Science and the Islamic world --- The quest for rapprochement

Great article as always Dr. Hoodbhoy

I see from table 1 that India *seems* to be doing well in terms of number of papers and citations.

However, I suspect that a majority of the papers are in poorly refereed journals.

The Indian scientific and technological educational system is one where there are a few islands of excellence in a vast ocean of mediocrity. Even the few excellent institutions are also geared towards producing high quality undergraduates or at the most masters students who can feed the needs of the IT industry machine or other growth sectors requiring technical graduates such as manufacturing and pharma. There are very few high quality research groups or research institutions. Except for TIFR, IISc, Chennai Math Institute and a few others the situation is actually quite bleak. The situation is a little rescued by the recent emergence of a number of industry sponsored research labs such as Microsoft research, IBM, GM and a raft of native Indian industry labs. Some of these are doing good work in formal and / or in advanced industrial research areas such as work on new material and in formal verification of software.

Part of the problem which I think you mentioned in another article you wrote after a visit to India is that the primary and secondary educational systems that lay the foundations from which researchers emerge is not conducive to creative problem solving but to earning marks in highly structured, highly predictable exam systems. The latter are geared towards creating memory machines who can replicate word for word what they have been taught.

It is however encouraging that at long last the current government has woken up to reworking the foundations so that in 10-15 years we may see a new dynamic emerging

Here's a tale of two Pakistani self-haters and defeatists who enjoy every moment of hating themselves and their country: Dr. Pervaiz Hoodbhoy and Asma Jahangir.
Whenever there is a writing project in any newspaper anywhere in the world where they want to bash Pakistan using a Pakistani name, they call one man in Islamabad: Dr. Hoodbhoy. He spews more venom against Pakistan than Hamid Karzai and Bal Thackery - an Indian Hindu terrorist - combined.
Asma Jahangir, another defeatist who went to India to shake the hands of Narendar Modi, the killer of 2500 Indian Muslims, has just volunteered to Hindustan Times to confirm that Mumbai terror was a Pakistani conspiracy [see below].
Here's a letter sent by a Pakistani young man to Dr. Pervaiz Hoodbhoy, a Pakistani self-hater, and received no reply. And then watch Asma Jahangir's video.
Recommendation: We need to start a witch-hunt in Pakistan to cleanse our academia and public life of such self-haters and defeatists who poison the minds of young Pakistanis about their homeland. Such academics and human rights activists should not be allowed to hide behind the freedom of expression.
TO: Dr. Pervaiz A. Hoodbhoy
Professor and Chairman
Physic Department
Quaid-e-Azam University,
Islamabad.
E-mail: hoodb...@lns.mit.edu

NATION WILL NEVER FORGIVE YOU

Dear Dr Pervaiz Hoodbhoy Sahib,

I have been reading your articles and research reports and watching your interviews on different TV channels on different issues. I have tried to go through your articles again and again to satisfy myself that whatsoever you are speaking in the name of freedom of speech is just an ordinary criticism and could be a difference of opinion.
But I regret to say that I am unable to do so. In dozens of your articles and interviews you have never ever said a single positive thing about Pakistan and have always tried to portray a false picture of Pakistan, according to which Pakistan is a failed state. Whether it's the issue of extremism, or Pakistan's nuclear assets, or Pak-India relations, or if there is an issue of western and Indian allegations, you have always come up with your nasty ideas to prove to the world community that whatever the enemies of Pakistan are saying, you are more than happy to say it from them, using a Pakistani identity, which is an act for which you feel no shame.

I am not sure if Pakistanis have seen your massive one-man campaign against Pakistan where you have alleged that we are not capable of retaining our nuclear assets. Or, now, after the Mumbai attacks, when even the cheapest of Pakistani politicians have shown some kind of patriotism and unity for the sake of Pakistan, at this crucial time again you are trying to prove what the enemies of Pakistan are trying to do. I fail to understand what motivates you except gaining popularity in West or even in India.

India is a so-called democracy where low caste Hindus, Christians and Muslims are burned alive [a ritual unique to India, doesn't happen anywhere else], where Hindu extremists are in the government, where groups like Bajrang Dal are trained in Indian Army schools. But India seems like Switzerland after reading one of your articles on India, especially the one you wrote recently after a visit to India. India's terrorist and rogue intelligence agency, RAW, which is funding and supporting separatist movements in our tribal belt and in Balochistan, continues to be an untouchable issue for you. What really is important for you is to put all your efforts toward portraying a negative Pakistan.

I give you an example from the history which you will find self explanatory in reference to our current scenario.

I am not sure if our enemies will impose a war on Pakistan or not but at this crucial stage all your efforts to distort Pakistan's image is not going to remain unnoticed and the nation will never forgive you for what you have done.

Wassalam.

Waqas Ahmed
Muscat, Sultanate of Oman

Re: # 593

Hi,

I agree. Most religious books including Bible and some of the Smrities are books that have hate verses.

The difference between muslims world and the rest of the followers of other faiths is that muslims seem to believe in each and every verse from Quran or even Hadith. But this is not true of modern day Christians or Hindus who do not flich an eye is rejecting some regresive part of their tradition-

the same is not true of muslim. Most of them remain apologetic about the hate verses which have spurred terrorism all over the world .

I think so the first task of all universities should be to protect freedom of expression. In Pakistani university campuses there should not be any mosques. It is okay to not to have book stores because there are always libraries which students can use.

During examination season some libraries can be opened 24 hours and at least one reading room in campus should be open at least from dawn to midnight (if not 24 hours) all 7 days a week. Such reading room may have light reading materials also and a very truncated collection of most popular academic books and newspapers. That way serious archival functions (if any) are kept away from browsing crowd.

In India (and I am sure in Pakistan also) there is no public library system to speak of. Many uprooted university graduates are forced to use local university libraries to keep their professional knowledge current. This too is restricted. I have been denied entry into IIT,Kgp and IIT,Bombay sometime.

If you are a university graduate then you should be issued a letter of reference or a Photo-ID to permit willing librarians of local universities to let you use material at their reading rooms. Ideally the uprooted academics who want to keep in touch with their fields should be allowed some borrowing privileges from non-archival collections of university libraries.

Although I have not been able to verify following story about Edwin Land who invented Polaroid camera I am writing it anyways. It is said that he made major portions of his research by gaining clandestine access to the university laboratory.

When a student in university he would become easily distracted by an idea that happened to occur to him and then neglect his regular study to pursue that idea. His wife used to prod him to solve quizzes he was to hand in to his professor and then she would write out the answers and give them to professor.

If "clandestine lab work" story is correct then that is clear indication of heaven in which he lived. Such heaven unfortunately for our scientists can see in their dreams only.

"yeah...post #436 where prophet tahmed(pbuh) claims to have come clean isn't by the prophet anyway..post 435 is but it refers to some other post... "

it is #456 where crazy mullah has audacity to threaten with nuclear holocaust. His Point #2 is as follows:

"2. Indians have every practical reason to seek good relations with Pakistan - militarily, Pakistan has the means to cause a nuclear holocaust in the sub-continent if it came to an existential threat; strategically, India has no choice but to have good relations Pakistan in order to establish links of its growing economy with the middle east (as in case of the gas pipeline) and central asia (e.g. road trade with Afghanistan and even, later, with China via silk route); and to compete in the global marketplace, it is in the Indian interest to have the world see South Asia as a region of peace where investors need not fear future wars."

[India has no choice but to have good relations Pakistan]

yani ke kashmiri khilona tumko chahiye hi chahiye varna tum udham machate hi rahoge. to phir saf saf kyun nahin kahte. kashmir dena padega eisa bolo na. kya mid-east, kya silk routes? India's economic juggernaut is unstoppable. chahe pakistan kitna bhi misbehave karle. nuksan paskitan ka hi hei.

yeah...post #436 where prophet tahmed(pbuh) claims to have come clean isn't by the prophet anyway..post 435 is but it refers to some other post...

tahmed saheb:

You have made dozens of references to "your" post#436. Have you clicked on post#436?

next week, it'll be 60 years since independence


India: confident democracy, booming economy, education system recognized by the world, IT industry

Pakiland: Rice had to call mushy at 2am to stop him declaring an emergency, government making up numbers to boost the GDP, Paki army bombing it's own citizens and using white phosphorus against them...world renowned education system(madrassahs)...IT(Islamic Terrorism) boom...

#603 by tahmed32

Actually, given the economic and military realities underlying India-Pakistan relations in point #2 of my post #436, any responsible Indian would give two hoots - and more - about peace and stability within Pakistan. If they are interested in the interests of people in India, i.e., rather than in merely stoking their own tender egos and insecurities.

India has negligible trade with Pakistan yet its economy is growing at a furious pace. As for military power, even during the Kargil war, India chose not to attack Paki territory despite having a valid reason to do so, so why do you even entertain the thought that India has eyes on Pakistan? As for egos and insecurities, the fact that you refer to Pakistan's military power and nuclear assets at every given opportunity, even when the discussion is far removed from the subject betrays your own insecurity and paranoia.

Read point 1 of my post #436 on the the realities of Pakistan that thousands of Indians saw for themselves when they actually visited Pakistan. How does what you say above jive with the realities I present there?

Are you denying that there exist Chanda boxes where Pakis make contributions to the Jihad against Indian forces in Kashmir? Are you denying that Pakistan arms and trains Kashmiri terrorists who carry out terrorist acts in India? So why should India be swayed by the experiences of a few Indians who visited Pakistan?

#456 Posted by tahmed32


[1. The warm welcome given to Indians visiting Pakistan. This came as a surprise to many Indians who visited Pakistan in large numbers a couple of years ago to watch the test matches. Cab drivers refused to accept payment for their services, crowds applauded Indian players when they scored (and the only person booed in Lahore was a local politician), Indians reported being treated in a more friendly and respectful manner by Pakistani police than their own Indian police ever did. No one, not even Islamist parties, attacked any of the thousands of Indians (or idol-worshippers, as you have been referring to yourself) who came to Pakistan then. Sikhs visiting Pakistan for far longer have always known this basic friendly nature of the average Pakistani. ]

That's no good, if you also support terrorists in Kashmir.


[2. Indians have every practical reason to seek good relations with Pakistan - militarily, Pakistan has the means to cause a nuclear holocaust in the sub-continent if it came to an existential threat;]


This is idiotic logic. Why is "bad relations" being equated to an "existential threat"? India can have AS MUCH bad relations with Pakiland AS LONG as it likes. What is Pakiland going to do? In fact, I hope India continues to give a cold shoulder to Pakiland for the foreseeable future.


[strategically, India has no choice but to have good relations Pakistan in order to establish links of its growing economy with the middle east (as in case of the gas pipeline) and central asia (e.g. road trade with Afghanistan and even, later, with China via silk route); and to compete in the global marketplace, it is in the Indian interest to have the world see South Asia as a region of peace where investors need not fear future wars.]

India DOES NOT HAVE TO trade with the central asian countries. And even if it did, it could use routes OTHER THAN the ones through Pakiland.

India can trade with China using MANY OTHER routes other than routes through Pakiland. And a lot of the Silk Route is OUTSIDE of Pakiland.

Whenever Muslims are involved, there will be no peace, in any case.


[So, put two and two together - Pakistanis are not the bloodthirsty idol-breakers that individual like Jay Thakeray and Ajeya and so many others on chowk try to portray them (as did those from whom you got this impression before coming to chowk). They are normal people, struggling today to gain their freedom from a power-hungry general and his fascist allies. ]

Then WHY are their Paki textbooks the way they are? If one looks through the thousand years of Muslim rulers in India, one would think Hindus have been the victims - not the other way around.



[Today is the time for Indians to stand up and be counted as being supporters of freedom for Pakistan, rather than to seek to demonize them by equating them with the worst of the fascists they are in facting struggling against. I have no doubt that Pakistanis will long remember who stood by them, and who stood aside and merely enjoyed their predicament, during these historic days in Pakistan. ]

I think Islam's nature is not going to change. It is the same in EVERY country, Hindu or no Hindu. It has been the SAME throughout history. I think now is the time for Hindus to be alert and vigilant against the coming deluge of Islamic activity.

Masadi wrote:

"There is no conflict here with the scientific methodology, as there is absolutley no conflict between religion and science, according to the Quran which invites people to use it to arrive at the truth, and then "after the fact" confirm the Quran's statements."

The scientific methodology means all facts are subject to scrutiny. Science is not facts known at one point of time. Science is its method. Facts are its bye-products. In that method all facts are ephmeral and subject to suspicion and revision. Before a revision can be made new facts should be found. And before one embarks on a mission to find new facts a scientist should be allowed to bring into his mind a doubt about old facts or old interpretations. And he should be allowed to express his doubts without his head being chopped off. In science there are no last prophets, there no theory which not a "work in progress". There is no theory which is complete and therefore above question.

Can you convincingly argue that this is the case in case of Islam? In Islam there is conflict between religion and science because religion is presented as ready made theory which is complete in every respect and which should not be questioned.

If the Quran invites people to use it to arrive at the truth and then enjoins upon such qusi-scientists to confirm the Quran's statements only then where is the freedom to bring doubt about Quran and freedom to express it in so many words, and that "not confirming" and refutation of its statements is not allowed (in other words, Quran cannot be subject to scrutiny, it is off limits, untouchable) under the pain of threat of death, then Quran cannot be basis of science.

#614 Posted by tahmed32 on August 9, 2007 2:47:50 pm


when you try to paint Pakistanis as terrorists



pray tell. why were pakis the first among the people required to register after 9/11? Isn't it because pakis are considered by the GOTUS to be most likely to be terrorists?

why is the FBI checking passport information at exit points at paki airports?

why are pakis subject to extra scrutiny when they land at US airports..

pakis come pre-painted..there's no need to paint anything on them..

giani/subhashjoshi/channai/arjun: The truth is there in #436 to which I keep directing your attention. Only giani has chosen to comment on it and been honest enough to acknowledge that he cannot argue with the facts I presented. The rest of you are merely beating around the bush, trying to be clever.

And the implication of the reality as presented in #436 is also inescapable: when you try to paint Pakistanis as terrorists, this serves no purpose other than to stoke your own personal insecurities - since the Indian interest is not in ridiculing Pakistan (which is there, and is going to be there stronger than ever, regardless of what you wish) or Pakistanis, but in being seen as being on the side of the Pakistani people.

Bush understood that today when he called for free and fair elections in Pakistan a couple of days after Musharraf announced his intention to have unfree and unfair elections (i.e. to get rubber stamped for another 5 years in uniform by the current assembly).

And giani #612: You express surprise that (unlike the way all of you came running to poor arjun's aid), I dont need moral support from anyone when I write. All I am concerned about is that what I write makes sense.

Cheers. God bless you merry gentlemen of India. :-)

Boriwilli,

you got that right. you are surely related to us!!! You see you are second person to have called me a moron. The first one was my dad. He use to say giani you moron stop chasing boriwilli's mom, she is your sister. Alas, he was a bit late. You were already on the way

Re: # 610

Subhash,

I do not think Tahmed has anything to say. Unfortunately, he seems to be a victim of the herd mentality whereby any perceived ill towards muslims is blown out of proportion but there is an absolute silence when they are busy blowing themseleves and other people up.

I suprised to see that people like YLH, echo, zeemax etc have just disappeared leaving Tahmed as the lone torch bearer. I guess truth and reality hurts

Pakistan weighs state of emergency
Musharraf cancels trip to Afghanistan. He is to convene his Cabinet and other senior officials today to discuss the step.
By Laura King
August 9, 2007


President Pervez Musharraf, who for months has been under enormous domestic political pressure to step aside or give up his role as army chief, was considering imposing a state of emergency, news reports and senior Pakistani officials said early today.

Musharraf, considered a key U.S. ally, was to convene his Cabinet and other senior officials later today to discuss the step, which would give his government wide-ranging powers, including the ability to restrict opposition political activities, postpone elections and dissolve parliament.

Political opponents expressed deep concern over the prospective move, reports of which came hours after Musharraf abruptly canceled a scheduled trip to the Afghan capital, Kabul, where he was to have taken part in a meeting aimed at combating the presence of insurgents in the tribal belt that straddles the Afghan-Pakistani border.

An emergency declaration would mark a dramatic escalation in the political turmoil that has gripped Pakistan over the last five months, beginning with Musharraf's attempt in March to oust the independent-minded chief justice, Iftikhar Mohammed Chaudhry.

Heightened instability in Pakistan would have repercussions far beyond its borders. The U.S. says Musharraf has been a crucial ally against Taliban and Al Qaeda militants in the wake of the Sept. 11 attacks.

At the same time, the Bush administration has been pressing the Pakistani leader hard to deprive the insurgents of sanctuary in the rugged, remote borderlands, particularly after last month's National Intelligence Estimate said Islamic militants had been able to regroup and rearm themselves, using Pakistan's frontier zone as a base.

Musharraf, who seized power nearly eight years ago in a coup, has seen his popularity plunge to an all-time low amid widespread dissatisfaction over his plans to continue as president while retaining his post as the chief of Pakistan's powerful military.

Chaudhry, who was reinstated by the Supreme Court last month, presents a potential impediment to Musharraf's plans to have the outgoing parliament that he controls elect him to another five-year term as president.

The high court today was scheduled to hear an appeal by former Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif, who was overthrown by Musharraf in 1999 and then exiled. Sharif, like former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto, who also is living in exile, has said he wants to return to Pakistan to contest parliamentary elections to take place by early 2008.

Musharraf has declared he will not allow their return.

Two senior Pakistani officials, speaking on condition of anonymity and without providing details, said the emergency measure was being weighed because of Pakistan's deteriorating security situation. Pakistan's minister of state for information, Tariq Azim Khan, speaking to the Associated Press, cited "external and internal threats" facing the country.

Pakistan has been angry over official and unofficial suggestions by U.S. politicians that American forces unilaterally strike Al Qaeda figures believed to be taking shelter in Pakistan's tribal lands if Musharraf's government fails to do so.

Pakistan, which is in the midst of a major military offensive against militants in the semiautonomous border region, said any such U.S. action would violate its sovereignty.

The country in recent weeks has been plagued by suicide bombings and other attacks by Islamic militants angry over the storming of a radical mosque in the capital nearly a month ago. More than 100 people died in the raid by government forces on the Red Mosque, and at least another 250 have been killed in suicide attacks and fighting since then.

Pakistan reinforced its troop presence in the tribal areas, and a 9-month-old truce with militants in volatile North Waziristan broke down.

Musharraf's opponents questioned whether the level of violence alone was sufficient to justify an emergency declaration, suggesting his motives might be political. Bhutto, who has been in talks with Musharraf about a potential power-sharing arrangement, told Pakistan's GEO television from New York that a state of emergency would be "a negative step for the restoration of democracy."

The Bush administration was apparently caught off-guard by Musharraf's sudden announcement Wednesday that he would not attend a traditional council, or jirga, in the Afghan capital. He was to have opened the gathering today with the Afghan president, Hamid Karzai.

Musharraf said he was sending his prime minister, Shaukat Aziz, in his stead because he had other engagements in Islamabad, the capital.

--

laura.king@latimes.com

Special correspondent Mubashir Zaidi in Islamabad contributed to this report.