and what will harm and ignorning all facts of the reality.."

I know a fair number of chowk interactors who fit the above description. So why are you singling out tahmed sahib?

I am simply amazed ... everyone seems to be against tahmed ... Indians, Pakistanis, ... Liberaloon, Funduloon!

But there must be something very good in him ... otherwise, he would just have been ignored.

Anyway, tahmed sahib ... I am with you (if it counts at all). You are a good man.

masadi #92 I told you to stick to one post, so I will ignore the rest as before and respond to this one.
You start by calling me a " miserable fcuk". Very good. I dont need to read the rest.

Now go back and write 5 more posts. echoboom will no doubt be very pleased and write another lengthy, abusive post. You can then both pat each other on the back.

GT #94 Greetings. And thanks for the vote of confidence. :-)

zeemax: I realize you find it impossible to believe that one can believe in democracy, and yet remain independant of any party affiliation. Rest assured there is no shortage of such people. Why do you think I should commit to voting for one party or another at this stage in Pakistan when it is not even clear how each party will behave in the critical months ahead with respect to the constitutional issues facing Pakistan?

GT "But there must be something very good in him ... otherwise, he would just have been ignored."

Illogical reasoning at its best.

The guy, tahmed is an enemy of humanity, he supports, without condition the US elite in any and every war they start, in any and every policy they adopt. When the Lebanese are being butchered aimlessly by Israel he supports it, when Iraq is being destroyed by the Americans, he supported it, he excuses US subversion of democracy in Pakistan and then sloganeers about democracy....This guy tempts me to abandon all civilty and.... nevermind.

#95 tahmed, don't try to cover up the fact that you were talking nonsense about the role of the military, in fact you were supporting things that inevitably lead to military dictatorship of the Pakistan or the Turkey variety. Get an education, maybe then you can read through the entire post.

zeemax: and btw, you seem to have decided to vote for some party. Let me ask you: Which party is it, and why are you so confident as to commit to voting for it at this early stage?

Tahmed writes "Why do you think I should commit to voting for one party or another at this stage in Pakistan when it is not even clear how each party will behave in the critical months ahead with respect to the constitutional issues facing Pakistan?"

More lies and banal slogans. Please explain to us what "Constitutional issues" you are talking about and how you would like them resolved. Just sloganeering about the constitution wont do

masadi: after piling this board with one abusive post addressed to me after another, making accusing me of everything you can think of including calling me an "enemy of humanity", you turn around and ask Please explain to us what "Constitutional issues" you are talking about and how you would like them resolved. ? as if all your earlier posts were for nothing!!

I am sorry. I cant stop you from abusing me, but I can refuse to engage in discussion with you. Have a nice day.

#101, of course you are going to evade, because you don't have a damn clue about what you sloganeer, not a clue. Just like your masters use the "democracy" slogan, you are using the "constitution" slogan to rally around the group your masters want as a stop gap arrangement. Go to hell fool, you think I am interested in discussing things with you? After over a year of discussions, I know how that sick mind of yours works. No need for any further discussions, but I will keep busting your posts so that the others on here can see through your hypocritical, US worshipping veil of contrived sincerity. Now run along...

-------

Here is an article I came across, nice history lesson for those who are saying that the military had nothing to do with the SC decision:

-------

Human Rights Activist Traces the History of a Judiciary Ignores Law in Favor of 'Necessity'


By Baseer Naveed

A retired senior judge recently told of an incident that reveals the contempt with which Pakistan's army holds the judiciary. Justice Nasir Aslam Zahid, who had served on the Supreme Court and had been Chief Justice of Sindh, told nationwide Geo TV on June 4 that when the Supreme Court judges went to take their oath of off